'Moorish revival' in southern Spain

[Loki]

'Moorish revival' in southern Spain (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10654650)

For hundreds of years, North African Muslims ruled southern Spain. Now some of their descendants are contributing to a "Moorish revival" that is regenerating parts of Andalucia, says the BBC's Sylvia Smith.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48450000/jpg/_48450225_48428673.jpg

Granada's Calderia Nueva resembles a North African souk

Sitting in Abdul Hedi Benattia's tea shop you forget for a moment where you are.

The sound of sweet mint tea being poured into tiny glasses, the murmur of Arabic in the background, and piles of almond cornes de gazelle, served to customers sitting on low sofas, all suggest Morocco or Tunisia.

But step outside the shop and walk a few metres downhill and you are in Granada, Spain.

This teteria, or tea shop, is just one of dozens that festoon the historic area and have come to symbolise a significant change in the culture and economics of an important part of the city.

It was the opening of a tea shop alongside the city's first neighbourhood mosque that ignited the North African renaissance in Granada, according to Said Ekhlouf from Tetouan in northern Morocco.

He and his fellow shop owners took over empty properties, breathing fresh life into a previously run-down area.

"Before we set up shop, few people dared walk down this street, especially in the evening," he explains.

"Everything was boarded up and the only people you'd meet were junkies and prostitutes. But we have turned this street into one of the most popular."

Modern culture

The transformation is eye-catching. Dozens of brightly coloured, open-fronted stalls sell all kinds of Moroccan and Tunisian handicrafts, and the only music you will hear is Arabic, interspersed with the call to prayer.

Taking advantage of low property prices, the first arrivals in the 1980s colonised the Calderia Nueva and began, unwittingly, to introduce a modern version of Islamic Andalucian culture.

Abdul Hedi Benattia, who is a Tunisian historian as well as owning a restaurant and tea shop, claims that Islam as practised in Granada is very close to the original tolerant religion that spread across North Africa and through most of the Iberian peninsula from the 7th Century until the 14th Century.

"We accept our Christian neighbours and respect their traditions," he says. "We didn't set out specifically to recreate peaceful co-existence, but at times you can't help but reflect that this is exactly what has happened".

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48450000/jpg/_48450224_48420664.jpg

Melanie Saldanha and Rupal Lad love the atmosphere - and the shopping

An occasional imam in the neighbourhood mosque, Abdul Hedi meets many of the thousands of European Muslims who come on holiday to enjoy not only the Alhambra, one of Spain's most famous landmarks, but the large, new mosque built in 2002 with funding from the Emirate of Sharjah.

Overlooking the Alhambra - the palace complex built by the Muslim rulers of southern Spain in the 14th Century - this impressive mosque is at the heart of the 15,000-strong Muslim community which has made Granada its home.

Twenty years ago there were a mere 2,000 Muslims in the city - and most of them were Spanish converts.

Some of the more conservative native Spaniards demonstrate an uncompromising attitude to their neighbours.

"We defeated the Moors and sent them packing a long time ago," says Dolores Ramirez, an office cleaner.

"We don't mind them being here, so long as they behave themselves. But they are not in charge. This is a Spanish town."

Not that the North Africans seem to want to be in charge. They are content to see their businesses grow and to demonstrate that the Muslim population is a steadying and unifying force.

'Unique atmosphere'

Abdul Hedi admits that he uses the Andalucian style when decorating. "We have our tables and chairs made up in North Africa and we are keen to be seen as part of a continuing historical line of Muslims who never really left Spain."

The rise in property prices has been steep in the historical area, thanks to tasteful renovations, and some of the local Spaniards resent not being able to afford to buy.

But many others admit that the improvement is startling, and that they also benefit from increased visitor numbers.

"The Alhambra is the most popular visitor attraction in Spain," says Laila, a local Spanish convert who is married to a property manager from Tangier.

"But that has a lot to do with the same unique atmosphere lingering in the streets around here. It's as if that historical period is still alive and well."

British-Indian tourists Rupal Lad and Melanie Saldanha say they find the Arabic culture and colours alluring - and "love the shopping".

"We've made a couple of friends who work in one of the shops here and they were kind enough to ask us to join them for a drink yesterday and it was just very nice, relaxed. We felt completely in good hands," Ms Saldanha says.

And for the locals, as well as the tourists, some of the practical advantages of having a Muslim community on your doorstep are felt particularly strongly on a Sunday morning.

After the excesses of Saturday night, the Calderia Nueva is full of young Spaniards sipping mint tea.

Among them is Jose Martinez, a university student.

"North African culture is really cool and we are simply accepted here. There are no questions asked and you can just chill out," he says.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48428000/jpg/_48428670_48428671.jpg

[Loki]

... Islam as practised in Granada is very close to the original tolerant religion that spread across North Africa and through most of the Iberian peninsula from the 7th Century until the 14th Century.


I wonder if the guy who said that was actually serious? :rolleyes2:

[Ibericus]

This is the fuckin multiculturalist propaganda by the leftist goverment. The moors didn't have any impact on southern Spain , it's has all been exalted by traitors. Now, it's time again, and we'll kick out all this scum later or soon...

[RoyBatty]

I suspect he was being serious.

Depending on location and time / date Islam, Christianity and Judaism co-existed without much problems. Imo the religions themselves aren't necessarily at fault or at the root of friction and tensions.

Imo problems more often arise when corrupt individuals start perverting the respective teachings and stoke up trouble for personal gain.

[Ibericus]

I suspect he was being serious.

Depending on location and time / date Islam, Christianity and Judaism co-existed without much problems. Imo the religions themselves aren't necessarily at fault or at the root of friction and tensions.

Imo problems more often arise when corrupt individuals start perverting the respective teachings and stoke up trouble for personal gain.
That's wrong. They did never coexist in pace. There were always fights and friction. Don't believe in the do-gooder liberals. Read the book "The Myth of Al-Andalus"

[RoyBatty]

I dunno about particular conditions in Spain.

I was speaking in more general terms. Cases vary depending on the part of the world, dates etc. Religious "tolerance" isn't an impossible, unachievable condition but like I said, it depends.......

[Osweo]

For hundreds of years, North African Muslims ruled southern Spain. Now some of their descendants are contributing to a "Moorish revival" that is regenerating parts of Andalucia, says the BBC's Sylvia Smith
You'd think immigrants never did anything else. Fucking BBC... :rolleyes2:

He and his fellow shop owners took over empty properties, breathing fresh life into a previously run-down area.
God bless em... :rolleyes2:
If only some real effort were put into figuring out WHY these muslims are better businessmen, and realising that they abuse the system for all they're worth, fiddling the books with immunity and shifting money around through all sorts of informal channels in a way that would get natives sent to prison...

The transformation is eye-catching. Dozens of brightly coloured, open-fronted stalls sell all kinds of Moroccan and Tunisian handicrafts, and the only music you will hear is Arabic, interspersed with the call to prayer.
Gaudy tat, cheap rubbish, antisocial racket. Yep, the Moors are back.

"We defeated the Moors and sent them packing a long time ago," says Dolores Ramirez, an office cleaner.
:thumb001:

They are content to see their businesses grow and to demonstrate that the Muslim population is a steadying and unifying force.
THe gall of these journos... THey 'unify' what and how!??! :rolleyes:

Abdul Hedi admits that he uses the Andalucian style when decorating. "We have our tables and chairs made up in North Africa
So in fact, there's NOTHING local here. Just imported culture. There was a Spain and there was a Maghreb. Hooray, in future there'll just be TWO Maghrebs... Diversity!
(We will overlook the fact that this is the Kingdom of Granada, and not Andalucia strictly speaking ;))

British-Indian tourists Rupal Lad and Melanie Saldanha say they find the Arabic culture and colours alluring - and "love the shopping".
Great, they can fuck off to Arabia once we decide to get rid of em. :)

Among them is Jose Martinez, a university student.

"North African culture is really cool and we are simply accepted here. There are no questions asked and you can just chill out," he says.
Wow, what a privilege! To be accepted in your own bleeding country... Let's see how long before this all turns ugly.

[Comte Arnau]

A period of religious tolerance was it not, true. There was coexistence, but full of as many tensions as there are nowadays in many places of the world.

But the impact on southern Spain can't be denied. It shouldn't be exaggerated as some like to do, but it can't be denied. If there's one place in Iberia where they really were for hundreds of years, that was the South.

[antonio]

I must confess I feel a strange (and maybe insane cause is not entirely painful) sensation that could be called "ancestral or collective or historical memory" (maybe I should read Jung) when I see Moors (especially bearing chilabas or long bears) tumbling down our streets. What I suffer more is the melting-pot, all races mixed up, ones traffiquing drugs, others as shitty merchants, others disturbing with awful alien musics from hell, others stealing and treating with disrespect our elders, etc...this is what really got into my nerves.

Ps. One day at my local hipermarket I saw a tall Moorish woman with a full-bodied pinkish tunic and Arab shoes really classy and exotical...Mediterranean race, of course! :D

[Osweo]

A period of religious tolerance was it not, true. There was coexistence, but full of as many tensions as there are nowadays in many places of the world.
Two absolute, mutually exclusive 'Truths' in one place = trouble.

But the impact on southern Spain can't be denied. It shouldn't be exaggerated as some like to do, but it can't be denied. If there's one place in Iberia where they really were for hundreds of years, that was the South.
Any examples of the impact?

Castles, palaces... I know that. Some vocabulary. But is there much else, really? Does it show in traditions or superstitions or what?

[Loki]

If there's one place in Iberia where they really were for hundreds of years, that was the South.

Well ... so have the Goths and the Vandals (and the former left a far greater and lasting impact on Spain than the Muslims). And yet the BBC and leftist govt's won't start hailing Spain's Germanic past ...

[Ibericus]

Any examples of the impact?

Castles, palaces... I know that. Some vocabulary. But is there much else, really? Does it show in traditions or superstitions or what?
Exactly. There is nothing that we can call 'impact'. Some buildings (that are not in use, only for tourism visits), some vocabulary (8% of Castillian, even tough only a small part are of everyday use), so what's left ??

[antonio]

Other relevant thing Spanish multicultural Left uses to hide is the fact that a significative percentage of Iberian Muslims (at certain areas being majority) were natives converted to the new official religion.

Ps. With their typical phrase: "pero si somos medio moros" / "but if we are half Moors" !

[Loki]

Other relevant thing Spanish multicultural Left uses to hide is the fact that a significative percentage of Iberian Muslims (at certain areas being majority) were natives converted to the new official religion.

You mean, ethnic Spanish people converting to Islam?

[Ibericus]

Well ... so have the Goths and the Vandals (and the former left a far greater and lasting impact on Spain than the Muslims). And yet the BBC and leftist govt's won't start hailing Spain's Germanic past ...
Nor our Celtic past, a vital component of our past and ancestry. Of course it is not interesting and "boring" for the multicultural left

[Ibericus]

You mean, ethnic Spanish people converting to Islam?
Yep. The ethnic moors were a very tiny minority. The muslims were mostly "white spaniards" converted to Islam.

[Guapo]

You mean, ethnic Spanish people converting to Islam?

Thousands upon thousands of Spanish muslims were kicked out just like in the Balkans, which is probably why many Moroccans can pass as European and Turks too for that matter.

[Comte Arnau]

Any examples of the impact?

Castles, palaces... I know that. Some vocabulary. But is there much else, really? Does it show in traditions or superstitions or what?


Exactly. There is nothing that we can call 'impact'. Some buildings (that are not in use, only for tourism visits), some vocabulary (8% of Castillian, even tough only a small part are of everyday use), so what's left ??

A completely new society which invades a land and settles for centuries has a clear impact on the previous society, whether one likes to accept that or not. The impact was certain at the moment. Having an impact doesn't necessarily mean much should be left, because things have been transformed. How can you notice any influence in gastronomy or agriculture, if things have been modified? Obviously, after more than five centuries, the visual impact left will only be appreciated in things like architecture.


Well ... so have the Goths and the Vandals (and the former left a far greater and lasting impact on Spain than the Muslims). And yet the BBC and leftist govt's won't start hailing Spain's Germanic past ...

Sure. I also defend the Goth impact and influence. You only have to see current Spanish names. Such common names like Enrique Rodríguez would be unthinkable otherwise. ;)

[antonio]

You mean, ethnic Spanish people converting to Islam?

Of course, even upper classes: Gotic nobility were fractioned so, any of them, take refugee on North mountains to inmediately start the fight, but there were others, the ones previously allied with Arabs which brought them into Peninsule to fight the others, even shocked with the Arabs assaulting on power, probably had no much problems in converting to the new faith.

A good sample from wikipedia talking about the origins of the rules of the Zaragoza taifa:

The family is said to descend from the Hispano-Roman or Visigothic nobleman named Cassius. According to the 10th century Muwallad historian Ibn al-Qutiyya, Count Cassius converted to Islam in 714 as the mawali (client) of the Umayyads, shortly after the Umayyad conquest of Hispania,[1] as a means to preserve his lands and political power.[citation needed] After his conversion, he is said to have traveled to Damascus to personally swear allegiance to the Umayyad Caliph, Al-Walid I.
Under the Banu Qasi, the region of Upper Ebro (modern districts of Logroño and Southern Navarra) formed a semi-autonomous principality. The tiny Basque emirate was faced by enemies in several directions.

[Osweo]

A completely new society which invades a land and settles for centuries has a clear impact on the previous society, whether one likes to accept that or not. The impact was certain at the moment. Having an impact doesn't necessarily mean much should be left, because things have been transformed. How can you notice any influence in gastronomy or agriculture, if things have been modified? Obviously, after more than five centuries, the visual impact left will only be appreciated in things like architecture.
THis is just generalities, exactly like the BBC article. Of course there was an impact at the time, but I was interested in what remains.

Potentially not much at all, perhaps?
Fanjul is of course worth linking to here, for those who haven't read him... ;)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10577

[Comte Arnau]

THis is just generalities, exactly like the BBC article. Of course there was an impact at the time, but I was interested in what remains.

Potentially not much at all, perhaps?

Well, if what you meant is if southern Spain is mostly inhabited today by Muslim Arabic speakers, then no, no impact at all.

But something must have happened when, even after having been repopulated by people from the North, so many northern Spaniards see southern Spain as a 'different world'. :tongue

[Oinakos Growion]

aah... this reminds me of some alleged "Medieval fairs" celebrated here and there which normally end up like a tale of Ali Baba with thousand of hippies selling leather stuff with weird Arabic and Chinese inscriptions :rolleyes2:
Looks like anything goes in Europe... except our own old traditions.
Pity proper European armors (replicas) are so expensive, because it'd be fun to dress in one for a day - sword included - and show them how funny things could get... :D

[The Khagan]

I suspect he was being serious.

Depending on location and time / date Islam, Christianity and Judaism co-existed without much problems. Imo the religions themselves aren't necessarily at fault or at the root of friction and tensions.

Imo problems more often arise when corrupt individuals start perverting the respective teachings and stoke up trouble for personal gain.

I agree, but I feel that the nature of the dogmas is conducive to that type of intolerance and barbarism. :ohwell:

Yes, a criticism of the very nature that guides us as human, but a faith was/is often the catalyst and means of this type of behavior.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I believe this has only occurred because the descendants of such people have been allowed to resettle Southern Iberia. If that wasn't the case with the post-Franco government, such thing would not be taking place.

[Vanilla]

Well ... so have the Goths and the Vandals (and the former left a far greater and lasting impact on Spain than the Muslims). And yet the BBC and leftist govt's won't start hailing Spain's Germanic past ...

Indeed, but when we think of Spain, we think of Moorish architecture and of Flamenco. It wasn't very friendly of you to forget the huge Gypsy influence on Spanish culture. :)

[Ibericus]

Indeed, but when we think of Spain, we think of Moorish architecture and of Flamenco. It wasn't very friendly of you to forget the huge Gypsy influence on Spanish culture. :)
LOL. You have registred only to tell this shit ? What Huge Gypsy influence on Spanish culture ?? What influence ? The flamenco is not spanish culture, it's gypsy culture and before the 20th no spaniard knew about it, only a group of marginalized gypsyes in Andalucia. And nobody listens to flamenco in Spain only the tourists. And please the moorish buildings can be counted with the fingers. By the way, part of the architecture of moors was copied from the Visigoths.

[Groenewolf]

That's wrong. They did never coexist in pace. There were always fights and friction. Don't believe in the do-gooder liberals. Read the book "The Myth of Al-Andalus"

To badly I can not find this book on Amazon. Can you tell where this might be found?

[Ibericus]

To badly I can not find this book on Amazon. Can you tell where this might be found?
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10577

[antonio]

Well, if what you meant is if southern Spain is mostly inhabited today by Muslim Arabic speakers, then no, no impact at all.

But something must have happened when, even after having been repopulated by people from the North, so many northern Spaniards see southern Spain as a 'different world'. :tongue

Well, it's like coming into Far West from Germany or Ireland. The melting-pot, even if settlements (at first instance) were probably composed by people from the same region, it's not the same because they've symbolic/magic/telluric attachments to different elements on the original countryside? Another important things were traditions, how to maintain traditions most of them attached to several different physical/telurical elements? So, there it came f.e. the Church to fill the void with Religion manifestations, probably more ortodox that original ones more syncretically paganized. Or folklore...Even today it's hard to maintain old traditions on a new land, go figure to that completelly illiterated people, just wanting to get the everydays bread.

[antonio]

LOL. You have registred only to tell this shit ? What Huge Gypsy influence on Spanish culture ?? What influence ? The flamenco is not spanish culture, it's gypsy culture and before the 20th no spaniard knew about it, only a group of marginalized gypsyes in Andalucia. And nobody listens to flamenco in Spain only the tourists. And please the moorish buildings can be counted with the fingers. By the way, part of the architecture of moors was copied from the Visigoths.

This is a undebatable true. Flamenco had been gaining territory from their original domain on concrete parts of SouthernSpain most marginal and sordid contexts during last two centuries at light speed. Probably for different causes along all that time. Anycase, Flamenco have some of its controversial roots on NorthernSpain Folklore the same way Church European music is related to Gospell, Blues, Soul, that is, a unidirectional way...at least till the queer experiments of current days.

[antonio]

Potentially not much at all, perhaps?


You can bet on it. Social engeneering is a relatively modern discipline. At that times, everything was OK while your subdits pay you the due tributes. :thumb001:

[Oinakos Growion]

The flamenco is not spanish culture, it's gypsy culture and before the 20th no spaniard knew about it
Because it didn't exist :) Well, flamenco as it is understood today appears around 19thC.
I still don't get why everybody thinks it's some kind of "ancestral" music when it is in fact something relatively new. It actually took the gypsies a good while to mix their own music with some other music they heard from Moroccans to come up with flamenco.


And nobody listens to flamenco in Spain only the tourists
And the snobs. It's like jazz: secretly hated but you have to say you like it :D
And if you are part of the "beautiful people" (or want to be) you even have to attend shows and smile on camera (like businessmen playing golf even if they hate it too).

"Rumbita", flamenco, "40 Latinos"... god... I could puke...

[Comte Arnau]

LOL. You have registred only to tell this shit ? What Huge Gypsy influence on Spanish culture ?? What influence ? The flamenco is not spanish culture, it's gypsy culture and before the 20th no spaniard knew about it, only a group of marginalized gypsyes in Andalucia.

Whether you like it or not, Spaniards are known internationally because of the Gypsies. You can thank all those French and British writers who travelled to Spain in the Romantic period, when the exotism of Gypsies was in fashion. I think it's funny that Spain is known internationally by a dance/music which is everything but Iberian. :D

[Ibericus]

Whether you like it or not, Spaniards are known internationally because of the Gypsies. You can thank all those French and British writers who travelled to Spain in the Romantic period, when the exotism of Gypsies was in fashion. I think it's funny that Spain is known internationally by a dance/music which is everything but Iberian. :D
I know, and I hate it, because it's not our culture and because 80 years ago it was not even known in the whole Spain, but some stupid politicians started promoting this shit (until then marginalized unkown gypsy culture) as our own, to make our culture look exotic and attract tourists (aka idiot ignorant europeans):D

[Oinakos Growion]

Whether you like it or not, Spaniards are known internationally because of the Gypsies. You can thank all those French and British writers who travelled to Spain in the Romantic period, when the exotism of Gypsies was in fashion
And Fraga (Minister for Tourism) in the 1960s :rolleyes2: The current views of Spain (sol/playa/toreto/paella/flamenco) were exported, exploited and shaped back then. If anything that policy enhanced some of the previous clichés.
There are ways to undo that, but apparently the establishment is quite happy with the current situation.

[Comte Arnau]

And Fraga (Minister for Tourism) in the 1960s :rolleyes2: The current views of Spain (sol/playa/toreto/paella/flamenco) were exported, exploited and shaped back then. If anything that policy enhanced some of the previous clichés.

Sure, specially the sun and beach thing. Although I've found more than one tourist knowing there's a so-called Green Spain too, maybe things are changing.

But I was rather referring to those clichés settled on Gypsy ground, which even affect the stereotype of the Spaniard being darker than their European counterparts. George Borrow and the duet Mérimée + Bizet had a great impact in Europe at the time, to the point that this vision persists in every picture or doll made of what a Spanish woman looks like... or must look like. :p

http://www.2artgallery.com/gallery/images/Spanish-Woman-in-a-Red-Shawl-1907.jpg

http://www.flamencoexport.com/imgx/productos/munecas/302.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Bo3KvZFwRJU/SnXHQTvFAzI/AAAAAAAAAJg/lY-1j5Z2mPY/s400/Claudia+Moro,+Miss+Spain+Universe+2008.jpg

^ Btw, nothing more ridiculous than seeing a Basque or a Galician girl dressed like that at an international pageant. :D

[Ibericus]

Sure, specially the sun and beach thing. Although I've found more than one tourist knowing there's a so-called Green Spain too, maybe things are changing.

But I was rather referring to those clichés settled on Gypsy ground, which even affect the stereotype of the Spaniard being darker than their European counterparts. George Borrow and the duet Mérimée + Bizet had a great impact in Europe at the time, to the point that this vision persists in every picture or doll made of what a Spanish woman looks like... or must look like. :p

http://www.2artgallery.com/gallery/images/Spanish-Woman-in-a-Red-Shawl-1907.jpg

http://www.flamencoexport.com/imgx/productos/munecas/302.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Bo3KvZFwRJU/SnXHQTvFAzI/AAAAAAAAAJg/lY-1j5Z2mPY/s400/Claudia+Moro,+Miss+Spain+Universe+2008.jpg

^ Btw, nothing more ridiculous than seeing a Basque or a Galician girl dressed like that at an international pageant. :D
:puke::puke:

[Jack B]

Check out this poster for a phone company in Las Vegas which attempts to represent Spain.

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp297/gwensharp/Soc%20Images/-1-17.jpg

[Ibericus]

Check out this poster for a phone company in Las Vegas which attempts to represent Spain.

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp297/gwensharp/Soc%20Images/-1-17.jpg
Yep, they have mistaken Mexico for Spain, we are used to it. Americans are just....being americans. The guy with the phone could perfectly pass for a spaniard tho, not the people in background. Ouch.

[Falkata]

Indeed, but when we think of Spain, we think of Moorish architecture and of Flamenco. It wasn't very friendly of you to forget the huge Gypsy influence on Spanish culture. :)

Spain is much more than Andalusia and Andalusia is much more than Moorish architecture and flamenco.
After 5 centuries in Iberia, gypsies still live in their own guettos appart from the native population with their own culture and laws. They are a nation inside other nation, as in Romania or in any other european country with a significant gypsy population.

[Óttar]

But is there much else, really? Does it show in traditions or superstitions or what?
iOjala!

[Osweo]

iOjala!

One word. ;)

It's not a perfect analogy, but I'll state it anyway; My mother says 'Schweinhund!' sometimes as a swearword. :p She heard it on lots of War films when she was young. Copying a few phrases here and there isn't the deeper stuff I was after, really. I use a few Russian swearwords too, indeed.

[Comte Arnau]

Spain is much more than Andalusia and Andalusia is much more than Moorish architecture and flamenco.
After 5 centuries in Iberia, gypsies still live in their own guettos appart from the native population with their own culture and laws. They are a nation inside other nation, as in Romania or in any other european country with a significant gypsy population.

Well, Moorish architecture is such a loose term that you can include important buildings outside Andalusia. I'm thinking now of Aragon, with the Alfajeria (Parliament of Aragon) or the impressive Mudejar style in Teruel.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Aljafer%C3%ADa2.JPG/240px-Aljafer%C3%ADa2.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5qRyi5aWBqI/SCGyZn1Ic7I/AAAAAAAAAJI/VQSAoQygCDs/s400/Teruel%2Bmudejar.jpg

As for Gypsies, not all of them live in ghettos any more, and Iberian Gypsies are clearly more integrated than Gypsy newcomers from Romania. Yet it is true that they are still an extremely inclusive group, as they consider apayaos even those who have only partially integrated in society. What happens is that we notice more those who have not integrated at all.

[Oinakos Growion]

Well, Moorish architecture is such a loose term that you can include important buildings outside Andalusia. I'm thinking now of Aragon, with the Alfajeria (Parliament of Aragon) or the impressive Mudejar style in Teruel
Yep. Mainly because some of those buildings started to be build by the Moors but were finished up by Christians, in other words, the Moors didn't even have time to finish them.

[Amapola]

Whether you like it or not, Spaniards are known internationally because of the Gypsies. You can thank all those French and British writers who travelled to Spain in the Romantic period, when the exotism of Gypsies was in fashion. I think it's funny that Spain is known internationally by a dance/music which is everything but Iberian. :D


I know, and I hate it, because it's not our culture and because 80 years ago it was not even known in the whole Spain, but some stupid politicians started promoting this shit (until then marginalized unkown gypsy culture) as our own, to make our culture look exotic and attract tourists (aka idiot ignorant europeans):D


And Fraga (Minister for Tourism) in the 1960s :rolleyes2: The current views of Spain (sol/playa/toreto/paella/flamenco) were exported, exploited and shaped back then. If anything that policy enhanced some of the previous clichés.
There are ways to undo that, but apparently the establishment is quite happy with the current situation.

The most part of our alive folklore develops and comes to be between 1750 and 1850, including some special variants like “cante grande” that was not popular back then but it was only popular for a few. There is not a single Arabian country where anything similar to flamenco is sung –let alone danced. But is it gypsy? Why do the Balkanic gypsies not sing or dance anything similar, or do the gypsies of the European North not sing or dance anything at all?

The first flamenco samples start at the end of XVIII century (Cádiz, Jérez, los Puertos). The geographic location associated to migrations has been determining for the evolution and consolidation of Andalusian singing, flamenco or not. Actually, in the Alpujarras we find from Christian Renaissance songs: Bailes de ánimas (souls’ dancing), Rosario de la Aurora to Hispano-american influences imported by Spaniard who returned to Spain having made his fortune in Hispano- America but… what about the European connections? Mazurkas, polkas, waltzes… Let’s not forget certainly songs of Andalusian flamenco origin or working songs like (muleteer or mule driver’s songs) or Spanish oral traditional poetry (romances, popular folk songs, poems) as well as oral narrative (legends, jokes, tales).

If Andalusia has turned into a paradigmatic symbol of everything Spanish by coining of stereotypes, likewise flamenco has come to represent the Andalusian singing par excellence: one part has taken up the whole room helped by a certain tendency for simplification (easy, commercial and unstoppable).

So flamenco (not called like that then ) appeared in 1780 in the areas I afore-mentioned which were the cradle of the 80 per cent of their branches (flamenco has numerous branches) and certainly they were all old and pure variants. From that focus irradiated to Seville and then the rest of Andalusia, as an artistic manifestation of a human type whose bravado and daily vital tragedy is perfectly reflected (in the singing, hence all the allusions to hospital, jail, death etc…). This character is heir of the “rogue” of other times – we would call him poor, ostracized, lumpen, etc) and is not exclusive of Andalusia, Spain OR GYPSIES. Circumstances made that singing a product of male divos and therefore, not popular. It was also condemned by the Andalusian working class in the XIX, who regarded the artists as individuals applied to the entertainment of the superior classes. The relative final success in the Andalusian population was due to that adoption of the rich (profitability).

It is not surprising that gypsies, in contact with that underworld of professional rogues and knaves assimilated the singing and dancing that they had at hand with playful expression and later they meant it as a living . Only the Spanish gipsies sing and dance flamenco; it is likely that they have marked with their stamp some of the most genuine genres such as the gypsy seguiriyas or playeras, which are variants of common seguiriyas whose alterations are due to simple needs of music adaptation. Gypsies have stamped Spanish life with their own style. Did they invent flamenco? No but they must have extracted their art from “where there was art”: people with whom they associated, jails, brothels, markets or fields.