Catalan autonomy demonstrations

[Loki]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/10588562.stm

[poiuytrewq0987]

Are we seeing the Balkanization of the Iberian peninsula?

[Murphy]

Trolling the Spanish contingent, Loki? Will you become even more spiteful after the Spanish run the Dutch around S.A?

[Loki]

Trolling the Spanish contingent, Loki? Will you become even more spiteful after the Spanish run the Dutch around S.A?

How is posting a fresh news article of importance considered trolling? A million people took to the streets in Barcelona, it's hardly insignificant.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48317000/jpg/_48317480_009780454-1.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48317000/jpg/_48317539_009781337-2.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48317000/jpg/_48317486_009781279-1.jpg

[Murphy]

How is posting a fresh news article of importance considered trolling? A million people took to the streets in Barcelona, it's hardly insignificant.

Adding two and two normally gives four. You've kitted the Apricity out in Dutch colours and now you're posting demonstrations by Spanish-separatists. I say you're trying to rub the nettles into the Spanish contingent.

[Loki]

Adding two and two normally gives four. You've kitted the Apricity out in Dutch colours and now you're posting demonstrations by Spanish-separatists. I say you're trying to rub the nettles into the Spanish contingent.

It's coincidence, I've trawled the BBC website and accidentally stumbled upon this. ;)

And by the way, they're not Spanish separatists, but Calatan separatists. :D

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Adding two and two normally gives four. You've kitted the Apricity out in Dutch colours and now you're posting demonstrations by Spanish-separatists. I say you're trying to rub the nettles into the Spanish contingent.

Catalonia is not Spanish, see the demonstrations.:D

[Murphy]

It's coincidence, I've trawled the BBC website and accidentally stumbled upon this. ;)

Loki.. Loki.. Loki.. Loki.. you are well named :D.


And by the way, they're not Spanish separatists, but Calatan separatists. :D

Doh :P!

[Äike]

http://f.postimees.ee/o/2010/07/11/400283t1h1749.jpg

[Äike]

On a more serious note, Catalonia has a population of 7.5 million and about 1 million took part in that demonstration.

There are less than 1 million Estonians in Estonia, but we are still independent. More people took part in that Catalan demonstration than there's people in some European nations. Catalonia should be independent if so many people want it to be so. Catalonia is economically successful enough to be independent.

[The Lawspeaker]

On a more serious note, Catalonia has a population of 7.5 million and about 1 million took part in that demonstration.

There are less than 1 million Estonians in Estonia, but we are still independent. More people took part in that Catalan demonstration than there's people in some European nations. Catalonia should be independent if so many people want it to be so. Catalonia is economically successful enough to be independent.
I wonder what the existing ties are between "Madrid" and Catalonia. What's still being arranged in Madrid that can be arranged in Barcelona?

Spaniards and Catalans ? Please enlighten me.

[Treffie]

How is posting a fresh news article of importance considered trolling? A million people took to the streets in Barcelona, it's hardly insignificant.



Where's Ibex when we need him? He's a Catalan independentist and I'm sure he'd appreciate you posting this :thumbs up

[Wyn]

Catalonia should be independent if so many people want it to be so.

That's hardly reason to divide a country. Remember for example that when Ireland was divided the majority of the people on the island did not want it, but those in the counties of Antrim, Down and so on did. I doubt the majority of Spain, which would be divided, would want an independent Catalonia.


Catalonia is economically successful enough to be independent.

This could probably be applied to a number of territories across Europe and the world. But this is not a reason for "independence".

[Äike]

That's hardly reason to divide a country. Remember for example that when Ireland was divided the majority of the people on the island did not want it, but those in the counties of Antrim, Down and so on did. I doubt the majority of Spain, which would be divided, would want an independent Catalonia.



This could probably be applied to a number of territories across Europe and the world. But this is not a reason for "independence".

If the Catalans want an independent Catalonia, then no one else should stop them. You're an imperialist, as I see.

The majority of the Russian Empire/Bolsheviks didn't want an independent Estonia in 1918. By your logic, Estonia shouldn't have declared independence, as the majority didn't want it. Well, we did declare independence and had to fight a war on two fronts against the Russians and the Germans.

[Wyn]

If the Catalans want an independent Catalonia, then no one else should stop them.

An independent Catalonia would mean a divided Spain. A divided Spain against the wishes of the majority of Spain's people.


You're an imperialist, as I see.

You see nothing.


The majority of the Russian Empire/Bolsheviks didn't want an independent Estonia in 1918. By your logic, Estonia shouldn't have declared independence, as the majority didn't want it.

Can you demonstrate that the Catalonian's are historically a people completely distinct from the Spanish who have always desired an independent state? To my knowledge, there is no evidence that the majority of Catalonians wish for an independent state. Even if you disregard history, and the history of other nations - where is the evidence that a Catalan majority wants independence? Even the Irish unionists could claim a [combined] majority in the territories they claimed at Partition.

[Äike]

An independent Catalonia would mean a divided Spain. A divided Spain against the wishes of the majority of Spain's people.



You see nothing.



Can you demonstrate that the Catalonian's are historically a people completely distinct from the Spanish who have always desired an independent state? To my knowledge, there is no evidence that the majority of Catalonians wish for an independent state. Even if you disregard history, and the history of other nations - where is the evidence that a Catalan majority wants independence? Even the Irish unionists could claim a [combined] majority in the territories they claimed at Partition.

If there are countries like Austria, then I don't see a reason why Catalans shouldn't be independent. They speak a different language, which is one of the basis of nationality.

[Loki]

An independent Catalonia would mean a divided Spain. A divided Spain against the wishes of the majority of Spain's people.


The opinion of the rest of Spain is irrelevant to that of Catalunya, in the same way that the opinion of the English are irrelevant to that of the Irish. You draw a false analogy from the Irish provinces; you could draw an analogy between Ireland and United Kingdom instead.

[Wyn]

If there are countries like Austria, then I don't see a reason why Catalans shouldn't be independent. They speak a different language, which is one of the basis of nationality.

And yet you cannot demonstrate majority support in Catalonia. You are sitting here supporting an independent Catalonian state without the support of most Catalan people.


The opinion of the rest of Spain is irrelevant to that of Catalunya

Except that A) Catalonia is presently part of Spain and B) the majority of Catalonia's people do not wish for an independent state. The majority of Catalan people obviously do not think the rest of Spain's opinion irrelevant - they wish to be united with them.

[Loki]

Except that A) Catalonia is presently part of Spain


Ireland was once part of the UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland).



and B) the majority of Catalonia's people do not wish for an independent state.

I wouldn't be so sure of that, given than 1 million people are willing to take to the streets in demanding independence/more autonomy.

[Äike]

And yet you cannot demonstrate majority support in Catalonia. You are sitting here supporting an independent Catalonian state without the support of most Catalan people.

http://f.postimees.ee/o/2010/07/11/400283t1h1749.jpg

http://f.postimees.ee/o/2010/07/11/400277t1h3691.jpg

http://f.postimees.ee/o/2010/07/11/400273t1h66d0.jpg

http://f.postimees.ee/o/2010/07/11/400280t1hec61.jpg

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/07/11/400278t41hf024.jpg

http://f.postimees.ee/o/2010/07/11/400279t1h0570.jpg

http://f.postimees.ee/o/2010/07/11/400281t1h87c6.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Perhaps we will see a Spanish version of the United Kingdom to prevent it from heavily Balkanizating like the Balkans post-Yugoslavia?

[Murphy]

The relationship between Ireland and the United Kingdom is in no way comparable to that that has existed between Catalonia and the other Spanish regions.

Dios, Patria, Fueros, Rey! Spain has historically worked to this motto adopted by the Carlist movements. Spain did not march into Catalonia with soldiers, to shoot young men dead in the streets and in their homes, Spain did not march in with economic restrictions to keep Catalonia weak so as it would not supersede her.

Anyway, in a survery in 2009, only 16% of the Catalan people supported independence.. the majority do not want independence from Spain, only a Communist minority.

[Äike]

The relationship between Ireland and the United Kingdom is in no way comparable to that that has existed between Catalonia and the other Spanish regions.

Dios, Patria, Fueros, Rey! Spain has historically worked to this motto adopted by the Carlist movements. Spain did not march into Catalonia with soldiers, to shoot young men dead in the streets and in their homes, Spain did not march in with economic restrictions to keep Catalonia weak so as it would not supersede her.

Anyway, in a survery in 2009, only 16% of the Catalan people supported independence.. the majority do not want independence from Spain, only a Communist minority.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Paisos_catalans_belfast.jpg

[Murphy]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Paisos_catalans_belfast.jpg

And? I know many Irish Republicans today support Basque- and Catalan-separatism..

[Wyn]

Loki: Demonstrate that the majority of Catalan's wish for an independent state.

Põhjamaalane: You do the same. Combine your efforts if you wish. Pretty pictures do not prove a majority, no matter how big they are and how many of them you post.

Assuming JP's statistic is correct, you are both supporting the creation of a state that exists against the wishes of 84% of it's people.

[Loki]

Loki: Demonstrate that the majority of Catalan's wish for an independent state.


I cannot do that obviously since I'm not psychic, but perhaps there should be a referendum to clear the matter once and for all.

[Oinakos Growion]

Demonstrate that the majority of Catalan's wish for an independent state
There's a very easy way to do that: a referendum.

That's what Catalans (and Basques and Galicians) have been asking for. At least the possibility of the current "regional" parliaments to organise a referendum if a political majority in such parliaments agrees. In other words, the option to vote and the guarantee that Madrid will accept the results. You can call it opting for self-determination; in legal terms it'd "only" be like adding an extra clause in the current Statutes of Autonomy operational in those territories.
Any other than that will only piss off people more and more, on all sides.

But hey, Madrid says "no"... If there ever is "problems" we'll know who to blame, because the Catalans (and Galicians incidentally) have been quite peaceful and reasonable for decades in their claims for greater autonomy, independence, etc.

As some Catalan politician once said: "Who is afraid of democracy? Let's vote!" ;)

[Oinakos Growion]

The relationship between Ireland and the United Kingdom is in no way comparable to that that has existed between Catalonia and the other Spanish regions
Of course it is. Although as a matter of fact Catalonia has always identified itself with the Netherlands, starting with the Spanish wars in Flanders and so on.
The Catalans see themselves as the "Mediterranean Dutch" and both nations do actually get along well at many levels (trade, business partnerships, etc, even football!).


Spain did not march into Catalonia with soldiers, to shoot young men dead in the streets and in their homes
Speaking of what...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_catalonia#The_Reapers.27_War
or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reapers%27_War
Or ask the Catalans what they think about the Spanish Civil War (1936-39)... They have a quite insightful vision about it.


Spain did not march in with economic restrictions to keep Catalonia weak so as it would not supersede her
Economic progress in Catalonia has always been linked to the "Catalanist" movement. Spain has traditionally tried to oversee such progress in case it'd be used to "fund" the nationalist ideas, but failed to see it was all part of a wider feedback system.


do not want independence from Spain, only a Communist minority
I'm afraid it's not that easy.
The main difference between Catalonia, the Basque Country and Galicia is the predominance of Catholic conservatives among the nationalist ranks in the first two cases, basically because nationalism in Catalonia and Basque Country found unconditional support in the new capitalist elites arising during the industrial revolution. In Galicia we didn't really have an industrial development until the 1950s/1960s, so the grassroots/left-wing/agrarian-rural parties took the lead in the national claims before that.
The "openly" or more "aggressive" independentist parties in Catalonia are mostly left-wing (not simply Communist), but many other right-wing/conservative parties sympathize with the idea too. In fact, CiU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_and_Union), the coalition in government for many years in the past, openly support the right of self-determination and they are a classical Christian-democrat party (strongly Catholic as a matter of fact).

Yesterday's demonstration was supported by the Catalan Socialist Party, a branch of the Spanish Socialist Party. Mildly left wing, but theoretically pro-Spanish... and yet the president led the march... As you can see politics down there are very complex and full of gray areas.
A lot has happened since the Carlist times ;)

[Tingl Tangl]

Catalonia must be given opportunity to vote for independence.

[Murphy]

Oinakos, I will address your post tomorrow. I am too elated to deal with it right now. I would just like to point out the actual attendance at this rally was in the 50,000s.. no where near one million. More people attended the Orange Walk in Glasgow last week..

[Óttar]

The guys have the same colours in their flags. Not that Britain is France, but how much of this is merely provocateurism? Next thing Galiza, Andalusia and Asturias will bust out.

[Osweo]

Why are they dirtying their nice old flag with that damned Bolshevik star? Says it all, really... :rolleyes: I hear the independentists are very handy at embracing African immigrants and the like. Great way to reverse the Reconquista. :(

[Ibericus]

The guys have the same colours in their flags. Not that Britain is France, but how much of this is merely provocateurism? Next thing Galiza, Andalusia and Asturias will bust out.

The Catalan flag is one of the oldest in Europe, and older than the spanish flag

[Oinakos Growion]

I would just like to point out the actual attendance at this rally was in the 50,000s..
There are different sources on that, as there always are. The 1.1 million figure was given by local police. Others say around 500,000.
And re-check the videos and pics. I know those streets and squares personally, and there's no way to fill them all up with just 50,000 ;) Also because I've been to a few 50,000 demonstrations and it was smaller than that.
I know the place: independentism is not marginal in Catalonia, whatever people from outside may wish to think. It is real, it is big and it has to be dealt with, one way or the other. Ignoring it (as the Spanish government likes to do) will only increase problems.


Why are they dirtying their nice old flag with that damned Bolshevik star?
Catalan flag with a red star: Left-wing independentisthttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_suD1pzsRnwE/SMe74L2tlLI/AAAAAAAABU8/KfcDbB0hehw/s400/401px-Bandera_Estelada_svg.png

Catalan flag with white star (on blue background): Right-wing/Conservative/Catholic independentist.
http://www.leonardofialho.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/estelada-como-bandera-de-cuba.png

Quite often both flags appear side by side in demonstrations, exemplifying that patriotism is above party differences. Independentists over there tend to think that step number one is to achieve independence, and then decide (in elections) what kind of government they'll like in an independent country (traditionally centre-right wing).

[Osweo]

Catalan flag with a red star: Left-wing independentisthttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_suD1pzsRnwE/SMe74L2tlLI/AAAAAAAABU8/KfcDbB0hehw/s400/401px-Bandera_Estelada_svg.png

Catalan flag with white star (on blue background): Right-wing/Conservative/Catholic independentist.
http://www.leonardofialho.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/estelada-como-bandera-de-cuba.png

God, what a 'choice'! :eek: USA vs. USSR! It ought to be a crime to mess with a flag like that! :p Already is, from an aesthetics point of view! :eek:

[Matritensis]

The truth is that there are many separatists in Catalonia.No less true is the fact that a much bigger number of Catalans don't want the full independence.Now somebody answer this for my enlightenment:why some Catalans feel that they don't have anything to do with Spain as a whole,and why other Catalans(I'm talking about Catalans with pure Catalan surnames too) feel that they are Spanish also? And why a minority of independentists has the right to impose their will against the majority?

[Oinakos Growion]

Oh yeah. It does look like crap with the stars :D Actually, the one with the white star on blue background is simply awful, even worse than the other, which is also bad enough (aesthetically).
But those flags are only used at demonstrations and so on. The only official flag was, is, and will be the "classic" one, called La Senyera.
http://hispaniainfo.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/senyera.jpg

[Oinakos Growion]

why other Catalans(I'm talking about Catalans with pure Catalan surnames too) feel that they are Spanish also? And why a minority of independentists has the right to impose their will against the majority?
Or why some "new Catalans" (of Spanish ancestry with Castilian/Andalusian surnames) feel fiercely pro-independentism or...
And the majority/minority issue can only be addressed with a referendum. Anything else is only guessing and using variable statistics.
The issue remains: it is something that has to be dealt with, and not only in Catalonia. If Spain as a viable state is to survive it needs to take a look at itself and reorganise itself (reform of the Constitution anyone? Federal State maybe?), otherwise it'll end up as usual: whacking and distrusting each other.

[Loki]

The truth is that there are many separatists in Catalonia.No less true is the fact that a much bigger number of Catalans don't want the full independence.Now somebody answer this for my enlightenment:why some Catalans feel that they don't have anything to do with Spain as a whole,and why other Catalans(I'm talking about Catalans with pure Catalan surnames too) feel that they are Spanish also? And why a minority of independentists has the right to impose their will against the majority?

It's always like this, the true patriots are in the minority. Hence why we have these kinds of governments all over Europe ... without spine.

[Osweo]

The truth is that there are many separatists in Catalonia.No less true is the fact that a much bigger number of Catalans don't want the full independence.Now somebody answer this for my enlightenment:why some Catalans feel that they don't have anything to do with Spain as a whole,and why other Catalans(I'm talking about Catalans with pure Catalan surnames too) feel that they are Spanish also? And why a minority of independentists has the right to impose their will against the majority?

You've just described Ireland in 1914... :cry2 I'd hate for your nutters to push things the way they went there. :(

[Óttar]

When are the gallegos going to break out next? Viva Espanha Verde. :thumbs up
http://www.flags-and-anthems.com/images/flags/flag-galicia-wehende-flagge-60x90.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Galician_flag.svg/600px-Galician_flag.svg.png

[Lulletje Rozewater]

I am biased.
South Africa has the same struggle.
I found this article

1000 reasons


THANKS TO THE SPANISH INTOLERANCE WE HAVE FINALLY ONLY TWO CLEAR OPTIONS, WE EITHER ACCEPT TO BECOME SWALLOWED BY SPAIN OR WE CHOOSE FOR INDEPENDENCE

The story of the actual Catalan constitutional law (Estatut) is long. It all started in 2004. The former Catalan government felt the need to create a new constitutional law of Catalonia (Estatut), in which Catalans would describe how they want their country to be and what they want for their country.
The essential problem here is that Spain sees Catalonia as a mere region, not as a country. They will say just like any other region, in reality they see it a region to endlessly punish. Spain does not want Catalonia to be any different, neither to have any differences. They want to decide in what way Catalonia is being treated different, and they do not want us to decide, they decide.
read on below

http://independentcatalonia.blogspot.com/

[Matritensis]

The essential problem here is that Spain sees Catalonia as a mere region, not as a country. They will say just like any other region, in reality they see it a region to endlessly punish. Spain does not want Catalonia to be any different, neither to have any differences. They want to decide in what way Catalonia is being treated different, and they do not want us to decide, they decide.

Of course Spain doesn't see Catalonia as a country,it never was! Catalonia was part of the kingdom of Aragón,which became politically linked with Castilla with the marriage of the so called Catholic Kings (Isabel of Castile and Fernando of Aragon) in 1469.Both parts kept their laws and their uses even after Charles I adopted the title of "Rey de las Españas(in plural,for all the smart asses here) y de las Indias".Philip V put an end to the existence of Aragon as an autonomous entity in 1716.So if the nationalists want for some reason to go back to XV century or before (when Aragón was truly independent) they better build a time machine.I also think that it would be cool to speak some form of Celtiberian,but the Romans came and killed the chances for ever...damn! I'll start my own movement! Celtiberia is not Hispania!

[Oinakos Growion]

It's all a question of where the seat of the crown and the nobility had its backbone, not the formal name of the kingdom. For example, for centuries Galicia formally used the name of "Kingdom of Leon" because the king would be based there since that was the "frontline", even if the Kingdom of Galicia was a separate entity and the king was born and raised in Galicia (and a Galician speaker by the way). Eventually the Kingdom of Leon broke away and so on, but that's a different story. I'm just using this as a quick example.
Catalonia wasn't an "independent kingdom" in a formal way as we understand it today, but the real power (i.e. money and troops) of the Kingdom of Aragon came from there; centres of power shift a lot within the territories embraced by a single crown.
For example, that's why the royal archives of the Kingdom of Aragon were transferred to Barcelona and are still there after the "union" with Castile. "Little facts" like that give away the geopolitics of the time ;)


When are the gallegos going to break out next? Viva Espanha Verde
It's all part of the same process in trying to re-organise "Spain"...
I grew up hearing that "anything is possible with dialogue and democracy". Some have been talking and voting and waiting for a long time now... ;)
Then again, the situation in Galicia is completely different to Catalonia - same applies to the Basques. The three cases have very different characteristics and, in political terms, the Galician case might be the most complicated of them all because party loyalties work in a completely different way to the rest of the State; the three major parties operating there are full of grey areas and often overlap.

[Comte Arnau]

That's hardly reason to divide a country.

I'd rather say there's hardly a reason to keep being part of the Spanish Kingdom. Specially after the recent events that have set once and for all where the roof for autonomy is.


I doubt the majority of Spain, which would be divided, would want an independent Catalonia.

The opinion of one from Salamanca about the Catalan nation matters as much to me as that of someone from Birmingham. The difference is that the latter's will be more neutral, while Spaniards have developed a rooted Catalanophobia greatly due to the media. I know no country in the world where a party has campaigned all over the country collecting signatures against a part of "their" country.



An independent Catalonia would mean a divided Spain.

No. It would actually mean a more coherent Spain. When it is 'free' from the non-Spanish nations within the Kingdom, Spain will be more Spain than ever, and their nationalism won't have to be anti-Catalan or anti-Basque, and they won't have to sing stupid songs like Yo soy español in order to reaffirm themselves as a nation. They really will be one then. But as long as it doesn't happen, Spanish nationalism consists of provoking the non-Castilian nations.


Can you demonstrate that the Catalonian's are historically a people completely distinct from the Spanish

Spanish, in terms of nation, means Castilian, as anyone who is neutral and has some knowledge of history knows, and recent events have proven it more than ever. Yes, Catalonians have been for more than a million years a people completely distinct from the Spanish (and from the French, I must add, although northern Catalans are almost completely Frenchified now). Three hundred years haven't been enough to Castilianize Catalonia, because the will to be is still strong, luckily and in spite of old and new massive immigrations.


And yet you cannot demonstrate majority support in Catalonia.

How can you, when referendums are not even allowed! The real fact is that the nationalist party CiU has always been the one most voted in Catalonia, even if they try to be ambiguous regarding their pro-independence aspirations. Recent surveys say pro-independence feeling have raised to more than 37%, without including the big portion of people who remains undecided. It is impossible either for you or for me to know how people would react if a referendum was possible. But the fact is, it isn't.


Except that A) Catalonia is presently part of Spain

And of France.


Perhaps we will see a Spanish version of the United Kingdom to prevent it from heavily Balkanizating like the Balkans post-Yugoslavia?

No. The recent events, with a reform of the Catalan Statute being trimmed by a politicized outdated Court, have indicated how far can Spain accept non-Castilian nations within its Holy Unchangeable Constitution. There's only two possibilities left: resign oneself to gradual Castilianization or decide once and for all to step forward onto a state of one's own.


Spain did not march into Catalonia with soldiers, to shoot young men dead in the streets and in their homes, Spain did not march in with economic restrictions to keep Catalonia weak so as it would not supersede her.

Lol. Your knowledge about our history is close to zero.


Anyway, in a survery in 2009, only 16% of the Catalan people supported independence.. the majority do not want independence from Spain, only a Communist minority.

Mention the source.



Yesterday's demonstration was supported by the Catalan Socialist Party, a branch of the Spanish Socialist Party. Mildly left wing, but theoretically pro-Spanish... and yet the president led the march... As you can see politics down there are very complex and full of gray areas.

It must be said, though, that the call didn't stem from politicians, even if they all summoned people to attend the demo. It was a call from the civil society, mainly from the most important cultural organization. It tried to show an image of unity, that is why the motto was clear but not pro-independence: We Are a Nation. We Decide. Even so, the politicians from the two pro-Spanish parties, minoritarian in Catalonia, didn't come.


I would just like to point out the actual attendance at this rally was in the 50,000s.. no where near one million.

That stupid ridiculous number, used by biased right-wing Spanish media, comes from an agency which made weird calculations based on pictures from the air that didn't cover the whole of the streets with people and taken at an hour, 20.30, when the demonstration had ended and most people had already left. So go figure.

I was there, and there were by large more people than in the demonstrations for Autonomy of 1977 and the No to War of 2003. Numbers aside, it's been the largest ever in Catalonia. Had it happened elsewhere, many news would have opened with it.


The guys have the same colours in their flags. Not that Britain is France, but how much of this is merely provocateurism?

We are not to blame if the Spaniards copied our flag, which may be the oldest in Europe.


Why are they dirtying their nice old flag with that damned Bolshevik star?

All the stars have their story, but to most people, a star in one's flag has come to meant 'pro-independence' feeling. The presence of these flags mean the goal has not been achieved yet.


Now somebody answer this for my enlightenment:why some Catalans feel that they don't have anything to do with Spain as a whole,and why other Catalans(I'm talking about Catalans with pure Catalan surnames too) feel that they are Spanish also? And why a minority of independentists has the right to impose their will against the majority?

The only ones with the right to impose something so far are the Spanish State and the Holy Constitution, which don't allow Catalans, from one ideology or the other, to say what they think about that.


Of course Spain doesn't see Catalonia as a country,it never was! Catalonia was part of the kingdom of Aragón

False. Catalonia was part of the CROWN of Aragon. I'm sure you can tell the difference. Division of laws, power and customs. Two nations united by a king. You're playing with names, actually, and you know it. The name is due to historical/monarchical reasons, but the demographic/economic weight always was on Catalonia, and the important language in the Crown was Catalan, not Aragonese, as were the kings. Aragon (and Aragonese by extension) basically meant Catalan in the way Spanish means Castilian nowadays.


which became politically linked with Castilla with the marriage of the so called Catholic Kings (Isabel of Castile and Fernando of Aragon) in 1469.Both parts kept their laws and their uses even after Charles I adopted the title of "Rey de las Españas(in plural,for all the smart asses here) y de las Indias".

Indeed. Castile and Aragon continued to be two different countries, united by a King. The difference is that, instead of calling it The United Kingdom of Castile, Aragon and Navarre, they decided to call it The Spains. Quite significant.


Philip V put an end to the existence of Aragon as an autonomous entity in 1716.So if the nationalists want for some reason to go back to XV century or before (when Aragón was truly independent) they better build a time machine.

15th century? No. Beginning of the 18th century. Aragon and Catalonia began more than 1,000 years ago. 300 years of Castilian conquest (Bourbonic troops entering by force and abolishing one's laws cannot be called a 'union') are not that long a period, although it is true that Aragon has already become a Castilian province, while in Catalonia the will to be remains strong. Yet Catalonia could become another Aragon if this doesn't change in the near future.


I also think that it would be cool to speak some form of Celtiberian,but the Romans came and killed the chances for ever...damn! I'll start my own movement! Celtiberia is not Hispania!

That's a very lame comparison, because those ethnolinguistic groups don't exist any more since the Roman conquest. The Iberian nations -with exception of the Basques- start around the 8th century. Which is different from nationalism as an ideology, a much more recent thing.

[Amapola]

It was nice to see so many Spanish flags in Catalonia last night :D

[Comte Arnau]

It was nice to see so many Spanish flags in Catalonia last night :D

Frankly, it was nicer to see Puyol and Xavi celebrating the triumph with their real flag. :p

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs223.snc4/38470_419534833187_818113187_4485677_7153167_n.jpg

[Amapola]

Frankly, it was nicer to see Puyol and Xavi celebrating the triumph with their real flag. :p

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs223.snc4/38470_419534833187_818113187_4485677_7153167_n.jpg

One of them, indeed :thumb001:

http://www.ircchat.es/img/espana-con-banderas.gif

[Amapola]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs026.ash2/34678_1443473940918_1655215767_1099442_2893374_n.j pg
Glup! :) Voila Catalonia.

[Amapola]

How is posting a fresh news article of importance considered trolling? A million people took to the streets in Barcelona, it's hardly insignificant.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48317000/jpg/_48317480_009780454-1.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48317000/jpg/_48317539_009781337-2.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48317000/jpg/_48317486_009781279-1.jpg


The measuring the the Lynce company entrusted for the occasion by EFE disagrees though and minimizes the attendance to a max of 56.000 people. Lynce took 175 aerial photographs of high resolution at different times as well as measuring of area and density. However the city council of Barcelona castles the official number of the Guardia Urbana (1. 100. 000) and explains they used "the usual methods" ... What the heck?! :confused:

The Paseo de Gracia has 75 000 square meters. The density of a demo is usually calculated in a scale that ranges from 1 -4 person a square metre, which would result in 75 000 ..


Lynce: "We don't have an ideology we just do sociology, period.".

As we say, "papel mojado"... a matter of opinion and salaries.

[Hussar]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs026.ash2/34678_1443473940918_1655215767_1099442_2893374_n.j pg
Glup! :) Voila Catalonia.



Ahhhh......Alana. I can't stand you (sorry).

You sound EXACTLY like those italian nationalist who want the absolute untouchable unity of Italy (although the clear ethnic heterogeneity in it).

you = hyper traditional spanish nationalist :cool:;)

[Äike]

Spain is one of the last empires in Europe. I am a supporter of nation states and thus support the independence of Catalans and the Basques.

[Amapola]

Ahhhh......Alana. I can't stand you (sorry).

You sound EXACTLY like those italian nationalist who want the absolute untouchable unity of Italy (although the clear ethnic heterogeneity in it).

you = hyper traditional spanish nationalist :cool:;)

You don't have to apologize... for not standing me because it was not me who took those flags there certainly but themselves.

If you would have written a couple more of adjectives after my name you would sound more credible... the honest truth is that calling a self-proclaimed anti liberal person nationalist doesn't make you sound very witty, (let alone the national/tradional connection)...

[Amapola]

Spain is one of the last empires in Europe. I am a supporter of nation states and thus support the independence of Catalans and the Basques.

How many Empires are there in Europe? :confused: and actually Spain was the first of the biggest "modern" empires to fall..

and how being a supporter of nation states make you a supporter of just YOUR particular and chosen nation states?

[Amapola]

Are we seeing the Balkanization of the Iberian peninsula?

Not really... although it's not political correct to say this: thanks to the Catholic Monarchs, Isabel and Fernando.

[Hussar]

If you would have written a couple more of adjectives after my name you would sound more credible... the honest truth is that calling a self-proclaimed anti liberal person nationalist doesn't make you sound very witty.


Ooooh...come on. There are more modern ways to be nationalists ; the point is that you're a quite banal and anachronistic nationalist.

Now i've added enough adjectives to be witty ? :cool:

[Äike]

How many Empires are there in Europe? :confused: and actually Spain was the first of the biggest "modern" empires to fall..

and how being a supporter of nation states make you a supporter of just YOUR particular and chosen nation states?

Even without the colonial areas, Spain is a empire, just like Russia. In Spain, there's the Autonomous Community of Catalonia, in Russia there's the Komi Republic, the Udmurt republic etc. Both countries rule several ethnicities and thus are the opposite of nation states.

[Furlan]

There is a rather simple way to solve the question: a referendum held under international control...
That's all...

I support the catalan nationalism but sincerly I don't know if the YES will really have the majority :mmmm::mmmm:

[Amapola]

Ooooh...come on. There are more modern ways to be nationalists ; the point is that you're a quite banal and anachronistic nationalist.

Now i've added enough adjectives to be witty ? :cool:

There is an only way to be nationalist: believing in the liberal and modern concepts of nation, which I don't.

Don't really waste your time trying to describe banalities (me) then, just like I do. Saving this first point, you are determined to show your ignorance on common and basic terminology, up to you. But then I still doubt you know what anachronism is... I figure out that you really mean "old-fashioned". In that figurative suposition, and the only one, you are certainly right.

[Amapola]

Even without the colonial areas, Spain is a empire, just like Russia. In Spain, there's the Autonomous Community of Catalonia, in Russia there's the Komi Republic, the Udmurt republic etc. Both countries rule several ethnicities and thus are the opposite of nation states.

First, Spain never had colonies, just extensions.
Second, under your logic, Iberian diversity would have made any legal supra-entity (whatever may be) in the peninsula an empire since inmemorial times. Your concept of empire is funny and your knowledge of Spain zero.

[Hussar]

There is an only way to be nationalist: believing in the liberal and modern concepts of nation, which I don't.



just ONE way to be something. To do something. Typical atitude of blind and obtuse factions.




............ you are determined to show your ignorance on common and basic terminology, up to you........... But then I still doubt you know what anachronism is... I figure out that you really mean "old-fashioned". In that figurative suposition, and the only one, you are certainly right.


"my ignorance"....."basic terminology"......"i doubt"......"figurative suposition".... :rolleyes:


But are YOU really aware of the meaning of the terms you use ? I'm not going to engage virtual battles with a spanish person who lives at 2000 km about terminology or definitions of anything.
I'm at almost at doctoral level in modern history. So you aren't in the condition to say anything (i apologize. Again. Although i shouldn't)

It's better if we conclude here the episode. Stop.

[Hussar]

First, Spain never had colonies, just extensions.



Nice one ! This is YOUR point of view. A strongly spanish-imperialist point of view.

[Äike]

First, Spain never had colonies, just extensions.
Under your logic, Iberian diversity would have made any legal supra-entity (whatever may be) in the peninsula an empire since immemorial times. Your knowledge of empire is funny and your knowledge of Spain zero.

Yes, my knowledge of Spain isn't on a very high level, but I still think that Spain is an empire.

Imagine Scandinavia as a single country, ruled by the Swedes. It would have the autonomous districts of Norway and Denmark. Just like Spain has an Autonomous community of Catalonia.

That's how I see Spain, a single country with different ethnicities, which don't differ that much from the rest, but should still be independent.

[Hussar]

That's how I see Spain, a single country with different ethnicities, which don't differ that much from the rest, but should still be independent.



Exactly

[Amapola]

But are YOU really aware of the meaning of the terms you use ? I'm not going to engage virtual battles with a spanish person who lives at 2000 km about terminology or definitions of anything.
I'm at almost at doctoral level in modern history. So you aren't in the condition to say anything (i apologize. Again. Although i shouldn't)

It's better if we conclude here the episode. Stop.

Congratulations, I always thought that people bringing "degrees" to stage in a conversation is disapointting.

No, you don't have to.. I told you before... nor I do need it.

[Amapola]

Nice one ! This is YOUR point of view. A strongly spanish-imperialist point of view.
Google virreinato.

[The Lawspeaker]

You know. I actually wonder. What's the exact legal situation regarding the minorities in Spain at the moment ? Is it comparable to the United Kingdom or?

[Amapola]

Yes, my knowledge of Spain isn't on a very high level, but I still think that Spain is an empire.

Imagine Scandinavia as a single country, ruled by the Swedes. It would have the autonomous districts of Norway and Denmark. Just like Spain has an Autonomous community of Catalonia.

That's how I see Spain, a single country with different ethnicities, which don't differ that much from the rest, but should still be independent.

Tell me how Spain born, tell me about our kings, our relations, our languages, our idiosyncracy, our Reconquist, our local codes tell me what was our union and identity after 711... Tell what was written in our Medieval literature and what names were used to refer to Spain. Tell me what was written in the chronicles, in letters and in books about the general feeling of peninsular people through our history. Tell me about out resettlements all around the peninsula: people coming from north to South and vice versa...
And perhaps.. if I don't see you mixing modern liberlaoid rubbish which are not applicable to explain our history nor represent it , we will start speaking, and I will respect your opinion about our situation as a nation right now.

[Groenewolf]

Yes, my knowledge of Spain isn't on a very high level, but I still think that Spain is an empire.

My knowledge about Spain is equally limited. But I think the different groups that make up Spain have a lot of common history. Maybe it could be compared to the Netherlands-Frisian situation.

[Hussar]

Congratulations, I always thought that people bringing "degrees" to stage in a conversation is disapointting.......


Of course. I agree. If someone mentions his "degrees" is surely disapponting (especially when you lack degrees).

[The Lawspeaker]

My knowledge about Spain is equally limited. But I think the different groups that make up Spain have a lot of common history. Maybe it could be compared to the Netherlands-Frisian situation.

Well not too long ago our own Dutch attitudes towards Frisian were just as uneducated as the Spanish were towards the Basques and the Catalans. Just think about Kneppelfreed in 1951 where the journalist Schurer was put on trial for a commentary he had written about a judge that had refused to listen to someone that had put up a defense plea in Frisian because he couldn't speak Dutch very well.

This new courtcase against the journalist ended in riots that shocked the nation and led to the present situation in which Frisian and Dutch are equal before the law in Frisia.

[RoyBatty]

I've never been able to understand what these separatist movements (not only in Spain but other parts of Europe) are all about.

If the Catalan separatists' aim was to separate from both Spain AND the EU then I could sort of understand it but if the idea was to separate from Spain whilst remaining in the EU it makes no sense at all.

I mean, why bother? What "difference" would it make? What's the point having a watered down little territory which isn't really able to properly take care of its national defense, has little influence and negotiating powers and so on?

[Ibericus]

I've never been able to understand what these separatist movements (not only in Spain but other parts of Europe) are all about.

If the Catalan separatists' aim was to separate from both Spain AND the EU then I could sort of understand it but if the idea was to separate from Spain whilst remaining in the EU it makes no sense at all.

I mean, why bother? What "difference" would it make? What's the point having a watered down little territory which isn't really able to properly take care of its national defense, has little influence and negotiating powers and so on?

Yes, in a time where there aren't borders, only an international global market. But the answer is : Power. The separatist politicians want their own state so they have all the Cake for them, and not just a portion like now.

[Äike]

Tell me how Spain born, tell me about our kings, our relations, our languages, our idiosyncracy, our Reconquist, our local codes tell me what was our union and identity after 711... Tell what was written in our Medieval literature and what names were used to refer to Spain. Tell me what was written in the chronicles, in letters and in books about the general feeling of peninsular people through our history. Tell me about out resettlements all around the peninsula: people coming from north to South and vice versa...
And perhaps.. if I don't see you mixing modern liberlaoid rubbish which are not applicable to explain our history nor represent it , we will start speaking, and I will respect your opinion about our situation as a nation right now.

As I said, I don't know that much about SW-Europe, but Spain is an empire by the classical definition. You can't argue that in any possible way.

Empire:

lands ruled by single authority: a group of nations, territories, or peoples ruled by a single authority.


Sorry, but as the European Preservationist I am, I support nation states. It doesn't matter how big the population is, they still deserve the right to rule themselves.

Imperialist doesn't equal nationalist, thus you're not a nationalist.

[Oinakos Growion]

I am a supporter of nation states and thus support the independence of Catalans and the Basques.
And not the Galicians? :cry2

:D

[Oinakos Growion]

Tell me how Spain born, tell me about our kings, our relations, our languages, our idiosyncracy, our Reconquist, our local codes tell me what was our union and identity after 711... Tell what was written in our Medieval literature and what names were used to refer to Spain. Tell me what was written in the chronicles, in letters and in books about the general feeling of peninsular people through our history. Tell me about out resettlements all around the peninsula: people coming from north to South and vice versa...
I could. But it wouldn't be pretty... :D

On a more serious note... Spain (read Castile) had an imperial drive from birth. It was the whole point of that kingdom: expand, defeat the Muslims, occupy the land where other Iberian Kingdoms were locked. As a matter of fact it was a policy designed in the other kingdoms and supported by them, but which in time went against them, because after the Moors they tried to take over the rest of Iberian Kingdoms; fair enough some would say, after all they were on a roll (no wonder the old name of the Peninsula, Hispania, was eventually applied to "their" country). However that plan failed when they couldn't conquer Portugal (in fact a split of the Galician Kingdom); they tried twice and at some stage they had to chose between focusing on Catalonia or Portugal, they went for Catalonia.
That imperial drive and the competition with Portugal actually made the overseas empire flourish. Make no mistake, Castile would not have embarked in that "mad" plan Columbus had if it wasn't for Portuguese navigators taking all positions in the known world, from Greenland to Asia. Oh yeah, and the fact that the Kingdom of Aragon was the recognised intermediary in Europe. And so on and on and on.
There actually is a logic in the traditional nationalist Spanish mentality (not that I'm defending it mind you, just saying that there is one). It is based on the "good old days", but some can't see that those days are gone and that now the world works in a different way. Some also fail to see that some of their closer neighbours, colonized or not, did/do not really trust them... for all of the above... We have a saying in Galicia (in Portugal they say the same): "De Espanha/Castela nem bom vento nem bom casamento" (No good wind or marriage can come from Spain/Castile). Folklore sometimes expresses a lot, hehe. It's just an example, but you get the idea.
In the 20thC this eventually derived into a Civil War and a long dictatorship. The 21stC has begun with cries to sit down and discuss things over again in a calmly and civilized way but nobody is listening (hell! I'd love to see that happening!).
Draw your own conclusions.

[antonio]

A topic too much heavy to be treated on Summer. But I can't help from asserting one consideration: if tomorrow morning Catalonia gov proclaimed the independence and Spanish gov (commiting o.c. high treason) agree with it. Many of the yesterday's demostrators would feel such a void inside their souls which would really compromise them to carry on with their own lifes.:(

Pd. In fact many of them they dont care a shit about Europe, ethnics, culture, etc...to the point they're OK with massive inmigration as long as they speak Catalan, support Barça and dogmatically recognized the "national reality of Catalonia". :D

[Oinakos Growion]

if tomorrow morning Catalonia gov proclaimed the independence and Spanish gov (commiting o.c. high treason) agree with it. Many of the yesterday's demostrators would feel such a void inside their souls which would really compromise them to carry on with their own lifes
So people voting in a referendum would vote without seriously meditating their vote... I see :)
In any case, only a psychic would know that :p
It's possible to understand - in an intellectual way - what a person who believes the opposite you do thinks. As a matter of fact, it is necessary in any discussion so you know where the other person is coming from and getting at. But it is quite hard to know what he/she feels ;)


Pd. In fact many of them they dont care a shit about Europe, ethnics, culture, etc...to the point they're OK with massive inmigration as long as they speak Catalan,
In Catalan society language is seen as the prime means of social integration. It's something like No language=no chance whatsoever of progressing within that society. It's step 1 and symbolically the most important; not the only one, but the necessary and required one to start with before anything else.
In other places you'd be ok with learning the language while you do other stuff. Not there. Hence why they insist so much.
It's just the way their culture works in that aspect.

[Comte Arnau]

Maybe it could be compared to the Netherlands-Frisian situation.

IMO, the nationalist and pro-independence feelings in Catalonia and the Basque Country are much bigger than in Frisia. Maybe it could be rather compared with Galicia, but Oinakos will know better.


I've never been able to understand what these separatist movements (not only in Spain but other parts of Europe) are all about.

If the Catalan separatists' aim was to separate from both Spain AND the EU then I could sort of understand it but if the idea was to separate from Spain whilst remaining in the EU it makes no sense at all.

I mean, why bother? What "difference" would it make? What's the point having a watered down little territory which isn't really able to properly take care of its national defense, has little influence and negotiating powers and so on?

The point is clear: the will to be. Borders may not exist, but to the eyes of the world things still work at a state level, and you don't exist as a nation otherwise. I don't want Madrid to talk on behalf of my nation at an international level. I don't want a bunch of politicized people to decide whether we are a nation or not, when my people has set it clear. I don't want our taxes to be perpetually going elsewhere, regardless of any fiscal effort, just because the State decides in virtue of a strange idea of solidarity. I don't want Barcelona to be constantly associated by tourists with things that are not Catalan, as if this was Seville. And I want my grandchildren to enjoy the world in the language I speak.


So people voting in a referendum would vote without seriously meditating their vote... I see :)

Spaniards view of the Catalans is always either hateful or paternalistic. But one can always dress as a Castilian, hacerse perdonar and become a 'good Catalan'. Many Catalans working in Madrid end up doing that.


In Catalan society language is seen as the prime means of social integration. It's something like No language=no chance whatsoever of progressing within that society. It's step 1 and symbolically the most important; not the only one, but the necessary and required one to start with before anything else.

You're very right there. The language for us is as important as religion is for the Jews. The day we cease to speak it, we shall not be Catalans any longer, just Catalonian Spaniards.

Some politicians in History understood that the 'Catalan problem' is actually quite easy: if you don't touch the language and the pocket of the Catalans, this people is quite conformist. Modern politicians have failed to see this and they keep on strangling the once powerful Catalan economy and wishing neverendingly to Castilianize Catalonia. And this is why pro-independence feeling has been lately clearly on the rise.

[Ibericus]

I don't want Barcelona to be constantly associated by tourists with things that are not Catalan, as if this was Seville. And I want my grandchildren to enjoy the world in the language I speak.
I agree with this.

[perikolez]

For the basque or catalonian separatists being part of European Union is a secondary thing. If European Union dont acept them as independent countries, then they will not be part of European Union. In Spain everybody see European Union only as economic union , not as a national union . Nobody wants a european national football or basketball team. European countries will exist forever.

The only reason to get independence at least for basques is to mantain our culture. If we are part of Spain , our culture will disapear. Basques are actually a minority in our own territory because we have been part of Spain. On the other hand , Spain is in a suicidal tendence of "multiculturalism". Spanish government has allowed the masive inmigration of 7 millions of latinamericans, magrebians ,romanians or chineses that will finish with local cultures and ethnics.

Finally , only for scaping from the Borbons , PP-PSOE dictature, and spaniard false topics(flamenco, bullfightings,gypsies) , independence is good:D.

[The Ripper]

I wish Spaniards could reconcile their internal differences in a spirit of local autonomy on one hand and national unity on the other. I'm gravely suspicious of these separatist movements and their motives, but I'm just as suspicious of the central (and the ever-centralizing) governments, be they national or supranational.

I agree with RoyBatty, separating from Spain while remaining in the EU makes little sense - unless you belong to the political elite that will profit from it.

[Ibericus]

For the basque or catalonian separatists being part of European Union is a secondary thing. If European Union dont acept them as independent countries, then they will not be part of European Union. In Spain everybody see European Union only as economic union , not as a national union . Nobody wants a european national football or basketball team. European countries will exist forever.

The only reason to get independence at least for basques is to mantain our culture. If we are part of Spain , our culture will disapear. Basques are actually a minority in our own territory because we have been part of Spain. On the other hand , Spain is in a suicidal tendence of "multiculturalism". Spanish government has allowed the masive inmigration of 7 millions of latinamericans, magrebians ,romanians or chineses that will finish with local cultures and ethnics.

Finally , only for scaping from the Borbons , PP-PSOE dictature, and spaniard false topics(flamenco, bullfightings,gypsies) , independence is good:D.I am not independentist and I want all you say : Preservation of cultures, languages, finishing with the spanish false topics(flamenco, bullfightings, gypsies) , finishing with the borbons, finishing multiculturalism, etc.

[Oinakos Growion]

I'm gravely suspicious of these separatist movements and their motives
So were the Russians of the Finns ;)
See... if you don't have a State you don't exist. You can "allow" all you want within a given State, but to the rest of the world, in terms of negotiating your own interests and/or managing your own affairs (from economy to culture and language) you'll always be curtailed here and there. Not to mention you don't have any visibility other than being some folkloric element at the end of the day. Who in the general public knew of all the soviet republics and countries that are now independent for example? Now it is "normal" to be Estonian for example, but make no mistake, a few years ago Estonia "didn't exist" in the collective minds of most countries; they were all "bloody Russians/Soviets". If you don't have such external visibility (representation in the UN, football team, you name it), you simply don't compute.
In Spain the talks about "federalism" have been going on for so long - but without ever getting anywhere - that many are now convinced that there's "only one way out". Unfortunately Spain copied a wrong model (French) for establishing its modern national organization (nevermind the "autonomous communities"). And the monarchy...

[nisse]

There is a similar situation in Canada. Quebec (Canada's Francophone province) is always threatening to break off. Really, there is no point - they effectively are independent (they even largely manage their own immigration policy) and derive great benefits from the federal tax subsidies they get. I think it's a mutually beneficial arrangement, as Canada has ties to its history (it was colonized by the French first), while Quebec is largely independent and gets money from the rest of Canada. Quebec sets a pretty good example when it come to cultural preservation and they have some of the most xenophobic/traditionalist policies. I would support its independence if the majority wanted it (it's not good forcing people to do something), but in all the referendums held the majority (slim some times) voted against it.

I think this approach (strengthening local governments) while reducing the power of the central government and maintaining territorial unity is best (when applied on a more radical scale)....in fact, when taken to its logical conclusion, it reduces down to an anarchist territory which would be able to resist colonization attempts by its neighbours :D.

[Groenewolf]

In Spain everybody see European Union only as economic union , not as a national union . Nobody wants a european national football or basketball team. European countries will exist forever.

Did Spain not vote in favor of the European constitution, that included things like a 'national' flag and anthem?

[The Lawspeaker]

Did Spain not vote in favor of the European constitution, that included things like a 'national' flag and anthem?
While we "liberal Dutch" voted overwhelmingly against it. Our conscience is clear.

[Ibericus]

Independentist woman :

http://www.grupnaciodigital.com/redaccio/arxius/imatges/576_1279112545bellesa.jpg

[perikolez]

Did Spain not vote in favor of the European constitution, that included things like a 'national' flag and anthem?

Only 40% went to vote that constitution . 60% didnt vote it.Spain isnt a real democracy. We are in a postfranquist regime , dominated by a dictature of PP and PSOE . They say that they are very diferent parties , but esentially when they govern , they act in the same way. PP-PSOE control all the televisions,radios and newspapers , and they have the absolute control over 40% of the voters . If Franco had presented to a democratic election , he would have received at leats 40% of the votes , because he controlled all the medias.

[Loki]

I wish Spaniards could reconcile their internal differences

Catalans aren't Spaniards, though. In nationality, yes, but not ethnicity.

[Comte Arnau]

Catalans aren't Spaniards, though. In nationality, yes, but not ethnicity.

In nationality, Catalans can be Spanish, Andorran, French or even Italian. Or any other when it comes to diaspora, of course.

As for that comment on "internal differences", lol. It's funny coming from a Finn. He's happy that Finland doesn't belong to Russia or Sweden and doesn't have to struggle to maintain those "internal differences"...

[Osweo]

Catalans aren't Spaniards, though. In nationality, yes, but not ethnicity.

God, I hate seeing the word 'nationality' used for 'citizenship' or 'in political terms' and so on... :rage Nationality and ethnicity are the same thing, if one's language is more etymologically inspired. :cry2

But anyway...
Are Englishmen British? Of course they are, and there's far more to this than mere politics and geography. It has an ethnic dimension too...

Looking at the Catalans, they're far more similar to the other Spaniards than in our British example, from the simple similarity of language. There are no ethnic elements from ancient times that distinguish them from the rest. The differences just grew in situ, as in any large region. But the name of that region was Hispania. Limiting 'Spain' merely to Castile is quite unprecedented historically.

Look at the first use of the word:
http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/c/co/conquista_hispania.svg.png
This map shows the waves of Roman advance. They called the land they were conquering 'Hispania', and as you can see, the very earliest parts under their control, and formally given that political identity, were exactly the areas now called Catalonia.

When they'd finished conquering, the whole peninsular was Hispania Citerior and Hispania Ulterior. The latter was then divided into Lusitania and Baetica.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_69u2CK25Cas/ScfdSWkmxmI/AAAAAAAAJAM/L-4UeEcUQDo/s400/Hispania.jpg

Hispania Citerior was renamed H. Tarraconensis, and near enough conforms exactly to the modern Catalan heartland plus the Basque Pyrenees;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Tarraconensis.png/300px-Tarraconensis.png

Catalunya is Spanish at its root. That there later developed different versions of Hispano-Latin is by the bye. New ethnic divisions come along, but older over-arching identities can't be forgotten. Ethnicity shouldn't be treated as a black/white matter. The overlap and substrate and superstrate make this far more complex.

[Comte Arnau]

God, I hate seeing the word 'nationality' used for 'citizenship' or 'in political terms' and so on... :rage Nationality and ethnicity are the same thing, if one's language is more etymologically inspired.

Not really. And even less in Spain, where they invented the word 'nacionalidad' for the Constitution in order not to say 'nation'...



Are Englishmen British? Of course they are, and there's far more to this than mere politics and geography.

You'll never see me denying most of Catalonia is Hispanic if by Hispanic it's meant Iberian. The concept of Hispanic/Spanish exists from very old times, but trying to apply former meanings to the one it has now is not only anachronical, it's absurd.


Looking at the Catalans, they're far more similar to the other Spaniards than in our British example, from the simple similarity of language.

If by similarity of language, then the line of France should be lowered and cross the Ebro. Catalan is way farther from Spanish than Portuguese is.


There are no ethnic elements from ancient times that distinguish them from the rest.

Not that it matters to me, but the area occupied now by the Catalans is pretty much the same as the one occupied before the Romans by the Iberian tribes. Iberian in the ethnic sense. The Western part was occupied by Celts and other ethnicities. Anyway, the modern ethnicities start by the 8th century, so it is not that important, to be frank.


But the name of that region was Hispania. Limiting 'Spain' merely to Castile is quite unprecedented historically.

Yes. I even think the Iberian Peninsula would better be called the Hispanic Peninsula, because Iberians only lived in the East. But that doesn't change the fact that it had different political meanings and a rather geographical meaning later. Nor the fact that we are not to blame if it's the Castilians who took the name for themselves as they expanded. Although the story is much more complex than that, because the term español was created beyond the Pyrenees.


They called the land they were conquering 'Hispania', and as you can see, the very earliest parts under their control, and formally given that political identity, were exactly the areas now called Catalonia.

So Catalonia was part of Roman Hispania? Catalonia didn't even exist then, lol.



Catalunya is Spanish at its root.

Catalonia is Iberian but let me tell you one thing. If anything, Catalonia is Frankish at its root. Were it not by the March created by the Carolingians to defend against the Moor advance, the Catalan and Aragonese counties wouldn't have been created.


That there later developed different versions of Hispano-Latin is by the bye. New ethnic divisions come along, but older over-arching identities can't be forgotten. Ethnicity shouldn't be treated as a black/white matter. The overlap and substrate and superstrate make this far more complex.

You're confusing terms. The Iberian ethnicity totally disappeared few centuries after the Roman conquest. New ethnicities derived from the Roman one came to be around the 8th and 9th centuries, that's all. The only exception would be the Basques.


This exemplies things better.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Spanish_reconquista.gif

[Loki]

Osweo, with all due respect, I am more inclined to take the word of a Catalan (on this matter). He knows his people and who they are. :)

[Loki]

God, I hate seeing the word 'nationality' used for 'citizenship' or 'in political terms' and so on... :rage Nationality and ethnicity are the same thing, if one's language is more etymologically inspired. :cry2

But anyway...
Are Englishmen British? Of course they are, and there's far more to this than mere politics and geography. It has an ethnic dimension too...


My dear Osweo ... there you have yourself described the difference between nationality and ethnicity. You can ask Captain Blackbeard ... in nationality he is British (i.e. holds British citizenship and passport), but in ethnicity he is English. He would never call himself British. ;)

[Osweo]

You'll never see me denying most of Catalonia is Hispanic if by Hispanic it's meant Iberian. The concept of Hispanic/Spanish exists from very old times, but trying to apply former meanings to the one it has now is not only anachronical, it's absurd.
Why absurd? It may be rather unfamiliar to those who've been brought up without historical knowledge, or in a political tradition that attempts to do away with older ideas, but that's no clear refutation of the good sense behind such usage.


If by similarity of language, then the line of France should be lowered and cross the Ebro. Catalan is way farther from Spanish than Portuguese is.
Or isn't it rather more like a bridge between Castilian and Occitan, maybe even closer to the latter than the former? I don't know. It's certainly not closer to the langue d'ouil or whatever it's called.

Not that it matters to me, but the area occupied now by the Catalans is pretty much the same as the one occupied before the Romans by the Iberian tribes. Iberian in the ethnic sense. The Western part was occupied by Celts and other ethnicities. Anyway, the modern ethnicities start by the 8th century, so it is not that important, to be frank.
My usual position is that these older layers are more important than many think. I would say also that, okay, Catalonia is not TOO different from old 'Iberia' in the stricter sense of the latter, BUT, the people to the west were Celtiberos - they shared a substrate with those by the coast.


Yes. I even think the Iberian Peninsula would better be called the Hispanic Peninsula, because Iberians only lived in the East.
There is some good sense in that. But see my last comment again, too.

But that doesn't change the fact that it had different political meanings and a rather geographical meaning later.
But politics and geography over extended periods are exactly the sort of thing that help shape ethnicity.

Nor the fact that we are not to blame if it's the Castilians who took the name for themselves as they expanded.
Interesting parallels for Russia, Ukraine and Belarus here... :strokebeard: But there were Catalans all along that were STILL using the term.

Although the story is much more complex than that, because the term español was created beyond the Pyrenees.
Oh? In Francia? Do tell!


So Catalonia was part of Roman Hispania? Catalonia didn't even exist then, lol.
Unlol. I didn't say that and you know I didn't. :rolleyes:

Catalonia is Iberian but let me tell you one thing. If anything, Catalonia is Frankish at its root. Were it not by the March created by the Carolingians to defend against the Moor advance, the Catalan and Aragonese counties wouldn't have been created.
Sure. The Franks had an immense impact on you. Quite defining, indeed. But this doesn't rule out all the other older and deeper stuff too. Surely there were villagers up in remote places that barely noticed the Frankish annexations?
You're confusing terms. The Iberian ethnicity totally disappeared few centuries after the Roman conquest. New ethnicities derived from the Roman one came to be around the 8th and 9th centuries, that's all. The only exception would be the Basques.
So we have roughly a millennium of no Iberians, and no Catalans yet. A millenium of what? Of Hispanenses or 'Spaniards' indeed, living in what is now your Catalonia. Is that long age to be dismissed now as irrelevant?


This exemplies things better.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Spanish_reconquista.gif
Damn my epilepsy! :D

I've seen such things before, but they obviously don't show everything that really went on, at the grass roots level. The borders weren't airtight. Adventurers, colonists and refugees wandered all over. It's merely a political map. If anything, the southward push and the ever-narrowing width of the Catalanophone conquests shows how you were always fated to come into intimate contact and ultimate refusion with your western neighbour - geography dictated it.

But again, lets look deeper than the political borders. Every advance into al Andalus brought more Mozarabes back into Christian Spanish rule. These were obviously neither Castellano nor Catalan. Just Spanish. And they tied you together yet again.

[Osweo]

My dear Osweo ... there you have yourself described the difference between nationality and ethnicity. You can ask Captain Blackbeard ... in nationality he is British (i.e. holds British citizenship and passport), but in ethnicity he is English. He would never call himself British. ;)

The good Cap'n, with all due respect, is a well known essentialist fanatic on this question. ;)

My nationality is English, as I'm from the nation called the English. This isn't a political structure at the present moment in time, nor is it a chunk of territory. It's a people. My ethnicity is... wait for it.... English, as I'm from the ethnos which is called the English. Our homeland England is named FROM us, not the other way round. Ethnos and nation are synonyms. One is Latin and one is Greek. Unfortunately, the Latin one has suffered some distortions in usage, but we can try to uphold the real meaning still, as it's far from obsolete in that sense.

My citizenship is 'United Kingdom'. In shorthand it's 'British'. Quite a different concept, and one shared with all manner of racial and ethnic aliens to this archipelago.

However, there is an ethnic element of 'Britishness' that is to be found most expressed in the Welsh, but also in the English and Scots, and Irish. The nations are not hermetically sealed, and wider supranational categories can have an ethnic base.

As a sign of this, 'Cap'n Blackbeard' entertains himself by using the self-designation of 'Celt'... It's unclear that anyone on this island ever called himself a 'Celt', or even 'Keltos', 'Galatos' or whatever. However, what our member has in mind here is of course 'BRITISH' = the ethnic identity of Celtic speaking Britons, especially once fused under Roman rule.

[Beorn]

The good Cap'n, with all due respect, is a well known essentialist fanatic on this question. ;)

No one ever got anywhere without fanatics. :swl


As a sign of this, 'Cap'n Blackbeard' entertains himself by using the self-designation of 'Celt'...

:confused: When?

[Comte Arnau]

Why absurd? It may be rather unfamiliar to those who've been brought up without historical knowledge, or in a political tradition that attempts to do away with older ideas, but that's no clear refutation of the good sense behind such usage.

Absurd because what Spain and Spanish mean today is different from what it meant four, seven or nine centuries ago. Let alone from what it meant in Roman times, when it was but a colonized province. So extrapolation isn't feasible. The matrix of what Spain and Spanish mean now as an ethnicity takes place at the beginning of the Reconquista and at several important historical events that take place along the posterior centuries. Spain as a Castilian nation basically settles down politically at the beginning of the 18th century, so trying to see the roots in events and legends before that date, as Hispanophiles love to do, is poetic maybe, but not scientific.


Or isn't it rather more like a bridge between Castilian and Occitan, maybe even closer to the latter than the former? I don't know. It's certainly not closer to the langue d'ouil or whatever it's called.

A bridge between Aragonese and Occitan, at most. And of course it is closer to Occitan than to Spanish, they were even regarded as the same language in the past, although it was not. By saying that about the French line I meant that, considering what has happened to our northern brothers and considering History as a whole. Of course this should not belong to either France or Spain/Castile, the Crown of Aragon should have continued to exist as a State of its own. Things would be so different and easier now...


My usual position is that these older layers are more important than many think. I would say also that, okay, Catalonia is not TOO different from old 'Iberia' in the stricter sense of the latter, BUT, the people to the east were Celtiberos - they shared a substrate with those by the coast.

I don't get your point here. Celtiberians were a few tribes of Celts living in central Spain. Iberians were the tribes living in the east, with no ethnic connection whatsoever with the western Celts, other than cultural influences. If anything, Iberians were related to the Basques, following the Vasco-Iberian hypothesis, which I do.


But politics and geography over extended periods are exactly the sort of thing that help shape ethnicity.

That's it, over extended periods. That's why I want independence: we have survived for three centuries, but things are happening faster now and one century more under the rule of Spain may likely mean the death of my millenary people.


Interesting parallels for Russia, Ukraine and Belarus here... :strokebeard: But there were Catalans all along that were STILL using the term.

Sure. We have existed for more than 1,000 millions and our flag is the oldest still in use. The will to be is strong here, that for sure! :D


Oh? In Francia? Do tell!

Espaniol was very likely a Gascon or Occitan term to call those coming from Hispania (hispaniolu). It can't be a Castilian word, because it doesn't diphthongize (españuelo) and the ending -ol or -uelo wasn't typical for nationalities. Besides, demonyms are usually given by neighbours... It entered via Aragon or Catalonia, and had a rather geographical meaning for centuries. A bit like Iberian today. You just have to see how the word Hispanic/Spanish was used for the Spanish March, which was everything but Castilian.


Unlol. I didn't say that and you know I didn't. :rolleyes:

Admitted. :thumb001:


Sure. The Franks had an immense impact on you. Quite defining, indeed. But this doesn't rule out all the other older and deeper stuff too. Surely there were villagers up in remote places that barely noticed the Frankish annexations?

Neither the Franks nor the Moors had a real impact on Catalonia, from the physical point of view. But it was due to both of them that the counties were originated. You can even hear it in the anthem of Andorra, called the great Charlemagne my father. :D Catalonia -and Aragon- begin to exist politically when the counties, particularly the House of Barcelona, get their independence from the Franks.


So we have roughly a millennium of no Iberians, and no Catalans yet. A millenium of what? Of Hispanenses or 'Spaniards' indeed, living in what is now your Catalonia. Is that long age to be dismissed now as irrelevant?

What? We have a millenium of Romanized Iberians living with Roman settlers, all citizens of Rome until the fall of the Empire. Then the local dialect of Latin gradually shapes the locals in the derived Latin ethnicity that are to be the Catalans.



I've seen such things before, but they obviously don't show everything that really went on, at the grass roots level. The borders weren't airtight. Adventurers, colonists and refugees wandered all over. It's merely a political map.

You are wrong, it's much more than a political map. Iberia is different to the rest of Europe in that the Reconquista marked the spread of the ethnicities that have begun with the fall of the Roman Empire (vertical dimension). The Latin ethnicities living in central and southern Iberia ceased to exist, only the northern survived and spread downwards. They all still exist today, although the Aragonese and Asturians are almost dead due to serious Castilianization of their homelands. Modern ethnic Iberia can only be understood when one knows thoroughly its history from the onset of the Reconquista.


If anything, the southward push and the ever-narrowing width of the Catalanophone conquests shows how you were always fated to come into intimate contact and ultimate refusion with your western neighbour - geography dictated it.

Did I ever deny the contact has been strong for centuries? Although the Aragonese worked as a frontier between Castilians and Catalans, at least while they existed as a distinct ethnicity.


But again, lets look deeper than the political borders. Every advance into al Andalus brought more Mozarabes back into Christian Spanish rule. These were obviously neither Castellano nor Catalan. Just Spanish. And they tied you together yet again.

No. Mozarabic people were different from Castilians or Catalans. They were Iberians (or Hispanic Romans, if you prefer) speaking incipient Latin varieties of their own. The Reconquista probably stopped them from becoming real languages. If there had been no Reconquista, there'll be several Mozarabic Romance languages, with probable centres in Saragossa, Toledo, Valencia and Seville.

[Ibericus]

I don't get your point here. Celtiberians were a few tribes of Celts living in central Spain. Iberians were the tribes living in the east, with no ethnic connection whatsoever with the western Celts, other than cultural influences. If anything, Iberians were related to the Basques, following the Vasco-Iberian hypothesis, which I do.

No you are wrong. The Iberians were not just in the East, but in almost all the Peninsula. Later the Celtiberians expanded in almost all the Peninsula. Also Catalonia received Celts , from the Gauls and the previously the Urnfield culture. Expansion of Celtiberians :
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9933/32zhv76.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

No you are wrong. The Iberians were not just in the East, but in almost all the Peninsula. Later the Celtiberians expanded in almost all the Peninsula. Also Catalonia received Celts , from the Gauls and the previously the Urnfield culture. Expansion of Celtiberians :
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9933/32zhv76.jpg

Er... I may have missed one or two Sesame Street shows but in that map Iberians are clearly in the East.

Celtiberians were Celts. If they were given that name, it was just because they were different from other Celts in the sense that they were strongly influenced by their neighbour Iberians, particularly in things like the adoption of writing.

(Btw, where's that map from? The area for Celtiberians is way too exaggerated)

Of all you say, one thing is true. There were Celts in Catalonia for a time, and it is likely that it was not just one type of Celts. But whatever happened, either their impact was minimal or the remains are rather scarce. At least, in comparison to the West.

[The Ripper]

As for that comment on "internal differences", lol. It's funny coming from a Finn. He's happy that Finland doesn't belong to Russia or Sweden and doesn't have to struggle to maintain those "internal differences"...

I'm happy to amuse. Your comparisons are also amusing.

[Amapola]

Did Spain not vote in favor of the European constitution, that included things like a 'national' flag and anthem?


While we "liberal Dutch" voted overwhelmingly against it. Our conscience is clear.

Netherlands: Strong campaign against the EU Constitution, before the referendum
Spain: Official campaign in favour of the EU Constitution, before the referendum. No campaign against, due to internal politics

Results:

Spanish "Sí" (yes) votes as % of all eligible voters: 32.20
Dutch "Ja" (yes) votes as % of all eligible voters: 24.16

Spanish abstentions as % of all eligible voters: 58.68%
Dutch abstentions as % of all eligible voters: 36.70%

Close on 60% of abstentions proves that 2/3 of the country was not interested in the matter of the EU, let alone the constitution.

And the other third voted their parties slogan, which were the only message either as a party or as a government.

[Groenewolf]

Netherlands: Strong campaign against the EU Constitution, before the referendum.

It was more a weak official campaign for the constitution. Our pro-EU politicians where pretty much treating that we said no that there would be a second holocaust, war, ect. With other words they pretty much made a fool out of themselves.

vv715js9_TA

[antonio]

Er... I may have missed one or two Sesame Street shows but in that map Iberians are clearly in the East.

Celtiberians were Celts. If they were given that name, it was just because they were different from other Celts in the sense that they were strongly influenced by their neighbour Iberians, particularly in things like the adoption of writing.

(Btw, where's that map from? The area for Celtiberians is way too exaggerated)

Of all you say, one thing is true. There were Celts in Catalonia for a time, and it is likely that it was not just one type of Celts. But whatever happened, either their impact was minimal or the remains are rather scarce. At least, in comparison to the West.

That map is pure shit. But your appreciations are also not much of my taste. First of all, the Celtiberian term is misguided: they were not so strongly influenced by Iberians, if they were so strongly influenced (hence so culturally inferior) do not ever managed and bothered to adopt Iberian script to their own indoeuropean language, they'd simply adopted Iberian language and culture. For not to talk about the Celtic gods they adored...another strange omission is about Gauls, present about Iber (from current Alava) and its affluents (like river Gallicum named after them) and Catalonia, which, for taking part till later of the Celtic kernel, they're "more Celts" than f.e. Galaicos, suspiciously named just Celts (as if they were remained pure and no influenced at that remote corner) , omitting that they share same Gods and language with Lusitanos (strangely named as Celtiberians while being in fact part with another branch along with Galaicos).

Ps. And, of course, Id second totally Iberia stand about Preindoeuropean people (ProtoBasques, Iberians...) occupying all the Peninsula. What remains unclear was the relation among them, for example their languages seems to be related although not to the point of investigators deciphered extinct Iberian from modern Basque.

[esaima]

I remeber the period when Estonia restored it´s independence and foreign supporters and friends were very important.
Catalonia should be independent if it wants to be so.:thumb001:

[Oinakos Growion]

Galaicos, suspiciously named just Celts (as if they were remained pure and no influenced at that remote corner) , omitting that they share same Gods and language with Lusitanos (strangely named as Celtiberians while being in fact part with another branch along with Galaicos)
erm... Galaicos were just one of the Celtic tribes in the area. There were plenty more. Blame the Romans for naming the whole area after them. And yes, they were Celtic and somewhat isolated. Lusitanians were neighbours. But, still, the Lusitanian core (around Serra da Estrela according to Portuguese historiography, and down south into Spanish Extremadura according to others) and the northern Celtic core - where the Galaicos were immersed - were too far to have a direct influence on each other. Some gods may be shared, but it basically was common aspects of nature worshipped in a more or less similar way. The northern pantheon was still quite different from the Lusitanian and each retained exclusive gods/goddesses. And I won't even go into the language thing...
You could say that Celtic culture in the Iberian NW compared to the rest was different or somehow peculiar (i.e. different cultural aspects within the Celtic realm), but that's about it.

"Fluvius Dourus dividens Gallaecia et Lusitania" (Julius Honorius), and that division seems to be still valid today if judging material culture, settlement pattern, folklore and so on.

[Comte Arnau]

First of all, the Celtiberian term is misguided: they were not so strongly influenced by Iberians, if they were so strongly influenced (hence so culturally inferior) do not ever managed and bothered to adopt Iberian script to their own indoeuropean language, they'd simply adopted Iberian language and culture.

Wrong. Things don't work like this, no people changes its language out of mere admiration for another culture. When a people changes its language for another is always because of imposition/forced assimilation by the dominant one.

But it is very possible and logical indeed to adopt the writing of another culture, when you don't have a writing for your language. That is the way the different writing systems have been transmitted in History.


and Catalonia, which, for taking part till later of the Celtic kernel, they're "more Celts" than f.e. Galaicos

Er... what? I think I don't get you here. In what way Catalans are "more Celts"? :confused:


Ps. And, of course, Id second totally Iberia stand about Preindoeuropean people (ProtoBasques, Iberians...) occupying all the Peninsula. What remains unclear was the relation among them, for example their languages seems to be related although not to the point of investigators deciphered extinct Iberian from modern Basque.

Here I can agree too. Although saying they were spread all over the Peninsula is too far-fetched, there'll be clearer toponymical evidence if so.


I remeber the period when Estonia restored it´s independence and foreign supporters and friends were very important.
Catalonia should be independent if it wants to be so.:thumb001:

People who've been in the same situation always understand you better. I'm happy for Estonians, you got it! :thumb001:

[nisse]

Wrong. Things don't work like this, no people changes its language out of mere admiration for another culture. When a people changes its language for another is always because of imposition/forced assimilation by the dominant one.

That is not necessarily true. When France was conquered by Franks the conquerors adopted the language of the conquered because the infrastructure that was already in place and in their language, was better.

[antonio]

Wrong. Things don't work like this, no people changes its language out of mere admiration for another culture. When a people changes its language for another is always because of imposition/forced assimilation by the dominant one.

Imposition or assimilation are classes of the strong influence I was talking about. Celtiberians had at the moment of contacting Iberians (if not an alphabet or polited works of Art of Greek influence) a strong culture & "personality" which still maintained different at Romans arrival.


But it is very possible and logical indeed to adopt the writing of another culture, when you don't have a writing for your language. That is the way the different writing systems have been transmitted in History.


Of course, but the very fact of doing that and not simply resigned their inferior culture and language with their elites adopting superior one, implies an evolved personality as people, with not much distance from the pretended superior alphabetized culture.



Er... what? I think I don't get you here. In what way Catalans are "more Celts"?


Of course, I don't know if my expression is an orthodox one from the point of view of modern day Historics -the samy way Im less Historician than a Graduate because I got isolated earlier(since my excellent grades in Primary) from the stuff mainly because of other interests in other knowledge areas-.

But I reassert it: the earlier you get isolated Southward from the centroeuropean kernel and innovative areas of your culture, the lesser you can hold the name labeling all the stuff. You, f.e., if you had Ancients councils you'were clearly missing the Druids, capital part of the later and more characteristic stages of what it's now called Celtic culture. So, maybe in a unacademical but more concise way, I can say that Hallstatic tribes as Galaicos, Lusitanos or Celtiberos were "less Celts" than later-stage Gaulish inmigrations settled about Ebro river or Catalonia.


Here I can agree too. Although saying they were spread all over the Peninsula is too far-fetched, there'll be clearer toponymical evidence if so.

Maybe, but many areas of Iberian Peninsula suffered so much wars and depopulations that hardly would maintain a single toponymical evidence from so remote PreIndoeuropean times. Other areas, like Galicia, being the contrary case: layers of every single invasor had been maintained, due of the continuous undisrupted population and the flourish microtoponimia due to the abruptuous landscape.

[antonio]

erm... Galaicos were just one of the Celtic tribes in the area. There were plenty more. Blame the Romans for naming the whole area after them. And yes, they were Celtic and somewhat isolated. Lusitanians were neighbours. But, still, the Lusitanian core (around Serra da Estrela according to Portuguese historiography, and down south into Spanish Extremadura according to others) and the northern Celtic core - where the Galaicos were immersed - were too far to have a direct influence on each other. Some gods may be shared, but it basically was common aspects of nature worshipped in a more or less similar way. The northern pantheon was still quite different from the Lusitanian and each retained exclusive gods/goddesses.


And I won't even go into the language thing...
You could say that Celtic culture in the Iberian NW compared to the rest was different or somehow peculiar (i.e. different cultural aspects within the Celtic realm), but that's about it.

"Fluvius Dourus dividens Gallaecia et Lusitania" (Julius Honorius), and that division seems to be still valid today if judging material culture, settlement pattern, folklore and so on.

Indeed you're right. For what I know, NorthGalician(let's call it Artabrian) castra lacks many of the more characteristical features of the SouthGalicia (for extension from Douro tribes: Kallaekian) ones: "pedras formosas" and standing knights. But what I wanted to emphatize was that all the Atlantic facade Celts seem to speech a different branch from Celtiberian one, lets call it Lusitan (divided in Northern and Southern). Unfortunatelly the first alphabet they seemed to adopt was the Latin one, so they got almost assimilated into Roman culture and hence long texts in native speech like Celtiberian Botorrita 1 were not precissed or at not enough number to be any preserved (till the tardorroman Lusitanian one) : the point of my last post: majority of Peninsular Celts were not strongly deculturized till Roman domination, so cathegorization of Celtiberian as a sort of deculturized Celts by contact with superior (not so superior at all excluding the by not means generalized Greek based items) Iberian culture.

[Oinakos Growion]

Unfortunatelly the first alphabet they seemed to adopt was the Latin one
There's debates on that ;)
There's a couple of articles out there considering whether the Galician Celts began to develop their own alphabet and so on. Pity nobody has picked it up from what was done. So there's very little scientific literature on it. As a matter of fact, it's not part of the "PC" discourse to talk too much about Celts over here anymore... Or Swabians, or...

[Osweo]

Isn't it quite unnecessary to be talking of Celts and Iberians and Celtiberians while using the word 'superior'? :ohwell:

I understood the Celtiberos to be something of a fusion. Is this wrong? That such a thing could happen seems superficially at least to be realistic.

[Osweo]

There's a couple of articles out there considering whether the Galician Celts began to develop their own alphabet and so on. Pity nobody has picked it up from what was done. So there's very little scientific literature on it.
Pff! What suggests that this might have been the case?

I think you spend too much time on the internet. Your 'Celtic Nation' needs you to be out in the hills, forging Galician ogham inscriptions! :rotfl:

[Oinakos Growion]

What suggests that this might have been the case?
The case of... what?


Galician ogham inscriptions
Who said anything about oghams.

I said - I'll put it in other words - indications that language could have been codified beyond oral tradition in pre-Roman times, hence hypothesising they might have been developing their own alphabet. Why does this sound "mad" in your ears?
All I commented is that it's a pity that serious research (note the word "scientific" on previous post, not looney theories) on Galician pre-history has been neglected for a long time due to lack of funding (for ex. more than half of the Bronze Age locations have been mapped but not dug), including this specific issue on writing, no more than a handful of articles despite the promising open leads.

I'd love to research that, but I'm neither an archaeologist nor a linguist. I can only work with the data they provide, when they do.

[Osweo]

The case of... what?
You said 'began to develop their own alphabet'.

What are the indications of this?

language could have been codified beyond oral tradition in pre-Roman times,
What does that even mean!?

[Oinakos Growion]

That they could have started to write before the Romans arrived, hence developing a basic alphabet. Traditionally they'd have based their transmission of culture on orality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orality). There's vague indications and some few Roman references on it.
And I added that it's a pity these issues are not being further studied because if no more research is done we'll never find material proof of it, if there is any at all.
That's why this is called an educated hypothesis, not a fact, yet. Take it as a simple comment.

I don't see the "amusing" part on all this as you seem to do.

[Osweo]

That they could have started to write before the Romans arrived, hence developing a basic alphabet.
'Could'?!? The Australian Aborigines could have done too. In neither case is there any evidence to make the supposition worthwhile.

Traditionally they'd have based their transmission of culture on orality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orality). There's vague indications and some few Roman references on it.
Most cultures on Earth do this. Why should we suspect this part of Hispania was abandoning it?

And I added that it's a pity these issues are not being further studied because if no more research is done we'll never find material proof of it, if there is any at all.
Throwing money at phantoms? Research seldom discovers archaeological evidence. Chance and necessity lead to the uncovering of most impressive artefacts. And no Callaecian script has been found.

That's why this is called an educated hypothesis, not a fact, yet. Take it as a simple comment.

I don't see the "amusing" part on all this as you seem to do.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you somehow. It all seems very strange to me. :shrug:

[Oinakos Growion]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you somehow. It all seems very strange to me
Perhaps. I was simply commenting on serious articles published in serious journals by professional archaeologists and linguists commenting on the possibility, given by:

a) Roman references to "contracts" (lands, heredities, etc) between NW Iberian Celtic peoples by means of "stone markings", that is no say, written communication at some level and not just engravings of figures.

and


And no Callaecian script has been found.
b) A specific article I read a long time ago (gotta find the exact reference; I made a copy of it but I don't have it with me) about what seemed to be a codified marking system, i.e. proto-alphabet, which in the opinion of the researcher contained information on the property of the field where it was found.

Admitting that all this is still hypothesis, it was my opinion that it was an issue worthy of being further explored if there were enough funds/grants, and that it was a pity it wasn't done. I also took a moment to rant about the general state of abandonment of Galician archaeology.

I'm sorry but I really can't express myself any better... in this language and alphabet :p

[Osweo]

a) Roman references to "contracts" (lands, heredities, etc) between NW Iberian Celtic peoples by means of "stone markings", that is no say, written communication at some level and not just engravings of figures.
AH NOW, that makes much more sense! Pictographs... :thumb001:

Calling that a proto-alphabet is an unpardonable sin, however...

b) A specific article I read a long time ago (gotta find the exact reference; I made a copy of it but I don't have it with me) about what seemed to be a codified marking system, i.e. proto-alphabet, which in the opinion of the researcher contained information on the property of the field where it was found.
Again, there's nothing about phonetic values of symbols here, or the concept of combining symbols to represent other unrelated words...

[Comte Arnau]

That is not necessarily true. When France was conquered by Franks the conquerors adopted the language of the conquered because the infrastructure that was already in place and in their language, was better.

So did the Goths in Iberia. But that is a different situation in a specific context where not only, as you very well say, the infrastructure was already there, but there was also previous influence of the conquered people on the conquerors. Even so, the influence in the Latin language spoken was big, particularly in France, as well as in names.


Imposition or assimilation are classes of the strong influence I was talking about. Celtiberians had at the moment of contacting Iberians (if not an alphabet or polited works of Art of Greek influence) a strong culture & "personality" which still maintained different at Romans arrival.

I was not pretending to say anything about Iberian culture being stronger or superior to the Celtic, if that's what you're pointing at. You won't see me saying such things as one culture being superior to another, unless joking or in a very particular context.



But I reassert it: the earlier you get isolated Southward from the centroeuropean kernel and innovative areas of your culture, the lesser you can hold the name labeling all the stuff. You, f.e., if you had Ancients councils you'were clearly missing the Druids, capital part of the later and more characteristic stages of what it's now called Celtic culture. So, maybe in a unacademical but more concise way, I can say that Hallstatic tribes as Galaicos, Lusitanos or Celtiberos were "less Celts" than later-stage Gaulish inmigrations settled about Ebro river or Catalonia.

Which 'later-stage Gaulish immigrations' settled in Catalonia? Catalonia was almost completely inhabited by Iberians in the centuries previous to the Roman invasion. The Celtic (or pre-Celtic) in Catalonia is rather associated with older stages. In fact, Celts most likely entered Iberia via Catalonia.


Maybe, but many areas of Iberian Peninsula suffered so much wars and depopulations that hardly would maintain a single toponymical evidence from so remote PreIndoeuropean times. Other areas, like Galicia, being the contrary case: layers of every single invasor had been maintained, due of the continuous undisrupted population and the flourish microtoponimia due to the abruptuous landscape.

Hmm. Weird, at least. Anyway we're moving in speculation quicksand there. There's also that Vennemann's theory about Vasconic languages being spoken in practically all of Western Europe. Again, it's quite logical to think that pre-IE families in this area of the world were related, and I think the fact that Iberian and Basque look like relatives but not sisters could be a hint of it. But it's just too risky to take these theories for granted.

[Oinakos Growion]

AH NOW, that makes much more sense! Pictographs... :thumb001:
Calling that a proto-alphabet is an unpardonable sin, however...
Of course. A pictograph is not an alphabet.
Some started to think about some sort of alphabet because the second hand sources we have (Romans) seemed to have considered those markings as something a bit more formal than the well-known pictographs; there was a distinction. That made some researchers wonder if that "other thing" was in fact a "proper" proto-alphabet or not. Sadly no solid evidence was ever found (other than the one theory of the one person below) and as things go it won't be found unless it is by mere chance.


Again, there's nothing about phonetic values of symbols here, or the concept of combining symbols to represent other unrelated words...
That's the thing, the author found parallelisms with other alphabets and was trying to determine what was copied from non-Latin influences, what was endogenous, how/why... if anything at all. After all NW Iberians had contact with other peoples for trading, etc before the Romans ever came.
I won't say I believed it but it was indeed interesting and made sense in some ways. After reading it I was intrigued and wondered that it might be an interesting topic for further research, but unfortunately nobody cares about those things over here anymore.

Does this make more sense now? :rolleyes:

[Ibericus]

The best times in Spain history was the 15th/16th centuries when were all united in one Kingdom but each region enjoyed it's own character and there were no disputes between regions. Castille was castillian, Catalonia was catalan, etc.

[perikolez]

The best times in Spain history was the 15th/16th centuries when were all united in one Kingdom but each region enjoyed it's own character and there were no disputes between regions. Castille was castillian, Catalonia was catalan, etc.

Catalonia was part of Aragonese kingdom. Spain wasnt reunited in one kingdom. Spain was divided in two kindoms (Castilla and Aragon) that have the same king but they were diferent kingdoms . The conquer of America was castilian, not spanish, aragonese or catalonian.

[Ibericus]

Catalonia was part of Aragonese kingdom. Spain wasnt reunited in one kingdom.
Wrong. Ferdinand's 1469 marriage to Isabella I of Castile brought about a dynastic union of the Crown of Aragon with Castile. In 1516 the monarchies were formally united into a single Kingdom of Spain, but each former kingdom conserved its political institutions and maintained its own courts, laws, public administration, and separate coinage of money.

Spain was divided in two kindoms (Castilla and Aragon) that have the same king but they were diferent kingdoms . The conquer of America was castilian, not spanish, aragonese or catalonian.
Yes, but that was before 1516 when the Kingdom of Spain was formed

[perikolez]

Wrong. Ferdinand's 1469 marriage to Isabella I of Castile brought about a dynastic union of the Crown of Aragon with Castile. In 1516 the monarchies were formally united into a single Kingdom of Spain, but each former kingdom conserved its political institutions and maintained its own courts, laws, public administration, and separate coinage of money.

Yes, but that was before 1516 when the Kingdom of Spain was formed

Why castilian language and culture was imposed in America and not catalonian?.Aragonese were foreigners and couldnt go to America. Basques were castilians and they were one of the main conquerors of America. Catalonians participated rarely in the american coonization , while basques , extremadurans and andalusians were everywhere in America. In my opinion this show clearly that they were separated.

On the other hand , without Portugal , Spain didnt exist . Calling actually Spain to the union Castilla and Aragon is wrong. Portugal historically is as Spain as Castilla. Only between 1580-1640 when Portugal,Castilla and Aragon were dominated by the same Austria dinasty , you can call it Spain.

[Oinakos Growion]

The best times in Spain history was the 15th/16th centuries when were all united in one Kingdom but each region enjoyed it's own character and there were no disputes between regions
lol
That's why when Isabella of Castille arrived in Galicia in 1486 after "pacifying" us following the so-called policy of "taming and castration of the Kingdom of Galicia" (words of Zurita, her chronicler) we start calling that period the "Dark Centuries". Funny how for them it was the "Golden Age" :D
Should I mention that the Santa Hermandad (i.e. Inquisition) started "practising" in Galicia after 1486 as that was the place to be fully subdued with the highest priority? Or that there was a border between Galicia and Asturias - where you had to pay taxes to cross, etc. - until around 19thC? ;)
Funny.


Aragonese were foreigners and couldnt go to America. Basques were castilians and they were one of the main conquerors of America. Catalonians participated rarely in the american coonization , while basques , extremadurans and andalusians were everywhere in America
And in principle there was only one port, Seville, allowed to trade with America. All the Atlantic ports were strictly forbidden of doing so until centuries later.


On the other hand , without Portugal , Spain didnt exist . Calling actually Spain to the union Castilla and Aragon is wrong. Portugal historically is as Spain as Castilla. Only between 1580-1640 when Portugal,Castilla and Aragon were dominated by the same Austria dinasty , you can call it Spain.
hm... I don't think many Portuguese share this view but... I get what you mean.
Indeed, the "great plan" of Isabella (and others) to "unify" the peninsula failed miserably and "Spain" had to be constructed from there on ignoring a huge chunk of the pan-Iberian legacy (the Portuguese side). Portugal were quite ok with it all really :D Even when Portugal was annexed to Spain with Felipe II it was only a question of time until such a union went to hell (despite the good intentions of Felipe, mind you, but his officials and diplomats sent to Lisbon failed him miserably too).


"Cada um conta a feira como lhe vai nela"

[Ibericus]

Why castilian language and culture was imposed in America and not catalonian?.Aragonese were foreigners and couldnt go to America. Basques were castilians and they were one of the main conquerors of America. Catalonians participated rarely in the american coonization , while basques , extremadurans and andalusians were everywhere in America. In my opinion this show clearly that they were separated.
Because for the Catalans it was frobidden to go to America.


On the other hand , without Portugal , Spain didnt exist . Calling actually Spain to the union Castilla and Aragon is wrong. Portugal historically is as Spain as Castilla. Only between 1580-1640 when Portugal,Castilla and Aragon were dominated by the same Austria dinasty , you can call it Spain.
I know

[Comte Arnau]

Catalonia was part of Aragonese kingdom.

Part of the Aragonese Crown, not really of the Kingdom. But Catalans could be princeps of the Aragonese, which doesn't mean prince, but high leader. That is why Catalonia is a Principality in spite of having been no kingdom.


Because for the Catalans it was frobidden to go to America.


It was forbidden to trade or to go there as a Catalan invader. But several Catalan priests and soldiers/militia went there given that they served the cause of Castile... Just have a look at the history of California.

[Amapola]

Why castilian language and culture was imposed in America and not catalonian?.Aragonese were foreigners and couldnt go to America. Basques were castilians and they were one of the main conquerors of America. Catalonians participated rarely in the american coonization , while basques , extremadurans and andalusians were everywhere in America. In my opinion this show clearly that they were separated.

On the other hand , without Portugal , Spain didnt exist . Calling actually Spain to the union Castilla and Aragon is wrong. Portugal historically is as Spain as Castilla. Only between 1580-1640 when Portugal,Castilla and Aragon were dominated by the same Austria dinasty , you can call it Spain.

The pacts that derive from the unification of the different kingdoms and Crowns of Spain, thanks to the marriage between Isabel I of Castille and Fernando II of Aragon "transferred" to the Crown of Aragon, on one hand, the scope over the lands situated to the East of the Iberian peninsula and n the other hand, to the Kingdom of Castille, the lands situated to the West.

But one thing was that the Crown of Aragon didn't have the competence to undertake ventures of official character in America and a different thing was that they participated from an individual view.

The Indias colonization belongs to every Spanish nationality: they all are missionaries, soldiers and businessmen who fight, discover, govern, found and settle. The discovery of America turned into alliance and base of common interest. It was not in vain that Colombus called the first island Hispaniola (and not Castilian).

[Amapola]

Part of the Aragonese Crown, not really of the Kingdom. But Catalans could be princeps of the Aragonese, which doesn't mean prince, but high leader. That is why Catalonia is a Principality in spite of having been no kingdom.



It was forbidden to trade or to go there as a Catalan invader. But several Catalan priests and soldiers/militia went there given that they served the cause of Castile... Just have a look at the history of California.

It was Luis de Santángel, member of the Aragonian court, that gave aid to Christopher Columbus to tackle the adventure to the Indies, after the refusal from the Great Men of Castille. The Catholic Monarchs allowed the journey after the pressures of the Valencian Santángel. Once back from his first journey, Colombus was welcomed in Barcelona in el Salló del Tinell to be precise. Despite the few chronicles that have survived, the people of Barcelona gave him an enthusiastic reception.

Bernat de Boíl, Catalan adviser of Fernando el Católico, apostolic vicar of the Western Indies: the thre first founded churches in America were dedicated to Montserrat, Santa Tecla -patron saint of Tarragona- and Santa Eulalia -patron saint of Barcelona.

Jaume Ferrer de Blanes- Catalan- was appointed to fix the limits between Spain and Portugal in the recently discovered American in 1493.

Other Catalans:
Ramón Pané, Colombus' right-hand man, the first to publish a writing about the customs and languages of the Amerindians and the first one to speak an Amerindian language.

Soldiers: (without personal details, which would make this very long)
Joan Orpí Pou
Pere Margarit
Miquel Ballester
Joan Grau de Toloriu
Bartolomeu Ferrer
Jaume Rasquí
Miquel de Rifòs
Pere Alberni Teixidor
Pere Fages Beleta
Francesc Jorba Ferran
Esteve Rodríguez Miró
(and many more...)

There were also dealers like Joan Claret (Barcelona, s. XVI) and Salvador Samà Martí (Vilanova, 1.797). The government employees also had a wide Catalan representation, not to mention the historians or ecclesiastics...

[Comte Arnau]

As I said, I'm not saying there were no Catalans going to the Americas. But it was always in the name of Castile, as it was the raising power. Aragon had clearly begun its decadence. The people in charge were always Castilian, the bulge of settlers were Castilians, and so Castilian were the language and customs imposed in America.

The monopoly of the Andalusian harbours was evident. It wasn't until 1702 that the Spanish king authorized two yearly Catalan ships to the Americas, and via Seville. Three years later the Catalans could send four ships regardless of the Sevillian monopoly, but it was abolished again after the Spanish conquest of Barcelona in 1714.

[Amapola]

As I said, I'm not saying there were no Catalans going to the Americas. But it was always in the name of Castile, as it was the raising power. Aragon had clearly begun its decadence. The people in charge were always Castilian, the bulge of settlers were Castilians, and so Castilian were the language and customs imposed in America.
However, considering the expansion to the West was officially Castilian –and Aragonese to the East- the importance of the positions and functions exercised by Catalans is surprising (without taking into account that the very Colombus was likely Catalan himself); including military discovery and trade (often denied) which lead to the existence of Catalan conquerors like Joan Orpí Pou, conquistador of the areas of Unare and Aragua and founder of Nueva Barcelona. Pere Margarit named the Margarita islands in the Caribbean. As an historian of the Spanish heroic deed, Joan Cristòfor Calbet d’Estrella excelled himself in particular, writer and royal reporter of the Indies, member of the Spanish Court and private tutor of the princes. He was also the biographer of the emperor Charles V.

Permit me to add something for our delight in this conversation:

“¡Colom! També l’estrella del mar aquí invocava,
l’estrella que la terra promesa li ha mostrat,
per ço en lo primer temple que América fundava
se col la Moreneta gentil de Montserrat”.

Mossèn Cinto Verdaguer

“...Troba Colon navilis, i en llur tosca
ala afrontant, magnànim, la mar fosca,
la humanitat li dóna el nom de boig;
al geni que la duia, en sa volada
de promissió a la terra somniada,
com Moisés per les aigües del Mar Roig.
Lo savi ancià, que des d’un cim l’obira,
sent estremir lo cor com una lira;
veu de l’àngel d’Espanya, hermós i bell,
que ahir amb ses ales d’or cobrí a Granada,
eixamplar-les avui com l’estelada
i fer-ne l’ampla terra son mantell.
Veu murgonar amb l’espanyol imperi
l’arbre sant de la creu a altre hemisferi
i el món a la seva ombra reflorir;
encarnar-s’hi del cel la saviesa;
i diu a qui s’enlaira a sa escomesa:
-Vola, Colon...; ara jo puc morir!"

L'Atlàntida



The monopoly of the Andalusian harbours was evident. It wasn't until 1702 that the Spanish king authorized two yearly Catalan ships to the Americas, and via Seville. Three years later the Catalans could send four ships regardless of the Sevillian monopoly,

Seville was indeed ideal due to his strategic location and experience as a commercial port since antiquity. Besides being a common practice amongst all the European powers, that monopoly facilitated the trade control, and the tax collection, as soon as it was abolished immigration and the importation of slaves increased too.


but it was abolished again after the Spanish conquest of Barcelona in 1714.
Do you mean el siege of Barcelona?
Half way through the XVIII century, America was not banned to Catalan trade (Fundación de la Real Compañía de de comercio de Barcelona a Indias), being the colonial trade one of the most dynamic sector to boost the Catalan economy growth in the 50’s of the XVIII. In other words, American market has been a target repeatedly achieved, even though it was through the thorny procedure of the official registration in Cádiz.