Maradona loses it

[Hrolf Kraki]

Immediately after Argentina's 4-0 quarterfinal loss to Germany on Saturday, Maradona was understandably upset. And according to Argentina's Diarios y Noticias, he let a group of German fans know it. A translation of their report:

Argentina national team coach Diego Maradona had an altercation with German fans after the end of the match that marked the elimination of said team from the 2010 South Africa World Cup.

Apparently upset over post game celebrations by fans located behind the Argentinean bench, Maradona approached and scolded them, until Dalma, one of his daughters, entered the field and contained him.

It's a shame the man who has entertained us all over the last few weeks with his exuberance and delightful antics had to get involved in something like this. He would go on to say that this loss was "the most disappointing moment in my life" which shows just how devastated he must have been as he walked off the pitch and saw German fans in red and yellow wigs partying like it's Oktoberfest in July right behind him. A sad end for the most interesting man of the tournament. Or anywhere else.

Maradona all pissed off:
http://i46.tinypic.com/530f44.jpg


Possible explanation:
http://i46.tinypic.com/21c5wz7.jpg





http://g.sports.yahoo.com/soccer/world-cup/blog/dirty-tackle/post/Maradona-in-post-match-altercation-with-German-f?urn=sow,253409

[Loki]

These South Americans are almost always bad losers. It's a shame, it sort of negates their positives of being really good at football. But bad losers always suck in the end, I'm afraid.

[Lars]

Aren't all Spanish/Portuguese teams called something like The Fury or The Red Fury or something similar. All talent and rage but no brains nor organization. Silly creatures, like children.

[Loki]

In 2006 it was the same when Germany beat Argentina - they could not lose like men (as the proud English did), but instead behaved like angry little boys who had their toys taken away from them. Pathetic.

rV9aFzQeTHk

[Vasconcelos]

That's the Spanish team. @Sookie

[Ibericus]

Aren't all Spanish/Portuguese teams called something like The Fury or The Red Fury or something similar. All talent and rage but no brains nor organization. Silly creatures, like children.
Idiot, what does "spanish/portugese teams mean" ?? There is only 1 spanish team (Spain) and only 1 portuguese team. (Portugal). This thread is about Argentina, which is not spanish nor portuguese. Get your fucking facts straight

[Vasconcelos]

I guess we're all the same to some people.

[Eldritch]

There is something ultimately deeply infantile about the Latin American male, that is true. Not so much the Brazilian ones in my experience, but I've seen that a lot in men from the Spanish-speaking Latin American countries (God only knows what the ultimate cause of that may be).

Combined with an overinflated ego and a sense of entitlement, well ... let's just say that a lot of these guys have significant problems dealing with disappointments and setbacks in a dignified manner.

And as much as I've said before how much newly-found respect I have for the Uruguayan team, I wouldn't be suprised if we see more of the same on Tuesday, when the Netherlands knocks them out of the final.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Idiot, what does "spanish/portugese teams mean" ?? There is only 1 spanish team (Spain) and only 1 portuguese team. (Portugal). This thread is about Argentina, which is not spanish nor portuguese. Get your fucking facts straight

La Furia Roja.

[Tony]

Aren't all Spanish/Portuguese teams called something like The Fury or The Red Fury or something similar. All talent and rage but no brains nor organization. Silly creatures, like children.

Tradition has it that Latin Americans are too much into individual talents and fantasy but lack superior organization and don't like to defend (i.e.always attacking even when it would be useful to retreat) while Northern Europeans know only one way to score , just kick the ball long , cross and then try to hit with the head , i.e. gross players with no fantasy at all.

Southern Europeans come in the middle so they are at once both skilled , high talented and well organized.

Americans?not heard of yet.

Idiot, what does "spanish/portugese teams mean" ?? There is only 1 spanish team (Spain) and only 1 portuguese team. (Portugal). This thread is about Argentina, which is not spanish nor portuguese. Get your fucking facts straight
LOL , if I were you I'd got angry because of the accusation of being little idiot kids with no brain , instead for being mistaken for a Portoguese.

And that's actually not a mistake since / means and/or , it's not a bar (-) in whose case it would have meant she really meant an only people.

[Vasconcelos]

Tradition has it that Latin Americans are too into individual talents and fantasy but lack superior organization and don't like to defend (i.e.always attacking even when it would be useful to retreat) while Northern Europeans know only one way to score , just kick the ball long , cross and then try to hit with the head , i.e. gross players with no fantasy at all.

Southern Europeans come in the middle so they are at once both skilled , high talented and well organized.

Americans?not heard of yet.

And then there's Germany, who always ends up winning. :confused:

[RoyBatty]

It's just a cultural thing, no big deal.

For example, Latinos, Arabs, Africans and inhabitants of the Caucasus and the Balkans tend to be more emotional and expressive. By contrast, Northern Europeans and Japanese are much more subdued and less emotional.

Nobody likes to lose. Either side would be as devastated as the other at being beaten. Either side are known to sometimes whine about "how they were cheated" or "how it was unfair" or whatever, it's just that they'd go about it in more emotional or less emotional ways.

The World Cup is obviously about the closest thing as it gets to a religious experience for Maradona so it's hardly surprising that he'd be unable to contain his emotions completely. He understands and accepts that his side were beaten by a better team but that didn't make it any easier or less painful for him to take which is why he unleashed his frustrations on the opposition who happened to be closest to him.

Yes I know, it doesn't seem rational or logical to an average calm, calculated, collected and uninvolved Northern European person but that's the way it goes.

Imo Argentina took their loss with fairly good grace, there weren't any chaotic and out-of-control scenes worth mentioning.

[Ibericus]

LOL , if I were you I'd got angry because of the accusation of being little idiot kids with no brain , instead for being mistaken for a Portoguese.

And that's actually not a mistake since / means and/or , it's not a bar (-) in whose case it would have meant she really meant an only people.
No, im not angry because she confused us for portuguese. Thats not what she said.. But she says TEAMS, in plural, as if there were several spanish or portuguese teams. There is only one spanish team, and that is Spain. And we are one of the most organized teams. This girl is a fuckin bitch.

[poiuytrewq0987]

It's just a cultural thing, no big deal.

For example, Latinos, Arabs, Africans and inhabitants of the Caucasus and the Balkans tend to be more emotional and expressive. By contrast, Northern Europeans and Japanese are much more subdued and less emotional.

That's very stereotypical of you. Southern Europeans are no more emotional (save for Spanish women :P) than Northern Europeans. We don't rage all the time, we're actually calm, very calm in fact unless something so outrageous happens then we're pretty vocal about it (which is often better than Western Europeans who tend to take those events up their ass).


Yes I know, it doesn't seem rational or logical to an average calm, calculated, collected and uninvolved Northern European person but that's the way it goes.

...

[poiuytrewq0987]

No, im not angry because she confused us for portuguese. Thats not what she said.. But I don't understand why she says TEAMS, in plural, as if there were several spanish or portuguese teams. There is only one spanish team, and that is Spain. And we are one of the most organized teams. This girl is a fuckin bitch.

Are you sure you're not Maradona? ;)

[Ibericus]

Are you sure you're not Maradona? ;)

Why ? I dont like this mestizo midget

[Jarl]

But bad losers always suck in the end, I'm afraid.

Don't say it too loud tho... :P

[Tony]

And then there's Germany, who always ends up winning. :confused:
Germany always gets to the semis or finals and sometimes win , that's why Svanhild , who knows this , always says if in her sentences pro Germany.:wink



No, im not angry because she confused us for portuguese. Thats not what she said.. But she says TEAMS, in plural, as if there were several spanish or portuguese teams. There is only one spanish team, and that is Spain. And we are one of the most organized teams. This girl is a fuckin bitch.
I thought she just write down two random Southern countries but didn't really believed Iberia were one country.
Maybe...


That's very stereotypical of you. Southern Europeans are no more emotional (save for Spanish women :P) than Northern Europeans. We don't rage all the time, we're actually calm, very calm in fact unless something so outrageous happens then we're pretty vocal about it (which is often better than Western Europeans who tend to take those events up their ass).

Right , seriously that's more a Latin American thing.
In the 70s they almost abolished the Intercontinetal Cup between the winner of Champion's Cup and Libertadores Cup because of the mega fights that used to erupt in the south american venue , especially if that was the return game and the local team had to score goals to equalized the initial mathc.

That's why in 1980 they moved the competition to Tokyo...:coffee:

[Ibericus]

I thought she just write down two random Southern countries but didn't really believed Iberia were one country.
Maybe...
We were talking about Argentina not about Spain/Portugal..But I don't know.. she is american, so you can't expect much more than this

[Amapola]

Aren't all Spanish/Portuguese teams called something like The Fury or The Red Fury or something similar. All talent and rage but no brains nor organization. Silly creatures, like children.

http://jamillan.com/Insult.jpg

[Vasconcelos]

Germany always gets to the semis or finals and sometimes win , that's why Svanhild , who knows this , always says if in her sentences pro Germany.:wink

You didn't get it, it was a joke about Gary Lineker's famous quote.

"Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans always win."




Oh, and ignore South-Europe hating quotes, it just proves people's ignorance.

[Lars]

Idiot, what does "spanish/portugese teams mean" ?? There is only 1 spanish team (Spain) and only 1 portuguese team. (Portugal). This thread is about Argentina, which is not spanish nor portuguese. Get your fucking facts straight

I was obviously wrong about the fury thing. :thumb001:

I meant that South America is heavily influenced, both culturally and genetic, as a result of the Spanish and Portuguese colonization. That was why, I wrote Spanish and Portuguese teams because I meant Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay and somewhat Brazil (which has the highest percentage of other ethnicities) because I think those teams/people are very similar to their colonizers. :coffee: That is a common thought in my area of the world, but I guess your opinion differs?

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/files/imagecache/news/files/news/20080918_calm_sign.jpg

[Ibericus]

I was obviously wrong about the fury thing. :thumb001:

I meant that South America is heavily influenced, both culturally and genetic, as a result of the Spanish and Portuguese colonization. That was why, I wrote Spanish and Portuguese teams because I meant Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay and somewhat Brazil (which has the highest percentage of other ethnicities) because I think those teams/people are very similar their colonizers. :coffee: What is a common thought in my area of the world, but I guess your opinion differs?

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/files/imagecache/news/files/news/20080918_calm_sign.jpg

Yeah, EXTREMELY similar :rolleyes: . Fuck off

[RoyBatty]

That's very stereotypical of you. Southern Europeans are no more emotional (save for Spanish women :P) than Northern Europeans. We don't rage all the time, we're actually calm, very calm in fact unless something so outrageous happens then we're pretty vocal about it (which is often better than Western Europeans who tend to take those events up their ass).
...

I'm not claiming Southern Euros rage all the time and it's not stereotypical of "the way I think about Southern Euros" although I do stand by what I wrote. In any case, I'm more Southern (not to mention African) than pretty much everybody else on this forum. :D

That little trivia came from business psychology courses I did which are designed to train Company Employees how to cope with business partners and customers from different geographical regions and cultural backgrounds in order to facilitate smoother relations, reduce the potential for conflict and to give the employee an advantage when it came to dealing with people.

I don't necessarily believe everything I'm taught or believe everything I read but I've not come across compelling evidence which refutes what I was taught in this part of the course.

As far as I'm concerned it's FACT that Northern Europeans, Finns and Japanese are regarded to have "cooler" and more reserved personalities than Southern Europeans. It doesn't mean that ALL Northern Euros are "colder" and ALL Southern Euros are more "temperamental" but on average most fit with these somewhat stereotypical descriptions.

Even though one should remain sceptical of stereotypes there are often a grain of truth to them.

[Jarl]

As far as I'm concerned it's FACT that Northern Europeans, Finns and Japanese

Are you trying to reveal some steady gradient here?

[Vasconcelos]

As in claiming Finns are a mix of Japs and Nordics? xD

no offense, ofc

[Sahson]

Sookie thank you for some mild entertainment, however spanish speaking countries are completely different to Spain. Spain is more civilized then any latin americas

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by RoyBatty
Even though one should remain sceptical of stereotypes there are often a grain of truth to them.

I think it can depend on the era and the social mores. In the 18th century English gentlemen were expected to display emotion and to cry at any display of emotional content (particularly the arts). It wasn’t until the beginning of the Victorian period that the stiff upper lip came to the fore, in direct contest with excessive emotional display and a sense of false modesty and decorum (of course the emotional outbursts of an 18th century aristocrat to a poem were also false by and large).

Today we are going back the other way, emotional displays are, once again, tolerated. Temperamentally I’m unemotional, I don’t like and cannot handle excessive emotion (particularly in men), I’m not sure it is a cultural thing my brother is the opposite cries like a child.

[Agrippa]

It's a shame the man who has entertained us all over the last few weeks with his exuberance and delightful antics had to get involved in something like this.

His reaction was entertaining too and nobody got harmed, so... :)

After all, nobody likes to lose and get mocked afterwards, probably some fans were not controlled neither - this was not just a loss, it was a horrible defeat and shame for the trainer, so.

People often expect from prominent individuals something which they themselves never practise...

And yes, certain people are more prone to stronger reactions, because they are not being upraised in a Protestant influenced, socially disciplined environment in which emotions and feelings are suppressed as much.

This has good and bad aspects, like clans and strictly patriarchal societies too. It's not just "black & white" and I think, the ideal would be often somewhere in the middle, moderation without neglection and the possible use of strong feelings if it can be advantrageous.

But right now I have a hard time thinking about which people come closest to a moderate expression which would be ideal...

His daughter looks nice - wondered how his daughters look, because one can just hope they don't go after the father with their appearance :D

[Amapola]

Sookie thank you for some mild entertainment, however spanish speaking countries are completely different to Spain. Spain is more civilized then any latin americas

I honestly think that the problem for countries like Argentina and Brasil is that they think of football as something else than a sport/game. They see it as almost one of the most important national pride, and many emotions actually depend on it. :(

[Vasconcelos]

Massive rage on Brasil as the aircraft carrying their national team landed :laugh:

[Eldritch]

Spain is more civilized then any latin americas

The three states that comprise the Southern region of the Brazilian federation can easily rival, and in many cases surpass, almost any European country on just about any level: stability, living standards, industry, etc. In many cases in ethnic integrity as well (plus: no j00z ;)).

I've seriously considered relocating to Santa Catarina's capital Florianópolis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florian%C3%B3polis) in the past.

[Murphy]

I love how the Europeans here reject their own nation's team as true representatives of their people for whatever reason.. yet seem perfectly willing to accept another's team as true representatives of their people.

Idiots.

[Lars]

I love how the Europeans here reject their own nation's team as true representatives of their people for whatever reason.. yet seem perfectly willing to accept another's team as true representatives of their people.

Idiots.

Oh the irony. I presume you are a Celt, yet have accepted a Semitic religion and are happily ruled by the head of state from a different country.

[Murphy]

I presume you are a Celt

Nope.


yet have accepted a Semitic religion

I have accepted the religion of my father, my grandfather, my great-grandfather, my great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather and so on.

As far as I know they were all Europeans..


and are happily ruled by the head of state from a different country.

Your ignorance in regards to the Catholic Church is astounding.

[Amapola]

Your ignorance in regards to the Catholic Church is astounding.

..and too predictable. :D

[Lars]

The pope is the leader of the Catholic Church and head of state of Vatican City is he not?

[Tony]

I love how the Europeans here reject their own nation's team as true representatives of their people for whatever reason.. yet seem perfectly willing to accept another's team as true representatives of their people.

Idiots.
It's more idiot to support a team made up of immigrants , mulattoes and naturalized people.



Nope.



I have accepted the religion of my father, my grandfather, my great-grandfather, my great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather and so on.

As far as I know they were all Europeans..

And so on no , since there must have been a great great+++ect grandpa of yours that were born earlier than Christ and who whorshipped someone else.

[Murphy]

The pope is the leader of the Catholic Church and head of state of Vatican City is he not?

Yes, he is. But I don't think you quite understand Catholic teaching. Especially on the matter of the Catholic Principle of Subsidiarity for example nor even the very nature of the Church.

You would no doubt say that if abortion was in the "best interests" of my nation then I should support abortion regardless of what the Pope said because your mind has been perverted by society. I have no time for crass materialism which is exactly what your nation-worship is. You are an atheist who worships nation as a god you fool.

I also noticed you only took up this part of my argument because it was the perceived weakest point. Perhaps you'll give up with labeling the Christian faith as "foreign" then?

[Sol Invictus]

I thought this said Madonna at first..

[Murphy]

And so on no , since there must have been a great great+++ect grandpa of yours that were born earlier than Christ and who whorshipped someone else.

Of course I have pagan ancestors from long ago.. who saw the truth of Christ and converted.

But let me ask you.. what real connection do I have with the neolithic farmers who migrated up the Atlantic coast that I am no doubt related to? I cannot point to a direct blood-lineage, I only have vague assurances that my blood as a whole came from them. But what have they really done to effect my life, my views? They haven't. They're distantly connected to me.

But it was my father who did shape me, my grandfather, my great-grandfather &c. And they were Christians. My heritage, my tradition, my society, is Christian. Europe is Christian. Reject that and you reject Europe.

[Loki]

Europe is was Christian.

^ Fixed

[Murphy]

^ Fixed

The Apricity Forum: Cultural and & Ethnic European Preservation.

Then I must assume Loki that the Apricity's goal is the preservation of Christian Europe? After all, Europe's culture is shaped by Christianity whether by rejection or acceptance and the vast majority of our ethnic identities are products of Christianity as well.

[Vasconcelos]

Culturally, we're certainly Judeo-Christian.

[Tony]

Of course I have pagan ancestors from long ago.. who saw the truth of Christ and converted.

But let me ask you.. what real connection do I have with the neolithic farmers who migrated up the Atlantic coast that I am no doubt related to? I cannot point to a direct blood-lineage, I only have vague assurances that my blood as a whole came from them. But what have they really done to effect my life, my views? They haven't. They're distantly connected to me.

But it was my father who did shape me, my grandfather, my great-grandfather &c. And they were Christians. My heritage, my tradition, my society, is Christian. Europe is Christian. Reject that and you reject Europe.

Europe has a polimorphic cultural heritage of wich Christianity is only a part , thou the major one and the most recent one.
But there also the Classical tradition (the Greco-Roman) the Celtic , the Illuministic and many others as you knoe...
and all these traditions are kept bonded by only racial affinity.

Catholicism can be believed or rejected , DNA not.
You have much more in common with an atheist from say Glashow than with a Congolese catholic dude.

[Murphy]

But there also the Classical tradition (the Greco-Roman)

Preserved by the Catholic Church after the fall of the Roman Empire.


the Celtic

Hardly exists but even then Christianised.


the Illuministic

What, sorry?


You have much more in common with an atheist from say Glashow than with a Congolese catholic dude.

I have more in common in a sense with the atheist from Glasgow yes.. but I have something much deeper with the Congolese Catholic.. I have citizenship with him in the Kingdom of Heaven purchased for me by the Blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Ask yourself. In the end, my relationship with the atheist, assuming he does not convert, will end upon his death. My relationship with the Congolese Catholic, assuming we both make it to Heaven, will last an eternity.

Who do you think I will call brother in the end?

[Vasconcelos]

The point is that our societies were developed into the modern age under strong Christian influence, Congo has not.

[Murphy]

The point is that our societies were developed into the modern age under strong Christian influence, Congo has not.

And does the Congo not deserve a chance to be shaped by Christianity? The gospel is not for a select few, Christianity is not an ethnocentric religion.

[Tony]

Preserved by the Catholic Church after the fall of the Roman Empire.
Sometimes preserved , others distorted (to expose their supposed fallacy to the believers) , other openly distroyed.


What, sorry?

Voltaire?free thought?separation between state and church?...:coffee:


My relationship with the Congolese Catholic, assuming we both make it to Heaven, will last an eternity.

Gosh that's a real curse :rolleyes:

btw...

assuming we both make it to Heaven
that's the point , it doesn' make sense to me to believe in something you won't never have any proof of.

[Vasconcelos]

Like you said, your closest ancestors were all Christian, the Congolese were not, therefore they do not have - in their current society - strong christian values common to all Western nations, including South America.
It's not that they cannot have it in the future, they just don't have it now because their society developed with different beliefs..Europe has been strongly Christian - some regions sooner than others - for nearly 1700/1600 years.

[Loki]

The Apricity Forum: Cultural and & Ethnic European Preservation.

Then I must assume Loki that the Apricity's goal is the preservation of Christian Europe? After all, Europe's culture is shaped by Christianity whether by rejection or acceptance and the vast majority of our ethnic identities are products of Christianity as well.

Apricity cannot change the course of any aspect of Europe. As a forum community we can only observe and share ideas.

[Murphy]

Sometimes preserved , others distorted (to expose their supposed fallacy to the believers) , other openly distroyed.

Such as? The Church preserved everything that was worth being preserved. Anything that died died because it was apart of the very corruption that crippled Rome in the first place.


Voltaire?free thought?separation between state and church?...:coffee:

Aah. I apologise, I simply did not understand your use of "Illuministic". Well.. that's funny. You celebrate the very root cause of all of Europe's modern problems :D! Congratulations!


Gosh that's a real curse :rolleyes:

:coffee:!


btw...

that's the point , it doesn' make sense to me to believe in something you won't never have any proof of.

Ooh, you will be kicking your self at Armageddon :D!

[Murphy]

Like you said, your closest ancestors were all Christian, the Congolese were not, therefore they do not have - in their current society - strong christian values common to all Western nations, including South America.
It's not that they cannot have it in the future, they just don't have it now because their society developed with different beliefs..Europe has been strongly Christian - some regions sooner than others - for nearly 1700/1600 years.

I am sorry.. but what is your point :confused:!

[Wyn]

The Apricity Forum: Cultural and & Ethnic European Preservation.

Then I must assume Loki that the Apricity's goal is the preservation of Christian Europe? After all, Europe's culture is shaped by Christianity whether by rejection or acceptance and the vast majority of our ethnic identities are products of Christianity as well.

Correct. Europe is Christian whether "pagans"/"heathens" like it or not. All the pretending to believe in Odin and Thor will not change Christianity's influence on European culture or how it shaped the European peoples/nations psychologically.

Romantic nonsense about "gods" that ceased to be worshiped over a millennium ago will get Europe nowhere. To preserve Europe is to preserve the traditional faith of Europe. And that is not paganism.

It is good for a laugh though. People should remember that the historical pagans really did not even leave that much behind. Their exact beliefs and practices are not known. Besides anything else, "believing" in an incomplete religion that even the most educated scholar on the subject would not fully understand is utterly ridiculous.

[Loki]

To preserve Europe is to preserve the traditional faith of Europe

I'm afraid it's not that simple. There is no way that I, for example, could have faith again in the Christian god. Knowledge has increased and many people now realise that religion is an outdated mechanism that is bearing increasingly little relevance to modern life.

If you're talking about Christian values, then I'm more inclined to go along with it. Because evolved Christian values are essentially European in character, it seems, and bear the mark of civilization. No wonder the new Tory Government is promoting it (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/184834/Christian-values-will-be-at-the-heart-of-government) again.

[Vasconcelos]

I am sorry.. but what is your point :confused:!

I was actually agreeing with the reply you gave to Loki's "fix", from a cultural point of view that is.

[RoyBatty]

Culturally, we're certainly Judeo-Christian.

Count me out on the Judeo part :thumb001:

[Vasconcelos]

Christian values were originally based on Judeo culture beacuse...well, it's pretty obvious were Jesus preached, hence the name Judeo-Chrisitan.

[Eldritch]

Correct. Europe is Christian whether "pagans"/"heathens" like it or not. All the pretending to believe in Odin and Thor will not change Christianity's influence on European culture or how it shaped the European peoples/nations psychologically.

Romantic nonsense about "gods" that ceased to be worshiped over a millennium ago will get Europe nowhere. To preserve Europe is to preserve the traditional faith of Europe. And that is not paganism.

It is good for a laugh though. People should remember that the historical pagans really did not even leave that much behind. Their exact beliefs and practices are not known. Besides anything else, "believing" in an incomplete religion that even the most educated scholar on the subject would not fully understand is utterly ridiculous.

I find people who mock the religious and spiritual convictions of others disagreeable in the extreme. And while it is true that Christianity has been a major influence in European history, progress of intellectual, scientific and spiritual kind typically has taken place despite the church, not because of it. In that sense contemporary heathens (among whose number I myself am not -- I have no religious sensibilities of any kind) could be argued to be more "European" than those who "believe" in Middle Eastern genital religions simply because they happened to be born into them -- since they are, as far as I understand it, about individuality over mindless conformity, personal faith over empty mannerisms and rituals.

[Wyn]

I'm afraid it's not that simple. There is no way that I, for example, could have faith again in the Christian god.

Not wanting to do something and being unable to do something are different things entirely.


many people now realise that religion is an outdated mechanism

Realised? That is extremely subjective. They have disrcarded religion on the basis of their dislike of it. They have come to no realisition.


that is bearing increasingly little relevance to modern life.

I want nothing to do with modern life my friend. Modernity is absolutely disgusting. "Progressive" politics that preach the homosexualist and immigrationist agenda, materialistic cultures, self-indulgent thinking, promiscuous attitudes towards sexuality, widespread divorce, and a generation of broken-homed children. This is modern life, and you are quite right, Christianity bears little relevance to this degeneracy - which is why it has been abandoned and why it is attacked with such frequency and ferocity.

It is interesting. The decline in Christian belief in Europe coincides with the fall of it's traditional values, from whence we get the modern state of affairs. How very odd indeed.


Christian values are essentially European in character, it seems, and bear the mark of civilization.

It is European values that are Christian in character.

[Vasconcelos]

It is European values that are Christian in character.
Precisely.

[Ibericus]

European values are pre-Christian , from Ancient Greece and Rome era.

[Vasconcelos]

They are mostly Christian, no doubt about that. Besides, the late Roman Empire was Christian aswell.

[Hrolf Kraki]

They are mostly Christian, no doubt about that. Besides, the late Roman Empire was Christian aswell.

Right; when it was in decline..

[lei.talk]

...it indicates that either the man or the argument is weak - probably both”

Originally Posted by Iberia http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/jagohan/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=234325#post234325) ...Fuck off

Alana http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/jagohan/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=234320#post234320) http://jamillan.com/Insult.jpg

[Vasconcelos]

Right; when it was in decline..

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/400/index.html

It still cover most of today's Western Europe land area, and their original Judeo-Christian values tied to the Church carried on after the Emprire crumbled in 476. Afterwards conversion missons based on these same values carried on in Europe until the religion eventually dominated all of the Continent...or do you know any place in Europe who's not heavily Christian (barring certain formerly-Ottoman controled areas)?
I might not be a Christian religiously, but from a moral and cultural point of view, very little distinguishes me from a catholic Irishman when compared to an Asian or an African. (not talking about ethnicy here)

You might want to deny how Christian-influenced Europe culture and values are, but you're just trying to run away from the truth.

[Agrippa]

Culturally, we're certainly Judeo-Christian.

As much negative and probably some positive Jewish influences Christianity got when it started, European Christianity being defined by a strict distinction between Christians and Jews.

Whatever Judeo-Christians existed before, when Christianity became European, roughly when the Roman Empire shifted towards Christianity, it became European, an European religion with all its merits and failures. Before that, it was just some sort of Near Eastern Judeo-Christian sect.

What we see now, after the advent of Liberalism, Liberalcapitalism and Cultural Marxism, is that new Christian = Neo-Christian beliefs emerged which went back to Judeo-Christian ideas about the religion - in fact, it is the "De-Europeanisation" of Christianity, with very weak and more basic religious teachings which go straight against the interests of the European people and culture - even more so than the old, Europeanised Christianity.

A perfect example is the possibility to arrange racialism, nationalism, elitism, war, heroism, Antijudaism, Anti-Islamism etc. with Christianity at least to some degree or even strongy - if talking about old Christianity, but not Neo-Christians which are just Cultural Marxists with a cross and loving Jesus.

In a way, those Hippie (Neo-) Christians went back to the sick roots of what Christianity really was meant to be by the evangelists at least, something mostly dangerous for any people believing in it.

The European Christian model, with all it's faults, was at least mostly tolerable, though being far from optimal, yet it's hard to say it just destroyed better paths, if we don't if the good aspects would have made it without - though I think so, because the good aspects of European Christianiy are to a large degree un-Christian and based on older or newer cultural traditions, at least only quite a few on what Jesus and the Evangelists actually taught...

[Inese]

Idiot, what does "spanish/portugese teams mean" ?? Get your fucking facts straight

There is only one spanish team, and that is Spain. And we are one of the most organized teams. This girl is a fuckin bitch.

http://jamillan.com/Insult.jpg

Hmm you are only proving what Sookie said!! :D Southern: Rage , insults and no brains. :thumbs up

[Murphy]

Rage , insults and no brains. :thumbs up

Sounds like a certain Latvian I know :rolleyes:..

[Inese]

Sounds like a certain Latvian I know :rolleyes:..
I am very controlled after what happened last week! :rolleyes2: And you have NO REASON to play innocent!!

[Tony]

Such as?
Hipatia doesn't say anyhting to you?
the destruction of pagan temples?
the closing of the Neoplatonic Academy of Athens?
the supportin' of imperial acts that declared a lot of pagan rites as fellony?


The Church preserved everything that was worth being preserved. Anything that died died because it was apart of the very corruption that crippled Rome in the first place.
It preserved what it thought it would have been useful to claim its "righeousness" and by this retain power.
c'mon...:rolleyes:


Ooh, you will be kicking your self at Armageddon :D!
I'm all serene.:)

[Murphy]

I am very controlled after what happened last week! :rolleyes2: And you have NO REASON to play innocent!!

I'm going to pretend last week didn't happen though. And the fact is you often react with rage, insults and and no brains when someone challenges you and your views.

[Murphy]

Hipatia doesn't say anyhting to you?

A very sad incident that shouldn't have happened.. but are you going to seriously sit there and pretend that only Christians have committed atrocities?


the destruction of pagan temples?

Some were destroyed, some were preserved.


the closing of the Neoplatonic Academy of Athens?

Hardly that great a loss.


the supportin' of imperial acts that declared a lot of pagan rites as fellony?

No complaints here either, especially considering how depraved many of those rites were. But again, do not act all high-and-mighty as if the pagans were perfect beings.

[Bridie]

No, im not angry because she confused us for portuguese. Thats not what she said.. But she says TEAMS, in plural, as if there were several spanish or portuguese teams. There is only one spanish team, and that is Spain. And we are one of the most organized teams. This girl is a fuckin bitch.


We were talking about Argentina not about Spain/Portugal..But I don't know.. she is american, so you can't expect much more than this
Bloody hell Lars! You're making American women look even more idiotic than they already do!! (And that's really saying something. :p) But I'm sure you're having fun with everyone. ;)

Iberia - "Sookie" is a Danish male. Previously known as Lars.







As far as I'm concerned it's FACT that Northern Europeans, Finns and JapaneseAre you trying to reveal some steady gradient here? In all seriousness, I think there must be (a steady gradient). Being robotic and lacking feeling, empathy and emotion must be a characteristic of the "cold adapted".

It's almost as though the extreme cold has prevented our borealised friends from evolving into fully-fledged human beings.

[Ibericus]

Hmm you are only proving what Sookie said!! :D Southern: Rage , insults and no brains. :thumbs up

You and sookie are only proving what I always say : Nordicists are so fuckin dumb !! :thumb001: But you are not even Nordic, Latvian girl

[Vasconcelos]

Southern: Rage , insults and no brains. :thumbs up

rofl, you must be south american then, by your own standards :laugh:

[Svanhild]

I don't care much about Maradona's outburst. Matter of fact is that his team already flown home due to the wonderful performance of our Teutonic panzer. :wink I don't cry for you, Argentinia...

[poiuytrewq0987]

I'm going to pretend last week didn't happen though. And the fact is you often react with rage, insults and and no brains when someone challenges you and your views.

Inese reminds me of Amy Winehouse.

http://happyvalleynews.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/amy_winehouse0423081_nc.jpg

[Groenewolf]

Let's all stay calm now. Drink some nerve calming tea or something :coffee: .

And Hippaforalkus, you only trying to trow oil on the fire.

[Inese]

You and sookie are only proving what I always say : Nordicists are so fuckin dumb !! :thumb001: But you are not even Nordic, Latvian girl
I am not dumb ---- do you want to discuss with other people with your second foreign language, will you?? Do you speak a second foreign language? No? :coffee: Uuuups! Then dont attack me. I have my view and you have your view and you are the type who uses " fuck" in every second sentence!! You know, you write western european in your profile. But you are southern european! :rolleyes: And i am Nordic, i have classifications of experts like Agrippa , you understand!?? Dont annoy me and do something else like counting the leafs in a big forest! I start for you: 1, 2, 3, 4.....:lol00001:

[Praamžius]

Yay more pointless fighting between Nordicist and Southern Europeans(mostly).
It's kind a entertaining to watch , but i think this forum lacks Nordicists so the forces would be even :D

[Vasconcelos]

I am not dumb
If you're not, you don't have to say it.
This doesn't mean you are dumb, in case you didn't understand.



Do you speak a second foreign language? No? Uuuups! Then dont attack me.
What if he speaks/understands three or four? Irrelevant.



You know, you write western european in your profile. But you are southern european!
Look at a map, maybe you'll notice that the Iberian Peninsula is at the very Western tip of the Continent. So it's Western, it's correct.
Maybe you should post Easter European aswell, that's were you live and were brought up at, right?



And i am Nordic, i have classifications of experts like Agrippa , you understand!??
Even if you do look like a nordic from a physiologic point of view, it doesn't make you a real Nordic. You don't have their culture, and it's funny you are always saying you are Nordic at all time, maybe because you yourself are unsure about it and want to spam that idea until everyone else accepts and agrees that you are of a superior race (lol).
Who gives a sh*t if you have "Nordic" genes or "Inuit's" when you treat people who behave better than you like animals. Actually, by the way you talk to people, you look a Somali or Nigerian to me, full of racial hatred, lame excuses to prove you're better, while all you do is poo and trying to make people feel worse.



Dont annoy me and do something else like counting the leafs in a big forest! I start for you: 1, 2, 3, 4.....
Good to know you live on a tree.:thumb001:





Now go do somethin useful for WesternCivilization, like studying or reading a book.

[Ibericus]

I am not dumb ---- do you want to discuss with other people with your second foreign language, will you?? Do you speak a second foreign language? No? :coffee: Uuuups!
I speak 4 languages. :thumb001:


Then dont attack me. I have my view and you have your view and you are the type who uses " fuck" in every second sentence!! You know, you write western european in your profile. But you are southern european! :rolleyesThe Iberian peninsula has the most Western point of continental Europe, but I am not western european according to you, do you realize now how dumb you are ?


And i am Nordic, i have classifications of experts like Agrippa , you understand!?? Dont annoy me and do something else like counting the leafs in a big forest! I start for you: 1, 2, 3, 4.....:lol00001
I don't care if you are nordic or not, that's your problem, but Latvia is not a nordic country

[poiuytrewq0987]

I am not dumb ---- do you want to discuss with other people with your second foreign language, will you?? Do you speak a second foreign language? No? :coffee: Uuuups! Then dont attack me. I have my view and you have your view and you are the type who uses " fuck" in every second sentence!! You know, you write western european in your profile. But you are southern european! :rolleyes: And i am Nordic, i have classifications of experts like Agrippa , you understand!?? Dont annoy me and do something else like counting the leafs in a big forest! I start for you: 1, 2, 3, 4.....:lol00001:

Oh wow, really? He is attacking your dumb views, not your language skills. You are only proving what others here have been saying.

[Amapola]

Hmm you are only proving what Sookie said!! :D Southern: Rage , insults and no brains. :thumbs up

Aha... empiric discovery, lady.

:zzz

It's more than empirically proven in this forum that this who is speaking/me, antonio, Matritensis, Falkata, Maniot, Vasconcelos, Killer, Oinakos, perokolez, Ibex, Tony and the rest of Southernes have only rage, insults and no brains to offer UNLIKE you, all brightness and splendor. :)

[Agrippa]

Talking about rage, insults and the like, especially in the context of football as a sport and a game, we can observe that in many regions obviously:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16879

However, I don't think it is necessary to insult Inese in an unfair way, she didn't deserve that and all people should calm down rather...

[Falkata]

Girl, you´re from Latvia, I wouldn´t try to mock Portugal, Spain or Italy if I was from a pointless country like that :confused:

[Vasconcelos]

However, I don't think it is necessary to insult Inese in an unfair way, she didn't deserve that and all people should calm down rather...

I might be new here, but from my experience the overwhelming majority of her posts are hostile towards people from Southern Europe, so I don't think it's entirely unfair.
You know what they say...You reap what you sow.

[Ibericus]

Hmm you are only proving what Sookie said!! :D Southern: Rage , insults and no brains. :thumbs up

Aaah !, nordic people are so calm and quiet..Role models for all europeans..That's why Hooliganism started in England

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WnkdL2xIFXY/SPTedAK2kAI/AAAAAAAAAeM/zAa9NlYBWxw/s400/hooligans.jpg

http://canchalocal.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/hooligans-reuters.jpg?w=450

http://sp6.fotolog.com/photo/22/46/16/historiasdfutbol/1211584778_f.jpg

[Megrez]

I love how the Europeans here reject their own nation's team as true representatives of their people for whatever reason.. yet seem perfectly willing to accept another's team as true representatives of their people.

Idiots.

A little game:


I love how the Europeans here reject their own nation's ancient religion as true representatives of their people for whatever reason.. yet seem perfectly willing to accept another's religion as true representatives of their people.

Regard another's religion as semitic religion, e.g. Christianity.

[Beorn]

Aaah !, nordic people are so calm and quiet..Role models for all europeans..That's why Hooliganism started in England

England isn't a Nordic country.


...

You do realise that almost all nations didn't even exist at the time of this "ancient religion", but nations were forged by Christian monarchs ruling over a Christian population?

[Ibericus]

England isn't a Nordic country.
My bad, it's a southern european country :shakefist

[Lars]

Iberia: You reject Latvia as a Nordic country but accept England? rofloffle Both countries are included in Northern Europe but excluded from the Nordic countries and culture.

[Ibericus]

Iberia: You reject Latvia as a Nordic country but accept England? rofloffle Both countries are included in Northern Europe but excluded from the Nordic countries and culture.
yes, that's what I meant, northern europeans

[Bridie]

yes, that's what I meant, northern europeansWhen one speaks of "nordics" or "northern Europeans" I think it's safe to assume that they're usually speaking of Skandinavians and Finns. Maybe the Baltic nations too.

[Groenewolf]

The Iberian peninsula has the most Western point of continental Europe, but I am not western european according to you, do you realize now how dumb you are ?

I doubt that most people would include Spain into Western Europe, and that got little to do with reasons of geography. Most people when referring to Western-Europe they are talking about what is geographically NW-Europe. It is more a cultural term, then one of geography.

[Agrippa]

Fennoscandia and Denmark - probably Iceland too are usually meant.

The Baltic countries are usually considered Eastern European, but I read otherwise, which seems to be less logical though - like Central European.

The British Islands are normally under Western European...

F.e.:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png

[poiuytrewq0987]

When one speaks of "nordics" or "northern Europeans" I think it's safe to assume that they're usually speaking of Skandinavians and Finns. Maybe the Baltic nations too.

According to Inese, Northern European and Nordic are interchangeable. :coffee:

[Bridie]

According to Inese, Northern European and Nordic are interchangeable. :coffee:As far as I know, they are (interchangeable).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries

[poiuytrewq0987]

As far as I know, they are (interchangeable).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries

As far as I'm concerned - Nordic countries can also be described Northern European but non-Nordic countries can't be described as Nordic.

[Bridie]

non-Nordic countries can't be described as Nordic.:D

That sounds reasonable, yes. ;) :p

[Ibericus]

I doubt that most people would include Spain into Western Europe, and that got little to do with reasons of geography. Most people when referring to Western-Europe they are talking about what is geographically NW-Europe. It is more a cultural term, then one of geography.
We have already talked about this zillions of times. Spain has always had a western european culture, since ancient times. If you are totally ignorant about the history of Europe it's not my problem.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8518/neolith.png

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/9638/neolith2.png

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8761/bronzeq.png

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2618/bronze2.png

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8435/latebronze.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png

[Amapola]

We have already talked about this zillions of times. Spain has always had a western european culture, since ancient times. If you are totally ignorant about the history of Europe it's not my problem.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8518/neolith.png

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/9638/neolith2.png

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8761/bronzeq.png

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2618/bronze2.png

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8435/latebronze.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png

No, he's not saying we are not Westen by culture; he is saying that he thinks traditionally Spain would not get called Western by our Northern Western fellows,probably because of the Southern thing and a feeling of Anglo/Nothern/Protestant supremacy in the last two centuries. Although I think it's just a modern and subjective thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

It's obvious, just taking into consideration Spain's involvement in this part of the world since XV... actually having a big role back then, and not that big in the last two centuries

[manu]

luckily we had Illuminism and Liberalism to set us free from that bundle of superstitions called Christianism.

[Amapola]

luckily we had Illuminism and Liberalism to set us free from that bundle of superstitions called Christianism.

and to have us like we are now: loosing our identities, traditions, sense of tribe/family, values and welcoming multiculturalism, religion of materialism and spiritual void. :thumb001:

[manu]

and to have us like we are now: loosing our identities, traditions, sense of tribe/family, values and welcoming multiculturalism, religion of materialism and spiritual void. :thumb001:
Christianism, Catholicism included, is an anti-nationalistic a pro-multicultiralism religion. when the Pope discouraged the use of condoms for african people he did it with a specific purpose: increasing the number of starving and uneducated masses to invade the western world and be an easy target for assorted christian superstitions.

[Osweo]

nations were forged by Christian monarchs ruling over a Christian population?
How is that the case for England? :rolleyes:
What do you understand by 'forged'?

[Vasconcelos]

Christianism, Catholicism included, is an anti-nationalistic a pro-multicultiralism religion. when the Pope discouraged the use of condoms for african people he did it with a specific purpose: increasing the number of starving and uneducated masses to invade the western world and be an easy target for assorted christian superstitions.

Erm, I'm sure that's not what the Pope really wants when condemning the use of condoms lol. That doesn't even make sense.
The Church has always been againt sexual relationships between unmarried couples, abortion, gays, etc.. regardless of the location of the people.

[Liffrea]

I think it reasonable to suggest that the English state was formed within a Christian framework and a monarchy that used the Carolingians as their template, of course sacral kingship is indigenous to Germanic culture but the Christian religion infused into it, the Romano-Christian influence was central to political organisation on the scale required to form an English state.

However it would be absurd to claim that English national identity is intrinsically Christian, though Christianity played a major role in the evolution of that identity, it was far from being the only or even the most important influence. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of Old English literature and the scholarship surrounding Beowulf understands that Christianity in northern Europe was as much, if not more so, Germanised as the Germanic people’s were Christianised. Christianity in the north has always been a very different breed to the Mediterranean lands.

The British Isles are north-west Europe. Quite obviously, given our history, the Scandinavian impact is apparent but it would be asinine to claim England is culturally linked to the Nordic lands. It is very much Western and, in my opinion, culturally more related to France.

[Agrippa]

Southern Europe was and mostly still is an essential part of the European culture and occidental civilisation.

After all, Rome and Greece were in Southern Europe or South Eastern Europe respectively. Nothing wrong with that, because after all, the Western culture is largely Frankish in nature, but heavily influenced by antiquity and the culture of Italy - the fusion, together with Christianity, formed the occident with all its good and bad sides.

I mean nobody can even imagine the Western culture without Italy, especially in early Medieval Times Italy was far more advanced in many respects than most other European regions and the development which finally started in the Frankish Empire was also boosted by that influence obviously.

After all, an essential part of the higher Western/occidental culture are Universities.

You can really say a region really adopted the Western civilisation and higher culture when they founded their first university:

The first universities were the University of Bologna (1088), the University of Paris (c. 1150, later associated with the Sorbonne), the University of Oxford (1167), the University of Palencia (1208), the University of Cambridge (1209), the University of Salamanca (1218), the University of Montpellier (1220), the University of Padua (1222), the University of Naples Federico II (1224), the University of Toulouse (1229).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University#History

The first Universities in America are older than that in Russia...

Obviously Iberia AND Italy were integrated in what became a Western culture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operatio n

Italy was of greater importance for its formation though...

Such things are much more important for European and historical positioning than some arbitrary customs in my personal opinion. I don't know what the fuss is about...


I think it reasonable to suggest that the English state was formed within a Christian framework and a monarchy that used the Carolingians as their template, of course sacral kingship is indigenous to Germanic culture but the Christian religion infused into it, the Romano-Christian influence was central to political organisation on the scale required to form an English state.

Absolutely, just think about Alfred the Great and his fight against the pagans and Danes...

[Svanhild]

We have already talked about this zillions of times. Spain has always had a western european culture, since ancient times. If you are totally ignorant about the history of Europe it's not my problem.

No one in Germany, regardless of political orientation, thinks of Spain as a Western European country. Again I've to tell you that you're South-Western European to us and no map can change that fact. Get over it! Spain has a rather large share on the mediterranean sea and mediterranean culture. Both highlights Southern culture and lifestyle to us. You can see the African continent from the rock of Gibraltar. The Spanish towns Mellilla and Ceuta are Spanish national territory on Northern African soil. What's about the Canary Islands ahead of Africa and the Balearic Islands? Even the northernmost point of Spain lies south of the Alpes and the Alpes are the border between Northern/Central and Southern European countries and cultures.


Girl, you´re from Latvia, I wouldn´t try to mock Portugal, Spain or Italy if I was from a pointless country like that :confused:
Pardon my french, but no country in Europe is pointless. Don't be a jerk.

[Agrippa]

The Spanish towns Mellilla and Ceuta are Spanish national territory on Northern African soil. What's about the Canary Islands ahead of Africa and the Balearic Islands?

Thats a rather fallacious argument.

What have these colonies to do with the motherland, its culture and people?

Britain has Gibraltar and France French Guiana - Germany had colonies in Africa and the Pacific etc...

Otherwise I can just agree that I consider Spain simply South-Western European - and the British Isles are North-Western...

But after all, thats all a rather arbitrary question, do we have no bigger problems...

[Beorn]

How is that the case for England? :rolleyes:

Since 927 AD and King Athelstan.


What do you understand by 'forged'?'Forged' as in fought for. Created through a process of hard won battles.

[Osweo]

Since 927 AD and King Athelstan.
Tight West Saxon supremacy within England is the origin of the 'British State' that you so abhor. There was an England before 927, with an arguably more traditional and Germanic sense of unity, expressed through the Bretwaldaship.

'Forged' as in fought for. Created through a process of hard won battles.
It was already there. Athelstan just recovered bits. But not all of it, it should be said. He was content to leave a very sizeable chunk in Scotch hands. :cry2

Penda and Offa had done as much in earlier centuries. As had AEthelfrith, Oswald and Osweo. Two of the above having been of course, non-Christian.

[Amapola]

Christianism, Catholicism included, is an anti-nationalistic a .
Nationalisms that would like to fill their "nations" with immigrants as long as they speak Catalan or their language?
Nationalisms that worship Marxism and get their flags dirty with the soviet "star"?
Dictatorial nationalism of the masonic kind?
No, thanks. :rolleyes:


pro-multicultiralism religion
OH! what a coincidence, tendentious liberals of the Left and Christians defend the same thing. Probably it's the reward of a Post-Council Church that has meant to reconcile itself to the world, and accept liberal recipes. Oh, the irony!


when the Pope discouraged the use of condoms for african people he did it with a specific purpose: increasing the number of starving and uneducated masses to invade the western world and be an easy target for assorted christian superstitions.

Do I really have to reply to this? :p

[Ibericus]

No one in Germany, regardless of political orientation, thinks of Spain as a Western European country.
This doesn't change the fact that spain is a Western country


Again I've to tell you that you're South-Western European to us and no map can change that fact.
I know we are south-western european. The conversation started when that latvian girl told me to change the meta-ethniciy western-european


Get over it! Spain has a rather large share on the mediterranean sea and mediterranean culture. Both highlights Southern culture and lifestyle to us.

Iberia has as much atlantic coastline than mediterranean coastline.


You can see the African continent from the rock of Gibraltar. The Spanish towns Mellilla and Ceuta are Spanish national territory on Northern African soil. What's about the Canary Islands ahead of Africa and the Balearic Islands?
And ? The United Kingdom has caribbean territories



Even the northernmost point of Spain lies south of the Alpes and the Alpes are the border between Northern/Central and Southern European countries and cultures.
LOL, who says "Alpes are the border between Northern/Central and Southern European countries and cultures ?? Because you say so ? You can't even argue. It has to be like this because you say so.

Dumbass.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Captain Blackbeard
Since 927 AD and King Athelstan.

It’s highly debatable who was the first king of England.

Some would argue Alfred the Great (849-899) on the basis that he was the king of what remained of England after the Danish invasions. “All the English not under Danish rule submitted to Alfred” as the AS Chronicle states.

Others would argue for Edgar (959-979) who truly finalised the formation of the English state.


Originally Posted by Osweo
But not all of it, it should be said. He was content to leave a very sizeable chunk in Scotch hands.

It is lamentable that our English kin reside under the Gaelic yoke, raise the standard high and cleanse Lothian of the Scot!:D:p

Never, before this, were more men in this island slain by the sword’s edge-as books and aged sages confirm-since Angles and Saxons sailed here from the east, sought the Britons over the wide seas, since those warsmiths hammered the Welsh, and earls, eager for glory, overran the land.
Brunanburh

[Wyn]

Some would argue Alfred the Great (849-899) on the basis that he was the king of what remained of England after the Danish invasions. “All the English not under Danish rule submitted to Alfred” as the AS Chronicle states.


This isn't my discussion, but Alfred the Great was a Christian and is well venerated.

[Amapola]

No one in Germany, regardless of political orientation, thinks of Spain as a Western European country.

Let me gladly prove you wrong :embarrassed

Sometimes they do:

http://www.allgemeinbildung.ch/fach=geo/Hauptstaedte_Westeuropas_02a.htm

https://www.gps-total.de/Acer-d100::832.html

https://www.gps-total.de/TomTom-Westeuropa-Kartenmaterial::435.html

http://auto-onlineshop.ch/products_new.php?osCsid=e2e3a4eaa7e69e43f3d9f75f53 2466cd

http://www.cluburlaub-schiff.de/aida_routen.333.html

:lightbul:
However, it's totally irrlevant for the essence of Spain as Western.

[Osweo]

This isn't my discussion, but Alfred the Great was a Christian and is well venerated.

Penda wan't, an e were well mint. :thumb001:

[Agrippa]

Let me gladly prove you wrong :embarrassed

Sometimes they do:

http://www.allgemeinbildung.ch/fach=geo/Hauptstaedte_Westeuropas_02a.htm

In this case it's about "old EU Western", this has nothing to do with geography, since as you can see, Italian cities are mentioned too under "Western European cities", together with Ljubljana and all of Central Europe...

https://www.gps-total.de/Acer-d100::832.html

Again, "old EU Western"...

https://www.gps-total.de/TomTom-Westeuropa-Kartenmaterial::435.html

Again - Poland included...

http://auto-onlineshop.ch/products_new.php?osCsid=e2e3a4eaa7e69e43f3d9f75f53 2466cd

http://www.cluburlaub-schiff.de/aida_routen.333.html

So that are all just "old European" areas, roughly culturally West in the sense of early occidental, of Catholicism and Catholicism+Protestantism, or "old EU-Europe without Greece..."

Neither of this links shows something which could be relevent to the irrelevant debate we have here... :thumb001:

[Megrez]

You do realise that almost all nations didn't even exist at the time of this "ancient religion", but nations were forged by Christian monarchs ruling over a Christian population?

The concept of Nation emerged even later, in the XIX century. What existed before were reigns, ruled by the monarchs you mentioned. And in pagan times, there were tribes, whose people followed a common identity and tradition, which includes what we call today "religion", and that serves for my purpose.

Very interestingly, the ideal of Nation came along with a revival of old folkish traditions in the XIX century, often related to ancient Paganism. The opus of Richard Wagner can be an example. For the first time in centuries, there was a positive view on Paganism! The old pagans were seen as the forebearers of national identities for their rule as creators and preservers of folk and traditions, and these are the elements the nations are based upon. Nations owe little or nothing to Christianity.

Just a sole example of the relation between nationalism and revival of paganism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius#German_nationalism

[Amapola]

http://www.allgemeinbildung.ch/fach=geo/Hauptstaedte_Westeuropas_02a.htm

In this case it's about "old EU Western", this has nothing to do with geography, since as you can see, Italian cities are mentioned too under "Western European cities", together with Ljubljana and all of Central Europe...

https://www.gps-total.de/Acer-d100::832.html

Again, "old EU Western"...

https://www.gps-total.de/TomTom-Westeuropa-Kartenmaterial::435.html

Again - Poland included...

http://auto-onlineshop.ch/products_new.php?osCsid=e2e3a4eaa7e69e43f3d9f75f53 2466cd

http://www.cluburlaub-schiff.de/aida_routen.333.html

So that are all just "old European" areas, roughly culturally West in the sense of early occidental, of Catholicism and Catholicism+Protestantism, or "old EU-Europe without Greece..."

Neither of this links shows something which could be relevent to the irrelevant debate we have here... :thumb001:


"Old Western Europe"? Is there a distinctive term like that in German? how do you say that in German? and what does it mean? I am trying to find it but I can't find that in English or Spanish.

[Agrippa]

"Old Western Europe"? Is there a distinctive term like that in German? how do you say that in German? and what does it mean? I am trying to find it but I can't find that in English or Spanish.

Some historians simply speak of "Europe" (culturally-historically) or "occidental Europe" and the like if they mean Europe roughly to the Hajnal line.

You can compare with this thread:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12370

The "European special way" started in this area of "Western culture" - it's obvious if looking when the first Universities were founded and by whom. The boundary is largely the one between Catholicism and Orthodoxy - following the Schism.

[Wyn]

[...]

From the prologue to the Cursor Mundi (14th c. AD)

Of Ingeland þe nacioun [England the nation],
Es Inglis man [Englishman] þar in commun.
Þe speche þat man with mast may spede,
Mast þarwith to speke war nede.

Osweo: Admittedly, I am not completely familiar with Penda's reign and what territories it covered. Can he be considered to be a potential candidate for the first king of England in the same way that Athelstan or Alfie can?

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Megrez
The concept of Nation emerged even later, in the XIX century.

The concept of states as legally defined entities dates, roughly, to the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 but nation is as old as we have historical records; certainly there was an English identity from at least the 6th century. The English always considered themselves separate from the Welsh and Scots and it took the best part of three centuries for the Normans to be absorbed into “Englishness”.

England was a nation long before it became a unified state, and both of these concepts were formed before the 11th century.

[manu]

Nationalisms that would like to fill their "nations" with immigrants as long as they speak Catalan or their language?
Nationalisms that worship Marxism and get their flags dirty with the soviet "star"?
Dictatorial nationalism of the masonic kind?
No, thanks. :rolleyes:

are you sure you have ever read the gospels, the good samaritan tale etc.?



OH! what a coincidence, tendentious liberals of the Left and Christians defend the same thing. Probably it's the reward of a Post-Council Church that has meant to reconcile itself to the world, and accept liberal recipes. Oh, the irony!

again, are you sure you ever read carefully the gospels? I don't see many references to nationalism but I know you catholics have a very arbitrarious and incoherent way to interpret the "holy bible".




Do I really have to reply to this? :p
well, if you don't have any arguments to reply...:rolleyes:

[Osweo]

The concept of Nation emerged even later, in the XIX century.
Our comrades here have already demonstrated the fallacy of this to a great extent. I would add that our first great historian, the Venerable Bede, entitled his masterwork 'The Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation', way back in c.741 AD...

Just how does the supposedly 'modern' idea of the nation differ from his back then? Could it not be the case that this 'modernity' is a fiction, concocted by anti-national scholars to help the ideological attack on our peoples? :strokebeard:

Osweo: Admittedly, I am not completely familiar with Penda's reign and what territories it covered. Can he be considered to be a potential candidate for the first king of England in the same way that Athelstan or Alfie can?
He was a Bretwalda. He could summon troops from all the English for his 'thirty legion strong army'. Self-government remained for the vassal kingdoms - but how does this really differ from modern federal states? :wink Sure, it was primitive enough, but it got the job done, and it was based on ethnic commonality, and prestigious descent from Old Anglian kings.

Offa did a better job of all the dull organisational work, a few centuries later, sure, but that he was able to do so was partly a result of the work of the Pendas before him, who had familiarised the people with such overarching authority.

England was a nation long before it became a unified state, and both of these concepts were formed before the 11th century.
:thumb001:

[Megrez]

I still think that the idea of Nation, conceptualised, shaped and romanticized as it is today emerged in the XIX century. However, if the english had a notion for it thousand years before, that can be only good.


PS: Shouldn't we split it or something? This thread is about Maradona lol.

[Amapola]

are you sure you have ever read the gospels, the good samaritan tale etc.?



again, are you sure you ever read carefully the gospels? I don't see many references to nationalism
If you need to ask me what I have read in order to refute me, you are a waste of time.


but I know you catholics have a very arbitrarious and incoherent way to interpret the "holy bible".

Exactly, a tradition of 2000 years unlike your sparse years of atheistic existance.


well, if you don't have any arguments to reply...:rolleyes:
If you read them instead of asking for more, I would condescend to reply.

You are waste of time though :wink

[Falkata]

Pardon my french, but no country in Europe is pointless. Don't be a jerk.

I dont wanna pretend to be PC here. To me, Germany is more important than Belarus or Italy is more important than Ukraine, in the european context (history, economy.. and basically everything). You dont have to agree with me , as well i dont agree with Inese blondicist theories.

[Inese]

Look at a map, maybe you'll notice that the Iberian Peninsula is at the very Western tip of the Continent. So it's Western, it's correct.
Maybe you should post Easter European aswell, that's were you live and were brought up at, right?
Easter Europe?? :confused: Is that the part of Europe where the Easter rabbits live hmm? :D You look on a map please ---- Spain is on the southern half of Europe!

Even if you do look like a nordic from a physiologic point of view, it doesn't make you a real Nordic.
Hello?? What stupid logic is that? " Even if you drink a Coca Cola you dont drink a Cola!"? :rolleyes2: I tell you that Nordic traits have nothing to do with country borders!! You know, Swedish people can have Nordic traits, Norwegian people , German people, Estonian people or Latvian people. You talk big crap if you think that Nordic stops at the border of Norway and Finland!

You don't have their culture, and it's funny you are always saying you are Nordic at all time
No i dont have Scandinavian culture, i have Baltic culture. But Scandinavia and Baltic people are often Nordic people ---- not always but often!

Now go do somethin useful for WesternCivilization, like studying or reading a book.
Hm if i take a book about Spain history the biggest part is about the Muslim Moor and the califate of Cordoba!.....:embarrassed Wonderful civilisation , yes yes, the mosques and eunuchs. ^^


Girl, you´re from Latvia, I wouldn´t try to mock Portugal, Spain or Italy if I was from a pointless country like that :confused:
Think what you think , but do you think your country is special?? You have very many debts and other countrys need to help you to prevent bankrupt!! I ask what was Spain after the dictate of Franco?? It joined the EU and received very much money to build it up again , your country was poorer than Latvia! Big culture, wow!! :rolleyes: Many southern people have a blow up ego like a air balloon. You take a pin and puuuuffffffffffff

[Svarog]

You people carry a huge talent when it comes to posting, the way this thread has evolved and changed topics is truly something.

[Vasconcelos]

Inese, you're hopeless, I won't even bother replying to such a silly post. Or any of yours, for that matter, I don't want to get angry on teh intahrwebz.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Easter Europe?? :confused: Is that the part of Europe where the Easter rabbits live hmm? :D You look on a map please ---- Spain is on the southern half of Europe!

Hello?? What stupid logic is that? " Even if you drink a Coca Cola you dont drink a Cola!"? :rolleyes2: I tell you that Nordic traits have nothing to do with country borders!! You know, Swedish people can have Nordic traits, Norwegian people , German people, Estonian people or Latvian people. You talk big crap if you think that Nordic stops at the border of Norway and Finland!

No i dont have Scandinavian culture, i have Baltic culture. But Scandinavia and Baltic people are often Nordic people ---- not always but often!

Hm if i take a book about Spain history the biggest part is about the Muslim Moor and the califate of Cordoba!.....:embarrassed Wonderful civilisation , yes yes, the mosques and eunuchs. ^^


Think what you think , but do you think your country is special?? You have very many debts and other countrys need to help you to prevent bankrupt!! I ask what was Spain after the dictate of Franco?? It joined the EU and received very much money to build it up again , your country was poorer than Latvia! Big culture, wow!! :rolleyes: Many southern people have a blow up ego like a air balloon. You take a pin and puuuuffffffffffff

I believe you're too retarded to understand the difference between Nordic and Nordid.

[Tony]

The concept of states as legally defined entities dates, roughly, to the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 but nation is as old as we have historical records; certainly there was an English identity from at least the 6th century. The English always considered themselves separate from the Welsh and Scots and it took the best part of three centuries for the Normans to be absorbed into “Englishness”.

England was a nation long before it became a unified state, and both of these concepts were formed before the 11th century.
Save the England , that's a case apart , particularly favoured by its geographical isolation , I think he's right.
The term nation in the Middle Eve indicated not a state but more an ethnic group , for instance when students went studyin abroad the university organization used to put them along their national identification regardless state borders , for instance the students for Germany were all grouped in the nation of Germans even a German state didn't exist at all.

Imho the modern concept of nation-states only emerged gradually over the XIX century , along with the literacyzation of the masses.

That's the exact moment when intellectuals in , for instance Scandinavia , felt the need to distinct their own languages and purge them by the nearby ones loans , that's also the exact moment when Scandinavia unity felt apart along blood ehnic lines.
And this system also worked in the East Europe and the Balkans with the creation of new states like Serbia or Romania.

Untill the '800s the concept of one state , one language , one ethnicity , didn't really exist.
States weren't inditifiable by a specific ethnic group but by the king/queen who ruled them.

[Beorn]

Tight West Saxon supremacy within England is the origin of the 'British State' that you so abhor.

How so? I have to admit to that one breaking the sound barrier as it went over my head.


It was already there. Athelstan just recovered bits.

The lands had been occupied by the English speaking peoples, of course, but not under a unified English nation living under one religion/church and one law and one monarch.


Some would argue Alfred the Great (849-899) on the basis that he was the king of what remained of England after the Danish invasions. “All the English not under Danish rule submitted to Alfred” as the AS Chronicle states.

Others would argue for Edgar (959-979) who truly finalised the formation of the English state.

I had always worked under the belief that Alfred the Great was the king of Wessex and of the English speaking people, not the king of England.

Ah well, the last few pages has opened up my eyes to what other Englishmen believe at least. :)

[Osweo]

How so? I have to admit to that one breaking the sound barrier as it went over my head.
It brought about the centralisation of power in the southeast. This inexorably led to the decline of local autonomy and the disregard of regional peculiarity. The 'Hinterland' became a mere economic resource, just waiting for the Norman business genius to come and finalise the parasitic system once and for all.

The lands had been occupied by the English speaking peoples,
Why use such an absurd term? There were no Canadians or Yanks or Alabama negro slave descendants then! The people you talk of were English-BE-ING people! Already in 741 we see them expressing their unity (Bede's book title). The institution of the Bretwalda proclaimed this almost as soon as they'd gotten off the boat, even.

of course, but not under a unified English nation living under one religion/church and one law and one monarch.
What does a nation need to be unified?
One language - check
One religious tradition - check
One set of folklore - check
One common literature - check
One common way of living - check

As for law, before the 'modernisation' that came with the Church and the desire to streamline English practice with the most 'up to date' Frankish examples, we were governed by a customary law that had little changed since it was brought over from the Continent.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The only reason the UK even has a resemblance of success because it marginalised the use of Scottish, Welsh and Irish and at the same the same peoples only speak English (even less know their indigenous language).

[Beorn]

Why use such an absurd term?

Because that is what they were.


Already in 741 we see them expressing their unity (Bede's book title). The institution of the Bretwalda proclaimed this almost as soon as they'd gotten off the boat, even.

Any man with enough wealth and strength could claim to be a Bretwalda, as was the case. I certainly wouldn't consider a Mercian Bretwalda, say, subjecting the people of Wessex to his rule as an English king, or a king of England.


What does a nation need to be unified?
One language - check
One religious tradition - check
One set of folklore - check
One common literature - check
One common way of living - check

Would you not consider an accepted monarch and dynasty as one more to check?

[Osweo]

Because that is what they were.
But it's completely unnecessary. They were English. As English as you are. Why don't we call you an 'English-speaking person'? Because it's completely redundant. It's like calling a man a 'bipedal hominid'.

Any man with enough wealth and strength could claim to be a Bretwalda, as was the case. I certainly wouldn't consider a Mercian Bretwalda, say, subjecting the people of Wessex to his rule as an English king, or a king of England.
I see no essential difference to the position of many contemporary rulers.

Would you not consider an accepted monarch and dynasty as one more to check?
No. The Icelanders did well enough without one. Was there no German nation between 1801 and 1871?!?

It just boils down to your understanding of 'nation' as meaning 'nation-state'. The fact that there is such a term as 'nation-state' ought to indicate that 'nation' is something else.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Hippaforalkus
The only reason the UK even has a resemblance of success because it marginalised the use of Scottish, Welsh and Irish and at the same the same peoples only speak English (even less know their indigenous language).

If I was asked the various influences that have made the UK a reasonably successful entity for its size and position I would have to say that a relatively stable system of government is one, another is a general mentality conducive to enterprise and curiosity (It’s somewhat difficult to imagine the scientific and industrial revolutions happening in Italy, Spain, France or Germany, the conditions were simply wrong), a third is that the British used their geographical position to the full in building a trading empire.

I would also add that it was the formation of the UK that allowed the talent within Scotland to come to the fore, in 1707 Scotland was a country whose economy wasn’t much bigger than Yorkshire, the city of Newcastle alone had a tenth of the trade of Scotland. Could the “Scottish Enlightenment” the vital contributions made by Scots in philosophy (David Hume, shaped the empiricism central to much of the British outlook) and the contributions of Scots to science have happened without the medium of the union with England? I don’t believe so. Also Gaelic was a language relegated to the Highland regions long back in Scottish history, not least because the Scots encouraged Anglo-Norman settlement in the 12th century.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Captain Blackbeard
I certainly wouldn't consider a Mercian Bretwalda, say, subjecting the people of Wessex to his rule as an English king, or a king of England.

Err that’s exactly what Alfred and his descendents did i.e. extend Wessex north.

[Beorn]

But it's completely unnecessary. They were English. As English as you are.

Yes, but these 'English speaking peoples' were living in a foreigners land under a foreigners rule.


Err that’s exactly what Alfred and his descendents did i.e. extend Wessex north.

Taking back land won by the Danes.

[Osweo]

Yes, but these 'English speaking peoples' were living in a foreigners land under a foreigners rule.
AH! You're talking about the DANELAW! So, the English were living in their own land, many under their own rule (Bernicia was independent of York, many other parts were less Danish than you seem to imagine - Blackburnshire and Salfordshire, for instance), under the rule of kindred Germanics whose language they could understand and whom they had already to some extent anglicised.

Taking back land won by the Danes.
Hehe, he didn't hand it over to the rightful heirs of Mercia and Northumbria though, did he?! :D

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Captain Blackbeard
Taking back land won by the Danes.

Western Mercia wasn’t Danish……

The other political units (East Anglia, Northumbria) largely remained under Danish rule, Alfred wasn’t a fool he exploited an opportunity to tie other kingdoms to him.

The Danes were absorbed into English culture, not vice versa, though, of course, they left their impact. I believe I have used several Scandinavian words in that post, which has come to you from Derby by a man whose surname ends in Son (though the last bit is probably Norman).

[Osweo]

by a man whose surname ends in Son
I meant to mention this another time, as you've said this before with regard to Danish inheritance...

"... it is clear that in the fourteenth century, when surnames in -son begin to appear again, they were not limited to the north. It is unlikely that in Somerset, Sussex and Surrey these names should be due to Scandinavian influence. Tengvik notes in his Old English material examples are found at a dates when 'we can hardly reckon with any important Scandinavian influence'. THe local distribution of the type, too (especially in Devonshire), points to a native origin.

In the north we may have to reckon with Scandinavian influence also, but the frequency of the type may be due, in part at least, to the late development there of hereditary surnames."

- A Dictionary of English Surnames, Reaney and Wilson 1997 Oxford. :thumb001:

[Liffrea]

In the north we may have to reckon with Scandinavian influence also, but the frequency of the type may be due, in part at least, to the late development there of hereditary surnames.

It’s plausible, but I have to go with what I know of my ancestry and what I have been able to find out about my surname. As far as I am aware I have absolutely no ancestry what so ever from western or south-west England. Most of it is East Midlands, specifically Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire and going back in some cases to the 1760’s. In England Kent is the other region Sheerness, though, tell a lie, I do have ancestors from Salford (who may or may not have been of Irish extraction but weren’t Stevenson’s anyway they were Jackson’s and Lawless). I know I have relations (Patterson’s) from Scotland (I have never met them) and a great grandmother of Irish extraction.

From the little I have been able to find out about Stevenson it is either a patronym or comes from Steven’s Ton (town) but in either case seems to have originated in Ayreshire, possibly as a sept of the Stewarts and is descendent of Norman settlers in the 12th century.

Edit:

Most likely Anglo-Norman, which would explain the Old English ton....

[Troll's Puzzle]

you guys will have more luck trying to bash a hole in a wall with your head than talk sense into beor... wa.... erm, Captain Allahbeard ;)

[Osweo]

It’s plausible, but I have to go with what I know of my ancestry and what I have been able to find out about my surname. As far as I am aware I have absolutely no ancestry what so ever from western or south-west England. Most of it is East Midlands, specifically Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire and going back in some cases to the 1760’s.

You may be interested in a little map I made of the Derbyshire Domesday, based on a Victoria County History - Danes and English seem about fifty fifty from the names of tenants in tempus Regis Eduardis. Perhaps you could count them yourself and tell me what the figure is? Coloured blobs indicate likely multiple holdings of the larger landowners - especially the English named Leofric and Leofnoth.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3274/derbydomesdaynamesbar.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/derbydomesdaynamesbar.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Beorn]

Captain Allahbeard ;)

Didn't they have a thread on Skadi about beards being Muslim and all good Germanics should be clean shaven?

Anyway, here's to King Athelstan. The first king of England. ... *





* (insert Guinness smilie here)

[Falkata]

Think what you think , but do you think your country is special?? You have very many debts and other countrys need to help you to prevent bankrupt!! I ask what was Spain after the dictate of Franco?? It joined the EU and received very much money to build it up again , your country was poorer than Latvia! Big culture, wow!! :rolleyes: Many southern people have a blow up ego like a air balloon. You take a pin and puuuuffffffffffff

Latvia has the highest unemployment of Europe, even more than Spain. And a normal salary in Spain is like twice a latvian one. Actually, Latvia and Lithuania have the lowest minimum salaries of Europe. I dont wanna even talk about other issues like health care, airports, highways, trains... because the comparison would turn ridiculous.
In the 60´s Spain was already richer than Latvia by the way, and we hadn´t the support of the USSR.

[manu]

If you need to ask me what I have read in order to refute me, you are a waste of time.

the gospels are openly in contradiction with nationalism, but you can distort and manipulate them as you wish, it's typical of any religion.:ohwell:




Exactly, a tradition of 2000 years unlike your sparse years of atheistic existance.

yeah, 2000 years of lies, corruption, ignorance and priest-on-boys-action.:angel



If you read them instead of asking for more, I would condescend to reply.

You are waste of time though :wink
I know that rational arguments are a waste of time for you religious people...

[Eldritch]

In the 60´s Spain was already richer than Latvia by the way, and we hadn´t the support of the USSR.

Support would not be the number one term to cross my mind when thinking about the Soviet occupation of Latvia though.

[Ibericus]

Btw, Andorra is a latin country and has higher per capita than Iceland, Denmkar, Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, etc, etc

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html