Starting a True Celto-Germanic Heathen org.

[Baron Samedi]

I have given this a lot of thought..... Negating another major portion of one's ancestry is despicable, especially if the two of them fit together like two pieces of a puzzle, just one is colored different from another.

There is no reason why a Celto-Germanic union could not emerge and be made into a realistic faith similar to modern day Germanic heathenry.

A lot of research would be involved, personal ancestry-wise, along with the differing Celtic nations and their belief structures. Diversity would be part of it due to the tribal diversities of the Celtic tribes themselves (some may feel more affinity towards Continental Celts, like the Belgae or the Gauls.... Others Britons, Irish, etc).

I for one am making it official, here on the great Apricity forum, that I am 100% behind this endeavor if several others would like to pursue it.

Hail Arminius as well as Boudicca!

[Psychonaut]

You know I agree. :thumb001:

I think a good place to start would be with a list of PIE deities and mapping which Germanic and Celtic deities stem from the same source.

[Baron Samedi]

Anyone else interested here? Comments?

[Skandi]

I'm not exactly sure what you are sugesting here? mixing celtic and heathen religions? or trying to form a celtic only group? If your trying to marry up the many different Celtic gods, good luck and have fun! I would be surprised if someone hasn't attempted it already. but if your thinking of mixing the two;
I'm not totally conviced that you could mesh the two acceptably, despite there being some similarities there are also many differences, I think most people pick the path that feels right to them, neither path excludes the posibility of the others existance.

[Sigurd]

If people are of mixed Celtic and Germanic origin and wish to honour both sets of gods of their ancestors, even have a similar pull towards them - who says that they cannot worship each of them as private persons, even as members of an org, as long as they understand that the org is primarily concerned with one of them.

However, creating an organisation which honours both at the same time I understand to be unrealistic. If you wish to honour both, then there is a place and time to honour each of them, respectively. That which is eventually intended as a unifying idea will soon become divisive as members of the same hearth/kindred fight over who can attend which ritual. :rolleyes:

Alternatively if they are mixed together then either lose their distinctive characteristics. If I meet a Celtic Heathen then I may well consider him Folk and converse with him about it all, but I would be careful about celebrating Blot with him. Even though Celtics and Germanics likely split late and even though let's say Taranis and Thor are quite similar, a ritual to their honour should honour each deity fully, not either of them halfway. Such umbrella organisations are eventually doomed to fail.

I know that in the OR we have some members with mixed Celtic and Germanic roots who wish to honour both of their ancestors in Folkish tradition. From what I gather, we respect their right to do that, but understand that they do so as private persons, not directly as a Ritesman/-woman. One of our chief activists in fact, honours both her Celtic and Germanic roots, yet when celebrating Blot to Germanic gods, she will blot to them alone.

In the OR, we do accept other European folk-groups as Folk much like your cousins may not be members of your immediate core family but definitely of your extended family. On the other hand, we will not adopt Celtic, Hellenic, Slavic, Baltic or Fennic practices, that is clearly not our tradition.

Funnily enough, we've been called "Folkish universialists" for the former approach and "über Folkish divisionalists" for the latter approach. :coffee:

Anyway, I'm also curious what Aemma has to say about this topic. :)

[Vargtand]

Hmm, well I can't say I am to thrilled about the idea but I've been shook.. by New age and Wicca and their rootless picking of different religious practices.. in my mind I would think it to be best to stick to one religion or if the need to mix exists make it personal, but mixing Celtic and Germanic heathenry can be more damaging in the long run for both respective religions.

At least that is what I fear as the un-educated masses even today have a hard time distinguishing between the two... I feel it would be contra productive in a conservative sense and go the same path as multiculturalism will take us... to singularity without difference everything blending.

[Brynhild]

I Believe I've already put my views forward on such matters in other threads, so therefore I won't explain any further here.

I agree! :thumb001:

[Psychonaut]

I Believe I've already put my views forward on such matters in other threads, so therefore I won't explain any further here.

I agree! :thumb001:

Right, I put fourth my opinions on Celto-Germanicism in this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1105) thread too, and this one will, hopefully, be a bit more focused on actualizing some of the ideas presented in the previous one.

[Gooding]

It sounds like a great idea.How can it be applied?

[Aemma]

If people are of mixed Celtic and Germanic origin and wish to honour both sets of gods of their ancestors, even have a similar pull towards them - who says that they cannot worship each of them as private persons, even as members of an org, as long as they understand that the org is primarily concerned with one of them.

However, creating an organisation which honours both at the same time I understand to be unrealistic. If you wish to honour both, then there is a place and time to honour each of them, respectively. That which is eventually intended as a unifying idea will soon become divisive as members of the same hearth/kindred fight over who can attend which ritual. :rolleyes:

Alternatively if they are mixed together then either lose their distinctive characteristics. If I meet a Celtic Heathen then I may well consider him Folk and converse with him about it all, but I would be careful about celebrating Blot with him. Even though Celtics and Germanics likely split late and even though let's say Taranis and Thor are quite similar, a ritual to their honour should honour each deity fully, not either of them halfway. Such umbrella organisations are eventually doomed to fail.

I know that in the OR we have some members with mixed Celtic and Germanic roots who wish to honour both of their ancestors in Folkish tradition. From what I gather, we respect their right to do that, but understand that they do so as private persons, not directly as a Ritesman/-woman. One of our chief activists in fact, honours both her Celtic and Germanic roots, yet when celebrating Blot to Germanic gods, she will blot to them alone.

In the OR, we do accept other European folk-groups as Folk much like your cousins may not be members of your immediate core family but definitely of your extended family. On the other hand, we will not adopt Celtic, Hellenic, Slavic, Baltic or Fennic practices, that is clearly not our tradition.

Funnily enough, we've been called "Folkish universialists" for the former approach and "über Folkish divisionalists" for the latter approach. :coffee:

Anyway, I'm also curious what Aemma has to say about this topic. :)


My apologies for not having responded to this thread and your post in particular earlier Sigurd. Your post was just brought to my attention last night with thanks to Loki. :)

Great post btw and my thinking is pretty much in line with yours. Not that I don't think that a Celto-Germanic Heathen org proper would be a bad thing though. I do see a need for one and would support such an endeavour as well. Depending on its raison d'être it might be a good complement to the very fine org to which we both already belong: the OR. There is a reason why I'm a member of the Odinic Rite in that, though it relies heavily on a more Germanic mythology, it very much allows people of mixed heritage, such as myself, to fit in very well. There is no dissonance in being of mixed traditions and having particular attachments to other deities from other Folk groups while being a member of the OR. In fact, the beauty of the OR is its very focus on spirituality as opposed to religiosity. It readily acknowledges a Greater Folk organism and seeks to harness that collective energy in spirit and seeks to bring about social change through the very harnessing of this spiritual energy. For all of our other non-OR heathen brothers and sisters here, no, the OR is not New-Age-ish but has sought to interpret our Folk Sprituality in terms of a 21st century perspective. This implies a more au courant approach with respect to a reconstructed religion. It is far less based on technical and historically accurate reconstruction and more so focused on the organicity of Folk Spirituality. In a nutshell, that's the OR from my perspective. :) Having said this, membership in the OR does not preclude one from having a more culturally-deterministic wordview and living one's life by this. Mine happens to be quite Germanic in emphasis whereas some of our other members might prefer a more fluid mix and honour deities from other Folk pantheons as well. The bottom line is that our rituals are set however and seek to reach the Greater Folk Organism's Spirit via our collective energy found in the Folk Soul.

All of this to say that this wasn't meant as a gratuitous plug for the OR (really it wasn't :D) but I wanted to show that a less culturally-specific or time-specific org does and can exist. It all depends on what you aim to achieve by the formation of a new one. I'm looking forward to following this new org.'s developments. I think it something very exciting and very much in keeping with what The Apricity is all about...the active formation of initiatives that seek to promote and develop a cultural and ethnic awareness which will continue preservation efforts.

Cheers for now Sigurd and All!...Aemma

[Óttar]

I look at the state of modern paganism/heathenry today, and I sigh. I will say though that Steve McNallen from the Asatru Folk Assembly is an example of the kind of person who approaches European Indigenous religion with the right attitude. I am a huge supporter of scholarly research when approaching an indigenous tradition. Solemnity should also be a large element of ones approach to their gods. In this way, I am a proponent of reconstructionism. What is most disheartening is "fluffy-ism" within modern paganism which is an insult to the spirit of these traditions.

For example, I was watching a video on Arn Driaocht Fein ("Our own druidry", sorry my knowledge of Gaelic spelling is poor.) and here were two old biddies and a castrato using fluffy talk and invoking mother Earth, while dressed in tastelessly garish clothing.

The leader of this group also made a video where he states Winston Churchill was initiated into a "druid order" and therefore was a druid. The problem with this kind of attitude is all too clear. I don't know how much research he did, but if he even did the slightest bit, he would know that in ancient Celtic society, druids were taken seriously and one did not become one over night, but instead had to undergo training lasting a great many years. (Caesar in his Gallic Wars said it could take up to 20 years), not to mention no actual druid texts survive, and our knowledge of them is greatly impaired.

I think if one were to even approach honouring Celtic deities one should first develop at least a rudimentary knowledge of a Celtic tongue, and continue to study it. It does not help when a bunch of hippies dress up like Santa Claus at Stonehenge, speaking English not knowing what they're doing.

I myself have studied Hinduism since I was a child along with Classical Mythology. I have always found Greek and Roman deities to be more approachable (i.e. I can pronounce their names, I have connected with certain of their depictions in art... We know more about their cults etc.), not to mention Hinduism is a living tradition with 1 billion strong adherents.

I have recently taken up more of an interest in Celtic and Germanic deities. Being of mixed Celtic and Germanic heritage, there has always been an identity clash between the two. I can speak German, and my mother tongue is English, so I am more familiar with Germanic languages. I would readily jump at the opportunity to learn Irish, but there are not any groups in my area for beginners (in Boston of all places!), I would also like to learn some Welsh. I wish I could go back to school to focus specifically on learning many languages.

While I understand the importance of folk, the tradition should not become so stultified as to promote divisions of established kindreds lest pagans/heathens become like the Zoroastrian Parsis of India, an ancient community destined to die off soon because of stubborness and a pathological brand of ethno-centrism (which was contrary to Zoroaster's teachings as he believed Zartosht was a religion for the world.) In the Pagan Era, cults spread all over the world (just look at altars to Isis in Britain, Cybele in Gaul, Mithras throughout the Roman world.)