[SPLIT] Utopia - why it does or doesn't work?

[Vargtand]

Edit: This is going out of hand, what I mean is I see no need for helping other races than our own. Hell I don't even see a real need to give life-support to our own.

What I am trying to get at is that I desire to have a harsher world, not a fluffy kind of world. A real world in essence where there is both joy and misery that is an utopia I know, but I want to see it all in balance, then you can not have people surviving only because of an other peoples good graces.

If you can't survive on your own then you die, simple.

[Beorn]

I had just written a reply to your previous posting. :D Never mind!
With your wishes in mind, I will answer the post you desired to present.


Edit: This is going out of hand, what I mean is I see no need for helping other races than our own. Hell I don't even see a real need to give life-support to our own.

As it currently stands, with help needed for our own; I will agree with you. Priorities come first.


What I am trying to get at is that I desire to have a harsher world, not a fluffy kind of world. A real world in essence where there is both joy and misery that is an utopia I know, but I want to see it all in balance, then you can not have people surviving only because of an other peoples good graces.But that is the balance. That is utopia. To survive and to create stability by the measure of ones own hands would be perfection.

You would not have poverty as poverty by your own will would not exist.
It wouldn't involve donating to a charity to defeat poverty, it would simply be achieved by education and a healthy society.


If you can't survive on your own then you die, simple.Sorry to be pedantic, but there are many things in this world which can't survive alone without some form of aid or guidance. Including you as a child.

Would they be left to die?

[Vargtand]

I had just written a reply to your previous posting. :D Never mind!
With your wishes in mind, I will answer the post you desired to present.



As it currently stands, with help needed for our own; I will agree with you. Priorities come first.

But that is the balance. That is utopia. To survive and to create stability by the measure of ones own hands would be perfection.

You would not have poverty as poverty by your own will would not exist.
It wouldn't involve donating to a charity to defeat poverty, it would simply be achieved by education and a healthy society.

Here we differ as I see poverty existing in my utopia, I see war and misery existing I see death and decay. But I also see the good things. And all of these are in balance. To me that is utopia.

What you are describing is not balance it is the complete and utterly lack of balance you create a world where “bad” would no longer exists.


Sorry to be pedantic, but there are many things in this world which can't survive alone without some form of aid or guidance. Including you as a child.

Would they be left to die?

Naturally not as a child has a value to it’s parents, a child should according to the value children always had to their parents, namely that at the end of your years your children are to care for you, to return the favour so to speak.

[Beorn]

What you are describing is not balance it is the complete and utterly lack of balance you create a world where “bad” would no longer exists.

I am aware of the equilibrium of positive and negative, a ying and a yang, but I often wonder whether it is our purpose in life, our God(?) given destiny to achieve the singular status of life.


Naturally not as a child has a value to it’s parentsEverything has a value in life. That cannot be denied. Can it?


a child should according to the value children always had to their parents, namely that at the end of your years your children are to care for you, to return the favour so to speak.Agreed, but that was within our era of harsh lives where you needed the children to ensure your survival in later, declining years.
Today, thanks to greater understanding of our worth and our higher civilisation, we can support ourselves without the need to place hopes within a future.

Of course, I'm not saying that the harsh realities of life are eradicated and assigned to the bin forever. Poverty and reliance upon new generations are still required even in our western world.

What if that was to disappear through a greater step in social evolution. Would things be able to slip so easily into value and no-value perceptions?

[Vargtand]

I am aware of the equilibrium of positive and negative, a ying and a yang, but I often wonder whether it is our purpose in life, our God(?) given destiny to achieve the singular status of life.

Well I would personally not equal my thinking with some oriental hocus pocus. it is a reflection based on the knowledge I have and the experience I've gathered. It might be completely false but it is still not read from a book.


Everything has a value in life. That cannot be denied. Can it?

To someone yes not to everyone and certainly not to I. and it is only to I where one can judge what is necessary and what is not… and it is the folk which decides what is important and what is not, does the folk not have the strength to protect it then clearly it was not meant to be.



Agreed, but that was within our era of harsh lives where you needed the children to ensure your survival in later, declining years.
Today, thanks to greater understanding of our worth and our higher civilisation, we can support ourselves without the need to place hopes within a future.

Thanks to? You speak of it as if it was something good, you speak about this decadent society as a higher civilisation, it is a civilisation that forgets the simple fact that humans live within. We have a society where the best citizen is an emotionless mindless drone. Is this an ideal?

If asking me I rather live with savages as at least those knows what it truly means to be human, a society which allows all of mans nature to shine, not labelling certain parts of our mind and souls as inhumane. This is especially true for us men who must disown so much of our masculinity our aggression just to fit in to society. Society should bend around humans, not the other way around.


Of course, I'm not saying that the harsh realities of life are eradicated and assigned to the bin forever. Poverty and reliance upon new generations are still required even in our western world.

What if that was to disappear through a greater step in social evolution. Would things be able to slip so easily into value and no-value perceptions?

It is not desirable to rid of that. It’s not desirable from our natures standpoint.
If poverty disappeared if consequences disappeared completely then what would we become?
Meatbags.

[Beorn]

Well I would personally not equal my thinking with some oriental hocus pocus.

It isn't "oriental hocus pocus", it is consciously spread throughout all societies.


does the folk not have the strength to protect it then clearly it was not meant to be.But it does have the strength to protect it. It also has the power to go one step further and eternally prevent the need to have to protect it.


Thanks to? You speak of it as if it was something good, you speak about this decadent society as a higher civilisation, it is a civilisation that forgets the simple fact that humans live within. We have a society where the best citizen is an emotionless mindless drone. Is this an ideal? No, it isn't ideal.

Yet compared to previous societies the difference cannot be ignored in its favour.


Society should bend around humans, not the other way around.
Society is man made. It is society which bends. We are the controllers of our society.


It is not desirable to rid of that. It’s not desirable from our natures standpoint.Why?


If poverty disappeared if consequences disappeared completely then what would we become?Enlightened beings?

[Vargtand]

It isn't "oriental hocus pocus", it is consciously spread throughout all societies.
Well you made it sound as that was your value to it.


But it does have the strength to protect it. It also has the power to go one step further and eternally prevent the need to have to protect it.

You seem to be unable to grasp what I am saying, I am not talking about only you and what you see best I am talking each and every person each and every individual and generation. Everyone must experience and live trough hardship, live trough war live trough hunger otherwise the words them self’s hold no meaning and then they will never evolve.


Yet compared to previous societies the difference cannot be ignored in its favour.

Of course the differences can not be ignored how ever what is favourable depends on which light you view it. And during what time frame. You can say that in today’s society it is favourable that so many kids survive, yes but at what consequence? You only see that in several generations…



Society is man made. It is society which bends. We are the controllers of our society.

Yes society is man made, it has how ever gotten out of hand it is controlling those born into it as it exists as the only truth the only thing that all generations know so a world devoid of it is unthinkable. Do you truly think we control something that we can not imagine our self living without?


Why?[/quote]
Because you will be creating an un-natural society.
Enlightened beings?[/quote]

Well if you call decadent fools without anything that drives them to be enlightened then yes.

[Brynhild]

Well, why don't one of you start another thread, perhaps along the lines of Utopia - why it does or doesn't work? This one is supposedly about abortion unless my memory fails me. :p