Just an idea: what about a new Holy Roman Empire ?

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Holy_Roman_Empire_ca.1600.svg

I have been thinking about something. One of the most important nations (if it can be called one in the modern sense of the word) in Medieval Europe was the Holy Roman Empire.

It worked through a system of circles (we for instance were part of the Burgundian Circle) and with nobles (the socalled Prince Electors - the Kurfürst in German, keurvorst in Dutch) who elected the Emperor.

Would it make sense to come up with a modern version of the HRE and unite the German peoples - including the Dietsers (the Dutch, the Flemish and the Walloons) in a kind of Central European league where the nations involved can still preserve their own local traditions, heritage and language ?
The principal language of such an alliance could be German.

What do you people think about it ?

[Äike]

I am a supporter of nation states and dislike empires.

[The Lawspeaker]

I am a supporter of nation states and dislike empires.
It would not really be an empire. More like a kind of loose federation.
But Estonia was never part of it so perhaps this is a more interesting subject for Germans, Dutch, "Belgians", Luxemburgers, Austrians and Swiss.

It could work with a kind of two tier system: the peoples of Greater Germany, the Greater Netherlands and Switzerland would send representatives to parliament and the prince electors (which could be selected by the people --think about America -- or selected by right of birth (nobility) could select the Emperor (which could be turned down by a Diet or in a referendum). An Emperor would be no different then a President (f.i the one from the United States) but could even have less power.

In practice all nations and provinces would keep their independence and their own parliaments and institutions but they could work together.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I have been thinking about something. One of the most important nations (if it can be called one in the modern sense of the word) in Medieval Europe was the Holy Roman Empire.

It worked through a system of circles (we for instance were part of the Burgundian Circle) and with nobles (the socalled Prince Electors - the Kurfürst in German, keurvorst in Dutch) who elected the Emperor.

Would it make sense to come up with a modern version of the HRE and unite the German peoples - including the Dietsers (the Dutch, the Flemish and the Walloons) in a kind of Central European league where the nations involved can still preserve their own local traditions, heritage and language ?
The principal language of such an alliance could be German.

What do you people think about it ?

The smaller ethnic groups will complain about the German hegemony in HRE and the country breaks up in a violent civil war 50 years later.

[Äike]

It would not really be an empire. More like a kind of loose federation.
But Estonia was never part of it so perhaps this is a more interesting subject for Germans, Dutch, "Belgians", Austrians and Swiss.

Estonia used to be part of the Holy Roman Empire for a short period of time.

[Furlan]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Holy_Roman_Empire_ca.1600.svg

I have been thinking about something. One of the most important nations (if it can be called one in the modern sense of the word) in Medieval Europe was the Holy Roman Empire.

It worked through a system of circles (we for instance were part of the Burgundian Circle) and with nobles (the socalled Prince Electors - the Kurfürst in German, keurvorst in Dutch) who elected the Emperor.

Would it make sense to come up with a modern version of the HRE and unite the German peoples - including the Dietsers (the Dutch, the Flemish and the Walloons) in a kind of Central European league where the nations involved can still preserve their own local traditions, heritage and language ?
The principal language of such an alliance could be German.

What do you people think about it ?

Walloons German people?!? :confused:
However I think it would be great but you want to limit it to Germany and Benelux so? Also other countries were part of the Holy Roman Empire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holy_Roman_Empire_ca.1600.svg

[The Lawspeaker]

Walloons German people?!? :confused:
However I think it would be great but you want to limit it to Germany and Benelux so? Also other countries were part of the Holy Roman Empire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holy_Roman_Empire_ca.1600.svg
Walloons are nothing but Frenchified Dutch. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Netherlands) :wink
Well.. Admittedly Austrians are a German people and the Dutch too have ancient ties to Germany.


Estonia used to be part of the Holy Roman Empire for a short period of time.
We were in it until we became independent from it in 1648.

[Wyn]

It would not really be an empire. More like a kind of loose federation.

The Holy Roman Loose Federation has a nice ring to it. ;)

Interesting idea, and I find the HRE interesting in general, but It could never happen today. No way. Trying to band the Dutch and Germans together once again would be a job enough, without the rest.

[Furlan]

Walloons are nothing but Frenchified Dutch. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Netherlands) :wink
Well.. Admittedly Austrians are a German people and the Dutch too have ancient ties to Germany.


We were in it until we became independent from it in 1648.

Also much part of Northern Italy was part of the Holy Roman Empire, notably my region (Friaul), Trentino (Welsch Tyrol) and the city of Triest.

Can we join the party? :D

By the way, give a look to this: http://www.mitteleuropa.it/

[The Lawspeaker]

It would indeed be a very slow process. But I think that it would be a nice alternative to the EU.
It would hold the middle between a modern democratic process and the aristocracy with the aristocracy (being kept in check by a constitution and vigorous checks on their ties with Bilderberg) to make sure that the Left doesn't take over.
A HRE could also work in order to protect nationalist interests and to preserve the cultures of those participating because it is an alliance based on the history and heritage of those participating--- because after all: Diets (Dutch, Flemish, Walloons), Luxemburgers, Germans and Austrians (and German Swiss) all spring from the same German original source. With the Emperor serving as a mere figurehead.



Also much part of Northern Italy was part of the Holy Roman Empire, notably my region (Friaul), Trentino (Welsch Tyrol) and the city of Triest.

Can we join the party? :D

By the way, give a look to this: http://www.mitteleuropa.it/

The Italians of the North were definetely influenced by the HRE and the Austrian Empire but they don't belong to the same family.. so no.
Although it is very interesting to see that a bunch of Italians already were speaking about the idea of a Mittel Europa.

[Hussar]

Hmmm.....yes, i could agree.

[The Lawspeaker]

So what areas should actually be part of it ? The Greater Netherlands, Greater Germany (inc. Austria), Luxemburg and Switzerland.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/HeelNederlandinEuropa.png


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Gro%C3%9Fdeutschen_Reiches.png

(thus minus Poland and the Czech Republic)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Sprachen_CH_2000_EN.svg

There could be all sorts of local arrangements for instance the protection of (Walloon or Swiss) French or Swiss Italian made as dependending on the participating member state or circle.

[Wyn]

It would indeed be a very slow process. But I think that it would be a nice alternative to the EU.


I think if it was restricted purely to the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Alsace, Luxembourg and so on, and was under the rule of a decent government(s?), then it could be beneficial to it's inhabitants. And there is the obvious danger of it becoming another EU - such unions only really exist today as greedy monkey-making empires that act against the best interests of the people inside them.

Out of curiosity, if the near-impossible were to happen and a referendum were held in each of the territories that would potential form a new HRE...how would you vote?

[The Lawspeaker]

I would vote as depending on the kind of structure that such a union would take. If it would protect and enhance our culture and sovereignty but also made sure that the last hurdles between full economic integration of Germany and the Netherlands then I would vote in favour of it.

As long as the Rijksdag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_(institution)) would focus on the most important issues (with it's agenda set up by petitions and local government) and only convene when needed (leaving policy making decentralized) it would be a fairly nice form of government. Such a union would barely need any new institutions and the Rijksdag could convene anywhere within the union. At one year it could be in Vienna, ten years later in Worms, then again in Brussels etc.

And when it comes to the Emperor he could also move around paltsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiserpfalz) and have a special one in f.i Vienna.
Another nice structure would be an Rijkskamergerecht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Chamber_Court) (Imperial High Court) and an Reichshofrat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aulic_Council) that would settle disputes between the participants.

[Hussar]

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ue3cev.png

[Furlan]

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ue3cev.png

:thumb001:

[Aramis]

What is it with memebrs here and their dreams about the revival of long gone empires? The only empire we all realistically will belong to is the EU, that's about it.

I thought the main goal of forums like the Apricity was to promote ethnic nationalism and sovereign states, not pan-European multiculturalism.

I'd support Slovenians anytime in their struggle against monsters like this one (http://i49.tinypic.com/2ue3cev.png).

[Wyn]

The New Holy Roman Empire, Emporer Caedmon's revision:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2rpu1d4.jpg

[Hussar]

Nah, wasn't very good.

This is better...........


http://i49.tinypic.com/ibbb4y.gif

[The Lawspeaker]

The New Holy Roman Empire, Emporer Caedmon's revision:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2rpu1d4.jpg You are forgetting about Pommerania, Silezia and Prussia, Southern Flanders, Artesië (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Artois), Mulhausen, Mömpelgard and the Alsace-Lorraine. :thumb001:

Anyways.. Slovenia wouldn't even be part of the HRE as they aren't a people that sprung from the German tree. And neither do the Italians by the way ;)

[Hussar]

I thought the main goal of forums like the Apricity was to promote ethnic nationalism and sovereign states, not pan-European multiculturalism.



It's normal for european nationalists supporting and planning a pan-european super power.

[The Lawspeaker]

It's normal for european nationalists supporting and planning a pan-european super power.
Particularly one that is based on ethnicity and historical and linguistic ties.
One can't call a new HRE a multicultural entity as all participants sprang from the same tree. The Slavs shouldn't even be part of it.

[Aramis]

The New Holy Roman Empire, Emporer Caedmon's revision:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2rpu1d4.jpg

Now just give those parts of France +Wallonia back to the French, and I'd be fine with the rest :tongue

[Wyn]

It was really more of a joke. ;)

Not the bit about being Emporer. At the very least I expect a title. Archduke of Bavaria or something.

And I did include Alsace, didnt I?

[blan]

the tower of babal always falls, empires go up and up and up and then crumble.
best to watch over your own yard,

[The Lawspeaker]

Now just give those parts of France +Wallonia back to the French, and I'd be fine with the rest :tongue
Nope. As Walloons aren't French but Frenchified. They are Dutch. The Walloons should actually be encouraged to purify their Walloon dialect of modern French influences.

[Aramis]

It's normal for european nationalists supporting and planning a pan-european super power.

Yes, normal I guess. But it still stays a pathetic multiculturalist attempt.

[poiuytrewq0987]

You are forgetting about Pommerania, Silezia and Prussia, Southern Flanders, Artesië (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Artois), Mulhausen, Mömpelgard and the Alsace-Lorraine. :thumb001:

Anyways.. Slovenia wouldn't even be part of the HRE as they aren't a people that sprung from the German tree. And neither do the Italians by the way ;)

Northern Italians are Germans but they were Italianized.

[Tony]

What do you people think about it ?
I don't see the usefulness of this , for instance how would it help us in protectin' against immigration and curbin' pro-minorities policies?

[The Lawspeaker]

Northern Italians are Germans but they were Italianized.
Good point. But would they fit into such an Germanic union ?


I don't see the usefulness of this , for instance how would it help us in protectin' against immigration and pro-minorities policies?
It would be a union based on in effect ethnicity so if one would look at that from that perspective it could actually work to draw up strict immigration policies together.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Good point. But would they fit into such an Germanic union ?

It depends on whether they want to be re-Germanized to be in line with their Lombard ancestors.

[The Lawspeaker]

It depends on whether they want to be re-Germanized to be in line with their Lombard ancestors.
Then they should be kept out of a union for now until they have redeveloped themselves into the Germanic direction.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Then they should be kept out of a union for now until they have redeveloped themselves into the Germanic direction.

I think they already did (the North-South divide, Lega Nord political party, and Northern Italy being the most economically productive region in Italy) so I don't see your point unless you're talking about what language they speak today?

[The Lawspeaker]

I think they already did (the North-South divide, Lega Nord political party, and Northern Italy being the most economically productive region in Italy) so I don't see your point unless you're talking about what language they speak today?
Well.. if they would develop back to their own origins including speaking a Lombardic German..

The thing is that they speak a Gallic language and have no real ties to today's Austria, Switzerland or Germany.
Dutch is very closely related to German. There is even considerable Germanic influence in Walloon French as is there in Swiss French. Where is the German influence on Lombard?

But I think that the Alps are a good southern border. Both culturally, linguistically, genetically and geographically. It's not a multicultural union but one based on a shared ethnicity.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Well.. if they would develop back to their own origins including speaking a Lombardic German..

I don't know about that, it may be an idea they've not touched on before. ;) :p

[Furlan]

I think they already did (the North-South divide, Lega Nord political party, and Northern Italy being the most economically productive region in Italy) so I don't see your point unless you're talking about what language they speak today?

Lega Nord is just a bunch of idiots: they want to replace an invented italian nation with an invented padan nation :biggrin:

Norther Italians are partially Germanic, in short the ethnic background of Northern Italy: Celtic (venetic in Veneto and Retic in the some parts of the Alps) + Roman + various Germanic populations in different amount (quite high in Lombardy and in Friuli); in my region we have also a significant influx of slovene blood in the XI sec.

Sincerly I stand up for a Central European Confederation...

http://www.tmealf.com/digital/f-Austria-Hungary-SPEC.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

So.. it may be clear that the Alps are the southern border. It has to be a Germanic union after all.
When it comes to minorities there are some that should be protected: the Slovenes and Croats in Austria, the French Swiss, the Italian Swiss, the Rumantsch in Switzerland, the French-speakers in Flanders, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg and Artesië, the Walloons (because they have been Frenchified - it would be a slow process to bring them back to their origins) and the Sorbs in Germany.

Maybe the Croats and Slovenes could even be repatriated and compensated with estates in their respective ancestral countries ? And the Sorbs could get their own nation.

[Ibericus]

Why do you want to cut Italy in half ?

[The Lawspeaker]

Why do you want to cut Italy in half ?
Not me. Ask Hippo. :thumb001:

[Furlan]

Why do you want to cut Italy in half ?

Becasue is the right thing to do ;-) and in more than in a half :p

http://www.italian-language-study.com/dialect-language/bilingual_regions.htm

[blan]

people are in divided countries for reason, human are tribal and there are diffrences in language, culture, customs, politics, manners, foods, climate, logistics ect ect ect, so its best we are divided to some extent

[Osweo]

It would be a union based on in effect ethnicity

Or linguistic, actually. I wouldn't have a problem with such unions, providing they overlapped with other unions, rather than being mutually exclusive. This would better reflect the nuances of ethnogenesis, in which several sources are almost always involved, and would better prevent friction between blocs.

As such, parts of Slavdom could have membership, in recognition of old links, while still belonging to other spheres.

Unfortunately, these well-intentioned ideals have a tendency to become parasitic gravy-trains for bureaucrats, and ready prey for international banksters. IF proper safeguards against these were enshrined constitutionally in principio, however...

well, I dream! :p

This could be modified to fit post-1945 realia;
http://home.arcor.de/jean_luc/Deutsch/mundart/mundart.jpg

[Ibericus]

This doesn't make sense at all. You want to cut Italy in half for its distinctivness (north Italy closer to germany than southern Italy ?, no way) , yet you want to unite Holland and germany wich have different languages

[Cail]

Why call such a thing a neo-HRE if it will be neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Call it just a "Germanic Federation" or something.

[The Lawspeaker]

Or linguistic, actually. I wouldn't have a problem with such unions, providing they overlapped with other unions, rather than being mutually exclusive. This would better reflect the nuances of ethnogenesis, in which several sources are almost always involved, and would better prevent friction between blocs.

As such, parts of Slavdom could have membership, in recognition of old links, while still belonging to other spheres.

Unfortunately, these well-intentioned ideals have a tendency to become parasitic gravy-trains for bureaucrats, and ready prey for international banksters. IF proper safeguards against these were enshrined constitutionally in principio, however...

well, I dream! :p

This could be modified to fit post-1945 realia;
http://home.arcor.de/jean_luc/Deutsch/mundart/mundart.jpg
The Czechs ? Well.. it should remain a Germanic union but the Czechs definetely would have more rights to claim the right to partnership in such a union then any other Slavic nation.

[Osweo]

Why call such a thing a neo-HRE if it will be neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Call it just a "Germanic Federation" or something.

You miss the point; it was a long held and venerable tradition of the Heilige Roemische Reich to be neither particularly Holy, Roman, nor a proper Empire. :thumb001::swl

[Cato]

The original, real deal was much better than the Germanic trademark infringement.

[The Lawspeaker]

The original, real deal was much better than the Germanic trademark infringement.
Good ideas deserve to be copied and improved upon. :thumb001:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Maybe the Croats and Slovenes could even be repatriated and compensated with estates in their respective ancestral countries ? And the Sorbs could get their own nation.

What does that mean? You want to send back the Croats and Slovenes to where they were before they moved south?

[Osweo]

The Czechs ?
LOL, only if they wanted to! :p

But it's undeniable that northern and western Poland, Czechia, and Slovenia (maybe Croatia and Slovakia too, I weiss nicht) have a lot of German blood, culture and so on in them. The Magyars have a clear position here too. I'd like to see a few more 'semi-permeable' membranes between nations, to acknowledge this. It could go some way to reversing a few of the worst injustices, of 1918, 1945, ... 1815 and 1648 even... ;)

But no concrete political unions! Just overlapping and merging cultural clubs... Perhaps fading slightly into the political sphere, we'd have to let events take their natural course.

[Cato]

Good ideas deserve to be copied and improved upon. :thumb001:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/RomanEmpire_large.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Holy_Roman_Empire_ca.1600.svg/482px-Holy_Roman_Empire_ca.1600.svg.png

Nuff said. :)

[blan]

if i have to be honest i had a though about doing something like this for all caucasians in the Caribbean

[poiuytrewq0987]

Why call such a thing a neo-HRE if it will be neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Call it just a "Germanic Federation" or something.

We already have something like this today. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_republic)

[The Lawspeaker]

What does that mean? You want to send back the Croats and Slovenes to where they were before they moved south?
In that case protecting their local identities would be the best option.



LOL, only if they wanted to! :p

But it's undeniable that northern and western Poland, Czechia, and Slovenia (maybe Croatia and Slovakia too, I weiss nicht) have a lot of German blood, culture and so on in them. The Magyars have a clear position here too. I'd like to see a few more 'semi-permeable' membranes between nations, to acknowledge this. It could go some way to reversing a few of the worst injustices, of 1918, 1945, ... 1815 and 1648 even... ;)

But no concrete political unions! Just overlapping and merging cultural clubs... Perhaps fading slightly into the political sphere, we'd have to let events take their natural course.

Those areas in Poland used to be German to begin with. :) When it comes to countries like the Czech Republic and Slovenia they could get a special partnership of sorts.

[Wyn]

You miss the point; it was a long held and venerable tradition of the Heilige Roemische Reich to be neither particularly Holy, Roman, nor a proper Empire. :thumb001::swl

And you know, you and I are citizens of a United Kingdom. ;)

[poiuytrewq0987]

In that case protecting their local identities would be the best option.

Could you be less vague?

[The Lawspeaker]

Could you be less vague?
It's not exactly vague. They can use their own languages, have their own schools, their own local laws and full equality before the law and equal representation etc etc. Treat them as any national minority deserves be treated.

They are no imported minorities but national minorities with all the rights and duties any citizen has.

[Osweo]

Those areas in Poland used to be German to begin with. :)
Exactly the sort of talk that will fuck up your plans... :tsk:
They always had Slavs living in them, since the ...what? Sixth Century or whatever. They never went away, they were just eclipsed.

And you know, you and I are citizens of a United Kingdom. ;)
Neither particularly United, nor having a King! :p

[poiuytrewq0987]

It's not exactly vague. They can use their own languages, have their own schools, their own local laws and full equality before the law and equal representation etc etc. Treat them as any national minority deserves be treated.

They are no imported minorities but national minorities with all the rights and duties any citizen has.

So if I'm reading this right, are you saying that Croatia and Slovenia should be under the control of HRE?

[The Lawspeaker]

So if I'm reading this right, are you saying that Croatia and Slovenia should be under the control of HRE?
No. There are Slovenian and Croatian minorities in Austria. :)

[Svanhild]

I have been thinking about something. One of the most important nations (if it can be called one in the modern sense of the word) in Medieval Europe was the Holy Roman Empire.
The rather loose Holy Roman Empire was no bad creation but it included too many languages and ethnicities. Northern Italians are distant to us and only a small portion of them are italianisized Germans. I don't consider Südtirol as Northern Italy, that goes without saying.

I'd prefer a union of all German-languaged regions: Germany, Austria, Flandern, Niederlande, Liechtenstein, German-speaking Switzerland, Luxemburg, Südtirol and Elsaß-Lothringen. Let's be honest here, the Dutch language is a Northern German dialect which advanced to an own language due to political changes. Some Dutch don't like to hear it but the Dutch are a German tribe like the Saxons, the Thuringians or the Bavarians. :wink A tribe who generated independence but it doesn't change the roots. The Dutch are Duits and we are Duitsland. Van Duitsen bloed.

[The Lawspeaker]

The rather loose Holy Roman Empire was no bad creation but it included too many languages and ethnicities. Northern Italians are distant to us and only a small portion of them are italianisized Germans. I don't consider Südtirol as Northern Italy, that goes without saying.

I'd prefer a union of all German-languaged regions: Germany, Austria, Flandern, Niederlande, Liechtenstein, German-speaking Switzerland, Luxemburg, Südtirol and Elsaß-Lothringen. Let's be honest here, the Dutch language is a Northern German dialect who has developed to an own language due to political changes. Some Dutch don't like to hear it but the Dutch are a German tribe like the Saxons or the Bavarians. :wink A tribe who generated independence but it doesn't change the roots. The Dutch are Duits and we are Duitsland.
We are indeed a German people. The Dutch language has clear German origins and as long as the other Germans would respect our distinct identity then there should be no real problem. But.. Wallonia should become a part of the Greater Reich then as Walloons are Frenchified Dutch and as such part of the Greater Netherlands.

For the Netherlands as a whole (including Wallonia) there should be a kind of Burgundischer Reichskreis. And also the Swiss nation should be kept intact but receive a position similar to the Netherlands.

A union should definetely be loose though with very little central authority.

[Cail]

But.. Wallonia should become a part of the Reich then.
You should ask Wallonians first. They hate to even be in one state with Flemish, let alone some German state.

[Svanhild]

We are indeed a German people. The Dutch language has clear German origins and as long as the other Germans would respect our distinct identity then there should be no real problem. But.. Wallonia should become a part of the Reich then.
I respect the Dutch distinct identity but we should be in one nation. Do you know how distant the Bavarians seems to me as a Northern German? :wink Compared to them the Dutch are like my twin sister.

[The Lawspeaker]

You should ask Wallonians first. They hate to even be in one state with Flemish, let alone some German state.
Well.. the Flemish themselves are partially to blame for that too. The Walloons are also being used by a Francophone liberal elite to push the French frontier northwards. Remove that threat and you will remove the origins of all the problems.

[The Lawspeaker]

I respect the Dutch distinct identity but we should be in one nation. Do you know how distant the Bavarians seems to me as a Northern German? :wink Compared to them the Dutch are like my twin sister.
Good point. But there is no distinct Dutch Bundesland as all Dutch provinces differ from one another. So it would very likely turn out to be some kind of Burgundian Circle.

[Wyn]

A union should definetely be loose though with very little central authority.

That could lead to the destabilisation of the union itself though, don't you think? With out the aura of solid unity (real or imagined) demands to leave the union/for independence would be triggered, I think.

[The Lawspeaker]

That could lead to the destabilisation of the union itself though, don't you think? With out the aura of solid unity (real or imagined) demands to leave the union/for independence would be triggered, I think.
Not really. The union would need a high court, a parliament that only deals with issues for the union as a whole, a single currency, the armed forces (build up from contigents from the Länder) and a figurehead (an Emperor).

Just because the Holy Roman Empire was so decentralized did it last around a 1000 years.
There doesn't even need to be a real set capital and the Rijksdag could convene in any city of it's choosing and move on to the next city. The same goes for the Emperor. Everything could remain decentralized.

[Loddfafner]

You miss the point; it was a long held and venerable tradition of the Heilige Roemische Reich to be neither particularly Holy, Roman, nor a proper Empire. :thumb001::swl

You beat me to it. As long as Voltaire's observation to that effect holds for any revival, it would be a good idea.

[Osweo]

I respect the Dutch distinct identity but we should be in one nation. Do you know how distant the Bavarians seems to me as a Northern German? :wink Compared to them the Dutch are like my twin sister.

THis makes far more sense, to be honest. :p
http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/v/ve/verbreitungsgebiet_der_heutigen_niederdeutschen_mu ndarten.png

http://lowlands-l.net/

[Aemma]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Holy_Roman_Empire_ca.1600.svg

I have been thinking about something. One of the most important nations (if it can be called one in the modern sense of the word) in Medieval Europe was the Holy Roman Empire.

It worked through a system of circles (we for instance were part of the Burgundian Circle) and with nobles (the socalled Prince Electors - the Kurfürst in German, keurvorst in Dutch) who elected the Emperor.

Would it make sense to come up with a modern version of the HRE and unite the German peoples - including the Dietsers (the Dutch, the Flemish and the Walloons) in a kind of Central European league where the nations involved can still preserve their own local traditions, heritage and language ?
The principal language of such an alliance could be German.

What do you people think about it ?

Why reinvent the wheel when Charlemagne already had a good thing going?

Forget "Holy" and much less "Roman"!

Long live the Frankish Empire! :D

http://i49.tinypic.com/2yn00uh.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

Why reinvent the wheel when Charlemagne already had a good thing going?

Forget "Holy" and much less "Roman"!

Long live the Frankish Empire! :D

http://i49.tinypic.com/2yn00uh.jpg
Errr no. French are no German people. It would be a union of all the German peoples in Europe with special rights for the Greater Netherlands and Switzerland because both house a considerable amount of people that don't speak a German language.

[Aemma]

Nope. As Walloons aren't French but Frenchified. They are Dutch. The Walloons should actually be encouraged to purify their Walloon dialect of modern French French influences.

I wonder how many Walloons would object to the above statement had we any members on this forum! :P :D

[Osweo]

Why reinvent the wheel when Charlemagne already had a good thing going?

Forget "Holy" and much less "Roman"!

Long live the Frankish Empire! :D


Hoho, but don't forget it took a Northern Englishmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcuin), trained in an Irish tradition, to give him the idea...

:thumb001:

[Aemma]

Errr no. French are no German people. It would be a union of all the German peoples in Europe with special rights for the Greater Netherlands and Switzerland because both house a considerable amount of people that don't speak a German language.

Well if your organisation is *that* "German" you might want to reconsider the whole "Roman" bit? ;)

But you look only so far. Have you no vision, Man? The Franks kicked all of their asses and sorry but the French have every right to being lumped in as Frankish as well! Besides you Dutch are no more "German" than the English are!

[Baron Samedi]

Well if your organisation is *that* "German" you might want to reconsider the whole "Roman" bit? ;)

But you look only so far. Have you no vision, Man? The Franks kicked all of their asses and sorry but the French have every right to being lumped in as Frankish as well! Besides you Dutch are no more "German" than the English are!

Post deleted.

[Aramis]

It would be a union based on in effect ethnicity

Been there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Slavism), done that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavia).


so if one would look at that from that perspective it could actually work to draw up strict immigration policies together.

That's nonesense. If the will exists, one cold restrict immigration from a nation state as well.

I believe the problem to be the rising affiliation of nations towards a liberal market, free trade and accumulation of wealth, rather then their respective ethnic identities and cultural values.
It all starts with multiculturalism, yet ends up in a monoculture, with nothing but the illusion of diversity, wich by any means can not exist on a single space and time. It's a logical fallacy.
Profit has no race, nation, gender or sexuality.

An empire has no other meaning then to rule over the subdued, their exploitation in favor of the ruling master nation and/or class. It's cultural hegemony. Contemporary circumstances will lead your "New Holy Roman Empire" to become nothing but a smaller version of the EU.

Some kind of "Germanic Confederation" with cultural and economic cooperation may be realistic. For what purpose though?

[Hussar]

The rather loose Holy Roman Empire was no bad creation but it included too many languages and ethnicities. Northern Italians are distant to us and only a small portion of them are italianisized Germans. I don't consider Südtirol as Northern Italy, that goes without saying.

I'd prefer a union of all German-languaged regions: Germany, Austria, Flandern, Niederlande, Liechtenstein, German-speaking Switzerland, Luxemburg, Südtirol and Elsaß-Lothringen



Sorry, but i have to be critic on the statement. And not because my nationality is "italian".

The term "EMPIRE", per sè, means something more than a common ethnicity. Since the begin. It's a form of identity trascending the single languages. An "EMPIRE" is commonly constituted by different ethnicities who join the same political project.

In the modern era, the Tsarist Empire was composed by several different reigns (even non-russian speaking or non-slavic), under the rule of the Emperor (Tsar), for example.

This is the deep nature of the term "Empire" : something OVER the most basilar ethnic demarkations. A superior power. What charachterizes an "Empire", distinguishing it from a common national state, is its ability to expand over its initial borders, keeping e solid grade of cohesion although a great internal variation. It's a political category belonging to a different (higher) ideologic dimension if compared to lower (but more tangible, i admit) spheres of identity (= language, etc.)


The presence of northern Italy and eastern France (Burgundy + Provence) that you find aberrant and vaguely displeasing (it's clear from your lines) was, paradoxically, what charachterized the "Holy Roman empire" as such.

Without them.........it's not an Empire. Would be just a well done block of germanic populations.
To be more direct : what you've hypothized above, it's just a germanic federation. Probably more pragmatic and cohese, yes. More fuctional. But NOT an empire. Not an interesting solution for anyone else than germanics. Not a European political project with the potential to cross the simple ethnic germanic borders.

Be carefull : i'm not supporting an exaggerated and naive pan europeism (i'm very critic on many points of UE, included its current geographical extension), but on the opposite, your vision is strikingly limited, considering the deep sense behind ASEGA's thread (some hipothetical, prestigious, alternative to UE).

Btw, the concept of "EMPIRE" isn't native of the germanic civilisation (more "autoctonist" by nature). It's a more evoluted romance concept. So you're forgiven ;)
However great non-romance entities like RUSSIA and G.B. created titanic empires through the centuries , internalizing the "imperial philosphy").

[Tabiti]

I am a supporter of nation states and dislike empires.
I share the same opinion.

[Sahson]

All the Austrians I know, and the ones in my family hate Germans. I don't think Austrians would unite with the germans, in a Germanic Union. How about we relive the Austrian-Hungarian Empire?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png/800px-Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png

http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/westeurope/AustroHungarian.gif

What you think?

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Aemma
Besides you Dutch are no more "German" than the English are!

Well if the German people’s are having theirs it’s only right that the English should reclaim the English dominions, or at least the parts that are still remotely English (which isn’t a great deal anymore).

Still makes you wonder what might have been if the UK had continued to look outwards instead of towards Europe, a nice thing we had before we stabbed our colonial cousins in the back and threw our lot in with the EU or EEC as it were then.

An Anglo-Saxon global empire and a re-vitalised Royal Navy.:D

[Aramis]

All the Austrians I know, and the ones in my family hate Germans. I don't think Austrians would unite with the germans, in a Germanic Union. How about we relive the Austrian-Hungarian Empire?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png/800px-Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png

http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/westeurope/AustroHungarian.gif

What you think?

Good idea. And the rest of the Balkans we'll give back to the Ottomans.

[Aemma]

Well if the German people’s are having theirs it’s only right that the English should reclaim the English dominions, or at least the parts that are still remotely English (which isn’t a great deal anymore).

Still makes you wonder what might have been if the UK had continued to look outwards instead of towards Europe, a nice thing we had before we stabbed our colonial cousins in the back and threw our lot in with the EU or EEC as it were then.

An Anglo-Saxon global empire and a re-vitalised Royal Navy.:D

Well since Her Royal Highness was in our country this past week and we are technically still her loyal subjects, why the heck not?! :D

[Wyn]

Well if the German people’s are having theirs it’s only right that the English should reclaim the English dominions, or at least the parts that are still remotely English (which isn’t a great deal anymore).

Never mind the dominions, we should get to work on reclaiming old England. Didn't Roger of Wendover write that Lothian was given to the Scots by Edgar the Peaceful? We'll have that back. The human/kebab shop ratio would probably treble overnight.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Caedmon
Didn't Roger of Wendover write that Lothian was given to the Scots by Edgar the Peaceful?

It was William of Malmesbury who claimed that Edgar ceded it to the Scots.

Scots (and some English) historians argue it was taken by the “Big Head” Malcolm Canmore after the Battle of Carham in 1016 or 1018. The battle was fought just south of the Tweed, which became the permanent border of the two kingdoms. By 1018 Cnut was undisputed king of England and Northumbria was under the control of the Norse Earl Eric of Hlathir. Yet it is also argued that Huctred led the Northumbrians.

I’m an East Mercian myself with scant knowledge of the border lands, whilst some of my ancestors (unfortunately) hail from the savage lands of the Scot, evil rumour of the Irish stain is rampant as well (though I am quick to destroy any record and pay off any rumour monger with dodgy evidence), I myself have never ventured further than Scarborough, the barbarous conditions of the north (do they have electricity yet north of Whitby?) are not to my taste, the Danelaw enjoys the fruits of London and the south without the Wessex nancyism of the overly French southern ponce. Yet, I understand, that the inhabitants of the bleak lands either side of the border have a great degree of kinship, enough to unburden them of their oppression by the hated Gael and Briton. We will make Englishmen of them yet.:D:p

[Wyn]

It was William of Malmesbury who claimed that Edgar ceded it to the Scots.

Close enough - nobody's perfect. ;) I was near-certain it was RoW...

[Crossbow]

All the Austrians I know, and the ones in my family hate Germans. I don't think Austrians would unite with the germans, in a Germanic Union. How about we relive the Austrian-Hungarian Empire?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png/800px-Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png

http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/westeurope/AustroHungarian.gif

What you think?

Ironically, Hitler was an Austrian by birth, who disliked the Austrian-Hungarian Empire for being an ethnic mixture. He was striving for the union of all ethnic German populations, and the protection of 'Deutschtum' everywhere.
There has been a rather long tradition of animosity between Prussia and
Austria, maybe you refer to this when you are saying that all Austrians you know hate Germans. Does this apply to Bavarians and other South- Germans as well? Their cultures resemble that of Austria, and they also resemble in their dislike for Prussia/Northern Germans.
Even in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870/71, Napoleon III counted on the support of the Southern-German regions, which proved to be a miscalculation.

[Arrow Cross]

All the Austrians I know, and the ones in my family hate Germans. I don't think Austrians would unite with the germans, in a Germanic Union. How about we relive the Austrian-Hungarian Empire?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png/800px-Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png

http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/westeurope/AustroHungarian.gif

What you think?
Certainly a better idea than the status quo.

[Osweo]

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1672/800pxlocationaustriahun.png
:swl

[Wyn]

Close enough - nobody's perfect. ;) I was near-certain it was RoW...

Looks like Roger of Wendover and William of Malmesbury both recounted it:

"Roger of Wendover has preserved an account of the cession of Lothian to Kenneth, king of the Scots, in return for his homage". (http://books.google.com/books?id=S07q-UfwzHgC&pg=PA45&dq=roger+of+wendover+lothian&hl=en&ei=lsMzTJz9IcqNjAf68eiWBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=roger%20of%20wendover%20lothian&f=false) This journal (http://books.google.com/books?id=y_x4xbPOvGAC&pg=PA32&dq=roger+of+wendover+lothian&hl=en&ei=lsMzTJz9IcqNjAf68eiWBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=roger%20of%20wendover%20lothian&f=false) cites Roger of Wendover's Flores historarium, saying his account is "not independent of" a tract called De primo Saxonum adventu, and cites William of Malmesbury also.

I haven't been able to identify RoW's exact citation, but according to this completely unverifiable site (http://www.dot-domesday.me.uk/edgar.htm), RoW stated:

"... bishop Alfsey and earl Eadulf [Ealdorman Eadwulf of Bernicia] conducted Kinred [Kenneth] king of scots to king Eadgar, who made him many presents of his royal bounty; among the rest a hundred ounces of the purest gold, many ornaments of silk, rings, and precious stones. [B]He gave him, moreover, the whole district called Laudian [Lothian] in the native tongue, on this condition, that every year, on particular festivals, when the king and his successors wore the crown, he should come to court and celebrate the festival with the other princes of the realm. The king gave him besides many mansions on the road, that he and his successors might find entertainment in going to the feast, and returning; and these houses continued to belong to the kings of Scotland until the times of king Henry the second"

[Sahson]

Ironically, Hitler was an Austrian by birth, who disliked the Austrian-Hungarian Empire for being an ethnic mixture. He was striving for the union of all ethnic German populations, and the protection of 'Deutschtum' everywhere.
There has been a rather long tradition of animosity between Prussia and
Austria, maybe you refer to this when you are saying that all Austrians you know hate Germans. Does this apply to Bavarians and other South- Germans as well? Their cultures resemble that of Austria, and they also resemble in their dislike for Prussia/Northern Germans.
Even in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870/71, Napoleon III counted on the support of the Southern-German regions, which proved to be a miscalculation.

not sure, but from what my family has joked about it tends to be Germans in general. My uncle lived in Frankfurt, and hated it. He's from the east Austria though, but Germanic speaking Austria.

But even My friend from Salzburg hated Germans, and was proud to Austrian. Austria does not allow dual passports either, your Austrian or your nothing. I think there is alot of bitterness from my uncle abotu the whole annexation of Austria...

I am not for multi-ethnicities all together, MY suggestion was merely in jest. :)

[Sol Invictus]

What's wrong? EU not working out for you guys? :rolleyes:

[Sahson]

What's wrong? EU not working out for you guys? :rolleyes:

Not many Europeans like the EU. EU laws dictate national laws...

[Sol Invictus]

Not many Europeans like the EU. EU laws dictate national laws...

I know. I was about as serious as this thread is.

[Furlan]

All the Austrians I know, and the ones in my family hate Germans. I don't think Austrians would unite with the germans, in a Germanic Union. How about we relive the Austrian-Hungarian Empire?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png/800px-Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png

http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/westeurope/AustroHungarian.gif

What you think?

Great idea :thumb001:

[Inese]

If you make a new Holy Roman Empire please include Latvia! :thumbs up We had much German influence with the Teutonic order and other German settlers, you know?

[Äike]

If you make a new Holy Roman Empire please include Latvia! :thumbs up We had much German influence with the Teutonic order and other German settlers, you know?

I think that the majority of Latvians would want to be independent and not be ruled by Germans.

[Praamžius]

Cmon you holy bastards the closer the better :D

http://www.balsas.lt/06/23/romuva_px600.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

If you make a new Holy Roman Empire please include Latvia! :thumbs up We had much German influence with the Teutonic order and other German settlers, you know?
Well.. no. Latvians aren't a German people I guess. :coffee: Read what we wrote about the subject lol.



I know. I was about as serious as this thread is.

Actually a HRE would be more a nationstate as the EU is as it is based on common ancestry and common heritage.

[Sol Invictus]

Actually a HRE would be more a nationstate as the EU is as it is based on common ancestry and common heritage.

Okay. So why would you even set yourself up for even the remote possibility that a foreign despot would seize power from the hands of your people? Empires and all this non-sense? How about getting control of your own borders before setting off for conquest, glory, and all that other fantasy nonsense associated with Empires..?

[The Lawspeaker]

Okay. So why would you even set yourself up for even the remote possibility that a foreign despot would seize power from the hands of your people? Empires and all this non-sense? How about getting control of your own borders before setting off for conquest, glory, and all that other fantasy nonsense associated with Empires..?
"Empire" is a mere name. Because the monarch and figurehead is an Emperor. Japan has an Emperor and I haven't seen them conquering the world for the last 60 odd years other then through clever economic management.

And no. The Emperor would have to be elected through the electors (acting on the votes in their electoral circle) and through the convening Reichstag and in effect he would merely rubber stamp laws and cut ribbons when a new motorway or sorts is opened and visit th victims after a disaster. He is a mere symbol of a reunification as the real power would remain in the hands of local authorities and local voters.
It would be no EU- read before you write.

[Sol Invictus]

And no. The Emperor would have to be elected through the electors (acting on the votes in their electoral circle) and through the convening Reichstag and in effect he would merely rubber stamp laws and cut ribbons when a new motorway or sorts is opened and visit th victims after a disaster. He is a mere symbol of a reunification as the real power would remain in the hands of local authorities and local voters.


Figureheads? And what's the point of electing someone who rubber stamps and cuts ribbons and kisses babies on the cheek? I suppose this man/woman would be living in some great white castle with imperial guards protecting and watching his every move in case some disgruntled minority attempts his/her assassination, throwing the entire (lol) 'empire' into sectarian violence and civil war. Who's going to be paying for his rent, and keep for doing fuck all? And what's to stop him from gathering an army of slave loyalists, while their opiate of unification (of what?) is at it's peak, to stamp out and subject violence to any who oppose him while he stamps his own law permitting him to do so?

[The Lawspeaker]

Figureheads? And what's the point of electing someone who rubber stamps and cuts ribbons and kisses babies on the cheek? I suppose this man/woman would be living in some great white castle with imperial guards protecting and watching his every move in case some disgruntled minority attempts his/her assassination, throwing the entire (lol) 'empire' into sectarian violence and civil war. Who's going to be paying for his rent, and keep for doing fuck all? And what's to stop him from gathering an army of slave loyalists, while their opiate of unification (of what?) is at it's peak, to stamp out and subject violence to any who oppose him while he stamps his own law permitting him to do so?
A president or a monarch is supposed to be a mere figurehead - not a ruler.
And if you would have read a bit more you would see that the Emperor would be almost constantly on the move from town to town (as in the Frankish days) so he would stand rather close to the people themselves. One day he could be sitting in a pfaltz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiserpfalz) in Nijmegen, the next he could have dinner in a normal restaurant sharing a table with a common-as-muck worker in Frankfurt. That's his real protection. The people are his shield. It's exactly because the rulers seperated themselves from the people why people want to see them dead and buried.

His powers would be severely curtailed by a constitution, local authorities and the Reichstag (which would be elected as well). The latter of which would only convene when local authorities tell them to and each time at a different location making elitism very difficult.

[Sol Invictus]

A president or a monarch is supposed to be a mere figurehead - not a ruler.

Suppose to. In reality, time and time again, he ends up the dictator, or is overthrown by one.


the Emperor would be almost constantly on the move from town to town (as in the Frankish days) so he would stand rather close to the people themselves..

And would there be a law, enforced from above the 'Emperor' that mandates he shall not set up a permenant residence? What happens if he descides, "you know what, I've kissed enough babies and stamped enough laws, I'm going to take all that money I get and set myself up right here."

Will the "authorities" then descide to kick him out for a much leaner Emperor with happier feet, who won't mind kissing ass for the next 40 years?


That's his real protection. The people are his shield.

For what? What has this Emperor done for me? As far as I am concerned he is a thief, stealing my hard earned money for doing, once again, fuck all but make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.


It's exactly because the rulers seperated themselves from the people why people want to see them dead and buried.

Really? I could've sworn Lincoln was killed while at the theatre.


His powers would be severely curtailed by a constitution, local authorities and the Reichstag (which would be elected as well).

History shows that our 'elected' act, for the most part, out of fear or self interest - with constitutional law, in regards to electoral powers, rarely enforced.

So then, what's the point, if not to give people the illusion of having their share of power in this new, great empire run by the people?

[The Lawspeaker]

Suppose to. In reality, time and time again, he ends up the dictator, or is overthrown by one.
Then there is an enraged armed people and the armed forces. I wish him or the dictator good luck then. Because he would survive the attempt for at best 48 hours.




And would there be a law, enforced from above the 'Emperor' that mandates he shall not set up a permenant residence? What happens if he descides, "you know what, I've kissed enough babies and stamped enough laws, I'm going to take all that money I get and set myself up right here."
He can't. If he's fed up with it he can abdicate.


Will the "authorities" then descide to kick him out for a much leaner Emperor with happier feet, who won't mind kissing ass for the next 40 years?
So what do you do when you're tired of your job ? You sit down at your desk, you write a letter to your employer and tender your resignation.




For what? What has this Emperor done for me? As far as I am concerned he is a thief, stealing my hard earned money for doing, once again, fuck all but make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
I didn't know that Canada would become a part of the HRE. Since when ?





Really? I could've sworn Lincoln was killed while at the theatre.
That's after the aforementioned idiot intervened in local politics and caused a civil war where 600.000 people died. Karma is a bitch.



History shows that our 'elected' act, for the most part, out of fear or self interest - with constitutional law, in regards to electoral powers, rarely enforced.
That's because there are no real checks and balances and they convene at a place far away from the people. See the difference with the HRE: there would be checks and balances, a very powerful and very demanding local authorities and electorate and the Reichstag would gather exactly where and when the local authorities want them too.



So then, what's the point, if not to give people the illusion of having their share of power in this new, great empire run by the people?
What part of decentralized rule and national things being kept under control is so difficult to understand?

[Sol Invictus]

As much as war, death, and destruction gets me off - I would most certainly pass on this disaster waiting to happen.

[The Lawspeaker]

As much as war, death, and destruction gets me off - I would most certainly pass on this disaster waiting to happen.
The thing is that it wouldn't be your problem what is going on in Continental Europe :)
This is a European issue for starters and to make it even more narrow: an issue of Germany, the Netherlands, "Belgium", Luxembourg, Switzerland and Austria.
It's not like the first goal of the HRE would be the invasion of Canada and installing a NWO-kind of regime there.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The thing is that it wouldn't be your problem what is going on in Continental Europe :)
This is a European issue for starters and to make it even more narrow: an issue of Germany, the Netherlands, "Belgium", Luxembourg, Switzerland and Austria.
It's not like the first goal of the HRE would be the invasion of Canada and installing a NWO-kind of regime there.

I don't think others will ever let this happen because if this happened then the Germans would pretty much have a hegemony on European affairs.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't think others will ever let this happen because if this happened then the Germans would pretty much have a hegemony on European affairs.
What if the Germans wouldn't give a damn. Which is basically the reason why such an HRE should be formed: it would reunite all the Germans in Europe and take away any reason for any war whatsoever.

[poiuytrewq0987]

What if the Germans wouldn't give a damn. Which is basically the reason why such an HRE should be formed: it would reunite all the Germans in Europe and take away any reason for any war whatsoever.

Kind of like what Hitler tried to do?

[The Lawspeaker]

Kind of like what Hitler tried to do?
Yes. But Hitler showed his real colours when he crossed the border of the German-speaking Sudetenland into the rest of Czechoslovakia and when he crossed the borders from German-speaking borders into Poland.

Hitler didn't want reunification but Lebensraum. There is a very BIG difference between the two.

[Murphy]

You don't want a king or an emperor Asega.. you want a false idol. If a man is to be king let him be king and not a puppet of a parliament.

You really are quite the Protestant, Asega!

*Returns to the shadows*

[The Lawspeaker]

You don't want a king or an emperor Asega.. you want a false idol. If a man is to be king let him be king and not a puppet of a parliament.

You really are quite the Protestant, Asega!

*Returns to the shadows*
Better that then someone who rules without the consent of the governed and oppresses those that does no tow the party line.

You are quite the Catholic, Jon !

[poiuytrewq0987]

You don't want a king or an emperor Asega.. you want a false idol. If a man is to be king let him be king and not a puppet of a parliament.

You really are quite the Protestant, Asega!

*Returns to the shadows*

I thought you were leaving?

[Arrow Cross]

Yes. But Hitler showed his real colours when he crossed the border of the German-speaking Sudetenland into the rest of Czechoslovakia and when he crossed the borders from German-speaking borders into Poland.

Hitler didn't want reunification but Lebensraum. There is a very BIG difference between the two.
I don't know, he was pretty straightforward about his "colours" all the time, few politicians are as honest about their more extreme ideas as he was in Mein Kampf. I have the book, and he states in it fair and square that in order for the German people to prosper and expand, they are going to need (eastern) living space.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't know, he was pretty straightforward about his "colours" all the time, few politicians are as honest about their more extreme ideas as he was in Mein Kampf. I have the book, and he states in it fair and square that in order for the German people to prosper and expand, they are going to need (eastern) living space.
Good point. But the amount of Lebensraum he claimed wasn't actually needed by the German population. I have been in Germany and Germany has 20 million inhabitants more then it had in 1939 and it has a lot of space. All the Germans would need are those areas that it lost and it would be complete.

[Arrow Cross]

Good point. But the amount of Lebensraum he claimed wasn't actually needed by the German population. I have been in Germany and Germany has 20 million inhabitants more then it had in 1939 and it has a lot of space. All the Germans would need are those areas that it lost and it would be complete.
With all his family policies and repatriation of Ostdeutschen, the 70 million Germans of WWII would have increased significantly in the coming decades. He was planning forward; maybe not in a benevolent way, but heck, today's traitor-leaders sure don't look any further than their short-sighted economic gains.

[The Lawspeaker]

With all his family policies and repatriation of Ostdeutschen, the 70 million Germans of WWII would have increased significantly in the coming decades. He was planning forward; maybe not in a benevolent way, but heck, today's traitor-leaders sure don't look any further than their short-sighted economic gains.
Agreed. But his family policies were a stupidity. If he didn't want a war he wouldn't have needed an army. The thing is that he just wanted an imperialist war.
With the repatriation of the Ostdeutschen it would have risen a couple of million but he would have had the land on which they lived as well so there would have been no reason to take more lands.

But I agree with you when it comes to our traitor-leaders. They don't act in the interest of the nation and the people. One good point for Hitler: he looked into the future.:thumbs up

[Hussar]

I think that the majority of Latvians would want to be independent and not be ruled by Germans.


Good point. Latvians didn't accepted soviet rule. Would be different if the ruler is Germanic ?

[Hussar]

Figureheads? And what's the point of electing someone who rubber stamps and cuts ribbons and kisses babies on the cheek? I suppose this man/woman would be living in some great white castle with imperial guards protecting and watching his every move in case some disgruntled minority attempts his/her assassination, throwing the entire (lol) 'empire' into sectarian violence and civil war. Who's going to be paying for his rent, and keep for doing fuck all? And what's to stop him from gathering an army of slave loyalists, while their opiate of unification (of what?) is at it's peak, to stamp out and subject violence to any who oppose him while he stamps his own law permitting him to do so?



The reasonment and philosophy of someone from the "anglosphere". Non-continental europen.

[Sol Invictus]

Just a question: Will the great conversion to the HRE be televised? I want to be able to watch all the death and glory while I battle my bosses for better work-place conditions and maybe some better wages to feed my family.

[The Lawspeaker]

I read that you have been drinking so my kind advise is this:

Turn off your pc and sleep it off.

[Sol Invictus]

HEY

I may have been drinking but I am not drunk yet!

[Sahson]

I thoguht by now we would have all agreed on my proposal with hungary and Austria :D

[Svanhild]

All the Austrians I know, and the ones in my family hate Germans. I don't think Austrians would unite with the germans, in a Germanic Union. How about we relive the Austrian-Hungarian Empire?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png/800px-Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png

http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/westeurope/AustroHungarian.gif

What you think?
That's rubbish. The Austrian-Hungarian Empire was a multicultural melting pot monarchy and contradictory to all serious national ideas. Hungarians, Germans, Czechs, Slowaks and all other Yugoslavs are sovereign ethnicities. It makes no sense to put them together. Austria should be a part of Germany like Bavaria or Saxony. Most Austrians know that they're Germans but some became victims of propaganda who evokes independence from Germany in media and politics. Vae victis!

[Crossbow]

Kind of like what Hitler tried to do?

After WW I, president Wilson's politics of self-determination was introduced in Europe. The Austrian-Hungarian Empire fell apart in several nation states, Poland revived again as a nation. Self-determination was denied only to Germany and the German speaking countries. For them apparently there were other rules. So Hitlers demands for German self-determination were on this point quite reasonable.
Many Germans living in Sudetenland suddenly became Czech citizens, but wished to be incorporated into Austria; those living in the Polish corridor came under Polish rule. This caused tension among the new minorities, and required a solution.

[Furlan]

Just a small curiosity: which will be the official language of this new HRE: Hochdeutsch? Plattdeutsch? Frisian? Dutch?

[The Lawspeaker]

Just a small curiosity: which will be the official language of this new HRE: Hochdeutsch? Plattdeutsch? Frisian? Dutch?
There is a different language in each location but one could arrange it that the official language of the Reichstag is Hochdeutsch.

[Hussar]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png/800px-Location-Austria-Hungary-01.png
http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/westeurope/AustroHungarian.gif

What you think?



A fascinating example of inter-ethnic empire. Imperial nationlism tied to Habsbourgic crown.

But from what you can see.......germanics are allergic to stay in any kind of political entity that is inclusive of non germanic ethnicities. ;)

[Sahson]

A fascinating example of inter-ethnic empire. Imperial nationlism tied to Habsbourgic crown.

But from what you can see.......germanics are allergic to stay in any kind of political entity that is inclusive of non germanic ethnicities. ;)

Like I said tongue in cheek, I'm sure the slavs would not like such a union.

[Tingl Tangl]

what about a new Holy Roman Empire ?

Holy shit!

[Crossbow]

An interesting idea, a new Holy Roman Empire. It could be a decentralized federation, and maybe a better idea than that of a big centralized nation state. People who fear a German hegemony forget that Germany is actually the principal country in the EU in terms of finance and economy.
Germany has never been a strong nation state, without the exception of the NS- period. So a tendency towards regions with their own legislation and, to a certain extent, independency is nothing to be afraid of. Quite the contrary, the ancient HRE was a vulnerable and military weak state, a plaything of other nations because of the lack of unity. Otherwise France wouldn't have been able to rob Alsace, Lorraine, and some parts of Flanders, and Sweden wouldn't have exerted its influence and power the way it did during the Thirty Years War.
In the Netherlands provincial reforms could take place, e.g. Holland one province, the same for Brabant, Limburg, Luxemburg, Guelders, Flanders etc.

[Argyll]

No thanks. I value my own cultural identity and my ancestral counties' indepence, if you were referring to absorbing all other European nations. But I don't think other German speaking countries would appreciate being absorbed into an empire, either.

[Albion]

I don't care what you do so long as you leave the British Isles alone, England is king here. ;)


Would it make sense to come up with a modern version of the HRE and unite the German peoples - including the Dietsers (the Dutch, the Flemish and the Walloons) in a kind of Central European league where the nations involved can still preserve their own local traditions, heritage and language ?
The principal language of such an alliance could be German.

What do you people think about it ?

The German-speaking areas should definitely unite, I'm not sure about the Dutch.
I've always thought that the Greater Netherlands should be reunited.

I wouldn't include North Italy in it nor any Slavic or French-populated ares neither.
But it'd be a good idea to unite the German areas, Germany may as well be the HRE in all but name today anyway.

[Bloodraven]

There is already one. They call it Bundesrepublik Deutschland nowadays.

[Peikko]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Holy_Roman_Empire_ca.1600.svg

I have been thinking about something. One of the most important nations (if it can be called one in the modern sense of the word) in Medieval Europe was the Holy Roman Empire.

It worked through a system of circles (we for instance were part of the Burgundian Circle) and with nobles (the socalled Prince Electors - the Kurfürst in German, keurvorst in Dutch) who elected the Emperor.

Would it make sense to come up with a modern version of the HRE and unite the German peoples - including the Dietsers (the Dutch, the Flemish and the Walloons) in a kind of Central European league where the nations involved can still preserve their own local traditions, heritage and language ?
The principal language of such an alliance could be German.

What do you people think about it ?

Are you sure you're Dutch??? None of the Dutch people I know would ever want to be in a Germany-dominated Empire.

But to the topic, a loose economic union like that would have made more sense than Euro. I think the biggest problem of Euro is, that it's too big and EU-politicians have been too eager to expand. It doesn't serve all the countries economically.

[Albion]

Are you sure you're Dutch??? None of the Dutch people I know would ever want to be in a Germany-dominated Empire.

But to the topic, a loose economic union like that would have made more sense than Euro. I think the biggest problem of Euro is, that it's too big and EU-politicians have been too eager to expand. It doesn't serve all the countries economically.

Unfortunately he doesn't post here any more so won't answer. The German states + Low Countries + Scandinavia would make a better economic union though. The rest of Europe could revert to its old currencies or have similar small currency zones.

[Peikko]

Unfortunately he doesn't post here any more so won't answer. The German states + Low Countries + Scandinavia would make a better economic union though. The rest of Europe could revert to its old currencies or have similar small currency zones.

Scandos don't want to be in any currency union. Norway has oil too, so it doesn't make sense to them. Denmark suggested a Nordic Economic union in the 1970s but back then Finland rejected for obvious reasons. Would have made more sense than euro.

[Libertas]

Germans ruling Italians again?

Great idea economically.

[Albion]

Germans ruling Italians again?

Great idea economically.

Northern Italy isn't so bad. Maybe they could do "Devo max" there as some in Scotland are proposing and give fiscal powers to two separate north and south entities within Italy but remain as one country for international relations, military, et cetera.