View Full Version : Finnish thinktank sees Estonia as a model information society
Finnish thinktank sees Estonia as a model information society (http://balticbusinessnews.com/article/2010/06/25/Finnish_thinktank_sees_Estonia_as_a_model_informat ion_society)
The Committee for the Future of the Finnish Federation of Enterprises says that Finland has lost its leadership position as an information society.
The Committee held up the Estonian model for the development of an information society as a good example for Finland to adopt. In Estonia, identification cards are used for electronic transactions and authentication, and are used by more than 80 percent of the population. Electronic voting is also possible in Estonia.
The Committee noted that the Finnish public sector in particular had lost the most ground against other countries.
Finland was recently ranked midway in a global survey of information societies.
The Future Committee is also calling on government to introduce measures toaccelerate Finland’s development as an information society.
It has been common knowledge for years now, that Estonia has surpassed even the other Nordic countries in the IT-sphere. Thus, Estonia is the most advanced information society in the world.
Eldritch
07-02-2010, 11:11 PM
http://yle.fi/ecepic/archive/00105/S_hk_inen___nesyts__105521b.jpg
The Future Committee holds up Estonia as a model information society. Electronic voting is possible in Estonia.
The Committee for the Future of the Finnish Federation of Enterprises says that Finland has lost its leadership position as an information society.
The disclosure was made in the board’s operational report, and noted that the Finnish public sector in particular had lost the most ground against other countries.
Finland was recently ranked midway in a global survey of information societies.
The Committee held up the Estonian model for the development of an information society as a good example for Finland to adopt. In Estonia, identification cards are used for electronic transactions and authentication, and are used by more than 80 percent of the population. Electronic voting is also possible in Estonia.
The Future Committee is also calling on government to introduce measures to accelerate Finland’s development as an information society.
*** *** ***
The only development the present government is willing to accelerate is the one turning us into a corrupt, multiracial banana republic, which all educated and talented youngsters will flee at first opportunity, unfortunately. We'll get rid of them next year, but the damage they've done cannot be undone even in a dozen generations -- most likely never.
Good going for Estonia, though. Although you might want to re-think that electronic voting bizniz.
The Ripper
07-02-2010, 11:22 PM
The person who founded that "committee" is Eero Paloheimo, one of the few Greens I can respect (is he still active in the party? Guess/hope not). But yeah, these committees are staffed by people with internationalist agendas that aren't meant to benefit Finland, but make Finland benefit someone else. :coffee:
As for Estonia being an information society, good for you, I guess?
nisse
07-03-2010, 12:42 AM
I didn't really notice that any Nordic countries are any more "electonic" than Canada.
Good going for Estonia, though. Although you might want to re-think that electronic voting bizniz.
What's wrong with electronic voting? Most people I know vote electronically with their computer.
I didn't really notice that any Nordic countries are any more "electonic" than Canada.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=225050&postcount=1
The government of Canada should ensure all Canadians have access to “basic and essential digital services” such as broadband Internet, a Senate committee has concluded.
The government should use proceeds from the sale of wireless licences to pay for broadband Internet in rural and remote locations across the country, the standing Senate committee on transport and communications said in a report tabled Wednesday.
“There’s a disproportion between what the government collects and what they spend on broadband,” said Dennis Dawson, chair of the committee. “There has to be a better way.”
The transition from analog to digital TV will free up valuable wireless spectrum in the next two years. The last government auction, which sold off less valuable spectrum, put $4.25-billion in government coffers. But the government’s broadband Internet stimulus fund to extend service to remote areas was only $225-million.
Michael Hennessy, Telus Corp.’s senior vice-president for government and regulatory affairs, has long argued that the government lacks the funds to properly roll broadband across the whole country. “There’s a ton of things going on in the marketplace that are moving faster than what the government’s doing,” he said. “We’re doing what we do best in Canada: talk.”
The senators originally set out in March, 2009, to study Canada’s wireless sector, but broadened its mandate to “the broader focus on a digital society.”
The panel said Canada should follow the lead of Estonia, which implemented a digital strategy a dozen years before Canada began consultations on the topic. “During this twelve year period, Estonia introduced paperless cabinet meetings, e-voting, digital IDs, online and secure citizen access to government files,” the report noted, adding that 97 per cent of Estonians now file their tax returns on-line.
The committee’s main recommendation focuses on the breadth, rather than top-end quality, of Internet access in Canada.
“The government should not focus on super-fast broadband speeds or on certain advanced technologies (such as fibre optics). To do so is expensive, can overlap private-sector investment and can widen digital divides,” the report states.
“Instead, the government should determine the broadband speed required to access basic digital services (health, education or other online services, whether provided by the public or private sector), and focus government policy on bringing this broadband speed to all Canadians.
“Canada is a vast, sparsely populated country, with extremes in climate and terrain. But Canada's geography is a challenge, not an excuse.”
Eldritch
07-03-2010, 12:12 PM
What's wrong with electronic voting? Most people I know vote electronically with their computer.
It's too easy (and tempting) to rig, if the results are just a few dozen/hundred/thousand/whatever short of the "desired" result. Also it's way too easy to erase the evidence once it's done.
esaima
07-03-2010, 06:13 PM
Well, I think all these e-things are good but we should not fetish them.
E-banking is ok but e-voting...I agree with Eldritch.
Besides, there is a big gap between generations if we talk about e-skills.
Murphy
07-03-2010, 06:44 PM
I get a feeling of a farmer giving an over-enthusiastic dog a treat..
Besides, there is a big gap between generations if we talk about e-skills.
XXth cen Estonian:
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/images/psnt-m.gif
XXI cen Estonian:
http://www.blogcdn.com/jobs.aol.com/articles/media/2009/04/1data-entry-clerk.jpg
:D
It's too easy (and tempting) to rig, if the results are just a few dozen/hundred/thousand/whatever short of the "desired" result. Also it's way too easy to erase the evidence once it's done.
It's not easy (and tempting) to rig. It's not possible to rig the system, at least that's what I heard from top IT-specialists who I know.
"You crossed the line this time"? Don't get on my nerves spamming my CP with bullshit neg reps, Poohya. Or you will be in real trouble.
"You crossed the line this time"? Don't get on my nerves spamming my CP with bullshit neg reps, Poohya. Or you will be in real trouble.
Don't be a Polish untermenschen and stop trolling quality threads.
Don't be a Slavic untermenschen and stop trolling quality threads.
I'm giving you a fair warning, you back-stabbing rascal. It was not me who mentioned the generation gap.
I'm giving you a fair warning, you back-stabbing rascal. It was not me who mentioned the generation gap.
You posted a picture of an Asian and claimed that the creature was a XXIth century Estonian. You have a habit of calling us Mongols or Asians, it can be funny but I'm not in the mood today.
You posted a picture of an Asian and claimed that the creature was a XXIth century Estonian.
Wasn't it? Looks similar to me... :rolleyes:
Wasn't it? Looks similar to me... :rolleyes:
Don't confuse Estonians with Russians... Even the XXth century "Estonian" you posted is Slavic.
Don't confuse Estonians with Russians... Even the XXth century "Estonian" you posted is Slavic.
How do you know? You've asked him?
Pallantides
07-03-2010, 08:08 PM
You posted a picture of an Asian and claimed that the creature was a XXIth century Estonian. You have a habit of calling us Mongols or Asians, it can be funny but I'm not in the mood today.
Creature?
Creature?
Yes. In Estonian this is the term to describe other (non-Estonian) human beings.
How do you know? You've asked him?
I watched the picture URL.
Creature?
She's Asian.
I watched the picture URL.
LOL! Here's one smart Estonian. Who'd have expected!
LOL! Here's one smart Estonian. Who'd have expected!
"Smart" and "Estonian" are synonyms ;)
Pallantides
07-03-2010, 08:28 PM
She's Asian.
Yes I can see that...
but why is she a creature?
Yes I can see that...
but why is she a creature?
I was trying to be funny. She is a human being, there I said it.
Pallantides
07-03-2010, 08:44 PM
One of my uncles is married to a Chinese woman...
She is a very nice person though.
One of my uncles is married to a Chinese woman...
She is a very nice person though.
I know what you mean. Russians in general are the opposite of nice, but some of my relatives are married to Russians and they're nice people.
I know what you mean. Russians in general are the opposite of nice, but some of my relatives are married to Russians and they're nice people.
I knew you got some Russians in your family :D
I knew you got some Russians in your family :D
From a preservationist viewpoint, it's the opposite of funny. The blonde genes have been wiped out.
Come on. They are not Pygmies, many of them must be heterozygotes.
Come on. They are not Pygmies, many of them must be heterozygotes.
One of the Russians is black haired and the other has dark brunette hair(both of her parents have brunette hair).
Eldritch
07-03-2010, 09:05 PM
The state of Estonia's information society, anyone?
nisse
07-03-2010, 10:33 PM
Besides, there is a big gap between generations if we talk about e-skills.
That's a very valid point, and I think for that reason the "paper" system should be in place for a long time to come in parallel with anything electronic. But at the same time we have to look to the "future", which is e-everything.
I think voting should still be done in person, mostly because of the symbolic importance of it...but electronic systems probably get much better voter turnouts :)
esaima
07-03-2010, 10:42 PM
That's a very valid point, and I think for that reason the "paper" system should be in place for a long time to come in parallel with anything electronic.
Indeed.Large majority of people older than 65 y simply can not turn on a computer...
Well, I think all these e-things are good but we should not fetish them.
E-banking is ok but e-voting...I agree with Eldritch.
Besides, there is a big gap between generations if we talk about e-skills.
That's a very valid point, and I think for that reason the "paper" system should be in place for a long time to come in parallel with anything electronic. But at the same time we have to look to the "future", which is e-everything.
I think voting should still be done in person, mostly because of the symbolic importance of it...but electronic systems probably get much better voter turnouts :)
Indeed.Large majority of people older than 65 y simply can not turn on a computer...
Old people are capable of using computers... Everyone saying otherwise are underestimating them.
I have a grandmother who is over 70 years old and she has a computer with internet at her house in the middle of a forest. She is slightly disabled and doesn't own a car anymore. Thus she is very thankful for the e-voting and e-banking systems.
Praamžius
07-04-2010, 09:24 AM
Old people are capable of using computers... Everyone saying otherwise are underestimating them.
I have a grandmother who is over 70 years old and she has a computer with internet at her house in the middle of a forest. She is slightly disabled and doesn't own a car anymore. Thus she is very thankful for the e-voting and e-banking systems.
You must be proud your grandmother is unique , but most of old people are too conservative and hardly adapt to such innovations
RoyBatty
07-04-2010, 09:40 AM
It's not easy (and tempting) to rig. It's not possible to rig the system, at least that's what I heard from top IT-specialists who I know.
Of course it's possible to rig a system if you have control over it. It can be rigged any which way you wanted.
If ones country and society are sufficiently shielded and protected from corrupting influences and checks remain in place to guard against this then of course this will be much harder to do but Estonia has already taken steps down this slippery slope by joining the EU.
People often believe the fallacy that their countries will somehow remain independent but it doesn't work this way. EU influence, laws, corporations, cross-ownership etc creeps in and eventually everything works on a set of compromises and adjustments which suits the EU Empire as opposed to the EU province.
The UK is an example where it's already too late. The legal system has become corrupted, the government (all the major parties) have become corrupted, the same has happened to the Police and every organisation / state parastatal one can think of. These people only serve their own agendas (remaining in power, getting on the gravy train, engaging in foreign adventures) and not the interests of the country.
The best chance at remaining independent and relatively free is to go it alone, keep government as decentralised as possible and to keep "free marketeers" aka globalists and "foreign investors" out.
RoyBatty
07-04-2010, 09:45 AM
That's a very valid point, and I think for that reason the "paper" system should be in place for a long time to come in parallel with anything electronic. But at the same time we have to look to the "future", which is e-everything.
I think voting should still be done in person, mostly because of the symbolic importance of it...but electronic systems probably get much better voter turnouts :)
Electronic voting will certainly encourage higher turnouts. The problem is that there's no real way to be certain that the operators of the system are not tampering with the results.
Of course in any paper based voting system there will be a degree of rigging but imo the process is more transparent and it's easier to spot irregularities provided the polling booths are properly monitored.
You must be proud your grandmother is unique , but most of old people are too conservative and hardly adapt to such innovations
She's not that unique. It took her a week to learn the basics of using a computer.
Most old people don't need a computer, but if they want to use one, then they are totally capable of using one.
Of course it's possible to rig a system if you have control over it. It can be rigged any which way you wanted.
If ones country and society are sufficiently shielded and protected from corrupting influences and checks remain in place to guard against this then of course this will be much harder to do but Estonia has already taken steps down this slippery slope by joining the EU.
People often believe the fallacy that their countries will somehow remain independent but it doesn't work this way. EU influence, laws, corporations, cross-ownership etc creeps in and eventually everything works on a set of compromises and adjustments which suits the EU Empire as opposed to the EU province.
The UK is an example where it's already too late. The legal system has become corrupted, the government (all the major parties) have become corrupted, the same has happened to the Police and every organisation / state parastatal one can think of. These people only serve their own agendas (remaining in power, getting on the gravy train, engaging in foreign adventures) and not the interests of the country.
The best chance at remaining independent and relatively free is to go it alone, keep government as decentralised as possible and to keep "free marketeers" aka globalists and "foreign investors" out.
Not a single political party has control over the system... This is Estonia, not the UK. Estonia also has one of the lowest levels of corruption in the EU.
People who think that the e-voting system is unreliable are still living in the 20th century. Firstly you haven't read anything about the Estonian e-voting system and saying that it's corrupt and someone controls it, is quite false.
The state of Estonia's information society, anyone?
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_316/1222719436QVq6rr.jpg
She's not that unique. It took her a week to learn the basics of using a computer.
Most old people don't need a computer, but if they want to use one, then they are totally capable of using one.
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_316/1222719436QVq6rr.jpg
You use every possible chance to post random pictures, don't you?
She's not that unique. It took her a week to learn the basics of using a computer.
Most old people don't need a computer, but if they want to use one, then they are totally capable of using one.
Not a single political party has control over the system... This is Estonia, not the UK. Estonia also has one of the lowest levels of corruption in the EU.
People who think that the e-voting system is unreliable are still living in the 20th century. Firstly you haven't read anything about the Estonian e-voting system and saying that it's corrupt and someone controls it, is quite false.
Did talk to more experts... Influencing the system is completely impossible, you would have to build a completely new e-voting system from scratch if you want to influence it. The current system is safer then paper-voting or any other voting system in the world.
Eldritch
07-04-2010, 05:19 PM
People who think that the e-voting system is unreliable are still living in the 20th century. Firstly you haven't read anything about the Estonian e-voting system and saying that it's corrupt and someone controls it, is quite false.
Well, perhaps you can direct us to some materials about it? You'll have to forgive me for remaining a tad sceptical.
Influencing the system is completely impossible, you would have to build a completely new e-voting system from scratch if you want to influence it
Yep -- if you want to hack the system from the outside.
It's no coincidence that one of Finland's most high-profile proponents of e-voting is the notorious Stalinist Tuija Brax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuija_Brax), this country's Minister of Justice (!!!) -- the same person who wants to criminalise posting links to "racist" websites (guess who decides what's a racist website?) and to have "snitch" buttons on all Finnish websites, kind of like the "report post" button on the Apricity, but instead the report would go straight to the Finnish ministry of Lo ... Justice. :suspicious:
Talk about having the goat guard the cabbage patch. :rolleyes:
Well, perhaps you can direct us to some materials about it? You'll have to forgive me for remaining a tad sceptical.
There are no English materials.
Yep -- if you want to hack the system from the outside.
It's no coincidence that one of Finland's most high-profile proponents of e-voting is the notorious Stalinist Tuija Brax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuija_Brax), this country's Minister of Justice (!!!). :suspicious:
Talk about having the goat guard the cabbage patch. :rolleyes:
Influencing the system even from the inside is impossible, that was my point.
RoyBatty
07-04-2010, 05:25 PM
There are no English materials.
Influencing the system even from the inside is impossible, that was my point.
Nothing like this is impossible. Always remember this.
Having absolute faith in procedures, conventions, people and systems can be fatal. Always watch your back and trust nobody. Don't just assume that because a system is relatively secure today it will remain secure tomorrow.
Eldritch
07-04-2010, 05:26 PM
There are no English materials.
Well, Estonian ones then? I don't claim to be fluent, but I do know something. And Google translate exists.
RoyBatty
07-04-2010, 05:34 PM
Did talk to more experts... Influencing the system is completely impossible, you would have to build a completely new e-voting system from scratch if you want to influence it. The current system is safer then paper-voting or any other voting system in the world.
Barring potential technical flaws or exploits any system is only as secure as the people who administer it. People can be corrupted. It happens.
I'm not claiming that this is presently happening in Estonia. What I'm saying is that it's a possibility which cannot be discounted from ever happening 100% and with such a complex and proprietary electronic system it would be impossible for all intents and purposes to prove if fraud were committed or not.
There is a danger in accepting that such systems cannot be influenced and are untouchable because without being able to verify the authenticity of all voting transactions beyond a reasonable doubt one can never be completely sure.
Barring potential technical flaws or exploits any system is only as secure as the people who administer it. People can be corrupted. It happens.
I'm not claiming that this is presently happening in Estonia. What I'm saying is that it's a possibility which cannot be discounted from ever happening 100% and with such a complex and proprietary electronic system it would be impossible for all intents and purposes to prove if fraud were committed or not.
There is a danger in accepting that such systems cannot be influenced and are untouchable because without being able to verify the authenticity of all voting transactions beyond a reasonable doubt one can never be completely sure.
You would have to create a completely new system, even the people who administer it can't do anything, I'm saying this for the 3rd time.
There has been only 1 major problem with e-voting. One party did put up e-voting computers up in parks and "helped" people vote. That was during the Europarliament elections. The person could pick who he votes for, but was surrounded by party members.
All of you should read this:
Reports and Statistics about Internet Voting (http://vvk.ee/index.php?id=11509)
Sometimes I feel that Estonia is too advanced...
Sometimes I feel that Estonia is too advanced...
Yes. One should say she is in the forefront of civilisational progress. Some 1000 years before all other nations.
RoyBatty
07-04-2010, 06:15 PM
You would have to create a completely new system, even the people who administer it can't do anything, I'm saying this for the 3rd time.
I take your point but no matter how many times you say it, I know enough about these kinds of systems to know that when you control it, administer it and have access to it that it can be modified. Obviously not by anybody but by people with the relevant knowledge of how it works.
There is no such thing as a foolproof system. Given time, resources and access any system can be exploited.
esaima
07-04-2010, 06:18 PM
You must be proud your grandmother is unique , but most of old people are too conservative and hardly adapt to such innovations
Yes, he has an unique grandmother.An average Estonian grandmother is different.
I have tried to explain to my grandmother that the Internet-it is easy- but she even does not like to try.
Yes, he has an unique grandmother.An average Estonian grandmother is different.
I have tried to explain to my grandmother that the Internet-it is easy- but she even does not like to try.
As I said before, if an old person wants to use a computer, then he/she can learn it pretty quickly. Most old people don't need computers and lack motivation.
Pallantides
07-04-2010, 06:23 PM
My maternal grandmother own and use a computer:thumb001:
My maternal grandmother own and use a computer:thumb001:
Same here... My maternal grandmother owns and uses a computer daily. She mostly reads news :p
She recently posted something like this in the local parish webpage bulletinboard:
"Selling 6 chickens, 4 white and 2 yellow"
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