Europe in 50 years, more or less religious?

[Austin]

I have been wondering and thinking about Europe's secular aspect in respect to European native peoples. It seems to me that European secularism is in big trouble with all the religious immigrants and their offspring outpacing the indigenous populations breeding rate.

So I ask, will Europe remain overall secular or become a twisted version of America except with Islam instead of Christianity as the zealous faith?

I have watched and read how even the immigrants children remain very religious if not more so than their parents, so I don't buy the argument that they will go secular as they haven't so far it would seem.

[Don Brick]

Probably less Christian, more Islamic. However I do think all parties will continue to secularize in the long run.

[Wyn]

A largely secular/non-religious Europe (legally, and practically among native Europeans) with a strong Islamic community seems the most likely outcome, considering the decline in religious adherence of native Europeans coupled with the population expansion of Muslims.

[Equinox]

Islam will become increasingly more secular, the more we ignore them.

It is a bizarre way to look at things, but hear me out:

You say about second generation Muslims being increasingly more militant. I, for one, do not accept this as being reflective of a people or peoples that are more religious. Rather it is behaviour we could expect to see from people who feel entirely displaced. People who have a murky social status at best and little culture to hold onto. Islam is not the be all and end all of culture for these people, not by a long shot.

As for Europe, I think religious affiliation will remain quite constant. If the numbers of immigrants from the Muslim world were to be capped at the number it is in this given moment, then Islam will have significantly decreased in number in 50 years time. Atheism is a disease that infests all peoples.

The Christian population will remain relatively constant. Theirs is a tradition that has endured. While many people have opted not to pass on Christian traditions to their children, those that have for the past few generations are the hard core of the devoted. Islam has never faced the secular society which decimated the Christian faith.

Hopefully there will be a heathen resurgence in Europe as people search for their cultures - something to discriminate them from the rest of the diseased, secular, consumerist world.

[Wulfhere]

There is no evidence at all that Muslims will become secularised. All the evidence points the other way. There will be massively more of them by then, and they will probably have gained political power in a large number of cities etc.

Christianity will continue to decline. It's already virtually dead on its feet in places like England, where the vast majority of churchgoers are old age pensioners.

Paganism will continue to expand as it has done for the past few decades, as ever more people turn to it to discover their roots in the face of the apparent destruction of their culture. But it will remain diffuse and divided.

[San Galgano]

The problem is not entirely that Europe's native citizens are secularizing religion.
In some cases even Islam became secularized, look in part at Turkye and Giordania.

The problem will be when the secularized Islam will take place in Europe. This would mean that we have been already entirely islamized and that we are ready to pass to the 2nd phase.

[Libertas]

The problem is not entirely that Europe's native citizens are secularizing religion.
In some cases even Islam became secularized, look in part at Turkye and Giordania.

The problem will be when the secularized Islam will take place in Europe. This would mean that we have been already entirely islamized and that we are ready to pass to the 2nd phase.

With Islam there will be no second phase.

[San Galgano]

There will be a second phase as it happens with everything . Not before they have slaughtered all the europeans though.

[Cato]

Less Christian, unless following the rituals and formulas of Christianity as a societal custom, more Islamic (how horrid), more pagan (as people get away from Christianity), more secular.

All in all, more confused than it is now.

[Groenewolf]

Paganism will continue to expand as it has done for the past few decades, as ever more people turn to it to discover their roots in the face of the apparent destruction of their culture. But it will remain diffuse and divided.

Paganism, or what goes trough for it, will most likely continue to grow. The question is how it will face the challenges ahead and if would gain a solid base.

[Murphy]

Less religious across the board.

Christianity, most especially Catholicism is going to seriously dwindle. I will be looking back on my youth as the Golden Age of the Church. I can see serious attacks on the independence of the Vatican. Islam will be seriously secularised as Christianity has been.

As people abandon Christianity, some will go for Islam but most will simply become agnostic materialist robots. Paganism isn't usurping Christianity in Europe and nor really is Islam. Nothingness is usurping Christianity. Humanist-relativism. Nothing matters but the next pay-cheque and the latest designer shoe.

You think Christianity is fucked? Paganism is even more so, being that it is not taken seriously by anyone.

Well my friends. Christianity in Europe is dead.

I hope the replacement suits your tastes just fine. It is the very vehicle of everything you lament about on this forum so I don't think you will.

But it's better than Christianity right?

[Beorn]

Paganism is even more so, being that it is not taken seriously by anyone.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/06/21/article-1288255-0A205091000005DC-326_964x522.jpg

[Debaser11]

Islam will become increasingly more secular, the more we ignore them.

It is a bizarre way to look at things, but hear me out:

You say about second generation Muslims being increasingly more militant. I, for one, do not accept this as being reflective of a people or peoples that are more religious. Rather it is behaviour we could expect to see from people who feel entirely displaced. People who have a murky social status at best and little culture to hold onto. Islam is not the be all and end all of culture for these people, not by a long shot.

As for Europe, I think religious affiliation will remain quite constant. If the numbers of immigrants from the Muslim world were to be capped at the number it is in this given moment, then Islam will have significantly decreased in number in 50 years time. Atheism is a disease that infests all peoples.

The Christian population will remain relatively constant. Theirs is a tradition that has endured. While many people have opted not to pass on Christian traditions to their children, those that have for the past few generations are the hard core of the devoted. Islam has never faced the secular society which decimated the Christian faith.

Hopefully there will be a heathen resurgence in Europe as people search for their cultures - something to discriminate them from the rest of the diseased, secular, consumerist world.

Good post. I still think there is too much faith tied to your view.

[Lithium]

Less christian, more ateistic and maybe pagan ( if we are talking about the natives ) and predominately muslim ( if we are taking it as a whole population )

[Atlas]

By 2060 ? Probaly three times more Muslims, less Christians and Atheistics.

[Wulfhere]

On reflection, the scenario I described is probably going to be the case in ten years. In fifty years, either there will either be no Muslims in Europe (or at least very few), or the whole of Europe will be Muslim by law (with a few outlawed dissenters).

[Austin]

Mehhh I don't see Islam losing as much ground to secularism in the West as Christianity has. Islam seems to be more primitive and most its followers come from primitive cultures that didn't achieve half of what the Western cultures have. I do not see the average Islamic follower being sophisticated enough to reach secularization on Western levels.

Turkey has a halfhearted fake secularism at best it isn't really comparable to actual, legitimate secularization such as the West or East has. Islam is much too archaic to lead to a natural level of mental secularization from what I see so far.

[Curtis24]

You'll have parallel communities, with two different governments - Europeans and Muslims. Europeans will be secular and preserve civil rights. Muslims won't be.

[Svipdag]

Equinox, if you had read the "glorious" Qur'an, you would realise that the more
truly Islamic the religious practise of Muslims is, the more militaristic it must be because Islam is a militaristic religion. At least, this will be true until there are no more infidels to fight. Islam demands and requires of the faithful that they wage ceaseless war against infidels.

Of course, once the world is the House of Islam, it must perforce become the House of Peace because all of Islam's foes will have been either converted or exterminated.

Unless there is some effective opposition to Islamisation , I would venture to predict that in 50 years, Europe, at least, will be Dar al-Islam [the House of Islam]. Then European Islam could become less militant. This does NOT mean that it will be secularised. Secularism requires a freedom of thought which Islam not only does not encourage, it does not even tolerate it.

Turkey's secularism is as strong as it can be in a nominally Muslim country. It is Turkey's adherence to Islam which is weak. Doctrinaire Muslims in Turkey
hate and curse Kemal "Atatürk" not for secularising Turkish society, but for undermining Islam. I have seen them denounce him for this reason in other fora and in chat rooms.

Where Islam is strong, it cannot be secularised. An Islamic Europe will be just that: ISLAMIC, not secular. God help Christians,Jews, intellectuals,and patriots.

[ikki]

western europe will be fully islamic states by that time, and will have been so for atleast 20 years. In other words a young generation of muslims who have never known anything but a muslim world in what used to be western europe.

Because the rate of immigration will only accelerate. Precious few nations have any kind of protection. And even then mostly very weak. Switzerland may well be the sole survivor... even much of eastern europe will be majority muslim. Especially russia.

[ikki]

You'll have parallel communities, with two different governments - Europeans and Muslims. Europeans will be secular and preserve civil rights. Muslims won't be.

europids will be constantly attacked until death or conversion. Think zimbabwe and south african farmer murders. Except muslims are more systematic and efficient than niggers.

[Wyn]

You'll have parallel communities, with two different governments - Europeans and Muslims. Europeans will be secular and preserve civil rights. Muslims won't be.

A likely scenario. This can already be seen in the Muslim enclaves being formed in European cities and towns and in the (currently limited and non-official) recognition of Sharia courts in the UK (we can probably expect Sharia to gain increasing officialdom).

[CelticTemplar]

Probably less Christian, more Islamic. However I do think all parties will continue to secularize in the long run.

I agree, due to the recent influx of religious of Muslims from places such as Pakistan, and Turkey.