Which Y haplogroup did Alexander the Great belong to?

[poiuytrewq0987]

E-V13, J2 or... I1? :D

[Prisoner Of Ice]

r1a

[Weedman]

E-V13, J2 or... I1? :D

G2a or I2

just wanted to throw that out there......

LMFAO

[Pausanias]

Seeing the facial reconstruction of his father Filippos based on his DNA , we can guess that Alexandros was mediterranean phenotype, maybe dinarid.

http://www.thecultureconcept.com/circle/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Fearsome-Warrior-Phillip-II.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ce7EMMc1srA/maxresdefault.jpg

As so indicated by the Mosaic of Pompey, the Hair color of Alexander the Great was Brown to Black.. which was as is indicated by some, itself a copy of a painting done to Alexander by Apelles, while Alexander was in his youth and alive and well.. Apelles was not only a contemporary of Alexander and His father, Philip.. but also painted Alxander where he is holding Rods of lightning... and so the Mosaic is very faithful to the real hair color of Alexander given the fact that the Slavics of that area today, are mainly Dark haired people.. the same can be said about the skintone of Alexander, for in the mosaic of Pompey, as a copy of Apelles's painting who met Him.. Alexader is shown as Olive skinned, with large Mediterranean Dark eyes.. not that different than the Persians that he is fighting.... Those that say that he is "Blond and blue eyed" are too influenced by Hollywood's view of Alexander and not by Archaeology... are worse yet.. Nordicist, Racial fantasies...

http://greece.greekreporter.com/files/alexander-the-great.jpg

So if he was son of Filippos and not son of Zeus, then is very surely that he has an aspect like this:

http://i.imgur.com/UrOJWma.png

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4058/4649422800_91e1081be6_z.jpg

[Crn Volk]

Like modern Macedonians today

[Dombra]

R1a, I2 or I1

[Puppy]

Like modern Macedonians today

= Mako-chipsI2

[Sikeliot]

I2 or E1b probably.

[Crn Volk]

I2 or E1b probably.

Y-DNA of modern Macedonians

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?160383-Distribution-of-Y-chromosome-DNA-(Y-DNA)-haplogroups-of-ethnic-Macedonians

[Scholarios]

Almost certainly R1b, E1b, or J2a or b. I don't know or can't guess how likely it is that R1a was present in classical balkans. Most of it seems to be from Slav-speakers in the Middle ages.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Seeing the facial reconstruction of his father Filippos based on his DNA , we can guess that Alexandros was mediterranean phenotype, maybe dinarid.

http://www.thecultureconcept.com/circle/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Fearsome-Warrior-Phillip-II.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ce7EMMc1srA/maxresdefault.jpg

As so indicated by the Mosaic of Pompey, the Hair color of Alexander the Great was Brown to Black.. which was as is indicated by some, itself a copy of a painting done to Alexander by Apelles, while Alexander was in his youth and alive and well.. Apelles was not only a contemporary of Alexander and His father, Philip.. but also painted Alxander where he is holding Rods of lightning... and so the Mosaic is very faithful to the real hair color of Alexander given the fact that the Slavics of that area today, are mainly Dark haired people.. the same can be said about the skintone of Alexander, for in the mosaic of Pompey, as a copy of Apelles's painting who met Him.. Alexader is shown as Olive skinned, with large Mediterranean Dark eyes.. not that different than the Persians that he is fighting.... Those that say that he is "Blond and blue eyed" are too influenced by Hollywood's view of Alexander and not by Archaeology... are worse yet.. Nordicist, Racial fantasies...

http://greece.greekreporter.com/files/alexander-the-great.jpg

So if he was son of Filippos and not son of Zeus, then is very surely that he has an aspect like this:

http://i.imgur.com/UrOJWma.png

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4058/4649422800_91e1081be6_z.jpg

lol

What ridiculous crap. The rconstruction looks nothing like his busts. You brought out the lying bullshit 'alexander' portrait that's actually a picture of the roman emperor domitian, too. And of course he was known to be blond. Swarthy deranged madmen strike again.

No matter how many times I debunk something, you just bring it up again a few months later.

[Unome]

r1a

[Scholarios]

Why do people say R1a out of curiosity ? Underhill says more than once it coalesced around 700 AD in Balkans and most Balkan Clades are similar to West Slavic r1a.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Why do people say R1a out of curiosity ? Underhill says more than once it coalesced around 700 AD in Balkans and most Balkan Clades are similar to West Slavic r1a.

Molecular clock is psuedoscientific nonsense. Those most common recent ancestor dates don't mean the same thing aswhen it came into being anyhow. R1a is clinal from the north down. R1a is ancient in balkans.

J2 is most certainly nothing to do with ancient greeks. Ev13 likely isn't either, it is very much in clumps showing it is recent and invasive, and in areas we know there was settlement from albania etc. J1 is absolutely nothing to do with greeks.

It could be r1b as well or something random, but that is the choice I think is most likely.

[DarknessInside]

Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25163-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations)

[Scholarios]

Molecular clock is psuedoscientific nonsense. Those most common recent ancestor dates don't mean the same thing aswhen it came into being anyhow. R1a is clinal from the north down. R1a is ancient in balkans.

J2 is most certainly nothing to do with ancient greeks. Ev13 likely isn't either, it is very much in clumps showing it is recent and invasive, and in areas we know there was settlement from albania etc. J1 is absolutely nothing to do with greeks.

It could be r1b as well or something random, but that is the choice I think is most likely.



For first part, even if we take molecular clock as bogus( which amateur and " official" dates give the same number, ) the clades match * exactly * with those in Poland and Bohemia, East Germany- and so do tribal names -Serbs-Sorbs, Milengi-Milceni etc. given historical sources, the reason it's clinal is common sense. Slavs weakened and mixed as they moved through Danube valleys and Balkans. edit: Just now I recalled and checked, in Underhill's 2009 paper he uses standard molecular clock and comes up with some paleolithic origin of r1a in the Balkans- Polako and other amateurs who agree that molecular clock sucks, came up with 700 AD. I believe Underhill revises this in the 2014 paper, I believe)


Theres no reason to doubt j2existed in Ancient Greece and I still can't for the life of me understand why you make it a point to deny it even when I've posted several neutral studies on it. Even if we believe the elite dominance theories of Norse Dorians over native inhabitants it should still make sense.


I was just curious why people say R1a. Just because it's currently in Macedonia?

[Shqipez]

r1a

R1a came with proto-slavs.

He was EV-13 or J2.

[Neon Knight]

Y-rrior.

[Shqipez]

Molecular clock is psuedoscientific nonsense. Those most common recent ancestor dates don't mean the same thing aswhen it came into being anyhow. R1a is clinal from the north down. R1a is ancient in balkans.

J2 is most certainly nothing to do with ancient greeks. Ev13 likely isn't either, it is very much in clumps showing it is recent and invasive, and in areas we know there was settlement from albania etc. J1 is absolutely nothing to do with greeks.

It could be r1b as well or something random, but that is the choice I think is most likely.

Tha's when you're wrong. EV-13 and J2 is more ancient in the balkans than R1a, which came with proto-slavs during byzantium empire.. the Sclavenis settled around greek macedonia.. we are talking about 100,000's. I2a came with goths and the 2nd immigration of slavs, proto-croats and proto-serbs, which they picked up around the carpathian mountains and brought it with them to hte Balkans and so did some other slavic tribes that settled around bulgaria and romania... that leaves pretty much R1b, EV-13 and J2 in the balkans left.

We all know Illyrians were neither r1a or I2a... so they carried the same haplogroups as ancient greeks and Thracians which was mostly EV-13, J2 and R1b.

Alexanders mother was from south-Albania/North-Greece, she belonged to an Epirot tribe... most of I2a there is of slavic and goth immgiration the rest comes from ancient times. How did EV-13 and J2 become so dominant across the balkans if it's not ancient? It's not just from Ancient greeks... I could argue that some of EV-13, R1b and J2 in greeks is from Illyrians and Thracians. There was enough contact in ancient times.. I'm sure there would be enough historical evidence to prove an immigration/migration if EV-13 and J2 wasn't ancient, which you can with R1a and I2a, it lacks a lot in most ancient populations in the balkans except for where slavic and gothic tribes settled. It fits with historical records.

It doesn't matter if Alexander was blond haired. There are blond greeks and Albanians that probably carry EV-13 or J2. Y-DNA has nothing to do with how you look.. Y-DNA doesn't prove 100% ones ancestry. But that's not the point, the point is that I doubt he was blond haired... because blond haired in the balkans is something different than blond haired in west europe.. He most likely had brown hair and looked like a normal balkaner.. why would he look different? It's just western propganda.. they depict everything as blond haired and blue eyed... just like the blond Jesus.

It is said Alexander had one brown and one blue eye.

Your agenda is clear here.. You somehow think R1a and I2a are more ''european'' and that EV-13 and J2, since it's ancestors exist in Africa and middle east is not... but R1a also exists outside of Europe and so does I2a... that makes R1a much less European, with that logic applied. because a lot of it can be attributed to non-European tribes such as Scythians and Sarmatians.

Study some history a bit, and see for yourself where the ancient greeks and Illyrians went.. most of these regions is filled with EV-13 and J2. For example Apulia region of Italy is mostly EV-13, J2 and R1b... same area where Illyrians lived, such as the Messapi.... same goes for ancient greeks, they settled in north-africa and south italy and EV-13 exists in Africa in small amounts and in south Italy... of course some EV-13 existed already in italy, but who is to deny a lot of it also came with Illyrians and Greeks? There is barely any R1a or I2a in those regions compared to EV-13, R1b and J2.

How did EV-13 and J2 come to exist even in Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs and Romanians, Bulgarians? It doesn't fit with any historical records except that it was there already.

[Unome]

Alexander was the one who first spread R1 genes into Persia/Iran and India…

Duh, c'mon, you guys should know this by now.

[Scholarios]

Alexander was the one who first spread R1 genes into Persia/Iran and India…

Duh, c'mon, you guys should know this by now.

How exactly is that? The R1a of India, Persia, Kurdistan is totally different stuff than the R1a in the Balkans. That that is in the Balkans (the tiny minority) which is similar to Indian r1a is associated with gypsies. So.


http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/Lukasz/R1a-clades_zpsddacae9d.jpg

Which I guess you know...

[Unome]

How exactly is that? The R1a of India, Persia, Kurdistan is totally different stuff than the R1a in the Balkans.


http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/Lukasz/R1a-clades_zpsddacae9d.jpg

Which I guess you know...
2000 years is a long time… a lot of moving, wars, and emigration occurred between then and now.

The modern balkanite R1 population is negligible; they don't need a direction connection to prove anything.

[Scholarios]

2000 years is a long time… a lot of moving, wars, and emigration occurred between then and now.

The modern balkanite R1 population is negligible; they don't need a direction connection to prove anything.

I am really scratching my head on this one. So- let me get this straight:

The connection that makes you think Alexander was r1a is that it's found in Iran, India, etc. (where Alexander's armies went)



Alexander was the one who first spread R1 genes into Persia/Iran and India…

Yet, it was eradicated in the current Balkans? :confused: But it's not extinct in Greece at all- it still exists and most of it matches with West Slavs of today!

No offense bro, but you should re-think it. There is also autosomal evidence, as well as historical and archaeological. It's about as concrete as anything can be in historical genetics. Proto-Slavs brought it. (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2009/11/r1a1a7-signal-of-slavic-expansions-from.html)

[Unome]

It immediately and simply explains the spread of R1 without any unnecessary presumptions.

[Shqipez]

Alexander was the one who first spread R1 genes into Persia/Iran and India…

Duh, c'mon, you guys should know this by now.



R1a in India and Iran is ancient, it's a different clade it's ancestor of the one in Europe. it's older than the one in Europe.... R1a in Europe came from Iranic tribes and proto-slavs from India and Iran. Not the opposite.

Alexander the greats army wasn't just greeks... He had a lot of Thracians and Illyrians. Actually they might of constituted half of his army, especially Thracians. Ancient-Macedonians are of said to of been by some Illyrians-Thracians mixed with Greeks. Epirotans were also a contact zone between greeks and Illyrians... These things demonstrate greeks are also of Illyrian and Thracian ancestry.

You people are delusional.

[Shqipez]

It immediately and simply explains the spread of R1 without any unnecessary presumptions.

Actually EV-13 and J2 matches it perfectly. It's spread most places where ancient-balkanic people went.


R1a has been in balkan for thousand of year. So with R1b.. Alexander look like Brittish or Russian to me :)


R1b Yes, ... R1a came during Byzantium times and hasn't been around as long. Nothing like Russian, but keep being delusional :D

[Unome]

R1a in India and Iran is ancient, it's a different clade it's ancestor of the one in Europe. it's older than the one in Europe.... R1a in Europe came from Iranic tribes and proto-slavs from India and Iran. Not the opposite.
Alexander first brought R1 to Iran and India then it came back Westward centuries thereafter.

It went east, then west.

You aren't thinking in the context of hundreds and thousands of years. You need to make an accurate timeline, with causes and reasons.

[Shqipez]

I am really scratching my head on this one. So- let me get this straight:

The connection that makes you think Alexander was r1a is that it's found in Iran, India, etc. (where Alexander's armies went)




Yet, it was eradicated in the current Balkans? :confused: But it's not extinct in Greece at all- it still exists and most of it matches with West Slavs of today!

No offense bro, but you should re-think it. There is also autosomal evidence, as well as historical and archaeological. It's about as concrete as anything can be in historical genetics. Proto-Slavs brought it. (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2009/11/r1a1a7-signal-of-slavic-expansions-from.html)

Don't you get it These people are delusional. they want to identify with ''white pride'' and tell themselves some of the greatest people in history were close to them due to some haplogroup... They think R1a is more ''European'' :lol:

When I am telling you R1a and I2a came from Iranic tribes proto-slavic tribes... atleast R1a in Europe did. East Europe was a melting pot of Iranic, gothic and proto-slavic tribes... they are a result of this and brought it to the balkans, but in their little minds tell themselves Haplogoup E in Europe is less European, because it's ancestors exist outside, in africa, but so does R1a and R1b with that logic, R1a iS INDIAN and R1b IS CAMEROON :picard1:

[Shqipez]

Alexander first brought R1 to Iran and India then it came back Westward centuries thereafter.

It went east, then west.

You aren't thinking in the context of hundreds and thousands of years. You need to make an accurate timeline, with causes and reasons.

Alexanders army was made up of Illyrians, Thracians and Greeks.... So you're telling me most of these carried R1a? Then where in the balkans is it? Why does it mostly exist where Slavs settled? For example Greek macedonia, it's full of historical records that it was settled by proto-SLavs during byzantium empire, 100,000's atleast. and today R1a is high in these areas.

[Shqipez]

I2 and R1a Iran???? :rolleyes:

R1a was carried by Iranic tribes. I'm not 100% sure of I2a which might of been brought there by Goths, or by Both... Iranic tribes invaded east Europe, such as Scythians and Sarmatians. proto-Serbs and proto-Croats are an example of Proto-slavs mixing with goths and Iranic tribes, they then settled in the Balkans and brought more R1a and I2a with them, some of it already existed from pre settlements such as Goths and Proto-Slavs like the Sclavenis.

[Unome]

You're not thinking in the context of time… it doesn't matter how many of Alexander's army carried Y-haplogroups. What matters most is which of those groups survived the longest over centuries. Spreading a gene is not the same as cultivating it. Cultivation requires civilization.

What is the longest legacy of Alexander's armies? He created a bunch of cities: Alexandria. He civilized many places. These were the cultivation centers which lived long-after the armies came and went.

[Faklon]

My guess is Ev13,R1b-Z2103 or J2b.


For first part, even if we take molecular clock as bogus( which amateur and " official" dates give the same number, ) the clades match * exactly * with those in Poland and Bohemia, East Germany- and so do tribal names -Serbs-Sorbs, Milengi-Milceni etc. given historical sources, the reason it's clinal is common sense. Slavs weakened and mixed as they moved through Danube valleys and Balkans. edit: Just now I recalled and checked, in Underhill's 2009 paper he uses standard molecular clock and comes up with some paleolithic origin of r1a in the Balkans- Polako and other amateurs who agree that molecular clock sucks, came up with 700 AD. I believe Underhill revises this in the 2014 paper, I believe)


Theres no reason to doubt j2existed in Ancient Greece and I still can't for the life of me understand why you make it a point to deny it even when I've posted several neutral studies on it. Even if we believe the elite dominance theories of Norse Dorians over native inhabitants it should still make sense.


I was just curious why people say R1a. Just because it's currently in Macedonia?

What about CTS1211 though?

Matches a lot of people that were described as "Veneti" but not really prominent in Lusatia.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png


There is also autosomal evidence

Which?


http://i.imgur.com/UrOJWma.png

Half-Slavolachic but overall close to the Palikaroid subtype of the Slavovlachic race,Tsamikos killer.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ui-xSHcsHV4/maxresdefault.jpg

[Scholarios]

You're not thinking in the context of time… it doesn't matter how many of Alexander's army carried Y-haplogroups. What matters most is which of those groups survived the longest over centuries. Spreading a gene is not the same as cultivating it. Cultivation requires civilization.

What is the longest legacy of Alexander's armies? He created a bunch of cities: Alexandria. He civilized many places. These were the cultivation centers which lived long-after the armies came and went.

This doesn't even make sense in it's own context. R1a in Persia and India is a different Clade. There is absolutely no evidence that it has anything to do with Alexander!! For Christ's sakes, its like 60% in Tajikistan ! Alexander's cities in India and Central Asia were no more than outposts.

[Shqipez]

You're not thinking in the context of time… it doesn't matter how many of Alexander's army carried Y-haplogroups. What matters most is which of those groups survived the longest over centuries. Spreading a gene is not the same as cultivating it. Cultivation requires civilization.

What is the longest legacy of Alexander's armies? He created a bunch of cities: Alexandria. He civilized many places. These were the cultivation centers which lived long-after the armies came and went.

So you're telling me most of Indias and Irans R1a comes from Alexander the greats army? Then explain to me why the R1 in India and Iran is different and older than the one in Europe?

[Shqipez]

Serbians, Bulgarians,, and Greek who is Russia and Brittish... Hmm

What? I don't understand what you mean with this sentence... but ancient balkanic people have nothing to do with Slavs or Russians.

EV-13 exist in North-africa and middle eaast from alexanders army. it exists in small percentage... some of EV-13 ,J2 and R1b in Italy came also from Illyrians and ancient greeks.

explain to me why R1a and I2a is mostly associated with slavs and slavic settlements? Some of I2a in the balkans came with goths, and r1a with sclavenis before 2nd slavic immigrations brought more of R1a and I2a from Carpathian mountains/East, central europe.

[Scholarios]

My guess is Ev13,R1b-Z2103 or J2b.



What about CTS1211 though?

Matches a lot of people that were described as "Veneti" but not really prominent in Lusatia.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png


Maybe, but if so it's still only like 5% of 15%. And I am willing to bet it was brought also by Slavs (though itself isn't directly associated with them). Actually, I don't doubt there was some R1a in Greece before Middle Ages, what I was curious about genuinely is why everyone says R1a is a probable clade of Alexander. I am sure J2, E1b, R1b, and and maybe even G2a were more common in Ancient Macedonia. Until we get some ydna out of Argead tombs, we can only guess. But still, we might as well say Ancient Macedonians were Slavs if we are going to say they were R1a1.

[Faklon]

Both Ev13 and J2b match Doric Greek settlements in Italy and have some frequency along Iranic plains(although it's possible that it may have been derived earlier).

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

[Zmey Gorynych]

Whatever greeks have that's probably what Alexander had.


Why do people say R1a out of curiosity ? Underhill says more than once it coalesced around 700 AD in Balkans and most Balkan Clades are similar to West Slavic r1a.
Because R1a is Ar1an. Some people can't handle the fact that a medish southerner conquered half of the then known world.

[Full_Frontal]

lol

What ridiculous crap. The rconstruction looks nothing like his busts. You brought out the lying bullshit 'alexander' portrait that's actually a picture of the roman emperor domitian, too. And of course he was known to be blond. Swarthy deranged madmen strike again.

No matter how many times I debunk something, you just bring it up again a few months later.

No, that is the facial reconstruction of his father, Phillip the second. The skull was used for the features and dna for pigmentation but that is as much as they could do with him. There are no busts of Phillip II-and of course this doesn't mean that all busts are 100% correct. Alexander has had many busts, all of which depict him differently. In some his eyes look deformed. So his father was dark according to results and Alexander was depicted as dark.

As for the fresco: it was made in 100 BC...but Domitian was born in 50 AD. So they predicted Domitian and put him in Alexander's place against the Persians? This is the first time I heard of this.



R1a cannot be his DNA as all of balkan R1a is a mutation that was brought from slavonic invaders in the balkans. See Underhill 2009, the results are crystal clear and it includes mutation dates. A certain eastern R1b clade is the only ancient greek and ancient balkanite R clade. The rest is all neolithic and late neolithic such as I2, E and J2 that are all in places where no middle easterner ever stepped on in historic times.

Attributing persian or gypsy-iranian r1a clade to ancient macedonians because they migrated to gypsyland would not make them russians but gypsies. And there is no middle eastern input that ever brought R clades anywhere. This Unome is certainly too stupid to realize this. There is also J2b where Alexander went and in India also in the upper brahmana caste and J2a also. I think it is either of those.

[Full_Frontal]

look j2b in russia... more concetrate then in greece and albania :)

Yes some J2 clades came with indoeuropeans but look where they are today. All in the balkans and particularly albania, south greece and places where south greeks had colonies.

So a group of non-Russians (Udmurts) in Russia carries a greek clade that no one else in the world has but balkanites and southern europeans in greece and italy. Romanians are more like Alexander than any Russian, German or Briton.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Tha's when you're wrong. EV-13 and J2 is more ancient in the balkans than R1a, which came with proto-slavs during byzantium empire.. the Sclavenis settled around greek macedonia.. we are talking about 100,000's. I2a came with goths and the 2nd immigration of slavs, proto-croats and proto-serbs, which they picked up around the carpathian mountains and brought it with them to hte Balkans and so did some other slavic tribes that settled around bulgaria and romania... that leaves pretty much R1b, EV-13 and J2 in the balkans left.

We all know Illyrians were neither r1a or I2a... so they carried the same haplogroups as ancient greeks and Thracians which was mostly EV-13, J2 and R1b.

Alexanders mother was from south-Albania/North-Greece, she belonged to an Epirot tribe... most of I2a there is of slavic and goth immgiration the rest comes from ancient times. How did EV-13 and J2 become so dominant across the balkans if it's not ancient? It's not just from Ancient greeks... I could argue that some of EV-13, R1b and J2 in greeks is from Illyrians and Thracians. There was enough contact in ancient times.. I'm sure there would be enough historical evidence to prove an immigration/migration if EV-13 and J2 wasn't ancient, which you can with R1a and I2a, it lacks a lot in most ancient populations in the balkans except for where slavic and gothic tribes settled. It fits with historical records.

It doesn't matter if Alexander was blond haired. There are blond greeks and Albanians that probably carry EV-13 or J2. Y-DNA has nothing to do with how you look.. Y-DNA doesn't prove 100% ones ancestry. But that's not the point, the point is that I doubt he was blond haired... because blond haired in the balkans is something different than blond haired in west europe.. He most likely had brown hair and looked like a normal balkaner.. why would he look different? It's just western propganda.. they depict everything as blond haired and blue eyed... just like the blond Jesus.

It is said Alexander had one brown and one blue eye.

Your agenda is clear here.. You somehow think R1a and I2a are more ''european'' and that EV-13 and J2, since it's ancestors exist in Africa and middle east is not... but R1a also exists outside of Europe and so does I2a... that makes R1a much less European, with that logic applied. because a lot of it can be attributed to non-European tribes such as Scythians and Sarmatians.

Study some history a bit, and see for yourself where the ancient greeks and Illyrians went.. most of these regions is filled with EV-13 and J2. For example Apulia region of Italy is mostly EV-13, J2 and R1b... same area where Illyrians lived, such as the Messapi.... same goes for ancient greeks, they settled in north-africa and south italy and EV-13 exists in Africa in small amounts and in south Italy... of course some EV-13 existed already in italy, but who is to deny a lot of it also came with Illyrians and Greeks? There is barely any R1a or I2a in those regions compared to EV-13, R1b and J2.

How did EV-13 and J2 come to exist even in Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs and Romanians, Bulgarians? It doesn't fit with any historical records except that it was there already.

They are more european. It's not an agenda it's a fact. They are only a tiny part of europe, and J2 is not european in any sense.

If J2 were ancient it would be everywhere that they settled in numbers, which is all of southern and east med pretty much. And it's not.

J2 has a lot in sicily, which was conquered by muslims. That's where it comes from, that's all there is to it.

Same idea applies to ev-13. It is concentrated in certain areas, therefore recent.



How did EV-13 and J2 come to exist even in Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs and Romanians, Bulgarians? It doesn't fit with any historical records except that it was there already.

It came to europe in neolithic, but its highest concentration is not even in greece so how the fuck can it be greek? It exists in clumps and mainly in the many many areas that were settled by nongreeks.

R1a is even in greece, and clinal. There was no such thing as slavic invasian having any mark on greece. Some slaves settled in area around sparta, and they were defeated and sold as slaves outside of byzantine empire.

The same r1a exists all through anatolia too, very evenly spread. Are you fucking telling me slavs invaded there, too? The r1a may be 'proto-slavic' but it comes from thousands of years ago. That is the only possibility.

[Shqipez]

illyrians are serbians and bosnian

thracian are bulgaria..

greece is with brittish and russian...... you should know..

Bosnians = Slavs... 60% i2a... which came with goths and slavs. their 2nd biggest haplogroup is majorly R1a, which also came with Slavs. they have 10% EV-13 and minor R1b maybe which is from Illyrians....

Same goes for Croats, 70% i2a and high R1a... all slavs, goths, Sarmatians.

Serbs = Slavs mixed with vlachs and Albanians.

Bulgarians = Slavs mixed with Thracian populations, probably romanized... I2a and R1a in bulgarians comes from Slavs. EV-13, r1b and j2 in bulgarians comes from Thracians

As you can see, R1a and I2a is mostly associated with Slavs and populations which they mixed with such as Goths and Sarmatians/Scythians.

[Shqipez]

Both Ev13 and J2b match Doric Greek settlements in Italy and have some frequency along Iranic plains(although they may have been derived earlier).

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

Some of it also was from Illyrians... take a look at apulia region in italy where the Illyrians lived.

[Scholarios]

They are more european. It's not an agenda it's a fact. They are only a tiny part of europe, and J2 is not european in any sense.

If J2 were ancient it would be everywhere that they settled in numbers, which is all of southern and east med pretty much. And it's not.

J2 has a lot in sicily, which was conquered by muslims. That's where it comes from, that's all there is to it.


This is so obtuse.


The presence or absence of genetic heterogeneity in Sicily has long been debated. Through the analysis of the variation of Y-chromosome lineages, using the combination of haplogroups and short tandem repeats from several areas of Sicily, we show that traces of genetic flows occurred in the island, due to ancient Greek colonization and to northern African contributions, are still visible on the basis of the distribution of some lineages. The genetic contribution of Greek chromosomes to the Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37% whereas the contribution of North African populations is estimated to be around 6%. (my note, this makes absolute sense given the historical record and timeframe in which Greeks colonized Sicily vs when and how North Africans did)
In particular, the presence of a modal haplotype coming from the southern Balkan Peninsula and of its one-step derivates associated to E3b1a2-V13, supports a common genetic heritage between Sicilians and Greeks. The estimate of Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor is about 2380 years before present, which broadly agrees with the archaeological traces of the Greek classic era. The Eastern and Western part of Sicily appear to be significantly different by the chi2-analysis, although the extent of such differentiation is not very high according to an analysis of molecular variance. The presence of a high number of different haplogroups in the island makes its gene diversity to reach about 0.9. The general heterogeneous composition of haplogroups in our Sicilian data is similar to the patterns observed in other major islands of the Mediterranean, reflecting the complex histories of settlements in Sicily.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18685561

peer reviewed finality.

[Full_Frontal]

The same r1a exists all through anatolia too, very evenly spread. Are you fucking telling me slavs invaded there, too? The r1a may be 'proto-slavic' but it comes from thousands of years ago. That is the only possibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor_Slavs

Yes, the byzantines settled many slavs in anatolia. In Bithynia and Nicaea, northwestern Turkey, they were the most common non-greek speaking minority. Thomas the Slav, a byzantine rebel, raised an army of 50.000 slavs from modern Turkey back then.

And of course it is clinal in greece-the major slavic settlements were in Macedonia then spread southwards. Some parts of the Peloponnese were slavic speaking even under Ottoman times. The slavs traded in the byzantine empire were mostly caught from the Ukraine or the Adriatic-many of them were also non slavic north european that the byzantines called "slavic".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Byzantine_Empire

[Prisoner Of Ice]

For first part, even if we take molecular clock as bogus( which amateur and " official" dates give the same number, ) the clades match * exactly * with those in Poland and Bohemia, East Germany- and so do tribal names -Serbs-Sorbs, Milengi-Milceni etc. given historical sources, the reason it's clinal is common sense. Slavs weakened and mixed as they moved through Danube valleys and Balkans. edit: Just now I recalled and checked, in Underhill's 2009 paper he uses standard molecular clock and comes up with some paleolithic origin of r1a in the Balkans- Polako and other amateurs who agree that molecular clock sucks, came up with 700 AD. I believe Underhill revises this in the 2014 paper, I believe)


That doesn't mean anything, really. The molecular clock means nothing for this even if you believe it's true. I already said TMRCA does not mean when it forms. It doesn't, period. It's useless for this kind of argument.




Theres no reason to doubt j2existed in Ancient Greece


There's tons of reason, for example not existing on crete. WHOOPS. So if mycenaeans settled crete and it's not on crete, that's it game over. Now j2 could have come in hellenic times but it would still be a minor influence, not the main greek clade.



and I still can't for the life of me understand why you make it a point to deny it even when I've posted several neutral studies on it.


Because it's impossible, and because studies that support something that doesn't make your case (molecular clock crap) have no bearing on anything.

Show me a study with J2 y-dna being a huge part of all of europe, and some ancient J2 samples in greece and you will have supported your case. All the mtdna for ancient greeks points to people that are not like any people who have J2 as their main clades. The people who have it today are descendents of horseridery people similar to turks. See where this is going? The obvious place, the only possibility. The only reason greeks deny it is they don't want any part of turk influence. But that is just ridiculous fantasy.



Even if we believe the elite dominance theories of Norse Dorians over native inhabitants it should still make sense.

I was just curious why people say R1a. Just because it's currently in Macedonia?

The people in small towns in greece are whiter than the ones in big cities, yet you claim the rural, whiter ones are the invaders. Greeks as a whole have some amazing complected insanity that makes them completely unable to see the obvious.

[Shqipez]

They are more european. It's not an agenda it's a fact. They are only a tiny part of europe, and J2 is not european in any sense.

If J2 were ancient it would be everywhere that they settled in numbers, which is all of southern and east med pretty much. And it's not.

J2 has a lot in sicily, which was conquered by muslims. That's where it comes from, that's all there is to it.

Same idea applies to ev-13. It is concentrated in certain areas, therefore recent.



It came to europe in neolithic, but its highest concentration is not even in greece so how the fuck can it be greek? It exists in clumps and mainly in the many many areas that were settled by nongreeks.

R1a is even in greece, and clinal. There was no such thing as slavic invasian having any mark on greece. Some slaves settled in area around sparta, and they were defeated and sold as slaves outside of byzantine empire.

The same r1a exists all through anatolia too, very evenly spread. Are you fucking telling me slavs invaded there, too? The r1a may be 'proto-slavic' but it comes from thousands of years ago. That is the only possibility.


How is R1a more ''European'' ? When a lot of it that exists in Slavs might of been spread by Scythians/Sarmatians, IRANIC TRIBES.

R1a exists in Anatolia from 1. KURDS or if it's the same as the one in the balkans it existst from BALKAN MUSLIMS, such as slavic muslims that settled there during ottoman empire or after their fall when the republic of turkey was created. and it could also be attributed to slavic settlements before that.

There were proto-slavic settlements in the balkans... the same areas where R1a and I2a is high is recorded to of been settled by Goths and Slavs. :lol: For example the Sclavenis invaded Byzantium with 100,000's and settled in greek macedonia and also FYROM, and they created a Slavic macedonia before being asimilated, these were proto-slavs and carried MAJORLY R1a.

J2 is ancient, it is everywhere where they settled... it exists in Italy and so does EV-13, it exists outside of Europe in small numbers from ancient greek settlements. it doesn't just exist in italy from ''non-european'' settlements as the ancient greek influence of italy has been bigger than non-european.. and we are talking about different clades here than the ones outside of europe

I never said EV-13 is only ''greek''... Maybe if you read some history you would see a lot of regions in the balkans were contact zones between greeks, illyrians and thracians... so EV-13 isn't just greek itself. it can be attributed to ancient balkanic populations together with R1b and J2 in general.

[Full_Frontal]

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png

here you can see r1a in turkey

The stronghold is the place where most slavs were settled and use as marines or soldiers. Slavs from the balkans were used as warriors, slavs from elsewhere or northern people just called slavic for lack of a better name were sold in the slave trade. But none of the slaves came from inside the empire.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Don't you get it These people are delusional. they want to identify with ''white pride'' and tell themselves some of the greatest people in history were close to them due to some haplogroup... They think R1a is more ''European'' :lol:

When I am telling you R1a and I2a came from Iranic tribes proto-slavic tribes... atleast R1a in Europe did. East Europe was a melting pot of Iranic, gothic and proto-slavic tribes... they are a result of this and brought it to the balkans, but in their little minds tell themselves Haplogoup E in Europe is less European, because it's ancestors exist outside, in africa, but so does R1a and R1b with that logic, R1a iS INDIAN and R1b IS CAMEROON :picard1:

R1a in greece is not paired with I2a, they have separate concentrations.

I2a comes from the balkans not from the slavs. I mean jesus christ just look at where it's concentrated :rolleyes:

Slavs picked this up from balkans.

I2a also doesn't exist in anatolia but this same r1a does. So your idiotic theory is more busted that your sister's hymen after EU forces you to take refugees into your house.

[Full_Frontal]

There's tons of reason, for example not existing on crete. WHOOPS. So if mycenaeans settled crete and it's not on crete, that's it game over. Now j2 could have come in hellenic times but it would still be a minor influence, not the main greek clade.



Because it's impossible, and because studies that support something that doesn't make your case (molecular clock crap) have no bearing on anything.

Show me a study with J2 y-dna being a huge part of all of europe, and some ancient J2 samples in greece and you will have supported your case. All the mtdna for ancient greeks points to people that are not like any people who have J2 as their main clades. The people who have it today are descendents of horseridery people similar to turks. See where this is going? The obvious place, the only possibility. The only reason greeks deny it is they don't want any part of turk influence. But that is just ridiculous fantasy.

http://www.google.de/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TRDzeciDNRI/AAAAAAAADE8/DOUK_yoPIJ8/s1600/journal.pone.0015283.g003.png&sa=X&ei=7zlHVY_LMYjdaub5gbAH&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNH_Hubh_y9RImc7nxkUz_8f_voOCw


Crete is the hotspot of J2 in the entire mediterannean. It is greek as it centers in a greek region.

[Faklon]

The same r1a exists all through anatolia too, very evenly spread. Are you fucking telling me slavs invaded there, too? The r1a may be 'proto-slavic' but it comes from thousands of years ago. That is the only possibility.

There are many mentions for Slavs in Anatolia but still M458 seems absent.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

When it fits the localities of the Slavic tribes.

http://s2.postimg.org/y56xlyfex/M458.png


Some of it also was from Illyrians... take a look at apulia region in italy where the Illyrians lived.

Dorians are frequently regarded as a Greco-"Illyrian" tribe anyway.

[Scholarios]

That doesn't mean anything, really. The molecular clock means nothing for this even if you believe it's true. I already said TMRCA does not mean when it forms. It doesn't, period. It's useless for this kind of argument.




There's tons of reason, for example not existing on crete. WHOOPS. So if mycenaeans settled crete and it's not on crete, that's it game over. Now j2 could have come in hellenic times but it would still be a minor influence, not the main greek clade.

First of all-j2 exists in Crete:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--SgfQ_zyYv4/Td42Z9WIaUI/AAAAAAAAGq4/R46gxf-Fs7Q/s1600/Haplogroup-J2+Map.jpg Actually it's around 30%.

And again, because you are quite slippery on this topic: If Myceneans practice elite dominance (like you claim in the Spartan stuff) then tell me- what was the majority pelagsian population ydna if not J2?? Now mix em up over a thousand years and even the majority of elite have J2 or ev-13 clades. I mean, when I was in USA in walmart, I saw at least a half dozen mullatoes everytime. And that's only in like 150 years since slavery ended.



.


Show me a study with J2 y-dna being a huge part of all of europe, and some ancient J2 samples in greece and you will have supported your case. All the mtdna for ancient greeks points to people that are not like any people who have J2 as their main clades. The people who have it today are descendents of horseridery people similar to turks. See where this is going? The obvious place, the only possibility. The only reason greeks deny it is they don't want any part of turk influence. But that is just ridiculous fantasy.

MTDNA is not relevant really for this topic. We are talking about ydna. Even my mom is H9 and it's associated with as disparate regions as Russia and Italy!! These are too tricky to link directly to ancient historical civilizations and it gets us off the topic at hand.
And why would J2 be all over Europe? I said it is associated, in part, with Classical Greeks. That's why it's in Sicily and South Italy. It's pretty damned obvious from the maps that have been shown. It's also supported by not only myself and Greeks, but in general. No one thinks its from Arabs or whatever except maybe the guy I work with who says he's a historian from watching History Channel.



The people in small towns in greece are whiter than the ones in big cities, yet you claim the rural, whiter ones are the invaders. Greeks as a whole have some amazing complected insanity that makes them completely unable to see the obvious.

Such kinds of nonsense are purely irrelevant for two reasons. First, I was born and raised in Greece and I have no idea what you are talking about. Second, Greeks have moved all over the place and the major cities were populated from the countryside in recent times.

Whether you know it or not, this thread is a massacre for you, sorry to say:

https://deadliestblogpage.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/killing-merceneries.jpg?w=461&h=583

[Shqipez]

R1a in greece is not paired with I2a, they have separate concentrations.

I2a comes from the balkans not from the slavs. I mean jesus christ just look at where it's concentrated :rolleyes:

Slavs picked this up from balkans.

I2a also doesn't exist in anatolia but this same r1a does. So your idiotic theory is more busted that your sister's hymen after EU forces you to take refugees into your house.

I2a doesn't come from the balkans, it's been already proven it came from Carpathian mountains/Poland area... they found the ancestral in Poland. Slavs picked it up there and brought it to Balkans.

I2a does exist in antolia in small percentage and can be attributed to balkan muslim settlements. so can EV-13 and J2 in Anatolia.

it barely exists among greeks and Albanians except for where goths or slavs settled. It's like 3% in Kosovar albanians and 12% in Albania.. it's mostly associated with slavic speaking populations or Goths... it could of been brought by Gothic settlements and also by 2nd slavic settlements. The I2a in Albanians came most likely from Goths. Maybe the one in greece too?

It's actually concentrated in Ukraine/Moldova area, the same place where it was supposedly picked up by proto-Croats, Bulgars and Proto-Serbs, before migrating to the Balkans.

I never said r1a and i2a in greece are paired. they are not neccessarily... R1a in greece came from proto-slavs. I2a in greece came with slavic empires after the 2nd slavic immigrations. Maybe some of it in albania did too... I'm not 100% sure of this all, as it's hard to prove, since Slavs themselves picked up I2a around east europe, from goths themselves and brought it to the balkans for a 2nd time.

Explain to me how EV-13 and J2 even exists in Bulgarians, Macedonian-Slavs, Bosnians, Croats, Serbs and Even Romanians? That's because it was already there before I2a and R1a came along.

[Qara]

haplogroup O3

[Full_Frontal]

Crete is the STRONGHOLD of J2 in the entire REGION

http://www.google.de/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TRDzeciDNRI/AAAAAAAADE8/DOUK_yoPIJ8/s1600/journal.pone.0015283.g003.png&sa=X&ei=7zlHVY_LMYjdaub5gbAH&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNH_Hubh_y9RImc7nxkUz_8f_voOCw


The only other strongholds are non MENA parts in the middle east. It is clearly late neolithic and it centers on Crete, where the Minoan culture was based. The greek subclades of J2 also match exactly with Sicily and other colonies but not middle eastern or MENA countries.

Remember this well: balkans do the rape, they don't get raped.

[Unome]

So you're telling me most of Indias and Irans R1a comes from Alexander the greats army? Then explain to me why the R1 in India and Iran is different and older than the one in Europe?
Because they're not "older".

[Full_Frontal]

Because they're not "older".

you are stupid and don't even know that you don't know

all r1a in greece is slavonic and the exact mutation date is that of the slavonic invasions-read underhill 2009 nerd

alexander cannot have been r1a if you read my posts in this thread as r1a did not exist before slavs were settled as soldiers in the empire

you pathetic subhuman cocksuckers are making alexander an irano-gypsy-indid by giving him r1a clades that don't even exist in europe but are all extra european and don't exist within 1000 miles of the balkans

[Unome]

Way to get emotional bro,

How else could R1 spread so far, from Ancient Macedonia to Persia to India? The answer is pretty obvious now.

[Highlands]

H like jatts.

[Shqipez]

But here is the thing though, i2a also exists HIGH in Iranic tribes such as the Kurds and Iranians and other peoples of the Caucasus, the same areas where Scythians and Sarmatians lived. The same delusional people who argue that R1a is ''ancient-balkanic'' are the same delusional ones that argue Europeans brought i2a to Iranians :D I'm actually quite positive it's the opposite. Or am I wrong here?

[Full_Frontal]

Way to get emotional bro,

How else could R1 spread so far, from Ancient Macedonia to Persia to India? The answer is pretty obvious now.

through andranovo rapes

two different steppe groups

yamna rapes south europe and bring r1b l23 as shown by recent studies and old anthro

andranovo rapes persia then comes to east europe as the scythians and assorted tribes, rapes there too. herodotus said that scythians were newcomers in the steppe as well, once again confirming genetic data.

then after 2000 years of y-dna mutation, slavs come down and become soldiers for the empire, spread their R1a clade which is the entirety of every greek r1a ever

unless you can unmake the r1a makeup of andranovo rape formations and their connection to iran, i have you there

[Shqipez]

Bad post not true.

Albanians is slav or greek?.

It's actually very true. Why would Albanians be Slavs or Greeks? They have their own culture and language, neither greek or slavic. But they have a lot of things in common with greeks, both in culture and customes because Thracians, greeks and Illyrians were constantly in contact together, if you read some history you'll see for yourself.

Illyrians and Thracians carried EV-13, J2 and R1b.. just like ancient greeks. R1a and I2a came later with slavic and gothic settlements.

EV-13 for example is still high in Bulgarians... because this comes from thracian or romanized thracians. the i2a and r1a comes from slavs.

how else would you explain the high EV-13 and J2 in some south slavs?

[Unome]

Noooooo… the Scythians came long after Alexander's crusade.

Hundreds of years afterward, not before.

[Scholarios]

through andranovo rapes

two different steppe groups

yamna rapes south europe and bring r1b l23 as shown by recent studies and old anthro

andranovo rapes persia then comes to east europe as the scythians and assorted tribes, rapes there too. herodotus said that scythians were newcomers in the steppe as well, once again confirming genetic data.

then after 2000 years of y-dna mutation, slavs come down and become soldiers for the empire, spread their R1a clade which is the entirety of every greek r1a ever

unless you can unmake the r1a makeup of andranovo rape formations and their connection to iran, i have you there


Absolutely correct.


But I think the subhumanism is strong in these ones. Too late for them.

[Gaston]

I'm guessing a unique y-dna lineage for a unique historical figure: A3b2, C, F, K* or P. :cool:


Seriously, anything is possible apart from medieval Slavic lineages. I bet it would be E1b1b1 (V-13 particularly) because it's one of the most common lineages in the balkans and because we already know a couple of E1b1b1 leaders (de facto nutjobs?) like Napoleon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler particularly.

[Full_Frontal]

Noooooo… the Scythians came long after Alexander's crusade.

Hundreds of years afterward, not before.

negro wat

scythians were already in herodotus' works who was actually born way before the peloponesian war which was way before phillip ii, alexander's father was born

you have the sequence of rapes all wrong!

in case you haven't understood, you are connecting your r1a to gypsy r1a, thus becoming a gypsy yourself. if you do that i might have to kill you and rape your family and i don't want that bro.

[Pausanias]

lol

What ridiculous crap. The rconstruction looks nothing like his busts. You brought out the lying bullshit 'alexander' portrait that's actually a picture of the roman emperor domitian, too. And of course he was known to be blond. Swarthy deranged madmen strike again.

No matter how many times I debunk something, you just bring it up again a hlater.

Keep having wet dreams.

First of all, the reconstruction of Filippos is based on DNA proves found in his rests in Vergina.

And second, the only draw with colour of Alexander during he was alive, drawed him clearly dark, with brown/black hair and dark eyes.

[Shqipez]

Because they're not "older".

LOL.

Show me a map, study or something that proves the R1a in indians and Iranians comes from Europeans?

besides, someones Y-DNA ain't neccessarily got anything to do with what they look like.

[Scholarios]

bad boy ancient illyrians is I2, ancient greeks is r1a


What you are actually doing is sucking the balls of Western Romantic Imperialism. Maybe you don't know it. The R1a's were Slavs and anything else is anti-Slav nonsense. Slavs don't need to be associated with the Classical world to be glorious. They are by their very nature glorious, but their DNA is relatively new in the Balkans. This is supported by anthro and historical evidence.

Goodnight.

[Dombra]

hmm i1 interesting.. could be.. could be :)

Ancient I1 is present throughout Europe, even if it not the same extent as in the north. I1 is much likelier than Alexander being J or E, slave and recent hablos :bow00001: R1a from Aryan masters is still the most likely

[Unome]

I'm talking about the spread of Northern R1 along the Steppes… that was long after Alexander, not before.

[Shqipez]

bad boy ancient illyrians is I2, ancient greeks is r1a

It's already been disproven it's not. you just keep repeating the same shit over and over again. it's much less in Albanians for example, both i2a and r1a. it's mostly associated with slavs or Goths. I'm sure if it was Illyrian, Thracian or greek it would be much higher among Albanians and Greeks, it's only high where Slavs and goths settled. this also doesn't explain the EV-13 and J2 in south slavs.

[Full_Frontal]

I'm talking about the spread of Northern R1 along the Steppes… that was long after Alexander, not before.

then why do we have r1a from andranovo in 2000 BC?

[Unome]

LOL.

Show me a map, study or something that proves the R1a in indians and Iranians comes from Europeans?

besides, someones Y-DNA ain't neccessarily got anything to do with what they look like.
Just look at pictures of R1 people in the Middle East. You can see it on their faces:

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/sharkeatpeople/ei9nis_zps4a7ba462.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-75154-p-2.html

[Scholarios]

Just look at pictures of R1 people in the Middle East. You can see it on their faces:

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/sharkeatpeople/ei9nis_zps4a7ba462.jpg




http://www.theapricity.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-75154-p-2.html



Here are some more R1a punjabis (30% of Punjab is R1a)

http://www.punjabonline.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/punjabis00.jpg

[Shqipez]

I'm talking about the spread of Northern R1 along the Steppes… that was long after Alexander, not before.

Well, from what I understood was that you said: Alexanders army, which consisted of Illyrians, Thracians and Greeks somehow majorly spread R1a across India and Iran, but what about North-Africa? does it exist there? So Illyrians, Thracians and ancient greeks were all r1a carriers? this would be much higher in Balkans, especially in NON-SLAVIC people. it's mostly asscociated with slavic people or slavic settlements.

If r1a in India and Iran came from Balkaners and from there those people immigrated back to Europe, specifically the steppes, I'm sure we would still be able to see and match the R1a Y-DNA haplogroups of Indians and iranians with balkaners and Slavs generally? and see which is older, which came from where etc? I'm sure the R1a in Indians and Iranians would be the same as the one in balkaners and/or newer?

[Shqipez]

so what if its less in albania.... they are not illyrians they are slav or greek

Slav or greeks but don't speak a greek or slavic language? So far the most supported theories are Ilyrian or thracian or a blend of those two. But south-slavs who speak slavic are somehow Illyrians? :lol: Most of the shit you say has already been disproven. still sticking to your old conspiracies, I see. :D South slavs are illyrians, but Albanians are not illyrians, they are south slav, who acording to you happen to be Illyrians :rotfl: but their language came from mars :D man you people are fucking retarded.

I'm telling you if it was Illyrian or ancient greek it would be higher among non-slavs. which it isn't, except for greek macedonia where Sclavenis settled

[Unome]

Well, from what I understood was that you said: Alexanders army, which consisted of Illyrians, Thracians and Greeks somehow majorly spread R1a across India and Iran, but what about North-Africa? does it exist there? So Illyrians, Thracians and ancient greeks were all r1a carriers? this would be much higher in Balkans, especially in NON-SLAVIC people. it's mostly asscociated with slavic people or slavic settlements.

If r1a in India and Iran came from Balkaners and from there those people immigrated back to Europe, specifically the steppes, I'm sure we would still be able to see and match the R1a Y-DNA haplogroups of Indians and iranians with balkaners and Slavs generally? and see which is older, which came from where etc? I'm sure the R1a in Indians and Iranians would be the same as the one in balkaners and/or newer?
Alexander's army had many Y-dna subclades in them, not just one.

The point is about which of those subclades populated which areas, and which areas today reflect their spread over 2000 years ago…




________________

Here are some more R1a punjabis (30% of Punjab is R1a)
Now go ahead and explain the common origin (if those photos are indeed actual r1a carriers).

[Highlands]

Slav or greeks but don't speak a greek or slavic language? So far the most supported theories are Ilyrian or thracian or a blend of those two. But south-slavs who speak slavic are somehow Illyrians? :lol: Most of the shit you say has already been disproven. still sticking to your old conspiracies, I see. :D South slavs are illyrians, but Albanians are not illyrians, they are either south slav or greek :rotfl:

I'm telling you if it was Illyrian or ancient greek it would be higher among non-slavs. which it isn't, except for greek macedonia where Sclavenis settled

I2 and R1a are present everywhere in Greece not just Macedonia.:http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin

[Shqipez]

whatever you say .. :) does not change facts that I2 is illyria and serbians are illyria and the only native people in balkan.. albania = greeks and greeks is a mystery...

Illyrians, thracians and greeks were in many aspects close people, especially in mythology and culture, customes, and they came in contact and many tribes were a mix of these people. and then came celts afterwards too.

For example Epirus was a contact zone of Illyrians and Greeks... regions around ancient-macedonia and Dardania was a contact zone of Thracians, illyrians and Greeks... They intermarried eachother and even went to war when they became enemies.. Bardylis the Illyrian king conquered ancient-Macedonia for example. and under Alexanders army, Illyrians, thracians and Greeks were gathered together into one army...

So these people were close, culturally and genetically, which can be seen in many Albanians and Greeks today.

last time I checked macedonia was in greece. the region of FYROm was actually part of a region called ''dardania'', my opinion is that the Albanians living in FYROm are more indigenous than the Slavic ones.

[OnceLord]

Here are some more R1a punjabis (30% of Punjab is R1a)

http://www.punjabonline.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/punjabis00.jpg

Its a lot more than that apparently, referring to my old school lurker memory its at least 50%..

Indians and Pakilandi posters seem to use that as some kind of 'anthro crutch' to assert their standing in the anthro world ('look at us, we are Aryan non Veddoids really!!11', LoL)

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Here are some more R1a punjabis (30% of Punjab is R1a)

http://www.punjabonline.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/punjabis00.jpg

You seriously suggest r1a people are originally brown? Your swarthicentrism is truly boundless.

Anyway dna of macedonia is wiped out without a trace even back in roman times. So even if your idiocy about slavies is true, this has no bearing for the past. Macedonia was not settled from athenian dorks, who themselves were the darkies of greece and the least respected and accomplished. Just like society today, their betters like spartans simply got outbred by everyone else and dogpiled over thousands of years by jealous brown people.

[Shqipez]

I2 and R1a are present everywhere in Greece not just Macedonia.:http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin

My point is that R1a in greek macedonia came with the Sclavenis... R1a and I2a in greece is mostly from proto-slavic and other slavic settlements.


ancient greek was very racist against other

they call them barbarian, never mix with others, greeks only mixed with greek

History says something different.

So Albanians are greeks but greeks did not mix with non-greeks?

But somehow albanians are greeks but do not speak greek :D

You people make so much sense :rotfl:

[Shqipez]

Alexander's army had many Y-dna subclades in them, not just one.

The point is about which of those subclades populated which areas, and which areas today reflect their spread over 2000 years ago…




________________

Now go ahead and explain the common origin (if those photos are indeed actual r1a carriers).


Yes, and it can be easily proven if R1a in Indians and Iranians has come from Alexanders army. R1a in slavs came from Indians and Iranians. the r1a in india and iranians is much older than the one in europe...



so what if you do not speak greek people lose language all time..... accept this.. even spain not speak iberian...

And where did Albanian language come from? Every language has an origin. the origin of the Albanian language is not 'recent' even if it was only attested in 14th century or whatever. if it was recent it would be related to it's neighbors languages because it must of developed from one of those yet it's classified within it's own branch in the indo-european language family. and most agree it's from Illyrian/Thracian.

[Skjaldemjøden]

Maybe if they ran a DNA test on his father's remains we would have an answer. No other argument really holds any water.

[Shqipez]

you are from epirus.. you migrate to serbia land (illyria, dardenian) and asimilate theyre language.

Serbs and Croats got their names from Iranian tribes, Serbi and Herevati... they were Iranian tribes. they lived around Caucasus/Steppes/Ukraine and asimilated Slavs and Goths... they became slavicized in language. from there they migrated to the balkans.

When did this Epirus thing happen? Yeah they asimilate their language. but they (South-slav ''illyrians'') did not hold their language, they speak slavic but they are Illyrians/Thracians :D But we are not, but we take their language, WE ARE MIGHTY SHEEPTARS :D


I already knew R1a and I2a exists throughout greece, but some of it's highest concentration is in greek macedonia. but even there E is the highest found. the rest of greece is also dominated by E, J2 and R1b.....

I2a exists very high in North Slavs too.... it's highest peak is around Ukraine area. but somehow you're telling me only R1a was brought down by slavic settlements? described as mass settlements... they brought majorly i2a and r1a together,,, as already explained... some r1a came from proto-slavs and some i2a came also from goths before that.

[DarknessInside]

Alexander was the one who first spread R1 genes into Persia/Iran and India…

Duh, c'mon, you guys should know this by now.

Typical Eurocentrist/Nordicist nonsense... R1a is an Indo-Iranian (Aryan) marker before arrival of your R1a-Alexander. Also it exists in Central Asian population (both Iranic and Turkic). According to your R1a-Alexander theory, Kyrgyz, Tajiks, Pashtuns, and etc. must be direct children of Alexander... LOL... And your R1a-Alexander created R1a Scythian, Indic, Iranic, and Turkic population? LOL...

Did your Alexander owned a Time-Machine? Traveled to Persia, India and Central Asia, Created R1a-tribes and after thousands years invaded?! LOL...

Guys, you created a fictional version of Alexander. His not your typical European hero (Nordic Super Man). He loved and admired Cyrus the Great. His main goal was to create a Hellenistic-Achaemenid (Greco-Persian) empire. To fuse two civilizations.

Sorry... He was not a NORDIC WHITE SUPERMAN.... He was an ancient Greek/Macedonian who wanted to create a powerful empire. Typical ancient conqueror. Just like Cyrus and Darius.

[TheoTheGreat]

Here are some more R1a punjabis (30% of Punjab is R1a)

http://www.punjabonline.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/punjabis00.jpg

Here is an african with the R1b haplogroup:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=57354&d=1430738236

[Scholarios]

moron making joke.. stay on topic.

The point is that matching phenotype to ydnb is pure subhuman behavior. Those punjabis have a 30% chance to be R1a. Are they related to Alexander the Great. Please trogdolyte, get real.

[Scholarios]

You seriously suggest r1a people are originally brown? Your swarthicentrism is truly boundless.

Anyway dna of macedonia is wiped out without a trace even back in roman times. So even if your idiocy about slavies is true, this has no bearing for the past. Macedonia was not settled from athenian dorks, who themselves were the darkies of greece and the least respected and accomplished. Just like society today, their betters like spartans simply got outbred by everyone else and dogpiled over thousands of years by jealous brown people.

Jesus you are dense dude. My point is showing some R1a blue eyed Pashtun has no bearing whatsoever on the topic. Every blue eyed R1a I can find 10,000 Indian swarthy brahmin so please stop the subhumanism McGenetics. and McHistory tm

[Shqipez]

why you have same dna as albanian when ure both migrants... hm..

Slavs settled in the balkans, in two migrations, proto-slavs and then later on another mass settlements. They left their language, today they all speak slavic, so of course they also left GENETICS, which can only be R1a and I2a and which only fits with that and the settlements.

Bulgaria ydna haplogorups:

i2a: 20%

r1a: 17%

EV-13: 23.5%

r1b: 11%

j2: 11%


It's very well historically recorded SLAVS settled, some argue the 2nd immigration was of dlavs by the same names as of today of the Balkans such as the Serbs, Bulgars and Croats.. they brought with them a lot of i2a and r1a, some of it was already there from sclavenis and goths too.

only i2a and r1a can be attributed to slavic settlements, what else can?

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

you can see the same in other south slavs.... how did E, J2 and r1b come to exist in these people?

most south slavs plot on the slavic side.

I2a is associated with Slavic speaking people, it's high in slavic countries together with r1a... Take a look at Belarus for example 17% I2a... in Ukraine/Moldova area it's at its highest peak.

[Scholarios]

bad argumenting scholarois.. do not mix indian in this argument...

Alexander's dna spread to India was brought up by others. edit i was being a meanie


Anyways, thread has been slain.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/R-M458_frequency_distribution.PNG

[Thunder_shock]

Probably a e1b1b1 kneegrow

[Scholarios]

So 11 pages of arguring and no one has been able to establish why they chose R1a other than the rhetorical equivalent of "flip a coin".

We need Hellenas' input....

[Shqipez]

i do not know what you are my man..... i think your people is some modern greek, maybe epirus people who migrate to modern albanian... you maybe have italian blood too..

We are Illyrians and Thracians, it's that simple. We are indigenous people who have survived Romanization and Slavicization. We kept our language and culture, which has been proposed as a thraco-illyrian mix.

Most South-Slavs are slavs. Bosnians = Slavs. Croats = Slavs. Serbs = Slavs ... they have some mixes with vlachs and ingienous people, yes... but most of them are Slavs.

EV-13 in Bosniaks = 10%

in Croats = 10%

in Serbs = 18 %

they also have traces of j2 and r1b...

They are more US, than we are them... the highest haplogroups i2a and r1a is all associated with slavs or goths and even Sarmatians/Scythians. I2a is high in NORTH Slavic countries... not just south slavs, and so is R1a. i2a peaks in Ukraine/Moldova area. ans is high in belarussians and can also be found in decent amounts in Poland area.

[Highlands]

Ancient Balkanites weren't swarthy but Europid in phenotype.

[Shqipez]

Probably a e1b1b1 kneegrow

With that logic R1a is Indian and R1b is Cameroon :D

[Ukgjin]

Most likely E1b1b which belonged to neolithic farmers or J2, I exclude the opportunity of I2a1 hence I think Dacians and Thracians and perhaps some Illyrian northern clans shared this and there is still an open debate over it's belongings to Slavs or Southern Europeans as after all it has a considerable concentration in Sardinia and Southern Italy predating the medieval Albanian settlements, I would exclude R1b hence it may have arrived to the area with the arrival of Celts in the modern day Austrian border.

Also, the slavic group is not a proper racial group hence it's more of a cultural and linguistic affinity, plus modern slavic groups are quite mixed nowadays if compared to the proto ancient slavs, as different groups mixed with Germanics, Bulgars, Vlachs, Illyrians, Mongols, Vikings, Celts and so on, also the founding father of Russia was the Viking Rus, and later they suffered the Mongol invasion in large extracts of their country which left a sort of genetic impact on them.

Modern FYROMians have no connection to Alexander genetically hence they are the product of the bi-ethnic Bulgaro-Slavic group that once settled here mixed in a larger extent with Vlachs, Thracians, Byzantine Greekophones etc..

I wish people in the area could stop lliving in the past and leave deceased figures to their rest whilst focusing on their economies, services to citizens, coming up with better infrastructures and raising salaries..you gotta go with the flow, just like Croatians did, forget the past and focus on the present and future.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Jesus you are dense dude. My point is showing some R1a blue eyed Pashtun has no bearing whatsoever on the topic. Every blue eyed R1a I can find 10,000 Indian swarthy brahmin so please stop the subhumanism


Don't try to deflect faggot. If you can find a million brown ones so what? The origin is still like the guy posted, there's no doubt of that. We also have ancient dna going back 5k years or more.

We KNOW they were like modern europeans, it's just a fact. You are trying to bullshit and say that's not the case. That makes you a fucking liar because you know it's false.



McGenetics. and McHistory tm

Please, besides Svipdag who here knows half as much history as I do? No one is even halfway there, most of you are college age and get your 'history' from fucking internet forums.

As for genetics, I know more than anyone here. Which doesn't say much. I'm the only one here who even knows what a PCA really is and what it means. lollers.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

xD
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?42706-Members-Pictures-Thread-II&p=3513916&viewfull=1#post3513916

ancient macedдonian :)

It's funny to me that there is this on and on thing where they are ANCIENT TRUE GREEKS 4EVAR WITH NO TURKISH ADMIXTURE. Then you see a picture and you're like. Well. Hey. Isn't that guy Turkish? NO NO NO TRUE ANCIENT GREEKZ FOREVER, WHITES IN GREECE ARE ONLY SLAV MIGRANTS. WHAT THE WHITER ONES ALL LIVE IN THE COUNTRY WHERE THIS MAKES NO SENSE? JUST SHUT UP SHUT UP WE AR ANCIENT TRU GREEKZ FOREVER.

[Scholarios]

Don't try to deflect faggot. If you can find a million brown ones so what? The origin is still like the guy posted, there's no doubt of that. We also have ancient dna going back 5k years or more.

We KNOW they were like modern europeans, it's just a fact. You are trying to bullshit and say that's not the case. That makes you a fucking liar because you know it's false.

Listen Cocksucker. You are probably the dumbest here and the poster whose ignorance is matched only by his arrogance. You have so far not come up with a single fact or piece of data to support your colvoluted fucking fantasies. You have Greek R1a going back 5000 years? Stay with the topic then and stop changing it when you start to get buried! Fuck phenotype circumstances. It's got no bearing on the issue at hand... what ydna was present in Macedonia 2500 years ago.
Underhill agrees (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html) with me. Nordvedt agrees (http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/The%20Story%20of%20Y-DNA%20Haplogroup%20I.pdf) with me. Your virtual peanut gallery agrees with you. And that's the sad truth.



Please, besides Svipdag who here knows half as much history as I do?

You don't know a hole in the ground from your asshole. What history do you know? Oh, right... Linear B hasn't been deciphered yet. :picard1:



No one is even halfway there, most of you are college age and get your 'history' from fucking internet forums.

Long finished with uni. Got my MA too. Employed full time. Not as old as you though...


As for genetics, I know more than anyone here.


I wouldn't doubt you, except you clearly don't know a thing about R1a . It actually almost seems like you are making it up as you go.

[Pausanias]

Listen Cocksucker. You are probably the dumbest here and the poster whose ignorance is matched only by his arrogance. You have so far not come up with a single fact or piece of data to support your colvoluted fucking fantasies. You have Greek R1a going back 5000 years? Stay with the topic then and stop changing it when you start to get buried! Fuck phenotype circumstances. It's got no bearing on the issue at hand... what ydna was present in Macedonia 2500 years ago.





You don't know a hole in the ground from your asshole. What history do you know? Oh, right... Linear B hasn't been deciphered yet. :picard1:




Long finished with uni. Got my MA too. Employed full time. Not as old as you though...




I wouldn't doubt you, except you clearly don't know a thing about R1a . It actually almost seems like you are making it up as you go.


Αυτός ο τύπος είναι ή κομπλεξικός ή καθυστερημένος ή αποτυχημενος τρολ. Μάλλον τα 3 μαζί.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Listen Cocksucker. You are probably the dumbest here and the poster whose ignorance is matched only by his arrogance.


Nope, you're just the most dishonest and delusional.



You have so far not come up with a single fact or piece of data to support your colvoluted fucking fantasies. You have Greek R1a going back 5000 years?


For india, dumbfuck.



Stay with the topic then and stop changing it when you start to get buried!

:lol:

You brought up India fuckface, not me. I just pointed out the lie. Then YOU tried to backpedal and distract. What a lying cocksucking queerman you are.




Fuck phenotype circumstances.

:lol:

OK. Right. Race is a social contruct WAAA WAAA WAAA no such thing as whites, except when I get my welfare check they owe me reparations. Well, even if you believe that bullshit, it is one of the few ways we can establish identity. You know, like alexander having blond hair, but ANCIENT TRU GREEKZ claim he had some y-dna strongly associated with dark hair.

I like how you came up with the idea mtdna doesn;t matter, too. Ok. So y-dna just flys off on its own? I know brown people LOVE rape but that level of rape would just be incredible.




It's got no bearing on the issue at hand... what ydna was present in Macedonia 2500 years ago.


Of course it is dickhead. The question is how all that r1a got here. Then you questioned whether it's even the case that r1a was anything to do with europeanlike people. Then you throw a hissy fit when I point out how retarded you are, and that we have ancient DNA to show it IS.

So yes it all matters. It shows you are completely full of fucking shit, and that r1a has been all through that area for thousands of years extending from poland all the way to fucking India. It's been there all this time. It's also clinal. Proving conclusively your slavic origin of r1a bullshit is a made up fantasy to explain away your race mixing/rape of recent times.




You don't know a hole in the ground from your asshole. What history do you know?


More than anyone in this thread anyway.



Oh, right... Linear B hasn't been deciphered yet. :picard1:


I mistyped once out of 50k pages of arguing with greek retards. Whoops, now I will hear it for all eternity. I also misremembered about crete in this thread. At any rate I am sure mycenaeans were r1b. I must have misremembered what island mycenaens settled on but later greeks did not. There is also a group of greek refugees that were settled to tyorolia, who came when the ottomans conquered. They notonly had r1b y-dna their plot location was a dead on match for some other group that was though to be a standin for ancient greeks.

I get tired of same shit over and over again so I won't bother to drudge it up again. Every time you guys just try to ignore it, then come back again strong a few weeks later with the same retarded shit.



I wouldn't doubt you, except you clearly don't know a thing about R1a . It actually almost seems like you are making it up as you go.

No, the people who say something like "this clade is 5k years old, which matches up right to bell beaker so it must originate in bell beaker" are the ones who don't know anything about genetics. People who make these studies don't really even know that much. They turn on a machine and they get the results they want. From there it's up to them to make a conclusion. The conclusions are almost always nothing to do with the data they gather. Having the data fail to falsify your hypothesis doesn't make it true. But these conclusions are getting falsified in time by later studies because they are doing bad science.

[Shqipez]

...

Alexander blond hair? Why do greeks and Albanians mostly have ancient balkanic culture and less other south slavs?

Ancient greeks and Illyrians carried Pilos hat/PLIS hat. Where do you see Slavs carry these?

Alexanders mother was an Epirotan, she was from EPIRUS, Alexanders cousin Was Pyrrhus of Epirus. Do you know who this guy was? .. historically this region was north greece and south-albania, sometimes historically it stretched even more north, for example under Roman empire, it all depends... so his genes weren't all ancient-macedonian, little boy. Ancient-Macedonians weren't slavs or had anything to do with slavs. The R1a in the balkans is from slavic settlements, people have already posted enough proof to you but all you do is ignore it. but with that being said; Ancient-Macedonians carried the same genes and looked the same as Ancient greeks, Thracians, Illyrians.... Thracians for example were a big source in Alexanders army.

Why is everything in Thracian and Illyrian mostly associated with greek mythology? if you read about them it's always ''in greek mythology...''

lets say hypothetically, what makes you think he was r1a? Because you think he had blond hair? LOL. and that he couldn't be EV-13 or J2 because it's ancestor exists in middle east and africa, well, here is some newsflash for you little boy: R1a and R1b in Europe originated outside, and came also outside of Europe, R1a specifically probably came from India.

What we are trying to tell you herel ittle boy is that haplogroup Y-DNA has nothing to do with looks, and I have seen ancient sculptures and pics of Achilles, Bardylis, Alexander, Pyrrhus and other ancient balkan people and none look slavic, they look like Greeks or Albanians.

[Governor]

E1b1b

[Scholarios]

Actually, I'm just average intelligence. But damned if this kind of thread doesn't make me feel like a genius.

End water fluoridation in usa now....

[Shqipez]

Even coins from Illyrians has been found and guess what; it was the image of Greek god Hercules.

[Pausanias]

It's funny to me that there is this on and on thing where they are ANCIENT TRUE GREEKS 4EVAR WITH NO TURKISH ADMIXTURE. Then you see a picture and you're like. Well. Hey. Isn't that guy Turkish? NO NO NO TRUE ANCIENT GREEKZ FOREVER, WHITES IN GREECE ARE ONLY SLAV MIGRANTS. WHAT THE WHITER ONES ALL LIVE IN THE COUNTRY WHERE THIS MAKES NO SENSE? JUST SHUT UP SHUT UP WE AR ANCIENT TRU GREEKZ FOREVER.

I can not help but laugh every time I read one of your posts. Dunno if you're a troll, or mentally retarded, but thanks for make me laugh xD

The only true descendants of Alexander and the ancient macedonians, are the modern Greek macedonians. It's what historians and anthropologists say. Deal with it man.

Only the complexed and frustrated anti-Hellenic deny it.

[Pausanias]

xD
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?42706-Members-Pictures-Thread-II&p=3513916&viewfull=1#post3513916

ancient macedдonian :)

Some admin removed my pic without asking me. Thank you albani4n...

[Journeyman26]

I can not help but laugh every time I read one of your posts.

Yeah I know right? He is a clown.

[Pausanias]

i do not think greek has turkishs blood, i actually think oposite

but why this man say he is macedonian and look like arab, like a chechen in russia lands.. i do not know where he got these arabian look from

are there many pakistanians where he lives maybe... :confused:

First of all I don't look arab at all, and second any southern european can look arab if tan enough and their nose pointy enough, thats doesn't mean that he is arab.
According to you, half Italy look arabic then.

[Geni]

R1b Z 105+,:laugh:

[Scholarios]

I can not help but laugh every time I read one of your posts. Dunno if you're a troll, or mentally retarded, but thanks for make me laugh xD

He's a Combo of type A personality with IQ just high enough to keep him out of " special courses" in school, no doubt. Either that or a decent troll.


Funny point is, if we were trying to establish continuity in Greece, we wouldn't be arguing to include more than 25% of haplogroups as foreign input. ( R1a and I).

[Pausanias]

Yeah I know right? He is a clown.

He is just a frustated troll trying to offend Greeks. Poor guy..

[Pausanias]

He's a Combo of type A personality with IQ just high enough to keep him out of " special courses" in school, no doubt. Either that or a decent troll.


Funny point is, if we were trying to establish continuity in Greece, we wouldn't be arguing to include more than 25% of haplogroups as foreign input. ( R1a and I).

Agree.

[Hevo]

Only one way to find out.;)

[Queen B]

Αυτός ο τύπος είναι ή κομπλεξικός ή καθυστερημένος ή αποτυχημενος τρολ. Μάλλον τα 3 μαζί.
Ο τύπος είναι ΒΟΔΙ απο τα λίγα.
Λέει για το Αι-κιού του, και δεν το έχει αποδείξει ποτέ. Λέει για το πόσο μορφωμένος είναι, ενώ χιλιάδες δολλάρια (για τέτοια ιδιοφυία, μια δουλειά δεν βλέπω να έχει), έχει ''Λέει'' τρία παιδιά και δεν του μιλάει κανένα, ούτε και ο πατέρας του. Ο τύπος ή είναι φαντασιόπληκτος, ή τελείως μαλάκας, ή και τα δύο.

I can not help but laugh every time I read one of your posts. Dunno if you're a troll, or mentally retarded, but thanks for make me laugh xD

The only true descendants of Alexander and the ancient macedonians, are the modern Greek macedonians. It's what historians and anthropologists say. Deal with it man.

Only the complexed and frustrated anti-Hellenic deny it.

Nah, historians and anthropologist know shit. We have prisoner of ice, he is the source of knowledge :lol:

[Highlands]

First of all I don't look arab at all, and second any southern european can look arab if tan enough and their nose pointy enough, thats doesn't mean that he is arab.
According to you, half Italy look arabic then.

Ignore him :) you look southern euro.

[Pausanias]

Ο τύπος είναι ΒΟΔΙ απο τα λίγα.
Λέει για το Αι-κιού του, και δεν το έχει αποδείξει ποτέ. Λέει για το πόσο μορφωμένος είναι, ενώ χιλιάδες δολλάρια (για τέτοια ιδιοφυία, μια δουλειά δεν βλέπω να έχει), έχει ''Λέει'' τρία παιδιά και δεν του μιλάει κανένα, ούτε και ο πατέρας του. Ο τύπος ή είναι φαντασιόπληκτος, ή τελείως μαλάκας, ή και τα δύο.


Είμαι σίγουρος οτι η γυναικα του τον χωρισε και έφυγε με Έλληνα, γι' αυτό και μας μισεί τοσο πολύ χαχαχαχα

[Queen B]

Είμαι σίγουρος οτι η γυναικα του τον χωρισε και έφυγε με Έλληνα, γι' αυτό και μας μισεί τοσο πολύ χαχαχαχα
Οχι, δεν είναι παντρεμένος, έτσι είπε. Θα γκάστρωσε κατα λάθος άσχετες, που και αυτές θα κατάλαβαν τι τύπος είναι, για αυτό δεν τον αφήνουν να δει τα παιδιά του - αν έχει, γιατί πολύ πιθανό να είναι και αυτά φανταστικά , όπως και η νοημοσύνη του :lol:

[Pausanias]

Οχι, δεν είναι παντρεμένος, έτσι είπε. Θα γκάστρωσε κατα λάθος άσχετες, που και αυτές θα κατάλαβαν τι τύπος είναι, για αυτό δεν τον αφήνουν να δει τα παιδιά του - αν έχει, γιατί πολύ πιθανό να είναι και αυτά φανταστικά , όπως και η νοημοσύνη του :lol:

Ειλικρινά είναι κρίμα ο τύπος. Είναι ή δεν είναι αληθεια αυτά που λεει, σίγουρα να είναι πολύ δυστυχής ανθρωπος. :icon_neutral:

[Unome]

R1AlexandR1a would look upon this thread today and be proud that his Middle Eastern campaign of butthurt continue 2000 years later, as the descendants of his armies still mock the descendants of the conquered.

[Unome]

You seriously suggest r1a people are originally brown? Your swarthicentrism is truly boundless.

Anyway dna of macedonia is wiped out without a trace even back in roman times. So even if your idiocy about slavies is true, this has no bearing for the past. Macedonia was not settled from athenian dorks, who themselves were the darkies of greece and the least respected and accomplished. Just like society today, their betters like spartans simply got outbred by everyone else and dogpiled over thousands of years by jealous brown people.
Yet isn't it ironic how they can't explain how R1 spread so far and through such various amounts of terrain? It must have been some swarthy or Afrikan man who did all the spreading of ancient R1 y-DNA… :icon_rolleyes:

[Gaston]

R1AlexandR1a would look upon this thread today and be proud that his Middle Eastern campaign of butthurt continue 2000 years later, as the descendants of his armies still mock the descendants of the conquered.

Well, if he was alive, he wouldn't waste his time on the effeminate internet at home but he would be outside, in the military and on the field. Maybe as a Greek American (or Macedonian-American?) in the US army, stationed in the Middle East he already knows well.

[Unome]

Well, if he was alive, he wouldn't waste his time on the effeminate internet at home but he would be outside, in the military and on the field. Maybe as a Greek American (or Macedonian-American?) in the US army, stationed in the Middle East he already knows well.
He dreamed to conquer, and explore the world.

But today the world is already conquered and explored; he probably would be looking toward new horizons yes?

[Gaston]

He dreamed to conquer, and explore the world.

But today the world is already conquered and explored; he probably would be looking toward new horizons yes?

I guess so. I wonder what new horizons are available for military men nowadays.

[Scholarios]

Yet isn't it ironic how they can't explain how R1 spread so far and through such various amounts of terrain? It must have been some swarthy or Afrikan man who did all the spreading of ancient R1 y-DNA… :icon_rolleyes:

Yes, because R1 DNA began from Greek Macedonia and spread to Central Africa by the armies of Alexander.

Geezus. It must be a great drug to know nothing but have it all figured out.

[Unome]

Yes, because R1 DNA began from Greek Macedonia and spread to Central Africa by the armies of Alexander.

Geezus. It must be a great drug to know nothing but have it all figured out.
Yet you still have no alternative theory nor idea… isn't it so interesting how you explain nothing?

You probably believe that Y-dna magically jumps from one country to the next, as-if males of one group have no problem with an invading army of foreign men??? Explain it!

[lwt_]

"Bird (2007) attributes the overall presence of E-V13 in Great Britian, especially in areas of high frequency, to settlement during the 1st through 4th centuries CE by Roman soldiers from the Balkan peninsula."
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.pdf

"Both E-V13 and J-M12 have also been used in studies seeking to find evidence of a remaining Greek presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan, going back to the time of Alexander the Great."
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html

:coffee:

[Shqipez]

Alexander the Greats army has been associated with EV-13 and J2. I think there needs to be done more tests of populations claiming descendants from Alexanders army.

Roman soldiers, of different ethnic background such as Illyrians and Thracians, have also been associated with EV-13 and J2.

One could also add R1b to this as it also seems to go together with EV-12 and J2 in the balkans.


There is no R1a here or I2a, I'm sorry.


"Bird (2007) attributes the overall presence of E-V13 in Great Britian, especially in areas of high frequency, to settlement during the 1st through 4th centuries CE by Roman soldiers from the Balkan peninsula."
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.pdf

"Both E-V13 and J-M12 have also been used in studies seeking to find evidence of a remaining Greek presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan, going back to the time of Alexander the Great."
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html

:coffee:

Exactly this. There needs to be more tests done... Alexanders army was of Illyrians, thracians and greek soldiers.

Steve bird meant that E in britain was replaced by ango-saxon populations.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Alexander blond hair? Why do greeks and Albanians mostly have ancient balkanic culture and less other south slavs?

Ancient greeks and Illyrians carried Pilos hat/PLIS hat. Where do you see Slavs carry these?

Alexanders mother was an Epirotan, she was from EPIRUS, Alexanders cousin Was Pyrrhus of Epirus. Do you know who this guy was? .. historically this region was north greece and south-albania, sometimes historically it stretched even more north, for example under Roman empire, it all depends... so his genes weren't all ancient-macedonian, little boy. Ancient-Macedonians weren't slavs or had anything to do with slavs. The R1a in the balkans is from slavic settlements, people have already posted enough proof to you but all you do is ignore it. but with that being said; Ancient-Macedonians carried the same genes and looked the same as Ancient greeks, Thracians, Illyrians.... Thracians for example were a big source in Alexanders army.

Why is everything in Thracian and Illyrian mostly associated with greek mythology? if you read about them it's always ''in greek mythology...''

lets say hypothetically, what makes you think he was r1a? Because you think he had blond hair? LOL.


Blah blah what's your fucking point, you really have a disorganized mind and don't know anything about anything. As for blond hair, he did have it, he's refered to as having it many times.



and that he couldn't be EV-13 or J2 because it's ancestor exists in middle east and africa, well, here is some newsflash for you little boy: R1a and R1b in Europe originated outside,


Give me a fucking break. Nope, they don't come from africa or middle east.



and came also outside of Europe, R1a specifically probably came from India.


r1a has been right where it is so long it doesn't really matter where it came from.




What we are trying to tell you herel ittle boy is that haplogroup Y-DNA has nothing to do with looks,


Yeah, there's no such thing as race either.



and I have seen ancient sculptures and pics of Achilles, Bardylis, Alexander, Pyrrhus and other ancient balkan people and none look slavic, they look like Greeks or Albanians.


Who said alexander is slavic? What on earth made you this stupid?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Actually, I'm just average intelligence. But damned if this kind of thread doesn't make me feel like a genius.

End water fluoridation in usa now....

I guess average intelligence is not smart enough to conceive of the idea something you don't like or don't understand is true. Yes it's the guy with skull bigger around than a bowling ball who has degrees in math and computer science and huge IQ is dumb, not the brown hominid who looks like a reject from The Dark Crystal.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I can not help but laugh every time I read one of your posts. Dunno if you're a troll, or mentally retarded, but thanks for make me laugh xD

The only true descendants of Alexander and the ancient macedonians, are the modern Greek macedonians. It's what historians and anthropologists say. Deal with it man.

Only the complexed and frustrated anti-Hellenic deny it.


No they don't, turkolevant man.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

He's a Combo of type A personality with IQ just high enough to keep him out of " special courses" in school, no doubt. Either that or a decent troll.
Funny point is, if we were trying to establish continuity in Greece, we wouldn't be arguing to include more than 25% of haplogroups as foreign input. ( R1a and I).


Nope, you guys justhave brown borreby delusions and ravings brought un by massive inferiority complex and buying into your own propaganda. When someone points out the ludrcrousness of it all you snap and have an ego meltdown.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

He dreamed to conquer, and explore the world.

But today the world is already conquered and explored; he probably would be looking toward new horizons yes?

That alone proves he's not some brown mama's boy of south europe.If the rest of the workd but greece disappeared today it would be like one in a million people who had any desire to explore anything.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

"Bird (2007) attributes the overall presence of E-V13 in Great Britian, especially in areas of high frequency, to settlement during the 1st through 4th centuries CE by Roman soldiers from the Balkan peninsula."
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.pdf

"Both E-V13 and J-M12 have also been used in studies seeking to find evidence of a remaining Greek presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan, going back to the time of Alexander the Great."
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html

:coffee:

Probably comes from illyrians not greeks. Alexander's armies were mostly NOT greek but anatolian and illyrian etc.

[Shqipez]

Blah blah what's your fucking point, you really have a disorganized mind and don't know anything about anything. As for blond hair, he did have it, he's refered to as having it many times.



Give me a fucking break. Nope, they don't come from africa or middle east.



r1a has been right where it is so long it doesn't really matter where it came from.



Yeah, there's no such thing as race either.




Who said alexander is slavic? What on earth made you this stupid?



it doesn't also matter where Haplogroup E, r1b or J2 came from, it's been around long enough in Europe.

Instead of calling me stupid little boy you should attribute that word to yourself, maybe write it on your forehead. you should maybe study some history, the whole arguement of ancient macedonians being r1a is that their elite were some ancient proto slavs who settled in macedonia and created an own identity from the greek one, which of course is bullshit since they identified as greeks and not vice versa, if ancient-Macedonians ever had another identity than Greek it would of Been Phyrgians, Illyrians or Thracians and a gradual process of hellenization must of happened and not de-hellinization. some linguistics put the language mixed with Illyrian, thracian and greek. But most agree it was Greek... There is no R1a here or ancient-proto Slavs little boy.. the R1a in Balkans is from Slavic settlements way after this time,
backed up by historical records of migrations.

As for the arguement of R1a across india and iran being spread by Alexander, half of his army were thracians and Illyrians and not just greeks... so somehow they only spread R1a? all carried by Illyrians, thracians and Greeks? :picard1: R1a in India and Iran has no relation to the one in Europe except for the fact that it is older and is the ancestor of the ones in Europe.

There is more serious relation to EV-13, j2 and r1b and Alexanders army. Just like there is relation to Roman empire and its soldiers of balkanic origin (Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians), which all EV-13 and J2 have been attributed to.

You're just a jealous prick.

As I have also explained his mother was Epirotan. And some argue his father was not Philip.. Macedonia was not that sucessful before Alexanders time... He probably got his military brain from his Epirotan side, considering Pyrrhus of Epirus was his cousin.

I highly doubt he was blond haired, but with that in mind, plenty of blond haired non-slavic balkaners that I have seen. So what the fuck is your point? ''OH HE WAS BLOND HE MUS OF BEEN R1a BECAUSE EV-13 and J2 is NIGGER HAPLOGROUP'' :picard1: As I explained again to your inbred mind, E and J2 in europe has been around a long time just like R1a and other haplogroups.

[Unome]

The linguistic/racial designation 'Slavic' did not exist before 1200AD.

So you should quit referring to r1a carriers before 1200AD as slavic.

It's a misnomer. You can't use just any name today to designate ancient people. Because names change, but bloodlines do not.

[Sockorer]

The ancient Greeks were all I2, R1a, and R1b East Nordics.

Their slaves were E, J, T, and G wogs.

Modern Greeks are the tragic racial intermixing of these elements.

[Unome]

Most self-proclaimed "Greek" people today are Turkish-admixed, and not reflective of Ancient Greeks. There are very few pure Greek bloodlines remaining linked to the ancients, in Greece. Most of the purebred Greeks relocated after the fall of Constantinople to the eastern barbarian hordes.

Constantinople is still occupied today and requires liberation.

[Sockorer]

Most self-proclaimed "Greek" people today are Turkish-admixed, and not reflective of Ancient Greeks. There are very few pure Greek bloodlines remaining linked to the ancients, in Greece. Most of the purebred Greeks relocated after the fall of Constantinople to the eastern barbarian hordes.

Constantinople is still occupied today and requires liberation.

Not just Constantinople and Turkey, all of Greece is occupied by Turko-Neolithic scum.

It is our duty as direct descendants of the ancients to return to Greece and cleanse it.

[Smeagol]

r1a

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Most self-proclaimed "Greek" people today are Turkish-admixed, and not reflective of Ancient Greeks. There are very few pure Greek bloodlines remaining linked to the ancients, in Greece. Most of the purebred Greeks relocated after the fall of Constantinople to the eastern barbarian hordes.

Constantinople is still occupied today and requires liberation.

I think it's funny that the 'slavic' macedonians also have a high e-v13. I2a is also higher than r1a. WHOOPS. Man it's like the language has nothing to do with the genetics, and it's like the I2a does not have anything to do with 'slavs'

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

IDK but Tsar Nicholas II had R1b

[Unome]

Lol, you have to educate them slowly, one point at a time, or they'll get confused and angry.

A lot of them have the odd notion that the language you speak = who you are genetically.

So barking like a dog, means they're a dog? Baby-steps…

[Highlands]

E, J, G wogs + Nordic U, H women

[Shqipez]

I think it's funny that the 'slavic' macedonians also have a high e-v13. I2a is also higher than r1a. WHOOPS. Man it's like the language has nothing to do with the genetics, and it's like the I2a does not have anything to do with 'slavs'

The slavic and Bulgarian Macedonians have high EV-13 from asimilated ancient balkanic people, such as the Thracians. DO you understand in your little brain that the second slavic settlements, after settling established empires and asimilated some indigenous people through for example orthodoxy religion. South slavs have EV-13 and J2 from Vlachs, romanized people of the Balkans and some Albanians.

if i2a and r1a doesn't have anything to do with Slavs but south slavs speak slavic then what haplogroups can Slavs that settled in the balkans be attributed to? I2a has already been proven to of been brought by Slavs to the balkans, it's ancestor has been found in Poland/Ukraine area. If R1a and I2a is not slavic then what? I think you're the fucking retard here who doesn't understand Slavs brought both R1a and I2a, since both is associated with Slavs and carried by slavs. doesn't matter if one is higher than the other, you dumb fuck, it's a coincidence :picard1: How can someone be so fucking stupid like you? For example the fact that I2a in Croatia and Bosnia is 60%-70% instead of R1a is just coincidence.

Also you think he was R1a because he must of been blond hair, well retard, Hair color and eye color have nothing to do with haplogroups... plenty of blond and blue eyed greeks and albos who are not r1a or i2a :picard1:

[Sockorer]

The slavic and Bulgarian Macedonians have high EV-13 from asimilated ancient balkanic people, such as the Thracians. DO you understand in your little brain that the second slavic settlements, after settling established empires and asimilated some indigenous people through for example orthodoxy religion. South slavs have EV-13 and J2 from Vlachs, romanized people of the Balkans and some Albanians.

if i2a and r1a doesn't have anything to do with Slavs but south slavs speak slavic then what haplogroups can Slavs that settled in the balkans be attributed to? I2a has already been proven to of been brought by Slavs to the balkans, it's ancestor has been found in Poland/Ukraine area. If R1a and I2a is not slavic then what? I think you're the fucking retard here who doesn't understand Slavs brought both R1a and I2a, since both is associated with Slavs and carried by slavs. doesn't matter if one is higher than the other, you dumb fuck, it's a coincidence :picard1: How can someone be so fucking stupid like you? For example the fact that I2a in Croatia and Bosnia is 60%-70% instead of R1a is just coincidence.

Also you think he was R1a because he must of been blond hair, well retard, Hair color and eye color have nothing to do with haplogroups... plenty of blond and blue eyed greeks and albos who are not r1a or i2a :picard1:

All R1A, R1B, and I2A are from the Ancient Greeks, not the Slavs, duh.

[Shqipez]

Lol, you have to educate them slowly, one point at a time, or they'll get confused and angry.

A lot of them have the odd notion that the language you speak = who you are genetically.

So barking like a dog, means they're a dog? Baby-steps…

i'M STILL waiting for you to prove to me the R1a in India and Iran is descendant of R1a in Europe.

No, Linguistically does not mean who you are genetically, it all depends of course... the Slavs in the Balkans did not settle with military expansion like the Roman empire, Slavs came to the balkans as tribes, they came in MASS settlements, we are talking about 100,000's of thousands.... they brought genetics, R1a and I2a, and language which south slavs speak today ... Romans in the balkans brought mostly language. BIG DIFFERENCE HERE. they might of left some genetic traces in latin speaking populations though. but latin speaking people such as vlachs and romanians started speaking latin through a long process of time. they were under roman occupation and latin was the main language for a long time.

So you're telling me the Slavs who settled in the balkans did not leave any genetic influence?


All R1A, R1B, and I2A are from the Ancient Greeks, not the Slavs, duh.

R1b is not slavic, it's ancient balkanic.

The rest, R1a and I2a are from slavs, duh. It's already been explained by Ken Nordtvedt. some of it's highest peaks is in East Europe.... I2a in Ukraine and Moldova for example, and r1a is typical among slavs... I2a is also high among slavs.

I2a or R1a doesn't have to be neccessarily slavic in origin, but it was carried by slavic speaking people.... R1a can be attributed to Scythians and Sarmatians too who lived around the steppes, and i2a can be attributed to goths too who lived around the steppes/east europe. and both of these came in contact with proto slavs and eachother.. and goths also settled in around croatia and could of brought some i2a there....

you have to understand there have been different wave of migrations that could of brought the same haplogroups.

[Sockorer]

R1b is not slavic, it's ancient balkanic.

The rest, R1a and I2a are from slavs, duh. It's already been explained by Ken Nordtvedt.

More claims without evidence, logic or facts.

So typical for a Balkaner.

R1a, I2a, and R1b have been in the Balkans since the Indo-Europeans, where they lorded over their brown Neolithic slaves.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The slavic and Bulgarian Macedonians have high EV-13 from asimilated ancient balkanic people

How dumb are you?

The point is, the language and DNA are not anything to do with each other. Since you are a giant idiot I will just put you on ignore.

[Dianatomia]

The slavic and Bulgarian Macedonians have high EV-13 from asimilated ancient balkanic people, such as the Thracians. DO you understand in your little brain that the second slavic settlements, after settling established empires and asimilated some indigenous people through for example orthodoxy religion. South slavs have EV-13 and J2 from Vlachs, romanized people of the Balkans and some Albanians.

if i2a and r1a doesn't have anything to do with Slavs but south slavs speak slavic then what haplogroups can Slavs that settled in the balkans be attributed to? I2a has already been proven to of been brought by Slavs to the balkans, it's ancestor has been found in Poland/Ukraine area. If R1a and I2a is not slavic then what? I think you're the fucking retard here who doesn't understand Slavs brought both R1a and I2a, since both is associated with Slavs and carried by slavs. doesn't matter if one is higher than the other, you dumb fuck, it's a coincidence :picard1: How can someone be so fucking stupid like you? For example the fact that I2a in Croatia and Bosnia is 60%-70% instead of R1a is just coincidence.

Also you think he was R1a because he must of been blond hair, well retard, Hair color and eye color have nothing to do with haplogroups... plenty of blond and blue eyed greeks and albos who are not r1a or i2a :picard1:

There are indications that some R1a is pre-slavic in the Southern Balkans. While the Slavs may have brought more. It's Eastern Europe. So waves of Slavic-like peoples may have made their way into the Balkans before antiquity. Just like in the Middle Ages.

As for Alexander. We can only suspect. One detail people seem to forget is that his family claimed descend from Argos (Peloponesse). At least that's what they claimed. So this makes I2a and R1a (Slavic or not Slavic) less likely. If one had to bet, it's probably one of E-V13, J2 or R1b.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

i'
R1b is not slavic, it's ancient balkanic.

The rest, R1a and I2a are from slavs, duh.

Yeah sure. OK.

[Shqipez]

More claims without evidence, logic or facts.

So typical for a Balkaner.

R1a, I2a, and R1b have been in the Balkans since the Indo-Europeans, where they lorded over their brown Neolithic slaves.

Talks about claim with no evidence but where is your evidence? Your agenda is clear here... ''brown'' you think because E and J2 is also outside europe they must be brown :picard1: It's this retardness i'm talking about, with that logic r1b is cameroon and r1a is indian. :picard1:

I aready know R1b, is ancient balkanic why do you keep repeating that shit? Is it because it also exists in west europe together with R1a and I and you need to assert your ''west european'' dominance? xD Just to educate you a little bit, IN the BALKANS R1b doesn't seem to go together with R1a or I2a, which seem to be associated together.... R1b is mostly associated with J2 and EV-13 Populations.

I2a came from a mass expansion to the balkans ca 2000-1500 years ago,



Progress in the field of y-DNA testing (Y-DNA sequencing) allowed to confirm that previously done TMRCA estimates for I2-L621(Dinaric) were accurate and I2-DIN(L621) is young.
There are 90+ SNPs on the level of L621 what indicates long bottleneck that lasted through eneolithic, bronze age and big part of iron age period. So the whole Dinaric branch stems from one man who lived around the year of foundation of Rome in Central-Eastern Europe, most likely as a part of proto-Slavic people.

Frequency is meaningless and calculations show that diversity and TMRCA of I2-L621 decreases in the southerly direction. So the frequency in Balkans(Bosnia in particular) is a result of relatively recent founder effect, that happened at start of Slavic presence there and later strengthened regionally. It was just a chance, that Bosnia now is 60% I2, not 60% R1a.

As for now, L621* is found only in Poland and Western Ukraine, Polish haplotype was sequenced. The tree of Dinaric branch is available here http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

So yes, it's slavic. Very young age allows for ethnic specification of this branch.



http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/


how it came:




Let's add that some Slavic groups came to the Balkans from the east, but some other from the north (from Central Europe):

http://historum.com/european-history...croats-25.html

http://historum.com/european-history...croats-26.html

http://historum.com/european-history...dinavia-4.html

Roughly like this (some smaller groups also went through what is now Eastern Hungary and Western Romania):



http://s10.postimg.org/r1inlawhl/Balkan_colonization_by_Slavs.png


Some of i2a in croatia also maybe already existed from Gothic settlements. regardless I2a was picked up by proto-slavs from goths maybe... and some of R1a in slavs might also come from Sarmatian and Scythian tribes. I still haven't denied the possibility that Iranian tribes might also of carried I2a.

[Shqipez]

There are indications that some R1a is pre-slavic in the Southern Balkans. While the Slavs may have brought more. It's Eastern Europe. So waves of Slavic-like peoples may have made their way into the Balkans before antiquity. Just like in the Middle Ages.

As for Alexander. We can only suspect. One detail people seem to forget is that his family claimed descend from Argos (Peloponesse). At least that's what they claimed. So this makes I2a and R1a (Slavic or not Slavic) less likely. If one had to bet, it's probably one of E-V13, J2 or R1b.

I agree. his family descend from Argos, and his mother was an Epirotan. EV-13 J2 or R1b are the most likely ones.

[Dianatomia]

More claims without evidence, logic or facts.

So typical for a Balkaner.

R1a, I2a, and R1b have been in the Balkans since the Indo-Europeans, where they lorded over their brown Neolithic slaves.

Leaving the hypotheses aside. When the Slavs, Avars (R1 people) and others came to the Balkans in the Middle Ages, they were (before they mixed) lorded by the much more sophisticated natives who were more J2 and E-V13, than R1. On that note, the Romans also had much more Neolothic origin than the Britons and the Germanics. Yet they were lorded by them. And they spread their Neolithic genes into the population.

As for the Proto-Greeks, it was only after they absorbed the more sophisticated Neolithic peoples that they created the right chemistry to rule. There were also some Indo-European leftovers in Anatolia as well, but they were lorded by the already largely Neolithic Greeks.

I'm half trolling ofcourse. But it's true.

[Shqipez]

How dumb are you?

The point is, the language and DNA are not anything to do with each other. Since you are a giant idiot I will just put you on ignore.

Actually the only fucking retarded giant idiot here is you. I can not even fanthom how the fuck someone can be this fucking stupid...

There is a reason why people have a language. if south slavs are not slavs where the fuck did they get their language from? From Slavs... and you're acting like these slavs did not leave any genetics only language? When there is historical proof of them mass settling in the balkans rather than military expansion and introducing slavic languages, which would of made sense that they are not slavs genetically ,,. but that's not what happened, they settled there as populations in masses, brought slavic languages with them and genetics (I2a and R1a) :picard1: and asimilated indigenous populations afterwards, EV-13, J2 and R1b. through for example bulgarian empire and also Serbian kingdom.

You're acting like some slavic minorities came to he balkans and somehow managed to dominate a majority by introducing their language... majorities don't adapt to minority cultures unless we are talking about military force here, which slavs didn't just come with, they settled as tribes. Slavic empires in the balkans came to be later on... such as the Bulgarian empire.


As I have explained 100's of times, some I2a also came with goths and R1a came also with proto-slavs such as the Sclavenis, since there were two migrations of slavs to the balkans, one was proto-slavs and the other was proto-croats, proto-serbs and proto-bulgars who also brought more of i2a and r1a... i2a they picked up around the steppes from goths, where it also peaks.

There is enough historical evidence of slavs mass settling in the balkans as tribes, so where did these people disappear? They must of left some genetics then and not just the language? which of course is i2a and r1a, there is no other genetic attribution of slavic settlements, it fits very well, and is mostly associated with slavs and goths... populations who speak a language but do not belong to that group genetically are people who were probably dominated by those military wise and adopted their language after many many years.... but with slavic settlementss it was something different... slavs did not come with military expansion, they settled as tribes, they haven't just left the language like you seem to think :picard1:

[lwt_]

"The Paleo-Balkan languages are the various Indo-European languages that were spoken in the Balkans in ancient times. Except for Greek and Albanian, they are all extinct." Aside from that, what do Albanians and Greeks also have in common? Their main Y-DNA haplogroups are: E-V13, J2, and R1b. Now lets look at the Slavic-speaking countries in the Balkans: I2 and R1a are the most common haplogroups. Coincidence? I don't think so. What does this mean? Exactly, that I2 and R1a most likely came with the Slavs. :)

[Sockorer]

Talks about claim with no evidence but where is your evidence? Your agenda is clear here... ''brown'' you think because E and J2 is also outside europe they must be brown :picard1: It's this retardness i'm talking about, with that logic r1b is cameroon and r1a is indian. :picard1:

I aready know R1b, is ancient balkanic why do you keep repeating that shit? Is it because it also exists in west europe together with R1a and I and you need to assert your ''west european'' dominance? xD Just to educate you a little bit, IN the BALKANS R1b doesn't seem to go together with R1a or I2a, which seem to be associated together.... R1b is mostly associated with J2 and EV-13 Populations.

I2a came from a mass expansion to the balkans ca 2000-1500 years ago,



http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/


how it came:




http://s10.postimg.org/r1inlawhl/Balkan_colonization_by_Slavs.png


Some of i2a in croatia also maybe already existed from Gothic settlements. regardless I2a was picked up by proto-slavs from goths maybe... and some of R1a in slavs might also come from Sarmatian and Scythian tribes. I still haven't denied the possibility that Iranian tribes might also of carried I2a.

More nonsense, look kid, when you get to Prisoner of Ice's or Unome's level then we'll talk.

For now, I suggest you hang out in the retard bin with others like you.

[Shqipez]

More nonsense, look kid, when you get to Prisoner of Ice's or Unome's level then we'll talk.

For now, I suggest you hang out in the retard bin with others like you.

Only nonsense is coming from you fucking delusional faggots. proof and logic is now nonsnese to you, answer some of my posts with reason, which I have also updated above, or have a nice fucking day/night.. if you gonna reply to me post some proof. not just your delusional nonsense bullshit.... for example I2a and R1a is not as high in Albanians because they avoided slavic settlements. None of that shit is Illyrian, Thracian or ancient Greek. Only languages spoken in the balkans today that is considered ancient is Albanian and greek, and they share the same haplogroups EV-13, J2 and R1b. they share cultural similarities and mythology etc etc. there is a bunch of shit. I2a and R1a already came later with goths and slavs.

You actually attribute looks to haplogroups xD

Balkanic people like Albanians and Greeks; the ones who are light in features look different than west europeans or north europeans, it's a matter of phenotypes... they have different phenotypes. It doesn't matter if he was blond haired, I had that shit as a kid. In the balkans, it's not neccessarily anything to do with R1a or north Europeans.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Leaving the hypotheses aside. When the Slavs, Avars (R1 people) and others came to the Balkans in the Middle Ages, they were (before they mixed) lorded by the much more sophisticated natives who were more J2 and E-V13, than R1. On that note, the Romans also had much more Neolothic origin than the Britons and the Germanics. Yet they were lorded by them. And they spread their Neolithic genes into the population.

As for the Proto-Greeks, it was only after they absorbed the more sophisticated Neolithic peoples that they created the right chemistry to rule. There were also some Indo-European leftovers in Anatolia as well, but they were lorded by the already largely Neolithic Greeks.

I'm half trolling ofcourse. But it's true.

Here is where it falls apart. There's no proof of this whatsoever. There's no ancient dna that says that any greeks were e-v13.

At the time that you talk about there is NO GREECE. It is the roman empire, and it's ruled by Illyrians. So how do you know EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of E-v13 doesn't come from Albanians? Since the E-v13 is in clumps, obviously it has not been there for thousands and thousands of years.

So essentially you just say that what happens to be there today is what was always there forever. Except for r1a which is supposedly, magically from slavs.

Ok, I understand the hypothesis. What's the proof? There is none. There's also no proof that macedonians were genetically related to southern greeks. They had much different archaeology.

So you are claiming three ridiculous, insupportable things.

First is that Greece has been unchanged. Well, that can't be obviously.

Second is that r1a came from slavs. Well, jesus christ just look at the map of r1a. Then look at ancient DNA studies that find r1a in all the places it's already in today. How can it possibly just show up and be like that? What utter nonsense.

Third, you assume macedonians are the same as people from athens. Well, we know they don't have the same exact origin. We know archaeology is different. This can't be conclusively known either way, but your agument depends on this being true. I don't assume it's true in the least.

So it's all made up. None of it means anything unless you can prove the origin for any of these y-dnas, which you can't.

[Full_Frontal]

greece has been uchanged since ancient times except for r1a which is all slavic and a slavic cluster completely unrelated to iranian r1a

j2 centers in crete so it doesn't come from elsewhere

ev13 centers in greece and albania so it's old balkan

r1b l23 is the only greek r1b and came from yamnas as recently proven-there has never been western r1b in greeks

no ancient r1a has been found in europe but all of it is from andranovo culture where it was found-the scythians

macedonians were a balkanic people so e or j2 or some I clade that is not slavic

all r1a in the balkans and turkey is exactly where slavs settled, slavic names exist, slavic rebels existed and slavic languages were spoken: until the 19th century parts of peloponnesus spoke slavic dialects same in macedonia and other places in greece

see underhill 2009 for more, all r1a was from slavic rapes and alexander the great was e or j2b like all great balkanic warriors

[Dianatomia]

Here is where it falls apart. There's no proof of this whatsoever. There's no ancient dna that says that any greeks were e-v13.

At the time that you talk about there is NO GREECE. It is the roman empire, and it's ruled by Illyrians. So how do you know EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of E-v13 doesn't come from Albanians? Since the E-v13 is in clumps, obviously it has not been there for thousands and thousands of years.


There are numerous indication that E-V13 was in Ancient Greeks. To start with
A) it is in every Greek. From Macedonians to Cretans to Cypriots to Ionian Islanders, to Pontian Greeks to Egyptian (Alexandrian Greeks).
B) it is in every locality of which we have documentation that Greeks once settled. From Spain to Pakistan.
C) There are varieties (subclades) of E-V13 found in Greeks, which are not found in Albanians. So much for that.
D) E-V13 clades have been dated and they are very old in Greeks.

Moreover, E-V13 and J2 is highest in Greeks and Albanians and decreases when you cross the Slavic language barrier.

Face it. The Greeks had it. Romans too.

[Full_Frontal]

More nonsense, look kid, when you get to Prisoner of Ice's or Unome's level then we'll talk.

For now, I suggest you hang out in the retard bin with others like you.

gypsy i will rape your slave family if you try to make great balkanic warriors subhumans like yourselves

i will fly to america

[Scholarios]

They're trolling I guess. No one is that Dumb.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

They're trolling I guess. No one is that Dumb.

If you don't have anything real to say, shut your stupid yap, turk. You don't have one shred of evidence for anything. You jus say 'just because'. What a joke.

[Scholarios]

If you don't have anything real to say, shut your stupid yap, turk. You don't have one shred of evidence for anything. You jus say 'just because'. What a joke.

See- again with the trolling. Well-played, I can barely tell if you are trolling or a quasi-retard. I'm guessing a bit of both, because only a SPED reject such as yourself is entertained by such things.

Go back to UFO documentaries and Call of Duty, Me thinks it will be more fitting for your ultra-genius level Intellect!

[Scholarios]

How dumb are you?

The point is, the language and DNA are not anything to do with each other. Since you are a giant idiot I will just put you on ignore.

Mongoloid victim of post-modernism: neither does phenotype align with YDNA -you read everything like a child- your subhuman culture clouds everything with dumb binaries. Why is this so hard for you to get? This must be a repeat of 11th grade algebra for you. So sad.

[Skerdilaid]

G faggot.




R1a thick potato heads came much later as a plague, and that fucking region hasn't seen the light since.

[Shqipez]

I'm actually trying to tell you that R1a did not just come magically with slavs, search up Sclavenis and antes. And also search up slavic migrations, the 2nd slavic migration brought both r1a and i2a... while the first one was mostly r1a since it came with proto-slavs before they got i2a. which they picked around east europe from Goths probably.

It's not magic. Proto-Slavs also mass settled in the balkans, such as the sclavenis and brought R1a. then later came proto-croats, proto-serbs and proto-bulgars, r1a and i2a carriers.

I'm trying to tell you that a population doesn't just adopt someones language unless it's through military force. for example south slavs, why do they speak slavic? Is there any proof of some slavic empire coming from the north and conquering Balkans and introducing the language and then after hundreds of years leaving and the people adopted the language? No. there isn't. it would make sense that south slavs are not slavs with this arguement if it was true, but it's not... it's true for Turks and some latin speaking people in the balkans who adopted the language of the Romans.

Slavs came in tribes, they mass settled in the balkans. They didn't just bring with them the language and left, they also brought genetics... these people didn't just disappear, they exist today too.. and before that goths also settled. if you can't attribute I2a and R1a to these people then what haplogroups can you attribute to these mass settlements?

I highly doubt Slavs settled in minorities and somehow the indigenous people of the balkans adopted their languages.... Why do Serbs and Bulgarians have the highest amount of EV-13 among slavs? Why do Bulgarians have the highest amount of R1b, EV-13 and J2 among South slavs? It's because they have asimilated indigenous people through kingdoms established after slavs settled in the balkans, bringing both r1a and i2a and also spreading it across the balkans even more.

I2a and R1a is also associated with North-Slavs..in north europe, i2a peaks around Ukraine area.. the same areas where it is said i2a in the balkans came from.. I2a is high in some north slavs too together with R1a.

Tell me more of how it didn't come with Slavs or Goths.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

G faggot.




R1a thick potato heads came much later as a plague, and that fucking region hasn't seen the light since.

G is a good choice, too.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

See- again with the trolling. Well-played, I can barely tell if you are trolling or a quasi-retard. I'm guessing a bit of both, because only a SPED reject such as yourself is entertained by such things.

Go back to UFO documentaries and Call of Duty, Me thinks it will be more fitting for your ultra-genius level Intellect!

What trolling. You are the asshole throwing an insult. If you can't make posts with a point then fuck off.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Mongoloid victim of post-modernism: neither does phenotype align with YDNA -you read everything like a child- your subhuman culture clouds everything with dumb binaries. Why is this so hard for you to get? This must be a repeat of 11th grade algebra for you. So sad.

Of course they do on average. There can be some blond of any haplotype but it's clear that original carriers of J2 and J and E-v13 are not blond. How fucking dumb do you have to be to think there's no correlation? The correlation is factual. Correlation has meaning. When we see more blond people with one haplotype than another it has statistical significance. Looks like you should get a refund for your college tuition.

[Scholarios]

Of course they do on average. There can be some blond of any haplotype but it's clear that original carriers of J2 and J and E-v13 are not blond. How fucking dumb do you have to be to think there's no correlation? The correlation is factual. Correlation has meaning. When we see more blond people with one haplotype than another it has statistical significance. Looks like you should get a refund for your college tuition.



There are as many swarthy R1A holders as there are blonde or whatever the fuck binary that is-Nordic? I don't care. So we get half of Punjab being R1a, 80% Tajiks, 30% of Kurds, how is that for statistics?

The fact is that Greeks with R1a share segments with Poles and Hungarians and not with Tajiks or Punjabis and not with Norwegians or Scots. There is zero close connection with other R1A holders- unless their clades are m458 or Z282. Do understand what clades are? Before they were analysed there was zero structure to the R1 and then R1a and R1b. Since 2009 R1a has been pretty well understood. That's why your points ( can it be called a point even? ) makes not a lick of sense. If you'd have said R1b, I couldn't have complained- but when you said R1a you advertised your middlebrow subhuman intellect for all to see.

[Shqipez]

Being swarthy or light has nothing to do with haplogroups. it's mostly climate and adaption, mutations etc.

North Europeans with blond hair could of aswell of been EV-13, j2 or whatever and still of had blond hair. why is it the more south you go the more dark on average people are? It's nothing to do with haplogroups, unless we are talking recent migrations. In the balkans you can find people with light features who belong to EV-13 and J2.

EV13 is spread all aross Europe..

Here are some Haplogroup EV-13 people, the Wright Brothers:

http://www.philipcaruso-story.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/The-Wright-Brothers.jpg

Napoleon Bonaparte, also a belonger of Haplogroup E but not EV-13:

http://www.worldstandards.eu/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/cars-Napoleon-Bonaparte.jpg

Adolf Hitler was also of said to of been some kind of haplogroup E

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_haplogroups_of_historic_people#Napoleon

[Prisoner Of Ice]

There are as many swarthy R1A holders as there are blonde or whatever the fuck binary that is-Nordic? I don't care. So we get half of Punjab being R1a, 80% Tajiks, 30% of Kurds, how is that for statistics?


There's also mtdna. The r1a in the east have more eastern r1a, and they are also the minority. how can you say what r1a population original is by looking at northern india that is only 5% r1a. Everywhere it's majority r1a everyone has light eyes and many have blond hair. Stop the lies, start the truths.



The fact is that Greeks with R1a share segments with Poles and Hungarians and not with Tajiks or Punjabis and not with Norwegians or Scots.


What's your point? Why the fuck do you keep bringing up random shit like this. First you try to prove r1a is not white (a pathetic joke) now you try to say it's not european. No one says that Alexander came from scotland for fuck's sake.



There is zero close connection with other R1A holders- unless their clades are m458 or Z282.


In most of the studies they don't break it down that far, but the r1a in balkans is definitely not all the 'slavic' type, most is not.



Do understand what clades are? Before they were analysed there was zero structure to the R1 and then R1a and R1b. Since 2009 R1a has been pretty well understood. That's why your points ( can it be called a point even? ) makes not a lick of sense. If you'd have said R1b, I couldn't have complained- but when you said R1a you advertised your middlebrow subhuman intellect for all to see.

I understand clades, you don't. All r1a forms are many, many times more related than r1a is to r1b, and all r1b is many times more closely related than I or J, which is many more times more related than E to r1a.

It's clear that r1a+ r1b is originally as white as it gets, and that E is definitely nothing to do with light hair or eyes. Thousands of years ago things would be much less mixed up.

[Shqipez]

Haplogroups have nothing to do with how you look. Haplogroup R originated in south Asia or somewhere, haplogroup E originated in east Africa. Yet it is funny how haplogroup E is mentioned as being some non white haplogroup because its high among south europeans, yet the same people never mention R and other haplogroups originating outside of Europe xD, the same logic could be applied to these haplogroups then.

If Alexander the greats army spread R1a, it would be easy to prove, so where is the proof? His army consisted mostly of Illyrians, Thracians and Greeks, I doubt all these people mostly carried R1a, other haplogroups would of been spread too, I also doubt he neccessarily carried it just because some of his soldiers did. The people claiming descendants of Alexander and his army have no genetic relationship with this for example. R1a in Asia is older than the one in Europe.

R1a and I2a in the balkans, is from slavs and gothic settlements.

R1a and I2a is associated with slavic people... its high in north slavs. I2a-din in the Balkans has a ancestor that came from Poland/Ukraine area ca 2000-1500 years ago, this ancestor has been found, I have already posted that in this thread.

Some I2a din came also before that with gothic settlements.. and some R1a came with the sclavenis and antes.

There have been different waves/migrations of people through different times that have brought the same haplogroups to the same region.


Napoleon Bonaparte was Haplogroup E, yet he looks slightly red haired in some pics. Achilles the warrior is also depicted as red haired in some cases. My brother had red hair as a kid, and I had blond hair.

Haplogroups does not equal looks.

I always knew from the start your argument is that he was R1a because he was ''blond haired'' xD yet you called me out on this like you didn't? This is your whole fucking argument which is pretty much fucking retarded.

Even the people in the balkans who are blond haired look nothing like west europeans or Slavs except for south slavs... they have their own phenotypes. So what the fuck is your point?

[Sockorer]

..

We have the yDNA of East Germanic tribes?

I'm genuinely curious as to why you think the Goths were in part responsible for the spread of I2, is it just speculation?

Do you believe they are also partially responsible for the spread of R1a or other haplogroups?

Do believe it was just the Goths or East Germanics in general?

[Sikeliot]

The fact is that Greeks with R1a share segments with Poles and Hungarians and not with Tajiks or Punjabis and not with Norwegians or Scots

Then it is either Indo-European, or later Slavic.

[Scholarios]

Then it is either Indo-European, or later Slavic.

If it's indo-european, we should share it with other non-Slavic influenced indo- Europeans. Maybe 5-10% is blanket IE. Most came with Slavs. I really am starting to believe Kurgans brought R1b and just a tiny amount of R1a. R1b Proto-Greeks mixing up with EV-13 and J2 pre-Greeks makes the most sense. AND it's supported by the literature and lab work.

[Scholarios]

There's also mtdna. The r1a in the east have more eastern r1a, and they are also the minority. how can you say what r1a population original is by looking at northern india that is only 5% r1a. Everywhere it's majority r1a everyone has light eyes and many have blond hair. Stop the lies, start the truths.

Liar, moron, or delusional???

http://thegeneticatlas.com/R1a.png

http://www.britam.org/IndiaRtypes.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png




What's your point? Why the fuck do you keep bringing up random shit like this. First you try to prove r1a is not white (a pathetic joke) now you try to say it's not european. No one says that Alexander came from scotland for fuck's sake.

Numbskull- "white" and "swarthy" are they scientific terms? I never said anything about what the original R1a people looked like and I don't give a damn for such ideological bullshit! What I am saying- which is essential to the argument- is that different clades of R1a are associated with different historical population movements- and THUS, they are not related to one another in the ways you think they are (swarthy vs. white, admixed vs. pure) R1a in Greek Macedonia does not match the clades found in Scotland or India or Kurdistan. It matches that brought by Proto-West Slavs into the Balkans. It's no more related to those than you are related to some R1b Congoid.

Conclusion: Ancient Macedonians could have looked like Dolph Lundgren, but they were not R1a based on the evidence as it stands!!




In most of the studies they don't break it down that far, but the r1a in balkans is definitely not all the 'slavic' type, most is not.

Oh, but you are wrong. Slavic M458 and Z280 are found at ratio of about 60/40 so far in Greek Macedonia. Btw, both clades lacking or very very minimal in other places associated with ancient Greeks- i.e. Western Turkey, Eastern Sicily (where btw J2-M172 is non-randomly distributed) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/abs/ejhg2008120a.html) It's not just Underhill and Nordvedt either, the conclusion has been reached numerous times. (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.abstract)




I understand clades, you don't. All r1a forms are many, many times more related than r1a is to r1b, and all r1b is many times more closely related than I or J, which is many more times more related than E to r1a.

Oh geezus. Not again. Off the topic again. Of course R1a is more related to itself than it is to R1b or or J :picard1: What I am asking is... please substantiate your claims that R1a was dominant or even more than negligibly present in Ancient Macedonia. Enough pub talk, please.


It's clear that r1a+ r1b is originally as white as it gets, and that E is definitely nothing to do with light hair or eyes. Thousands of years ago things would be much less mixed up.

Oh man. get it through your skull. History didn't begin in 1855 North Carolina!!!

[Sikeliot]

Liar, moron, or delusional???

http://thegeneticatlas.com/R1a.png


This supports Slavic, since Albanians are the least Slavicized in the Balkans. What is significant to me is, despite being R1a myself, all of the genetic elements in Greece that are NE European -- some y-dna clades, some autosomal admixture -- lack in Sicily, Calabria and such which, on the other hand, are some of the most genetically outlying Europeans along with Greek islanders.

[Scholarios]

This supports Slavic, since Albanians are the least Slavicized in the Balkans. What is significant to me is, despite being R1a myself, all of the genetic elements in Greece that are NE European -- some y-dna clades, some autosomal admixture -- lack in Sicily, Calabria and such which, on the other hand, are some of the most genetically outlying Europeans along with Greek islanders.

Right. And I am sure that Sicily has lost some of the Ancient Greek or Balkan haplogroups (E1b seems lower there than it might otherwise be). And I am also sure that some of the J2 stuff must be neolithic, but why Sicily and Calabria have almost no R1a, and much of the 2-3% that is present is clearly Scandinavian in origin from the Normans!

[Sikeliot]

Right. And I am sure that Sicily has lost some of the Ancient Greek or Balkan haplogroups (E1b seems lower there than it might otherwise be). And I am also sure that some of the J2 stuff must be neolithic, but why Sicily and Calabria have almost no R1a, and much of the 2-3% that is present is clearly Scandinavian in origin from the Normans!

Sicily is higher in J2, especially in the inland east and coastal west, than in nearly everywhere in Greece except Crete. My best guess is that the core of the Sicilian population comes from Near Easterners who island-hopped through Dodecanese and Crete, and then into Sicily/Calabria, while mainland Greece received a much larger NE Euro input.

This explains why Sicilians, Calabrese, Cretans, Ashkenazis are all genetically close. Eastern Sicily shares many subclades with Greece, and E1b1b is highest in Enna which has, also, the most 'Balkan' on 23andme of all Sicilian results I see.

Moreover, some of Sicilian E1b is the North African variety, like what you find in Iberia, and some of their J2 is Levantine.

[Scholarios]

We have the yDNA of East Germanic tribes?

I'm genuinely curious as to why you think the Goths were in part responsible for the spread of I2, is it just speculation?

Do you believe they are also partially responsible for the spread of R1a or other haplogroups?

Do believe it was just the Goths or East Germanics in general?

I will step in if you don't mind for a minute, and Bad Boy can take over since I know less about I than I do about R1a1. I can't find Ken Nortvedt's original paper at the moment, but in defense of that Southeast movement of possible Germanic-speakers bringing I2, I have seen this message he posted online. (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-08/1249581657)


Although I'm very willing to consider luck a big factor where the single ancestral lines of the old y tree roamed between their nodes, or deciding which branch lines survived and which went extinct, I here start to see a trend (or just patterns in the clouds?); it seems the ancestral line going back from the I2a2-Dinaric MRCA may have lived in more northwesterly Europe for thousands of years and then later wandered back to the Balkans before its Dinaric MRCA came onto the scene? We really have no reason to put I2a2-Dinaric in southeast Europe earlier than about 3000 years ago.

The nodes where I2a-Western (also of northwest Europe) and western Mediterranean's I2a1 M26+ branch lines parted from the branch line leading to the previously mentioned clades are far back in time --- at the beginning of the LGM.

This age combined with the fact that it's indirectly associated with movements in late antiquity (Vandals and Ostrogoths) and somewhat lacking in Modern Slavic-speaking populations where R1a m458 and z280 origin spots are would make East Germanic tribes a contender for the carriers of this. Though of course, it's a little clumsy to assign any one haplogroup to one language or culture group (or skintone!)- I think we can be safe in assuming Ostrogoths and Vandals were carrying this to a high degree- with also some R1a and others.

http://i45.tinypic.com/m7qtt3.jpg


https://thedockyards.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/episodes-26-27-gothic-migrations.png?w=510

[Unome]

It's obvious because Alexander conquered Persia and created all the AlexandR1as from whence the rest of R1 populations multiplied and spread-out. It immediately and simply explains the connection between EU4opean R1 groups and East Indian R1 groups. Alexander was not just a mere power-hungry, destructive, careless warlord (like Napoleon/Hitler), but Alexander was also an explorer and cultivator. He created culture, as is the nature of R1a to do. As per his legacy, he represents the Greatness of a man. Not only a military leader, but much more.

Also it is ridiculous to claim that R1a is "older" outside of European countries…

If r1a came from anywhere else, before Alexander, then it would either be the Scythian Steppes or Kievian Rus.

[Sikeliot]

I2 and R1a in Greece clearly came from the north, at some point. Whenever you'd like to assume they arrived, that's up for debate.

[Scholarios]

It's obvious because Alexander conquered Persia and created all the AlexandR1as from whence the rest of R1 populations multiplied and spread-out. It immediately and simply explains the connection between EU4opean R1 groups and East Indian R1 groups. Alexander was not only a warlord (like Napoleon/Hitler), but also an explorer and cultivator. He created culture, as is the nature of R1a to do.

Also it is ridiculous to claim that R1a is "older" outside of European countries…

If r1a came from anywhere else, before Alexander, then it would either be the Scythian Steppes or Kievian Rus.

No one is saying it is older in non-European countries. That's a false argument/strawman. In Greece and Balkans the majority of it comes from European countries for sure- but it's just not present there before 500 AD or so when Europe got mixed up in language and genetics compared to what it was before- especially Southeast Europe.

Scythians is a romantic fantasy- totally vague. Some could have come from Kievan Rus, sure. But there is a stronger contender for a massive population movement (https://books.google.com/books?id=Y0NBxG9Id58C&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=slavic+invasions+balkans&source=bl&ots=k4nLa-VMSa&sig=pKwgg4z_9XmbSKaLDDGpmVHLeFc&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=CmdIVcTgBcvyoAS09oGgDQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=slavic%20invasions%20balkans&f=false)into the East Mediterranean basin.



It's obvious because Alexander conquered Persia and created all the AlexandR1as from whence the rest of R1 populations multiplied and spread-out. It immediately and simply explains the connection between EU4opean R1 groups and East Indian R1 groups.


It actually doesn't explain that at all unfortunately. (since the clades arent related) I used to want to believe that the R1a in Greece was "ancient" as well, but there is just no possible way to defend the hypothesis.

[Sikeliot]

R1a could be Dorian?

[Unome]

Bad Boy mentioned 'older' group locations a few times in the thread.

Also Slavovlachs like MrMalus, ethnic Greek, represent the lineage of ancient Macedonian R1a from the root. It's obviously original and a direct line.

There simply are too few reasons to believe Alexander is anything else… using today's "modern" Greeks (are they even descendant from ancient greeks?) is fallacious, considering the fall of the Byzantine Empire and sack of Constantinople. It's dishonest to compare today's people to the ancients at the height of their glory.

It's like comparing Sweden before all the ethnic & racial immigrants flood into it and call themselves Swedish. That's dishonest. Sweden 1900AD is not the same as Sweden 2100AD. If you can't understand this in a 200 year difference then there's no way you'll understand ancient Macedonia from a 2000 year difference.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

[I][B]I will step in if you don't mind for a minute, and Bad Boy can take over since I know less about I than I do about R1a1. I can't find Ken Nortvedt's original paper at the moment, but in defense of that Southeast movement of possible Germanic-speakers bringing I2, I have seen this message he posted online. (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-08/1249581657)



This age combined with the fact that it's indirectly associated with movements in late antiquity (Vandals and Ostrogoths) and somewhat lacking in Modern Slavic-speaking populations where R1a m458 and z280 origin spots are would make East Germanic tribes a contender for the carriers of this. Though of course, it's a little clumsy to assign any one haplogroup to one language or culture group (or skintone!)- I think we can be safe in assuming Ostrogoths and Vandals were carrying this to a high degree- with also some R1a and others.

http://i45.tinypic.com/m7qtt3.jpg


https://thedockyards.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/episodes-26-27-gothic-migrations.png?w=510

And what's your point? He is not claiming that there is a magic migration that deposited all that I2 into balkans. That I2 is all over the place in the neolithic already. He is just saying that it picked some up in passing on its way to other places. It got picked up FROM balkans, not deposited there. Which has to be obvious to anyone with half a brain.

[Scholarios]

R1a could be Dorian?

Well, if Dorians were carrying the same clades as Poles and Czechs at a rate of 60/40, then yes. We need to establish why some Dorians living 3500 years ago would have been genetically identical to Poles living in the age of Charlemagne but different than Germans or other IE speakers at either time. I think that 10% of R1a in Greek Macedonia is unassigned, so possibly. If we removed Macedonia then R1a in Greece is less than in Albania even. So we'd have to ignore Dorian influence in Corinth, Sparta, Crete, Rhodes, Sicily, Epirus, Asia Minor etc. I mean, I am not saying it's impossible, but what I am saying is there isn't any reason to assume it's a main haplogroup when R1b fits so well in other respects.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Bad Boy mentioned 'older' group locations a few times in the thread.

Also Slavovlachs like MrMalus, ethnic Greek, represent the lineage of ancient Macedonian R1a from the root. It's obviously original and a direct line.

There simply are too few reasons to believe Alexander is anything else… using today's "modern" Greeks (are they even descendant from ancient greeks?) is fallacious, considering the fall of the Byzantine Empire and sack of Constantinople. It's dishonest to compare today's people to the ancients at the height of their glory.

It's like comparing Sweden before all the ethnic & racial immigrants flood into it and call themselves Swedish. That's dishonest. Sweden 1900AD is not the same as Sweden 2100AD. If you can't understand this in a 200 year difference then there's no way you'll understand ancient Macedonia from a 2000 year difference.

More importantly there's nothing to say what r1a he might have had. There is some sort of continuity in modern greece but literally every ancient greek city got wiped out and resettled several times now. So it's not nearly so much as some would claim. Probably 10-30% and some of those clades could be much newer than some expect.

But there's absolutely no continuity in macedonia. The whole province was wiped off the map by the romans and again later by germanics and likely others. So what's it matter at all what is around now? It really doesn't.

[Scholarios]

And what's your point? He is not claiming that there is a magic migration that deposited all that I2 into balkans. That I2 is all over the place in the neolithic already. He is just saying that it picked some up in passing on its way to other places. It got picked up FROM balkans, not deposited there. Which has to be obvious to anyone with half a brain.

But you have no proof- and not all I2 is equal. Fucking Christ, you and the clades.

Wow, mutations!

http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Graphics/Haplogroup_I.png

Anyways, this is a sideshow to R1a issue.

[Sikeliot]

Well, if Dorians were carrying the same clades as Poles and Czechs at a rate of 60/40, then yes. We need to establish why some Dorians living 3500 years ago would have been genetically identical to Poles living in the age of Charlemagne but different than Germans or other IE speakers at either time. I think that 10% of R1a in Greek Macedonia is unassigned, so possibly. If we removed Macedonia then R1a in Greece is less than in Albania even. So we'd have to ignore Dorian influence in Corinth, Sparta, Crete, Rhodes, Sicily, Epirus, Asia Minor etc. I mean, I am not saying it's impossible, but what I am saying is there isn't any reason to assume it's a main haplogroup when R1b fits so well in other respects.


I was always under the impression Dorians came from the northeast, and that Doric colonies in Sicily, Rhodes, etc. did not receive a large inflow of Dorian ancestry, otherwise the NE Euro element would not be so low in them.

I suspect most Greek in both places is Mycenaean.

[Scholarios]

But there's absolutely no continuity in macedonia. The whole province was wiped off the map by the romans and again later by germanics and likely others. So what's it matter at all what is around now? It really doesn't.

YES. and that's why they have 40% R1a and I*

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Liar, moron, or delusional???

http://thegeneticatlas.com/R1a.png

http://www.britam.org/IndiaRtypes.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png





Numbskull- "white" and "swarthy" are they scientific terms? I never said anything about what the original R1a people looked like and I don't give a damn for such ideological bullshit! What I am saying- which is essential to the argument- is that different clades of R1a are associated with different historical population movements- and THUS, they are not related to one another in the ways you think they are (swarthy vs. white, admixed vs. pure) R1a in Greek Macedonia does not match the clades found in Scotland or India or Kurdistan. It matches that brought by Proto-West Slavs into the Balkans. It's no more related to those than you are related to some R1b Congoid.

Conclusion: Ancient Macedonians could have looked like Dolph Lundgren, but they were not R1a based on the evidence as it stands!!





Oh, but you are wrong. Slavic M458 and Z280 are found at ratio of about 60/40 so far in Greek Macedonia. Btw, both clades lacking or very very minimal in other places associated with ancient Greeks- i.e. Western Turkey, Eastern Sicily (where btw J2-M172 is non-randomly distributed) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/abs/ejhg2008120a.html) It's not just Underhill and Nordvedt either, the conclusion has been reached numerous times. (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.abstract)





Oh geezus. Not again. Off the topic again. Of course R1a is more related to itself than it is to R1b or or J :picard1: What I am asking is... please substantiate your claims that R1a was dominant or even more than negligibly present in Ancient Macedonia. Enough pub talk, please.



Oh man. get it through your skull. History didn't begin in 1855 North Carolina!!!

Even the areas in pakistan that are high in r1a are known for their blond people. Those are only remote pockets though, north india indeed only has 5% r1a or something like that, for the total area. When the percentages are higher light skin, eyes and hair becomes more common.

Of course the original phenotypes matter for the clade. Things were not so mixed back then, and the swarty clades are not likely to produce a blond. Not doubt there was population structure as well, so even if it was 30% e-v13 that may have been only mercenaries or working class, while the rulers were more closely related. That is, if he was pale and blond with light eyes that was probably the norm for the entire upper class, making it unlikely he is from a dark man clade.

[Scholarios]

Even the areas in pakistan that are high in r1a are known for their blond people. Those are only remote pockets though, north india indeed only has 5% r1a or something like that.

Of course the original phenotypes matter for the clade. Things were not so mixed back then, and the swarty clades are not likely to produce a blond. Not doubt there was population structure as well, so even if it was 30% e-v13 that may have been only mercenaries or working class, while the rulers were more closely related. That is, if he was pale and blond with light eyes that was probably the norm for the entire upper class, making it unlikely he is from a dark man clade.

Sure. you are wrong. for the 5th time.

[Sikeliot]

Greek I2 (which I share with many on 23andme) matches Poland, Belarus, Russia and as such is likely Slavic.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

But you have no proof- and not all I2 is equal. Fucking Christ, you and the clades.

Wow, mutations!

http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Graphics/Haplogroup_I.png

Anyways, this is a sideshow to R1a issue.

No proof of what? I am not making the claim, he is. He makes a claim that is not supported (but is kind of obvious), and you used his claim to back you up. But you don't understand even what he is saying. His theory does not support your position.

If you mean proof of I2 in neolithic, we have proof of it all through the neolithic in ancient dna dug from the ground. Specific subclades don't matter much for ancient DNA as the clades found are usually never exactly the same as modern clades anyway, and they are seldom able to test all of them.

[Scholarios]

No proof of what? I am not making the claim, he is. He makes a claim that is not supported (but is kind of obvious), and you used his claim to back you up. But you don't understand even what he is saying. His theory does not support your position.

If you mean proof of I2 in neolithic, we have proof of it all through the neolithic in ancient dna dug from the ground. Specific subclades don't matter much for ancient DNA as the clades found are usually never exactly the same as modern clades anyway, and they are seldom able to test all of them.

I didn't say it backed me up- I was just saying what I thought he meant. Your strawmen are more insulting than your "faggot" insults.

Your assertion was that it was "picked up" from the Balkans. You've got no proof. Again, Nortvedt estimates it not being in the Balkans before 3000 years ago. And that's just the earliest possible date. So it's not there from the neolithic, so it's highly unlikely that it's there in the Age of Alexander. So sure, it mutated first in the neolithic maybe. But that's got nothing to do with it being in the Balkans- at least not in the South Balkans at the frequencies it currently is. O and Q are also prehistoric haplogroups, but if I find them in the Balkans today I'll look towards the Turks, not the Chinese. Duh.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

YES. and that's why they have almost 30% R1a.

But where's it come from? Slavs? Or is it from further north? To the north there has always been tons of r1a for at least 9000 years. If that's the case then how can there have been non 2500 years ago? Mystification.

So it doesn't really matter what's there now, but it does matter what is historically in the general region. Do you finally get it/

[Linebacker]

I2 is the most potent haplogroup in the central Balkan(Serbia,Bulgaria,Fyrom,Northern Greece),the area around Albania and Southern Greece and the islands being an exception where they predominantly have E1b/EV-13.

My money is on I2,even if we will never know.

[Scholarios]

But where's it come from? Slavs? Or is it from further north? To the north there has always been tons of r1a for at least 9000 years. If that's the case then how can there have been non 2500 years ago? Mystification.


It was carried there by human-beings who spoke a Slavic language. Scandinavians and others to the north have a different variety of R1a. Even Baltic R1a z660 and l784 dont really appear in the Balkans. Therefore, in shorthand we can call it "Slavic". But we have to avoid sophism if we do. There was tons of R1a in different places , sure. We don't even need to look at it's age (which you contest)- we can just look at it's frequency and it peaks in Western Poland and dims as we get to Central Germany. Charlemagne had to deal with these guys in the same way that Byzantine Emperors did (https://books.google.com/books?id=fpVOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=charlemagne+slavs&source=bl&ots=Gy6X7LNHZb&sig=M3LOhzLi6_AjO8UBv60PtMe1Rs8&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=VnFIVdTLAtGsogTv3YHgAw&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=charlemagne%20slavs&f=false). Christianize and Germanize/Hellenize them.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png




So it doesn't really matter what's there now, but it does matter what is historically in the general region. Do you finally get it/


all that for such vagueness. sigh.

[Highlands]

Bad Boy mentioned 'older' group locations a few times in the thread.

Also Slavovlachs like MrMalus, ethnic Greek, represent the lineage of ancient Macedonian R1a from the root. It's obviously original and a direct line.

There simply are too few reasons to believe Alexander is anything else… using today's "modern" Greeks (are they even descendant from ancient greeks?) is fallacious, considering the fall of the Byzantine Empire and sack of Constantinople. It's dishonest to compare today's people to the ancients at the height of their glory.

It's like comparing Sweden before all the ethnic & racial immigrants flood into it and call themselves Swedish. That's dishonest. Sweden 1900AD is not the same as Sweden 2100AD. If you can't understand this in a 200 year difference then there's no way you'll understand ancient Macedonia from a 2000 year difference.

If we consider the thought of Albanians and Greeks receiving external genetic influence from outside Europe, it would account for only 10-15% maximum. Considering the ratio of components, the affinity to EEF and WHG & the haplogroups there's no chance for a greater %.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It was carried there by human-beings who spoke a Slavic language. Scandinavians and others to the north have a different variety of R1a. Even Baltic R1a z660 and l784 dont really appear in the Balkans. Therefore, in shorthand we can call it "Slavic". But we have to avoid sophism if we do. There was tons of R1a in different places , sure. We don't even need to look at it's age (which you contest)- we can just look at it's frequency and it peaks in Western Poland and dims as we get to Central Germany. Charlemagne had to deal with these guys in the same way that Byzantine Emperors did (https://books.google.com/books?id=fpVOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=charlemagne+slavs&source=bl&ots=Gy6X7LNHZb&sig=M3LOhzLi6_AjO8UBv60PtMe1Rs8&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=VnFIVdTLAtGsogTv3YHgAw&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=charlemagne%20slavs&f=false). Christianize and Germanize/Hellenize them.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png






all that for such vagueness. sigh.

All that r1a has been there since before slavs existed. I'm not vague, you are just intentionally blind to the obvious.

[Scholarios]

Bad Boy mentioned 'older' group locations a few times in the thread.

Also Slavovlachs like MrMalus, ethnic Greek, represent the lineage of ancient Macedonian R1a from the root. It's obviously original and a direct line.

There simply are too few reasons to believe Alexander is anything else… using today's "modern" Greeks (are they even descendant from ancient greeks?) is fallacious, considering the fall of the Byzantine Empire and sack of Constantinople. It's dishonest to compare today's people to the ancients at the height of their glory.



Malus himself says his family is descendent from Serbian mercenaries settled there at end of Byzantine era or during Ottoman era. (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=ohFJD_QT3E8C&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=serbian+settlement+macedonia&source=bl&ots=WVX9RgzIaP&sig=yb9gX0U532-rQvRuauXHw15_zUg&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=eoNIVYSrPJSdoQTszYHABA&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=serbian%20settlement%20macedonia&f=false) It was a somewhat common thing. (often from Kosovo)

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yGXZW3RmvTk/VUiFW4BpP6I/AAAAAAAABYQ/TXKl6tzgPMA/w574-h570-no/serbs1.png

[Scholarios]

All that r1a has been there since before slavs existed. I'm not vague, you are just intentionally blind to the obvious.

Nope. It hasn't. Not at all. You are living in a fantasy world. There is no reason to think it's been there. I've shown you now 3 sources that say the opposite- peer reviewed btw. If blonde Jesus came down and spoke to you, I doubt you'd believe it.:picard1:


It's interesting you and Hellenas views are the same on this issue. Take that for what's worth.


http://i.lvme.me/gg538ht.jpg

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Nope. It hasn't. Not at all. You are living in a fantasy world. There is no reason to think it's been there. I've shown you now 3 sources that say the opposite- peer reviewed btw. If blonde Jesus came down and spoke to you, I doubt you'd believe it.:picard1:


It's interesting you and Hellenas views are the same on this issue. Take that for what's worth.


http://i.lvme.me/gg538ht.jpg

Are you a mental retard, or what? Scythian ancient DNA is all r1a. Corded ware y-dna is all r1a. All kurgan culture you hear about is all r1a. Indo-iranians ('aryans') were all r1a.

All the area that has some kind of r1a on that little map, already had r1a for at least 5k years, some for at least 9k years - probably all of it but it's only found a few spots so far. You simply have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

r1a may have come from india or even middle east but when people say that they are not talking about it coming in alexander's time even, let alone 600 years ago in some mythical giant migration.

Southern european mental siesta is strong in you.

[Scholarios]

Are you a mental retard, or what? Scythian ancient DNA is all r1a. Corded ware y-dna is all r1a. All kurgan culture you hear about is all r1a. Indo-iranians ('aryans') were all r1a.

All the area that has some kind of r1a on that little map, already had r1a for at least 5k years, some for at least 9k years - probably all of it but it's only found a few spots so far. You simply have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.





JESUS Christ THEY ARE DIFFERENT CLADES! Do you realize that an R1a *458 sperm will create only another R1a m458! Anyways, Yamna were part of the Kurgan culture and are R1b! "uhhh deeeer but whites conquered swartoids, ummmm prehistoric dnnnaaaayy".



r1a may have come from india or even middle east but when people say that they are not talking about it coming in alexander's time even, let alone 600 years ago in some mythical giant migration.

Turn off the program.... I never said it came from Middle east or India.(though that's possible but tangential ) Drop that notion once and for all. I am saying, the Indo-Europeans in South Balkans were largely Yamna cultures- who were R1b. If they weren't, then Greece should have it's own branch of R1a that didn't match perfectly Western Slavs. It should also appear in South Italy at at least some frequency (it doesnt really) There's no reason Greeks should be getting matches for Poland on 23and me, but Italians do not.


All the area that has some kind of r1a on that little map, already had r1a for at least 5k years,

PROOF?




You are shooting a bad score here, Let's see so far your messed up bullshit so far:


A. Slav Invasions never happened. (historical chronicles, toponyms say otherwise (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=Y0NBxG9Id58C&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=early+medieval+balkans+slavic+invasions&source=bl&ots=k4nLa0WRSi&sig=RyAa0ewJMWegvPg8abqvI6iQyog&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=_pNIVaSWDIKeoQSq5oGwBQ&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=early%20medieval%20balkans%20slavic%20invasions&f=false))
B. There is no J2 in Crete (its around 30% in Crete and radiates from ther (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/J2-Distribution.jpg)e)
C. North India has only 5% R1a (it has up to 40% (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/R1a-map.JPG))
D. No differentiation between I and R1a clades (different clades are associated with different historical and prehistoric movements) (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2009/11/r1a1a7-signal-of-slavic-expansions-from.html)
E. j2 in Sicily from Arabs(studies show a differentiation between a north african derived portion of the island (6% at most) and a Greek portion (up to 30%) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html)
F. Greek Macedonia has no or little genetic continuity, (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x/pdf) though it is more than 40% R1a and I clades, which according to you are the native "white" clades to the region. (makes my head spin three times and I pass out from the moron fumes!)
G. What else?

[Weedman]

All kurgan culture you hear about is all r1a.

not all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

Yamna remains were all R1b.


besides, the oldest Kurgan burials came from south of the Caucasus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/kurgan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura-Araxes_culture

[Dianatomia]

R1a arrived in different waves in Greece. In antiquitity as well as mediaval times. What also should be noted. If R1a was more prevalent in the North of Greece, then this would not show up in Southern Italy since Greek colonizers came from other area's.

Do the math. If mainland Greece (excluding Macedonia) has 10% R1a and 6% is ancient, then how much would you expect to find in Southern Italy? Something like 2% at best. Even Cyprus has 3% of R1a. Crete has 9% and the Aegean islands have 10%. As much as mainland Greece. All of it came from Slavs? That would be a-historical.

We still have to find out some things about R1a in Greece. But we know it has different origins.

[Scholarios]

R1a arrived in different waves in Greece. In antiquitity as well as mediaval times. What also should be noted. If R1a was more prevalent in the North of Greece, then this would not show up in Southern Italy since Greek colonizers came from other area's.

Do the math. If mainland Greece (excluding Macedonia) has 10% R1a and 6% is ancient, then how much would you expect to find in Southern Italy? Something like 2% at best. Even Cyprus has 3% of R1a. Crete has 9% and the Aegean islands have 10%. As much as mainland Greece. All of it came from Slavs? That would be a-historical.

We still have to find out some things about R1a in Greece. But we know it has different origins.


Not at all. The pure Greek continuity thing serves nordicist revisionism in this case. Even in South Greece r1a is like 5-6 times higher than in Sicily and Calabria. As said already, King found about 90% of R1a in North Greece is medeival origin clades. South italy has settlements from Greek macedonia as well, such as the town of Galliciano which is made up of refugees of Kilkis escaping Slavs and Bulgarians in the 10th century. ( and they still speak Greek there even) .

Certainly there is more R1a and I2 in modern Achaea- which is where the settlers at Poesodonia came from - and so on. I think there might be a little truth to what you're saying- but after the Macedonian conquest of South Greece , I can't see how Macedonians and epirotes wouldn't have been present in huge numbers in magna graecia. I mean, do you actually believe the Macedonians conquered the known world and the only place their genetics survived outside Greece is in Poland and Czech?

I'm sure some r1a has been in Greece awhile, but a tiny minority 1-5% of the total I guess.

It isn't a-historical at all. Greek islanders got their smaller r1a from mixing with mainlanders. That's obvious. Otherwise South Italian colony areas should have 10% r1a... Or at least 5%. They don't. And what they do have are Norman clades.

[Journeyman26]

JESUS Christ THEY ARE DIFFERENT CLADES! Do you realize that an R1a *458 sperm will create only another R1a m458! Anyways, Yamna were part of the Kurgan culture and are R1b! "uhhh deeeer but whites conquered swartoids, ummmm prehistoric dnnnaaaayy".




Turn off the program.... I never said it came from Middle east or India.(though that's possible but tangential ) Drop that notion once and for all. I am saying, the Indo-Europeans in South Balkans were largely Yamna cultures- who were R1b. If they weren't, then Greece should have it's own branch of R1a that didn't match perfectly Western Slavs. It should also appear in South Italy at at least some frequency (it doesnt really) There's no reason Greeks should be getting matches for Poland on 23and me, but Italians do not.



PROOF?




You are shooting a bad score here, Let's see so far your messed up bullshit so far:


A. Slav Invasions never happened. (historical chronicles, toponyms say otherwise (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=Y0NBxG9Id58C&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=early+medieval+balkans+slavic+invasions&source=bl&ots=k4nLa0WRSi&sig=RyAa0ewJMWegvPg8abqvI6iQyog&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=_pNIVaSWDIKeoQSq5oGwBQ&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=early%20medieval%20balkans%20slavic%20invasions&f=false))
B. There is no J2 in Crete (its around 30% in Crete and radiates from ther (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/J2-Distribution.jpg)e)
C. North India has only 5% R1a (it has up to 40% (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/R1a-map.JPG))
D. No differentiation between I and R1a clades (different clades are associated with different historical and prehistoric movements) (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2009/11/r1a1a7-signal-of-slavic-expansions-from.html)
E. j2 in Sicily from Arabs(studies show a differentiation between a north african derived portion of the island (6% at most) and a Greek portion (up to 30%) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html)
F. Greek Macedonia has no or little genetic continuity, (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x/pdf) though it is more than 40% R1a and I clades, which according to you are the native "white" clades to the region. (makes my head spin three times and I pass out from the moron fumes!)
G. What else?

Bravo sir... my hat is off to you.

[Drawing-slim]

Alexander most likely had E-V13. Because E-V13 is responsible for the purest dinaric race, dinarid also being responsible for producing the most intelligence in all other races..so it only makes sense they can walk alway to India and have the intellect to lead and conquer..
Perhaps Alexander wasn't phenotically dinarid But it doesn't change the fact that he was indeed a e-v13 albo 100%.

[OnceLord]

I would actually say odds are Alexander was some sort of R1.. Remember he lived before Our Lord and Saviour, so pretty much in between the early Indo European era and modern day..

Looks like R1 is very associated with Indo Europeans, so the odds are pretty good IMO that more of the royalty in Eurasia back then had Indo Euro descended R1 than others

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Sicily is higher in J2, especially in the inland east and coastal west, than in nearly everywhere in Greece except Crete. My best guess is that the core of the Sicilian population comes from Near Easterners who island-hopped through Dodecanese and Crete, and then into Sicily/Calabria, while mainland Greece received a much larger NE Euro input.

This explains why Sicilians, Calabrese, Cretans, Ashkenazis are all genetically close. Eastern Sicily shares many subclades with Greece, and E1b1b is highest in Enna which has, also, the most 'Balkan' on 23andme of all Sicilian results I see.

Moreover, some of Sicilian E1b is the North African variety, like what you find in Iberia, and some of their J2 is Levantine.

Yes. I believe that.

[Drawing-slim]

I would actually say odds are Alexander was some sort of R1.. Remember he lived before Our Lord and Saviour, so pretty much in between the early Indo European era and modern day..

Looks like R1 is very associated with Indo Europeans, so the odds are pretty good IMO that more of the royalty in Eurasia back then had Indo Euro descended R1 than othersit makes no sense at all. If we look at the region he grew up and his forfathers, it is a dominated area of E-V13 and knowing that E-v13 was born in this region it could have been only that. 1800 years before Slavs came to the region so take way all Slavic carriers, the time & space of Alexander and his forfathers before him which is historically known natives to the area, the tales of northern barbarian mountain tribes sending and receiving gifts from one another leads only to E-V13

[Shqipez]

We have the yDNA of East Germanic tribes?

I'm genuinely curious as to why you think the Goths were in part responsible for the spread of I2, is it just speculation?

Do you believe they are also partially responsible for the spread of R1a or other haplogroups?

Do believe it was just the Goths or East Germanics in general?

Historical records. I2a could of also have been carried by Iranic tribes such as Sarmatian and scythians around the steppes, who also carried R1a.. all these people came in contact with Proto-Slavs.

The name Serb and Croat come from Sarmatian/Scythian tribes. Serbs and Croats prior to settling in Bosnia and Croatia were recorded as being Sarmatian tribes who lived around the steppes/caucasus.

Search up Iranic origin of proto-Serb and proto-Croats. they came in contact with Slavs in East Europe and asimilated with Slavs. from there they moved to the balkans and also absorbed indigenous genes such as EV-13, R1b and J2. They brought with them the Slavic language and also A LOT of I2a and some R1a. Prior to that R1a was also brought by Sclavenis and Antes... some I2a could of also been brought by Goths who settled around Croatia, and I don't refuse that Goths might of also brought some R1a.

I don't see how claiming that I2a in the balkans was majorly brought by Slavs together with R1a is off the map. I2a-din-south has already been proven to be new. it's no more than 2000-1500 years in the balkans. it came from Poland/Ukraine area.

These things are also based on historical records.

But you claim that EV-13 and J2 in Europe are somehow leftovers of slaves. I know there have been slaves used in Europe and a lot of those people were Slavs themselves, r1a carriers and i2a. How can whole populations be descendants of slaves? How can all the J2 and E in Serbs, Romanians, Bulgarians, Bosnians, Croatians, Greeks, Albanians, Aromanians be from slaves? Doesn't this claim seem more delusional to you? Is there even any historical record of slavery having such an impact? And then spreaing to Europe? When there is proof haplogroup EV-13 was alreay in Europe during the neolithic age. they have found some dude in spain who matched Balkaner EV-13.

South-Slavs have E and J2 from indigenous people they have asimilated.

Albanian language developed from Illyrian/Thracian. So There is no doubt Illyrians and Thracians were EV-13, J2 and R1b carriers. I don't see for example how Albanians are leftovers of Slaves who adopted some Thraco-Illyrian language and customes, while south slavs who speak slavic somehow are Illyrians/Thracians. This is just delusional. Also that I2a and R1a is ancient greek is delusion as well... so somehow Ancient people in the balkans started speaking slavic but their ''Slaves'' adopted indigenous languages? xD

Why does the genetic of south slavs match north slavs? Why do a lot of south slavs plot on the slavic side more than anything else?

For example both north slavs and south slavs have majorly I2a an R1a...

As I explained earlier, some of you seem to buy into the notion that language does not equal genetics. As I have explained it all depends, a lot of time it actually does. people just don't adopt other peoples languages unless they are ruled by them over a long period of time. Did this happen when Slavs invaded the Balkans? No. They settled as tribes, they mass settled... so of course they also brought genetics with them, and if you can't attribute I2a and R1a to this then what can you?

You people also seem to forget Alexanders mother was from Epirus. His cousin was Pyrrhus of Epirus, another great general.

Also Napoleon Bonaparte belonged to Haplogroup E... if it was never proved you would of said he was R1b, or something since it is common around those regions, I think. xD It's the same concept with Alexander and Pyrrhus, probably both EV-13, J2 or R1b.... most likely EV-13 and J2.

[Dianatomia]

Not at all. The pure Greek continuity thing serves nordicist revisionism in this case. Even in South Greece r1a is like 5-6 times higher than in Sicily and Calabria. As said already, King found about 90% of R1a in North Greece is medeival origin clades. South italy has settlements from Greek macedonia as well, such as the town of Galliciano which is made up of refugees of Kilkis escaping Slavs and Bulgarians in the 10th century. ( and they still speak Greek there even) .

Certainly there is more R1a and I2 in modern Achaea- which is where the settlers at Poesodonia came from - and so on. I think there might be a little truth to what you're saying- but after the Macedonian conquest of South Greece , I can't see how Macedonians and epirotes wouldn't have been present in huge numbers in magna graecia. I mean, do you actually believe the Macedonians conquered the known world and the only place their genetics survived outside Greece is in Poland and Czech?

I'm sure some r1a has been in Greece awhile, but a tiny minority 1-5% of the total I guess.

It isn't a-historical at all. Greek islanders got their smaller r1a from mixing with mainlanders. That's obvious. Otherwise South Italian colony areas should have 10% r1a... Or at least 5%. They don't. And what they do have are Norman clades.

First of all, what impact do you think the Ancient Macedonians had? Their original habitat is extremely small. A small part of Northern Greece (much smaller than the Greek province of Macedonia). There were some small cities there and some mountain villages. Philip constantly assimilated conquered peoples into his army in order to make it antagonistic. His son applied this even to non-Greeks. They didn't really have the numbers to dominate demographically. In the Hellenistic era, the Greek settlements all over his Empire came from the Greek world as a whole.

Second, to suggest that the Islands and Crete have the same amount of R1a because of mainland Greek migration is laughable. If we were to take this claim seriously, the whole island population was replaced by mainland Greeks in the late Middle Ages. Asia minor Greeks also have R1a. You really think it's all from Slavs? Even if it's ancient and it entered Greece from the mainland one would expect less R1a in the islands than in the mainland. Yet, aside from Macedonia, it is practically similar.

Finally. Consider that all Indo-European migrations came from Eastern Europe, and that region is full of R1a, wouldn't it be logical to suggest that they carried some R1a?


Not at all. The pure Greek continuity thing serves nordicist revisionism in this case.

I really don't care about the nordicist agenda and who it serves. All I care about is evidence. The question at hand is whether R1a was present in ancient Greece.
What Nirdicist want to do with this is their problem. I didn't claim that a separate group of R1a people dominated or anything silly like that. Simply that R1a and R1b was part of the ancestral dimension of the population just as it is now. Being Greek means having Neolithic as well as Indo-European origin. Simple as that.

[Sikeliot]

Not at all. The pure Greek continuity thing serves nordicist revisionism in this case. Even in South Greece r1a is like 5-6 times higher than in Sicily and Calabria. As said already, King found about 90% of R1a in North Greece is medeival origin clades. South italy has settlements from Greek macedonia as well, such as the town of Galliciano which is made up of refugees of Kilkis escaping Slavs and Bulgarians in the 10th century. ( and they still speak Greek there even) .

Sicilians' Greek ancestors came from all over -- Euboea, Peloponnese, Chalkidiki, Rhodes, Asia Minor, Crete, etc. But autosomal DNA taken into account, they are very close to Crete and the Dodecanese, and not to mainland Greece except SE Laconia (which received Cretan migration over the last thousand years).

There has to be some reason for this.

[Sockorer]

....

Ok, we know I2(Let me be more specific with what I mean by I2, the clade I2a1b Dinaric, Disles, and Isles, the stuff in the Balkans, Eastern and Central Europe mostly. ) is pretty new, it was spread recently, and we're speculating that it could have been spread by all or none of these groups, the Slavs, East Germanics, and Iranian steppe nomads because the Balkans, Central and Eastern Europe were their recent historical playgrounds. Yes?

Is there any of the stuff in other places where East Germanics migrated too, Iberia, Italy, North Africa? Don't Kurds have the I2a1b or is it a different clade of I2?

[Faklon]

...There's no reason Greeks should be getting matches for Poland on 23and me, but Italians do not...

Agreed almost wholly(lol@how the thread escalated btw),may also note that R1b has appeared in Corded Ware.

However Italians do seem to get Poland as a close match (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?168872-IBD-sharing-for-Italians-by-region-23andme) which combined with their halpogroups is noteworthy.

Taking Cyprus as a proxy we see that R1a has 1/3 times the frequency of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml).

By the numbers Underhill gave us for R-M458 we have.


he samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%.

You also said CTS1211 is 1/3 of the total R1a.

Reducing the R1a in Greece by more or less 2/3 plus a little more in the North and a little less in the South we get a similar picture with Cyprus where R1a is 1/3 times less frequent than R1b,maybe slightly more in the North and less in the South/Aegean but close enough.

Do we have anything about R1a and I2 in Cyprus?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Second, to suggest that the Islands and Crete have the same amount of R1a because of mainland Greek migration is laughable. If we were to take this claim seriously, the whole island population was replaced by mainland Greeks in the late Middle Ages. Asia minor Greeks also have R1a. You really think it's all from Slavs? Even if it's ancient and it entered Greece from the mainland one would expect less R1a in the islands than in the mainland. Yet, aside from Macedonia, it is practically similar.


Unless slavs built some ships...obviously no one has really settled the islands for many centuries.



Finally. Consider that all Indo-European migrations came from Eastern Europe, and that region is full of R1a, wouldn't it be logical to suggest that they carried some R1a?


Probably r1b for mycenaeans, not r1a.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Ok, we know I2 is pretty new, it was spread recently, and we're speculating that it could have been spread by all or none of these groups, the Slavs, East Germanics, and Iranian steppe nomads who may have spread it because the Balkans, Central and Eastern Europe were their recent historical playgrounds. Yes?

I2 is found in megalithic and neolithic cultures.

[Faklon]

Unless slavs built some ships...obviously no one has really settled the islands for many centuries.


Ships were invented the year 1977 in California.

Islands are trade centers,islanders even had colonies in Dalmatia.

Usually it's mountains that don't attract people,mountains in islands probably even less.

[Sikeliot]

Unless slavs built some ships...obviously no one has really settled the islands for many centuries.


Not true. Venetians were on many islands, and many were repopulated from mainland Greece and Asia Minor during the Ottoman era. People moved around a lot.

[Sockorer]

I2 is found in megalithic and neolithic cultures.

Let me be more specific with what I mean by I2, the clade I2a1b Dinaric, Disles, and Isles, the stuff in the Balkans, Eastern and Central Europe mostly.

[Faklon]

Not true. Venetians were on many islands, and many were repopulated from mainland Greece and Asia Minor during the Ottoman era. People moved around a lot.

You seem to know too much about semi-documented repopulations for a guy who claimed that Normans never set foot in Messina.

Just shut up.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Let me be more specific with what I mean by I2, the clade I2a1b Dinaric, Disles, and Isles, the stuff in the Balkans, Eastern and Central Europe mostly.

It doesn't really mean anything.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Not true. Venetians were on many islands, and many were repopulated from mainland Greece and Asia Minor during the Ottoman era. People moved around a lot.

I don't think there is any chance at all that venetians spread r1a into greek isles. Venetians almost exclusively settled into the already highly populous regions. Venetian citizenship could be bought as well, so many of the 'venetian' merchants were jews and other foreigners.

No one settles much on islands once they are settled unless they wipe out the previous population somehow. There is limited space, food and chance for industry on an island and tourism was only for a few nobles and super rich merchants in those days.

I bolded the part about jews and other foreign influence. May as well get the crying of hellenas and scholario moribundo out of the way.

[Faklon]

...

There you have it.

Inceliot says some shit and you have Jewnetians,repopulation by slaughter inside the same empires,the mediterranean islands in Alaska,industrial revolution and tourism development in 1000 AD.

[Sikeliot]

You seem to know too much about semi-documented repopulations for a guy who claimed that Normans never set foot in Messina.


I said they did not leave much genetic impact, considering people in Messina are some of the least "North Euro" in all of Sicily. All Sicilians come up roughly half Iberian-like, half Levantine-like. You shut up.

[Dianatomia]

Not true. Venetians were on many islands, and many were repopulated from mainland Greece and Asia Minor during the Ottoman era. People moved around a lot.

A bit of an overstatement. Given that even Myceneans didn't manage to alter much of the Neolithic DNA of Cretans (J2a). While they have almost as much as R1a as mainland Greece (excl. Macedonia).

I think both R1a as well as I were present in Ancient Greeks. Slavs brought some more. They pushed it further south.

[Sikeliot]

A bit of an overstatement. Given that even Myceneans didn't manage to alter much of the Neolithic DNA of Cretans (J2a). While they have almost as much as R1a as mainland Greece (excl. Macedonia).

I think both R1a as well as I were present in Ancient Greeks. Slavs brought some more. They pushed it further south.


Mycenaeans were E1b1b we are assuming then, not J2, right?

J2 is also more common in southern Italy than E1b, even in Greek-settled places.

[Dianatomia]

Agreed almost wholly(lol@how the thread escalated btw),may also note that R1b has appeared in Corded Ware.

However Italians do seem to get Poland as a close match (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?168872-IBD-sharing-for-Italians-by-region-23andme) which combined with their halpogroups is noteworthy.

Taking Cyprus as a proxy we see that R1a has 1/3 times the frequency of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml).

By the numbers Underhill gave us for R-M458 we have.


Yes, but Cyprus has one ancient indo-european migration wave less than Greece. The Dorians. They never settled there.
Even so, R1b is less than it is in Greece, as expected. But R1a should also be lower that in Greece. Yet, they have 3% of R1a. So, R1a in Ancient mainland Greeks could only have been higher than in Cyprus. Just like R1b and E-V13 is.

[Faklon]

Yes, but Cyprus has one ancient indo-european migration wave less than Greece. The Dorians. They never settled there.
Even so, R1b is less than it is in Greece, as expected. But R1a should also be lower that in Greece. Yet, they have 3% of R1a. So, R1a in Ancient mainland Greeks could only have been higher than in Cyprus. Just like R1b and E-V13 is.

What makes Dorians an extra IE migration?They seem like a mix of proto-Greeks+"native"/neolithic Epirots that later came down.

The question is what subclade of R1a do Cypriots belong to so you may ally it to R1b.

It seems to be similar to the Punjabi here. (http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png)

So maybe Alexander was a Jatt.

[Dianatomia]

What makes Dorians an extra IE migration?They seem like a mix of proto-Greeks+"native"/neolithic Epirots that later came down.

The question is what subclade of R1a do Cypriots belong to so you may ally it to R1b.

It seems to be similar to the Punjabi here. (http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png)

So maybe Alexander was a Jatt.

They could have carried some R1a too. They are a candidate.

[Scholarios]

First of all, what impact do you think the Ancient Macedonians had? Their original habitat is extremely small. A small part of Northern Greece (much smaller than the Greek province of Macedonia). There were some small cities there and some mountain villages. Philip constantly assimilated conquered peoples into his army in order to make it antagonistic. His son applied this even to non-Greeks. They didn't really have the numbers to dominate demographically. In the Hellenistic era, the Greek settlements all over his Empire came from the Greek world as a whole.


The Ancient Macedonians were an exploding population at the time of Philip II's reforms. See, where this reasoning falls flat is that you can't say that Ancient Macedonians demographic numbers and region is small, but then say that R1a carried by them is 14% in Greece. (and that doesn't even include other Northern type clades like I which are an additional 15% in Greece but basically absent from South Italy) Actually, the lowest estimates for the population of Philip's Macedonia (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=NRQaBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=population+ancient+macedonia&source=bl&ots=wNaYCWtFpm&sig=PoX3Gbl6-fvNc2byC1ZUa7jghnU&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=v3ZJVfGTN6OrmAXk54HwAw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=population%20ancient%20macedonia&f=false)put it much much higher than even the most populated cities of South Greece.


Second, to suggest that the Islands and Crete have the same amount of R1a because of mainland Greek migration is laughable. If we were to take this claim seriously, the whole island population was replaced by mainland Greeks in the late Middle Ages. Asia minor Greeks also have R1a. You really think it's all from Slavs? Even if it's ancient and it entered Greece from the mainland one would expect less R1a in the islands than in the mainland. Yet, aside from Macedonia, it is practically similar.

Crete was also settled by Slavs. Hell, even in 626 we have Slav pirates ferrying Persian invaders (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=EL_VMQ_JhAEC&pg=PA199&lpg=PA199&dq=monoxyles+slavs&source=bl&ots=e9WouekPbN&sig=6zl3s2AJKN5uYH1PTtWIrHTtr6Q&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=xWxJVfDGBqLpmAX3x4DgAw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=monoxyles%20slavs&f=false)across the Bosporus in their wooden-log boats (must have been a sight)- which is notoriously treacherous pass. So Slavs got around by sea if they hugged the coast. Later they learned the sea technology from Byzantines and used it to raid the Aegean, along with Arabs: Speros Vyronis:

The text shows, clearly, that the Slavs had fashioned a new type of ship, unlike the older and crude monoxyles which were suitable only for rivers and for shallow coastal movement, the ζευκτάς ναΰς. And as we see it was quite capable of carrying out raids and attacks on the high Aegean seas, particulary along the shipping lanes that lead from the Aegean toward Constantinople. The Slavs were finally at their ease in the Aegean Sea, and had learned the ropes from the local maritime technology.

Both during the initial invasions and during the invasion and settlement by Nikephorus Phokas from the Saracens. (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=0TGUBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA20-IA11&lpg=PA20-IA11&dq=crete+slavs+phokas&source=bl&ots=1xl_WrmqJk&sig=MwyVerWuRJaKtNIfU5iqopruf7I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fFdJVda2LaW-mgXItYHAAg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=crete%20slavs%20phokas&f=false) There are even several villages (http://promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_22.htm#13) with the prefix "slavo" in Western Crete Add in a few Varangians, and of course mixing from the mainland, and 8.8% R1a sounds about right. Heck, even in Ikaria where part of my family is from one of the most common names is Moraitis. Now imagine if he brought R1a with him when his family settled there whenever....


Finally. Consider that all Indo-European migrations came from Eastern Europe, and that region is full of R1a, wouldn't it be logical to suggest that they carried some R1a?

It's quite logical, but considering what we know about Yamna Kurgans- they mostly carried R1b (all Yamna dna was R1b so far-R1b-Z2103 (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/haplogroups_of_bronze_age_proto-indo-europeans.shtml), which reaches it's highest point in the Central Balkans, if I am not mistaken). Sure, there was probably some R1a too. But smaller, and I bet it was not the ones currently found as majority of R1a in North Greece. There is autosomal evidence as well. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0)




I really don't care about the nordicist agenda and who it serves. All I care about is evidence. The question at hand is whether R1a was present in ancient Greece.

The evidence so far though is that it wasn't. But I don't mind to be pleasantly surprised. It'd be a miracle if Myceneans had R1a*m458 though yet South Italy and Asia Minor lacked it.


What Nirdicist want to do with this is their problem. I didn't claim that a separate group of R1a people dominated or anything silly like that. Simply that R1a and R1b was part of the ancestral dimension of the population just as it is now. Being Greek means having Neolithic as well as Indo-European origin. Simple as that.


I agree- but when people say 'Alexander was probably R1a" I can smell a filthy agenda, and in this case I am right about most who claimed it earlier in this thread. There's no compelling reason to suggest it was the Clade of ancient Macedonians and there is a lot of evidence to suggest it wasnt. At least not in the amounts it currently has. Sure, there is some R1a (less) in the islands, but since the islands have had lots of contact with the mainland since 750 AD, there is no need to look for R1a origins in Dorians or Myceneans for the most part IMHO.

[Scholarios]

Agreed almost wholly(lol@how the thread escalated btw),may also note that R1b has appeared in Corded Ware.

However Italians do seem to get Poland as a close match (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?168872-IBD-sharing-for-Italians-by-region-23andme) which combined with their halpogroups is noteworthy.

You are right about that. I stand corrected. I should always be wary of 23andme stuff, but I jumped to conclusions too quickly.


Taking Cyprus as a proxy we see that R1a has 1/3 times the frequency of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml).

By the numbers Underhill gave us for R-M458 we have.




You also said CTS1211 is 1/3 of the total R1a.

Reducing the R1a in Greece by more or less 2/3 plus a little more in the North and a little less in the South we get a similar picture with Cyprus where R1a is 1/3 times less frequent than R1b,maybe slightly more in the North and less in the South/Aegean but close enough.

Do we have anything about R1a and I2 in Cyprus?


This is all I have at the moment. Would love to see that R1b and R1a breakdown though.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y489/mnd_6/cyp_haplo_zps5828e8b7.jpg


It seems most of the research there has focused on J clades.




I don't want to push too hard to Sikeliotism, but his ideas about Ydna seem correct, even if his physical anthropology stuff is very flawed. Remember, Ydna is just a tiny portion of genetic makeup, and Medieval Greeks and Slavs were probably fairly similar anyways in a lot of their makeup (see again 23andme).


And of course, Prisoner of Ice's default conclusion that 45% of Kosovo is descended from Roman-era African slaves or whatever is completely fucking retarded on a scale astronomically greater than the worst Sikeliotism.

[Weedman]

I would actually say odds are Alexander was some sort of R1.. Remember he lived before Our Lord and Saviour, so pretty much in between the early Indo European era and modern day..

Looks like R1 is very associated with Indo Europeans, so the odds are pretty good IMO that more of the royalty in Eurasia back then had Indo Euro descended R1 than others even if that was true
Alexander the Great lived in 400-300 B.C,

by that time the earlier Indo-European speakers of that area would have long mixed with the Mesolithic, Neolithic, and pre-Indo European population.

you're only talking about circa 350 B.C. ,not 2500 B.C.

by 300 BC All Macedonians, Greeks and others would have been Indo-Europeans and Indo-Europeanized


his Y-DNA could literally have been anything, historical to that region

people didn't follow genetics or looks then, they only followed strength. And again. by 300 BC, the original Indo-Europeans who had spead into Thrace, Macedonia and Greece, would have been heavily mixed with the earlier population and peoples.

I seriously doubt the population of Macedonia, or that whole area in Europe, would have looked dramatically different then, in 300 B.C., as they do now, except for later Slavic migrations and then, maybe, a few Romans here and there just to be technical about it.

[Sikeliot]

I don't want to push too hard to Sikeliotism, but his ideas about Ydna seem correct, even if his physical anthropology stuff is very flawed.

What is wrong with my views about physical anthropology?? I never said Greeks look fully Slavic, but that many do have an East European "Slavicized" vibe lacking in southern Italians and western Turks, and especially lacking in Cyprus. With the autosomal and y-dna evidence it'd be very unlikely for it to be any other way.

I have seen on 23andme a few southern Italians with I2 but they are all Apulian.

[Unome]

Everybody talking about r1a concentrations in the Steppes and Kievan Rus are just plain wrong. Today's concentrations are not the same thing as 2000+ years ago, nor do they demonstrate origins. Concentrations of phenotype only signify exactly what it is, a concentration, a stronghold, not a home, not an origin, necessarily.

(Also consider the accumulation of population over 2000 years… would result in millions of people, but that needs to be accounted for by the hypothesis!)

Alexander's eastward conquest explains the distribution of r1a into India. Other hypotheses cannot account for this. So it is the most likely scenario.

Furthermore r1a is a cultivating type, which coincides with Alexander's compulsion to create the many cultural city centers: Alexandr1as. It's too obvious at this point.


Just because some Turkish-mixed-blooded Greeks want to change the history books, doesn't mean a thing. Turks are always obsessed with propaganda and historical revisionism, wanting to claim everything as their own. Too bad, you need reasonable premises, simple hypotheses, and sensible conclusions. Otherwise you fail in objectivity and science. Also the talk about "older" subclade groups is irrelevant, neither here nor there.

The Macedonian incursion into Persia (Indo-Aryans), ancient Iran and the Middle East, explains everything.

Europeans conquered the Middle East millenniums ago; we don't need to repeat history. It's unnecessary.

[Scholarios]

Everybody talking about r1a concentrations in the Steppes and Kievan Rus are just plain wrong. Today's concentrations are not the same thing as 2000+ years ago, nor do they demonstrate origins. Concentrations of phenotype only signify exactly what it is, a concentration, a stronghold, not a home, not an origin, necessarily.

(Also consider the accumulation of population over 2000 years… would result in millions of people, but that needs to be accounted for by the hypothesis!)

Alexander's eastward conquest explains the distribution of r1a into India. Other hypotheses cannot account for this. So it is the most likely scenario.

Furthermore r1a is a cultivating type, which coincides with Alexander's compulsion to create the many cultural city centers: Alexandr1as. It's too obvious at this point.


Just because some Turkish-mixed-blooded Greeks want to change the history books, doesn't mean a thing. Turks are always obsessed with propaganda and historical revisionism, wanting to claim everything as their own. Too bad, you need reasonable premises, simple hypotheses, and sensible conclusions. Otherwise you fail in objectivity and science. Also the talk about "older" subclade groups is irrelevant, neither here nor there.

The Macedonian incursion into Persia (Indo-Aryans), ancient Iran and the Middle East, explains everything.

Europeans conquered the Middle East millenniums ago; we don't need to repeat history. It's unnecessary.


According to that theory you can just say any clade of anything was "different 2000 years ago ago" and it can mean anything you want and none of this is worth anything and there is no point in studying it or dna test or even opening a damned history book ever. It's either pure ideology or pure subhuman intellect or some combination of both.


I mean, the idea that R1a in India results from Alexander is like pure fantasy. The only vestige of these clades of R1a in Europe are found in... you guessed it: GYPSIES

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png..

and even in them it's a minority clade...

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/10/hap.jpg

So basically, Gigolo/Duke of Windsor is the closest thing to descendent of Alexander the Great in Europe, according to your theory. (no offense to him of course)

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The text shows, clearly, that the Slavs had fashioned a new type of ship, unlike the older and crude monoxyles which were suitable only for rivers and for shallow coastal movement, the ζευκτάς ναΰς. And as we see it was quite capable of carrying out raids and attacks on the high Aegean seas, particulary along the shipping lanes that lead from the Aegean toward Constantinople. The Slavs were finally at their ease in the Aegean Sea, and had learned the ropes from the local maritime technology.


lol



I agree- but when people say 'Alexander was probably R1a" I can smell a filthy agenda, and in this case I am right about most who claimed it earlier in this thread. There's no compelling reason to suggest it was the Clade of ancient Macedonians and there is a lot of evidence to suggest it wasnt. At least not in the amounts it currently has. Sure, there is some R1a (less) in the islands, but since the islands have had lots of contact with the mainland since 750 AD, there is no need to look for R1a origins in Dorians or Myceneans for the most part IMHO.

You told me that the undocumented fantasy invasion of slavs jumped off their horses and built viking ships and colonized the whole agean motherfucker, now you are talking about an agenda! :lol:

Well we have r1a in the area going back 9k years in ancient genetics, and r1a all through anatolia and the agean. And he was white guy with blond hair.

It's the only reasonable conclusion....

[Prisoner Of Ice]

where j2b exist outside of russia and greece?? it exist outside europe??? is it slavic haplougroup??

thanks if you can answer..

Circassians are J2. Iam not sure if j2b.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

According to that theory you can just say any clade of anything was "different 2000 years ago ago" and it can mean anything you want and none of this is worth anything and there is no point in studying it or dna test or even opening a damned history book ever. It's either pure ideology or pure subhuman intellect or some combination of both.


I mean, the idea that R1a in India results from Alexander is like pure fantasy. The only vestige of these clades of R1a in Europe are found in... you guessed it: GYPSIES

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png..

and even in them it's a minority clade...

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/10/hap.jpg

So basically, Gigolo/Duke of Windsor is the closest thing to descendent of Alexander the Great in Europe, according to your theory. (no offense to him of course)

Indo Iranians were r1a. Indo Iranians dominated almost the entire steppe. Alxendaner's people settled there, from the north. You know, where the steppe is.

And no it doesn't matter much what the DNA is today. Pointing out slav DNA just shows what an obsessed loser you are because you can't stand even the hint someone is accusing greeks of once being white.

Toa reasonable person the fact it's in the agean says it has a long history in balkans. Of course that rules out turko-dwarf hominids.

[Unome]

I said the location of a subclade can change.

What happens when a massive army conquers, travels, and explores through several countries over decades? What do the males do? Do they have sex with the locals? Do these begotten sons hold the genetic marker of the invaders? Yes they do…

Also ethnicity/race should not be confused with Y-haplogroup. If a bastard was left in India, who then interbred only with native East Indians for two thousand subsequent years then the subclade will appear indigenous over time even though its identifying marker is not indigenous! This is common sense.

If you're an outsider breeding with foreign women, in a foreign country, then the descendants will begin to resemble the native population over time. This process is prevented by small clusters of males who interbreed with females of their own ethnicity/race, hence the Persian Iranian r1a stock. Notice how you are focused on India, but not Iran? This demonstrates your own agenda, not anybody else. You aren't thinking broadly enough.

[Scholarios]

Indo Iranians were r1a. Indo Iranians dominated almost the entire steppe. Alxendaner's people settled there, from the north. You know, where the steppe is.

And no it doesn't matter much what the DNA is today. Pointing out slav DNA just shows what an obsessed loser you are because you can't stand even the hint someone is accusing greeks of once being white.

Toa reasonable person the fact it's in the agean says it has a long history in balkans. Of course that rules out turko-dwarf hominids.

Dude, you know so little about anything here it really isn't worth it. Like a half a dozen people have said the same thing, yet you keep making this about some bullshit fake Gomer Pyle American ideology of "whiteness". News for you: I don't give a fuck about your modern identity.

You've gone so far off the deep end that you are actually defending the Greek continuity to save your weak ass hypothesis that not a single genetics paper agrees with or even dares assert (they'd be laughed out of academia). Furthermore, you are even basically claiming a gypsy haplogroup that is no more than 5% in any part of europe is result of ancient macedonians or even scythians!!! CLASSIC


and just a reminder of the failure of the american education system again:



A. Slav Invasions never happened. (historical chronicles, toponyms say otherwise)
B. There is no J2 in Crete (its around 30% in Crete and radiates from there)
C. North India has only 5% R1a (it has up to 40%)
D. No differentiation between I and R1a clades (different clades are associated with different historical and prehistoric movements)
E. j2 in Sicily from Arabs(studies show a differentiation between a north african derived portion of the island (6% at most) and a Greek portion (up to 30%)
F. Greek Macedonia has no or little genetic continuity, though it is more than 40% R1a and I clades, which according to you are the native "white" clades to the region. (makes my head spin three times and I pass out from the moron fumes!)
G. What else?



You told me that the undocumented fantasy invasion of slavs jumped off their horses and built viking ships and colonized the whole agean motherfucker, now you are talking about an agenda

Dumbshit, read a book. Slavs were foot soldiers. And here is all the documentation you need about the Slavs in the Aegean (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=TIkABAAAQBAJ&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=aegean+islands+slavs&source=bl&ots=qGcHv2jbpW&sig=Dmb9BohD9CiMaaC1vcDisJe_ufg&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=pcxJVfT6D4azmwWQn4HAAg&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=aegean%20islands%20slavs&f=false):



and here (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=XoxHdcNYhiMC&pg=PP26&lpg=PP26&dq=aegean+islands+slavs&source=bl&ots=f9F8WnNL9l&sig=lDQInSemg2HGc6BPziSiwkg8GjU&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=pcxJVfT6D4azmwWQn4HAAg&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=aegean%20islands%20slavs&f=false) also Another (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=2Wc-DWRzoeIC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=aegean+islands+slavs&source=bl&ots=44IniFtvO6&sig=EnZMbo0W7cGNkMfA1ytRs_wD3aQ&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=j81JVcGDGLKmAWmiYHAAw&ved=0CF4Q6AEwDTgU#v=onepage&q=aegean%20islands%20slavs&f=false)

[Scholarios]

I said the location of a subclade can change.

What happens when a massive army conquers, travels, and explores through several countries over decades? What do the males do? Do they have sex with the locals? Do these begotten sons hold the genetic marker of the invaders? Yes they do…

Also ethnicity/race should not be confused with Y-haplogroup. If a bastard was left in India, who then interbred only with native East Indians for two thousand subsequent years then the subclade will appear indigenous over time even though its identifying marker is not indigenous! This is common sense.

If you're an outsider breeding with foreign women, in a foreign country, then the descendants will begin to resemble the native population over time. This process is prevented by small clusters of males who interbreed with females of their own ethnicity/race, hence the Persian Iranian r1a stock. Notice how you are focused on India, but not Iran? This demonstrates your own agenda, not anybody else. You aren't thinking broadly enough.


ha so basically its COMPLETELY GONE FROM EUROPE except in GYPSIES.


and yet this is a WHITE CLADE ASSOCIATED WITH WHITENESS.

http://www.troll.me/images/trololo/well-that-makes-sense.jpg