Which Y haplogroup did Alexander the Great belong to?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I said the location of a subclade can change.

What happens when a massive army conquers, travels, and explores through several countries over decades? What do the males do? Do they have sex with the locals? Do these begotten sons hold the genetic marker of the invaders? Yes they do…

Also ethnicity/race should not be confused with Y-haplogroup. If a bastard was left in India, who then interbred only with native East Indians for two thousand subsequent years then the subclade will appear indigenous over time even though its identifying marker is not indigenous! This is common sense.

If you're an outsider breeding with foreign women, in a foreign country, then the descendants will begin to resemble the native population over time. This process is prevented by small clusters of males who interbreed with females of their own ethnicity/race, hence the Persian Iranian r1a stock. Notice how you are focused on India, but not Iran? This demonstrates your own agenda, not anybody else. You aren't thinking broadly enough.

No r1a got spread in his time. R1a if anything was much more widespread, literally 1/4 of the world was covered in it.

[Unome]

ha so basically its COMPLETELY GONE FROM EUROPE except in GYPSIES.
Even if r1a were in a European gypsie (which it's not) then how does that discount anything stated? (It doesn't)

POI is correct; r1a was already well-spread even in the ancient era. However the Macedonian-Greek army spread it into new areas and also may have reasserted it in places it already was.

[Scholarios]

Even if r1a were in a European gypsie (which it's not) then how does that discount anything stated? (It doesn't)

POI is correct; r1a was already well-spread even in the ancient era. However the Macedonian-Greek army spread it into new areas and also may have reasserted it in places it already was.

Dude, you don't seem like a bad guy. But you probably know even less than Melonhead/Prisoner. Nothing you said has been substantiated in any way. I can only assume you are trolling, and I feel stupid for falling for it. Good day.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Scholiosis hilarious, take your medicine. You are obviously having an episode.

[OnceLord]

it makes no sense at all. If we look at the region he grew up and his forfathers, it is a dominated area of E-V13 and knowing that E-v13 was born in this region it could have been only that. 1800 years before Slavs came to the region so take way all Slavic carriers, the time & space of Alexander and his forfathers before him which is historically known natives to the area, the tales of northern barbarian mountain tribes sending and receiving gifts from one another leads only to E-V13

Modern frequencies =/= ancient frequencies

Besides, you are looking at modern north Greeks or Macedonians, who are (like all other European or Asian societies with a former hierarchical dynastic social system) an amalgamated hodgepodge of king and slave descendants.

Exactly the same way the Indo Euro Hittite elite must have been absorbed into the generic Anatolian pool.. or what, you think the Hittites (Indo Euros) had a 60-70% chance of being J2, G, J1 or E just because modern Turks are that? Literally arse-backwards thinking, LoL

Just look at all the ancient genetics so far and it is clear as day that Indo Euros had to have been mostly R1.. Since they were a hierarchical patriarchal bunch and practically all of Europe and Asia (west of China) became Indo Euro speaking, you're seriously telling me the odds of Alexander's tribe's originator not being R1 are low, just because modern Makedonis or north Greeks aren't? Lmao

They (ancient, not original, Indo Euros) contributed to us (modern mix-ups) rather than us being representative of them..

That's the main problem a lot of you guys denying the obvious

[Unome]

Nothing you said has been substantiated in any way.
You haven't substantiated your own claims…

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Dude, you don't seem like a bad guy. But you probably know even less than Melonhead/Prisoner. Nothing you said has been substantiated in any way. I can only assume you are trolling, and I feel stupid for falling for it. Good day.

First you said you knew nothing about r1a. Then you said no one knows what they are talking about, then you got pogressively crazier until you claimed that slavic raiders of the high seas colonized the entire agean :lol:

Nothing I said was unreasonable. Nothing Unome said was unreasonable though I don't agree with a lot of it. You're the one who keeps going into batshit troll areas just to stamp out any possibility alexander belongs to a 'white' clade.

He could be J2 I don't see how though. Theoretically he could be other crap as well. But I don't claim to know 100% for certain, I have to wonder that you can be so sure when so far we have only NW european-like DNA samples in ancient greece :lol:

[Hellenas]

http://www.paranoid.gr/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/prwtagwnistes-tainias-karate-kid-tote-twra-04.jpg

http://www.otherside.gr/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/prwtagwnistes-tainias-karate-kid-tote-twra-02.jpg

http://www.otherside.gr/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/prwtagwnistes-tainias-karate-kid-tote-twra-07.jpg

http://blog-imgs-62.fc2.com/a/2/c/a2cfuji/WZ.jpg

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Karate+kid+check+out+my+gaming+show+if+you+want_8b 9ca9_5353141.jpg

The fight never stops, SWARTHY POWER!!!

[Scholarios]

First you said you knew nothing about r1a. Then you said no one knows what they are talking about, then you got pogressively crazier until you claimed that slavic raiders of the high seas colonized the entire agean :lol:

Nothing I said was unreasonable. Nothing Unome said was unreasonable though I don't agree with a lot of it. You're the one who keeps going into batshit troll areas just to stamp out any possibility alexander belongs to a 'white' clade.

He could be J2 I don't see how though. Theoretically he could be other crap as well. But I don't claim to know 100% for certain, I have to wonder that you can be so sure when so far we have only NW european-like DNA samples in ancient greece :lol:


Basically, what you have said so far is all wrong. What this argument started with my question, very simple :" How can he be R1a?" Which about brought in your usual banter about whites , swarthies, etc. I am not even saying he is J2, I am saying, in what way can it be justified that he was R1a- and yours was basically "He was white" which is of course dumb, dumb, dumb.


As far as your basic claim "R1/R1A IS A WHITE CLADE" ETC. ETC. It's not even "wrong" so to speak, it's like saying APPLES TASTE PURPLE or something. Just doesn't compute to non-chimps.


Again, a refresher course of your stupidity so that you hopefully buzz off in humiliation: A countdown of your dumbest statements so you don't forget your position in this discussion:



A. Slav Invasions never happened. (historical chronicles, toponyms say otherwise)
B. There is no J2 in Crete (its around 30% in Crete and radiates from there)
C. North India has only 5% R1a (it has up to 40%)
D. No differentiation between I and R1a clades (different clades are associated with different historical and prehistoric movements)
E. j2 in Sicily from Arabs(studies show a differentiation between a north african derived portion of the island (6% at most) and a Greek portion (up to 30%)
F. Greek Macedonia has no or little genetic continuity, though it is more than 40% R1a and I clades, which according to you are the native "white" clades to the region. (makes my head spin three times and I pass out from the moron fumes!)
G. What else?


I guess G is your stubborn determination to talk about NW european dna samples in Greece, which basically means MTDNA that matches modern Cretans, Medeival Anatolians, and Prehistoric French, which means to you "WHITES CONQUERED SWARTHIES" or some such crap.

Let's be honest, the data means whatever you want it to mean.

[Scholarios]

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Karate+kid+check+out+my+gaming+show+if+you+want_8b 9ca9_5353141.jpg

The fight never stops, SWARTHY POWER!!!

Ralph Macchio is a modern Philopoemen.

But still, this doesn't even have to be about swarthy or not. He wants to drive the conversation to that, because deep down he knows how abstract and dumb that topic is- and he can drag everyone down with him and avoid talking real data and history. It's the subhuman way.

[Scholarios]

What is wrong with my views about physical anthropology?? I never said Greeks look fully Slavic, but that many do have an East European "Slavicized" vibe lacking in southern Italians and western Turks, and especially lacking in Cyprus. With the autosomal and y-dna evidence it'd be very unlikely for it to be any other way.

I have seen on 23andme a few southern Italians with I2 but they are all Apulian.

What's wrong with it?

Well, a couple of things. I'll probably kick myself for opening this can of worms.

First of all, the term "Slavicized" is absurd. If it were true, then the term should be "Hellenized-Slav" or something.

Second, you basically equate non-Pontids or non-Gracile Meds with "Slavic" look or something, when in fact Greeks if anything can look more Albanian(non-slavs with even less slavic clades than us) than Serb or Polish or whatever.

Third, you really are limited because you haven't been to these exact places. It's not your fault, but it is flawed severely.

Fourth, you fail to understand that these uses of physical anthropology are flawed from the start, especially in the way you use them. I understand it's just a fun thing and not serious, but we know now the effect of environment, diet, etc. on physiology. Coon even found pretty big differences between American Greeks and Greeks proper in regards to cephalic index, hair color, etc.

[Drawing-slim]

Modern frequencies =/= ancient frequencies

Besides, you are looking at modern north Greeks or Macedonians, who are (like all other European or Asian societies with a former hierarchical dynastic social system) an amalgamated hodgepodge of king and slave descendants.

Exactly the same way the Indo Euro Hittite elite must have been absorbed into the generic Anatolian pool.. or what, you think the Hittites (Indo Euros) had a 60-70% chance of being J2, G, J1 or E just because modern Turks are that? Literally arse-backwards thinking, LoL

Just look at all the ancient genetics so far and it is clear as day that Indo Euros had to have been mostly R1.. Since they were a hierarchical patriarchal bunch and practically all of Europe and Asia (west of China) became Indo Euro speaking, you're seriously telling me the odds of Alexander's tribe's originator not being R1 are low, just because modern Makedonis or north Greeks aren't? Lmao

They (ancient, not original, Indo Euros) contributed to us (modern mix-ups) rather than us being representative of them..

That's the main problem a lot of you guys denying the obviousR1b or E-v13then. I think I'm saying the same thing, that Alexander's Y-dna must come from Albanian mountain tribes, which is not the same as the modern day Macedonians.
But you're dead wrong assuming that ancient DNA does not = modern dna frequencies, specifically among mountain tribes it has to be the same.
For example Scotish highlanders and gheg highlanders should have the same genetic frequencies regarding Y-dna, from the acninet times to now, this should remain unchanged because the terrain in both regions is very limited to provide for growing native tribes let alone new settlers or conquerors which would never settle at these high peaks, why Ghegs and Scotish highlanders have only exported men to the world but never import.
Anyway, I honestly don't care what haplogroup he had but it only makes sense that he must have come from some old mountain tribes.
Plus if you see my profile my Y-Dna is posted, which clearly I have have no biased wishes or intentions.

[Scholarios]

Even if r1a were in a European gypsie (which it's not) then how does that discount anything stated? (It doesn't)

POI is correct; r1a was already well-spread even in the ancient era. However the Macedonian-Greek army spread it into new areas and also may have reasserted it in places it already was.


http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/10/hap.jpg

R1A UNITE

[Dianatomia]

The Ancient Macedonians were an exploding population at the time of Philip II's reforms. See, where this reasoning falls flat is that you can't say that Ancient Macedonians demographic numbers and region is small, but then say that R1a carried by them is 14% in Greece. (and that doesn't even include other Northern type clades like I which are an additional 15% in Greece but basically absent from South Italy) Actually, the lowest estimates for the population of Philip's Macedonia (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=NRQaBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=population+ancient+macedonia&source=bl&ots=wNaYCWtFpm&sig=PoX3Gbl6-fvNc2byC1ZUa7jghnU&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=v3ZJVfGTN6OrmAXk54HwAw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=population%20ancient%20macedonia&f=false)put it much much higher than even the most populated cities of South Greece.

It doesn´t matter whether it was higher than the most populated cities in Greece. A few hundred thousand? Let´s be serious. The Greek world around that time amounted to 6 million. To even suggest that Macedonians had a considerable impact on them is futile. Even if they had ´more´ R1a on average, the difference would be virtually undetected in other populations. Every last Macedonian would have to go to Sicily in order for them to make a noticeable difference on that island. The idea is that they had more than most Greeks. That´s all. After all, the Slavs or the Dorians are not the only ones in the game. The Thracians were their direct neighbors to the North and many suspect they had a lot of R1a.

It is very reasonable to suggest that a) there was some R1a in ancient Greece and b) there was probably more in the North c) there was more on the mainland that on the islands.

Don´t you find it remarkable that Asia Minor Greeks too have almost 8%.



Crete was also settled by Slavs. Hell, even in 626 we have Slav pirates ferrying Persian invaders (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=EL_VMQ_JhAEC&pg=PA199&lpg=PA199&dq=monoxyles+slavs&source=bl&ots=e9WouekPbN&sig=6zl3s2AJKN5uYH1PTtWIrHTtr6Q&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=xWxJVfDGBqLpmAX3x4DgAw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=monoxyles%20slavs&f=false)across the Bosporus in their wooden-log boats (must have been a sight)- which is notoriously treacherous pass. So Slavs got around by sea if they hugged the coast. Later they learned the sea technology from Byzantines and used it to raid the Aegean, along with Arabs: Speros Vyronis:


I can´t take this too seriously. To even suggest that Crete almost has similar Slavic impact as Greece is laughable. It is one thing to indicate that there was a Slav presence there. It is another thing to consider they settled it. It is remarkable to suggest they settled the island in almost similar numbers as the mainland.



It'd be a miracle if Myceneans had R1a*m458 though yet South Italy and Asia Minor lacked it.


First of all, Myceneans didn´t settle in Southern Italy. The Myceanan population thrived between 1650 and 1200 and it was centered on the mainland of Greece. South Italy =/= Myceneans. Greek migration to Magna Graecia started the 8th to 7th century BC. By then, it was another land inhabited by other non-Greek peoples, and it was colonized by Greeks many centuries after the Mycenean era.


agree- but when people say 'Alexander was probably R1a" I can smell a filthy agenda

Yes, but we should not cloud our judgement because of that. Claiming that R1a is Slavic as a counter argument is creating an agenda of your own.

[Scholarios]

It doesn´t matter whether it was higher than the most populated cities in Greece. A few hundred thousand? Let´s be serious. The Greek world around that time had 6-8 million. To even suggest that Macedonians had a considerable impact on them is futile. Even if they had ´more´ R1a on average, the difference would be virtually undetected in other populations. Every last Macedonian would have to go to Sicily in order for them to make a noticeable difference on that island. The idea is that they had more than most Greeks. That´s all. After all, the Slavs

Well if we must exclude Macedonians (the single most highly mobile group and probably the most influential Greek-speakers in history) from genetic observations, then we might as well exclude every set of Greeks. Excluding them is selective, I know. Sicily is not *just* a colony btw, it was essentially a Greek island until the middle ages. Basically, it's Crete until then. It received Dorians, Myceneans, and apparently Indo-Europeans- because the natives before the Greeks got there spoke Indo-European. The main difference: It didn't receive Slavs.


It is very reasonable to suggest that a) there was some R1a in ancient Greece and b) there was probably more in the North c) there was more on the mainland that on the islands.


Again, according to Underhill (2009 and 2014) the vast majority of it is a very specific clade with it's origins in Poland and Central Europe. Out of all the possible R1a clades Greece could have, don't you think it's strange that it happens to be that one? It would be reasonable to suggest, but it's even more reasonable to suggest that much or most of it is Medieval in origin.


Don´t you find it remarkable that Asia Minor Greeks too have almost 8%.


Not at all. Asia Minor Greeks are not some isolated population. They have also intermarried with mainlanders for a thousand years. Many of them come directly from the mainland. What's interesting is that Pontians have none of it. Add to that, Asia Minor Greeks do not exist anymore and finding one that is not mixed with other Greeks even recently is quite rare.




I can´t take this too seriously. To even suggest that Crete almost has similar Slavic impact as Greece is laughable. It is one thing to indicate that there was a Slav presence there. It is another thing to consider they settled it. It is remarkable to suggest they settled the island in almost similar numbers as the mainland.

They did settle it. Otherwise it wouldn't have towns named "Slavic Plain' and "Slavic Village" etc. etc. Phokas settled them. They also intermarried with Peloponnesians and who knows who else. They didnt "settle it in almost similar numbers as the mainland". R1a Slavs mixed with Greeks, became Hellenized, married other Greeks and transferred their ydna clade. This didn't happen over night. It took hundreds of years. I know it's hard to believe because the Slavic thing is a pretty big boogeyman for us, but look objectively with our new genetics technology and with historical sources. It's the simplest solution, even if we don't want it to be. Even looking at 23andme- it basically covers the last 500 years of genetics. My Arcadian side has 5th cousins in Kosovo, Croatia, Romania, FYROM, etc. And I have no known non-Greek relatives in the past 3 generations AFAIK!) People get around.





First of all, Myceneans didn´t settle in Southern Italy

That's not entirely true really. (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=un2GAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=greek+colonies+in+italy+mycenaeans&source=bl&ots=s3-jQ89jJ0&sig=Ff6_nL6f7zN0Iau6OsukTyMLUp0&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=f-5JVcQuoqGaBe7DgOgD&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=greek%20colonies%20in%20italy%20mycenaeans&f=false)







Yes, but we should not cloud our judgement because of that. Claiming that R1a is Slavic as a counter argument is creating an agenda of your own.


What's my agenda exactly? I am arguing against Northern influence in Greece, and basically you are arguing for it. This kind of argument is legendary from certain Greeks, so I don't think it's fair to call my pov an agenda. It just shows how convoluted the whole thing is. You and I both know the history of Macedonia and it's no secret why it has 20% r1a and 20% I. It aint from Dorians, thats for sure. Now trickle that out over the rest of Greece and you get the simplest explanation for the whole mess.

[Shqipez]

The whole region has been settled by proto-slavs and other group of people to think the r1a frequency was even as high as today is off the map.. there might of been some r1a in ancient balkans, no doubt, but this is different. people are forgetting clades/subclades. The R1b in the balkans for example is different from the west european one. Same with the R1a.

So the arguement ''He was blond haired so he must of been R1a'' is as pointless as an arguement can get. xD

haplogroups have nothing to do with looks unless you think these ''R1a'' ''ancient macedonians'' were recent immigrants from the north. xD

And then you try to claim the rest of haplogroups came with Slaves xD What you're really doing is stealing history. I don't really see what Alexander or ancient greeks have anything to do with Americans or Northern people or western european people regardless of what haplogroups they belong to... for example A lot of R1b in the balkans is ancient, and has nothing to do with West Europe... it came there a long time ago. Alexander was from the Balkans of ancient greece who's neighbors were Illyrians and Thracians. The only ancient balkanic languages that have survived today are Albanian and Greek. Somehow you're telling me South Slavs are Illyrians/Thracians who adopted Slavic languages MAGICALLY and Albanians are slaves who adopted thraco-illyrian language? xD Are you really this desperate to steal history?
:lol:

Where is all the cultural similarities with south slavs and Illyrians/thracians? There are more connections with Albanians and Greeks. all the mythology, customes etc. etc. If south slavs have some connections they have copied this from indigenous tribes obviously which they asimilated.

Are spartans now also NORDIC people? xD

I guess anything that has made a name for themselves will always be claimed by people.

So Kosovar Albanians with their 40% EV-13 and High J2 and R1b and low I2a (3%) and R1a are descendants from Slaves? xD


As Kurt said about Albanian highlanders, they seem to have low R1a and I2a compared to Greeks because they might of avoided those kind of migrations while Greeks absorbed them much more. Also a lot of people converted to Greek orthodox christianity and became Greeks. Orthodoxy has been the identity of Greek state and people for a long time so people were asimilated easier by coverting to Greek orthodoxy... the same thing happened with Serb Orthodoxy and Bulgarian orthodoxy, they asimilated all those E and J2 people through converting them.

[Hellenas]

you guys getting in fight for no reason.. this man live thousand and thousand year ago and you swear to eachother to prove useless point.. alex was great man but he lived back then... we need focus on now.. today...

Today Greece must join Russia, China and Middle East against Jew.S.A. and Jewropean Union. They have suck much of our blood, enough with them.

[Hellenas]

Take that into account also:

Haplogroup R1a, Its Subclades and Branches in Europe during the Last 9000 Years

"We found that the most ancient R1a sub- clades (R1a1-M198− and R1a1a-M198+/M417−) bearers of which currently live in Europe (the present day haplotypes are scattered between England and the Balkans) appeared in Europe at least 7300 ybp, and possibly 9000 ybp."

"By ~9000 ybp they arrived in the Balkans and spread westward over Europe and to the British Isles."

"Some known archaeological cultures in the Balkans and Central/Eastern Europe, dated 8000 - 7000 ybp (Bug-Dniester, Vinča, Starčevo, LBK, etc.), can be attributed, as least in part, to bearers of R1a."

"We do not know exactly where their common ancestor lived, since members of this branch are scattered in Europe from the Balkans to the British isles(Map 1). It may be that they are descendants of those R1a bearers who came to the Balkans ~9000 ybp at the European end of their migration route from Central Asia (Klyosov & Rozhanskii, 2012)."

https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=bLwAVJvaN-ey0AWZx4CQDg&gws_rd=ssl#q=R1a+in+balkans

[Scholarios]

Take that into account also:

Haplogroup R1a, Its Subclades and Branches in Europe during the Last 9000 Years

"We found that the most ancient R1a sub- clades (R1a1-M198− and R1a1a-M198+/M417−) bearers of which currently live in Europe (the present day haplotypes are scattered between England and the Balkans) appeared in Europe at least 7300 ybp, and possibly 9000 ybp."

"By ~9000 ybp they arrived in the Balkans and spread westward over Europe and to the British Isles."

"Some known archaeological cultures in the Balkans and Central/Eastern Europe, dated 8000 - 7000 ybp (Bug-Dniester, Vinča, Starčevo, LBK, etc.), can be attributed, as least in part, to bearers of R1a."

"We do not know exactly where their common ancestor lived, since members of this branch are scattered in Europe from the Balkans to the British isles(Map 1). It may be that they are descendants of those R1a bearers who came to the Balkans ~9000 ybp at the European end of their migration route from Central Asia (Klyosov & Rozhanskii, 2012)."

https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=bLwAVJvaN-ey0AWZx4CQDg&gws_rd=ssl#q=R1a+in+balkans



Sure, but that's the kind of vagueness that the so-called "nordicists" amateur-fascists in this case love. They just say " SEE- R1A WAS IN EUROPE 7000 YEARS AGO WHITE POWER" but it of course doesn't mean that it was in Greek Macedonia that long ago ( a tiny part may have been). I'll add again that though R1a and most I2 is mostly of recent northern origin (proto-slavs, possibly germanics) it's influence on the over all Greek genepool isn't at a one-to one ratio probably. Greek autosomal scores aren't really more than 11 % Eastern Euro. And even some of that is from Yamna maybe.

Basically, the calculators they use are wrong (as many amateurs have pointed out and use different ones). They assume that these movements are associated with Central Euros migrating to Russia and the Pontic Steppe during Neolithic. But the problem is that if so, the same clades should be in Scandinavia which was populated by those same central European farmers. Instead Scandinavia has totally separate clades of R1a and I. They should use germline mutation rates (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/em.2850250609/abstract) and get numbers about 1/3 of what they are currently getting.

[Shqipez]

Take that into account also:

Haplogroup R1a, Its Subclades and Branches in Europe during the Last 9000 Years

"We found that the most ancient R1a sub- clades (R1a1-M198− and R1a1a-M198+/M417−) bearers of which currently live in Europe (the present day haplotypes are scattered between England and the Balkans) appeared in Europe at least 7300 ybp, and possibly 9000 ybp."

"By ~9000 ybp they arrived in the Balkans and spread westward over Europe and to the British Isles."

"Some known archaeological cultures in the Balkans and Central/Eastern Europe, dated 8000 - 7000 ybp (Bug-Dniester, Vinča, Starčevo, LBK, etc.), can be attributed, as least in part, to bearers of R1a."

"We do not know exactly where their common ancestor lived, since members of this branch are scattered in Europe from the Balkans to the British isles(Map 1). It may be that they are descendants of those R1a bearers who came to the Balkans ~9000 ybp at the European end of their migration route from Central Asia (Klyosov & Rozhanskii, 2012)."

https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=bLwAVJvaN-ey0AWZx4CQDg&gws_rd=ssl#q=R1a+in+balkans

The whole point is that a lot of R1a in the balkans isn't ancient. I could argue that I2a also existed in ancient balkans, which might be true. But the majority came with Slavic and Gothic tribes. a mass migration to the balkans of different groups of people happened ca 2000 years ago which is backed up by historical records. If you can't attribute i2a or r1a to these migrations then what can you. These migrations happened from the north, the same places where i2a and R1a is common in Europe. The Slavic languages exist today in the balkans, but prior to Slavic migrations there were no slavic languages spoken in ancient balkans, so somehow magically South Slavs started speaking slavic but are not Slavic.... Magically some slavs brought their languages but did not bring any genes, they just disappeared out of thin air xD

As I explained, there was no Slavic empire that conquered from the north all the way down to the balkans and introduced the language and then disappeared. What happened was that slavic people came from the north and mass settled as tribes, that's why slavic languages exist in the balkans today, add also the genes they brought with them.... and all the people they came in contact with before that around the steppes/east europe, all the genes they picked up there and names. for example proto-slavs came in contact with Iranic tribes and gothic tribes around the steppes... They picked up more R1a and I2a around there.

R1a in India and Pakistan is found up to 50%-70% in some regions...it originated in South Asia most likely. R1a migrated from south asia through eurasia steppes and to Europe... some R1a might of come to the balkans.. but a lot of it did not come until slavic migrations during the fall of Roman empire and Byzantium.

The whole point is, R1a and I2a existed much less in ancient greece and balkans compared to today.. migrations from the north has increased it.

[Drawing-slim]

Today Greece must join Russia, China and Middle East against Jew.S.A. and Jewropean Union. They have suck much of our blood, enough with them.hahah, a Greek complaining about the west sucking Greek blood is defenitely lool.

[Hellenas]

hahah, a Greek complaining about the west sucking Greek blood is defenitely lool.

What else an Albanian dog of Zionists/westerners could say about his masters... Greeks are guilty for not paying their "debt" to the Jewish bankers.

Don't worry, the west will end very soon and together with them, their Albanian slaves. You will have to face the fury of the Slavs in the future...

[AtaTurkic]

Alexander was from Anatolia, a Turk. :laugh:

[Drawing-slim]

What else an Albanian dog of Zionists/westerners could say about his masters... Greeks are guilty for not paying their "debt" to the Jewish bankers.

Don't worry, the west will end very soon and together with them, their Albanian slaves. You will have to face the fury of the Slavs in the future...the west has done nothing for us compared what they done for you. West I think has donated a single city buss to Albania while has given Greece 2.8 trillion dollars.

[Hellenas]

the west has done nothing for us

The Jews of the west bombed Serbia for you. You will be punished for that in the future.


while has given Greece 2.8 trillion dollars.

The Jewish bankers gave us money so to charge us and drink our blood by gaining the fivefold of what they gave us. They are typical loan sharks. They have already destroy our quality of life.

And don't tell me that an Albanian and the Turks who gave you a thumb up for what you said about Greece care more about my country than me and other Greeks... because I won't believe you, lol!

[Faklon]

He could be J2 I don't see how though. Theoretically he could be other crap as well. But I don't claim to know 100% for certain, I have to wonder that you can be so sure when so far we have only NW european-like DNA samples in ancient greece :lol:

Where are the NW european-like DNA samples?

We have U5 in Grave Circle B in Mycenae (http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/05/mtdna-from-grave-circle-b-in-mycenae_07.html)

It has similar frequencies in UK,Netherlans,Saxony with Greece and even in Scandinavia is moving away from the Vikings(identical with Greece in Denmark).

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U5-map.png

It's very compatible with Yamna AND EVEN WITH GREEK R1B (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml) and Corded Ware (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/corded_ware_culture.shtml).

For Minoans(regarded as a small med race with origins in Arabia by anthropology btw) we have (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/full/ncomms2871.html):


The PCA analysis also highlights the high affinity of the Minoans to the current inhabitants of the Lassithi plateau as well as Greece. Among the top 10 nearest neighbours to our Minoan population sample, four are Greek populations and two of these from Lassithi prefecture (Fig. 5). The close relationship of the Minoans to modern Cretans is also apparent, when analysis is restricted to populations originating from Greece (Fig. 6b). Particularly in respect to the first PCA (capturing 92% of the variance of this particular subset of the data), the Minoans are extremely close to the modern Lassithi population, the populations from the islands of Chios and Euboea, as well as the populations of Argolis and Lakonia (Southern Greece ) (Fig. 6b). Thus, the modern inhabitants of the Lassithi plateau still carry the maternal genetic signatures of their ancient predecessors of the Minoan population.




LOL at the use of Northern btw when we speak of Steppe+neolithic(paleomesolithic+farmer mix) mixed groups.

Interestingly,Swede Bertil Lundman puts Anatolian-formation presence on Frisians and Coon gives them 35% of convex noses(5% more than he gave for Greece).

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/lundraces-map18.jpg

Mata Hari

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/32100000/mata-hari-mata-hari-32144984-398-640.jpg

Menno Simons

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Meno_simonis.jpg/220px-Meno_simonis.jpg

Although on average probably closer to how Anglo-Americans saw themselves than them.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Scientific_racism_irish.jpg

As well blonder and taller than them on which we also have.

Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/03/13/016477).

Why the Dutch became the tallest people on the planet (http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/why-the-dutch-became-the-tallest-people-on-the-planet/).


All this shows how subjective this is and there you have yourself,a half Irish half Germanized Slav American identifying as a dark-haired Tronder.


What is wrong with my views about physical anthropology?? I never said Greeks look fully Slavic, but that many do have an East European "Slavicized" vibe lacking in southern Italians and western Turks, and especially lacking in Cyprus. With the autosomal and y-dna evidence it'd be very unlikely for it to be any other way.

I have seen on 23andme a few southern Italians with I2 but they are all Apulian.

You barely seem to know anything about anthropology being completely honest,you seem to invent your own types to play and the rest go accordingly.

Autosomal hasn't shown much till now,you take Sicilians as a proxy when they're an "Italo-celtic" people.When you should take Southern plotting Greeks in which regard(till now) you barely can take some East-German and North-Croatian proxies to explain the affinities which nevertheless suffices the R-M458 frequencies and the localities of the Slavonic tribes.Of course the derivatives may be various for the South too,I'm not sure how Neolithic some of the halpogroups are,as you can see the Borrebies are trying to put a gypsy halpogroup on Alexander.

As to how medieval Slavs would have looked,something interesting was posted here:What ancient Slavic look like? (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?18750-What-ancient-Slavic-look-like&p=262247&viewfull=1#post262247)

Sikeliot's interest was high that day.

[Scholarios]

Modern frequencies =/= ancient frequencies

Besides, you are looking at modern north Greeks or Macedonians, who are (like all other European or Asian societies with a former hierarchical dynastic social system) an amalgamated hodgepodge of king and slave descendants.

Exactly the same way the Indo Euro Hittite elite must have been absorbed into the generic Anatolian pool.. or what, you think the Hittites (Indo Euros) had a 60-70% chance of being J2, G, J1 or E just because modern Turks are that? Literally arse-backwards thinking, LoL

Just look at all the ancient genetics so far and it is clear as day that Indo Euros had to have been mostly R1.. Since they were a hierarchical patriarchal bunch and practically all of Europe and Asia (west of China) became Indo Euro speaking, you're seriously telling me the odds of Alexander's tribe's originator not being R1 are low, just because modern Makedonis or north Greeks aren't? Lmao

They (ancient, not original, Indo Euros) contributed to us (modern mix-ups) rather than us being representative of them..

That's the main problem a lot of you guys denying the obvious


The problem though also lies with you guys for a few reasons. First of all, you sometimes say stuff that is just flat out false because you have these built in assumptions ( no offense because you seem more reasonable). Like, for instance you rhetorically pose the question that how can Hittites have possibly been J2 ( or whatever) assuming that their language groups must match their YDNA absolutely - and ironically this is a view taken by those who assume that the sudden appearance of Slavic languages in the Balkans around 700 AD has no correlation with possible genetic changes! Then to top it off, the absurd R= white people (?) theme with R1a Z93 is just an extreme example of this kind of absurd generalized assumption.


Exact current frequencies of haplogroups aren't 100% reliable, but they are the best lead we have other than ancient DNA ( which is unfortunately rare and difficult to handle and likely will always be so). We can also use aging methods and archaeology and linguistics. I find that those who deny the usefulness of such tools are trying to poorly mask their agenda. * but the important thing is they must be taken in Consideration together ***!!

[Sikeliot]

First of all, Myceneans didn´t settle in Southern Italy. The Myceanan population thrived between 1650 and 1200 and it was centered on the mainland of Greece. South Italy =/= Myceneans. Greek migration to Magna Graecia started the 8th to 7th century BC. By then, it was another land inhabited by other non-Greek peoples, and it was colonized by Greeks many centuries after the Mycenean era.

Then either a) southern Italians do not have ancient Greek genes (otherwise where is our R1a and I2, which you assume to have always been present), or b) southern Italians' Greek ancestry is primarily islander or from Asia Minor. Autosomally, southernmost Italians are similar to Cretans.

Another alternative is both Cretans and southern Italians have little mainland Greek ancestry, but are descended from similar Neolithic people. Also, Sicily had Phoenicians, which explains why on many calculators, Jews and Sicilians score higher southern Near East (Levant/Arabia genes) than Greeks do.

[Sikeliot]

What's wrong with it?

Well, a couple of things. I'll probably kick myself for opening this can of worms.

First of all, the term "Slavicized" is absurd. If it were true, then the term should be "Hellenized-Slav" or something.

Second, you basically equate non-Pontids or non-Gracile Meds with "Slavic" look or something, when in fact Greeks if anything can look more Albanian(non-slavs with even less slavic clades than us) than Serb or Polish or whatever.

Third, you really are limited because you haven't been to these exact places. It's not your fault, but it is flawed severely.

Fourth, you fail to understand that these uses of physical anthropology are flawed from the start, especially in the way you use them. I understand it's just a fun thing and not serious, but we know now the effect of environment, diet, etc. on physiology. Coon even found pretty big differences between American Greeks and Greeks proper in regards to cephalic index, hair color, etc.

Fair enough. These are reasonable criticisms, I won't try to refute them. The truth is I probably equate "Balkan" looks (i.e. looks indigenous to Albania and Greece) with Slavic because Balkan Slavs can have them too. It's thus an issue of perception above all.

I'll add that such looks are present in southern Italy only in Apulia or Arbereshe villages, and guess what -- Apulia has more R1a and I2 ;)

[Dianatomia]

Then either a) southern Italians do not have ancient Greek genes (otherwise where is our R1a and I2, which you assume to have always been present), or b) southern Italians' Greek ancestry is primarily islander or from Asia Minor. Autosomally, southernmost Italians are similar to Cretans.

Another alternative is both Cretans and southern Italians have little mainland Greek ancestry, but are descended from similar Neolithic people. Also, Sicily had Phoenicians, which explains why on many calculators, Jews and Sicilians score higher southern Near East (Levant/Arabia genes) than Greeks do.

I would say it is all of the above. Ancient Greeks, especially on the mainland and perhaps more in the north than to the south, had some Slavic like (East Euro) ancestral component. It wasn't dominant, but it was there. Then in the Middle Ages some migrations brought some more.

As for your assumed correlation between South Italians and Greek islander or Asia Minor Greeks. First of all, let's tackle the Slavic problem. When it comes to R1a and I, the Greeks from the islands and Asia minor are much closer to mainland Greece than Southern Italy. Aside from Macedonia, the difference is just 2-3% mostly. So Sicilians are not closer to Greek islanders because they lack R1a and I. Since that is not true, because all Greeks have it. The main differences between Greeks and Sicilians lies mostly in haplogroup J and there are other obvious reasons for that.

Greek ancestry in Sicilians is estimated to be around 37%Link (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html). So whatever East Euro like ancestry they brought there would be hard to detect because it was deluded. But since there is very little R1a and I in Sicily, it could not have been too high in Greece either.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Where are the NW european-like DNA samples?

We have U5 in Grave Circle B in Mycenae (http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/05/mtdna-from-grave-circle-b-in-mycenae_07.html)

It has similar frequencies in UK,Netherlans,Saxony with Greece and even in Scandinavia is moving away from the Vikings(identical with Greece in Denmark).

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U5-map.png

It's very compatible with Yamna AND EVEN WITH GREEK R1B (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml) and Corded Ware (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/corded_ware_culture.shtml).

For Minoans(regarded as a small med race with origins in Arabia by anthropology btw) we have (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/full/ncomms2871.html):





LOL at the use of Northern btw when we speak of Steppe+neolithic(paleomesolithic+farmer mix) mixed groups.

Interestingly,Swede Bertil Lundman puts Anatolian-formation presence on Frisians and Coon gives them 35% of convex noses(5% more than he gave for Greece).

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/lundraces-map18.jpg

Mata Hari

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/32100000/mata-hari-mata-hari-32144984-398-640.jpg

Menno Simons

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Meno_simonis.jpg/220px-Meno_simonis.jpg

Although on average probably closer to how Anglo-Americans saw themselves than them.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Scientific_racism_irish.jpg

As well blonder and taller than them on which we also have.

Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/03/13/016477).

Why the Dutch became the tallest people on the planet (http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/why-the-dutch-became-the-tallest-people-on-the-planet/).


All this shows how subjective this is and there you have yourself,a half Irish half Germanized Slav American identifying as a dark-haired Tronder.



You barely seem to know anything about anthropology being completely honest,you seem to invent your own types to play and the rest go accordingly.

Autosomal hasn't shown much till now,you take Sicilians as a proxy when they're an "Italo-celtic" people.When you should take Southern plotting Greeks in which regard(till now) you barely can take some East-German and North-Croatian proxies to explain the affinities which nevertheless suffices the R-M458 frequencies and the localities of the Slavonic tribes.Of course the derivatives may be various for the South too,I'm not sure how Neolithic some of the halpogroups are,as you can see the Borrebies are trying to put a gypsy halpogroup on Alexander.

As to how medieval Slavs would have looked,something interesting was posted here:What ancient Slavic look like? (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?18750-What-ancient-Slavic-look-like&p=262247&viewfull=1#post262247)

Sikeliot's interest was high that day.

i don't think anything you said really disagrees with me. You find the same mtdna in NW europe or very close. My point is that turko-intruders like scholaro and iberohellena are not ACIENT RUE GREEKZ. I don't think they are exactly like north europeans either, they were their own thing, but they were much closer to them than to some turkish fellows/

[Sikeliot]

I would say it is all of the above. Ancient Greeks, especially on the mainland and perhaps more in the north than to the south, had some Slavic like (East Euro) ancestral component. It wasn't dominant, but it was there. Then in the Middle Ages some migrations brought some more.

As for your assumed correlation between South Italians and Greek islander or Asia Minor Greeks. First of all, let's tackle the Slavic problem. When it comes to R1a and I, the Greeks from the islands and Asia minor are much closer to mainland Greece than Southern Italy. Aside from Macedonia, the difference is just 2-3% mostly. So Sicilians are not closer to Greek islanders because they lack R1a and I. Since that is not true, because all Greeks have it. The main differences between Greeks and Sicilians lies mostly in haplogroup J and there are other obvious reasons for that.

Greek ancestry in Sicilians is estimated to be around 37%Link (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html). So whatever East Euro like ancestry they brought there would be hard to detect because it was deluded. But since there is very little R1a and I in Sicily, it could not have been too high in Greece either.

So how would *you* explain southern Italians, especially Sicilians and Calabrese, plotting nearer island Greeks? My new thought is that the islands and Sicily always had higher Near Eastern affinity than mainland Greece, so it only makes sense they'd plot south of them.

I do agree that Indo-European genes in Greece were and are shared with Slavs, even without direct Slavic input, but I do believe there is minor Slavic input also, which lacks in Sicily.

So if we assume Sicilians received minor Phoenician, Cretans were always a bit more MENA, and mainlanders received minor Slavic, we can tell the mainlanders will be genetically put north. Also, Sicilian J2 often goes the Levantine direction, not the Greek one, especially in western Sicily.

[Shqipez]

i don't think anything you said really disagrees with me. You find the same mtdna in NW europe or very close. My point is that turko-intruders like scholaro and iberohellena are not ACIENT RUE GREEKZ. I don't think they are exactly like north europeans either, they were their own thing, but they were much closer to them than to some turkish fellows/

It's just some imagination in your own mind that ancient greeks were close to nordics. You just want to identify with them because they have done a lot of things throughout history and Alexander conquered half of the world.. But reality is that even I as an Albanian, neighbor of the Greeks, was closer genetically to these people than you. The gene pool speaks for itself. The Romans conquered the world too. There is even a book about how the med/South European race is the greatest race to ever exist. It's a book answering Nazi germans and neo-nazis claim of nordic master race.

If you look at Alexander or ancient greeks, Illyrians and Thracians you will see they looked like Balkanites. And a lot of times Albanians and greeks look like italians, specifically central. So did the Romans. It doesn't matter if they had blond and blue eyes, they had Albanian, italian & greek phenotypes... plenty of these people who have light features, nothing to do with haplogroups.

They still looked different from NW Euros. Even Russians, Ukrainians and Polaks look different from Western Euros even with light features. who all look different from Albanians and Greeks... An Albanian with blond and blue eyes looks nothing like a Scandinavian.

Most of the images of Alexander I have seen I would classify him as Dinarid/pontid. which has nothing to do with haplogroup I2a-din which is just a name givem due to the region of the balkans called Diranic alps. Even his nose was typical Balkanite

I haven't seen that many Greeks in my life, but they probably look like us in a lot of cases if you minus the slavic influence. So do Central Italians. But I think Gegs have their own look. but in some images Alexander looks Albanian/Greek... and Achilles does too. So does Pyrrhus of Epirus... 100% Albo/Greek looking... nothing nordic looking about those people... and so does Bardylis the Illyrian king. There is more to being nordic than just blond hair and blue eyes, it has to do with shape of the face, body, and phenotypes....

I'm not ''claiming'' these people. Ancient Macedonians were greeks, but ancient greeks were also influenced by Illyrians and Thracians. i'm just also basing these facts off from the fact that Illyrians and Thracians looked like ancient greeks which most scholars agree on. Thracians have been found and they showed closer genetic kinship with Albanians, greeks and Italians than anything else. Italians could be because of ancient greek and illyrian migrations to Italy, specifically the Messapians, who lived in the Apulia region of south Italy which have also been connected to Albanians and their language... Apulia region is high EV-13, R1b and J2... there is very little i2a found.

Also ancient greeks colonized Italian regions like south italy and if they were R1a and I2a I'm sure we would find a lot more in Italy. yet Haplogroup E, J2 and R1b seem to dominate except for Sardinians.

Take it as you want.

Peoples only arguement has been ''he was blond so he must of been R1a'' xD ... R1a originated in south Asia, nothing to do with blondes. North Europeans would of been blond even if they carried Haplogroup J, N, K or whatever... the result of blond and blue eyes is a mutation. R1a to Europe came with Indo-Iranian tribes all the way to the steppes/caucasus, specifically Scythians and Sarmatians, who proto-Serbs and proto-Croats were a part of as tribes. R1a is high in Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks.. even the name Serb and Croat comes from Iranian tribes. At the steppes/East euro, They met there Goths/Germanic tribes who carried I2a, they also met balto-slavs who carried R1a and who also hailed from India thousands of years back. There is even linguistical connection. So they all probably absorbed eachother, especially gothic tribes who carried I2a, Iranic tribes such as Serbs and Croats underwent ''slavicization'', they absorbed Slavic people who probably carried I2a which they got from gothic tribes that roamed East Europe or they became a mix of goths, iranic and slavic.

From there they moved inwards to central Europe (poland), and founded west croatia and west serbia.. maybe the Sorbs of Poland are left overs of these people. high R1a and I think also I2a was found. they are a small group of people so genetic drift might of happened, which means they could of been high I2a as well, but R1a has dominated. the smaller a population the more a particular haplogroup will dominate, I think.¨

Or

they moved directly from the steppes, where I2a is a hot spot and to the balkans in many different waves, not just Serbs and Croats but also others such as Bulgars where they absorbed more I2a that came from Goths that settled those areas before and more R1a that had come with other proto-slavic tribes. and they also absorbed EV-13 and J2 and R1b.

EV-13, J2 and R1b is high in a lot of non-slavic populations of the Balkans, especially Romanians, Greeks and Albanians. EV-13 seems to be high in Slavic speakers too, especially Bulgarians and Serbs, but also found among croats and Bosniaks between 10-15%. Even in the north, I think. J2 seems less in Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks compared to some other south slavs...


So tell me please how these haplogroups are not from Illyrians, Thracians and ancient greeks.

They are from slaves? Dumbest shit I've read in a long time.

The slave trade happened the opposite, Europeans were taken as slaves, specifically Slavs from east europe... they went also through Balkans.

I2a-din-north is also older than i2a-din-south... which means Its its ancestor... i2a din south is only 2000 years old, and matches historical 2nd slavic mgrations of the proto-serbs and proto-croats and others who came to the balkans, these migrations were even recorded by the Romans... there are many theories of how they came but they came, and they mass settled. and this is even confirmed by Ken Nordtvedt who says a mass migration happened from the steppes which brought a lot of I2a din to the Balkans ca 2000-1500 years ago which is the same time the 2nd slavic migration to the balkans occured.

The R1a in Asia is older than the one found in Europe, which disproves the claim that it's from Alexanders army, I also doubt Alexanders army had such a huge impact on their gene pool. They also went to North-Africa you're forgetting and also Anatolia... EV-13 for example has been found in North-Africa in small percentages, only explanation is that it was spread by ancient balkanic people, for example Alexanders army... this seems more logic to say because it's small percentage instead of claiming R1a in Asia, which is 70% in some regions.. is from Alexanders army, xD

It's pretty much pointless to claim that it came from there when the frequency is very low... yet you people claim i2a is from Balkans since the frequency is so high.... but it's not the only plays, it's frequency is also high in East Europe, which it actually migrated from.... So even with that logic of EV-13 coming from North-Africa, I could apply it with any haplogroup then... and say I2a came from some place where it's very low... it doesn't even make any sense. but the agenda is clear here.

It is a fact that R1a came from South Asia and is connected to Indo-Iranian tribes who migrated all the way to Europe. Several migrations have happened... what became known as Proto-Slavs came from there and so did the Scythians and Sarmatians, all R1a Indo-Iranian carriers... so the origin of the Balto-Slavs is actually R1a... R1a people are not just genetically connected but they are also linguistically connected. One has also to remember that Dacians were neighbors with people alongside the steppes so they came in contact with a lot of different groups.

[Black Wolf]

where j2b exist outside of russia and greece?? it exist outside europe??? is it slavic haplougroup??

thanks if you can answer..

Within Europe J2b reaches it's highest frequencies among Albanians. The only other place in the world where J2b is frequent is India.

[Shqipez]

What you people are basically saying without even knowing is that somehow leftovers of ''slaves''' ,which you claim are EV-13 and J2 Albanians and greeks, have more linguistical and cultural connection with ancient balkans than ''true ancient illyrian thracian greeks who are i2a & R1a carriers''. How is that even possible?

What connection do South-Slavs have with ancient Balkan except for things copied from indigenous people?

EV-13 and J2 has lived alongside R1b in the Balkans for a long time, it is evident.

[Scholarios]

Where are the NW european-like DNA samples?

We have U5 in Grave Circle B in Mycenae (http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/05/mtdna-from-grave-circle-b-in-mycenae_07.html)

It has similar frequencies in UK,Netherlans,Saxony with Greece and even in Scandinavia is moving away from the Vikings(identical with Greece in Denmark).

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U5-map.png





http://www.sacredland.org/wp-content/gallery/sami/samiland.jpg

http://www.galdu.org/govat/stuorra/karta.gif

Reaching highest numbers among the Saami/Lapp people's apparently ha.




Then again, they do sorta look like Myceneans?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/lundborg/Lappish_2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/cass22/media/lundborg/Lappish_2.jpg.html)

http://31.media.tumblr.com/cf375eb7e1c3d6f177e95b01149dff6e/tumblr_inline_mxtt3zHqgT1rqiq4j.jpg

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Sami have recent asianlike ancestry, but they are mostly north european HG that are nothing to do with that. They are also the highest in V mtdna which comes out of Iberia.

At any rate obviously the greeks came out of the mainland, not from the ocean as some have claimed. Which is where the J2 seems to come from. Maybe it was phoenician or something.

[Shqipez]

Lets put it this way:

If I2a and R1a was ancient greek, illyrian, thracian (ancient balkanic) and south slavs are their descendants then why do for example south slavs cluster/fall on the slavic side? Since some here claim theres a difference between linguistics and genetics in a population and, which obviously depends on that populations history, and that south slavs are only linguistically slavs but not genetically. Why do they cluster so close to Slavs? If Slavic migrations to the balkans only had linguistical effects, even when mass migrations have been recorded, then why do, again I repeat, South Slavs cluster on the slavic side? Are clusters bullshit? They might not be 100% reliable but there is also a lot of truth to it.

Were Illyrians, ancient greeks and thracians related to R1a and I2a people, proto-slavs (lets say they carried i2a), and came from the steppes and from there migrated south?

There has been linguistical connections proposed between Thracians and Balto Slavs but that theory has been dismissed, and even Albanian, which has been also by some scholars seen as descendant of Thracian, has been suggested to be related to Balto-Slavic which is also a theory not taken serious anymore as both, Albanian and Thracian, have shown to be different from Balto-Slavic.

Thracians, specifically Dacians, might of lived close to Balto-Slavs, they were neighbors and some connections might of happened then and there. Also With Iranian tribes like Scythians and Sarmatians.

Why do Albanians, Greeks and some Italians seem to cluster closer to each other than other groups? And at times Y-DNA doesn't seem to matter. So testing Albanian & Greek R1a and I2a people might be pointless.

with that being said, Y-DNa isn't the be and all for someones ancestry.. but there is a reason why south slavs fall so close to north slavs. Were ancient Balkan people slavs? I doubt it. There would be also linguistical connections like there is with R1a people of East europe (balto-slavs) and Indo-Iranians.

Greek language is also within it's own branch in the indo-european language family and so is Albanian. both far from slavic.

While I have seen some individual Bulgarians, FYROMS and Bosniaks who clustered more south closer to Albanians/Greeks/Italians. but in general, south slavs cluster closer to north slavs than anyone else.

So it's not just linguistics as some people in this thread have claimed, but obviously genetics too.

South Slavs aren't just linguistically Slavs. They are genetically too. If you take away the EV-13, J2 and R1b and all the Mtdna they absorbed when they came to the balkans, they would be even more slavic.

[Trojet]

^Absolutely agree with Bad Boy, but some people choose to ignore the evidence, and spread baseless theories, and think they know what they're talking about.

[Trojet]

As far as Alexander the Great y-dna haplogroup goes, I think it would be safe to assume that it was one of these: e-v13, j2b, j2a, or r1b-l23, but hopefully some day we will get some ancient ydna to confirm and stop speculating.

[Scholarios]

Sami have recent asianlike ancestry, but they are mostly north european HG that are nothing to do with that. They are also the highest in V mtdna which comes out of Iberia.

At any rate obviously the greeks came out of the mainland, not from the ocean as some have claimed. Which is where the J2 seems to come from. Maybe it was phoenician or something.

Well, I don't know a lot of deep knowledge about the Saami, but I do know a couple of things. First, that area of Europe is the least dense population-wise. It's also the homeland of the Saami. Furthermore, Germanic settlement has from the earliest days until now been concentrated in the far south coasts of the country- from the "mainland" as you said (where U5 is of course, similar to Balkans frequency) You can take that for what it's worth. See how we can make basically any connection that we want based on these maps? Gotta look deeper.

[Sikeliot]

Sami have recent asianlike ancestry, but they are mostly north european HG that are nothing to do with that. They are also the highest in V mtdna which comes out of Iberia.

At any rate obviously the greeks came out of the mainland, not from the ocean as some have claimed. Which is where the J2 seems to come from. Maybe it was phoenician or something.

The Greek marker is mostly E1b1b. J2 was present in places Greeks colonized, like Sicily, Calabria, Cyprus, Crete at higher rates than it exists in Greece proper.

[Scholarios]

The Greek marker is mostly E1b1b. J2 was present in places Greeks colonized, like Sicily, Calabria, Cyprus, Crete at higher rates than it exists in Greece proper.

He doesn't believe it for whatever reason, never mind the evidence in favor. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/) He says it comes from slaves or something, even though the records show that Romans kept at least as many Germanic and Gaulish and Scythian slaves as they did Levantines, Syrians or whatever (http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf). And after the Roman Zenith, these are the areas where slaves usually came from in fact. So basically, what is being said in this point of view is that J2, E1b etc. are slave markers, but the other stuff in these places represents the "original population". There is basically no proof of that, but it's all politics stuff so take it with a few grains of salt.

[Sikeliot]

He doesn't believe it for whatever reason, never mind the evidence in favor. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/) He says it comes from slaves or something, even though the records show that Romans kept at least as many Germanic and Gaulish and Scythian slaves as they did Levantines, Syrians or whatever (http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf). And after the Roman Zenith, these are the areas where slaves usually came from in fact. So basically, what is being said in this point of view is that J2, E1b etc. are slave markers, but the other stuff in these places represents the "original population". There is basically no proof of that, but it's all politics stuff so take it with a few grains of salt.

It's true though. In Greece, J2 is higher on the islands than the mainland. It is also high in most of Sicily, and especially Calabria. Therefore Greeks, wherever they went, seemed to encounter J2 people, who were likely present among Sicanians, Sikels, Elymians and Phoenicians (the original Sicilians) and among Minoans, Carians, etc.

[Drawing-slim]

As far as Alexander the Great y-dna haplogroup goes, I think it would be safe to assume that it was one of these: e-v13, j2b, j2a, or r1b-l23, but hopefully some day we will get some ancient ydna to confirm and stop speculating.wheres that village on your avatar?

[zarzian]

He doesn't believe it for whatever reason, never mind the evidence in favor. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/) He says it comes from slaves or something, even though the records show that Romans kept at least as many Germanic and Gaulish and Scythian slaves as they did Levantines, Syrians or whatever (http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf). And after the Roman Zenith, these are the areas where slaves usually came from in fact. So basically, what is being said in this point of view is that J2, E1b etc. are slave markers, but the other stuff in these places represents the "original population". There is basically no proof of that, but it's all politics stuff so take it with a few grains of salt.

It cant be slave markers because very few slaves get a chance to pass on their YDNA.

[Shqipez]

He doesn't believe it for whatever reason, never mind the evidence in favor. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/) He says it comes from slaves or something, even though the records show that Romans kept at least as many Germanic and Gaulish and Scythian slaves as they did Levantines, Syrians or whatever (http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf). And after the Roman Zenith, these are the areas where slaves usually came from in fact. So basically, what is being said in this point of view is that J2, E1b etc. are slave markers, but the other stuff in these places represents the "original population". There is basically no proof of that, but it's all politics stuff so take it with a few grains of salt.

Lol. That's absolutely nonsense. I2a''din'' south isn't more than 2000 years old and it's the same time when slavic and gothic migrations happened to the balkans, ca 2000-1500 years ago.. recorded by a bunch of historians. it was a mass expansion as Ken Nordtvedt describes it... it's ancestral has even been found in Poland. lol.... ancient greeks, thracians and Illyrians were not related to proto-slavs. Dacians might of come in contact with Scythians, Sarmatians, Goths and Balto slavs around the steppes though... south slavs fall close to north slavs more than anything else even though they have absorbed a lot of EV-13, J2 and R1b... which shows Y-DNA isn't the be and all to someones ancestry. South Slavs aren't just linguistically slavs, they are also genetically... why else would they be so close to north slavs who are also high R1a and i2a, but they also have other haplogroups but still those two dominate among them.... there is more to falling close to someone than just haplogroups, there's gotta be some recent genetic kinship which is the case with south and north slavs.... if they had lived longer in the balkans maybe there wouldn't of been, which shows they are not ancient but came from the north, poland/ukraine area, and didn't split that long time ago from north slavs... There are even people in Poland named Sorbs.

add to the fact that ancient greeks colonized and moved to places and most of what has been found there is especially E1b and J2. much less I2a or R1a.... if they were R1a and I2a it would of been high in places they settled instead of E1b and J2.. is this a coincidence? Even the region of Apulia where Messapians lived,which are believed to of been Illyrians, is mostly E1b, R1b and J2... very little I2a which is mostly found in Sardinian island.

if they can't put these connections together then I don't know... I have no bias, I just admit things as they are. to me it would be better if I wasn't even ''ancient'' then I would care less of what has happened in the balkans and be like ''yeah we took your lands, U mad?'' but the fact that my ancestors lived probably all across Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia FYROM and that these slavs live there now and that our country is divided kind of gets me upset.

Obviously these people are absolutely clueless when they think linguistics is only thing that connects south slavs with being slavs.

[Shqipez]

Not to mention how many innocent people have been killed through all the wars. When one reads of all the killings even back in the days no wonder one gets upset... 120,000 Albanian civilians killed by Serb troops during the Balkan Wars 1912... reading about headless bodies of Albanians laying on the streets.. how doesn't this get one upset?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It cant be slave markers because very few slaves get a chance to pass on their YDNA.

I don't doubt that e1b is the marker today, but I do doubt it was for alexader's father from the north. If it were slaves I think they would be completely mixed in by now. Albanians an before that epirotes probably had e1b, not the people who originally spoke greek.

Well, the very first people probably were r1b. Since it's indo european it can't really be J2 or E unless greeks indo-europeanized everyone which seems unlikely since all other IE seaking people are r1b.

I think E was there in ancient times, but was not ancient greek originally but became grecoized somehow. Keep in mind the illyrians were probably E as well, and they were the real roman empire by its end. Albanians also settled in a surprising number of locations, not just the south like I had thought.

[Shqipez]

Lets say some Slavic or goth families come carrying I2a or R1a to some Albanian lands who are EV-13/J2. now after some while these might start marrying the Albanians... The YDNA males who carry I2a marry an Albanian girl who carries EV-13.. and the girls from the I2a side marry some EV-13. and so it goes on and on through generations, they disappear into the population as a minority.. Are these people genetically slavic/gothic anymore? No. they are Albanians even if their Y-DNA is R1a or I2a or N, or whatever, their genes become dominantly Albanian. Same goes for Greeks.. and the same goes for South Slavs. Even south slavs who are EV-13, R1b and j2 fall/cluster on the slavic side because these people disappeared in the slavic populations and their genes are predominantly slavic.

The same thing happened before in these populations.. im the balkans R1b met J2 and EV-13... J2 and EV-13 might of come together or met eachother there too or something.

Same happened with Iranic tribes, goths and slavs around the steppes, they absorbed different haplogroups.

my point is, If south slavs were ancient to the balkans they would cluster much more south, closer to Greeks and Albanians regardless of haplogroups.

[Scholarios]

I don't know if EV-13 is especially Illyrian/ThracianAlbanian, but it certainly * looks* like it was carried by ancient Greeks . I mean, even after the expulsion of Christians from Western Asia Minor, it remains deeply embedded in the population there. Sounds like Ionians Greeks at the least carried it.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

[Sikeliot]

^ Notice it is strongest in Apulia, and the Messina/Enna region in Sicily, also.

[Shqipez]

That map shows it is highest among kosovo Albanians, Bulgarians and some Greeks. It's highest frequency has been found among Albanians, northern ones (gegs). It is also high among Romanians and Aromanians and also some Serbs 18%, 27& in montenegro. and 10-15% among Bosniaks and Croats. it doesn't make sense if Illyrians/Thracians did not carry EV-13. some of the EV-13 in Albanians has been found to be of different subclade I think from greeks.. Did ancient greeks have such a huge impact? but not vice versa? When I read a lot of Illyrian and Thracian tribes in the south being Hellenized for example. The Celts came a long too in the balkans which had an impact on the gene pool, maybe? What do you attribute to them? Also as I mentioned about the Messapians, probably Illyrians who lived around Apulia, most of that region is also EV-13 and J2, R1b... so if Thraco-llyrians were not EV-13, R1b or J2 then nothing makes sense.. and some R1b must of come with Celts too. There is also some guy named Steve Bird who argues that some Haplogroup E in britain is from Illyrian or Thracian soldiers that were in the Roman empire.. I don't know how he came to that conclusion. Or atleast I don't understand 100%

[Sikeliot]

It's clearly Balkan. I am just saying Illyrians and Greeks likely did spread it around.

[Scholarios]

That map shows it is highest among kosovo Albanians, Bulgarians and some Greeks. It's highest frequency has been found among Albanians, northern ones (gegs). It is also high among Romanians and Aromanians and also some Serbs 18%, 27& in montenegro. and 10-15% among Bosniaks and Croats. it doesn't make sense if Illyrians/Thracians did not carry EV-13. some of the EV-13 in Albanians has been found to be of different subclade I think from greeks.. Did ancient greeks have such a huge impact? but not vice versa? When I read a lot of Illyrian and Thracian tribes in the south being Hellenized for example. The Celts came a long too in the balkans which had an impact on the gene pool, maybe? What do you attribute to them? Also as I mentioned about the Messapians, probably Illyrians who lived around Apulia, most of that region is also EV-13 and J2, R1b... so if Thraco-llyrians were not EV-13, R1b or J2 then nothing makes sense.. and some R1b must of come with Celts too. There is also some guy named Steve Bird who argues that some Haplogroup E in britain is from Illyrian or Thracian soldiers that were in the Roman empire.. I don't know how he came to that conclusion. Or atleast I don't understand 100%

I agree, Thracians and Illyrians certainly had E-V13- if that's not so, then nothing makes sense. I am not sure exactly about any further breakdown in clades. I have heard and recall reading that for instance the E-V13 in Thessaly seems to be linked to medieval Albanians. However, in addition it appears it's highest diversity is in the Peloponnese, which can mean basically a combination of things- it's origin is there, or it existed there and when Albanians came they added to it making it more diverse. Since we can find it high in Asia Minor Coast and moderate levels in Cyprus, it seems likely both carried it. My guess is it was high among Pre-Greek populations who also make up a sizable portion of Albanians.

Yes, I've skimmed Bird's article. It makes about as much sense as anything else. I am not sure about the Celts, but for instance we have a minority of R1b in Greece that matches with Western Europe rather than Balkan R1b. It is hard to discern which of these may have come with Crusaders and which came from Celts in antiquity. (http://www.livius.org/di-dn/diadochi/diadochi_t11.html) Matching those Western clades with anything in Central Anatolia/Galatia might be illuminating.

[Shqipez]

It's clearly Balkan. I am just saying Illyrians and Greeks likely did spread it around.

That's what I think too. I think Ancient Greeks, Illyrians and Thracians carried the same haplogroups. and probably mixed a lot at one point in time or had the same ancestors. Reading history one can see that too. What other explanation is there. There might be a Pelasgian connection. I didn't believe in these kind of ''fairytales'' but these genetic proofs just confirm it more.

[Shqipez]

It's not that I think, there is too much proof. it's a fact. Siclians and their EV-13 is from Ancient Greeks, it's too obvious... Apulia region is from Illyrians.

I could believe that EV-13 was mostly from Ancient Greeks, but it doesn't explain why it exists all the way to Croatia and spread across Europe. Illyrians and Thracians must of carried it too. And the frequency in Apulia made me even more convinced. DO you also think E1b and J2 might of migrated through Caucasus and the steppes, spread across Europe and to the Balkans, instead of through Anatolia or from north-Africa?


I agree, Thracians and Illyrians certainly had E-V13- if that's not so, then nothing makes sense. I am not sure exactly about any further breakdown in clades. I have heard and recall reading that for instance the E-V13 in Thessaly seems to be linked to medieval Albanians. However, in addition it appears it's highest diversity is in the Peloponnese, which can mean basically a combination of things- it's origin is there, or it existed there and when Albanians came they added to it making it more diverse. Since we can find it high in Asia Minor Coast and moderate levels in Cyprus, it seems likely both carried it. My guess is it was high among Pre-Greek populations who also make up a sizable portion of Albanians.

Yes, I've skimmed Bird's article. It makes about as much sense as anything else. I am not sure about the Celts, but for instance we have a minority of R1b in Greece that matches with Western Europe rather than Balkan R1b. It is hard to discern which of these may have come with Crusaders and which came from Celts in antiquity. (http://www.livius.org/di-dn/diadochi/diadochi_t11.html) Matching those Western clades with anything in Central Anatolia/Galatia might be eluminating.

What about some of the EV-13 in North-Africa. Do you think some of it could of come from Alexanders army? I'm quite convinced of it.

[Scholarios]

It's not that I think, there is too much proof. it's a fact. Siclians and their EV-13 is from Ancient Greeks, it's too obvious... Apulia region is from Illyrians.

I could believe that EV-13 was mostly from Ancient Greeks, but it doesn't explain why it exists all the way to Croatia and spread across Europe. Illyrians and Thracians must of carried it too. And the frequency in Apulia made me even more convinced. DO you also think E1b and J2 might of migrated through Caucasus and the steppes, spread across Europe and to the Balkans, instead of through Anatolia or from north-Africa?



What about some of the EV-13 in North-Africa. Do you think some of it could of come from Alexanders army? I'm quite convinced of it.


To me the stuff in North Africa could be that or the Ancient Greek colonies along the coast- as Alexander's Army didn't make it so far to Libya.


http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-50c8dd87a54ff71829080c7098a4f668?convert_to_webp=t rue

http://www.foundalis.com/lan/c/maps/AncientGreekWorld.png

The stuff up the Nile could be Macedonian as well, but many (most?) of the colonists were probably Greeks proper, plus some Hellenized Balkanians. (conjecture on that one)

[Weedman]

That map shows it is highest among kosovo Albanians, Bulgarians and some Greeks. It's highest frequency has been found among Albanians, northern ones (gegs). It is also high among Romanians and Aromanians and also some Serbs 18%, 27& in montenegro. and 10-15% among Bosniaks and Croats. it doesn't make sense if Illyrians/Thracians did not carry EV-13. some of the EV-13 in Albanians has been found to be of different subclade I think from greeks.. Did ancient greeks have such a huge impact? but not vice versa? When I read a lot of Illyrian and Thracian tribes in the south being Hellenized for example. The Celts came a long too in the balkans which had an impact on the gene pool, maybe? What do you attribute to them? Also as I mentioned about the Messapians, probably Illyrians who lived around Apulia, most of that region is also EV-13 and J2, R1b... so if Thraco-llyrians were not EV-13, R1b or J2 then nothing makes sense.. and some R1b must of come with Celts too. There is also some guy named Steve Bird who argues that some Haplogroup E in britain is from Illyrian or Thracian soldiers that were in the Roman empire.. I don't know how he came to that conclusion. Or atleast I don't understand 100% because there were known to be a lot of feodorati Roman troops in Brittania

most of the time,when Romans pressed non-Romans into military service for a number of years, they sent them as far from their home as possible

I think the guy you are talking about probably assumes that at least some of the EV-13 found in Britain came from Sarmatian and even Thracian troops stationed in Roman Britain

they know from carvings, written evidence, and archaeology that there were many Roman troops in Britain from places like SE Europe, Hispania, and even the Netherlands specifically.

It's not completely unthinkable some of the EV-13 in England might be from some of that but it just depends on the sub-clade and if it can be directly traced back to SE Europe in or around or before that time frame as opposed to other types of EV-13 in the British Isles, in Ireland and Highland Scotland and other places where there were no Romans or Roman troops.

but usualy, EV-13 in Britain is seen as a possible marker of Roman troops or feoderati stationed in Roman Brittania from SE Europe as well as maybe some earlier Neolithic settlers in Britain

he's not the first to say some of it could come from Thracian or even Sarmatian troops in Roman-Britain

[Shqipez]

because there were known to be a lot of feodorati Roman troops in Brittania

most of the time,when Romans pressed non-Romans into military service for a number of years, they sent them as far from their home as possible

I think the guy you are talking about probably assumes that at least some of the EV-13 found in Britain came from Sarmatian and even Thracian troops stationed in Roman Britain

they know from carvings, written evidence, and archaeology that there were many Roman troops in Britain from places like SE Europe, Hispania, and even the Netherlands specifically.

It's not completely unthinkable some of the EV-13 in England might be from some of that but it just depends on the sub-clade and if it can be directly traced back to SE Europe in or around or before that time frame as opposed to other types of EV-13 in the British Isles, in Ireland and Highland Scotland and other places where there were no Romans or Roman troops.

but usualy, EV-13 in Britain is seen as a possible marker of Roman troops or feoderati stationed in Roman Brittania from SE Europe as well as maybe some earlier Neolithic settlers in Britain

he's not the first to say some of it could come from Thracian or even Sarmatian troops in Roman-Britain

actually he didn't say Sarmatians, which I believe carried R1a, associated with Indo-Iranian tribes. But he said Thracians and Illyrians. he meant the population of britain which some might of been originally EV-13 was substituted with arriving anglo saxons. EV-13 and other clades of E in britain might come before Roman times, and the EV-13 might be from italy itself rather than directly from Balkans... but there have been some british people who traced their ancestry back to Kosovo, Prishtina... I saw some video one time. I'll try to find it but it doesn't tell much. I don't know how he traced it back there. Maybe it's because of the high frequency rather than it actually comign directly from there... a lot of EV-13 in Italy can trace it's roots back to Balkan and some of it was already there before that obviously.

But you're right about Ancient Balkanites being stationed in britain, I know for a fact there were atleast Thracian soldiers in Britain that were stationed.

[Nurzat]

Alexander was J2a1b*

[Shqipez]

To me the stuff in North Africa could be that or the Ancient Greek colonies along the coast- as Alexander's Army didn't make it so far to Libya.


http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-50c8dd87a54ff71829080c7098a4f668?convert_to_webp=t rue

http://www.foundalis.com/lan/c/maps/AncientGreekWorld.png

The stuff up the Nile could be Macedonian as well, but many (most?) of the colonists were probably Greeks proper, plus some Hellenized Balkanians. (conjecture on that one)

Makes sense. Those maps opened my eyes more. I didn't know ancient greeks colonized so far north. They might of spread some EV-13 from there too. I know they also conquered the Apulia region and asimilating the Messapians which btw there have been found coins of the Greek God hercules from them.. the frequency of EV-13 around Anatolia seems also to match the Greek settlements.

His army did reach all the way to Egypt so some of it might be responsible for it there.

What do you think of the people from Asia that claim to be descendants from his army? Do you think they have mixed with local asian populations too much?

[Scholarios]

Makes sense. Those maps opened my eyes more. I didn't know ancient greeks colonized so far north. They might of spread some EV-13 from there too. I know they also conquered the Apulia region and asimilating the Messapians which btw there have been found coins of the Greek God hercules from them.. the frequency of EV-13 around Anatolia seems also to match the Greek settlements.

His army did reach all the way to Egypt so some of it might be responsible for it there.

What do you think of the people from Asia that claim to be descendants from his army? Do you think they have mixed with local asian populations too much?

I do not know exactly about the peoples in Asia/Afpak. There seem to be some contradicting info related to it. But there was a recent paper that Dienekes (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/03/rare-look-at-y-chromosomes-of.html) quoted related to the E found there:

The E1b1b1-M35 lineages in some Pakistani Pashtun were previously traced to a Greek origin brought by Alexander's invasions [48]. However, RM network of E1b1b1-M35 found that Afghanistan's lineages are correlated with Middle Easterners and Iranians but not with populations from the Balkans.


I believe the quote is in reference to this study of Y chromosomes on 3 tribes claiming descent from Alexander's armies. (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html) Even here, only the Pathans showed any similarity to Balkanians in regards to E.

[Trojet]

wheres that village on your avatar?

It's my hometown village in Kërçova, FYROM.

[Mortimer]

a haplogroup common in the balkans. why the nordics try to steal greek history also its quiete annoying with all those "greeks are not ancient greeks" threads.

[Scholarios]

because there were known to be a lot of feodorati Roman troops in Brittania

most of the time,when Romans pressed non-Romans into military service for a number of years, they sent them as far from their home as possible

I think the guy you are talking about probably assumes that at least some of the EV-13 found in Britain came from Sarmatian and even Thracian troops stationed in Roman Britain

they know from carvings, written evidence, and archaeology that there were many Roman troops in Britain from places like SE Europe, Hispania, and even the Netherlands specifically.

It's not completely unthinkable some of the EV-13 in England might be from some of that but it just depends on the sub-clade and if it can be directly traced back to SE Europe in or around or before that time frame as opposed to other types of EV-13 in the British Isles, in Ireland and Highland Scotland and other places where there were no Romans or Roman troops.

but usualy, EV-13 in Britain is seen as a possible marker of Roman troops or feoderati stationed in Roman Brittania from SE Europe as well as maybe some earlier Neolithic settlers in Britain

he's not the first to say some of it could come from Thracian or even Sarmatian troops in Roman-Britain

An interesting pronouncement from a military diploma (declaring citizenship on legion auxilliaries after 25 years of service) found in Cheshire UK.

The Emperor Caesar Nerva Trajan Augustus, conqueror of Germany, conqueror of Dacia, son of the deified Nerva, Pontifex Maximus, in his seventh year of Tribunician Power, four times acclaimed Imperator, five times Consul, Father of his Country, has granted to the cavalrymen and infantrymen who are serving in four wings and eleven cohorts called: 1st Thracian and 1st Pannonian Tampiana and Sebosius' Gauls and Vettonian Spaniards, Roman Citizens; and 1st Spanish and 1st Vangiones one thousand strong and 1st Alpine and 1st Morini and 1st Cugerini and 1st Baetasii and 1st Tungrians one thousand strong and 2nd Thracians and 3rd Bracari and 3rd Lingones and 4th Dalmatians, who are stationed in Britain under Lucius Neratius Marcellus, who have served twenty-five or more years, whose names are written below, citizenship for themselves, their children and descendants, and the right of legal marriage with the wives they had when citizenship was granted to them, or, if any were unmarried, with those they later marry, but only a single one each.
19 January, in the consulships of Manius Laberius Maximus and Quintus Glitius Atilius Agricola, both for the second time [i.e. AD103].
To Reburrus, son of Severus, from Spain, decurion of 1st Wing of Pannonians Tampiana, commanded by Gaius Valerius Celsus.
Copied and checked from the bronze tablet set up at Rome on the wall behind the temple of the deified Augustus, near [the statue of] Minerva.
[Witnessed by] Quintus Pompeius Homerus; Gaius Papius Eusebes; Titus Flavius Secundus; Publius Caulius Vitalis; Gaius Vettienus Modestus; Publius Atinius Hedonicus; Tiberius Claudius Menander.

So we have Thracians, Spaniards, Pannonians, Braccari (Celts from Portugal), Baetasi (Germans) and sounds like those witnesses were Greeks (Homerus, Eusebes, Menander).

[Faklon]

You find the same mtdna in NW europe or very close.
You find it almost everywhere.

You find the mtdna in Sardinia(almost wholly Neolithic population genetically by the metrics now) and South Britain(where the Neolithic settlements and the Neolithic affinity of Britain are found).

http://cdn4.sci-news.com/images/2013/05/image_1078_2.jpg
Geographic density map of mtDNA lineages shared between the Minoans and 71 extant population groups, with the higher percentages represented in blue and the lower in white. The red dots indicate the origin of each of the 71 modern population groups (Jeffery R. Hughey et al)

Even stronger affinity with ancient samples.

http://cdn4.sci-news.com/images/2013/05/image_1078_3.jpg
Geographic density map of mtDNA lineages shared between the Minoans and 11 Bronze Age, Iron Age and Neolithic populations, with the higher percentages represented in red and the lower in white. The green dots indicate the origin of each of the 11 ancient populations (Jeffery R. Hughey et al)

This also runs with anthropology as well(even for British affinities).

And above all closest to Lasithi Plateau,Crete.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yil7P0_jaGM/UZaFcxMDpEI/AAAAAAAAB1Y/zxbrc1K5-aA/s1600/MinoansF5.jpg

As well,


the populations from the islands of Chios and Euboea

Aegean islands to be inhabited by Afroninja(as you claim) Attico-Ionics.

[Dianatomia]

I don't doubt that e1b is the marker today, but I do doubt it was for alexader's father from the north. If it were slaves I think they would be completely mixed in by now. Albanians an before that epirotes probably had e1b, not the people who originally spoke greek.

Well, the very first people probably were r1b. Since it's indo european it can't really be J2 or E unless greeks indo-europeanized everyone which seems unlikely since all other IE seaking people are r1b.

I think E was there in ancient times, but was not ancient greek originally but became grecoized somehow. Keep in mind the illyrians were probably E as well, and they were the real roman empire by its end. Albanians also settled in a surprising number of locations, not just the south like I had thought.

The Greek ethnogenesis formed in Epirus and Thessaly. These are the localities of the proto-Greek culture before it expanded further South towards the rest of Greece. So the Myceneans were a mix of all these people. This is why we found sculls of different headforms in Mycanean royal tomps in Argos. So while the first carriers of the Greek language were R1b, the Myceneans surely had E and J2. In the late Mycenean era I am sure they had some Minoan input as well.

[Dianatomia]

Lets put it this way:

If I2a and R1a was ancient greek, illyrian, thracian (ancient balkanic) and south slavs are their descendants then why do for example south slavs cluster/fall on the slavic side? Since some here claim theres a difference between linguistics and genetics in a population and, which obviously depends on that populations history, and that south slavs are only linguistically slavs but not genetically.

No one said it I2a and R1a is ancient Greek. What is proposed is that some of it could have surely been there before. All Greeks and Albanians have it. So do Greek islanders, Cretans, Greeks from Asia minor. Even Turks, Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Saudi Arabians, Egyptians.

By the way, some geneticist think that Thracians carried R1a. If so, wouldn´t it be logical that Ancient Greeks had some as well?
In science you have to be very careful. You never know what will show up next.

I agree though that South Slavs have their own look.

[Faklon]

Then again, they do sorta look like Myceneans?


Half-Slavovlachic,the closest thing to a Mycenean I have seen is this mountain from Agrafa.

http://oi62.tinypic.com/14mwgvm.jpg
http://oi61.tinypic.com/4gllza.jpg

Can be seen here better (https://youtu.be/Qhaye5rsjMQ?t=372),the proto-Greek man looking over as the Borrebies gave way to nature's fury.

[Sikeliot]

No one said it I2a and R1a is ancient Greek. What is proposed is that some of it could have surely been there before. All Greeks and Albanians have it. So do Greek islanders, Cretans, Greeks from Asia minor. Even Turks, Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Saudi Arabians, Egyptians.

I2 and R1a should theoretically be more common in eastern Sicily/Calabria but they are more common in western Sicily, by a tiny bit... this implies to me that these haplogroups were not present in the Greeks who settled there.

[Dianatomia]

I2 and R1a should theoretically be more common in eastern Sicily/Calabria but they are more common in western Sicily, by a tiny bit... this implies to me that these haplogroups were not present in the Greeks who settled there.

Let´s take this maps at face value. This marker does not reach Anatolia and Italy. Could be medieval.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

This one seems to penetrate much deeper into Anatolia and is located even in Italy. In Greece it is more dominant than the one above.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png

Finally, there is another marker which can be detected on the islands and Cyprus. As well as Anatolia.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png

So, we have three types of R1a which do not correlate with each other. Perhaps M458 Slavs only went to the Balkans, and CTS1211 Slavs went to Anatolia and Italy as well. While Z93 Slavs decided to chill out on the islands and took the touristic root from Asia in order to get there.

[Scholarios]

Let´s take this maps at face value. This marker does not reach Anatolia and Italy. Could be medieval.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

This one seems to penetrate much deeper into Anatolia and is located even in Italy. In Greece it is more dominant than the one above.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png

Finally, there is another marker which can be detected on the islands and Cyprus. As well as Anatolia.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png

So, we have three types of R1a which do not correlate with each other. Perhaps M458 Slavs only went to the Balkans, and M558 Slavs went to Anatolia and Italy as well. While Z93 Slavs decided to chill out on the islands and took the touristic root from Asia in order to get there.

As stated before in this thread, Z93 is not a European R1a, it's carried in Europe mostly by Gyspy population at small percentages. It's " Indo-Aryan" or whatever.(notice it in Western and Turkish Thrace) According to Underhill, almost all in Greece is m458. Not sure about CTS1211


Here are the breakdowns I see.


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/834/r1a1.png (http://imageshack.com/f/n6r1a1p)


https://imageshack.com/i/n6r1a1p


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/222/ar1a1.png (http://imageshack.com/f/66ar1a1p)

https://imageshack.com/i/66ar1a1p


Just a quick look tells you r1a1 has more diversity in Slavic countries ( or countries with insignificant r1a1 like France) and it shows a lack of diversity in Greece (and Bulgaria, Croatia) Since it got there recently from uniform sources. Nuff Said.

[Sikeliot]

The third type of r1a also is present in southern Sicily which might be due to Cretan colonies that did exist there.

[Scholarios]

The third type of r1a also is present in southern Sicily which might be due to Cretan colonies that did exist there.

Nah, it's on the side that is facing Africa and is insignificant. That's North African brought stuff. (I assume you mean the 3rd map Z93)

[Dianatomia]

R1a1a M558 (CTS 1211) reaches 4 to 6 procent in Southern Italy and is very uncommon in Northern Italy.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s640/haplogroups_italy.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hMKZHlq141g/Uai2eteFicI/AAAAAAAAI14/Qul2-rSPeZA/s1600/Figure_S1.png

[Shqipez]

No one said it I2a and R1a is ancient Greek. What is proposed is that some of it could have surely been there before. All Greeks and Albanians have it. So do Greek islanders, Cretans, Greeks from Asia minor. Even Turks, Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Saudi Arabians, Egyptians.

By the way, some geneticist think that Thracians carried R1a. If so, wouldn´t it be logical that Ancient Greeks had some as well?
In science you have to be very careful. You never know what will show up next.

I agree though that South Slavs have their own look.

there are a bunch of people in this thread who have said it, usually without any evidence or logical explanation.. most of them have agendas.

It could of been there before but we need to look at subclades to find that out instead of just looking at plain r1a and i2a. But I don't know where to find enough information. but I'm saying that I2a din and R1a is high among South slavs and north slavs, they are the most common haplogroups in slavs.. also south slavs fall close to north slavs.. which tells me most of i2a and r1a in south slavs is from recent immigration. If it wasn't they wouldn't be falling so close genetically and speaking slavic. I doubt they are ''ancient'' like some people here have claimed who were magically slavicized. It has been shown that I2a din south is fairly new to the balkans and migrated from the north.. its no coincidence its common there too. I doubt ancient balkanic people were related to slavs except for some northern ones who came in contact with them. As for Thracians carrying R1a, It might of been Dacians which were Northern thracians. they might of come in contact with Scythians and balto-slavs around the steppes and picked it up there, I highly doubt since Dacians must of carried R1a that ancient greeks must of carried it too.. Dacians could of picked up I2a too

[Scholarios]

R1a1a M558 (CTS 1211) reaches 4 to 6 procent in Southern Italy and is very uncommon in Northern Italy.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s640/haplogroups_italy.png

Link to study? Is this the Arbereshe or Griko study? Because the map above shows R1a1 558 at 1-2.5%. It's very very weak, and diverse, a combination that shows it is the result of minor mixing recently. Even in the chart you show, it looks very very low and hardly conclusive.


No one said it I2a and R1a is ancient Greek. What is proposed is that some of it could have surely been there before. All Greeks and Albanians have it. So do Greek islanders, Cretans, Greeks from Asia minor. Even Turks, Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Saudi Arabians, Egyptians.


Your proposal is still weak, because you are starting with the assumption and working back. No one is saying that some R1a wasn't in Ancient Greece/Macedonia. What we are saying is that the vast majority of it, as evidence by genetic studies, historical chronicles, and ethnographic work, comes from the settlement of Slavs (and others) at the tail end of antiquity. This is an argumentum ad ignorantiam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance). Major fallacy, my friend.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxNSZl1gJBM

[Unome]

The more you guys talk about today's r1a Russian Slavs, the more you demonstrate your own fallacy.

As-if the world was the exact same 2000 years ago,
And as-if any of that matters?

You do realize that only Alexander and his commanders could have been r1a while the rest of his army was E & J, and then you're back to square one. How do you explain it? Since you can't then there's no reason to accept your hypotheses. And you still haven't explained how all the Y-DNA arrived at the different locations and when. And by whom.

[Shqipez]

We are also forgetting samples play a huge roll. R1a in Albanians doesn't look to be that common to me overall... and haplogroup E isn't that common in slavs if you look at samples.

most ancient greek settlements seem to have low i2a and r1a too... can someone direct me to some reliable source where i can see these different studies and subclades?

[Scholarios]

The more you guys talk about today's r1a Russian Slavs, the more you demonstrate your own fallacy.

As-if the world was the exact same 2000 years ago,
And as-if any of that matters?

You do realize that only Alexander and his commanders could have been r1a while the rest of his army was E & J, and then you're back to square one. How do you explain it? Since you can't then there's no reason to accept your hypotheses. And you still haven't explained how all the Y-DNA arrived at the different locations and when. And by whom.

All non-sequitur. All irrelevant. See again my previous post: (i.e. you don't know what the world looked like 2000 years ago, so my argument must be true!)

No one mentioned a word about "Russian Slavs". The Slavs who invaded and settled in Greece in the 7th Century were mostly from Poland and Bohemia, and a few from Pomernia-Baltic area. I am sure a few Antaes slipped in as well.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Let´s take this maps at face value. This marker does not reach Anatolia and Italy. Could be medieval.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

This one seems to penetrate much deeper into Anatolia and is located even in Italy. In Greece it is more dominant than the one above.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png

Finally, there is another marker which can be detected on the islands and Cyprus. As well as Anatolia.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png

So, we have three types of R1a which do not correlate with each other. Perhaps M458 Slavs only went to the Balkans, and CTS1211 Slavs went to Anatolia and Italy as well. While Z93 Slavs decided to chill out on the islands and took the touristic root from Asia in order to get there.

There's a little...you know, just tiny, minor problem here. Gene flow has not really been IN to anatolia from europe for the last 1000 years, but out and into europe. With a gigantichuge push of incredible proportions coming up from the south into anatolia in the form of pedorapecamelriders. Doing just like they do now, conquering them actually caused much more gene perversion than fighting them off did, as they rapidly bred and spread eveyrwhere they could.

r1a is definitely in anatolia anyway.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

Here's ALL r1.

That makes it obvious that r1a used to be connected but something happened to change that. Why, what could have happened here? :rolleyes:

[Shqipez]

The more you guys talk about today's r1a Russian Slavs, the more you demonstrate your own fallacy.

As-if the world was the exact same 2000 years ago,
And as-if any of that matters?

You do realize that only Alexander and his commanders could have been r1a while the rest of his army was E & J, and then you're back to square one. How do you explain it? Since you can't then there's no reason to accept your hypotheses. And you still haven't explained how all the Y-DNA arrived at the different locations and when. And by whom.

We have already explained that. a lot of i2a and r1a in greeks for example came with slavic migrations. Have you heard of the Serb kingdom and the Bulgarian empire who stretched all the way down to greece and Albania? Bulgarian empire had half of balkan under its empire. So did the serb kingdom. Add before that proto-slavic migrations that brought a lot of R1a, they ravaged and settled all across Byzantium, including Macedonia.

Why would Alexander of been R1a, just because you are? ok.

I'm pretty positive Ancient Macedonians were closest related to Epirotans of all ancient greeks, so Epirotans were also R1a? For example the Pelagonians, inhabitants of ancient macedonia were Epirotans. South Asians are also R1a. it originated there most likely. Is there a recent connection with European R1a? Do they fall close to eachother like South and North Slavs do? Lol No. you gotta look at subclades too. and i'm not even that good with haplogroups but seems i understand it better. You said I2a and R1a in south slavs is ancient.. but somehow they magically fall close to north slavs but are only linguistically slavs. So tell me how R1a and I2a in south slavs is not from Polaks? I don't even understand why you keep pushin this theory without even answering me. I have asked you to prove to me the R1a in Asia is newer than the one in Europe.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Also, a double bonus map because it proves the presence of sulutreans in the americas.

[Shqipez]

Here is just an example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/his/CoreArt/maps/Balkans1362.Serbia.jpg

Bulgarian Empire:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Bulgaria_Simeon_I_(893-927).svg/2000px-Bulgaria_Simeon_I_(893-927).svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs#Migrations_and_postulated_homeland

Serbia was under Bulgarians. and Bulgarians named Kosovo for Kosovo before it was conquered by Serbs, here is how Balkans seemed to of looked before arrival of slavs during Roman Empire:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/SEE520AD.png

Remind you, these lands were created by Romans and at some times do not make sense.

What is Macedon II was Paeonians or something or it was part of Dardani before arrival of Romans, and Epirus Nova was Illyria

[Shqipez]

Notice the Sklavenis and Antes longer north. they are responsible for some of the R1a in the Balkans... some claim they are ancestors of Bosnians, Croats, Bulgars and Serbs. they seem to of lived around the steppes so they might of brought I2a too rather than just R1a. Maybe I'm thinking wrong there... but in the Balkans there have been several slavic migrations, and I always thought south slavs were descendants of the 2nd migration who carried i2a and r1a, i2a which they picked up from goths around the steppes, but maybe a combination of both. while proto-slavs i always thought carried mostly r1a.

[Scholarios]

Here is just an example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/his/CoreArt/maps/Balkans1362.Serbia.jpg

Bulgarian Empire:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Bulgaria_Simeon_I_(893-927).svg/2000px-Bulgaria_Simeon_I_(893-927).svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs#Migrations_and_postulated_homeland

Serbia was under Bulgarians. and Bulgarians named Kosovo for Kosovo before it was conquered by Serbs, here is how Balkans seemed to of looked before arrival of slavs during Roman Empire:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/SEE520AD.png

Remind you, these lands were created by Romans and at some times do not make sense.


Here are some similar sources I posted before. (perhaps not useful to any functional illiterates posting in the thread)

The Bulgars in the Balkans and the Occupation of Corinth in the Seventh Century-Setton (http://groznijat.tripod.com/bulgar/setton.html)


The Evolution of Slavic Society and the Slavic Invasions of Greece: Vryonis (http://groznijat.tripod.com/slav/vryonis.html)

Still Waiting for the Barbarians: Dark Age Greece and the Making of the Slavs- Curta (https://www.academia.edu/1109168/Still_waiting_for_the_barbarians_The_making_of_the _Slavs_in_Dark-Age_Greece)

Female Dress and Slavic bow-fibulae in Greece: Curta (https://muse.jhu.edu/journals/hesperia/v074/74.1curta.pdf)

Barbarians in Dark Age Greece: Slavs or Avars. Curta (https://www.academia.edu/230060/Barbarians_in_Dark-Age_Greece_Slavs_or_Avars)

Slavic Settlement of Greece in Light of the Archaeological Sources- Stefanovicova (http://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html)

The Problem of the Slavs in Greece: History of the Byzantine Empire: Vasilef (http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/vasilief/slavs-greece.asp)

Some Remarks on the Christianization of the Slavs in Greece: Dvornik (http://digilib.phil.muni.cz/bitstream/handle/11222.digilib/110809/F_HistoriaeArtium_14-1970-1_3.pdf?sequence=1)

Ethnic Changes in 7th Century Byzantium: Charanis (http://www.arts.yorku.ca/hist/tgallant/documents/charanis.pdf)

The Plague Pandemic and Slavic Expansion in 5th-8th Centuries:Soltysiak (http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/AS/as-005.pdf)

The Chronicle of Monemvasia and the Question of Slavic Settlements in Greece: Charanis (http://www.kroraina.com/varia/pdfs/charanis_Chronicle%20of%20Monemvasia%20and%20the%2 0Question%20of%20the%20Slavonic%20Settlements%20in %20%20Greece.pdf)

Toponymy and History: Observations Concerning the Slavic Toponymy of the Peloponnese: Malingoudis (http://www.kroraina.com/slav/malingoudis_1983.htm)

The Slavs in Medieval Greece, Malingoudis (http://www.kroraina.com/slav/malingoudis_1991.htm) (Greek Language)

The Genesis of the Balkan Peoples: Georgiev (http://groznijat.tripod.com/vg/vg.html)

Slavic population in Albania- Selischiev (http://www.kroraina.com/seli_sna/index.html) (in Russian) with maps (http://www.kroraina.com/seli_sna/selish_map.html)of Slavic hydronyms in Albania

Οι μεταμορφώσεις της Πελοποννήσου (4ος-15ος αι.) (https://www.google.co.kr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=20&ved=0CGoQFjAJOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhelios-eie.ekt.gr%2FEIE%2Fbitstream%2F10442%2F7284%2F1%2F M01.011.0.pdf&ei=6aVxVPu7L4X18QXn4ILADg&usg=AFQjCNHm2JSBVqJO4R02mBvn4232cHWPIw&sig2=sZqEJGydPMjvyBR7uYw6zw&bvm=bv.80185997,d.dGc&cad=rjt) (various in Greek)

ΠΕΡΙ ΤΗΣ ΕΠΟΙΚΗΣΕΩΣ ΣΛΑΒΙΚΩΝ ΤΙΝΩΝ ΦΥΛΩΝ ΕΙΣ ΤΗΝ ΠΕΛΟΠΟΝΝΗΣΟΝ (http://users.uoa.gr/~nektar/history/2romanity/slavic_tribes_moreas.htm) ) Paparrigopoulos

Οι Σλάβοι στην Πελοπόννησο (http://www.krokeai.com/Laconia/The_Slavs_in_Peloponnisos.htm) Perikles Rodakis

Geschichte der halbinsel Morea während des mittelalters- (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZmxKAAAAYAAJ)Jakob Philip Fallermerayer ( In German)

[Shqipez]

Even Greek Macedonia was under Bulgarian empire.

[Skerdilaid]

Even Greek Macedonia was under Bulgarian empire.

Why all this sweat, bro, for a Macedonian? Chill xD

[Shqipez]

Why all this sweat, bro, for a Macedonian? Chill xD

Just discussing history and genetics :D But you're right, sometimes it's good to care less about shit like this

[Scholarios]

Just discussing history and genetics :D But you're right, sometimes it's good to care less about shit like this


True. But it's just fun. In any case, the thrust of the subhuman argument was that original Balkanians were somehow less E, J, and more R,I as some consequence of slavery and dominance over the ancestors of modern Greeks and Albanians. ( though they seem to have backtracked a bit ). It deserves a discussion as much as anything here does ( like how " punchable is this fag threads, or classify this gypsy singer etc.)


Anyways, Good job dude.

[Shqipez]

True. But it's just fun. In any case, the thrust of the subhuman argument was that original Balkanians were somehow less E, J, and more R,I as some consequence of slavery and dominance over the ancestors of modern Greeks and Albanians. ( though they seem to have backtracked a bit ). It deserves a discussion as much as anything here does ( like how " punchable is this fag threads, or classify this gypsy singer etc.)


Anyways, Good job dude.

I agree. Another subhuman arguement here was that FYROM SLAVS are descendants of Ancient Macedonians.

The truth is, FYROM Slavs are Serbian leftovers and Bulgarian leftovers from those kingdoms. and some are asimilated Albanians. and the region of fyrom today, beore roman time, was mostly inhabited by Illyrians and was part of Dardania.. sometimes they seem to be of thraco-illyrian mix to me.

Good job to you too :D

[Scholarios]

I agree. Another subhuman arguement here was that FYROM SLAVS are descendants of Ancient Macedonians.

The truth is, FYROM Slavs are Serbian leftovers and Bulgarian leftovers from those kingdoms. and some are asimilated Albanians. and the region of fyrom today, beore roman time, was mostly inhabited by Illyrians and was part of Dardania.. sometimes they seem to be of thraco-illyrian mix to me.

Good job to you too :D

I don't disagree though they are just pure Slavs (though they obviously share genetic and cultural aspects with slavs that Albanians, Greeks, and Vlachs do not, for the most part). But like we find their genetics have aspects of older Balkan folk, their culture does too. Consider the Serbian epic tradition, which is pretty awesome. Many scholars have considered it mirrored in Homeric legends. (http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1984/2/84.02.01.x.html)



According to Lord, the Slavic epic poetry was a mixture of at least two traditions, Slavic and Greek.9 If it is true that the Serbs borrowed from the Greeks, there should be some Greek influence on the structure, composition or topics of the Slavic epic poems. There was an important tradition of reciting ballads and short narrative poems on the Balkan peninsula in which superhuman heroes appear, while other poems mention heroes we know nothing about today.10 After the arrival of the Turks, according to Lord, those Serbs who became Moslems simply continued reciting or singing poems substituting Turkish heroes for the old Slavic ones.11

Lord found that the Serbian Moslem poem �The Marriage of Smailagich Mehe� has in it the motif of a young hero growing into manhood and obtaining the power to rule.12 (One version of this poem has 2,160 lines while another version has over 12,000 lines.)13 This idea is also found in Homer�s Odyssey in the story of Telemachus.14 On the mythological level, another example is found in Hesiod�s Theogony, where Zeus takes over the rule of the gods from his father.15

The theme of a hero returning home, which is the central theme of Homer�s Odyssey, was a staple theme in many Balkan folk epics, especially � . . . among the Moslemized Serbs.�16 Lord analyzed twelve epic poems dealing with this theme in his book The Singer of Tales, Appendix III. He found these ballads in Milman Parry�s collection of Yugoslav folk poetry.17


But I agree, Macedonism is a modernism that is anachronistic in many or most of its precepts. (continuity of identity, ties of their identity to a totalitarian socialist regime, clear connection with bulgarian identity, etc.) But I don't wish them any harm, just that they tone down these bizarre arguments and join reality.

[Skerdilaid]

The poems you are speaking of are actually Gheg Albanian in origin, but were passed down to the Serbs of Sanxhak and Bosnia during middle ages. Avdo, basically their Homer, was actually a bilingual singer. He sang the same songs in Albanian too:

http://www.academia.dk/KommKog/Grafik/avdo.jpg


"Montenegrin" lol

[Scholarios]

The poems you are speaking of are actually Gheg Albanian in origin, but were passed down to the Serbs of Sanxhak and Bosnia during middle ages. Avdo, basically their Homer, was actually a bilingual singer. He sang the same songs in Albanian too:

http://www.academia.dk/KommKog/Grafik/avdo.jpg


"Montenegrin" lol



It's probably true, but nonetheless they still have it. It seems the influence was evidently 3-fold, from via Montenegrin/Albanian oral tradition, through Byzantine literate culture, and finally through Croatian translations of Ancient Greek stuff- via Venetians.

[Skerdilaid]

It's probably true, but nonetheless they still have it. It seems the influence was evidently 3-fold, from via Montenegrin/Albanian oral tradition, through Byzantine literate culture, and finally through Croatian translations of Ancient Greek stuff- via Venetians.

Sure they later developed their own songs, but I was speaking of the tradition of this type of singing. Their 18th century and up Gusla singers being bilingual; meaning speaking also Albanian, is quite telling in my opinion. They though did not identify as Albanian, but you get what I am saying.

[Shqipez]

IMO, anything ancient balkanic that exists in South Slavs has been taken from Albanian, Vlach or greek traditions.

[Scholarios]

IMO, anything ancient balkanic that exists in South Slavs has been taken from Albanian, Vlach or greek traditions.

Well obviously, there is an indirect correlation between the customs, language, and genetic continuity of these peoples. But we shouldn't be too quick to follow through with the logical conclusion of "them vs. us" IMHO. Think about this kind of attitude, when taken to it's logical extreme creates the Milosevic's, Hoxha, Golden Dawn, Prisoner of Ice, Hellenas, etc. of the world. The quest for absolute autochthony always leads down the road to subhumanism. (as evidenced in some extreme willful stupidity of this thread.)

We Greeks and Albanians also inherited things from the newcomers as well- Franks, Slavs, Turks, Romans, etc- as well as from one another.


Another cool thing I remember that South Slavs do, which Greeks also have, that probably has pagan/Hellenic/Dionysian origins is the Nestinarstvo/Anestenaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestinarstvo)- the fire dance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqVCtZ9pRyQ


In this case, the dance is Thracian in origin probably, and done by both Greek and Bulgarian-speaking villages. So who does continuity belong to in such a case?

[Shqipez]

Well obviously, there is an indirect correlation between the customs, language, and genetic continuity of these peoples. But we shouldn't be too quick to follow through with the logical conclusion of "them vs. us" IMHO. Think about this kind of attitude, when taken to it's logical extreme creates the Milosevic's, Hoxha, Golden Dawn, Prisoner of Ice, Hellenas, etc. of the world. The quest for absolute autochthony always leads down the road to subhumanism. (as evidenced in some extreme willful stupidity of this thread.)

We Greeks and Albanians also inherited things from the newcomers as well- Franks, Slavs, Turks, Romans, etc- as well as from one another.


Another cool thing I remember that South Slavs do, which Greeks also have, that probably has pagan/Hellenic/Dionysian origins is the Nestinarstvo/Anestenaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestinarstvo)- the fire dance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqVCtZ9pRyQ


In this case, the dance is Thracian in origin probably, and done by both Greek and Bulgarian-speaking villages. So who does continuity belong to in such a case?

I agree. I sometimes fall on those peoples level when discussing with them.

The Thracian dance, well anicent greeks were neighbors of Thracians, and some thracian tribes underwent hellenization so it makes sense.. and proto-bulgarians absorbed Romanized Thracians when arriving so they have partial Thracian ancestry. With that being said, it would be very hard to tell who got it from who, both might of got it from Thracians, or Greeks might of got it from Bulgarians or Bulgarians might of got it from Greeks.

[Dianatomia]

Link to study? Is this the Arbereshe or Griko study? Because the map above shows R1a1 558 at 1-2.5%. It's very very weak, and diverse, a combination that shows it is the result of minor mixing recently. Even in the chart you show, it looks very very low and hardly conclusive.


No, the overview is from the whole of Italy. North to South. I forgot to post the extra table which makes it clear. It´s there now. Have a look.
Btw it is not weak: Why would you say that? In the South it almost reaches the same levels as in Greece. While on the contrary, there is almost zero M458 in Italy. It is almost non-existent. That seems to me to be a medieval arrival in the Balkans.

Don´t pay too much attention to the automatically generated maps. There are mistakes in exact quantities.

[Dianatomia]

there are a bunch of people in this thread who have said it, usually without any evidence or logical explanation.. most of them have agendas.

It could of been there before but we need to look at subclades to find that out instead of just looking at plain r1a and i2a. But I don't know where to find enough information. but I'm saying that I2a din and R1a is high among South slavs and north slavs, they are the most common haplogroups in slavs.. also south slavs fall close to north slavs.. which tells me most of i2a and r1a in south slavs is from recent immigration. If it wasn't they wouldn't be falling so close genetically and speaking slavic. I doubt they are ''ancient'' like some people here have claimed who were magically slavicized. It has been shown that I2a din south is fairly new to the balkans and migrated from the north.. its no coincidence its common there too. I doubt ancient balkanic people were related to slavs except for some northern ones who came in contact with them. As for Thracians carrying R1a, It might of been Dacians which were Northern thracians. they might of come in contact with Scythians and balto-slavs around the steppes and picked it up there, I highly doubt since Dacians must of carried R1a that ancient greeks must of carried it too.. Dacians could of picked up I2a too

I think it is pretty obvious that some R1a is indeed Slavic. M458 gets the price. But we need to be careful with the whole Slavic migration thing. Take the proto-Greeks for example who were probably R1b mostly, but even before they formed as an ethnicity, even before the Myceneans colonized the Aegean, let alone Southern Italy, they had E and J. They had it probably already in Epirus and Thessaly which is the proto-Greek area and they spread it to where ever they migrated. So, likewise, R1a proto-slavs could have Sclavisized other pre-existing people in the Northern Balkans, after which they migrated in the whole Balkan area and settled among other people. Just as they absorbed E and J, they could have absorbed haplogroup I people and earlier clades of R1a.

So while they moved some people around a little bit and brought some more R1a it is not certain that they really changed the entire Balkan make up. We need more data, but so far it is certainly not conclusive.

[Drawing-slim]

Notice the Sklavenis and Antes longer north. they are responsible for some of the R1a in the Balkans... some claim they are ancestors of Bosnians, Croats, Bulgars and Serbs. they seem to of lived around the steppes so they might of brought I2a too rather than just R1a. Maybe I'm thinking wrong there... but in the Balkans there have been several slavic migrations, and I always thought south slavs were descendants of the 2nd migration who carried i2a and r1a, i2a which they picked up from goths around the steppes, but maybe a combination of both. while proto-slavs i always thought carried mostly r1a.Very good detective work sir. Sounds very plausible to me.

[Scholarios]

No, the overview is from the whole of Italy. North to South. I forgot to post the extra table which makes it clear. It´s there now. Have a look.
Btw it is not weak: Why would you say that? In the South it almost reaches the same levels as in Greece. While on the contrary, there is almost zero M458 in Italy. It is almost non-existent. That seems to me to be a medieval arrival in the Balkans.

Don´t pay too much attention to the automatically generated maps. There are mistakes in exact quantities.

Sorry, but could you please post the entire study/link or some analysis? Because what I am seeing there doesn't really say anything about R1a1 in South Italy (that I can see). It says a total for all Italy, but not the south. (for instance, there is definitely R1a in Sicily, and there is definitely R1a1 specifically in the North), But that map itself doesn't really break anything down, just totals.

Most studies I see show it reaching it's highest around Venezia at 10-13% and in addition in Tyrol area at like 5.5%. No where else I can see really goes beyond 4-5% R1a at the most (of all varieties)

Based on Capelli's (2005) study, this is what I see:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dsGYkxd7z_E/RbzJpCLLk1I/AAAAAAAAABI/IdIx2Kwz6DQ/s1600/R1a-low.png


I am guessing that the R1a that is in Sicily (depending on the study, 2- 5%) is mostly Norman in origin, since it is coupled with I1 (which itself is intensely radiating from Palermo, where the Normans held court, if I am not mistaken)

And let's not forget that Greeks and Arbereshe also settled both Sicily and Calabria until relatively recently as well.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I think it is pretty obvious that some R1a is indeed Slavic. M458 gets the price. But we need to be careful with the whole Slavic migration thing. Take the proto-Greeks for example who were probably R1b mostly, but even before they formed as an ethnicity, even before the Myceneans colonized the Aegean, let alone Southern Italy, they had E and J.

:lol:

How the fuck could you possibly know that?

I really doubt that's the case. They did not coalesce in balkans but came from elsewhere, seemingly the NW, where there was never any E or J.

[Scholarios]

:lol:

How the fuck could you possibly know that?

I really doubt that's the case. They did not coalesce in balkans but came from elsewhere, seemingly the NW, where there was never any E or J.

Now why would you put them in the NW when the Kurgan hypothesis puts the Proto-Indo-Europeans around the Black Sea, the Yamna culture was around the Black Sea, and the Ydna extracted from the Yamna skeletons almost all matches a clade of R1b that reaches its highest points in the modern Central Balkans?

[safinator]

Sorry, but could you please post the entire study/link or some analysis?

There you go (http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html)

[Dianatomia]

I am guessing that the R1a that is in Sicily (depending on the study, 2- 5%) is mostly Norman in origin, since it is coupled with I1 (which itself is intensely radiating from Palermo, where the Normans held court, if I am not mistaken)

And let's not forget that Greeks and Arbereshe also settled both Sicily and Calabria until relatively recently as well.

Interesting, so you think that the R1a which is in Italy and Anatolia is essentially from non-Slavic sources, while the same clade of R1a which is found in Greece is from Slavs?

[Scholarios]

...

[Scholarios]

There you go (http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html)

Thank you.


It still looks very very small and not to mention, most importantly, that out of all of that r1a1a- none of it is r1a1a7, if I am reading it correctly. Though I have seen (read) about a few r1a17 in Sicily. Not surprisingly, it reaches it's highest levels (still low, even by Aegean island standards) in Lecce and Upper Apulia, closest to the Balkans. Hmm.

[Scholarios]

Interesting, so you think that the R1a which is in Italy and Anatolia is essentially from non-Slavic sources, while the same clade of R1a which is found in Greece is from Slavs?

I think it's from non-Slavic and some Slavic sources, and from Greeks carrying Slavic-derived R1a. (but R1a in Anatolia is also a Kurdish phenomenon). Sikeliot is R1a but I think his clade has nothing to do with Slavs.

[Dianatomia]

Thank you.


It still looks very very small and not to mention, most importantly, that out of all of that r1a1a- none of it is r1a1a7, if I am reading it correctly. Though I have seen (read) about a few r1a17 in Sicily. Not surprisingly, it reaches it's highest levels (still low, even by Aegean island standards) in Lecce and Upper Apulia, closest to the Balkans. Hmm.

I indicated that it is not r1a1a7 (m448), and it's almost entirely r1a1a (m558). In Crete there is considerably more m558, than m448. Same is true for Anatolia, wherein m448 is almost non-existent. So the way I see it, so far, m558 still is a valid candidate for preceding the Slavs.

Moreover, we should also note that one clade (m448) is centered in Poland and the other (m558) in Russia.

[Shqipez]

:lol:

How the fuck could you possibly know that?

I really doubt that's the case. They did not coalesce in balkans but came from elsewhere, seemingly the NW, where there was never any E or J.

E and J is spread almost all across Europe.

[Faklon]

First, I was born and raised in Greece and I have no idea what you are talking about. Second, Greeks have moved all over the place and the major cities were populated from the countryside in recent times.


Well,white is mostly irrelevant beyond New world censuses and some cultural identifications.

However,in case you may see some relevant diversity in looks between rural ares and major cities (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?167143-Compare-and-contrast-between-two-Greek-groups).

To whatever value anthropology has and my conception of it,the women group(and primarily in morphological traits) is closer to past-century anthropology concerning Greece.

Here's a good pill for Prisoner/Melonhead btw.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/5ulslx.jpg

One guy claims that Lasithi has serious Arabic influx and looks like Jordan and another who travelled there calls it Al-Sithi because he thought he was in Saudi Arabia,and they still cluster with Minoans in terms of mtdna with an interesting similarity to South Britain(!).

Of course having Cretans overstating their light traits and calling Turks on the mainland doesn't help neither.

http://oi59.tinypic.com/r7ktpe.jpg

Having Maniots defining Aryan as some lighter alpines (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?65779-Classify-Eleni-Zaroulia-Wife-of-Golden-Dawn-Leader&p=1238006&viewfull=1#post1238006) when their homeboys look like they do,doesn't help neither.

But anyway Maniots freed us all and they didn't even care to know about the civil war of 1824,with proud homegrown Dorian heroes like Kladas from Epirus.

Well,I have someone better.His name is Malus,Mister Malus.

I'm offering myself as a semi-Lysimachus to his noble name,join us Ionic-fathered man,be the Aristotle of the occasion and refresh our minds with your world acquired knowledge.

Remove Karagkiozis phalanx,Barba-Yiorgos stronk phalanx.

KING OF THE SLAVOVLACHS,THE KING OF THE SLAVOVLACHS (https://youtu.be/FnLUrGt2114?t=107)


Wolves still survive north of the Corinthian and this time R1a will be spread to Mars.

[Weedman]

E-V13, J2 or... I1? :D


either Y-DNA, R1b-V88, R1b-M222, N1c1, or Q :rolleyes:



LMFAO

[Shqipez]

Illyrian migrations:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Illyrian_colonies_in_Italy_550_BCE.jpg


Haplogroup EV-13 migration to Apulia Italy:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mlwilson/E1b1b1Route.gif



EV-13 frequency:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


J2b migration to italy, matches Illyrian migration:

http://64.40.115.138/file/lu/6/52235/NTIyMzV9K3szNTcxNTY=.jpg?download=1

j2b frequency:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif


Notice high frequencies in the same areas.


Compare it to I2a and R1a:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

I have seen some other maps and the balkan clades of R1a barely exist in Italy. I2a is like 1%-5%.. some maps show even lower frequency. I'm not denying some I2a might of been there before and also R1a, but it was less than today, including the balkans. Probably the same with R1b. Neither R1b, I2a or R1a match these migrations. R1b came from the north. Some or a lot of R1b in the Balkans might of come from Celts and the Illyrians that migrated to Italy might of not carried R1b. R1b might of come later with Celts to the balkans, creating celto-illyrians, went all the way down to greece and also went through Anatolia. Illyrians could of picked up halstatt culture from someone else. Not denying some R1b, I2a and R1a could of existed before that.

Could EV-13 and J2b of been originally carried by Pelasgians? ancestors of ancient balkan people? it matches the claim from where they came from. and that migrated north. they might of lived in greece, and then proto-greeks came, brought more of E and J2 and mixed with them... and then some of them migrated north, becoming Illyrians and Thracians, while some kept migrating all the way across europe... and then migrating to italy across the adriatic sea with EV-13 and J2b... and then came R1b with Celtic migrations from the north.

What is your input.

Were the first balkan people populations majorly E and J2 carriers?

They might of been sea people originally. which explains the migrations across the seas. Before someone tells me Balkan people are not sea people... these arguements are pointless, and I have heard them before. Times change and peoples habits change.

It might sound crazy but those pics of EV-13 and J2b migrations matches the story of Pelasgians who also were sea people. A lot of Illyrians and ancient greeks were also sea people. depending on where they lived. obviously inland people weren't.

Some ancient greek historians write some Pelasgians migrated north.

Could also for example, J2b of migrated through anatolia and met EV-13 in the balkans that most likely migrated through sea.

Add these with Haplogroup E and Illyrian/Thracian soldiers in britain. and Ancient Greek and ancient balkanic settlements in Asia, north africa and Haplogroup E.

[Skerdilaid]

Illyrian migrations:

I have seen some other maps and the balkan clades of R1a barely exist in Italy. I2a is like 1%-5%.. some maps show even lower frequency. I'm not denying some I2a might of been there before and also R1a, but it was less than today, including the balkans. Probably the same with R1b. Neither R1b, I2a or R1a match these migrations. R1b came from the north. Some or a lot of R1b in the Balkans might of come from Celts and the Illyrians that migrated to Italy might of not carried R1b. R1b might of come later with Celts to the balkans, creating celto-illyrians, went all the way down to greece and also went through Anatolia. Illyrians could of picked up halstatt culture from someone else. Not denying some R1b, I2a and R1a could of existed before that.

Could EV-13 and J2b of been originally carried by Pelasgians? ancestors of ancient balkan people? it matches the claim from where they came from. and that migrated north. they might of lived in greece, and then proto-greeks came, brought more of E and J2 and mixed with them... and then some of them migrated north, becoming Illyrians and Thracians, while some kept migrating all the way across europe... and then migrating to italy across the adriatic sea with EV-13 and J2b... and then came R1b with Celtic migrations from the north.

What is your input.

Were the first balkan people populations majorly E and J2 carriers?

They might of been sea people originally. which explains the migrations across the seas. Before someone tells me Balkan people are not sea people... these arguements are pointless, and I have heard them before. Times change and peoples habits change.

It might sound crazy but those pics of EV-13 and J2b migrations matches the story of Pelasgians who also were sea people. A lot of Illyrians and ancient greeks were also sea people. depending on where they lived. obviously inland people weren't.

Some ancient greek historians write some Pelasgians migrated north.

Could also for example, J2b of migrated through anatolia and met EV-13 in the balkans that most likely migrated through sea.

Add these with Haplogroup E and Illyrian/Thracian soldiers in britain. and Ancient Greek and ancient balkanic settlements in Asia, north africa and Haplogroup E.

R1b that Albanians have and perhaps to some extent the Greeks, is mostly old clades. "Celtic" and "Germanic" R1b clades are non extent among Albanians, Greeks have little of it. Illyrians did not pickup Hallstat culture, they indeed were southern point of it. E-V13 is definitely Pelasgiain or whatever you want to call the old folk of Balkans before the Indo-Europeans such as Greeks, Phrygians, Armenians and later Thracians and Illyrians migrated there. J2 is more complex, and probably J2a existed along with G among them, but J2b, which is most J that is found among Albanians, is associated with Indo-Europeans along with our R1b by some people.

[Shqipez]

I noticed that too. It's high among some Greeks too. thinking twice, I doubt it's celtic. R1b l23 also, like EV-13 and J2b, exists in Apulia higher than I2a or R1a east euro clades and some R1b l23 might of come there with Illyrian migrations too together with some EV-13 and J2b. and also ancient greeks in sicily. from there some might of migrated north to italy

[Óttar]

Surely he must have been a genuine I1 Viking. ;)

[Shqipez]

R1b that Albanians have and perhaps to some extent the Greeks, is mostly old clades. "Celtic" and "Germanic" R1b clades are non extent among Albanians, Greeks have little of it. Illyrians did not pickup Hallstat culture, they indeed were southern point of it. E-V13 is definitely Pelasgiain or whatever you want to call the old folk of Balkans before the Indo-Europeans such as Greeks, Phrygians, Armenians and later Thracians and Illyrians migrated there. J2 is more complex, and probably J2a existed along with G among them, but J2b, which is most J that is found among Albanians, is associated with Indo-Europeans along with our R1b by some people.

So those indo-european people were then most likely R1b and J2b people who picked up/asimilated already arrived EV-13 people from what ancient greeks called Pelasgians, sea people. most likely non-indoeuropean speaking people. r1b came from north and also went all the way south to greece and through anatolia.

R1b in Albanians can be attributed to hallstat culture and proto-illyrians? From there Illyrians carrying R1b, EV-13 and J2b migrated to Italy, Apulia through sea.

what's your input on this.

Some Y-DNA haplogroups in some populations can also be due to genetic drift. for example the high J in Caucasus is due to genetic drift, small populations, the same thing among kosovars and EV-13. it could of aswell of been R1b or J2b dominating that much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect

[Trojet]

It is possible that J2b found in Albanians could be as a result of Indo Europeans, however according to yfull, subclades downstream of J2b such as L283, Z590 or Z600 which are found exclusively in the Balkans, Southern Italy and the rest of Europe, formed over 9000 years ago. That would suggest to me that J2b subclades in the Balkans are older than the bronze age Indo European migrations which supposedly came from up north according to the Kurgan hypothesis. It is thought that J2b migrated from Anatolia, also ancestral clades such as J2b-M102 and Z1825 are found mainly there. http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M102/

[Loki]

I would suggest E-V13, since this is the ancient haplogroup of great leaders and warriors from Pelasgian/Ancient Greek/Trojan/Thracian/Illyrian origin.

[solaris]

so.... Which Y haplogroup did Alexander the Great belong to?

[Skerdilaid]

So those indo-european people were then most likely R1b and J2b people who picked up/asimilated already arrived EV-13 people from what ancient greeks called Pelasgians, sea people. most likely non-indoeuropean speaking people. r1b came from north and also went all the way south to greece and through anatolia.

R1b in Albanians can be attributed to hallstat culture and proto-illyrians? From there Illyrians carrying R1b, EV-13 and J2b migrated to Italy, Apulia through sea.

what's your input on this.

Some Y-DNA haplogroups in some populations can also be due to genetic drift. for example the high J in Caucasus is due to genetic drift, small populations, the same thing among kosovars and EV-13. it could of aswell of been R1b or J2b dominating that much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect

That is one way of looking at it, though, in my opinion R1b predates Indo-Europeans in Balkans, they just reinforced it. Bell Bakers had plenty of R1b, and probably it dispersed from the Balkans up North. Albanians are quite diverse on R1b, on old clades of course. We have two Albanians that have tested at ftdna, both R1b, but not related.

I wouldn't attribute E-V13 just to Pelasgians, but to pre Indo-European of the peninsula."Sea People", if am not mistaken meant Phoenecians, so different people.

As Trojet pointed out, J2b is more complex, and I would probably say it's very similar to our R1b; it probably was present in the Balkans and later got reinforced with Indo-Europeans, considering its origins or where the ancestral clades are found, very possible.

Illyrians could have carried those y-dna to Italy but I haven't really looked into them. Their R1b can be different clades though, so not related to ours at all.

[Scholarios]

Well,white is mostly irrelevant beyond New world censuses and some cultural identifications.

However,in case you may see some relevant diversity in looks between rural ares and major cities (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?167143-Compare-and-contrast-between-two-Greek-groups).

To whatever value anthropology has and my conception of it,the women group(and primarily in morphological traits) is closer to past-century anthropology concerning Greece.

Here's a good pill for Prisoner/Melonhead btw.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/5ulslx.jpg

One guy claims that Lasithi has serious Arabic influx and looks like Jordan and another who travelled there calls it Al-Sithi because he thought he was in Saudi Arabia,and they still cluster with Minoans in terms of mtdna with an interesting similarity to South Britain(!).

Funny point is, their Ydna is weird and "foreignish" (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html#tbl1)(i.e. "Northern" in contrast to other parts of Crete..). but their mtdna is pure Minoan. Yet they still look 'Arabid" Hmmm....



Agree with the rest. Especially about Archon-Malus.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Now why would you put them in the NW when the Kurgan hypothesis puts the Proto-Indo-Europeans around the Black Sea, the Yamna culture was around the Black Sea, and the Ydna extracted from the Yamna skeletons almost all matches a clade of R1b that reaches its highest points in the modern Central Balkans?

So now E and J are on the steppe as well? This is more absurd than the slavic viking tourism idea you had previously.


It's all well and good to say they came from the steppe, but they didn't come from the steppe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclopean



Cyclopean masonry is a type of stonework found in Mycenaean architecture, built with massive limestone boulders, roughly fitted together with minimal clearance between adjacent stones and no use of mortar. The boulders typically seem unworked, but some may have been worked roughly with a hammer and the gaps between boulders filled in with smaller chunks of limestone.

The most famous examples of Cyclopean masonry are found in the walls of Mycenae and Tiryns, and the style is characteristic of Mycenaean fortifications. Similar styles of stonework are found in other cultures and the term has come to be used to describe typical stonework of this sort.

The term comes from the belief of classical Greeks that only the mythical Cyclopes had the strength to move the enormous boulders that made up the walls of Mycenae and Tiryns. Pliny's Natural History reported the tradition attributed to Aristotle, that the Cyclopes were the inventors of masonry towers, giving rise to the designation Cyclopean


Sound like something that was done by some woowoowoo horsemen riding off the steppe to you?

Considering it's actually much more advanced than any neolithic to the SE as well then it has to come from the NW really. That is what actual archaeology says, as well. Regardless, the idea that E and J were a part of these guys is pretty ludicrous. It could be that the E and J was in the area already when they came, but the E shows definite signs of being a newcomer to most of greece.

[Scholarios]

http://i.imgur.com/UrOJWma.png

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4058/4649422800_91e1081be6_z.jpg



He actually looks more like this French-speaking Hungarian-Greek-Sephardic-Corsican-Italian. (I'm not exaggerating, that is actually his background in full)

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo36/getsmartwakeup/JeanSarkozyandAlexanderTheGreat.jpg


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/files/2009/10/jean.jpg

http://static1.purepeople.com/articles/6/17/47/6/@/87793-jean-sarkozy-637x0-1.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4150/4834909222_6967ee97ed_z.jpg


His father looks like the Pompeii Mosaic:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01554/sarkozy_1554134c.jpg

http://www.soniahalliday.com/images/IT1090-12FHC.jpg

[Drawing-slim]

I would suggest E-V13, since this is the ancient haplogroup of great leaders and warriors from Pelasgian/Ancient Greek/Trojan/Thracian/Illyrian origin.If E-v13 is pelasgian then I2a must be Illyrian.
Btw, I do agree Alexander must have been E-v13 as I've stated on this thread couple times.

[Scholarios]

So now E and J are on the steppe as well? This is more absurd than the slavic viking tourism idea you had previously.


I didn't say that it came from the steppe, (i said some kinds of r1b did) and even if they didn't the yamna and proto-greeks had like a thousand years or more to mix with others to get any possible dnas by the age of alexander.

[Shqipez]

E isn't a newcomer, it's obviously related with ancient PIE people of the balkans. Ancient greeks called them Pelasgians. first inhabitants of greece and Balkan peninsuala. They apparently hailed from Egypt, some others theories of them have come hailing from Caucasus which means E, J and G could of come also around the steppes. its just a theory. but ancient greeks wrote they came from Egypt, which means E came with them most likely through sea. Alexander was most likely EV-13 followed by J2b, R1b and G. Here is a map of ancient balkans showing toponyms from these Pelasgians, notice the name in Macedon and Epirus related to them:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

Pella, Pelagonia, Pelion, Pelasgiotis. Add to that some ancient greek historian mentioning some Pelasgian man as the ancestor of Epirotans.

Pelagonians were also people of ancient macedonia who were Epirotans. Alexanders mother was also Epirotan. Add that with ancient greeks mingling with Illyrians and Thracians tribes. Influences happened from all sides.

when some people argue here they seem to see for example Epirotans and Macedonians as totally different people.

[Shqipez]

He actually looks more like this French-speaking Hungarian-Greek-Sephardic-Corsican-Italian. (I'm not exaggerating, that is actually his background in full)

His father looks like the Pompeii Mosaic:

http://www.soniahalliday.com/images/IT1090-12FHC.jpg

I thought that's Alexander? Which clearly shows he did not have blond hair. But Brown hair. brown long hair with shades of blond stripes most likely when they get long hair it shows a shade of another color. but with short hair it's dark.

[Crn Volk]

I thought that's Alexander? Which clearly shows he did not have blond hair. But Brown hair. brown long hair with shades of blond stripes most likely when they get long hair it shows a shade of another color. but with short hair it's dark.

This is Prisoner of Ice's favourite pic...lol ;)

[Scholarios]

I thought that's Alexander? Which clearly shows he did not have blond hair. But Brown hair. brown long hair with shades of blond stripes most likely when they get long hair it shows a shade of another color. but with short hair it's dark.

Yeah, it's Alexander- I meant it looks like Nicholas Sarkozy (Jean Sarkozy's dad). POI discounts this one cuz it looks pure Balkan-wog and counts all the vague cartoonish ones in mythological motifs because they can be interpreted fluidly.

This one from the 3rd Century BC also looks very Dinarish- almost Armenoid.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5230/5694115718_a682640d7d_b.jpg

https://theworldofalexanderthegreat.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/istanbul_dj-31032010-1-0815d_alexander-kyme.jpg

[Shqipez]

Yeah, it's Alexander- I meant it looks like Nicholas Sarkozy (Jean Sarkozy's dad). POI discounts this one cuz it looks pure Balkan-wog and counts all the vague cartoonish ones in mythological motifs because they can be interpreted fluidly.

according to some sources he was like 1.69m in height or something which apparently was considered short at that time. seems to me the description of a med.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Yeah, it's Alexander- I meant it looks like Nicholas Sarkozy (Jean Sarkozy's dad). POI discounts this one cuz it looks pure Balkan-wog and counts all the vague cartoonish ones in mythological motifs because they can be interpreted fluidly.

It's from pompei, every real depiction of alexander has him as blond. The justification greeks have is that it's inspired by the guy who did alexander for real, therefore it's legit. But it's obviously an attempt to blend domitian and alexander together. Alexander did not have armor like that or that emblem.

It also doesn't discount the blong alexanders, which actually come from macedonia. How the flying fuck can some pompei mosaic be more accurate than the actual macedonian ones. Only to the most deranged butthurted swartoid does this make any sense.

[Cheryshiev Shadgiyev]

macedonians thinks he was slavic

[Drawing-slim]

macedonians thinks he was slavicWell, it's not the strangest thing to read. Serbs claim that 18 Popes have come from the territory of modern day republic of Serbia, so they must have been Serbs:D

[Shqipez]

Yeah, it's Alexander- I meant it looks like Nicholas Sarkozy (Jean Sarkozy's dad). POI discounts this one cuz it looks pure Balkan-wog and counts all the vague cartoonish ones in mythological motifs because they can be interpreted fluidly.

This one from the 3rd Century BC also looks very Dinarish- almost Armenoid.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5230/5694115718_a682640d7d_b.jpg

https://theworldofalexanderthegreat.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/istanbul_dj-31032010-1-0815d_alexander-kyme.jpg

notice the curly hair. Isn't that like associated among White nationalists as a non-white trait? Not a good sign for POI? Almost every pic seems also to show some kind of curly like hair. even the one where he is classified as a balkan wog.

[Shqipez]

If E-v13 is pelasgian then I2a must be Illyrian.
Btw, I do agree Alexander must have been E-v13 as I've stated on this thread couple times.

Illyrians or proto-illyrians were hallstatt culture. I associate hallstatt people with R1b clades.

What happened is that these hallstatt proto-Illyrians migrated to the balkans and met some indigenous mountain people, maybe E, and J2b? (Need to research more on J2b) These indigenous people were a majority compared to the arriving Illyrians who were smaller in numbers, but the Illyrians were a ruling elite most likely who asimilated these people into their culture and language, but they might of influenced them which created a new Illyrian identity..

''The Hallstatt culture spread in many directions, including the southeast, where it penetrated Bosnia, and eventually Albania.''


''As the Illyrians spread southwestward along the Dinaric Alps into Montenegro and Albania, they apparently blended with an indigenous brachycephalic mountain population which may have been more numerous than the invaders; for, with some additions and modifications, it persists as a predominant element today. In a small series of early Christian crania from a site near Split on the Dalmatian coast, 23 both Dinaric brachycephals and a few long-headed crania are represented. In Albania, a country which is almost completely unknown archaeologically, a single skull which belonged to a Romanized Illyrian group has been found in an Iron Age site in the tribe of Puka. 24 This skull is mesocephalic, and seems, insofar as we may judge, intermediate between the Illyrians of the old type and Dinarics.''

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI2.htm

you can read there more information^ very interesting.

[DarknessInside]

So E-V13 won?! Congratulations to Alexander! LOL...

[Crn Volk]

So E-V13 won?! Congratulations to Alexander! LOL...

Perhaps a poll should have been added to this thread

[Faklon]

Yeah, it's Alexander- I meant it looks like Nicholas Sarkozy (Jean Sarkozy's dad). POI discounts this one cuz it looks pure Balkan-wog and counts all the vague cartoonish ones in mythological motifs because they can be interpreted fluidly.

This one from the 3rd Century BC also looks very Dinarish- almost Armenoid.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5230/5694115718_a682640d7d_b.jpg

https://theworldofalexanderthegreat.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/istanbul_dj-31032010-1-0815d_alexander-kyme.jpg

This one is from Cyme(Asia Minor) right?

Interesting diversity in art in Asia Minor compared with the statue from Magnesia (http://www.hackneys.com/alex_web/graphics/alxgld1.jpg),even more interesting considering that the first city was founded by Euboeans in Aeolis and the second from Thessalians in Ionia.

Taking the Azara Herm (http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa162/MasudiAl/trimage.jpg) and maybe the one from Pergamon (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/79/6c/40/796c4005601fc6a395b98a4073172b4e.jpg) as more accurate seems to come closer to the alleged reconstruction of Philip 2 (http://www.pictureshack.us/images/20331_UTDlpc2nEto.jpg).

Maybe slight Seleucid influence who I imagine something like this kind of "flathead":1 (http://oi61.tinypic.com/2u3y4vk.jpg),2 (http://oi60.tinypic.com/ea38li.jpg).

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Yeah, it's Alexander- I meant it looks like Nicholas Sarkozy (Jean Sarkozy's dad). POI discounts this one cuz it looks pure Balkan-wog and counts all the vague cartoonish ones in mythological motifs because they can be interpreted fluidly.

This one from the 3rd Century BC also looks very Dinarish- almost Armenoid.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5230/5694115718_a682640d7d_b.jpg

https://theworldofalexanderthegreat.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/istanbul_dj-31032010-1-0815d_alexander-kyme.jpg

Considering this looks different than every other, I have to say it's bullshit.

It looks nothing like the ones the guy you fap to did of alexander, who the painting is maybe possibly made by which speculatively COULD have been the inspiration for the mosaic, therefore WAS. So even by your own twisted web of logic this is retarded crap.

[Longbowman]

Considering this looks different than every other, I have to say it's bullshit.

It looks nothing like the ones the guy you fap to did of alexander, who the painting is maybe possibly made by which speculatively COULD have been the inspiration for the mosaic, therefore WAS. So even by your own twisted web of logic this is retarded crap.

Can you list any wogs who actually contributed to society?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Can you list any wogs who actually contributed to society?

Bill Cosby.
Chris Rock.
Richard Prior.
ODB.
The guy who invented peanut butter.


Probably could come up with a couple more.

[Longbowman]

Bill Cosby.
Chris Rock.
Richard Prior.
ODB.
The guy who invented peanut butter.


Probably could come up with a couple more.

forgive my outburst. I thought you were being one-sided. I see you are reasoned and balanced

[Queen B]

Can you list any wogs who actually contributed to society?
Wogs as Southern Euros?

[Arch Hades]

I'm leaning towards the same one Hitler and Napoleon had.

[drgs]

Arent Hitler and Napolean in the same club (E1...)?

[Arch Hades]

Arent Hitler and Napolean in the same club (E1...)?

Yep, and likely Vlade the Impaler too.

[Brutus]

He was most likely E1b1b, then J2 and I2, depending on the distribution of Y-DNA at Northern Greece and Macedonia.

[MiloshN]

E1b1b or J2

[Kelmendasi]

My best bet would be E-V13

[Mr Snailham]

Hello everyone

[Kaspias]

C, fixed.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

R1a,r1b or j2..

[DarknessWin]

EV13

[Maintenance]

j2a

[Skif]

R1a or R1b

[DarknessWin]

R1a or R1b

Hellenic army spread EV13 in middle east with Alexander campaign so they were most probably EV13

[Skif]

Hellenic army spread EV13 in middle east with Alexander campaign so they were most probably EV13

He wasnt a commoner,he was part of the nobility thus his y chromosome was most likely of IE origin just like most of the later european rulers.

[Ayetooey]

Probs something neolithic like E-V13, or J something.

[Outlaw]

He wasnt a commoner,he was part of the nobility thus his y chromosome was most likely of IE origin just like most of the later european rulers.

There is almost no R1a in the Balkans from Indo Europeans and the R1a that does exist that isn't Slavic isn't the same clade as Slavs but more like the Bronze Age that was found in Bulgaria which seems to rather have a Indo-Iranian relation. IE people brought R1b-L23 / BY611 and some J into Europe and the Balkans like J2b2 L283, maybe some J2a also came with IE and some with Near Eastern migrations through Anatolia. Maybe some I2a2 also came during the Bronze Age.

Nobility back then and being of IE descent aren't even the same nor is there any correlation whatsoever.

The origin of IE people isn't even fully understood. Near Eastern / Neolithic people were probably the first IE speakers.

[Skif]

There is almost no R1a in the Balkans from Indo Europeans and the R1a that does exist that isn't Slavic isn't the same clade as Slavs but more like the Bronze Age that was found in Bulgaria which seems to rather have a Indo-Iranian relation. IE people brought R1b and some J into Europe and the Balkans. Maybe some I2a2 also.

Nobility back then and being of IE descent aren't even the same nor is there any correlation whatsoever.

The origin of IE people isn't even fully understood. Near Eastern / Neolithic people were probably the first IE speakers.

Never said it was slavic R1a.Near Eastern IE speakers lol?You base that on what exactly?

[Elwy]

J2 or E1b

[Freeroostah]

Alexander the Great was a member of the Argead dynasty (Argos) which probably makes him J2, E1b, or R1b

lmao with people who say I2 and R1a, they are clueless

[gıulıoımpa]

i am not an Expert but one should not fall in the equiparation between army and nobilty.

just like the first romans to descend the italian peninsula were r1b but Roman armies are famous to have left J2 in conquered territories the same is probably valid for the Army of Alexander.

[Outlaw]

Alexander the Great was a member of the Argead dynasty (Argos) which probably makes him J2, E1b, or R1b

lmao with people who say I2 and R1a, they are clueless

They just wanna claim historical figures that they have absolutely nothing to do with. Alexander was genetically like a modern Greek and Albanian basically. My bet would be he would plot around where a lot of Epirote and mainland Greeks, some Tosks and Southern Ghegs plot considering his mother was Epirote. But Macedonia was settled by Slavs later and modern Greek Macedonians are actually more Northern Shifted than Ancient Macedonians probably were.

Steppe or IE admixture probably was not even that strong in the Southern Balkans, the people there were autosomally majority Neolithic.

We have Mycanean samples that south and we have some Thracian Samples from Southern Bulgaria that plotted with Tuscans or south of Tuscans.


Hell, Alexander was possibly a very Southern shifted person. Maybe even more South than many mainland Greeks and Albanians.

Maybe he plotted with Abruzzo on K15.

[Bosniensis]

Alexander the Great was a member of the Argead dynasty (Argos) which probably makes him J2, E1b, or R1b

lmao with people who say I2 and R1a, they are clueless

I2 are Gauls, British Celts, Spanish Celts(I2a1), Illyrians (I2a2), Etruscans (I2a1a)

J2, E1b are Hellenic peoples like Alexander the Great.

Macedonian Empire, and Diadochi were mostly ruled by J2, Early Rome had both J2 and I2

[Skif]

Alexander the Great was a member of the Argead dynasty (Argos) which probably makes him J2, E1b, or R1b

lmao with people who say I2 and R1a, they are clueless

The Argead dynasty was of Dorian origin who came from the north so probably R1b. J2 and E1b makes little sense

[Outlaw]

Only way he could of been I2a is I2a2 which was found in Bronze Age Bulgaria and is found in Some Albanians and Greeks.

And R1a Z93 which was found in Bronze Age Bulgaria and which I also seen in few Greeks but is rare. YDNA frequencies are bottle neck effects. He could of also been G, T, J1 etc.


Other than that, he could of also been R1b BY611, EV13, J2a, J2b2 L283.

[Freeroostah]

I2 are Gauls, British Celts, Spanish Celts(I2a1), Illyrians (I2a2), Etruscans (I2a1a)

J2, E1b are Hellenic peoples like Alexander the Great.

Macedonian Empire, and Diadochi were mostly ruled by J2, Early Rome had both J2 and I2

Hellenic peoples were also R1b, especially the Doric stock

[Pubiczar]

Only way he could of been I2a is I2a2 which was found in Bronze Age Bulgaria and is found in Some Albanians and Greeks.

And R1a Z93 which was found in Bronze Age Bulgaria and which I also seen in few Greeks but is rare. YDNA frequencies are bottle neck effects. He could of also been G, T, J1 etc.


Other than that, he could of also been R1b BY611, EV13, J2a, J2b2 L283.

You talk like if I2a2 is not found in other people like Bulgarians or Macedonians for example...
All of those haplogroips are found in Macedonians and Bulgarians, even those rare R1a which occurs in Greeks.
Damn, even some clades under different haplogroups like E-Z17264 or E-S7461 or some J2a-L70 which are found in Greeks can be also found among Bulgarians and Macedonians but not in Albanians for some reason...

[Artek]

Well, he could have been basically anything that existed in the Balkans back then.

Do we really need more than 40 pages of a barren discussion?

I will be really happy if his tomb and body is ever found, no matter what his haplogroup and subbranch is.

[Papastratosels26]

Alexander was probably J2

[Bosniensis]

Well, he could have been basically anything that existed in the Balkans back then.

Do we really need more than 40 pages of a barren discussion?

I will be really happy if his tomb and body is ever found, no matter what his haplogroup and subbranch is.

Yes people mixed even in Ancient Times.

He was a Hellene and that's the only important info.

[DarknessWin]

He wasnt a commoner,he was part of the nobility thus his y chromosome was most likely of IE origin just like most of the later european rulers.

The nobility of IndoEuropeans were EV13 and EV13 were also part of IndoEuropeans, read some studies before make a post.
The rulers of IndoEuropeans were EV13 themselves and the rulers of Europe were also EV13 like Napoleon,Alexander,Hitler,Garibaldi etc.
You R1a and R1b mongols must calm down, i am I2 old european but i am feed up with all this crap indoeuroean R haplogroup theory

https://i.imgur.com/Bs7vEaT.png

[Imperator Biff]

The nobility of IndoEuropeans were EV13 and EV13 were also part of IndoEuropeans, read some studies before make a post.
The rulers of IndoEuropeans were EV13 themselves.

https://i.imgur.com/Bs7vEaT.png

No they were not fucking E-V13 lmao, not a single steppe sample has come back as that. No study shows this.
Stop shilling for that retard Maciamo’s theories. Elite status kurgan burials as far back as khyvalnsk were R1b.
And last time I checked Greek is an IE ‘mongol’ language.

[Artek]

The nobility of IndoEuropeans were EV13 and EV13 were also part of IndoEuropeans, read some studies before make a post.
The rulers of IndoEuropeans were EV13 themselves and the rulers of Europe were also EV13 like Napoleon,Alexander,Hitler,Garibaldi etc.
You R1a and R1b mongols must calm down, i am I2 old european but i am feed up with all this crap indoeuroean R haplogroup theory

Please stop trolling.

But in case someone reads this bullshit I'm quoting - Napoleon wasn't E-V13 but deep under E-M34 here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y58897/

[PaleoEuropean]

Almost certainly R1b, E1b, or J2a or b. I don't know or can't guess how likely it is that R1a was present in classical balkans. Most of it seems to be from Slav-speakers in the Middle ages.

I2 is the only true Balkan lineage. In all seriousness, he was mostly likely I2 or E the two dominant haplogroups in the region. Most the Slav dna came in via the Russian Empire and Soviets, even still it is a minority haplgroup cluster.

[MagnusDark]

I2 is the only true Balkan lineage. In all seriousness, he was mostly likely I2 or E the two dominant haplogroups in the region. Most the Slav dna came in via the Russian Empire and Soviets, even still it is a minority haplgroup cluster.

What????

I2a-Din/R1a(z280 more West Balkan and m458 more east Balkan) are the most dominant clades in southern Slavs. Only Bulgarians and Macedonians have less than other South Slavs but still about 40-50 percent. Montenegrins as well if you take into account the little to no R1a they have. Yet they do have over 30 percent of Slavic I2a-Din.

I2a-Din in Slavs is under CTS10228. Overwhelming majority under founder effects and bottlenecks is young Slavic clades. Including one z280/M458. None of which is found in any ancient Balkan samples. J2b/J2a/E-V13/R1b/G/T/ and even R1a-Z93 have been found. The only ancient Balkan I2 is I2a2a which is almost nonexistent in Sourhern Slavs outside of Pomaks Albanians and Greeks. Those lineages can be Alexander’s. He was likely R1b, J2a, E-V13 or maybe even J2b or Z93.

The only I2 in ancient Balkans was Paleolithic non indo-European and therefore cultureless matriarch societies. It also has no continuity with CTS10228 which spread with Slavs. Indo Europeans obliterated the Paleolithic and Neolithic communities. The progenitor if CTS10228 likely spread from north west Europe in the Neolithic moving east over time.

You can claim all you want that because I2a was in Paleolithic Balkans that it’s the same as all I2a, but that’s hogwash. With that thinking, the progenitors of all indo Europeans were just Siberian Mongoloids. It’s the clade in question not the ancestor. If he was I2a it surely has nothing to do with modern I2a, none of which would be direct descendants but only distantly related by proxy.

[PaleoEuropean]

What????

I2a-Din/R1a(z280 more West Balkan and m458 more east Balkan) are the most dominant clades in southern Slavs. Only Bulgarians and Macedonians have less than other South Slavs but still about 40-50 percent. I2a-Din in Slavs is under CTS10228. Overwhelming majority under founder effects and bottlenecks is young Slavic clades. Including one z280/M458. None of which is found in any ancient Balkan samples. J2b/J2a/E-V13/R1b/G/T/ and even R1a-Z93 have been found. The only ancient Balkan I2 is I2a2a which is almost nonexistent in Sourhern Slavs outside of Pomaks Albanians and Greeks. Those lineages can be Alexander’s. He was likely R1b, J2a, E-V13 or maybe even J2b or Z93.

The only I2 in ancient Balkans was Paleolithic non indo-European and therefore cultureless matriarch societies. It also has no continuity with CTS10228 which spread with Slavs. Indo Europeans obliterated the Paleolithic and Neolithic communities. The progenitor if CTS10228 likely spread from north west Europe in the Neolithic moving east over time.

You can claim all you want that because I2a was in Paleolithic Balkans that it’s the same as all I2a, but that’s hogwash. With that thinking, the progenitors of all indo Europeans were just Siberian Mongoloids. It’s the clade in question not the ancestor. If he was I2a it surely has nothing to do with modern I2a, none of which would be direct descendants but only distantly related by proxy.

It's okay to be an Iranian Aryan man, chill out

[MagnusDark]

It's okay to be an Iranian Aryan man, chill out

If the world made decisions based on the whims and wishes of the likes with you it would be absolute chaos. You need to deal with facts. Based on the evidence you’re not making much sense.

Indo-Aryans were more likely Z93, including R1b, some G, J1, and I think N are found in later indo Aryans tribes. Yet, looking at the regions they invaded, the overwhelming R1a in elite castes are an indication of Aryan tribes. I2a is not Aryan. Neither is Z280 or M458. Their common ancestor wasn’t Aryan either. That culture developed out of Z93 among other lineages.

[PaleoEuropean]

If the world made decisions based on the whims and wishes of the likes with you it would be absolute chaos. You need to deal with facts. Based on the evidence you’re not making much sense.

Indo-Aryans were more likely Z93, including R1b, some G, J1, and I think N are found in later indo Aryans tribes. Yet, looking at the regions they invaded, the overwhelming R1a in elite castes are an indication of Aryan tribes. I2a is not Aryan. Neither is Z280 or M458. Their common ancestor wasn’t Aryan either. That culture developed out of Z93 among other lineages.

I know I isn't Aryan, I is native to Europe. I am saying that R is faux-European. Also you are taking what I am saying to seriously.

[Epirus DNA]

J2 is most certainly nothing to do with ancient greeks. Ev13 likely isn't either, it is very much in clumps showing it is recent and invasive, and in areas we know there was settlement from albania etc. J1 is absolutely nothing to do with greeks.


The Minoans were J2
The Mycenaeans were J2

Minoan_Lasithi I0073
Y-DNA: J2a1i
GedMatch Kit Z445292

Mycenaean I9041
Y-DNA: J2a1i
GedMatch Kit Z667807

A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

The highest concentrations of J2a in Europe are found in Crete (32% of the population) and Calabria (26%). M319, one of the principal J2a1 subclades in Greece, Italy and Western Europe, reaches is maximum frequency in Crete (6-9%).
http://https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

https://i.imgur.com/4NnQAOK.jpg

[Epirus DNA]

Alexander was the one who first spread R1 genes into Persia/Iran and India…

Duh, c'mon, you guys should know this by now.

Most likely, Yes, I think Alexander's Army spread R.
In addition, Alexander's Army most likely spread G & J2 as well.

G, J2, & R is found in Pakistan, Pathan, Kalash, & Burusho

Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/

https://i.imgur.com/9rgPYte.jpg

[DarknessWin]

No they were not fucking E-V13 lmao, not a single steppe sample has come back as that. No study shows this.
Stop shilling for that retard Maciamo’s theories. Elite status kurgan burials as far back as khyvalnsk were R1b.
And last time I checked Greek is an IE ‘mongol’ language.

Who give a shit about steppe samples???
Indoeuropeans mixed with EV13 and J2 and make them their leaders.

You R1 pussies must accept the truth and shut the fuck up.
All great leaders were EV13 and J2 , even your nazi Hitler was EV13 among
other Napoleon, Alexander,Garibaldi, Vlad Tepes etc

[DarknessWin]

Please stop trolling.

But in case someone reads this bullshit I'm quoting - Napoleon wasn't E-V13 but deep under E-M34 here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y58897/

Its not troll you pussy , R1 = weak people without something great in their history.
Its true that your nobility were tall Balkanians

[Art23]

For sure R-CTS3402 :rolleyes:

[Unknown European]

From 296 Modern Northern Greeks from the Greek regions of Macedonia and Thrace where Alexander was from

I-21.6
R1a-18.2
R1b-13.2
E1b-20.6
G2-4.7
J2-14.9
J1-3.4
LT-2.7
Other-0.7

[jingorex]

he was a G.

[Ayetooey]

From 296 Modern Northern Greeks from the Greek regions of Macedonia and Thrace where Alexander was from

I-21.6
R1a-18.2
R1b-13.2
E1b-20.6
G2-4.7
J2-14.9
J1-3.4
LT-2.7
Other-0.7

Not a good representation, due to all the barbarian/slav invasions. No way Alexander was I2a or R1a; probably E-v13.

[Dorian]

he was a G.

Dasrite!

[Coastal Elite]

Not a good representation, due to all the barbarian/slav invasions. No way Alexander was I2a or R1a; probably E-v13.

Amen!

[MagnusDark]

From 296 Modern Northern Greeks from the Greek regions of Macedonia and Thrace where Alexander was from

I-21.6
R1a-18.2
R1b-13.2
E1b-20.6
G2-4.7
J2-14.9
J1-3.4
LT-2.7
Other-0.7

Most of those regions were depopulated and resettled by Slavs. I wouldn’t use them as a measuring stick for the past or for Alexander for that matter. He was most probably R1b, E-V13, J2b, J2a, G, T, R1a-Z93, I2a2a.

[MagnusDark]

Not a good representation, due to all the barbarian/slav invasions. No way Alexander was I2a or R1a; probably E-v13.

R1a-Z93, and I2a2a were found in Bronze Age Balkans. While a slim chance it’s not impossible to have belonged to them. Obviously different from I2a1b/Z280/M458.

[Ayetooey]

R1a-Z93, and I2a2a were found in Bronze Age Balkans. While a slim chance it’s not impossible to have belonged to them. Obviously different from I2a1b/Z280/M458.

Yes I2a2, there's even I2 in modern Egypt at an extremely low percentage due to the Greeks. But it's a rare clade, so if I was a betting man I'd say e-v13 or j2

[Papastratosels26]

J2

[Dorian]

Most of those regions were depopulated and resettled by Slavs. I wouldn’t use them as a measuring stick for the past or for Alexander for that matter. He was most probably R1b, E-V13, J2b, J2a, G, T, R1a-Z93, I2a2a.

Slavs my ass ,not denying any impact but they are overestimated...you know how you say your own Y is founder effect or as others say about autosomals that were intergrated in Vlach(and in our case Epirotan)groups? that's more likely the reason in this case too and not because all Greek disappeared then replaced etc..

[PaleoEuropean]

Yes I2a2, there's even I2 in modern Egypt at an extremely low percentage due to the Greeks. But it's a rare clade, so if I was a betting man I'd say e-v13 or j2

Also Some Galatians settled in Egypt.

[MagnusDark]

Yes I2a2, there's even I2 in modern Egypt at an extremely low percentage due to the Greeks. But it's a rare clade, so if I was a betting man I'd say e-v13 or j2

What I2a clade were they? Some Slavs did make it to Africa as mercenaries and slaves. In the kingdom of Nekor they rebelled and founded a city in the mountains. It’s being excavated as far as I know.

[MagnusDark]

Slavs my ass ,not denying any impact but they are overestimated...you know how you say your own Y is founder effect or as others say about autosomals that were intergrated in Vlach(and in our case Epirotan)groups? that's more likely the reason in this case too and not because all Greek disappeared then replaced etc..

Oh for sure. Just meant more clade specific. There’s already a Greek founder clade in I2a1b though rare. I’m sure some of them were Latinized Proto Slavs that arrived as Vlachs.

I don’t believe the straight forward tunnel vision narrative they compose. In my case probably a Proto Slav that was absorbed by Proto-Albanians and expanded with them taking part in the ethnogenesis.

I’m sure Ancient Greece prior to classical era had way more G and J2a than the classical era. They were still Greeks though. Regardless of the new arrivals.

Unless their Slavic matches are close it’s likely mostly founder effects from few tribes that remained and were hellenized in the early Middle Ages 7-8th centuries. Or Albanized in my case.

[Carpatz]

R1a