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View Full Version : Four years in hell, and Taliban remain undefeated



Sol Invictus
07-07-2010, 11:17 PM
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6 July 2010 (The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jul/06/sangin-troop-withdrawal-taliban-undefeated)) - The first troops arrived in Sangin in June 2006, filling sandbags as they fought off the Taliban – an enemy that, four years and at least 100 British deaths later, refuses to go away.

As the casualties have mounted over the years, soldiers stationed in Sangin protected themselves with higher walls and an ever darker sense of humour.

"Welcome to Sangingrad" reads the graffiti at the base entrance, in a bitter allusion to a battle that marked a turning point in world war two. Whether that comparison will prove to be prophetic, given the announced withdrawal, remains to be seen.

One senior British non-commissioned officer who was due to deploy to the district in September today described Sangin as a "hellhole".

"It's very hard to dominate without a massive amount of manpower. All the locals there are pro-Taliban. It's an IED [improvised explosive device] hell and it's hard to keep eyes on everywhere."

He was not surprised to learn of the pullout. "Sangin has been a strategic failure. We are not having the desired effect there."

There have been moments of hope. In 2007, American and Afghan infantrymen helped clear the Taliban from Sangin. "This is an incredibly exciting time for the local people. Now they will see the benefits of reconstruction," one young British officer said at the time.

But his optimism was short-lived. Faced with superior soldiers and firepower, the Taliban skillfully employed every means at their disposal. Initially attacking with small arms and mortars, they later switched to the IED – bombs scattered across the fields and rough dirt roads that have claimed the greatest number of British lives.

Last month the deputy commander of British and US forces in Helmand, Brigadier George Norton, said the Sangin militants had switched again, now attacking with long-distance, small-arms fire – similar to sniper fire, although not as effective.

Sangin has a long history of being troublesome to foreigners. It was the scene of the first major military engagement of the second Anglo-Afghan war of 1878, when the British fought a cavalry battle against 1,500 fighters.

The latest generation of British visitors tried to remain upbeat, always claiming that the Taliban were being pushed out, and that normal life in the town was on the verge of resuming.

But as David Gill, a photographer who visited the town frequently in the past 15 months put it, Sangin was "like a ghost town in Death Valley where you drive through and all you see is a sign flapping in the wind".

In some of the more benign areas of Helmand, children may offer the occasional wave to passing soldiers, Gill said, but in Sangin "all you can feel is the intense hatred of a people who hate everything you stand for".

Another senior NCO, who has served there, said soldiers had seen the areas become more stable, with a local market starting to be established. "But it's a very, very strong Taliban area, and a lot of drugs are dealt through that town.

"It's at the bottom of the mountain, and it's on the main river and the main drug route, and is the major area for growing poppies. There's so much resistance because the people there don't want that to change."

The British mission has also been badly undermined by the failures of the Afghan government. Local leaders in Sangin have been weak, corrupt or linked to the drugs trade. Officers wrestle with fiendishly complicated local tribal politics.

As the death toll mounted, the political storm blew harder in Britain. The first row was over the availability of scarce helicopters to move troops and supplies into the stricken town.

Then Operation Panther's Claw, which began in June 2009, was billed as the big British push to clear the area from Sangin to Gereshk to the provincial capital, Lashkar Gah, of militants in time for Afghan elections later that year. In fact the map of the area has changed little in the intervening 12 months.

Last April, in the runup to the election, David Cameron offered to stop criticising Gordon Brown's government over Afghanistan if it pulled out of areas such as Sangin where the army was overstretched; he was rebuffed and told that "these are judgments for generals".

There are already more than 20,000 American troops in Helmand, twice the number of British soldiers deployed there, and they are also paying a heavy price. Last month four American troops died when their Black Hawk helicopter, on a mission to rescue wounded British soldiers, was shot down outside Sangin.

The second British officer today said the decision to pull out was "a good thing" from a soldier's point of view. "And from the bigger picture, as long as … somebody else is coming in, that's good. It's far too early to just pull out because it's not stable, but if the Americans are going to go in there then let them take the worry.

"We have paid an incredibly high price in Sangin. If you lose one soldier in one place, that's already too high a price to pay, but an awful lot of blood has been shed. So in that sense, I am pleased we will be leaving."

The Lawspeaker
07-08-2010, 12:20 AM
You know.. if they want to win the war (because it would be fair to say that it has become a real war) they should use methods that are... not fully in line with the Geneva Convention.
After every attack carried out on your troops: enter a village and line up the entire male population. For each wounded coalition soldier- shoot 10, for each killed shoot 20. (And make sure that every woman and child can watch the executions take place. They will not even be allowed to close their eyes) And burn the village to the ground.

Brutal ? Unpleasant? Immoral? Yes.. but it works.

And if it can't be won: get out and inundate that hellhole in phosgene gas. That - gentlemen- is how you fight a war.

BiałaZemsta
07-08-2010, 12:29 AM
You know.. if they want to win the war (because it would be fair to say that it has become a real war) they should use methods that are... not fully in line with the Geneva Convention.
After every attack carried out on your troops: enter a village and line up the entire male population. For each wounded coalition soldier- shoot 10, for each killed shoot 20. And burn the village down.

Brutal ? Unpleasant? Immoral? Yes.. but it works.

And if it can't be won: get out and inundate that hellhole in phosgene gas. That - gentlemen- is how you fight a war.

Killing innocent people will only make more enemies.

The Lawspeaker
07-08-2010, 12:32 AM
Killing innocent people will only make more enemies.
The problem is our morality doesn't work there. Everyone already is an enemy and if you can't win it by winning hearts and minds (which we can't) then win it by force. Thats probably (regrettably) the only thing they understand in their medieval backwardness. And (have no illusions) they would do the same thing with us if they would get the chance.

We shouldn't have been there in the first place but now that we're there let's finish it and make sure they will never forget that lesson that we ought to teach 'em: don't mess with us !

BiałaZemsta
07-08-2010, 12:39 AM
We shouldn't have been there in the first place but now that we're there let's finish it and make sure they will never forget that lesson that we ought to teach 'em: don't mess with us !

We could also finish it by just leaving. We cleary were never welcome and naturally don't belong there. As far as teaching them a lesson, lets make it known that we are taking revenge for all of their people that have been flooding Europe. This will teach 'em: Don't mess with us and stay the hell out of our countries if you want us out of yours!

The Lawspeaker
07-08-2010, 12:41 AM
We could also finish it by just leaving. We cleary were never welcome and naturally don't belong there. As far as teaching them a lesson, lets make it known that we are taking revenge for all of their people that have been flooding Europe.
They would consider us leaving to be weakness from our part and give them more confidence about them defeating us on our homeground. No.. it would be better to break them to such an extend that "Europe" will replace "Genghis Khan" in their daily speech. We can't be loved so we will have to be feared. And after we have messed up their country and bombed, gassed, shelled and blown it all the way back to the Stone Age we can go home. Leaving the Muslim World shocked and dazed.

I don't like it either but that's how those people tick. They are 800 years behind us in morality so..

BiałaZemsta
07-08-2010, 12:44 AM
They would consider us leaving to be weakness from our part and give them more confidence about them defeating us on our homeground. No.. it would be better to break them to such an extend that "Europe" will replace "Genghis Kahn" in their daily speech. We can't be loved so we will have to be feared.

I don't like it either but that's how those people tick. They are 800 years behind us in morality so..

I understand what you are saying, but also consider that destroying their homeland completely would only lead them into ours for a chance at a 'better life.'

The Lawspeaker
07-08-2010, 12:45 AM
I understand what you are saying, but also consider that destroying their homeland completely would only lead them into ours for a chance at a 'better life.'
Well. Then we shouldn't let them in in the first place. And also round up those that are already here if they haven't got a damned good excuse to be here (which is 99.9 percent of all cases).

BiałaZemsta
07-08-2010, 12:46 AM
Well. Then we shouldn't let them in in the first place. And also round up those that are already here if they haven't got a damned good excuse to be here (which is 99.9 percent of all cases).

I completely agree with you on that! :thumb001:

Sol Invictus
07-08-2010, 01:26 AM
We could also finish it by just leaving.! We cleary were never welcome and naturally don't belong there.

I agree with this 100%.


As far as teaching them a lesson, lets make it known that we are taking revenge for all of their people that have been flooding Europe.!


This however make no sense. What lesson would be learned, other than that the people of the west are indescriminate murderers, that deserve to be killed?


This will teach 'em: Don't mess with us and stay the hell out of our countries if you want us out of yours!

This just creates an endless cycle of death and needless violence. You can't fight immigration policy by using violence, it just doesn't work that way.

BiałaZemsta
07-08-2010, 01:31 AM
I agree with this 100%.




This however make no sense. What lesson would be learned, other than that the people of the west are indescriminate murderers, that deserve to be killed?



This just creates an endless cycle of death and needless violence. You can't fight immigration policy by using violence, it just doesn't work that way.

You are right. Violence is useless because revenge is a never ending circle. We don't belong in their country and they don't belong in ours.

The Lawspeaker
07-08-2010, 02:02 AM
You are right. Violence is useless because revenge is a never ending circle. We don't belong in their country and they don't belong in ours.
Tell that to them. And as long as they are in our countries and behaving abysmal we have every right to mess up theirs.

BiałaZemsta
07-08-2010, 02:13 AM
Tell that to them. And as long as they are in our countries and behaving abysmal we have every right to mess up theirs.

Then once we have messed up theirs, they can justify messing up ours. The West does not act in such a manner where we 'mess up their country.' Like you said, they are many years behind us in morality. Untill things change here politically, it is useless considering such actions. I agree that if the US and EU became a cruel violent beast we would win the war, but that is not how it works.

Matritensis
07-10-2010, 04:09 PM
You know.. if they want to win the war (because it would be fair to say that it has become a real war) they should use methods that are... not fully in line with the Geneva Convention.
After every attack carried out on your troops: enter a village and line up the entire male population. For each wounded coalition soldier- shoot 10, for each killed shoot 20. (And make sure that every woman and child can watch the executions take place. They will not even be allowed to close their eyes) And burn the village to the ground.

Brutal ? Unpleasant? Immoral? Yes.. but it works.

And if it can't be won: get out and inundate that hellhole in phosgene gas. That - gentlemen- is how you fight a war.

Well,the Russians acted brutally there during the eighties and they achieved nothing at all.

The Lawspeaker
07-10-2010, 04:16 PM
Well,the Russians acted brutally there during the eighties and they achieved nothing at all.
Nah. They were pussies. After all: there was still an Afghanistan by the time they left.

poiuytrewq0987
07-10-2010, 04:19 PM
Well,the Russians acted brutally there during the eighties and they achieved nothing at all.

The Soviet Union didn't send in enough troops to properly pacify Afghanistan. The Soviets, I believe, only sent 120,000 troops to Afghanistan, a similar amount of troops ISAF have there currently. If the Russians had sent in 300,000 to 500,000 troops then it might had been a different story.

Crossbow
07-10-2010, 04:21 PM
The problem is our morality doesn't work there. Everyone already is an enemy and if you can't win it by winning hearts and minds (which we can't) then win it by force. Thats probably (regrettably) the only thing they understand in their medieval backwardness. And (have no illusions) they would do the same thing with us if they would get the chance.

We shouldn't have been there in the first place but now that we're there let's finish it and make sure they will never forget that lesson that we ought to teach 'em: don't mess with us !

That's so true, these primitive people don't take you serious until you have shown them by force who 's in charge. Otherwise they don't respect you. However this will never occur to the minds of our tame, correct, peace-loving etc, etc, fellow citizens.They think it's possible to deal with them by means of their own moral standards. They don't understand a shit, really.