Scotch-Irish or Irish?

[Smitty]

I've read a lot about the Scotch-Irish here on TA recently. There are a number of ancestors in my tree who could be Scotch-Irish or Irish, and I thought others might have an opinion.

My 4th great grandfather, Jesse Roe, was born in Ireland, but was a Methodist minister according to a history of Muskingum County, Ohio...not your traditional Irish Catholic. He immigrated to the US about the early 1820s. I'm guessing Scotch-Irish.

His daughter-in-law (my 3rd-great grandmother), whose maiden name I believe to be Ferril, was born to an Irishman according to the 1880 census. Judging by the name, I'm guessing true Irish.

My 4th-great grandfather, John Dunivan, was born in Virginia in 1793. That's long before the bulk of the Irish immigration, but Dunivan is a very Irish name, so I'm guessing true Irish.

Last, my 4th-great grandmother, Sarah McDougal, may have been born to an Irishman as well. I can't think McDougal is Irish though, so I'm going with Scotch-Irish.

Any thoughts, genealogy buffs? And please feel free to share your own stories/experiences.

[Gooding]

You definitely have that Scotch-Irish/ Irish Celtic mix going on there.

[Smitty]

You definitely have that Scotch-Irish/ Irish Celtic mix going on there.

You think my assessment is accurate? The "Scotch-Irish" concept is a new one to me, so...

[Gooding]

You think my assessment is accurate? The "Scotch-Irish" concept is a new one to me, so...

Your assessment seems perfectly accurate to me.

[Leo Iscariot]

Scotch-Irish are the decedents of Protestant Irish folks, so it shouldn't be shocking that your ancestors had Irish surnames.

[Smitty]

Scotch-Irish are the decedents of Protestant Irish folks, so it shouldn't be shocking that your ancestors had Irish surnames.

Okay, I was under the impression they were Protestant Scots who transplanted to Ireland. Like I said, new concept for me...

[Gooding]

Okay, I was under the impression they were Protestant Scots who transplanted to Ireland. Like I said, new concept for me...

Generally, the Scotch- Irish are descended from Scottish and English settlers in Ireland and no, not a whole lot of them mingled when they were in Ireland. I see that your Irish and Scotch- Irish people were born in the United States, where such mingling might be a bit more common, especially in the urban areas.http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ulster-scots.html, http://scotsirishblog.arleneeakle.com/2013/03/14/scots-irish-were-presbyterians-by-covenant-and-by-law/

[Prisoner Of Ice]

You look very much scotch irish, and protestants mainly are not Irish Irish.

[Gooding]

You look very much scotch irish, and protestants mainly are not Irish Irish.

:thumb001: Quite right. The Scotch- Irish have an enormous Anglian component to their bloodlines, although they might have a bare majority Celtic blood, that blood comes from the Picts, the Irish Gaels, the Strathclyde Britons ( Cymry akin to the Welsh), followed by a close second of Anglian blood, then Norse, then Norman.. add the English admixture, then the blood is even more Germanic. The Irish, while they have a degree of Norse and Norman blood, have a lot more pre- Celtic and Celtic blood.http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Lowland_Scots,
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/English_people#Demography, http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Irish_people

[Weedman]

I've read a lot about the Scotch-Irish here on TA recently. There are a number of ancestors in my tree who could be Scotch-Irish or Irish, and I thought others might have an opinion.

My 4th great grandfather, Jesse Roe, was born in Ireland, but was a Methodist minister according to a history of Muskingum County, Ohio...not your traditional Irish Catholic. He immigrated to the US about the early 1820s. I'm guessing Scotch-Irish.

His daughter-in-law (my 3rd-great grandmother), whose maiden name I believe to be Ferril, was born to an Irishman according to the 1880 census. Judging by the name, I'm guessing true Irish.

My 4th-great grandfather, John Dunivan, was born in Virginia in 1793. That's long before the bulk of the Irish immigration, but Dunivan is a very Irish name, so I'm guessing true Irish.

Last, my 4th-great grandmother, Sarah McDougal, may have been born to an Irishman as well. I can't think McDougal is Irish though, so I'm going with Scotch-Irish.

Any thoughts, genealogy buffs? And please feel free to share your own stories/experiences. what you are asking for is precarious based on this info
you cant always just go by surnames alone
you need to know your family history and most of all WHERE in Ireland they came from exactly.


btw, Dunivan is SCOTTISH, it comes from South-west Scotland, which is where most Scotch-Irish came from originally. But it's also originally from Argyll/ the Isle of Bute in south-west Scotland.

It's NOT the same as Donovan and it's not native Irish at all. But there's always a chance it could be Donovan in YOUR specific case and was changed, you never know.
that's why you cant always only go by surnames alone, you need to know more about the full picture where they came from back in Ireland and their origins there.

but given the time frame 1793, in VA, it's most likely Scotch-Irish or even less likely from some Highland Scots who migrated from Cape Fear N.C. to VA
but it's most likely Scotch-Irish. But you need to know your own background to say for sure.

it can be either Scotch-Irish or Galloglass or Highland Scottish since it came from the western Isles/Argyll, but most likely its Scotch-Irish protestant in Ulster/ the North of Ireland.

here, look up Dunivan www.houseofnames.com

Farrell ,from 1880 Ireland, is Irish Catholic/native Irish. Without a doubt.
And it's mainly from, found , the west of Ireland and Leinster too.

1. find out the origin of the surname Roe in Ireland to start.

most Scotch-Irish migration to America stopped in the 1700's or 1780's

it's not common for an Ulster Scot to ony go to America as late as 1820 but there are exceptions, like the guy who wrote the song "Bonnie Blue Flag" was Ulster-Scot immigrant in 1815

that might be your cae too but it's not typical

you need to know where he came from in Ireland and if he was Catholic or Protestant at the time he left.

conversions did happen in earlier America but usually not as late as 1820

he probably was Irish Protestant but 1820 is late for Scotch-Irish settlers too, so if you know where Roe surname came from or where he came from in Ireland it will tell you for sure

you can find papers on him if he came as late as 1820.



4.MacDougall can be Scotch-Irish Protestant or Galloglass Catholic too in Ireland

there are some-a small minority Catholic Irish, even n the Irish Republic with names like McCloud, Campbell and MacDonell was a well known Galloglass Catholic name too

you need to know more about the MacDougall side to say for sure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McQuillan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Murphy

http://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Galloglass


www.houseofnames.com

this says Roe is English origin, but I guess it can be shortened form of McEnroe too (?), but either way, so probably your Methodist ancestor was a late-coming Ulster-scot

like this guy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Campbell_(clergyman)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_McCarthy

[Brianna]

You need to trace them back to Ireland whenever it's possible. I have Irish Protestants in my family tree. So far, I know that they have roots in Leinster, Munster, and Ulster. All of them are Gaelic Irish, not Scots-Irish. I have the records to prove it. IOW, don't assume things based on conventional wisdom. Treat each ancestor as an individual with his or her own story to tell. Also keep in mind that Gaelic people can be Catholic, Protestant or neither.

[Gooding]

You need to trace them back to Ireland whenever it's possible. I have Irish Protestants in my family tree. So far, I know that they have roots in Leinster, Munster, and Ulster. All of them are Gaelic Irish, not Scots-Irish. I have the records to prove it. IOW, don't assume things based on conventional wisdom. Treat each ancestor as an individual with his or her own story to tell. Also keep in mind that Gaelic people can be Catholic, Protestant or neither.

That's true, too. Mind you, you'll be able to tell the difference between an Ulster Scottish Protestant named Robertson and an Irish Gaelic Protestant named O' Neill. The trickier names are indeed those of the Gallowglasses.. Irish Catholics who were Scottish Catholic mercenaries for hire before they were absorbed by the Irish population.

[Brianna]

That's true, too. Mind you, you'll be able to tell the difference between an Ulster Scottish Protestant named Robertson and an Irish Gaelic Protestant named O' Neill. The trickier names are indeed those of the Gallowglasses.. Irish Catholics who were Scottish Catholic mercenaries for hire before they were absorbed by the Irish population.

My gallowglass ancestor converted to Protestantism. His conversion led to his expulsion from the Irish army. He then came to America. His descendants fought in the Revolutionary War. Some of them served under a Campbell!

[LightHouse89]

Are the surnames Gaellic sounding or English almost? Most northern irish folks [proddies] come from the lowlands of Scotland and Northern England. Some even came from London but they were generally aristocratic types [back in the 1600s-1700s].

[Weedman]

Some even came from London but they were generally aristocratic types [back in the 1600s-1700s].

you're talking about the Anglo-Irish

not Northern Irish ,Scots-dissenters (proddies)


one of the main reasons Scots from the North (Ulster) came to America is because they were persecuted by the Anglo-Irish (Anglicans) and were fighting with the native Irish Catholic population at times too.


unless you think Bono and U2 are proddies, LMFAO

they all have Anglo-Irish backgrounds from Dublin as well as earlier, native Irish Catholic ancestry.

I think the drummer maybe the exception and actually has mostly native Irish Catholic ancestry but they all met in a Dublin school run by the Church of Ireland (Anglican)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bono

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfe_Tone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobald_Wolfe_Tone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale



I imagine something like that is not complety unheard of in Dublin (The Pale)

[Smitty]

Generally, the Scotch- Irish are descended from Scottish and English settlers in Ireland and no, not a whole lot of them mingled when they were in Ireland. I see that your Irish and Scotch- Irish people were born in the United States, where such mingling might be a bit more common, especially in the urban areas.http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ulster-scots.html, http://scotsirishblog.arleneeakle.com/2013/03/14/scots-irish-were-presbyterians-by-covenant-and-by-law/

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Obviously, with the little information I'm going on, these people may be more mixed than they appear. I'm just trying to get a general picture, especially regarding the surnames. I find surname origins very interesting.

[Smitty]

what you are asking for is precarious based on this info
you cant always just go by surnames alone
you need to know your family history and most of all WHERE in Ireland they came from exactly.


btw, Dunivan is SCOTTISH, it comes from South-west Scotland, which is where most Scotch-Irish came from originally. But it's also originally from Argyll/ the Isle of Bute in south-west Scotland.

It's NOT the same as Donovan and it's not native Irish at all. But there's always a chance it could be Donovan in YOUR specific case and was changed, you never know.
that's why you cant always only go by surnames alone, you need to know more about the full picture where they came from back in Ireland and their origins there.

but given the time frame 1793, in VA, it's most likely Scotch-Irish or even less likely from some Highland Scots who migrated from Cape Fear N.C. to VA
but it's most likely Scotch-Irish. But you need to know your own background to say for sure.

it can be either Scotch-Irish or Galloglass or Highland Scottish since it came from the western Isles/Argyll, but most likely its Scotch-Irish protestant in Ulster/ the North of Ireland.

here, look up Dunivan www.houseofnames.com

Farrell ,from 1880 Ireland, is Irish Catholic/native Irish. Without a doubt.
And it's mainly from, found , the west of Ireland and Leinster too.

1. find out the origin of the surname Roe in Ireland to start.

most Scotch-Irish migration to America stopped in the 1700's or 1780's

it's not common for an Ulster Scot to ony go to America as late as 1820 but there are exceptions, like the guy who wrote the song "Bonnie Blue Flag" was Ulster-Scot immigrant in 1815

that might be your cae too but it's not typical

you need to know where he came from in Ireland and if he was Catholic or Protestant at the time he left.

conversions did happen in earlier America but usually not as late as 1820

he probably was Irish Protestant but 1820 is late for Scotch-Irish settlers too, so if you know where Roe surname came from or where he came from in Ireland it will tell you for sure

you can find papers on him if he came as late as 1820.



4.MacDougall can be Scotch-Irish Protestant or Galloglass Catholic too in Ireland

there are some-a small minority Catholic Irish, even n the Irish Republic with names like McCloud, Campbell and MacDonell was a well known Galloglass Catholic name too

you need to know more about the MacDougall side to say for sure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_McQuillan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Murphy

http://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Galloglass


www.houseofnames.com

this says Roe is English origin, but I guess it can be shortened form of McEnroe too (?), but either way, so probably your Methodist ancestor was a late-coming Ulster-scot

like this guy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Campbell_(clergyman)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_McCarthy

Thanks for the great info. I realize I'm going out on a limb just going by surnames. But these lines are so far back, I'm not too optimistic about tracing them any farther.

I had no clue Dunivan was Scottish. I was going by some information a distant relative included in a genealogical book on the family. She was assuming it was a variant of Donovan and therefore Irish. But since we have no evidence that it was ever changed and judging by the time frame, I think you're right that it's probably Scottish.

Again, lots of great information there, and it definitely makes me want to dig deeper into all this stuff.

[Smitty]

My gallowglass ancestor converted to Protestantism. His conversion led to his expulsion from the Irish army. He then came to America. His descendants fought in the Revolutionary War. Some of them served under a Campbell!

One good decision after another there! I like that guy. :)

[Smitty]

Are the surnames Gaellic sounding or English almost? Most northern irish folks [proddies] come from the lowlands of Scotland and Northern England. Some even came from London but they were generally aristocratic types [back in the 1600s-1700s].

I'm learning I'm woefully ignorant when it comes to judging surname origins. :)

[Brianna]

One good decision after another there! I like that guy. :)

He might not have felt that way when he was kicked out of the Irish army. He was an officer, and his family were gallowglass for generations. He likely felt that the military were petty ingrates.

[Stanley]

You need to trace them back to Ireland whenever it's possible. I have Irish Protestants in my family tree. So far, I know that they have roots in Leinster, Munster, and Ulster. All of them are Gaelic Irish, not Scots-Irish. I have the records to prove it. IOW, don't assume things based on conventional wisdom. Treat each ancestor as an individual with his or her own story to tell. Also keep in mind that Gaelic people can be Catholic, Protestant or neither.

Most Scots-Irish thing I've ever heard.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

You need to trace them back to Ireland whenever it's possible. I have Irish Protestants in my family tree. So far, I know that they have roots in Leinster, Munster, and Ulster. All of them are Gaelic Irish, not Scots-Irish.

Not this shit again. People adopt names, and the names in lowland scotland are/were largely the same. The names don't mean anything. Being protestant probably does. I really doubt anyone coming from those areas and who is protestant is ethnically Irish. Just like Grace looks ulster scot, this guy making the thread looks incredibly ulster scot.

There's no accepted immigration from ireland of any note besides scotch irish until the famine came. Most of the people who came to ireland who were NOT scotch irish or anglo irish spoke Irish when they got here. Even until the 1920s most the irish coming to ellis island were speaking Irish not english.



I have the records to prove it.


Proving the name doesn't prove anything. Hundreds of thousands of immigrants came to ireland during the plantation, many from outside of the UK completely, and those did not keep their names.



IOW, don't assume things based on conventional wisdom. Treat each ancestor as an individual with his or her own story to tell.

lol



Also keep in mind that Gaelic people can be Catholic, Protestant or neither.

They were all catholic when the war came, and from there everyone was put on slave ships for barbados, hanged, or sent to connacht. There was no conversion of irish to protestant, the few who crossed over did so through marriage.

Anyway, if you look like brunn you are probably ethnically Irish. If you look Keltid Nordid or borreby you aren't. Basically everyone in the south is scotch irish except a couple who came as slaves and a couple more as indentured servants. Less than 10k until the civil war broke out, for the entire country, if that. Compared to hundreds and hundreds of thousands of scotch irish.

And looking at your profile I see kelto-saxon LOL. Yeah, Ok. Original pure and true irish lol.

[Brianna]

Most Scots-Irish thing I've ever heard.

Livingston is looking for you.

[Brianna]

Not this shit again. People adopt names, and the names in lowland scotland are/were largely the same. The names don't mean anything. Being protestant probably does. I really doubt anyone coming from those areas and who is protestant is ethnically Irish. Just like Grace looks ulster scot, this guy making the thread looks incredibly ulster scot.

There's no accepted immigration from ireland of any note besides scotch irish until the famine came. Most of the people who came to ireland who were NOT scotch irish or anglo irish spoke Irish when they got here. Even until the 1920s most the irish coming to ellis island were speaking Irish not english.



Proving the name doesn't prove anything. Hundreds of thousands of immigrants came to ireland during the plantation, many from outside of the UK completely, and those did not keep their names.


lol



They were all catholic when the war came, and from there everyone was put on slave ships for barbados, hanged, or sent to connacht. There was no conversion of irish to protestant, the few who crossed over did so through marriage.

Anyway, if you look like brunn you are probably ethnically Irish. If you look Keltid Nordid or borreby you aren't. Basically everyone in the south is scotch irish except a couple who came as slaves and a couple more as indentured servants. Less than 10k until the civil war broke out, for the entire country, if that. Compared to hundreds and hundreds of thousands of scotch irish.

And looking at your profile I see kelto-saxon LOL. Yeah, Ok. Original pure and true irish lol.

You know nothing, POS

[Prisoner Of Ice]

You know nothing, POS

Says chick who joined a couple weeks ago :rolleyes:

Looks like we have two delusional complecteds in two days.

Google "old stock irish" and read up a couple weeks then get back to me.

You can start by reading here.

http://theapricity.com/snpa/rg-brunn.htm



Like the Dalo-Falid type, Brünns are typically tall, broad-shouldered, and large-headed, with big bones and heavy musculature. In its unmixed form the type is usually quite easily distinguished from other local varieties, such as the shorter-statured, more gracile and more leptomorphic Keltic Nordid, with which it is cohabitant.

These are newcomers, brunn are the ones with deep roots.



The modern Brünn inhabitants of western Ireland are mesocephalic to sub-brachycephalic, whereas their more easterly Cro-Magnid counterparts are typically long-headed. This is possibly due to the presence of a shorter-headed strain (such as Borreby) in the former, or to a local process of brachycephalization. The ancestral Cro-Magnid skull form was clearly dolichocranial.

The Brünn forehead is high and broad, and the face broad and mostly orthognathous. The malars are wide, the lower jaw deep and broad (yet usually not as broad as in the Dalo-Falid type), and the chin is prominent and typically clefted (the latter is foremost a male trait).

As with the other Cro-Magnid types, male Brünn facial features can be very ruggedly masculine, often with exaggeratedly pronounced browridges and deep jaws; the degree of sexual dimorphism is high, and a corresponding ruggedness is not usually observed among the females. As with Borreby women, these are typically rounder-featured and larger-breasted than the European mean.


The nose is moderately large, mesorrhine to leptorrhine, and straight in profile, with a considerable concave minority. The tip is somewhat thick, and frequently upturned. The mouth is large and the lines around the oral cavity are deeply drawn, while the lips are moderately thick and little everted. The upper lip tends characteristically towards length and convexity.

The skin, typically freckled, is very fair, and does not easily tan. The hair is brown and wavy, and often rufous (the Irish Brünn is known for its frequent red-headedness). Curly hair seems to be an Irish specialty. The eyes are light-mixed blue in the great majority of cases.




Geographical distribution:

Western Ireland - Cork and Kerry in particular - houses the only living Brünn population in the world today, and this element accounts for nearly half of the Irish racial composition on the whole.



These are the groups with the highest r1b, too, and where the Irish speakers are or anyway were. Most of the rest of Ireland is not descended from people who spoke Irish, that's just fact. And if they were not catholic the chance dives even lower.

Even before the war commentors had claimed it was a sad state to see that only one in five of the people in ulter were irish.

You can read on wikipedia about Irish immigration or any history book that covers it. They all agree there's almost no Irish in the south, and almost none in the whole country before the civil war and famine.

[Brianna]

Save it. You know nothing about my genealogy. If I want FACTS about Ireland and Irish people, I'll read Grace's old posts. If I want pseudo-scientific claptrap, bordering on bad science fiction and full of needless insults, I'll read your posts. Ta'!

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Save it. You know nothing about my genealogy. If I want FACTS about Ireland and Irish people, I'll read Grace's old posts.

You mean delusions.



If I want pseudo-scientific claptrap, bordering on bad science fiction and full of needless insults, I'll read your posts. Ta'!

You're the bitch who keeps insulting me out of the blue, even after you ask me questions.

If you think archaeology and anthropology are pseudoscience you're an even bigger idiot than I thought. I guess like grace you just ignore actual history, as well.

[Brianna]

You mean delusions.



You're the bitch who keeps insulting me out of the blue, even after you ask me questions.

If you think archaeology and anthropology are pseudoscience you're an even bigger idiot than I thought. I guess like grace you just ignore actual history, as well.

I guess that's an improvement. I'm now a "bitch" instead of a "cunt". Stay classy, little man.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I guess that's an improvement. I'm now a "bitch" instead of a "cunt". Stay classy, little man.

I treat people as they treat me. I get an extra laugh when people can't handle that. Selective memory towards your own posts I guess.

[Brianna]

I treat people as they treat me. I get an extra laugh when people can't handle that. Selective memory towards your own posts I guess.

My memory is just fine. I remember that you insult people for no reason. All of your thumbs-down, from other people, show that I'm not the one with amnesia.