The Augsburg Confession.

[The Lawspeaker]

THE AUGSBURG CONFESSION. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds3.iii.ii.html)
Creeds of the Evangelical Protestant Churches.


[The Latin text is from the editio princeps, 1531, as printed in the best editions of the 'Book of Concord,' and especially (with all the various readings) in the Corpus Reformatorum, ed. Bindseil, Vol. XXVI. (1858), pp. 263–336. I have inserted in brackets the most important additions of the German text, and marked in foot-notes the chief alterations of the edition of 1540. The English translation (in the style of the sixteenth century) was prepared (1868), and at my request carefully revised for this work (1874), by my friend, The Rev. Dr. Charles P. Krauth, Vice-Provost of the University of Pennsylvania, and Professor of Theology in the Evangelical Lutheran Seminary, Philadelphia. First English translation by Richard Taverner, London, 1536; recent translations, more or less complete, by S. S. Schmucker (1834): E. Hazelius (1841), Ambrose and Socrates Henkel (1851 and 1854). See Vol. I. § 41, pp. 225 sqq.]

[Wyn]

This isn't Sacred Scripture.

[The Lawspeaker]

This isn't Sacred Scripture.
It is. Not to Catholics but it is influential for a lot of Protestant groups. There is more then your Catholic Church.

[Murphy]

It is. Not to Catholics but it is influential for a lot of Protestant groups. There is more then your Catholic Church.

Even the majority of Protestants wouldn't consider it Sacred Scripture.. never mind the various Orthodox communions.. you've simply placed it in the wrong section, Asega.

[Wyn]

It is. Not to Catholics but it is influential for a lot of Protestant groups. There is more then your Catholic Church.

No, it isn't Sacred Scripture, even for Protestants.

[The Lawspeaker]

No, it isn't Sacred Scripture, even for Protestants.
But it is influential and personally don't care what you think about it.

[Murphy]

But it is influential and personally don't care what you think about it.

But it isn't Sacred Scripture.

[The Lawspeaker]

But it isn't Sacred Scripture.

The Augsburg Confession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg_Confession), also known as the "Augustana" from its Latin name, Confessio Augustana, is the primary confession of faith of the Lutheran Church and one of the most important documents of the Lutheran reformation.

[Murphy]

Tell a Lutheran that the Augsburg Confession is Sacred Scripture and you'll have one of three reactions. He'll either laugh at you and charitably explain why you are wrong. He'll either shake his head in pity, pat your back, and move along wondering what has happened to society. Or he'll try and burn you for a witch.

[Wyn]

But it is influential and personally don't care what you think about it.

What you or I think is meaningless in this conversation.




A confession of faith is not Sacred Scripture, and nor is an important document.

[Osweo]

Is the Nicene Creed 'sacred scripture'?

[Wyn]

Is the Nicene Creed 'sacred scripture'?

It is not Sacred Scripture.

....ye layeth a Filioque-based trap, Osweo. Sacred Scripture does not change, the Nicene Creed can change.

I suspect that you are planning to portray the Nicene Creed as Sacred Scripture due to the "Orthodox Christian" position on the Filioque. But remember, their objection is not that it cannot be changed, but rather that it was changed by unlawful means.

[Murphy]

Is the Nicene Creed 'sacred scripture'?

I flipped through my Bible.. couldn't find it sorry :coffee:!

[poiuytrewq0987]

The John boy strikes back!

[Murphy]

The John boy strikes back!

Jon not John.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Jon not John.

If you insist...
(http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=JON&defid=2032477)

[Murphy]

If you insist...
(http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=JON&defid=2032477)

I insist.

[Loki]

I flipped through my Bible.. couldn't find it sorry :coffee:!

Catholics actually use Bibles?! :eek:

[Murphy]

Catholics actually use Bibles?! :eek:

Do you want picture evidence? You know.. there are readings from the Gospel at every Mass.

[Loki]

Do you want picture evidence? You know.. there are readings from the Gospel at every Mass.

Yeah I know ... the priests read it for you ... but do ordinary Catholics actually read the Bible, or only rely on the priestly interpretation that is spoon-fed to them by the clergy? :coffee:

[Murphy]

Yeah I know ... the priests read it for you ...

And we also have it in our missals ;).


but do ordinary Catholics actually read the Bible

Yes. You know the the rosary its self is a meditation on the mysteries of the Gospel?


or only rely on the priestly interpretation that is spoon-fed to them by the clergy? :coffee:

We rely on the definitive teaching of Holy Mother Church, Christ's Church, founded by God. Where as a Protestant's guiding authority is not God but.. himself? Wow, no wonder there are thousands upon thousands of denominations in America alone ;).

[Loki]

We rely on the definitive teaching of Holy Mother Church, Christ's Church, founded by God. Where as a Protestant's guiding authority is not God but.. himself? Wow, no wonder there are thousands upon thousands of denominations in America alone ;).

John 3:8 "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

[Lutiferre]

John 3:8 "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

A shame for those primitives who are merely born of the sinful flesh that God created, that "old incompetent bastard" :rolleyes:

[Murphy]

I accept thy challenge, dear Loki.


The Spirit breatheth where he will, and thou hearest his voice; but thou knowest not whence he cometh, nor whither he goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Well, Loki.

If one accepts the Trinitarian doctrine of One God and Three Divine Perons, one also must accept that they share the same Divine Will. They cannot be in opposition with one another. What God is does not allow it.

Therefore the Holy Ghost does not act independently of the Son and the Father. However, according to the Protestant interpretation of this verse, the only conclusion is that the Holy Ghost does act independently of the Will of the Son and the Father, when one looks at the insurmountable scriptural evidence of Christ, telling His Apostles, upon whom He founded His Church, that He would direct the Holy Ghost to sanctify and preserve them.

Cherry-pikcing verses and interpretating them to your own agenda doesn't help when one looks at the over-all picture of the Bible.

[Piparskeggr]

Hail all;

As a former Catholic (and long standing ex-Christian), an offer of my memories, if I may?

As a boy and youth, I was taught from Catechism and Missal, and to follow Church Dogma and Canon Law...the Priests and Lectors were the Bible readers; the former from the Gospels and the latter from the Epistles, the "Body of the Church" (ie, the Laity) were not.

I am also old enough to remember the Tridentine (alias Latin) Mass and the beauty of pre-Vatican II church interiors.

Within this, it is my considered opinion that, within all branches of Christianity, the only Sacred texts are those known as the Old and New Testaments, with the Apocrypha being problematic, at worst.

Other writings can, in my view, be considered as sacred in inspiration, such as the "Peace Prayer" of Saint Francis of Assisi or the hymn "Onward Christian Soldiers..."

However, creeds such as the Nicean or the Augsburg Confession are dogmatic add-ons, which try and put an overlay of mankind over the revealed truths within...

That being written, I do prefer the relative simplicity and heartfelt joy contained within a natural, autochthonic faithway such as the modern revival of the native spirituality of my northern European forebears in which I have grown these past 20 some-odd years.

[Murphy]

As a former Catholic (and long standing ex-Christian), an offer of my memories, if I may?

Always welcome :), I am especially interested in hearing from those who remember Catholic life pre-Vatican II..


the Priests and Lectors were the Bible readers; the former from the Gospels and the latter from the Epistles,

I was unfair of characterisation of the Scripture reading at Mass. Pre-Vatican II, as I am in no doubt you are aware having served at the Altar as a young man, the Scriptures read at the Mass were not meant as instructional. They were not intended as instructional words, but rather they were (and are in the continued celebration of the old form) prayers. As Christ prayed the Scriptures on the Cross (Father, why hast thou forsaken me?) so do our priests pray the Scriptures at the Altar of God, the foot of the Cross on Calvary.

But that does not take away from the Catholic faithful's knowledge and study of the Bible.


the "Body of the Church" (ie, the Laity) were not.

I disagree with you here, and do not take it as disrespect. I believe the lairty were well versed in the spirit of Scripture, if not the letter. The rosary being a fine example. As I said, the rosary is the meditation of the mysteries of the Gospel. School children were taught the Biblical stories nd the morals contained within. Catholics were not ignorant of the Scriptures.

The belief that we are arises from the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura, and the denial of Sacred Tradition.


I am also old enough to remember the Tridentine (alias Latin) Mass and the beauty of pre-Vatican II church interiors.

Don't worry, they can still be found ;). Though you are no longer a practicing Catholic, I am sure you feel some of the pain we Catholics who were robbed after Vatican II, of seeing Altar rails ripped our of Chapels and the langugae of the Church cast asunder.


Within this, it is my considered opinion that, within all branches of Christianity, the only Sacred texts are those known as the Old and New Testaments, with the Apocrypha being problematic, at worst.

Spot on :thumbs up!

[Piparskeggr]

{snip} Three Divine Perons {snip}

Juan, Evita and who?

:wink

[Murphy]

Juan, Evita and who?

:wink

Blame the keypad not me :D?

[Piparskeggr]

Blame the keypad not me :D?

Jon, I think you are a believing Catholic with whom I will enjoy conversing.

My hunting buddy Jeff was also.

[Murphy]

Jon, I think you are a believing Catholic with whom I will enjoy conversing.

I am glad, and feel likewise. But be forewarned, Lutiferre once described me as a Viking saint: mostly silent, in conformist reverence, and only with one response to an enemy of the Church: the axe :D!


My hunting buddy Jeff was also.

The closest I have been to hunting was ferreting :p!

[Piparskeggr]

Always welcome :), I am especially interested in hearing from those who remember Catholic life pre-Vatican II..

While I disagree with some of what you post, I do think your words add...


I was unfair of characterization of the Scripture reading at Mass. Pre-Vatican II, as I am in no doubt you are aware having served at the Altar as a young man, the Scriptures read at the Mass were not meant as instructional. They were not intended as instructional words, but rather they were (and are in the continued celebration of the old form) prayers. As Christ prayed the Scriptures on the Cross (Father, why hast thou forsaken me?) so do our priests pray the Scriptures at the Altar of God, the foot of the Cross on Calvary.

I never served as an Altar Boy, just as a member of the congregation.

The best priests I remember from my youth (Father Vito and Father Francis) did look upon the Readings as instructional, as well as sacred.

The Church would have become a better place if these two men had become Bishops, though I do believe that local parishes were better for having had them as pastors.


But that does not take away from the Catholic faithful's knowledge and study of the Bible.

Perhaps the change is since V 2??? I do not remember any encouragement to stretch beyond what the priest gave us...


I disagree with you here, and do not take it as disrespect. I believe the laity were well versed in the spirit of Scripture, if not the letter. The rosary being a fine example. As I said, the rosary is the meditation of the mysteries of the Gospel. School children were taught the Biblical stories and the morals contained within. Catholics were not ignorant of the Scriptures.

I will agree here. My mom is, and my dad was, a devout Catholic. Both, highly Spiritual Catholics, both a bit out of place in "Modern Catholicism." My mom's father, he wears an Icon of Padre Pio (who is a cousin on his maternal side) every day. Papa D'Orazio's leg was healed by Padre Pio when he was a boy in Italy.


The belief that we are arises from the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura, and the denial of Sacred Tradition.

Even though I am formerly Catholic and ex-Christian, I have (I believe) personal knowledge of the Holy within my life; Sacred Tradition does both exist and live.


Don't worry, they can still be found ;). Though you are no longer a practicing Catholic, I am sure you feel some of the pain we Catholics who were robbed after Vatican II, of seeing Altar rails ripped our of Chapels and the language of the Church cast asunder.

We had a beautiful church, until the "Parish Council" took charge...marble, frescoes, murals, mostly gone, hell, my cradle church IS closed...a victim of Diocesan cost cutting.

I am Asatru. However, my beliefs, to be whole, give honor to all my ancestors.

Saint Anne's, where my parents were married, where I and my siblings were baptized...it IS a part of my past and my foundation.


Spot on :thumbs up!

If nothing else, I can spot Sacred versus inspired works. :D

[Sally]

Catholics actually use Bibles?! :eek:

I read Scripture every day, and (as mentioned before) the readings for daily Mass always include material from both the Old and New Testament. I always follow along in my missal; I am not passive. ;)

Most Catholics are poorly catechised, though, and don't receive much ongoing formation. Even if they do, a lot of teaching isn't really consistent with what the Magisterium teaches.

[Murphy]

While I disagree with some of what you post, I do think your words add...

:thumb001:!


I never served as an Altar Boy, just as a member of the congregation.

Aah! I was never an altar boy my self :p.


The best priests I remember from my youth (Father Vito and Father Francis) did look upon the Readings as instructional, as well as sacred.

The Church would have become a better place if these two men had become Bishops, though I do believe that local parishes were better for having had them as pastors.

Understandable. But on the other hand, the Church needed strong Bishops at the time, there were not enough :(.


Perhaps the change is since V 2??? I do not remember any encouragement to stretch beyond what the priest gave us...

Aah, but what the priest gave was enough ;). The Catholic lived the Scriptures every day of his life and in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It's a mistake to think one needs to be familiar with the in's-and-out's of the Scriptual verses when one lives what they preach.

We were handed Sacred Tradition from the Apostles and Early Church fathers before the canon of the Bible was even codified.


I will agree here. My mom is, and my dad was, a devout Catholic. Both, highly Spiritual Catholics, both a bit out of place in "Modern Catholicism." My mom's father, he wears an Icon of Padre Pio (who is a cousin on his maternal side) every day. Papa D'Orazio's leg was healed by Padre Pio when he was a boy in Italy.

Interesting family history :thumb001:! I have a good deal of religious in my own side. A good few of my maternal grandfather's cousins are either members of religious orders or clergy in the secular priesthood. I shall need to ask him some day which orders his family are connected with, but being Irish I think they're very probably Carmelites or Jesuits.


We had a beautiful church, until the "Parish Council" took charge...marble, frescoes, murals, mostly gone, hell, my cradle church IS closed...a victim of Diocesan cost cutting.

That's very sad :(. Luckily, the parish where I attend the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine Mass) of the Roman Rite on Sunday's is a lovely little Church, with marble flooring and the original High Altar. Not to mention altar rails :D!

The only down side is the marble Novus Ordo "table" although lovely marble, is smack-dab in front of the High Altar :(. It mad the Missa Canta Mass for Corpus Christi last year murder.


Saint Anne's, where my parents were married, where I and my siblings were baptized...it IS a part of my past and my foundation.

What a coincidence! Yestarday on the Feast of Our Lady of Mt Carmel, I was invested into the Brown Scapular at a Carmelite Parish under the patronage of St Anne :D!


If nothing else, I can spot Sacred versus inspired works. :D

;)!

[Murphy]

I read Scripture every day, and (as mentioned before) the readings for daily Mass always include material from both the Old and New Testament. I always follow along in my missal; I am not passive. ;)

Sally, you are a better Catholic than I will ever be. I really do need to start reading my Scriptures more often :tongue!


Most Catholics are poorly catechised, though, and don't receive much ongoing formation. Even if they do, a lot of teaching isn't really consistent with what the Magisterium teaches.

Exactly :(. One of the many reasons most "Catholics" today use artificial contraception and believe abortion is a-ok.

[Osweo]

Juan, Evita and who?

:wink

and Azzurro.

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/05/miller_products/image/peroni.jpg

[Amapola]

Mierda, coño!