Baltic Finnic N1c arrival in the Baltic Sea region

[Äijä]

What are the possible scenarios for this group? Historically mentioned peoples they might be connected to?




http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/


http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

[Äijä]

Should this subgroup be named differently or will studies come to the conclusion that Rurik and Varangians where at least in part Finnic?

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8564/l550v.jpg

[Äijä]

bumb

[Not a Cop]

Should this subgroup be named differently or will studies come to the conclusion that Rurik and Varangians where at least in part Finnic?

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8564/l550v.jpg

Is this a Rurikid cluster?

[Dombra]

Should this subgroup be named differently or will studies come to the conclusion that Rurik and Varangians where at least in part Finnic?

There is still much one can do to sophisticate the research of N1c so we will have to see

Rurik was probably part Finnic :) Finnic admixture and its range is underestimated in general

[Äijä]

Is this a Rurikid cluster?

Sort of, that has also "cousin" lines, old picture I just took to get some attention.

The real meat are the YFull estimates.:)

[Rugevit]

I've been with your through this already.

N1c1 was found in Zhizhitskaya culture in Smolensk Russia on the eastern border of Belarus dated to 4,500 years.


http://s020.radikal.ru/i704/1502/be/a19103cc4d67.png


http://oi60.tinypic.com/k0he0o.jpg



The Zhizhitskaya archaeological culture was surrounded by Corded-Ware culture. THe differences between the Zhizhitskaya and Corded-Ware is the material culture of the former being built on tombs in the lake near water. Furthermore, people of Zhizhitskaya had agricultural practices similar to those of central Europe. Make a mental note N1c1 in Zhizhitskaya is 4,500 years old.


TheComb Ceramic culturewhich included the Narva culture encompassed territories of north-eastern Europe. There is some debate about the language of inhabitants of the Narva culture. Some scholars suggest that inhabitants were paleo-European speakers based on evidence of toponyms and hydronyms. The Comb Ceramic culture was replaced by Corded-ware horizon associated with IE family of languages by scholars. Proto-Finnic speakers migrated to Baltic shore around 3,000 from Volga-Ural direction as per Finnish scholars.

Who could spread N1c1 in the Baltic region in the light of this information? All three - paleo-Europeans, Indo-Europeans and proto-Finnic could be responsible for spreading N1c1 into the Baltic region. It was certainly not proto-Finnic speakers in western Russia, Smolensk 4,500 years ago given linguistic evidence. From Smolensk Russia, N1c1 could travel along Daugava/western Dvina River into northern Belarus , Latvia and Lithuania.

[Äijä]

I've been with your through this already.

N1c1 was found in Zhizhitskaya culture in Smolensk Russia on the eastern border of Belarus dated to 4,500 years.


http://s020.radikal.ru/i704/1502/be/a19103cc4d67.png


http://oi60.tinypic.com/k0he0o.jpg



The Zhizhitskaya archaeological culture was surrounded by Corded-Ware culture. THe differences between the Zhizhitskaya and Corded-Ware is the material culture of the former being built on tombs in the lake near water. Furthermore, people of Zhizhitskaya had agricultural practices similar to those of central Europe. Make a mental note N1c1 in Zhizhitskaya is 4,500 years old.


TheComb Ceramic culturewhich included the Narva culture encompassed territories of north-eastern Europe. There is some debate about the language of inhabitants of the Narva culture. Some scholars suggest that inhabitants were paleo-European speakers based on evidence of toponyms and hydronyms. The Comb Ceramic culture was replaced by Corded-ware horizon associated with IE family of languages by scholars. Proto-Finnic speakers migrated to Baltic shore around 3,000 from Volga-Ural direction as per Finnish scholars.

Who could spread N1c1 in the Baltic region in the light of this information? All three - paleo-Europeans, Indo-Europeans and proto-Finnic could be responsible for spreading N1c1 into the Baltic region. It was certainly not proto-Finnic speakers in western Russia, Smolensk 4,500 years ago given linguistic evidence. From Smolensk Russia, N1c1 could travel along Daugava/western Dvina River into northern Belarus , Latvia and Lithuania.

Where does the N1c found there fit in the tree?

[Äijä]

There is still much one can do to sophisticate the research of N1c so we will have to see

Rurik was probably part Finnic :) Finnic admixture and its range is underestimated in general

Here you can look Sweden by regions, Svealand has a lot of it.

http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplopie&lang=en&haplo_level=1&lan_sel=S%2CW%2CZ&database=shd

[Rugevit]

Here you can look Sweden by regions, Svealand has a lot of it.

http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplopie&lang=en&haplo_level=1&lan_sel=S%2CW%2CZ&database=shd


Until subclades of the Smolensk N1c1 are determined there is no way of knowing where it can fit in the tree. Unlikely it's an Asian branch.

[Äijä]

Until subclades of the Smolensk N1c1 are determined there is no way of knowing where it can fit in the tree. Unlikely it's an Asian branch.

So you are speculating, can you speculate more?

In what region do you think VL29 branch originated?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

N-L1022 ?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1022/

N-L550 ?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L550/

N-L1025 ?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1025/

[Rugevit]

So you are speculating, can you speculate more?

In what region do you think VL29 branch originated?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

N-L1022 ?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1022/

N-L550 ?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L550/

N-L1025 ?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1025/


There are high chances of finding subclade in Zhizhitskaya (4,500 ybp) similar to those of the Baltic region. Anyone will tell you that.

[Äijä]

There are high chances of finding subclade in Zhizhitskaya (4,500 ybp) similar to those of the Baltic region. Anyone will tell you that.

How can it be similar when these where not even born then?

[Rugevit]

How can it be similar when these where not even born then?

Similar as in the same major branch from which east Baltic tree separated. I would also not trust the estimates for age of mutations, as they change every 2-3 years. Latest carbon dating techniques are a lot more reliable.

[Äijä]

Similar as in the same major branch from which east Baltic tree separated. I would also not trust the estimates for age of mutations, as they change every 2-3 years. Latest carbon dating techniques are a lot more reliable.

The Balts separate from this, where do you think this mutation happened?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1025/

[Black Wolf]

Interestingly enough my cousin who took a Y-DNA test at only 37 STR markers is predicted to be N-L550. This line represents my paternal grandmother's father's line. So my great grandfather from Ikaalinen Finland was a member of haplogroup N1c1 (likely N-L550).

[Äijä]

Interestingly enough my cousin who took a Y-DNA test at only 37 STR markers is predicted to be N-L550. This line represents my paternal grandmother's father's line. So my great grandfather from Ikaalinen Finland was a member of haplogroup N1c1 (likely N-L550).

Another "Varangian", hope he does YFull.

[Äijä]

Same discussion going here.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/44375-Population-genomics-of-Bronze-Age-Eurasia?p=1196606&viewfull=1#post1196606

[blogen]

N1 = pre or maybe proto-Uralic migration from Central Asia to Eastern Europe presumably.

http://s27.postimg.org/5op8gia77/N_YDNA.jpg

[Äijä]

N1 = pre or maybe proto-Uralic migration from Central Asia to Eastern Europe presumably.

http://s27.postimg.org/5op8gia77/N_YDNA.jpg


Not really what we are talking about in this thread, the subject is the arrival in the Baltic Sea region.

[Artek]

My great-grandfather presumably belonged to this line (his descendant was tested), matches are connected mostly with Lithuanians or people of Lithuanian descent but I've done only 12 markers.

It seems that it's a relatively recent intrusion in Indo-European speaking Balts. Haplotypes are close to each other (that's why I was being told that it's almost necessary to have at least 67 markers+SNPs for proper classification) and YFull estimates are, IMHO, quite reliable. It should be worth noting, that N1c consisted more significant part of Lithuanian elite, than it would seem from general frequencies of various haplogroups among Lithuanians (advantage of N1c-L1025 over R1a-Z280 in aristocracy is more pronounced.). I don't count R1a-M458 as being clearly slavic, maybe with an exception of CTS11962+ YP515+(xL1029).

Adding to this a different, more recent pattern of N1c-L1025, when compared to TMRCA and branching of Baltic R1a-Z280 subtypes (various clades of CTS1211xCTS3402, CTS3402+ YP237+, Z92), I think that it can be a result of some sort non-documented intrusion with element of elite-dominance and that Balts were once more frequently R1a(although it needs more careful insight). Maybe it's just some sort of internal genetic drift? Populations were significantly smaller back then, especially in such regions.
Anyway, late Bronze Age Lithuanian from Turlojiske lying south of Marijampole, dated to 908 BC-485 BC, was R1a. From a period, when L1025 could've just started expanding or some time before it.

[Äijä]

My great-grandfather presumably belonged to this line (his descendant was tested), matches are connected mostly with Lithuanians or people of Lithuanian descent but I've done only 12 markers.

It seems that it's a relatively recent intrusion in Indo-European speaking Balts. Haplotypes are close to each other (that's why I was being told that it's almost necessary to have at least 67 markers+SNPs for proper classification) and YFull estimates are, IMHO, quite reliable. It should be worth noting, that N1c consisted more significant part of Lithuanian elite, than it would seem from general frequencies of various haplogroups among Lithuanians (advantage of N1c-L1025 over R1a-Z280 in aristocracy is more pronounced.).

Adding to this a different, more recent pattern of N1c-L1025, when compared to TMRCA and branching of Baltic R1a-Z280 subtypes (various clades of CTS1211xCTS3402, CTS3402+ YP237+, Z92), I think that it can be a result of some sort non-documented intrusion with element of elite-dominance and that Balts were once more frequently R1a(although it needs more careful insight). Maybe it's just some sort of internal genetic drift? Populations were significantly smaller back then, especially in such regions.
Anyway, late Bronze Age Lithuanian from Turlojiske lying south of Marijampole, dated to 908 BC-485 BC, was R1a. From a period, when L1025 could've just started expanding or some time before it.

I know this is the reason they go ballistic about this possible Finnic origin.
One group that shoud be tested is Curonian nobility, they raided with Kvens and where close with Estonians, I bet they are mostly N1c1.

[Äijä]

This is pure speculation and much later times so any connection would have to have been erased from the history books.

Finns supported Sigismund, there was an army assembled in his support by the old Finnish nobility to be sent to Sweden.
After that war Finnish nobility lost its heads, positions or escaped to Poland.

[Äijä]

Sigismund was related to the Gediminids from his mothers side so there is one connection again to the N1c clans.

[Äijä]

More Estonian, Svealand and Gotland N1c would help a lot in building the Yfull tree. :(

[Rugevit]

Balts were once more frequently R1a(although it needs more careful insight). Maybe it's just some sort of internal genetic drift? Populations were significantly smaller back then, especially in such regions.

I think that too. Ethnic Lithuanians in south-eastern Lithuania have R1a ~62% today. YChromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Variationin Lithuanians in which a large sample (n=196) representing all regions of Lithuania were obtained.

https://photos-3.dropbox.com/t/2/AAA8QKRc6F-w27kcTzDXFNWQP7TifDQBML9598HTSU2l4w/12/300657792/png/32x32/1/_/1/2/p1.png/CIDZro8BIAEgAiADIAQgBSAGIAcoAQ/fnkJcJWFeSxWaeXJLDQoY5RiMaxvjYrCww7K3tXo_qA?size=1 280x960&size_mode=2

[Äijä]

Can someone explain what are the main arguments in insisting the Aesti where a Baltic tribe? What is the preferred explanation how the name transferred to Estonia?


The earliest version of the name of Vistula Lagoon has been recorded in historical sources by Wulfstan, an Anglo-Saxon sailor and merchant at the end of the 9th Century as Estmere.[2] It is an Anglo-Saxon translation of Old Prussian name for the lagoon - *Aīstinmari (modern Lithuanian - Aistmarės) derived from (OP - Old Prussian) Aistei - "Ests", (LAT - Latin)"Aestii" etc. and (OP) *mari - "lagoon (a body of water cut off from a larger body by a reef of sand), fresh water bay".[3] The Ests were Baltic people who since 9th Century became called in some historical sources (first time by Bavarian Geographer) Bruzi, Pruzzen, Pruteni etc. - Old Prussians. So the oldest known meaning of the name of Vistula Lagoon was "The lagoon or sea of the Ests".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Lagoon

[Äijä]

Ulfberht Swords

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/backbone/rb_4_3.html

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/illustr/ulfbehrt_map.gif