Genetics of Occitans

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

So I found that the French side of my Mother's family has Occitan origins. I know very little about them, except Catalan language is closest to Occitan and they are suppose to be close to North-West Italians and Iberians.

Who are they closest to, genetically speaking?

[Gaston]

Half of France was occitan-speaking so people in this half of the country are probably not homogenous.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Half of France was occitan-speaking so people in this half of the country are probably not homogenous.

Hm. Good point. My ancestors were the Loubatiere family which is an Occitan surname meaning 'wolf hunter' or something like that. They came from Lasalle, Gard department, Languedoc France. Still, if you had to say who the Occitans are closest to who would it be?

[Gooding]

Hm. Good point. My ancestors were the Loubatiere family which is an Occitan surname meaning 'wolf hunter' or something like that. They came from Lasalle, Gard department, Languedoc France. Still, if you had to say who the Occitans are closest to who would it be?

I'd surmise that they wouldn't be too far from the Catalans, so Spanish, maybe? http://www.midi-france.info/190305_catalan.htm

[Cristiano viejo]

Valle de Arán in Northern Spain, within Catalonia, has a true Occitan language.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Valle de Arán in Northern Spain, within Catalonia, has a true Occitan language.

Very interesting thank you for the information, I did not know that...

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italy

So, if Occitans are closest to North Italians and Catalans (and I also heard Aragonese are close) are we going by this definition of Northern Italy? Also how close are they to the Basque? And the rest of the Spaniards besides Catalans and Aragonese...and how close to the Portuguese? Also how close to other Italians?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Half of France was occitan-speaking so people in this half of the country are probably not homogenous.

Has there been any genetic studies on Occitans?

[Petalpusher]

Occitan is virtually a big region up to almost Lyon, so it's less southern genetically as a whole than some sample from Southern France.

Only autosmal i know including Occitans is K14, mine look like this :

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South-German @ 8,409818
2 Occitan @ 8,903707
3 Welsh @ 10,402583
4 Belgian @ 10,402592
5 Serb_Serbia @ 10,743801
6 Serb_BH @ 10,894726
7 French_South @ 11,03342
8 Mixed_European @ 11,207163
9 CEU @ 11,320756
10 N,_European @ 11,332889

That particular test didn't include any general French sample at all or North (that is usual), so it's diffcult to compare but i get it just behind South Germans.

Languedoc/Gard would probably be more related to Iberian or Italian than this sample and closer to the southern one.

[Cristiano viejo]

Very interesting thank you for the information, I did not know that...

Valle de Arán is an interesant place. It belongs to Catalonia although historically it belonged to Aragón. They speak its own Aranese language, which is indeed an Occitan language, much more than Catalan language, although the main language there is the Castilian one (aka Spanish :rolleyes:).
They are famous because they are against the independence of Catalonia and have expressed many times that if Catalonia gets the independence of Spain they will separate of Catalonia.
Although they belong Catalonia they have their own statutes of autonomy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_d%27Aran

[ius semper]

It is time to reach again
http://www.septimaniaedicions.com/images/fotos/gran/1296270441.jpg
http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2010/259/e/7/catalunya_occitania__final_by_mausetta-d2yunb6.jpg

LOL nah just kidding I like my castillian neighbours

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

It is time to reach again
http://www.septimaniaedicions.com/images/fotos/gran/1296270441.jpg
http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2010/259/e/7/catalunya_occitania__final_by_mausetta-d2yunb6.jpg

LOL nah just kidding I like my castillian neighbours

Greetings my Catalan brother...

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

So how close are Occitans to Aragonese, Castilians, Leonese, Galicians, Cantabrians, Asturians, Valencians, etc. and Andalusians? More importantly how close are they to the Basque? So, if they are closer to Catalans and North Italians than anyone else, who are they closest to after that? Other French? Or other Spaniards or Italians? Finally, how close are they to the Portuguese? Are they closer to Andalusians than Germans?

[ius semper]

Greetings my Catalan brother...

Ever been in catalonia? The real one i mean, not the multi ethnic barcelona of course

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Ever been in catalonia? The real one i mean, not the multi ethnic barcelona of course

I am afraid not, I don't know that much about Catalans either...all I know is they are Occitans' brothers.

[ius semper]

So how close are Occitans to Aragonese, Castilians, Leonese, Galicians, Cantabrians, Asturians, Valencians, etc. and Andalusians? More importantly how close are they to the Basque? So, if they are closer to Catalans and North Italians than anyone else, who are they closest to after that? Other French? Or other Spaniards or Italians? Finally, how close are they to the Portuguese? Are they closer to Andalusians than Germans?

They resemble the catalans and aragonese the most. Feattures normally very fair skin and brown hair and eyes. The french are half german so... not to much and northern italians also may have some connection whith them. They are not close to the portuguese. And they are closer to germans than to andalusians but they eould be closer to castillian than germans. Forget about the basque, they have their own phenotype.

[ius semper]

I am afraid not, I don't know that much about Catalans either...all I know is they are Occitans' brothers.

Yes but remember that the occitans are already dead. They have been absorbed by the french culture and language. Im afraid occitania doesnt exist anymore...

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

They resemble the catalans and aragonese the most. Feattures normally very fair skin and brown hair and eyes. The french are half german so... not to much and northern italians also may have some connection whith them. They are not close to the portuguese. And they are closer to germans than to andalusians but they eould be closer to castillian than germans. Forget about the basque, they have their own phenotype.

Thank you for your answer. I am not sure if Occitans have much in common with Germans, though, the North French do but Occitans are different breed. They might have something in common with Southern Germans because shared Celtic origins. That is I think the Occitans descend from Gauls don't they? Otherwise I don't think they are that close to Germans, and obviously closer to Catalans and North-West Italians than anyone else, and Aragonese...

As for Italians, Tyroleans are Germans. Other North Italians are still Mediterraneans and the only link they would have with Germans would be SOUTHERN Germans, who are closer to them and have Celtic blood, just like North Italians.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Yes but remember that the occitans are already dead. They have been absorbed by the french culture and language. Im afraid occitania doesnt exist anymore...

Isn't there something of an Occitan revival? They are as dead as the Welsh IMO they are still there...there's still Occitan nationalistic element as well.

[ius semper]

Thank you for your answer. I am not sure if Occitans have much in common with Germans, though, the North French do but Occitans are different breed. They might have something in common with Southern Germans because shared Celtic origins. That is I think the Occitans descend from Gauls don't they? Otherwise I don't think they are that close to Germans, and obviously closer to Catalans and North-West Italians than anyone else, and Aragonese...

As for Italians, Tyroleans are Germans. Other North Italians are still Mediterraneans and the only link they would have with Germans would be SOUTHERN Germans, who are closer to them and have Celtic blood, just like North Italians.

Yes. I mean occitans catalans aragonese... theyre all western european IMO italians on the other hand, like southern castillians and valencians, look distinctly southern euros.

[ius semper]

Isn't there something of an Occitan revival? They are as dead as the Welsh IMO they are still there...there's still Occitan nationalistic element as well.

Yes, but not like in catalonia. Catalonia is very alive unlikebour northern neighbours, aragonese have been absorved by castillians too...

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Yes but remember that the occitans are already dead. They have been absorbed by the french culture and language. Im afraid occitania doesnt exist anymore...

The more North in France you go the closer you get to Germans. My family came from Gard department which borders the Mediterranean sea, and people with that name mostly come from there. There was a famous man with the name from Montpellier and another from Agde. This is the southernmost part of France...

[ius semper]

The more North in France you go the closer you get to Germans. My family came from Gard department which borders the Mediterranean sea, and people with that name mostly come from there. There was a famous man with the name from Montpellier and another from Agde. This is the southernmost part of France...

Montpellier was catalan and stolen by the fucking french. But anyway I find that both catalans and occitans resemble culturally more castillians and physically more french. French are not germanic, they do have a germanic component but its not the basic one

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Montpellier was catalan and stolen by the fucking french. But anyway I find that both catalans and occitans resemble culturally more castillians and physically more french. French are not germanic, they do have a germanic component but its not the basic one

I am probably closer to Catalans than I think then, I didn't know it used to belong to Catalans.

Even the North French are different from Germans, I think. But the Germanic component is absent among Occitans, the only tie they have with Germans is to the southernmost Germans who have some old Hallstatt blood, and I think the Gauls were related to them...they are closer to them than Andalusians anyway. I wonder if they are closer to Galicians than Southern Germans...?

I agree about Catalans, Occitans looking different from Italians and other Spaniards, they are darker than Germans because they are in the sun more but they are also lighter than other Meds. Here is a famous Occitan:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Ingres%2C_Self-portrait.jpg

Well he was from Languedoc...and you are right about the Basque they are their own people...

[Gooding]

Yes but remember that the occitans are already dead. They have been absorbed by the french culture and language. Im afraid occitania doesnt exist anymore...

Well, perhaps that is so in France today ( although I believe there's quite a movement of revival among people who want to reintroduce their language, much like the Cornish Celtic Revival today..http://www.midi-france.info/190314_revival.htm , http://www.cornwall-calling.co.uk/cornish-language/cornish-revival.htm) and the French Huguenots as a whole were also absorbed into the dominant Anglo- American culture ( even some of my relatives have Huguenot blood from other sides of their families.. my own French blood was transmitted by Catholics :)), but perhaps it is possible ( if " all ships sail in the same direction," if there is consensus and agreement among the parties involved) that there might be a revival of Occitan cultural traditions.. I mean, if Scotch- Irish Appalachians are proud of Huguenot ancestors who died three hundred years ago, surely Occitans in France, Cornishmen in England and French Huguenot descendants in the United States can each try to revive and adapt cultural traditions that might otherwise be lost.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I wish when people say Occitans are close to North Italians they would define Northern Italy. What do they mean by North Italians? Do they mean just North-West Italians or are we to think the Occitans are also close to North-East Italians?

[ius semper]

Well, perhaps that is so in France today ( although I believe there's quite a movement of revival among people who want to reintroduce their language, much like the Cornish Celtic Revival today..http://www.midi-france.info/190314_revival.htm , http://www.cornwall-calling.co.uk/cornish-language/cornish-revival.htm) and the French Huguenots as a whole were also absorbed into the dominant Anglo- American culture ( even some of my relatives have Huguenot blood from other sides of their families.. my own French blood was transmitted by Catholics :)), but perhaps it is possible ( if " all ships sail in the same direction," if there is consensus and agreement among the parties involved) that there might be a revival of Occitan cultural traditions.. I mean, if Scotch- Irish Appalachians are proud of Huguenot ancestors who died three hundred years ago, surely Occitans in France, Cornishmen in England and French Huguenot descendants in the United States can each try to revive and adapt cultural traditions that might otherwise be lost.

France is a centralistband monolingual nation, in 50 years occitania will have dissappeared. Spain on the other hand is now more federal and has allowed catalonia to resurge again, remember that franco wanted only a castillian and fully catholic spain.

[Gooding]

I wish when people say Occitans are close to North Italians they would define Northern Italy. What do they mean by North Italians? Do they mean just North-West Italians or are we to think the Occitans are also close to North-East Italians?

That would be a question I think it would be best for an Italian to answer, so where's Sikeliot, Journeyman, Trogdor? :) I'd also like to know if Provencals are closer to North Italians in the Ligurian sense or a more Germanic sense..

[ius semper]

I wish when people say Occitans are close to North Italians they would define Northern Italy. What do they mean by North Italians? Do they mean just North-West Italians or are we to think the Occitans are also close to North-East Italians?

I mean theres not a unique phenotype for a territory. Northern italians are meds with some germanic component but theyre nothing like bavarians. And NATIVE galicians are mainly atlantids

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

France is a centralistband monolingual nation, in 50 years occitania will have dissappeared. Spain on the other hand is now more federal and has allowed catalonia to resurge again, remember that franco wanted only a castillian and fully catholic spain.

I hate Franco! :shakefist

Anyways if Occitans die then we still live on in spirit with the Catalans...who are our closest brothers...

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I mean theres not a unique phenotype for a territory. Northern italians are meds with some germanic component but theyre nothing like bavarians. And NATIVE galicians are mainly atlantids

I think Atlanto-Med is most popular among the Occitans, Catalans...

[ius semper]

I hate Franco! :shakefist

Anyways if Occitans die then we still live on in spirit with the Catalans...who are our closest brothers...

That was awesome! You almost made me cry! Lol
I also have aragonese blood and a little castillian maybe too.

[ius semper]

I think Atlanto-Med is most popular among the Occitans, Catalans...

Atlantomed is a very castillian thing. Catalans and occitans are also atlantomed but you can distinguish them from castillians.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

That was awesome! You almost made me cry! Lol
I also have aragonese blood and a little castillian maybe too.

Looks like you would be pretty close to south French/Occitans.

Just to get an idea I wonder if Occitans are closer to Portuguese or South Germans....

[ius semper]

Looks like you would be pretty close to south French/Occitans.

Just to get an idea I wonder if Occitans are closer to Portuguese or South Germans....

http://teleprograma.fotogramas.es/var/plan_site/storage/images/series_tv/2012/octubre/todos_los_hombres_de_isabel/millan_001/5731159-1-esl-ES/millan_001_principalGaleriaRetrato.jpg this is what an old school castillian looks like.

[Gooding]

I hate Franco! :shakefist

Anyways if Occitans die then we still live on in spirit with the Catalans...who are our closest brothers...
One thing about culture is that it's always changing. An Occitan of yesterday might become a French Canadian, a French Cajun, a Lorrainer or a Briton in three generations' time. I refuse to give up hope for the Occitans. If they die out in Europe, who's to say that Occitan descendants in Latin America, the United States and Canada wouldn't try to revive their culture in their respective regions? There are people in widely dispersed areas of the country who are so proud of their French Huguenot ancestry that they help fund the only French Huguenot Church here in America http://www.huguenot-church.org/ . Their French blood quantum in general might not be that large, but they remember and it's amazing how much revenue sentiment can generate.

[ius semper]

One thing about culture is that it's always changing. An Occitan of yesterday might become a French Canadian, a French Cajun, a Lorrainer or a Briton in three generations' time. I refuse to give up hope for the Occitans. If they die out in Europe, who's to say that Occitan descendants in Latin America, the United States and Canada wouldn't try to revive their culture in their respective regions? There are people in widely dispersed areas of the country who are so proud of their French Huguenot ancestry that they help fund the only French Huguenot Church here in America http://www.huguenot-church.org/ . Their French blood quantum in general might not be that large, but they remember and it's amazing how much revenue sentiment can generate.

the only french substract in the new world is québec and those are french nationalist (look at their flag, you'll see the " fleur de lys"), I doubt those will revive occitan culture someday...

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

One thing about culture is that it's always changing. An Occitan of yesterday might become a French Canadian, a French Cajun, a Lorrainer or a Briton in three generations' time. I refuse to give up hope for the Occitans. If they die out in Europe, who's to say that Occitan descendants in Latin America, the United States and Canada wouldn't try to revive their culture in their respective regions? There are people in widely dispersed areas of the country who are so proud of their French Huguenot ancestry that they help fund the only French Huguenot Church here in America http://www.huguenot-church.org/ . Their French blood quantum in general might not be that large, but they remember and it's amazing how much revenue sentiment can generate.

Agreed 100 percent man.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

the only french substract in the new world is québec and those are french nationalist (look at their flag, you'll see the " fleur de lys"), I doubt those will revive occitan culture someday...

Have you forgot Cajuns? lol

But even people who don't speak French, but have French blood, could try to revive it.

[ius semper]

Have you forgot Cajuns? lol

But even people who don't speak French, but have French blood, could try to revive it.

Something france has done properly is stablish their pride among their colonies, look at québec, they fu**ing love france. Spain (castille to be fair) on the other hand... All the ex colonies hate them

[Gaston]

That would be a question I think it would be best for an Italian to answer, so where's Sikeliot, Journeyman, Trogdor? :) I'd also like to know if Provencals are closer to North Italians in the Ligurian sense or a more Germanic sense..

Based on few Southern French individuals I know on 23andme, they're closer to other French and some Southern Germans, and only then to some Iberians and some Northern Italians. Southern France is not that mediterranean despite bordering the sea. In fact, together a few Yugoslavs from Croatia/Slovenia, they are the least Mediterranean people living on the Mediterranean shore and are pretty much core Europeans.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Something france has done properly is stablish their pride among their colonies, look at québec, they fu**ing love france. Spain (castille to be fair) on the other hand... All the ex colonies hate them

Well even the descendants of French huguenots, who are only a little bit French (I am one) are very proud of their heritage, and we don't speak French or anything but blood is important. I would do everything in my power to help the Occitan cause, even from this part of the world, and believe me it makes a difference. For example all of Ireland might still be British today without the support of many Irish-Americans...diaspora communities are very powerful..

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Based on few Southern French individuals I know on 23andme, they're closer to other French and some Southern Germans, and only then to some Iberians and some Northern Italians. Southern France is not that mediterranean despite bordering the sea. In fact, together a few Yugoslavs from Croatia/Slovenia, they are the least Mediterranean people living on the Mediterranean shore and are pretty much core Europeans.

I can believe that. Anyways Occitans I know are close to Catalans...I don't know about south French or anything like that. My family has a last name that is not French but Occitan, it's actually from the Occitan language...my ancestors came from Lasalle in the Gard department of Languedoc.

[Gooding]

the only french substract in the new world is québec and those are french nationalist (look at their flag, you'll see the " fleur de lys"), I doubt those will revive occitan culture someday...

I certainly agree and the Francophones in Louisiana are far more interested in preserving and promoting their French heritage than they are in cherrypicking between their Occitan, Norman, Breton, Arpitan, Picard or Lorrainais elements. I'm just saying that if the younger generation is interested ( which they probably won't be), there's no reason they couldn't have some sort of cultural revival. Right now, I think it's a step forward that they're interested in their French origins.. Anglo teachers have suppressed the use of the French language in southern Louisiana for generations in favor of Southern American English. The fact that some of the Cajuns and Creoles are interested in relearning and adopting their ancestral varieties of French is definitely a step in the right direction, in my opinion and I'm speaking as an Anglo myself : sometimes you'll hear a purely Pecot ( my great grandmother's family) " voice" in my posts, but this time I'm just typing as a person interested in all sorts of cultural preservation. If some Perrets, if some Bossiers, if some Armelins and others discover a curiosity about their heritage in certain regions of France, that might spread and people might become interested in relearning things. Maybe not in my lifetime, but maybe in the lifetime of my daughter's grandchildren.

[ius semper]

Based on few Southern French individuals I know on 23andme, they're closer to other French and some Southern Germans, and only then to some Iberians and some Northern Italians. Southern France is not that mediterranean despite bordering the sea. In fact, together a few Yugoslavs from Croatia/Slovenia, they are the least Mediterranean people living on the Mediterranean shore and are pretty much core Europeans.

Catalonia, aragon , navarre and central-northern castille aren't mainly mediterranean . Go central catalonia and you'll see. Even the "house of barcelona" which was the ancient "pseudo kingdom" of catalonia was of germanic descent (i'm not saying catalans are germanic don't misunderstand me)

[ius semper]

I certainly agree and the Francophones in Louisiana are far more interested in preserving and promoting their French heritage than they are in cherrypicking between their Occitan, Norman, Breton, Arpitan, Picard or Lorrainais elements. I'm just saying that if the younger generation is interested ( which they probably won't be), there's no reason they couldn't have some sort of cultural revival. Right now, I think it's a step forward that they're interested in their French origins.. Anglo teachers have suppressed the use of the French language in southern Louisiana for generations in favor of Southern American English. The fact that some of the Cajuns and Creoles are interested in relearning and adopting their ancestral varieties of French is definitely a step in the right direction, in my opinion and I'm speaking as an Anglo myself : sometimes you'll hear a purely Pecot ( my great grandmother's family) " voice" in my posts, but this time I'm just typing as a person interested in all sorts of cultural preservation. If some Perrets, if some Bossiers, if some Armelins and others discover a curiosity about their heritage in certain regions of France, that might spread and people might become interested in relearning things. Maybe not in my lifetime, but maybe in the lifetime of my daughter's grandchildren.

That was pretty accurate, you definetly don't speek without thinking. Alle users in TA should do the same(i'm not excluding myself from them)

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

That was pretty accurate, you definetly don't speek without thinking. Alle users in TA should do the same(i'm not excluding myself from them)

Gooding is a very smart person.

[ius semper]

Gooding is a very smart person.

Yes he is. So you are american?

[Gaston]

Catalonia, aragon , navarre and central-northern castille aren't mainly mediterranean . Go central catalonia and you'll see. Even the "house of barcelona" which was the ancient "pseudo kingdom" of catalonia was of germanic descent (i'm not saying catalans are germanic don't misunderstand me)

All Iberians are clearly Mediterranean-shifted (whether Neolithic or North African) compared to the core of modern Europeans which is a stabilized mixture that dates back to as recent as the Bronze age. The southern French people I know are from the Southeast, so they might not be representative of all Southern France. Maybe Southwestern French from Montpellier to Toulouse are closer to some Iberians like Catalans.


I also forgot to add that some Southern French are actually Basque-shifted (less ANE but as much WHG as core Europeans)), and not Mediterranean-shifted.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Yes he is. So you are american?

Well yes and no I am not native to this land so I don't really consider myself American...

I am not going to live in this country much longer.

[ius semper]

All Iberians are clearly Mediterranean-shifted (whether Neolithic or North African) compared to the core of modern Europeans which is a stabilized mixture that dates back to as recent as the Bronze age. The southern French people I know are from the Southeast, so they might not be representative of all Southern France. Maybe Southwestern French from Montpellier to Toulouse are closer to some Iberians like Catalans.


I also forgot to add that some Southern French are actually Basque-shifted (less ANE but as much WHG as core Europeans)), and not Mediterranean-shifted.

Montpeiller is actually in southeastern france. Southwestern french look like other northern iberians and iberians are mainly meds yes but remember spain has also atlantic shore and distances between the country reach 1000km so... and north african admixture is residual in the far south

[Gooding]

Yes he is. So you are american?

Edit.

[Gooding]

Gooding is a very smart person.

Thank you and ius semper so much for your kind words! :yo: I have my moments, though, generally when I think I'm being funny.. ;)

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Montpeiller is actually in southeastern france. Southwestern french look like other northern iberians and iberians are mainly meds yes but remember spain has also atlantic shore and distances between the country reach 1000km so... and north african admixture is residual in the far south

By South East I think he means more South-East than Montpellier. Montpellier is like in the middle between South-West and South-East France.

[Gaston]

Montpeiller is actually in southeastern france. Southwestern french look like other northern iberians and iberians are mainly meds yes but remember spain has also atlantic shore and distances between the country reach 1000km so... and north african admixture is residual in the far south

I'm talking about genetics purely. The Atlantic shore of Iberia is ironically the most mediterranean genetically because of higher North African input (up to 10%, comparable to Sicily for instance), while Catalonia is one of the least North African-admixed and thus the least mediterranean-shifted of Iberia actually (except Basque, who aren't Iberian originally).

As for Montpellier, yes it is southeastern geographically, but it is culturally and historically considered to be Southwestern (historical Languedoc). The Southeast is the greater Provence region.

[ius semper]

By South East I think he means more South-East than Montpellier. Montpellier is like in the middle between South-West and South-East France.

Montpeiller is almost in mediterranean shore, which is far south eastern france.

[ius semper]

I'm talking about genetics purely. The Atlantic shore of Iberia is ironically the most mediterranean genetically because of higher North African input (up to 10%, comparable to Sicily for instance), while Catalonia is one of the least North African-admixed and thus less mediterranean-shifted of Iberia actually (except Basque, who aren't Iberian originally).

As for Montpellier, yes it is southeastern geographically, but it is culturally and historically considered to be Southwestern (historical Languedoc). The Southeast is the greater Provence region.

Wait wait, the north african admixture reaches its highest numbers in andalucia obviously, the atlantic shore isnt that mediterranean at all... and 10%?! Im not an expert in genetics but thats quite a lot

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Montpeiller is almost in mediterranean shore, which is far south eastern france.

By South-East he means Provence...but I know what you mean yeah.

I wonder if Occitans from there are closer to the North-West Italians or to the Catalans...I think the Catalans are our closest brothers, whether we be in the South-East or the South-West...but North-West Italians are also very close.

[ius semper]

By South-East he means Provence...but I know what you mean yeah.

I wonder if Occitans from there are closer to the North-West Italians or to the Catalans...I think the Catalans are our closest brothers, whether we be in the South-East or the South-West...but North-West Italians are also very close.

The language shows the cultutal and human connections my friend, occitan language was of the same family as catalan: occitano-romance

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

The language shows the cultutal and human connections my friend, occitan language was of the same family as catalan: occitano-romance

Also you even said Montpellier was Catalan once didn't you?

[ius semper]

Also you even said Montpellier was Catalan once didn't you?

Yes. Well, of the aragonese crown to be fair, but yes catalan. We lost it in the pact of the pyrinnees ( we almost ended belonging to the french in that war...)

[Gooding]

True.. hey, maybe when I'm lauding the accomplishments of Imperial Spain, I'm echoing sentiments held by forgotten ancestors from way back in my own genome.. I doubt it, but maybe so.

[ius semper]

True.. hey, maybe when I'm lauding the accomplishments of Imperial Spain, I'm echoing sentiments held by forgotten ancestors from way back in my own genome.. I doubt it, but maybe so.

I didnt understand at all what you were trying to say

[Gooding]

I didnt understand at all what you were trying to say

Okay, that would be me trying to make a connection between my own ancestry and Spain. I also have Occitan roots, many of them in the Pyrenean region, one in Provence. When I saw the bit about Montpellier being taken from the Crown of Aragon, I very quickly " connected the dots" and said " hey, maybe when some of my forebears left the French Midi for Spanish Louisiana, it's possible that they were simply returning to a government they once payed taxes to centuries ago." I was being very serious, ius semper. When I said I doubted it, I was simply disparaging my own inability to make accurate theories that I can't back up. The history of Southern France is a fascinating and still largely unknown one to me. If Southern France and Spain share some history, I'd be very interested to know more about it. France didn't simply spring forward full- cloth into the " Hexagone," and I was just postulating that parts of Spain and parts of France once shared an intimate connection.

[Damião de Góis]

I'm talking about genetics purely. The Atlantic shore of Iberia is ironically the most mediterranean genetically because of higher North African input (up to 10%, comparable to Sicily for instance), while Catalonia is one of the least North African-admixed and thus the least mediterranean-shifted of Iberia actually (except Basque, who aren't Iberian originally).

As for Montpellier, yes it is southeastern geographically, but it is culturally and historically considered to be Southwestern (historical Languedoc). The Southeast is the greater Provence region.

Up to 10%? On which run? As for measuring mediterranean, you can sum West Med and East Med on K15 for example but i don't take any easy conclusion.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177

[ius semper]

Okay, that would be me trying to make a connection between my own ancestry and Spain. I also have Occitan roots, many of them in the Pyrenean region, one in Provence. When I saw the bit about Montpellier being taken from the Crown of Aragon, I very quickly " connected the dots" and said " hey, maybe when some of my forebears left the French Midi for Spanish Louisiana, it's possible that they were simply returning to a government they once payed taxes to centuries ago." I was being very serious, ius semper. When I said I doubted it, I was simply disparaging my own inability to make accurate theories that I can't back up. The history of Southern France is a fascinating and still largely unknown one to me. If Southern France and Spain share some history, I'd be very interested to know more about it. France didn't simply spring forward full- cloth into the " Hexagone," and I was just postulating that parts of Spain and parts of France once shared an intimate connection.

You talk about spain as it was a block, and it provably has more cultures inside itself that france or italy. About your spanish ancestry, well, half of the states were discovered by the spanish and racism there started with them. Southern france is great but catalonia is even better, its unique.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Up to 10%? On which run? As for measuring mediterranean, you can sum West Med and East Med on K15 for example but i don't take any easy conclusion.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177

Italic rats claim Basques and Catalans aren't Iberian originally.

[ius semper]

Italic rats claim Basques and Catalans aren't Iberian originally.

Come on come on there's no need for hate. Obviously 10% of north african admixture in spain is impossible but no needs for insulting

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Come on come on there's no need for hate. Obviously 10% of north african admixture in spain is impossible but no needs for insulting

What? I'm not insulting nobody. I'm just mention a certain group by their name.

[Gooding]

You talk about spain as it was a block, and it provably has more cultures inside itself that france or italy. About your spanish ancestry, well, half of the states were discovered by the spanish and racism there started with them. Southern france is great but catalonia is even better, its unique.
No argument there and I'm well aware of the cultural distinctions of Spain's autonomous regions. It was not my intention to speak of Spain as a monolith. It is good that you cherish your homeland. I, too, have a love for my roots. Yes, one of my French ancestors, Laurent Pierre Sigur, fought in Louisiana with a militia under the name Lorenzo Pedro Sigur:
Laurent Sigur
b.1742? Metz, Moselle, Lorraine, France

d.17 Nov 1816 New Orleans, Louisiana
.
Family tree▼
Add Parents and Siblings
Spouse and Children(edit)
H. Laurent Sigur
1742 - 1816

W. Anne Roche

m. bef 1762
1.Pierre-Francois Sigur
1762 -


Add another spouse & children

▼Facts and Events

Name Laurent Sigur
Gender Male
Birth[1] 1742? Metz, Moselle, Lorraine, France

Marriage bef 1762 Metz, Moselle, France
to Anne Roche

Death[2] 17 Nov 1816 New Orleans, Louisiana

Burial[2] 18 Nov 1816 New Orleans, Louisiana
First Families of Louisiana


This individual is part of the lineage of a certified
Colonial Louisiana Ancestor
by the
Louisiana Genealogical & Historical Society

(Click "First Families of Louisiana" for details)


▼References
1.↑ Holmes, Jack D. L. Honor and Fidelity: The Louisiana Infantry Regiment and the Louisiana Militia Companies, 1766-1812. (Birmingham, Alabama: The Author, 1965), pp. 221-22 (citing AGI, PC, legajo 162-a).

He was a lieutenant in the Iberville militia under the name Lorenzo Sigur. On the roll of 12 Feb 1792, he was listed as a captain. He served nearly 14 years in the militia, as well as nearly 9 years in the German Coast Disciplined Provincial Militia. On the roll for 1800, his age is given as 58 years. On several of the rolls, his birthplace is given as Metz. 2.↑ 2.0 2.1 Sacramental Records of the Roman Catholic Church of the Archdiocese of New Orleans. (New Orleans, Louisiana: Archdiocese of New Orleans, 1987-), Vol. 12 (1816-1817), p. 358 (citing SLC, F11, 41).

This record also records his age as about 82 years (giving a birth year of 1732) and his birth place as Metz.
Category: First Families of Louisiana

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

So it looks like Occitans are closest to Catalans, Aragonese and North Italians genetically. I am still confused about how close they are to Andalusians and Portuguese people. On one hand we have the people that say Andalusians and Portuguese are distant from Catalans and Occitans and on the other hand we have the people that say Iberians are all pretty much the same. Which is it?

If Iberians are pretty much all the same genetically then the Occitans shouldn't be too distant from any of them, including Andalusians and Portuguese people.

I also have acknowledged that Castilians and Occitans are pretty close, closer than Occitans are to South Germans anyway, but closer to South Germans than Andalusians...or is that not true, considering all Iberians are pretty much the same? This logic would mean that Occitans are closer to Portuguese and Andalusians than southern Germans, which I am skeptical of. Anyways, North Italians also share ancestry with southern Germans, from the Celts who lived in central Europe and northern Italy. This is how the Occitans are related to them, too.

[Gooding]

Anyway, here's a pic and quick bio of my great- grandmother: http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Marie_Elodie_Pecot_%281887-1967%29

[Gooding]

Bump.. I feel like a fucking fool.. See all these nationalities? How much is an eighth, anyway?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Bump.. I feel like a fucking fool.. See all these nationalities? How much is an eighth, anyway?

1/8 = 12.5 percent

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Bump.. I feel like a fucking fool.. See all these nationalities? How much is an eighth, anyway?

mate you need to embrace all of your ancestors...it's what I do....you definitely have south French/Mediterranean roots so why not embrace it like me?

[Gooding]

1/8 = 12.5 percent

Yup. Not a lot.

[Gooding]

mate you need to embrace all of your ancestors...it's what I do....you definitely have south French/Mediterranean roots so why not embrace it like me?

I think I will. :) I'm certainly not too old to learn.:high5

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I think I will. :)

I try to embrace all my ancestors because even if one ancestor very far back did not do something specific I would not be here today...

[Gaston]

Italic rats claim Basques and Catalans aren't Iberian originally.

I am not Italian at all baby boy.

I've never said Catalans were not Iberian. As for Basques, they are originally not Iberian but from what is now Southwestern France (Aquitania). There is good evidence based on linguistic and roman texts that proto-basque originated in Southwestern France.


Up to 10%? On which run? As for measuring mediterranean, you can sum West Med and East Med on K15 for example but i don't take any easy conclusion.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177

Based on the few obsolete runs with a Mozabite-centered component, some Western Iberians (particularly Galicians and some Portuguese) come out as 7-9% "Northwest African", and this knowing the average North African has nowhere near 50% of the "Northwest African" component. The other way is to mutiple the African (non-Eurasian) scores by 5 because North Africans are on average 1/5 African.


EDIT: also, people should stop talking about "Occitans" as a monolithic group. Provence people and Gascons usually don't like being called "Occitan". And this also very likely apply to genetics, there is probably some diversity, which I already mentioned.

[Damião de Góis]

So it looks like Occitans are closest to Catalans, Aragonese and North Italians genetically. I am still confused about how close they are to Andalusians and Portuguese people. On one hand we have the people that say Andalusians and Portuguese are distant from Catalans and Occitans and on the other hand we have the people that say Iberians are all pretty much the same. Which is it?

If Iberians are pretty much all the same genetically then the Occitans shouldn't be too distant from any of them, including Andalusians and Portuguese people.

I also have acknowledged that Castilians and Occitans are pretty close, closer than Occitans are to South Germans anyway, but closer to South Germans than Andalusians...or is that not true, considering all Iberians are pretty much the same? This logic would mean that Occitans are closer to Portuguese and Andalusians than southern Germans, which I am skeptical of. Anyways, North Italians also share ancestry with southern Germans, from the Celts who lived in central Europe and northern Italy. This is how the Occitans are related to them, too.

With the amount of genetic plots i've showed you by now, my conclusion is that you are just one annoying troll.



Based on the few obsolete runs with a Mozabite-centered component, some Western Iberians (particularly Galicians and some Portuguese) come out as 7-9% "Northwest African", and this knowing the average North African has nowhere near 50% of the "Northwest African" component. The other way is to mutiple the African (non-Eurasian) scores by 5 because North Africans are on average 1/5 African.


I'm not sure how you are calculating North African "up to 10%". Do you have any direct link of any particular run to show me?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

With the amount of genetic plots i've showed you by now, my conclusion is that you are just one annoying troll.

No, I am not a troll, annoying maybe, to you people who find me annoying.

I will be here to stay sorry.

If the Occitans peoples are closest to the Catalans, which is what seems to be the idea, and all Iberians, this includes Catalans, are the same, then that means they are just as close to Andalusians, and Portuguese people, doesn't it? I am just a little skeptical of that is all. Of course, as you know, I am not a genetics expert so I don't know.

[Damião de Góis]

No, I am not a troll, annoying maybe, to you people who find me annoying.

I will be here to stay sorry.

If the Occitans peoples are closest to the Catalans, which is what seems to be the idea, and all Iberians, this includes Catalans, are the same, then that means they are just as close to Andalusians, and Portuguese people, doesn't it? I am just a little skeptical of that is all. Of course, as you know, I am not a genetics expert so I don't know.

First of all, i don't know who or what Occitans are. If they are southern French, then there is a Southwest French sample and they are closer to ANY iberians than to ANY germans genetically.

http://abload.de/img/mds_mfa_eutest0gzcn.png

This has to be the 50th genetic plot i show you, and it will be the last.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

First of all, i don't know who or what Occitans are. If they are southern French, then there is a Southwest French sample and they are closer to ANY iberians than to ANY germans genetically.

http://abload.de/img/mds_mfa_eutest0gzcn.png

This has to be the 50th genetic plot i show you, and it will be the last.

Alright, that's fair. I get the point now...you need to do some researching on the Occitan people :D they are very cool and my mother is part Occitan. Occitan language is closest to Catalan.

Look, I can see why you think I am a troll, it was just hard for me to accept that south French could be closer to Portuguese people, or Andalusians, than Germanic people but I accept it now, I won't ask you again, if I do then you can call me a troll. I am an honest person, and I try to be polite. I don't have to be polite you know. I thank you for helping me, and I wish we could be friends.

[Gaston]

With the amount of genetic plots i've showed you by now, my conclusion is that you are just one annoying troll.




I'm not sure how you are calculating North African "up to 10%". Do you have any direct link of any particular run to show me?

Any run, check DOD392 and DOD614 who are Galicians. An easier way is just to multiply the African score on in lower Ks by 5. :thumbs up

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

With the amount of genetic plots i've showed you by now, my conclusion is that you are just one annoying troll.




I'm not sure how you are calculating North African "up to 10%". Do you have any direct link of any particular run to show me?

BTW this will not be the last of my "annoying" questions, if they annoy you I am sorry. This is, however the last time I will ask you about south French/Occitans being closer to Portuguese/Andalusians than Germans, because I have my answer now.

[Damião de Góis]

Any run, check DOD392 and DOD614 who are Galicians. An easier way is just to multiply the African score on in lower Ks by 5. :thumbs up

They score 7% and 6.5% on K12b. Was 10% a rounded up estimation? I thought it was a real score.

[Gaston]

They score 7% and 6.5% on K12b. Was 10% a rounded up estimation? I thought it was a real score.

It's an estimation, based on the fact North Africans are on average 35%-40% "Northwest African" and not 100% This estimation is supported by the raw African scores of some Iberians (up to 2%+) and the position in West Eurasian PCA plots.

And also IBD sharing with Northwest Africans:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQUnJrQUhQM1N6X1k/edit
(zoom)

Notice how Portugal and Galicia deviate more towards Northwest Africa than the rest of the Iberian sample ("Spain" and Andalusians). But notice also traces of North African IBD in the French and Hungarian sample, meaning there is probably minor North African admixture even further inside Europe although much less than some parts of Iberia and Sicily/Malta and some Southernmost Italian places.

[Damião de Góis]

It's an estimation, based on the fact North Africans are on average 35%-40% "Northwest African" and not 100% This estimation is supported by the raw African scores of some Iberians (up to 2%+) and the position in West Eurasian PCA plots.

And also IBD sharing with Northwest Africans:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQUnJrQUhQM1N6X1k/edit
(zoom)

Notice how Portugal and Galicia deviate more towards Northwest Africa than the rest of the Iberian sample ("Spain" and Andalusians). But notice also traces of North African IBD in the French and Hungarian sample, meaning there is probably minor North African admixture even further inside Europe although much less than some parts of Iberia and Sicily/Malta and some Southernmost Italian places.

That is not autosomal scores since Portugal and Galicia don't deviate from the rest of iberians autosomally. I also don't see how their position on West Eurasian PCA plots supports anything related to north africans. I posted one above. What are you seeing there? Portuguese and Galicians shifted towards Mozabites and Moroccans? No, i don't think so.

[Gaston]

That is not autosomal scores since Portugal and Galicia don't deviate from the rest of iberians autosomally. I also don't see how their position on West Eurasian PCA plots supports anything related to north africans. I posted one above. What are you seeing there? Portuguese and Galicians shifted towards Mozabites and Moroccans? No, i don't think so.

Well, check again. While Iberians form indeed a pretty homogenous blob in West Eurasian PCAs (unlike Italians who form a long continuum between West-Central Europe and the the MENA region), you can see that Catalans for instance are slighly closer to French than the average of Iberia is and that some Iberians deviate slightly more towards Sardinia/Northwest Africa than what Iberia is already doing.


The PCA you posted is based on results of an ADMIXTURE run, so not reliable because Galicians for instance seem to have a more northern affinity (high Northern European/ steppes ancestry) when excluding North African influence than the average of Iberia (maybe Celtic influence? or a Germanic one?). You need a PCA based on raw SNPs, not component to see that, like here:

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/03/31/Eurasia%20PCA.png

Interestingly, Galicians here are more eastern too (ANE-admixed), almost as if their non-North African ancestry was French-like. Maybe we're seeing here celtic or germanic influence in Northwestern Iberia (in line with high R1a and E-M81 y-dna in Cantabrians for instance).

So there is a bit of variation in Iberia, not surprising since it's quite a huge landmass (it would be bigger than France if Portugal and Spain were united).

[Damião de Góis]

Well, check again. While Iberians form indeed a pretty homogenous blob in West Eurasian PCAs (unlike Italians who form a long continuum between West-Central Europe and the the MENA region), you can see that Catalans for instance are slighly closer to French than the average of Iberia is and that some Iberians deviate slightly more towards Sardinia/Northwest Africa than what Iberia is already doing.


The PCA you posted is based on results of an ADMIXTURE run, so not reliable because Galicians for instance seem to have a more northern affinity (high Northern European/ steppes ancestry) when excluding North African influence than the average of Iberia (maybe Celtic influence? or a Germanic one?). You need a PCA based on raw SNPs, not component to see that, like here:

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/03/31/Eurasia%20PCA.png

Interestingly, Galicians here are more eastern too (ANE-admixed), almost as if their non-North African ancestry was French-like. Maybe we're seeing here celtic or germanic influence in Northwestern Iberia (in line with high R1a and E-M81 y-dna in Cantabrians for instance).

So there is a bit of variation in Iberia, not surprising since it's quite a huge landmass (it would be bigger than France if Portugal and Spain were united).

I'm seeing the shift you mention on two Murcians, not Galicians or Portuguese.

[Cristiano viejo]

I hate Franco! :shakefist

Anyways if Occitans die then we still live on in spirit with the Catalans...who are our closest brothers...
Why do you hate Franco? ah yes, you are a lefty...


Atlantomed is a very castillian thing. Catalans and occitans are also atlantomed but you can distinguish them from castillians.
Nice joke.


http://teleprograma.fotogramas.es/var/plan_site/storage/images/series_tv/2012/octubre/todos_los_hombres_de_isabel/millan_001/5731159-1-esl-ES/millan_001_principalGaleriaRetrato.jpg this is what an old school castillian looks like.
Notable Baskid component, not textbook Atlanto-Med at all.


Something france has done properly is stablish their pride among their colonies, look at québec, they fu**ing love france. Spain (castille to be fair) on the other hand... All the ex colonies hate them
Naive comparison, Quebecois or Cajuns are still French, they were abused in Canada by the British and they never independized directly from the metropoli, because they had not a reason for. They were vast majority in Quebec or Lousiana, unlike Spaniards in their colonies, where were just a minority, the elite. That is why now "ex-colonies hate Spain".
Also I would wish to add that precisely Cajuns of Lousiana (who casually arrived to Lousiana thanks to Spain and as such they were part of our colonies) hate so much to Spain that they decided to add the golden castle of Castile in their flag :rolleyes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Cajun_flag_Drapeau_cadjen.png


Yes. Well, of the aragonese crown to be fair, but yes catalan. We lost it in the pact of the pyrinnees ( we almost ended belonging to the french in that war...)
By retards.


I am not Italian at all baby boy.
Gaston is Gabacho. But I have always thought that he is of North African origin :whistle:


I've never said Catalans were not Iberian. As for Basques, they are originally not Iberian but from what is now Southwestern France (Aquitania). There is good evidence based on linguistic and roman texts that proto-basque originated in Southwestern France.

The original homeland of Basques is current Aragón.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Why do you hate Franco? ah yes, you are a lefty...

And because Franco was a dick.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Why do you hate Franco? ah yes, you are a lefty...

Franco didn't like Catalans did he? No he didn't. He was supremacist. Why do you think Catalans should be part of Spain anyway?

[Alessio]

I'd be interested in seeing results from people who're from places near the border of Valle d'Aosta, Liguria and South Tyrol, like Courmayeur, Fanghetto and Bolzano.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I'd be interested in seeing results from people who're from places near the border of Valle d'Aosta, Liguria and South Tyrol, like Courmayeur, Fanghetto and Bolzano.

Me too...

[Alessio]

Me too...

I've collected some kitnumbers of north Italians but none have ''French'' as a top population; I also haven't seen any south French score much Italian too except if they had Italian ancestry.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I've collected some kitnumbers of north Italians but none have ''French'' as a top population; I also haven't seen any south French score much Italian too except if they had Italian ancestry.

They really need to test Occitans, with pure Occitan ancestry, to see who these people related to the most...I think they are closest to Catalans. I am not entirely sure how close they are to North-Italians, but Southwest_French plot closest to Catalans and they are closer to Andalusians and Portuguese than to Germans...

[Alessio]

They really need to test Occitans, with pure Occitan ancestry, to see who these people related to the most...I think they are closest to Catalans. I am not entirely sure how close they are to North-Italians, but Southwest_French plot closest to Catalans and they are closer to Andalusians and Portuguese than to Germans...

If you're a member at 23andme, you can search for people from places you like to share with. This is how I do it and then I ask if they've uploaded their rawdata to Gedmatch :)

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

If you're a member at 23andme, you can search for people from places you like to share with. This is how I do it and then I ask if they've uploaded their rawdata to Gedmatch :)

That's very smart :) thank you...

[Journeyman26]

I've collected some kitnumbers of north Italians but none have ''French'' as a top population; I also haven't seen any south French score much Italian too except if they had Italian ancestry.

Agreed.. usually N. Italians have "broadly northern european" and french/german but only in relatively low amounts, usually pretty predominantly Italian. I think they are fairly distinct. But maybe when more and more people from different parts of France and Switzerland, as well as all over Italy get tested there will be better resolution. Usually the "north Italian" markers are South Tyrolean, and the Italian ones are Tuscan.

[Cristiano viejo]

And because Franco was a dick.
Even although Franco would have been that, a lefty should not hate anyone for that reason :thumb001:


Franco didn't like Catalans did he? No he didn't.
False. In fact Franco worried to industrialize Catalonia and Basque Country at the expense of the rest of Spain.


He was supremacist.
And what exactly did he claim? :picard1:


Why do you think Catalans should be part of Spain anyway?
This question is quite stupid.

[Bagot]

Usually the "north Italian" markers are South Tyrolean, and the Italian ones are Tuscan.

Have you any source about it? It sounds very strange to me.


They really need to test Occitans, with pure Occitan ancestry, to see who these people related to the most....

I doubt that Occitans with pure Occitan ancestry exist. Occitans are nothing but southern French.

[Gaston]

The original homeland of Basques is current Aragón.

But the original homeland of Aquitanians (of which Basques are descended from) is Aquitania.

The Basques samples available in the literature are showing that French Basques are more distinct while Spanish Basques are slightly mixed with Iberians.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQb2I1X2t0TDZtMXM/edit

Notice how French people are all over the place. Some of them are intermediate between the French samples and the Basques, and this is where I expect a great deal of Southern French (as North as the Oc-Oil divide) to fall.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Have you any source about it? It sounds very strange to me.



I doubt that Occitans with pure Occitan ancestry exist. Occitans are nothing but southern French.

Basically, they need to test someone who has pure southern French ancestry...there probably are very few out there.

[Cristiano viejo]

But the original homeland of Aquitanians (of which Basques are descended from) is Aquitania.
Conjectures.

[Gaston]

Conjectures.

Good ones.

If Basques are originally Iberian, you understand that it automatically means Iberians are heterogenous?

[Cristiano viejo]

Good ones.

If Basques are originally Iberian, you understand that it automatically means Iberians are heterogenous?

We are.
Even Basque language is related to Iberian one.

[ius semper]

Good ones.

If Basques are originally Iberian, you understand that it automatically means Iberians are heterogenous?

There's not an iberian official phenotype. Basques are iberian because they live in the peninula and their home (euskal herria) is in a 80% of its territory, in the peninsula.
And anyway, the migrations through the country make almost impossible to stablish a "most common" phenotype in any region. Guess its the same in France.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

bump

what are the genetics of Provence Occitans (Provencal people)?

[Rugevit]

bump

what are the genetics of Provence Occitans (Provencal people)?

Calculator output from MDLP 22


> MOracle("Provancal", k=40)

[1,] "Provancal" "0"
[2,] "Italian_North" "2.9866"
[3,] "Swiss" "3.662"
[4,] "French" "6.7357"
[5,] "Portugese" "8.9722"
[6,] "Spaniard" "9.0333"
[7,] "Iberian" "9.5084"
[8,] "Italian-North" "9.901"
[9,] "German-South" "10.3885"
[10,] "Kosovar" "11.463"
[11,] "Corsican" "11.4948"
[12,] "Montenegrin" "11.7712"
[13,] "Romania" "12.2499"
[14,] "Bulgarian" "13.1267"
[15,] "Macedonian" "13.3802"
[16,] "Serbian" "14.9526"
[17,] "Gagauz" "15.1977"
[18,] "British" "15.8345"
[19,] "CEU" "16.3395"
[20,] "Orcadian" "17.1706"

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Calculator output from MDLP 22


> MOracle("Provancal", k=40)

[1,] "Provancal" "0"
[2,] "Italian_North" "2.9866"
[3,] "Swiss" "3.662"
[4,] "French" "6.7357"
[5,] "Portugese" "8.9722"
[6,] "Spaniard" "9.0333"
[7,] "Iberian" "9.5084"
[8,] "Italian-North" "9.901"
[9,] "German-South" "10.3885"
[10,] "Kosovar" "11.463"
[11,] "Corsican" "11.4948"
[12,] "Montenegrin" "11.7712"
[13,] "Romania" "12.2499"
[14,] "Bulgarian" "13.1267"
[15,] "Macedonian" "13.3802"
[16,] "Serbian" "14.9526"
[17,] "Gagauz" "15.1977"
[18,] "British" "15.8345"
[19,] "CEU" "16.3395"
[20,] "Orcadian" "17.1706"

What exactly does it mean?

Perhaps it is showing distance of Provancal to different populations, then why is North Italian mentioned twice and Iberian if Portuguese and Spaniard are already mentioned? Anyways very interesting, thank you...

[Rugevit]

What exactly does it mean?

Perhaps it is showing distance of Provancal to different populations, then why is North Italian mentioned twice and Iberian if Portuguese and Spaniard are already mentioned? Anyways very interesting, thank you...


Genetic distances between Provancal and other populations. There are two different north Italian samples. The one which is further away is probably from Tuscany. Here's PCA plot on selected populations. : http://postimg.org/image/6fvl04r3t/full/

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Calculator output from MDLP 22


> MOracle("Provancal", k=40)

[1,] "Provancal" "0"
[2,] "Italian_North" "2.9866"
[3,] "Swiss" "3.662"
[4,] "French" "6.7357"
[5,] "Portugese" "8.9722"
[6,] "Spaniard" "9.0333"
[7,] "Iberian" "9.5084"
[8,] "Italian-North" "9.901"
[9,] "German-South" "10.3885"
[10,] "Kosovar" "11.463"
[11,] "Corsican" "11.4948"
[12,] "Montenegrin" "11.7712"
[13,] "Romania" "12.2499"
[14,] "Bulgarian" "13.1267"
[15,] "Macedonian" "13.3802"
[16,] "Serbian" "14.9526"
[17,] "Gagauz" "15.1977"
[18,] "British" "15.8345"
[19,] "CEU" "16.3395"
[20,] "Orcadian" "17.1706"

Interesting. So they are closest to North Italians, then to Swiss, then to French, then to Portuguese. Then Spaniard, Iberian, and then another North Italian which is probably Tuscan, maybe, and then comes South Germans. It's weird I thought they would be closer to South Germans. Anyways another thing that is interesting is how they are closer to Portuguese than Spaniards.

Also how they are closer to the Gagauz people than the British!

[ius semper]

Its obvious that they're closer to northern italians and swiss than to catalans as they share limit with those regions. Look at this map: http://ccs.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?ld=20150602&app=1&c=globososohosted2&s=globososohosted2&rc=globososohosted2&dc=&euip=80.58.250.88&pvaid=027ed1c189b6437981ce08678295fb77&dt=Desktop&fct.uid=globososo_1432921435_316383%253B%252&en=%2b4VCRfsaYrl9kB2kqguA%2flwEL2FOL%2bxa0PE2Dzkn3 zXJVe6sx%2bpqLtUV%2fxvYtZ9LCu%2fi47lWMzE%3d&du=http%3a%2f%2fwww.beyond.fr%2fpicsmaps%2ffranceo ccitan.gif&ru=http%3a%2f%2fwww.beyond.fr%2fpicsmaps%2ffranceo ccitan.gif&ap=1&coi=772&cop=main-title&npp=1&p=0&pp=0&ep=1&mid=9&hash=8060F7AB0762E72B307837C71B1F6E2C

What I don't understand is why they're closer to portuguese than to catalans.

[ius semper]

Its obvious that they're closer to northern italians and swiss than to catalans as they share limit with those regions. Look at this map: http://ccs.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?ld=20150602&app=1&c=globososohosted2&s=globososohosted2&rc=globososohosted2&dc=&euip=80.58.250.88&pvaid=027ed1c189b6437981ce08678295fb77&dt=Desktop&fct.uid=globososo_1432921435_316383%253B%252&en=%2b4VCRfsaYrl9kB2kqguA%2flwEL2FOL%2bxa0PE2Dzkn3 zXJVe6sx%2bpqLtUV%2fxvYtZ9LCu%2fi47lWMzE%3d&du=http%3a%2f%2fwww.beyond.fr%2fpicsmaps%2ffranceo ccitan.gif&ru=http%3a%2f%2fwww.beyond.fr%2fpicsmaps%2ffranceo ccitan.gif&ap=1&coi=772&cop=main-title&npp=1&p=0&pp=0&ep=1&mid=9&hash=8060F7AB0762E72B307837C71B1F6E2C

What I don't understand is why they're closer to portuguese than to catalans.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Its obvious that they're closer to northern italians and swiss than to catalans as they share limit with those regions. Look at this map: http://ccs.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?ld=20150602&app=1&c=globososohosted2&s=globososohosted2&rc=globososohosted2&dc=&euip=80.58.250.88&pvaid=027ed1c189b6437981ce08678295fb77&dt=Desktop&fct.uid=globososo_1432921435_316383%253B%252&en=%2b4VCRfsaYrl9kB2kqguA%2flwEL2FOL%2bxa0PE2Dzkn3 zXJVe6sx%2bpqLtUV%2fxvYtZ9LCu%2fi47lWMzE%3d&du=http%3a%2f%2fwww.beyond.fr%2fpicsmaps%2ffranceo ccitan.gif&ru=http%3a%2f%2fwww.beyond.fr%2fpicsmaps%2ffranceo ccitan.gif&ap=1&coi=772&cop=main-title&npp=1&p=0&pp=0&ep=1&mid=9&hash=8060F7AB0762E72B307837C71B1F6E2C

What I don't understand is why they're closer to portuguese than to catalans.

Yes I don't understand that either.

Also my Occitan ancestors came from Lasalle, Gard department, Languedoc-Roussillon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasalle,_Gard

My ancestors surname is Occitan, not French. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loubatières this is the surname.

There are a few notable people with the surname, one from Montpellier, another from Agde, both in Hérault department, so the name is common in Gard and Hérault departments. I wonder if my ancestors were closer to Catalans or to North Italians.

http://www.map-france.com/map/departement/carte-departement-Herault.jpg

[ius semper]

Yes I don't understand that either.

Also my Occitan ancestors came from Lasalle, Gard department, Languedoc-Roussillon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasalle,_Gard

My ancestors surname is Occitan, not French. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loubatières this is the surname.

There are a few notable people with the surname, one from Montpellier, another from Agde, both in Hérault department, so the name is common in Gard and Hérault departments. I wonder if my ancestors were closer to Catalans or to North Italians.

http://www.map-france.com/map/departement/carte-departement-Herault.jpg

Lots of "studies" are crap. I'm not saying that the guy who posted those studies was lying but I think its pretty obvious that they resemble more catalans and specially aragonese in the west than portuguese, who are down west the peninsula.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Lots of "studies" are crap. I'm not saying that the guy who posted those studies was lying but I think its pretty obvious that they resemble more catalans and specially aragonese in the west than portuguese, who are down west the peninsula.

Well we know South-West French are for sure. My people are kinda in the middle, from the Herault/Gard departments. It's between South-West France and South-East France. I wonder who those people are closer to. I know that the Catalan language is the closest to Occitan.

[Damião de Góis]

What I don't understand is why they're closer to portuguese than to catalans.

Because MDLP is not accurate. It guesses me as swiss.

[Lawalye]

So you are norwegian and you consider yourself "pure", do you know that you are more mixed than an average west european ?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

So you are norwegian and you consider yourself "pure", do you know that you are more mixed than an average west european ?

So I have some distant south French, so what. Still purer than the average west european.

[ius semper]

So I have some distant south French, so what. Still purer than the average west european.

why purer?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

why purer?

Believe me most west europeans are mixed. With Slavs, Jews, whatever.

[ius semper]

Believe me most west europeans are mixed. With Slavs, Jews, whatever.

I'm west european and I bet my ass I'm "purer" than you

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I'm west european and I bet my ass I'm "purer" than you

Define pure.

I just mean I am a pure Celto-Germanic is all.

I am talking more NW Europeans btw. Iberians are good at keeping pure. I don't mean them.

[Lawalye]

So I have some distant south French, so what. Still purer than the average west european.

I posted on the wrong thread, whatever, still average norwegians are of course more mixed with slavs than west europeans, except the german due to history with the deportation of the german of east Europe.

Other fact, norwegians don't have celtic admixture or at least very few, the scandinavians have also mongoloid admixture and for the base they are a mix of germanic and pre-germanic population.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I posted on the wrong thread, whatever, still average norwegians are of course more mixed with slavs than west europeans, except the german due to history with the deportation of the german of east Europe.

Other fact, norwegians don't have celtic admixture or at least very few, the scandinavians have also mongoloid admixture and for the base they are a mix of germanic and pre-germanic population.

I don't claim to be a pure Norwegian but a pure Celto-Germanic.

Why do you think Norwegians have Mongoloid admix? And what was the pre-Germanics like?

[Valmont]

Define pure.

I just mean I am a pure Celto-Germanic is all.

I am talking more NW Europeans btw. Iberians are good at keeping pure. I don't mean them.

What exactly do you call "Celto-Germanic"? Because to me it sounds like the generic names of the old tribes of Europe and Occitans belong to the "Celtic" categories (so do Iberians).

Unless you refer to "modern Celts": Irish, Scots, Cornish and Breton people. I.e modern Celtic languages speakers who belong to the 6 Celtic nations

https://www.libraries.psu.edu/content/psul/greaterallegheny/teaching_international/ti1213/celtic/_jcr_content/openpar/textimage_psul_3/image.img.png/1344436076985.png

http://www.flyingcolours.org/uploads/2011_uploads/celtic_nations.jpg

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

What exactly do you call "Celto-Germanic"? Because to me it sounds like the generic names of the old tribes of Europe and Occitans belong to the "Celtic" categories (so do Iberians).

Unless you refer to "modern Celts": Irish, Scots, Cornish and Breton people. I.e modern Celtic languages speakers who belong to the 6 Celtic nations

https://www.libraries.psu.edu/content/psul/greaterallegheny/teaching_international/ti1213/celtic/_jcr_content/openpar/textimage_psul_3/image.img.png/1344436076985.png

http://www.flyingcolours.org/uploads/2011_uploads/celtic_nations.jpg

I mean all Celts. Irish, Scots, French and Iberians too

except I don't think Iberians are that Celtic. They have Iberic influence too which is different.

[Lawalye]

I don't claim to be a pure Norwegian but a pure Celto-Germanic.

Why do you think Norwegians have Mongoloid admix? And what was the pre-Germanics like?

Pre-germanic = germanized cro-magnon.

I posted on the wrong thread, I wanted to post on your thread "I'm superior to most of people on the forum"

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Pre-germanic = germanized cro-magnon.

I posted on the wrong thread, I wanted to post on your thread "I'm superior to most of people on the forum"

I see.

[ius semper]

Define pure.

I just mean I am a pure Celto-Germanic is all.

I am talking more NW Europeans btw. Iberians are good at keeping pure. I don't mean them.

I mean pure european of course. Pure iberian is impossible, romans celts and iberians compose the 90% of us. Then there's a 10% more or less of mediterranized moors down there

[Lawalye]

Iberian are mostly from celtic origin.

Here, there's the "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage" : http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml and 69% of spanish have an R1B haplogroup wich is celto-germanic (mostly celtic in this case).

[ius semper]

Iberian are mostly from celtic origin.

Here, there's the "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage" : http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml and 69% of spanish have an R1B haplogroup wich is celto-germanic (mostly celtic in this case).

hmm maybe, although I wouldn't say I'm predominantly celtic : http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?176678-CLASSIFY-ME-BEST-FIT

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Iberian are mostly from celtic origin.

Here, there's the "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage" : http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml and 69% of spanish have an R1B haplogroup wich is celto-germanic (mostly celtic in this case).

Maybe but aren't the branches of R1b common in Iberia different than those common in other countries?

[Valmont]

I mean all Celts. Irish, Scots, French and Iberians too

except I don't think Iberians are that Celtic. They have Iberic influence too which is different.

I agree. :) Hence the historical name of Celtiberians. The "Celtic" part of Iberian is imo limited to the very north of the country (and the north-west with the Galicians)

[Lawalye]

hmm maybe, although I wouldn't say I'm predominantly celtic : http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?176678-CLASSIFY-ME-BEST-FIT

R haplogroup is exclusively indo-european, the original celts were indo-european who settled in west european and mixed with locals, they imposed their culture.

Curiously, the basque is one of the people in Europe who have the most celtic admixture but do not speak an indo-european language, for this it would need to focus on the mtdna. Their ancestors may have killed the local men and took the wives and embraced their culture.

[Lawalye]

Maybe but aren't the branches of R1b common in Iberia different than those common in other countries?

They are many branches everywhere and that doesn't change anything.

[Petalpusher]

Celts are just this in the ethnicity/genetic sense

http://s9.postimg.org/riqkj83qn/39c433797e7d3fe0cb68bce4e202555f.jpg

The Germanic, everything north of Hallstatt/La tene, then you shake, mix and spread that soup even a bit more around, in different proportions, and you get the Celto-Germanic.

[Lawalye]

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/680559CelticEurope.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=680559CelticEurope.gif)

See, this is the celtic haplogroups. It suit perfectly with the map of celtic migration.

[Petalpusher]

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/680559CelticEurope.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=680559CelticEurope.gif)

See, this is the celtic haplogroups. It suit perfectly with the map of celtic migration.

Exactly, then you add this :

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

That's why Brit come off the most Celto-Germanic in general, they have high amount of both influences

[Lawalye]

Exactly, then you add this :

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

That's why Brit come off the most Celto-Germanic in general, they have high amount of both influences

The problem with the germanic map is that it's absolutely not accurate, only R1B-U106 is truly germanic, the others come from germanized population.

[Petalpusher]

The problem with the germanic map is that it's absolutely not accurate, only R1B-U106 is truly germanic, the others come from germanized population.

Yes if you mean L1, they are still Germanic but pre-Germanic, and other clades are germanized. It gets the whole idea though of what Celto-Germanic would be.

U106 split North, and for example U152, West and South.

[Lawalye]

This is the only true germanic map :


http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/776133HaplogroupR1bS21.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=776133HaplogroupR1bS21.gif)

I1 is not germanic at all. The ancestors of the germanic tribes were indo-europeans and came in Europe in the same migration movement than the ancestors of the celts and like them they had a R1B haplogroup.

[Petalpusher]

This is the only true germanic map :


http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/776133HaplogroupR1bS21.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=776133HaplogroupR1bS21.gif)

I1 is not germanic at all. The ancestors of the germanic tribes were indo-europeans and came in Europe in the same migration movement than the ancestors of the celts and like them they had a R1B haplogroup.


I know what you mean but it's gonna confuse people for now seeing all scandinavia is not "Germanic". the subject is Occitans that are still Celto germanic in a very broad sense but much more Celtic and med influenced. We could do the same with the Celtic Ydna.

[Lawalye]

I know what you mean but it's gonna confuse people for now seeing all scandinavia is not "Germanic". the subject is Occitans that are still Celto germanic in a very broad sense but much more Celtic and med influenced. We could do the same with the Celtic Ydna.

The scandinavians are always mad when you tell them that they aren't the anthentic germanic, but this is only truth.

[Petalpusher]

The scandinavians are always mad when you tell them that they aren't the anthentic germanic, but this is only truth.

The important thing is to understand haplogroups and genetic similarities are not the same. Because for example if i take the Irish, they have very low U106 but they are extremely close in genetic similarities with other people that are highly U106. I mean they are almost indistinguishable from North Dutch, North German and quite close to Danish, Norwegian because they had that "germanic" influence that we not always rightfully call so. They had it mostly with other R1b/L21 and a bit of L1, but it's true in the stict sense, only R1b U106 is really Germanic.

You have to get the big picture first, then you get deeper in it.

[Lawalye]

The important thing is to understand haplogroups and genetic similarities are not the same. Because for example if i take the Irish, they have very low U106 but they are extremely close in genetic similarities with other people that are highly U106. I mean they are almost indistinguishable from North Dutch, North German and quite close to Danish, Norwegian because they had that "germanic" influence that we not always rightfully call so. They had it mostly with other R1b/L21 and a bit of L1, but it's true in the stict sense, only R1b U106 is really Germanic.

You have to get the big picture first, then you get deeper in it.

Of course, genetic is very complex and I do understand, but genetic proximity is about the closer common ancestor. I believe that the Y-Dna Haplogroup is a very good tool to understand the origin of a population.