Classify Sahelian girl

[Wadaad]

http://commenti.kataweb.it/commenti/multimedia//1022588/2012/01/18/image/378848.jpg

[themrdude1990]

looks like a pigmented arabid to me

[Wadaad]

She is a Fulbe from Niger

[Era]

She doesnt look arabid to me.

[Wadaad]

She doesnt look arabid to me.

How would you classify her?

[Gaston]

Too young.

[Wadaad]

Too young.

Not at all, her features are very well developed.

[Wadaad]

Anyways, I think she's a good representative of West Aethiopid, which is a long established phenotype in the Sahel region (Senegal to Sudan) and well represented in West African face masks

http://tolik.my3gb.com/cpap/images/2-african-face-masks.jpg

[Siginulfo]

Sahelid subtype of Sudanid

[Wadaad]

Sahelid subtype of Sudanid

Fulbe and other Sahelids are for the most part not a subtype of Sudanids but mixed to varying degrees with them. And in further north, mixed with Berberid types.

Many have a vague Somali appearance

http://www.townbeacon.com/fulbe/images/shepard1.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvHcUlVCcAA_sAl.jpg:large

http://i.imgur.com/kKdylVO.jpg

[Siginulfo]

Fulbe and other Sahelids are for the most part not a subtype of Sudanids but mixed to varying degrees with them. And in further north, mixed with Berberid types.

Many have a vague Somali appearance

http://www.townbeacon.com/fulbe/images/shepard1.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvHcUlVCcAA_sAl.jpg:large

http://i.imgur.com/kKdylVO.jpg

You are right, original Sahelid was a subtype of Nilotid (http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5504302/1/)

[Wadaad]

Crimson Guard IP banned me from there unfortunately...but that makes more sense.

[Wadaad]

btw this phenotype is completely absent from the New World except as recent immigration to Europe :lol:

The Fulbe are cattle herders...hence, lactose tolerant Africans. Most New World blacks are lactose intolerant

[Damião de Góis]

I thought only somalis and ethiopians had this look. Niger is well in central Africa.
Although she is very young like other peope have said.

[Wadaad]

I thought only somalis and ethiopians had this look. Niger is well in central Africa.
Although she is very young like other peope have said.

There has been a spread of culturally Muslim Sahelids westwards and eastwards from Lake Chad and also southwards, they would have continued spreading but it only stopped in the 19th century by colonialism.


Cameroon:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoXB4DhIIAAufS_.jpg

[Gaston]

Not at all, her features are very well developed.

She looks paedomorphic with those big eyes and full face.



Fulani/fulbe/peul/etc people are all North African-admixed, so they often look distinct from West Africans (narrower nose and mid-face projection, less prognath, less nappy hair etc...).

Their lactase persistence allele is the "European" type, which peaks in Northern Europe and high in Fulanis. Probably introduced trough Northwest Africa where it is also present.

[Siginulfo]

Crimson Guard IP banned me from there unfortunately...but that makes more sense.

"-Sahelid: This type was once common throughout much of the Western Sahel but today, it is restricted to Eastern Mali and Western Niger. It can be seen very often in the Zaghawa, and infrequently in the Hausa and Tuareg. The original Sahelid was most likely an ancient Nilotid type slightly influenced by Wodaabid and later heavily by Saharid, the latter which caused the dispersion and coalescence of various groups within the Western Sahel. Brachycephaly, a wide forehead, and a snub to straight nose are most common as well as a defined jawline. The skin is a medium brown with yellow undertones. Sahelid is essentially a blend between Sahelian types and Saharid. There is a strong overlap with Nilo-Saharid that weakens as one goes East."

[Wadaad]

She looks paedomorphic with those big eyes and full face.



Fulani/fulbe/peul/etc people are all North African-admixed, so they often look distinct from West Africans (narrower nose and mid-face projection, less prognath, less nappy hair etc...).

Their lactase persistence allele is the "European" type, which peaks in Northern Europe and high in Fulanis. Probably introduced trough Northwest Africa where it is also present.

do you have source for the lactase allele being the European type? Lactose tolerance peaks in the Horn of African groups like Somalis, Oromos and Afars (some whose diets are 90% dairy. I suspect it came with the E-M78 urheimat (Egypt/Nubia/Sudan) and spread to the horn, Nile Valley and the Sahel with the formation of Sahara desert and the migration of thes people towards these areas.

[Siginulfo]

do you have source for the lactase allele being the European type? Lactose tolerance peaks in the Horn of African groups like Somalis, Oromos and Afars (some whose diets are 90% dairy. I suspect it came with the E-M78 urheimat (Egypt/Nubia/Sudan) and spread to the horn, Nile Valley and the Sahel with the formation of Sahara desert and the migration of thes people towards these areas.

Although the T-13910 variant was absent across most of Africa, we detected this polymorphism in the Mozabite from Algeria (northern Africa) at a frequency of 27.3% and in a few central African populations, namely the Arabic Baggara and Fulani from Cameroon (8% and 22.9% frequency, respectively) and the Bulala from Chad (2.2% frequency) (Tables S1 and S8; Figures 2 and 3). The highest frequency of the T-13910 variant outside of Africa was found in northern Europeans (66.7%), and the lowest frequency occurred in the Middle East (2.2%–4.2%).

See here http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929714000676

[Willem]

Fulanis have nothing to do with Ethiopians or Aethiopids. Many genetic studies prove this. They are simply West African with minor Berberid.

[spanish catalan]

negroid + aethiopid

[Wadaad]

Fulanis have nothing to do with Ethiopians or Aethiopids. Many genetic studies prove this. They are simply West African with minor Berberid.

those genetic studies are outdated and the sample studies arent big enough for you to make such a claim

[spanish catalan]

for me east africa is the negroid homeland,bantu people have caucasoid admixture

[Wadaad]

Although the T-13910 variant was absent across most of Africa, we detected this polymorphism in the Mozabite from Algeria (northern Africa) at a frequency of 27.3% and in a few central African populations, namely the Arabic Baggara and Fulani from Cameroon (8% and 22.9% frequency, respectively) and the Bulala from Chad (2.2% frequency) (Tables S1 and S8; Figures 2 and 3). The highest frequency of the T-13910 variant outside of Africa was found in northern Europeans (66.7%), and the lowest frequency occurred in the Middle East (2.2%–4.2%).

See here http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929714000676

OK...but going by those percentages, that can't be the only allele responsible for lactase persistence in Sahelids and Horners and some Nilotes like Masais.

edit...I am right, just call me Sherlock Holmes:


lso known as "C/T(-13910)", and located in the MCM6 gene but with influence on the lactase LCT gene, rs4988235 is one of two SNPs that is associated with the primary haplotype associated with hypolactasia, more commonly known as lactose intolerance in European Caucasian populations. [PMID 11788828], [PMID 15114531OA-icon.png]
In these populations, the rs4988235(T) allele is both the more common allele and the one associated with lactase persistence; individuals who are rs4988235(C;C) are likely to be lactose intolerant.

In populations of sub-Saharan Africans, though, the rs4988235(T) allele is so rare that it's unlikely to be predictive of lactase persistence, and other SNPs are predictive instead. [PMID 15106124, PMID 17159977]

http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs4988235

[Willem]

those genetic studies are outdated and the sample studies arent big enough for you to make such a claim

First of all, why are you downvoting someone who claims something based on genetics and isn't trolling? That is not what it is for.

Secondly, it is not outdated. Fulanis have been sampled recently on autosomal tests. They are intermediate between the Senegalese and Moroccans. They cluster nowhere near Ethiopians who are intermediate between Nilotes and Arabians.

http://i.imgur.com/HrVcoaF.png

http://dioegenesartemis.blogspot.com/2011/05/back-to-africa-populations.html

[Gaston]

do you have source for the lactase allele being the European type? Lactose tolerance peaks in the Horn of African groups like Somalis, Oromos and Afars (some whose diets are 90% dairy. I suspect it came with the E-M78 urheimat (Egypt/Nubia/Sudan) and spread to the horn, Nile Valley and the Sahel with the formation of Sahara desert and the migration of thes people towards these areas.


The highest lactase persistence doesn't peak in the Horn of Africa but in Northern Europe, where it reaches almost 100% in some group.

And yes, the Fulani people of the "European" LP allele, and even in the "European" allele (which is found in North Africa, West Asia and South Asia), they have exclusively the European haplotype. In contrast, Berbers have the European allele but both the European and the West Asian haplotype. Just google "European lactase persistence".


There are other LP alleles, which are unrelated to each other, in Eurasia and Africa (including several East African and Arabian ones) but they don't exist in Fulanis.


Also, there is no direct link between Horners and Fulani people. The latter is ultimately of Senegambian origin with significant North African admixture. Very easily seen here:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4678/43935589.png

[Wadaad]

First of all, why are you downvoting someone who claims something based on genetics and isn't trolling? That is not what it is for.

Secondly, it is not outdated. Fulanis have been sampled recently on autosomal tests. They are intermediate between the Senegalese and Moroccans. They cluster nowhere near Ethiopians who are intermediate between Nilotes and Arabians.

http://i.imgur.com/HrVcoaF.png

http://dioegenesartemis.blogspot.com/2011/05/back-to-africa-populations.html

Where do I begin...atleast your chart confirms my previous statement regarding Fulanis being unrelated to African Americans and other New World Blacks.

Secondly, "Ethiopian" means absolutely nothing. It is like "Canadian"

Third, all those autosomal groups (Nilo-Saharans, NE Africans, NW Africans...where is the urheimat? mostly being EM78, so again pre-agricultural Egypt/Libya/Sudan

[Willem]

Where do I begin...atleast your chart confirms my previous statement regarding Fulanis being unrelated to African Americans and other New World Blacks.

Secondly, "Ethiopian" means absolutely nothing. It is like "Canadian"

Third, all those autosomal groups (Nilo-Saharans, NE Africans, NW Africans...where is the urheimat? mostly being EM78, so again pre-agricultural Egypt/Libya/Sudan

Most Ethiopians are very similar.

The composite are Oromos and Amharas.

Anyhow, here is ANOTHER study proving my point (from 2015):

http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150528/srep09996//images/srep09996-f3.jpg
http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150528/srep09996//images/srep09996-f1.jpg
http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150528/srep09996//images/srep09996-f2.jpg

Again, Fulanis do not cluster with the Beja or Ethiopians.

http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150528/srep09996/full/srep09996.html

[Wadaad]

The highest lactase persistence doesn't peak in the Horn of Africa but in Northern Europe, where it reaches almost 100% in some group.

And yes, the Fulani people of the "European" LP allele, and even in the "European" allele (which is found in North Africa, West Asia and South Asia), they have exclusively the European haplotype. In contrast, Berbers have the European allele but both the European and the West Asian haplotype. Just google "European lactase persistence".


There are other LP alleles, which are unrelated to each other, in Eurasia and Africa (including several East African and Arabian ones) but they don't exist in Fulanis.


Also, there is no direct link between Horners and Fulani people. The latter is ultimately of Senegambian origin with significant North African admixture. Very easily seen here:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4678/43935589.png

am I missing something?

http://i.imgur.com/dtCftOg.png

[Willem]

^ It doesn't imply similar origin. Their subcomponents are different.

[Willem]

3 dimensional africa pca shows it better that fulanis are not related to ethiopians:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sVWa8OE56yE/T02FszxLpMI/AAAAAAAAANg/ylgVDlRLaVY/s1600/3D_2.png

[Wadaad]

3 dimensional africa pca shows it better that fulanis are not related to ethiopians:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sVWa8OE56yE/T02FszxLpMI/AAAAAAAAANg/ylgVDlRLaVY/s1600/3D_2.png

what parameters are used to determine pca again?

anyways...these incomplete studies are irrelevent until a future time, the sample size is usually 1 or 2 dudes to represent the whole ethnic group. Especially when it comes to Ethiopia, check page 16: http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150528/srep09996//extref/srep09996-s1.pdf

40 "Fulanis" (Could be anything from Dogons, to Wolofs to whatever) whose ethnic subdivision is unreported, 2 "Oromos" living in Khartoum, etc.

[Willem]

what parameters are used to determine pca again?

anyways...these incomplete studies are irrelevent until a future time, the sample size is usually 1 or 2 dudes to represent the whole ethnic group. Especially when it comes to Ethiopia, check page 16: http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150528/srep09996//extref/srep09996-s1.pdf

40 "Fulanis" (Could be anything from Dogons, to Wolofs to whatever) whose ethnic subdivision is unreported, 2 "Oromos" living in Khartoum, etc.

PCA is simply a graphical representation of genetic variation. It takes 10,000s or 100,000s of alleles into consideration.

Most old world ethnic groups are fairly similar. There is not much genetic variation from individual to individual as you see they mostly cluster around one area. Most studies don't sample more than 20 individuals for this reason as less is more in this case. Results are replicable.

The Fulanis from the first batch were Wodaabe from Niger. The Fulanis from the second batch were from Darfur Sudan.

[Wadaad]

PCA is simply a graphical representation of genetic variation. It takes 10,000s or 100,000s of alleles into consideration.

Most old world ethnic groups are fairly similar. There is not much genetic variation from individual to individual as you see they mostly cluster around one area. Most studies don't sample more than 20 individuals for this reason as less is more in this case. Results are replicable.

The Fulanis from the first batch were Wodaabe from Niger. The Fulanis from the second batch were from Darfur Sudan.

So when did these groups branch off from each other based on where they plot?

[Willem]

So when did these groups branch off from each other based on where they plot?

The Niger Fulanis are more Senegambian + Berber.

The Darfur Fulanis are more Nilotic than the above but still carry Senegambian & Berber.

[Wadaad]

The Niger Fulanis are more Senegambian + Berber.

The Darfur Fulanis are more Nilotic than the above but still carry Senegambian & Berber.

Anyway to deduce time frame ?

[Willem]

Anyway to deduce time frame ?

Not sure. Haven't looked into that.

But the Fulani ethnic group is not that old, they expanded in the past couple of centuries. You probably know better since you are a history buff.

[Wadaad]

Not sure. Haven't looked into that.

But the Fulani ethnic group is not that old, they expanded in the past couple of centuries. You probably know better since you are a history buff.

Indeed, there doesnt seem to be much mention of them before the 1800s. Their expansion follows the Osman Dan Fodio's jihads and Islamic revivals in West Africa. That is the beauty of Islam, new tribes and ethnic groups are always forming...the Gaddafi tribe are like only a 50 years old for example.

[averagedude]

Aethiopid