Roman Emperors Were All Blonde And Light Eyed? Or More Nordicist Nonsense?

[MagnusAurelius]

Nordicists always equate having light eyes and hair as having "Nordish" ancestry, Nordish is a made up word by delusional Nordicists so they can include more non-Nordic prototypes within their Nordic race and label anyone with blonde hair and light eyes as being "Nordish".

http://marchofthetitans.com/earlson/romanemperors.htm

8 of the 18 Roman Emperors here have light hair, 7 blonde, 1 red head. They claim the sources are from actual Roman sources but are they really? Marchofthetitans is a known Nordic supremacist site. Even if it is true, this does not make them Nordic, all the Roman Emperors had Alpine-Dinaric phenotypes. The nobility has always had more people with light eyes and hair due to inbreeding. It claims Caligula had a "Golden Beard" here but he had brown hair and hazel eyes, I don't think a brown haired person could have a golden blonde beard.

http://www.romanemperors.com/images/caligula/polychromy-head.jpg

Justinian had hazel eyes and black hair, I doubt most Roman Emperors actually had blonde/light hair.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Meister_von_San_Vitale_in_Ravenna.jpg

[Shqipez]

Wasn't Justinian Illyrian or Thracian?

[MagnusAurelius]

Does anyone have knowledge on the sources that site used? Did actual Roman sources really say they had blonde hair?

[Linebacker]

http://i.imgur.com/Yk9A4IF.gif

[XenophobicPrussian]

Did you just say someone had light eyes because of inbreeding?

Okay.. Unless your English is just bad and you meant mixing with light people at some point, not incest, lol.

Point is, brown and light eyes or dark and light hair didn't evolve in the same place, these people got it from somewhere other than where you got your features. Who knows, just like they got their light features from elsewhere, maybe they also got the inherited intelligence from elsewhere as well. Also yes, there are plenty of people with brown hair and blonde facial hair/beards, so that account isn't far-fetched.

Why do you care do much anyway? Go to Sicily or Vaughan and be with your supreme Italians, Nordics aren't threatening their extinction.

[Mortimer]

to me romans were the same people as modern day romans and ethnic latin italians in central italy

[MagnusAurelius]

Did you just say someone had light eyes because of inbreeding?

Okay.. Unless your English is just bad and you meant mixing with light people at some point, not incest, lol.

Point is, brown and light eyes or dark and light hair didn't evolve in the same place, these people got it from somewhere other than where you got your features. Who knows, just like they got their light features from elsewhere, maybe they also got the inherited intelligence from elsewhere as well. Also yes, there are plenty of people with brown hair and blonde facial hair/beards, so that account isn't far-fetched.

Why do you care do much anyway? Go to Sicily or Vaughan and be with your supreme Italians, Nordics aren't threatening their extinction.

I didn't spell anything wrong, I am just trying to find the source of this. You once said you only like to be with other Nordics, you are just some loony racialist because most people don't give a damn about Nordicism and you are not even fully Nordic yourself.

[Nurzat]

Roman Emperors Were All Blonde And Light Eyed?

yes, and also the ancient Greeks. but those regions had an immense immigration/invasion from all around and from West Asia port cities and Levant port cities so you don't see their descendants now in the European Mediterranean, but the descendants of the immigrants/invaders

[MagnusAurelius]

yes, and also the ancient Greeks. but those regions had an immense immigration/invasion from all around and from West Asia port cities and Levant port cities so you don't see their descendants now in the European Mediterranean, but the descendants of the immigrants/invaders

Wrong, 10% of Italy total has light eyes in addition to 40% of the population having light eyes. Even if this is true, not all Roman Emperors had light eyes and hair, most had darker hair.

[Jana]

They were not.

Their ethinc origins were not the same too.

[ЛыSSый]

no. they were brown.

[Sockorer]

It is plausible they were shifted north relative to the Plebs. Given that the proto-Romans came from the North.

Though they definitely weren't Scandinavian.

[Neon Knight]

Even Cleopatra was white:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/books/files/2013/08/elizabeth-taylor-cleopatra-20th-century-fox.jpg

[aksakallicocuk]

Roman statues generally looks mediteriannen,armenoid or dinaric. Never seen a nordic one.

Nordicist are the european version of our superior turanists.

[Shqipez]

It's of course well known that the western media and hollywood have depicted anything historically as white. Same reason why they draw Jesus as Asian in Asia and black in Africa.

[Gooding]

I'd have thought that Roman Emperors would have more or less resembled modern Italians.. very gracile and Mediterranid in appearance. Who would expect Julius Caesar to look like Karl Gustav of Sweden?

[XenophobicPrussian]

I'd have thought that Roman Emperors would have more or less resembled modern Italians.. very gracile and Mediterranid in appearance. Who would expect Julius Caesar to look like Karl Gustav of Sweden?
Historic Nordicism is simply based on Nordic countries are better today, so the best countries back then must've been run by Nordics. It's stupid.

Don't know why any Nordic would want that history anyway, being the first to do it(civilization in this case) isn't a big deal, those civilizations were horrible by today's standard and it's like being proud of Africans(Rift Valley Kenyans, atleast) being the first modern humans.

[Era]

I'd have thought that Roman Emperors would have more or less resembled modern Italians.. very gracile and Mediterranid in appearance. Who would expect Julius Caesar to look like Karl Gustav of Sweden?

lol

[Gooding]

lol

Simply a thought.. mind you, if you were to look at a marble bust of some ancient senator or Caesar, you would encounter their type among the people of modern Italy. It's basic logic.

[Gooding]

Roman statues generally looks mediteriannen,armenoid or dinaric. Never seen a nordic one.

Nordicist are the european version of our superior turanists.

I really don't understand why some Nordicists make quite frankly strange claims that no matter where in the world an advanced culture arises or develops, it must be Nordic. Simple reason dictates that Egyptians will look Egyptian ( largely like other people of MENA), Italic groups will look Italian and Hellenic groups will look Hellenic. Where are Italy and Greece? In the Mediterranean? People in the Mediterranean region have adapted to a largely sunny environment, yes? So, they would be a bit darker than people from regions that don't have quite as much sun? Of course, with invasions and settlements, some people will have different phenotypes from others. After I'm done studying astrophysics, I'm going to move on to genetics.

[Bezprym]

Yes, they were blonde.

According to the legends about the origins of gens Iulia (Ceasar's family, right?), they were descendants of Aeneas. Aeneas was, due to Homer whom we all believe, a son of Aphrodite. And Aphrodite, as a goddess of love and beauty, was blonde. So yes, genes work. They were all blonde. We all believe in myths, legends and fairytales.

Are we looking for the mythical Aryans in Rome now?

[Era]

I love it how blonde equals nordicist :D

[Gooding]

Yes, they were blonde.

According to the legends about the origins of gens Iulia (Ceasar's family, right?), they were descendants of Aeneas. Aeneas was, due to Homer whom we all believe, a son of Aphrodite. And Aphrodite, as a goddess of love and beauty, was blonde. So yes, genes work. They were all blonde. We all believe in myths, legends and fairytales.

Are we looking for the mythical Aryans in Rome now?

Please tell me you're kidding, Olowek.. The Alexandrian Library in Egypt was burned to the ground because people were afraid of the knowledge it contained. I know, I'm a very grim and serious person for the most part, but fairy tales? Can we afford to listen to those?

[Bezprym]

I love it how blonde equals nordicist :D

If it is you on the avatar, then you are probably from Sweden, but you don't know it. :p

Aphrodite was sister of Freya, but not many people knows it.


Please tell me you're kidding, Olowek.. The Alexandrian Library in Egypt was burned to the ground because people were afraid of the knowledge it contained. I know, I'm a very grim and serious person for the most part, but fairy tales? Can we afford to listen to those?

I had a vision :) Roman emperors were blonde = Nordic.
There are no true blondes in other parts of the world. Only Vikings.

Hollywood movies never lie.

[Era]

If it is you on the avatar, then you are probably from Sweden, but you don't know it. :p

Aphrodite was sister of Freya, but not many people knows it.



I had a vision :) Roman emperors were blonde = Nordic.
There are no true blondes in other parts of the world. Only Vikings.Hollywood movies never lie.

Nope not me.

And yes to the bold part :D You can't be a blonde southern euro, you must have a nordic origin. We on the other hand are not claiming the brunettes of the North, lol

[Era]

im dirty-blonde and curly haired, can i into roman emperor now?

You certainly can, you look like one :)

[Balmung]

I'd have thought that Roman Emperors would have more or less resembled modern Italians.. very gracile and Mediterranid in appearance. Who would expect Julius Caesar to look like Karl Gustav of Sweden?

This, the Roman bust all seem to have very distinct phenotypes to those common in Scandinavian nations.

[Bezprym]

And yes to the bold part :D You can't be a blonde southern euro, you must have a nordic origin. We on the other hand are not claiming the brunettes of the North, lol

Yup. And Western/Eastern Slavs should not be blonde either - only Nordics can. Maybe I will shock everyone, but she...

http://images.designntrend.com/data/images/full/47287/katheryn-winnick.jpg?w=780

...is not a real Viking. She's totally Slavic Ukrainian. Deal with it, wannabe_aryans. :p

I love all these "aka conspiracy" theories. Cabaret.

By the way...

http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/01506/SNN1203Z---532_1506967a.jpg

Must be Scandinavian :) Dyed hair are a detail.

[Proctor]

Damn, I wish I could look like a Roman emperor. Too bad my hair is nearly black.

[Proctor]

This, the Roman bust all seem to have very distinct phenotypes to those common in Scandinavian nations.

The skull shape and features of mediterraneans (the phenotypes, not all meds) are very similar to the skull shape and features of nordids. Meds are essentially just hairy dark nordids.

[Era]

This, the Roman bust all seem to have very distinct phenotypes to those common in Scandinavian nations.

Julius Cesar looks like Karl Gustav? Really?
http://www.romanobritain.org/Photos/Julius-Caesar-bust.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Carl_XVI_Gustaf_of_Sweden_Senate_of_Poland.JPG

[Balmung]

Julius Cesar looks like Karl Gustav? Really?

Read Gooding's post again I was agreeing with him. He said the opposite.


The skull shape and features of mediterraneans (the phenotypes, not all meds) are very similar to the skull shape and features of nordids. Meds are essentially just hairy dark nordids.

Can't tell if sarcastic or not.

[Proctor]

Can't tell if sarcastic or not.

There was a whole thread on it:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?95264-Nordids-Depigmented-Meds

[Peter Nirsch]

Roman empire was a multi-cultural empire, most emperors, according to statues, looked like dinaro-meds and alpinid-med. Thet just looked like italians!!!!!!!!! And everyone knows some emperors came even from Africa! An example is Septimius Severus who was born in Lybia, according someone he was black.

[Gooding]

This, the Roman bust all seem to have very distinct phenotypes to those common in Scandinavian nations.

Let me answer my own question: nobody would expect Julius Caesar to look like Karl Gustav of Sweden. :lol: by the way, Balmung. Sarcasm is a very subtle art.. I bow to your mastery of it. :thumb001:

[Era]

Let me answer my own question: nobody would expect Julius Caesar to look like Karl Gustav of Sweden. :lol: by the way, Balmung. Sarcasm is a very subtle art.. I bow to your mastery of it. :thumb001:

oh wow, sarcasm also when you say today Italians looks gracile mediterranid. Look at the two guys you compared, who looks gracile to you?

[Proctor]

oh wow, sarcasm also when you say today Italians looks gracile mediterranid. Look at the two guys you compared, who looks gracile to you?

Caesar looked like an alpha DOM, noble as fk.

[Hevo]

im dirty-blonde and curly haired, can i into roman emperor now?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=13609&dateline=1434239582

[RandoBloom]

Here are the description and sources on the look of the emperors:

http://i.imgur.com/MJeRMTJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/V2hMqpb.png

It is obvious that Greeks and Romans became dark due to outside influence, rather than being such forever.

[Proctor]

Here are the description and sources on the look of the emperors:

It is obvious that Greeks and Romans became dark due to outside influence, rather than being such forever.

Do we have any genetic data on the Romans? Now THAT would be interesting to see.

[Journeyman26]

Here are the description and sources on the look of the emperors:

It is obvious that Greeks and Romans became dark due to outside influence, rather than being such forever.

I almost took your table seriously until you added "Greeks" to your sweeping verdict about two nations based on emperors; despite the fact that this thread is about Romans. You are a troll. Enjoy Bosnia.

[RandoBloom]

Do we have any genetic data on the Romans? Now THAT would be interesting to see.

When genes were interesting people didnt have the technology. Now that we have technology, researching genetic to determine racial/ethnic compossition is frowned upon.

[Balmung]

I almost took your table seriously until you added "Greeks" to your sweeping verdict about two nations based on emperors; despite the fact that this thread is about Romans. You are a troll. Enjoy Bosnia.

I couldn't find a source for the table.

[RandoBloom]

I almost took your table seriously until you added "Greeks" to your sweeping verdict about two nations based on emperors; despite the fact that this thread is about Romans. You are a troll. Enjoy Bosnia.

Of course I included Greeks since the Greeks are the fresher example on mixing and the change of people from one into another
You have sources written there, you are free to check it out

[RandoBloom]

I couldn't find a source for the table.

The sources are written on the table in the sources cathegory

[Proctor]

When genes were interesting people didnt have the technology. Now that we have technology, researching genetic to determine racial/ethnic compossition is frowned upon.

Hmm, very interesting. On the topic of Rome, I know that some Illyrians fought for Rome, what did they look like? Were they light as well? Do their modern day descendants look like they did?

[RandoBloom]

Hmm, very interesting. On the topic of Rome, I know that some Illyrians fought for Rome, what did they look like? Were they light as well? Do their modern day descendants look like they did?

Illyrians were regarded as bloodthirsty, unpredictable, turbulent, and warlike by Greeks and Romans.[33] They were seen as savages on the edge of their world.[34][35] Polybius (3rd century BC) wrote: "the Romans had freed the Greeks from the enemies of all mankind".[36] According to the Romans, the Illyrians were tall and well-built.[37] Herodianus writes that "Pannonians are tall and strong always ready for a fight and to face danger but slow witted".[38] Livy wrote:

"...the coasts of Italy destitute of harbours, and, on the right, the Illyrians, Liburnians, and Istrians, nations of savages, and noted in general for piracy, he passed on to the coasts of the Venetians"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Bato-1.jpg

Hair and skin werent desribed, afaik

[Journeyman26]

Of course I included Greeks since the Greeks are the fresher example on mixing and the change of people from one into another
You have sources written there, you are free to check it out

Every day with you people. You are trying to extrapolate the physical characteristics of an entire people based on ancient reports of an Emperors appearance. That is like me drawing that all Austrians have inbred characteristics based on the Hapsburg's appearance. As for the Greeks, I don't know why you are so invested in trying to bring them down, but everyone see's through it.

[RandoBloom]

Every day with you people. You are trying to extrapolate the physical characteristics of an entire people based on ancient reports of a Emperors appearances. That is like me drawing that all Austrians have inbred characteristics based on the Hapsburg's appearance. As for the Greeks, I don't know why you are so invested in trying to bring them down, but everyone see's through it.

Except that Roman imperial dynasties tended to change quickly and one would expect that such a rare trait among non-Lombard Italians today, doesnt ocur as often as it did. Its also good because Roman nobility married Roman nobility exclusively. Patricians and all that, while the plebs married whomever they could

I am not trying to bring them down, Romans and Greeks are both ancient people, whose description in antiquity doesnt match the appearance of the people living there today.

[XenophobicPrussian]

If it is you on the avatar, then you are probably from Sweden, but you don't know it. :p

Aphrodite was sister of Freya, but not many people knows it.



I had a vision :) Roman emperors were blonde = Nordic.
There are no true blondes in other parts of the world. Only Vikings.

Hollywood movies never lie.
I know you're being sarcastic, but do you have any proof blonde hair and pitch black hair can evolve in the same place/climate?

I mean, we know Sicily is 95% dark haired, and the mainstream explanation for any person in Sicily without light hair is that person is a descandant of some Norman settlers, which there is proof of. The blonde hair mutation didn't just pop up alongside everyone else who were still getting black hair in the very sunny Sicilian climate. Why would ancient Rome be any different?

[Balmung]

The sources are written on the table in the sources cathegory

Ah found the source of the image.

http://www.theapricity.com/earlson/history/emperors.htm

This doesn't really show much however. The arguement people have made here is that none of the Roman emperors have phenotypes that are partciularly common among present day Scandinavians or Germans for the matter. No tronders, faelids, halstatt nordids. I think if any group of people in northern europe were to be closest to Romans phenotypically it would be the British rather than Nordic countries.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Yup. And Western/Eastern Slavs should not be blonde either - only Nordics can. Maybe I will shock everyone, but she...

http://images.designntrend.com/data/images/full/47287/katheryn-winnick.jpg?w=780

...is not a real Viking. She's totally Slavic Ukrainian. Deal with it, wannabe_aryans. :p

I love all these "aka conspiracy" theories. Cabaret.

By the way...

http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/01506/SNN1203Z---532_1506967a.jpg

Must be Scandinavian :) Dyed hair are a detail.
Slavs are a northern population though, and northern Slav populations have a majority of light/hair eyes unlike Italians.. they evolved in the same climate as Scandinavians/Nordics, while Italians didn't, they evolved in a southern, sunny, warm climate where the blonde mutation didn't happen(some people theorize blonde people first evolved in Lithuania). Two seperate unmixed blonde populations like the Netherlands and Belarus is not weird because they're both in the same northern climate. Two seperate unmixed blonde populations in the Netherlands and then in central Italy is weird and extremely unlikely. Any blonde hair/light eyes in Italy came from foreign admixture or a common, -northern- ancestor.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Ah found the source of the image.

http://www.theapricity.com/earlson/history/emperors.htm

This doesn't really show much however. The arguement people have made here is that none of the Roman emperors have phenotypes that are partciularly common among present day Scandinavians or Germans for the matter. No tronders, faelids, halstatt nordids. I think if any group of people in northern europe were to be closest to Romans phenotypically it would be the British rather than Nordic countries.
Why are you assuming skull shape is more important than hair/eye colour? No one says they were pure Nordics/Nordids, they're saying they were mixed.

Also, Alpinid and light Dinarids(aka Norics/Norids, like da Vinci was) which most of the Emperors seem to be, are most common in central Europe, northern Italy, Austria, Bavaria, France, even Croatia, etc, not Italy.

[RandoBloom]

Ah found the source of the image.

http://www.theapricity.com/earlson/history/emperors.htm

This doesn't really show much however. The arguement people have made here is that none of the Roman emperors have phenotypes that are partciularly common among present day Scandinavians or Germans for the matter. No tronders, faelids, halstatt nordids. I think if any group of people in northern europe were to be closest to Romans phenotypically it would be the British rather than Nordic countries.

I never claimed and I never thought that Romans were Nordic people. I think they had their own phenotype, but blond hair.

[Journeyman26]

Except that Roman imperial dynasties tended to change quickly and one would expect that such a rare trait among non-Lombard Italians today, doesnt ocur as often as it did. Its also good because Roman nobility married Roman nobility exclusively. Patricians and all that, while the plebs married whomever they could

I am not trying to bring them down, Romans and Greeks are both ancient people, whose description in antiquity doesnt match the appearance of the people living there today.

You assert that the Lombards brought more light eyed alleles into Italy than were present before. But your initial point states that blue eyes used to be present in higher amounts than they were now. So if the ancient Romans were light featured.. then the Lombards brought more light features into the North of Italy.. and subsequent invasions of N.Italy involved each of the Franks, HRE , Spaniards, and Austrians , why wouldn't Italy be even lighter than they would then? Same could be said of the Greek settlements in the South... because according to you, the Greeks should have all had blonde hair back then? Why then is this trait not very common in Greek founded settlements... even those in Sicily bolstered by Normans.

[Proctor]

Ah found the source of the image.

http://www.theapricity.com/earlson/history/emperors.htm

This doesn't really show much however. The arguement people have made here is that none of the Roman emperors have phenotypes that are partciularly common among present day Scandinavians or Germans for the matter. No tronders, faelids, halstatt nordids. I think if any group of people in northern europe were to be closest to Romans phenotypically it would be the British rather than Nordic countries.

I was gonna say something to the effect of that. Some Roman emperors have struck me as rather British looking. I mean, some modern day Brits do have Roman ancestry mostly around and in Wales.

[RandoBloom]

You assert that the Lombards brought more light eyed alleles into Italy than were present before. But your initial point states that blue eyes used to be present in higher amounts than they were now. So if the ancient Romans were light featured.. then the Lombards brought more light features into the North of Italy.. and subsequent invasions of N.Italy involved each of the Franks, HRE , Spaniards, and Austrians , why wouldn't Italy be even lighter than they would then? Same could be said of the Greek settlements in the South... because according to you, the Greeks should have all had blonde hair back then? Why then is this trait not very common in Greek founded settlements... even those in Sicily bolstered by Normans.

Because subsequent mixing came from the south, not North. While the Lombards are mixed, the mixture was diluted by the time it reached them. The Byzantine period in the south was especialy deadly, since Byzantines practiced population transfers (Move rebellious Syrians to Italy, move rebellious Italians to Anatolia etc...)
I am not claiming all Romans/Greeks had blond hair. I am simply claiming that it was very common.
And why it is not found, I already said, the Byzantine period. The Byzantines ruined the Greeks, and Romans. Normans moved in into what was esentialy a middle eastern place.

[coolstorybro]

Fundamentally, Nordicism comes down to the superior peoples of the north looking at the modern day Greeks, Egyptians, Levantines and (South) Italians and thinking how on earth can these people be so African in their behavior, how can they be so primitive, so corrupt, so lacking in modern science, if they were the decendants of these once great people?

How can the Indians who shit, eat and swim in the same water be the decendants of the Vedic Aryans?

That's why the common thought is that modern Italians/Greeks/Spaniards/Medis are not the same as in Antiquity, otherwise Greece wouldn't be such a complete failure of a city.

As for why there isn't more blonde/blue dna in those countries, we all now that the way of the Nordic people is to assume position as a ruler caste and then intermarry with local nobility and almost full assimilation culturally and linguistically. This is why Vikings become Normans or Vikings become Rus who become Slavs or Goths who become Spanish and so on. Norsemen adapt and that is their great strenght and their downfall. So it's quite possible that as the years go on, the Norse blood becomes more and more diluted, particularly if exposed to virulent African/Jew strains.

[Journeyman26]

Because subsequent mixing came from the south, not North. While the Lombards are mixed, the mixture was diluted by the time it reached them. The Byzantine period in the south was especialy deadly, since Byzantines practiced population transfers (Move rebellious Syrians to Italy, move rebellious Italians to Anatolia etc...)
I am not claiming all Romans/Greeks had blond hair. I am simply claiming that it was very common.
And why it is not found, I already said, the Byzantine period. The Byzantines ruined the Greeks, and Romans. Normans moved in into what was esentialy a middle eastern place.

That seems a bit shaky... in order for these Byzantine "transfers" to fundamentally alter the phenotypic cline of a large and disjointed population there would have needed to be an absolutely massive migration, distributed in a way that the genetic cline would work so well from South to North. Ockhams razor states that among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.. in this case that the original inhabitants of the Italian peninsula had predominantly dark hair/dark eyes like today, and that Lombard ownership of the North increased the naturally higher concentrations of light eyes/hair already present in the North. In order for the population of the whole Italian peninsula (or Greece for that matter) to be completely replaced would require countless assumptions in the amount of genes from invading (or transfered) groups entering the nation.

[RandoBloom]

That seems a bit shaky... in order for these Byzantine "transfers" to fundamentally alter the phenotypic cline of a large and disjointed population there would have needed to be an absolutely massive migration, distributed in a way that the genetic cline would work so well from South to North. Ockhams razor states that among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.. in this case that the original inhabitants of the Italian peninsula had predominantly dark hair/dark eyes like today, and that Lombard ownership of the North increased the naturally higher concentrations of light eyes/hair already present in the North. In order for the population of the whole Italian peninsula (or Greece for that matter) to be completely replaced would require countless assumptions in the amount of genes from invading (or transfered) groups entering the nation.

Again false presumption, since you are assuming the Byzantines moved relatively similar people there, so change wouldnt be that noticeable. Lets use Lesbos islands as example. The Byzantines moved 2000 Cumans, a nomadic tatar like people onto Lesbos island. Thats massive for a single island. The Greek population that was, changed forever due to mixing.


Kantakouzenos reports that at some time during the battles of the
two Andronikoses the young emperor ordered his troops to be gathered
in Didymotoichon. In a few days all the Thracian troops assembled,
except the Cumans. These Cumans were the 2,000 men who came
from Dalmatia and joined Emperor Michael IX (Andronikos II’s son).
Later, on the command of the older emperor, these Cumans were withdrawn
from Thrace by Andronikes Tornikes and Manuel Laskaris and
settled in the islands of Lemnos, Thasos and Lesbos. The precise background
of the emperor’s decision was not known, but presumably the older
emperor had learnt that the Cumans had made a secret agreement with the
chiefs of the Tatars (Skythai) that in the event of a Tatar campaign the
Cumans would join them as allies and leave the country together with
the booty and their families. But this supposition could not be verified
(adds Kantakouzenos). The young emperor was annoyed when he was
notified of the Cumans’ removal to the islands, but hid his indignation
in order to avoid speculation about his plans against the old emperor.16
The removal of the Cumans to the islands, related by Kantakouzenos,
must have taken place between 1322 and October 1327; Bartusis puts it in
1327.17
In sum, in 1312 the 2,000Cuman warriors arrived from Serbia and entered
Byzantium’s service. First they were settled in Thrace, where they formed
a defensive buffer against the Bulgars and Tatars. Later, by 1327, they were
removed to threeGreek islands. Fromthen onwards they disappear fromthe
sources. These 2,000 Cuman warriors, then, arrived as allied troops from
the Serbian king, and after their settlement they became reserve troops who
had strict military obligations.18


Or settlement of 10 000+ Cumans into Anatolia:


The main Byzantine authorities of the age, such as
Georgios Akropolites, Georgios Pachymeres, Nikephoros Gregoras and
Ioannes Kantakouzenos, report an important event. Emperor John III
(Doukas Batatzes) of Nikaia settled a large group of Cumans as stratiotes
in various frontier areas of the empire: in Thrace and Macedonia in the
Balkans, and in the Maiandros valley and Phrygia in Anatolia. Let us take
a closer look at this process of Cuman settlement, unanimously regarded
as of immense importance by all Byzantine historiographers.
According to Gregoras, these Cumans were refugees who fled from the
Tatars. Together with their wives and children, they crossed the Danube on
sacks stuffed with straw. This description of the fugitive Cumans fits the
first immigration wave of 1237, described by Akropolites and Ephraim (see
above, p. 64). A large group of them, numbering at least 10,000 persons,
were roving around in Thessaly when Emperor John Batatzes took some
of them into his service, granting them lands in Thrace and Macedonia,
while others were sent to the Maiandros region and Phrygia.43 This policy
of military settlement was much appreciated by his contemporaries, since
it meant that the old Byzantine system of frontier defence was restored,
especially in the east. In the encomium he addressed to his father, Theodoros
II Laskaris, he praised his father’s deeds in the following words: ‘Having
removed the Scyth [i.e. Cuman] from the west and the western lands, you
led his race to the east as a subject people and, substituting [them] for the
sons of Persians [i.e. the Turks], you have securely fettered their assaults
toward the west.’44 This settlement policy of John Batatzes was regarded by
Pachymeres as the greatest achievement of the Nikaian state.45 Akropolites
also speaks about these events in a positive tone.46

These are radical people and huge numbers. Entire tribes and groups were moved and settled around on a whim.
As I said, large numbers of Syrians and similar were probably moved to Italy, in order to cut them off from and end their rebelliousness and simply altered the local populations looks.
From then on, the mixed local population, trough milenia mixed and changed the rest of Italy, less and less going northwards of course.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Fundamentally, Nordicism comes down to the superior peoples of the north looking at the modern day Greeks, Egyptians, Levantines and (South) Italians and thinking how on earth can these people be so African in their behavior, how can they be so primitive, so corrupt, so lacking in modern science, if they were the decendants of these once great people?

How can the Indians who shit, eat and swim in the same water be the decendants of the Vedic Aryans?

That's why the common thought is that modern Italians/Greeks/Spaniards/Medis are not the same as in Antiquity, otherwise Greece wouldn't be such a complete failure of a city.

As for why there isn't more blonde/blue dna in those countries, we all now that the way of the Nordic people is to assume position as a ruler caste and then intermarry with local nobility and almost full assimilation culturally and linguistically. This is why Vikings become Normans or Vikings become Rus who become Slavs or Goths who become Spanish and so on. Norsemen adapt and that is their great strenght and their downfall. So it's quite possible that as the years go on, the Norse blood becomes more and more diluted, particularly if exposed to virulent African/Jew strains.
I agree about why some people are historic Nordicists, you'd think the people who were the most advanced then would still be the most advanced but that isn't how it works.

What's so great about the Vedic Aryans? They built shitty infrastructure and Indians still build shitty infrastructure for todays standards(but modern Indian infrastructure is better than Vedic, you're acting like Vedic India or ancient Egypt was better than modern India or modern Egypt, they weren't..)

[XenophobicPrussian]

I was gonna say something to the effect of that. Some Roman emperors have struck me as rather British looking. I mean, some modern day Brits do have Roman ancestry mostly around and in Wales.
Brits/Welsh don't have "Roman" ancestry persay, they have neolithic farmer ancestry(who migrated from North Africa, albeit a long time ago), that's why Wales is darker than the rest of the region. Similar people to Romans, yes. That's what people mean when they say Nordic, they don't mean upper class Romans were Swedish, they mean they had more or some northern/WHG ancestry.

[Balmung]

Fundamentally, Nordicism comes down to the superior peoples of the north looking at the modern day Greeks, Egyptians, Levantines and (South) Italians and thinking how on earth can these people be so African in their behavior, how can they be so primitive, so corrupt, so lacking in modern science, if they were the decendants of these once great people?

I think that's going a little far. I don't think any nation in Europe is "african acting". Italy isn't lacking in modern science. They still are quite competitive with other nations in terms of scientific output and Italy has one of the highest IQs in Europe. Britain, Germany, France, USA, China and Italy are all on top when it comes to scientific output and papers published. After the fall of Rome Italy was still quite relevant their influence on art, sciences and classical music of Europe during the Renaissance was unparalleled.

All groups have their day. Italy lasted on top for a very long time, but everyone declines eventually. Look at Mongols in their prime and now look at Mongolia. The French while still a great power are nowhere near the levels they were same with the British. Once upon a time ago my own nation couldn't be challenged and now the Chinese are sneaking up on us. Who bears the crown constantly changes through the years.

[Journeyman26]

Again false presumption, since you are assuming the Byzantines moved relatively similar people there, so change wouldnt be that noticeable. Lets use Lesbos islands as example. The Byzantines moved 2000 Cumans, a nomadic tatar like people onto Lesbos island. Thats massive for a single island. The Greek population that was, changed forever due to mixing.




Or settlement of 10 000+ Cumans into Anatolia:



These are radical people and huge numbers. Entire tribes and groups were moved and settled around on a whim.
As I said, large numbers of Syrians and similar were probably moved to Italy, in order to cut them off from and end their rebelliousness and simply altered the local populations looks.
From then on, the mixed local population, trough milenia mixed and changed the rest of Italy, less and less going northwards of course.

Assuming your numbers are correct... than the precise slow sequence of pairwise matings that would be required to keep the mtDNA and yDNA haplogroups precisely as they are (north-south) cline in Italy while at the same time slowly integrating JUST dark hair and eye alles (because Italians don't plot even close to cumans or syrians in regards to 99% of autosomal alleles) is staggering. Beyond that... the Lombards were in Northern Italy for hundreds of years, bringing thousands and thousands of their soldiers into Italy... that being said, the genetic impact of the Lombards in N.Italy is still relatively small. The same can be said of pretty much every invading group in history (the Romans in western Europe, Lombards in Italy, Normans in Sicily, Turks inthe Balkans (including your Bosnia), Austrians all over Europe; each had a relatively small effect on autosomal makeup of their occupied territories. The type of change you are describing is almost a statistical impossibility.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I think that's going a little far. I don't think any nation in Europe is "african acting". Italy isn't lacking in modern science. They still are quite competitive with other nations in terms of scientific output and Italy has one of the highest IQs in Europe. Britain, Germany, France, USA, China and Italy are all on top when it comes to scientific output and papers published. After the fall of Rome Italy was still quite relevant their influence on art, sciences and classical music of Europe during the Renaissance was unparalleled.

All groups have their day. Italy lasted on top for a very long time, but everyone declines eventually. Look at Mongols in their prime and now look at Mongolia. The French while still a great power are nowhere near the levels they were same with the British. One upon a time ago my own nation couldn't be challenged and now the Chinese are sneaking up on us. Who bears the crown constantly changes through the years.
Just to be clear, that high Italy IQ is in northern Italy.

Also, Mongolia still has a high IQ despite being poor. Although, they didn't have much, if any accomplishments in innovation other than perhaps powdered milk, they used Han Chinese technology(but, they conquered the Han Chinese so they do get credit for that). Their accomplishments were solely in conquest.

[Balmung]

Just to be clear, that high Italy IQ is in northern Italy.

Also, Mongolia still has a high IQ despite being poor. Although, they didn't have much, if any accomplishments in innovation other than perhaps powdered milk, they used Han Chinese technology(but, they conquered the Han Chinese so they do get credit for that). Their accomplishments were solely in conquest.

There's a source for that? All the sources i'm seeing just say Italy generally rather than breaking it down regionally. A great deal of Italian achievements came from the central regions actually.

[RandoBloom]

Assuming your numbers are correct... than the precise slow sequence of pairwise matings that would be required to keep the mtDNA and yDNA haplogroups precisely as they are (north-south) cline in Italy while at the same time slowly integrating JUST dark hair and eye alles (because Italians don't plot even close to cumans or syrians in regards to 99% of autosomal alleles) is staggering. Beyond that... the Lombards were in Northern Italy for hundreds of years, bringing thousands and thousands of their soldiers into Italy... that being said, the genetic impact of the Lombards in N.Italy is still relatively small. The same can be said of pretty much every invading group in history (the Romans in western Europe, Lombards in Italy, Normans in Sicily, Turks inthe Balkans (including your Bosnia), Austrians all over Europe; each had a relatively small effect on autosomal makeup of their occupied territories. The type of change you are describing is almost a statistical impossibility.

The numbers are written as such in the primary documents.

Its not keeping dna as it is, and spreading it. Its simply a case of Area X people are mixed, and mix between each other later
A few men/women from that area, move northwards and marry there, thus changing the local population, albeit very slowly.
The change between Lombards and Sicilians is huge and can be seen with a naked eye. Which is of course result of a low mobility in the middle ages, when it happened. We are not talking about modern Italy, where I can marry a black girl in Milano, raise my child in Palermo and retire in Venice. People in middle ages didnt have that mobility. That is why the change is so geographicaly divided.

[Journeyman26]

The numbers are written as such in the primary documents.

Its not keeping dna as it is, and spreading it. Its simply a case of Area X people are mixed, and mix between each other later
A few men/women from that area, move northwards and marry there, thus changing the local population, albeit very slowly.
The change between Lombards and Sicilians is huge and can be seen with a naked eye. Which is of course result of a low mobility in the middle ages, when it happened. We are not talking about modern Italy, where I can marry a black girl in Milano, raise my child in Palermo and retire in Venice. People in middle ages didnt have that mobility. That is why the change is so geographicaly divided.

You aren't talking about one area X.. you are talking about a cline between area A and B with many area X's in between. If area A is Lombardy, and area B is Sicily, with each city state/region of Italy making up a separate area X in between, assuming immobility.. each area X would have to have the precise amount of foreign influence in succession to make it look like there is a cline between the two regions.. when according to your assertion there isn't and each is genetically distinct. Not only that, but even assuming that happened, which is once again a statistical impossibility, they would have to accomplish this autosomally while same time keeping yDNA and mtDNA at relatively stable levels to keep the illusion of unity. I am not saying that N and S Italians are genetically the same.. I am saying that they never were and the Roman people fell in the center of this cline, with many members from the South of Italy and many from the North (all free born men of the Italian peninsula were considered Roman citizens).

[Shqipez]

What people forget is that in the south of Europe there used to live PRE-IE people first who were actually dark. then came IE people who were light most likely and asimilated those. That's why you have Y-DNA's in the balkans and italy that could be linked to non-IE people. What some of you are doing is really taking these people and saying they arrived later and that IE people were there first. this is just nonsense.

Thracians were described to be red haired. How many Albanians, Romanians, Bulgarians or Greeks do you see red haired? These ancient descriptions are not really accurate, most historians agree Thracians were dark haired. Pannonians were different from South Illyrians. they were north Illyrians. Most busts I have seen of South Illyrians or ancient greeks resemble Albanians or Greeks. Many of those ''North Illyrians'' are now believed to of been venetic or even celtic.

I don't really see how modern Greeks are not the same as the ancient one except for the Slavic settlements that have happened in Greece which has effected the gene pool a bit. Is there any proof of other migrations to these areas that somehow magically swapped the population? There is practically no proof, except for some low conspiracies.

Proto-Greeks and proto-illyrians might of been blond and blue eyed before they moved in from the north, but they people they met there living already and which they asimilated weren't really white. There is enough evidence of PRE-IE people existing.

I don't see how CM are related to Illyrians, greeks or thracians, except for the fact that they were asimilated, seeing as they are people of Europe who preceded the IE people. As far as I know, CM were also dark. Atleast from reconstructions I have seen they were dark.

Having blond and blue eyes doesn't make one nordic either. Many in the south who are light look more Caucasoid or Celtic rather than Nordic.

[Journeyman26]

There's a source for that? All the sources i'm seeing just say Italy generally rather than breaking it down regionally. A great deal of Italian achievements came from the central regions actually.

Indeed... Florence was the artistic, scientific, and cultural center of Italy for most of modern history.

[Shqipez]

Those numbers of Cumans into Anatolia aren't really that big and I don't see how they changed the population. I think Slavs coming into the Balkans changed the population more yet some still believe they are slavicized natives. What a bias opinion. There settled 100,000+ of slavs in the balkans in many different waves. The Sclavenis alone were said to of been 100,000... now how many were the bulgars, proto-serbs and proto-croats? This alone is enough to change the population and not consider yourself illyrian, thracian or ancient macedonian or whatever. there is even more evidence for this than anything else, yet we wanna pick on greeks? XD

[XenophobicPrussian]

There's a source for that? All the sources i'm seeing just say Italy generally rather than breaking it down regionally. A great deal of Italian achievements came from the central regions actually.
It's from a Richard Lynn article. http://speciali.espresso.repubblica.it/carlucci/richard_lynn_north_south_differences_in_iq.pdf

The regional study is from 2006 PISA scores. Yes, PISA scores aren't exactly IQ tests but comparing it to other countries and how wealth correlates with PISA scores in even poorer European areas(for example, NE Slavic countries) than southern Italy it is shown to be pretty accurate and a good predictor for IQ. Scroll down to the chart if you don't wanna read it. Lynn has also debunked any naysayers well.

Here's a map of the 2009 Italian PISA scores by region:

https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/italy-apostate-pisa-scores.png

Also, Italy's IQ is NOT 102. People and even the media keep using Richard Lynn/Tatu Vanhanen's 2002 book even though they kept updating it to make it more accurate(inaccuracies were minor and mostly the same countries were ahead/behind eachother), with their latest update and book being from 2012 which has Italy's IQ at 96.1(nothern regions have around 102 with Venezia-Fruili being the highest at 103)

Here's a semi-accurate map, or look up the results from Lynn/Vanhanen's 2012 book.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1701/europeiq1200.png

[Journeyman26]

It's from a Richard Lynn article.
The regional study is from 2006 PISA scores. Yes, PISA scores aren't exactly IQ tests but comparing it to other countries and how wealth correlates with PISA scores in even poorer European areas(for example, NE Slavic countries) than southern Italy it is shown to be pretty accurate and a good predictor for IQ. Scroll down to the chart if you don't wanna read it. Lynn has also debunked any naysayers well.

Here's a map of the 2009 Italian PISA scores by region:

Also, Italy's IQ is NOT 102. People and even the media keep using Richard Lynn/Tatu Vanhanen's 2002 book even though they kept updating it to make it more accurate(inaccuracies were minor and mostly the same countries were ahead/behind eachother), with their latest update and book being from 2012 which has Italy's IQ at 96.1(nothern regions have around 102 with Venezia-Fruili being the highest at 103)

Here's a semi-accurate map, or look up the results from Lynn/Vanhanen's 2012 book.


Yayy Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna both are at 100 hah

[Bagot]

Indeed... Florence was the artistic, scientific, and cultural center of Italy for most of modern history.

Florentine achievements alone are much more than those of Bosnia and Herzegovina and former Jugoslavia in their whole history.


Why are you assuming skull shape is more important than hair/eye colour? No one says they were pure Nordics/Nordids, they're saying they were mixed.

Also, Alpinid and light Dinarids(aka Norics/Norids, like da Vinci was) which most of the Emperors seem to be, are most common in central Europe, northern Italy, Austria, Bavaria, France, even Croatia, etc, not Italy.

Leonardo Da Vinci was Tuscan, Central Italian, not Northern Italian. Northern Italy is still part of Italy.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Florentine achievements alone are much more than those of Bosnia and Herzegovina and former Jugoslavia in their whole history.



Leonardo Da Vinci was Tuscan, Central Italian, not Northern Italian. Northern Italy is still part of Italy.
Leonardo Da Vinci also had light eyes and light hair.

[Bagot]

Leonardo Da Vinci also had light eyes and light hair.

Not uncommon overthere.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Not uncommon overthere.
Thing is, it's the Sicilian/southern olive skinned Italians that get offended by Italian Nordicism, not light Italians.

I mean, it says it all when Padania/northern Italy(which includes Tuscany) wants to break away from the south.

[Shqipez]

Leonardo Da Vinci also had light eyes and light hair.

He was also gay if that counts.

[Balmung]

Hair and eye color don't determine race. I would like to think that British people with dark hair and dark eyes would still overlap genetically with other British and not southern europeans.


It's from a Richard Lynn article. http://speciali.espresso.repubblica.it/carlucci/richard_lynn_north_south_differences_in_iq.pdf

The regional study is from 2006 PISA scores. Yes, PISA scores aren't exactly IQ tests but comparing it to other countries and how wealth correlates with PISA scores in even poorer European areas(for example, NE Slavic countries) than southern Italy it is shown to be pretty accurate and a good predictor for IQ. Scroll down to the chart if you don't wanna read it. Lynn has also debunked any naysayers well.

Here's a map of the 2009 Italian PISA scores by region:

https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/italy-apostate-pisa-scores.png

Also, Italy's IQ is NOT 102. People and even the media keep using Richard Lynn/Tatu Vanhanen's 2002 book even though they kept updating it to make it more accurate(inaccuracies were minor and mostly the same countries were ahead/behind eachother), with their latest update and book being from 2012 which has Italy's IQ at 96.1(nothern regions have around 102 with Venezia-Fruili being the highest at 103)

Here's a semi-accurate map, or look up the results from Lynn/Vanhanen's 2012 book.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1701/europeiq1200.png


Ah i've seen that before i've also read that his data was not actually based on residents within these regions. He's known in the academic world for manipulating and misrepresenting data.

"Many of the data points in Lynn's book IQ and the Wealth of Nations were not based on residents of the named countries. The datum for Suriname was based on tests given to Surinamese who had emigrated to the Netherlands, and the datum for Ethiopia was based on the IQ scores of a highly selected group that had emigrated to Israel, and, for cultural and historical reasons, was hardly representative of the Ethiopian population. The datum for Mexico was based on a weighted averaging of the results of a study of "Native American and Mestizo children in Southern Mexico" with results of a study of residents of Argentina. The datum that Lynn and Vanhanen used for the lowest IQ estimate, Equatorial Guinea, was taken from a group of children in a home for the developmentally disabled in Spain."

It would be better to have direct access to the data he's using. I don't trust Lynn.

[Bagot]

Thing is, it's the Sicilian/southern olive skinned Italians that get offended by Italian Nordicism, not light Italians.

Well, not all the Sicilian/Southern are olive skinned. If they get offended, it's their problem. But only trolls can think that they are average Italians.


I mean, it says it all when Padania/northern Italy(which includes Tuscany) wants to break away from the south.

This was in the past, not nowadays. Going back to topic, the Romans were not Nordic, they were a mixture of Indo-Europeans and Mediterraneans like the modern Italians, with the former more present in the Roman elites.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Hair and eye color don't determine race. I would like to think that British people with dark hair and dark eyes would still overlap genetically with other British and not southern europeans.




Ah i've seen that before i've also read that his data was not actually based on residents within these regions. He's known in the academic world for manipulating and misrepresenting data.

"Many of the data points in Lynn's book IQ and the Wealth of Nations were not based on residents of the named countries. The datum for Suriname was based on tests given to Surinamese who had emigrated to the Netherlands, and the datum for Ethiopia was based on the IQ scores of a highly selected group that had emigrated to Israel, and, for cultural and historical reasons, was hardly representative of the Ethiopian population. The datum for Mexico was based on a weighted averaging of the results of a study of "Native American and Mestizo children in Southern Mexico" with results of a study of residents of Argentina. The datum that Lynn and Vanhanen used for the lowest IQ estimate, Equatorial Guinea, was taken from a group of children in a home for the developmentally disabled in Spain."

It would be better to have direct access to the data he's using. I don't trust Lynn.
Again, you're referring to his 2002 book when he used any information that was available and these type of errors were in the minority anyway. The few errors don't make the rest of his study irrelevant and don't effect the international trend the study shows. He's addressed all these concerns, debunked a lot of bullshit and also updated his works in later books, the latest one being his 2012 one which doesn't have many inconsistancies and has updated IQs using new and other information, which turned out to be pretty similar to his 2002 findings. Even if the topic is taboo his work is still well respected in academia and by mainstream reviewers.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Well, not all the Sicilian/Southern are olive skinned. If they get offended, it's their problem. But only trolls can think that they are average Italians.



This was in the past, not nowadays. Going back to topic, the Romans were not Nordic, they were a mixture of Indo-Europeans and Mediterraneans like the modern Italians, with the former more present in the Roman elites.
"Indo-European" meaning northern, sharing more Western Hunter Gatherer(aka "Nordic") DNA(where light eyes/hair comes from, or probably something else, maybe ANE/Ancient Northeast Eurasian for Slavs/Finns) than the pre-IE Neolithic farmer Mediterraneans. No one is saying they were the "Nordid" phenotype, you can clearly see from the statues they were not, they're saying they were mixed.

There's still a party called Lega Nord, lol.

[Bagot]

"Indo-European" meaning northern, sharing more Western Hunter Gatherer(aka "Nordic") DNA(where light eyes/hair comes from, or ANE/Ancient Northeast Eurasian for Slavs/Finns) than the pre-IE Neolithic farmer Mediterraneans. No one is saying they were the "Nordid" phenotype, you can clearly see from the statues they were not, they're saying they were mixed.

I agree, but it's an acquired truth that Romans were Indo-European + Med. There was no need to open a thread and to make a list of the emperors with blond hair. :)


There's still a party called Lega Nord, lol.

Lega Nord means North Italy League not Nordic.

[aksakallicocuk]

"Indo-European" meaning northern, sharing more Western Hunter Gatherer(aka "Nordic") DNA(where light eyes/hair comes from, or probably something else, maybe ANE/Ancient Northeast Eurasian for Slavs/Finns) than the pre-IE Neolithic farmer Mediterraneans. No one is saying they were the "Nordid" phenotype, you can clearly see from the statues they were not, they're saying they were mixed.

There's still a party called Lega Nord, lol.

Just take look at Roman statues huh? Also they didn't belonged the same ethnic background.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I agree, but it's an acquired truth that Romans were Indo-European + Med. There was no need to open a thread and to make a list of the emperors with blond hair. :)



Lega Nord means North Italy League not Nordic.
Not according to the OP, he thinks they were pure southern or these light Italians are 100% the same genetically as dark Italians.

He posted this map saying it's proof all Italians are more similar to eachother than other people, while there's a ton of ITs north of the Italian core, lol. Historic Italian Nordicism(again, I am not a historic Nordicism, I'm just pointing it out) simply makes the point(whether they express it well or not is another story) that the upper classes of the Roman Empire were those Northern ITs closer to Germany, not the ITs closer to the Italian core, that's pretty much their argument(and again, I don't agree with it, I don't think there's suffiecient evidence, I don't even know if the sources in the OP's first post are correct, people describing others in ancient writings is iffy anyway), not that they were the Nordid/Scandinavian phenotype. Not to mention, Alpinids/Dinarids/Norics which the OP is claiming as Italian aren't even most common in Italy, especially not in central or south Italy.

http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png

I know, you said Northern Italy independence is irrelevant now. There's still a party called Lega Nord so it is relevant.

[Bagot]

Not according to the OP, he thinks they were pure southern or these light Italians are 100% the same genetically as dark Italians.

He posted this map saying it's proof all Italians are more similar to eachother than other people, while there's a ton of ITs north of the Italian core, lol. Historic Italian Nordicism(again, I am not a historic Nordicism, I'm just pointing it out) simply makes the point(whether they express it well or not is another story) that the upper classes of the Roman Empire were those Northern ITs closer to Germany, not the ITs closer to the Italian core, that's pretty much their argument(and again, I don't agree with it, I don't think there's suffiecient evidence, I don't even know if the sources in the OP's first post are correct, people describing others in ancient writings is iffy anyway), not that they were the Nordid/Scandinavian phenotype. Not to mention, Alpinids/Dinarids/Norics which the OP is claiming as Italian aren't even most common in Italy, especially not in central or south Italy.. http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png


You're having too many tasks all together and comparing ancient with modern people is always complicated. No modern population is exactly the same of his ancient counterpart. This applies for the Italians but also for the Germans, the Austrians, the Croats, the British...

OP has posted two examples, but only Caligula was an ethnic Roman. Historically Romans are more related to Central/Northern Italians than to Southern Italians, but Alpinids and Dinarids are common everywhere in Italy. Romans descended from the Latins, one of the Indo-European tribes that settled in Italy in the 3rd/2nd Millennium BC coming from Central-Eastern Europe but they became "Romans" only many centuries later their arrival.


I know, you said Northern Italy independence is irrelevant now. There's still a party called Lega Nord so it is relevant.

I didn't say that is irrelevant for me but it's irrelevant for them because Lega Nord was more separatist in the past, now is more federalist.

[Gooding]

oh wow, sarcasm also when you say today Italians looks gracile mediterranid. Look at the two guys you compared, who looks gracile to you?

Caesar, obviously. I imagine whether today's Italians are slender or not depends on the Italian. James Gandolfini, for example, was certainly robust, while Mayor Giuliani of New York is of a slender ( gracile) frame. There was no sarcasm in my original post.

[Proctor]

I know you're being sarcastic, but do you have any proof blonde hair and pitch black hair can evolve in the same place/climate?

I might be an example of something like that, my hair is nearly black yet genetically I had a 30% chance (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?158207-Your-23andme-Blonde-Hair-Results-HERC2-KITLG-and-SLC24A4&p=3359228&viewfull=1#post3359228) of being blonde and only a 1% chance of having black hair. Meaning if I had kids with a person with similar genes, 1/3rd of my potential offspring would be blonde and the rest darker like a pack of skittles or some shit. Most of my ancestry is British/Irish. Is this is an example of both hair colors evolving in one place? I could be interpreting what you said completely wrong lmfao, please correct me if I am.

I personally think blonde hair arose because of sexual selection, not because of any environmental pressure. So I don't think it's impossible for black and blonde hair to evolve in the same place.

[Black Wolf]

I really don't understand why some Nordicists make quite frankly strange claims that no matter where in the world an advanced culture arises or develops, it must be Nordic. Simple reason dictates that Egyptians will look Egyptian ( largely like other people of MENA), Italic groups will look Italian and Hellenic groups will look Hellenic. Where are Italy and Greece? In the Mediterranean? People in the Mediterranean region have adapted to a largely sunny environment, yes? So, they would be a bit darker than people from regions that don't have quite as much sun? Of course, with invasions and settlements, some people will have different phenotypes from others. After I'm done studying astrophysics, I'm going to move on to genetics.

I understand why they make strange claims. They make strange claims because they are idiots.

[Gooding]

I understand why they make strange claims. They make strange claims because they are idiots.

I think you've got it in one.

[XenophobicPrussian]

You can't tell me these people and features evolved in the same area, during the same time period(this is mostly directed at the OP).

Typical Italian nose. He's even from southern Italy(although that's irrelevant because one of his recent ancestors could've moved there) Classified as Noric-Alpinid on anthroscape. Noric is also da Vinci's classification.
http://i.imgur.com/25Rtd2z.jpg

http://sport.sky.it/static/contentimages/original/sezioni/sport/rugby/2009/11/11/mirco_bergamasco_lp.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQpLUpHLQNTwx86ppFsnAQOOSB4IB3Av KA0YNk3fDqcDpaw8PkZ

and even this..
http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players/3/2012/324x324/73253.jpg



evolving in the same place as this..

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUzqgdD4IEsMgnqdL1Y8ciT27znoufg UdVZK1zn5eCXMYqd2Yy

http://www.fotogramas.es/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/imagenes/cinefilia/fotomaton/carlos-areces/carlos-areces-6/5671070-1-esl-ES/Carlos-Areces-6_principalGaleriaApaisada.jpg

There's just no way. What, did they all of a sudden get African albanism or did their families stay secluded high up on an snowy Appenine mountain for thousands of years?

They're mixed, not a homogenous Italian/Mediterranean population. The most pure Mediterranean population in the world is Sardinia and they have almost 0 light hair/eyes(clearly meaning any light eyes come from post-Italy migration, because they're Neolithic farmers who didn't mix with any northerners at all.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I might be an example of something like that, my hair is nearly black yet genetically I had a 30% chance (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?158207-Your-23andme-Blonde-Hair-Results-HERC2-KITLG-and-SLC24A4&p=3359228&viewfull=1#post3359228) of being blonde and only a 1% chance of having black hair. Meaning if I had kids with a person with similar genes, 1/3rd of my potential offspring would be blonde and the rest darker like a pack of skittles or some shit. Most of my ancestry is British/Irish. Is this is an example of both hair colors evolving in one place? I could be interpreting what you said completely wrong lmfao, please correct me if I am.

I personally think blonde hair arose because of sexual selection, not because of any environmental pressure. So I don't think it's impossible for black and blonde hair to evolve in the same place.
You completely interpreted what I said wrong. That isn't an example of both blonde and black hair evolving on the British Isles, that's an example of the British/Irish being mixed as fuck.

If you had a 30% chance of getting blonde hair, atleast one of your ancestors, whether it was 100 years ago or 5000 years ago, mixed with a person who looked just like this mofo.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-enpIggml2xg/UccTFnl1orI/AAAAAAAAAlM/1zfbRdvAgEA/s1600/iwan+thomas.jpg

[Mortimer]

I know for sure that julius caesar had black hair and even described as having black eyes but i think they were dark brown because dark brown eyes are sometimes called black, i read it in latin classes. but nowadays oculis ceasaris (ceasars eyes) means grey-blue very light eyes, eventhough caesar had black eyes, i think it is later invention and mistranslation of nordics, just like that jesus was blonde or that chinese paint buddha as a big bellied asian traditionally. im sure romans were the same people as modern day ethnic latin italians. and there are blonde italians nowadays, and there are brunnete nordics, even black haired nordics if italians couldnt have evolved blonde hair along dark hair in the same climate why nordics could have, there are dark haired and light haired people in the same family. nothing strange

[Era]

lol
Don't be surprised if the first guy plots southern than the last ( assuming they are both fully euro). It has nothing to do with coloring just as a dark northern euro will plot similar to a blonde one. Your understanding of genetics is minimal but you are funny how you think you have a point.

The first guy looks very much Albanian by the way you dummie

[XenophobicPrussian]

lol
Don't be surprised if the first guy plots southern than the last ( assuming they are both fully euro). It has nothing to do with coloring just as a dark northern euro will plot similar to a blonde one. Your understanding of genetics is minimal but you are funny how you think you have a point.

The first guy looks very much Albanian by the way you dummie
If he plots southern, that means most of his other genes(that specific child) come from the Mediterranean side, like whether he's lactose intolerant or not, but there's still no question the blonde hair/eyes comes from an outside source, whether he won the genetic lottery or not.

Historic Nordicists(and again, I'm not one) points are if the northern gene for blonde hair can appear in Italians because of previous admixture, the genes for greater intelligence/critical thinking/etc can be from that as well.

[Era]

If he plots southern, that means most of his other genes(that specific child) come from the Mediterranean side, like whether he's lactose intolerant or not, but there's still no question the blonde hair/eyes comes from an outside source, whether he won the genetic lottery or not.

Historic Nordicists(and again, I'm not one) points are if the northern gene for blonde hair can appear in Italians because of previous admixture, the genes for greater intelligence/critical thinking/etc can be from that as well.

Hunter-gatherers were swarthies and had dark hair according to La Brana man. What do you make of that.

[Shqipez]

lol
Don't be surprised if the first guy plots southern than the last ( assuming they are both fully euro). It has nothing to do with coloring just as a dark northern euro will plot similar to a blonde one. Your understanding of genetics is minimal but you are funny how you think you have a point.

The first guy looks very much Albanian by the way you dummie

the first guy looks pretty much like a light Albanian. exactly what I was thinking.

[Shqipez]

You can't tell me these people and features evolved in the same area, during the same time period(this is mostly directed at the OP).

Typical Italian nose. He's even from southern Italy(although that's irrelevant because one of his recent ancestors could've moved there) Classified as Noric-Alpinid on anthroscape. Noric is also da Vinci's classification.
http://i.imgur.com/25Rtd2z.jpg



He kind of resembles Besart Berisha

http://s.weltsport.net/bilder/spieler/gross/23912.jpg

[Bagot]

evolving in the same place as this..

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUzqgdD4IEsMgnqdL1Y8ciT27znoufg UdVZK1zn5eCXMYqd2Yy

http://www.fotogramas.es/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/imagenes/cinefilia/fotomaton/carlos-areces/carlos-areces-6/5671070-1-esl-ES/Carlos-Areces-6_principalGaleriaApaisada.jpg



Well, evolving in the same place, the first is Jason Biggs, the second is Carlos Areces a Spanish comic artist and actor.

[Bagot]

Historic Nordicists(and again, I'm not one) points are if the northern gene for blonde hair can appear in Italians because of previous admixture, the genes for greater intelligence/critical thinking/etc can be from that as well.

And this proves that these Historic Nordicists lack of the genes for greater intelligence/critical thinking...

[XenophobicPrussian]

And this proves that these Historic Nordicists lack of the genes for greater intelligence/critical thinking...
I wouldn't call it crazy to think just because Nordic countries are better today than southern countries, the first ancient southern civilizations had to be run by Nordics or people mixed with Nordics. I mean, given the vast majority, if not all African American intellectuals have some white admixture(not every Afro-American does), it kind of makes sense, but it is still stupid and there isn't enough evidence, so I agree.

Most racists/right-wingers are stupid overall anyway, whether they're Nordicists, or just white nationalists, racists do usually tend to have lower IQs. I wouldn't say racism/right-wing policy is stupid though, just that lower class whites are attracted more to the idealogy because they have more experience with minorities while higher class people are usually in homogenous areas.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Hunter-gatherers were swarthies and had dark hair according to La Brana man. What do you make of that.
That was a Spanish Hunter-gatherer, more north they were all light. That same study also showed Yamnaya were dark.

La Brana was also haplogroup C, a group that pretty much isn't existant anymore, not I1, the main WHG haplogroup.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Well, evolving in the same place, the first is Jason Biggs, the second is Carlos Areces a Spanish comic artist and actor.
Do I need to go find an Italian typical Mediterranid and Alpinid that look just like that?

You get the point.

[Mortimer]

I wouldn't call it crazy to think just because Nordic countries are better today than southern countries, the first ancient southern civilizations had to be run by Nordics or people mixed with Nordics. I mean, given the vast majority, if not all African American intellectuals have some white admixture(not every Afro-American does), it kind of makes sense, but it is still stupid and there isn't enough evidence, so I agree.

Most racists/right-wingers are stupid overall anyway, whether they're Nordicists, or just white nationalists, racists do usually tend to have lower IQs. I wouldn't say racism/right-wing policy is stupid though, just that lower class whites are attracted more to the idealogy because they have more experience with minorities while higher class people are usually in homogenous areas.

not all northern countries are better then southern countries, poland, lithuania, belarus etc. are not better then italy or spain. also italian culture made europe what it is, the pope was always italian, without italians theren wouldnt be vatican, rome, europe etc. and nordics are also mixed with slavs, celts and latins, all europe is mixed. why there are dark nordics? prince of sweden

https://mshilario101.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/prince_carl_philip_of_sweden_2010_hires.jpg

its very stupid i agree and racists are stupid.....

[Bagot]

Do I need to go find an Italian typical Mediterranid and Alpinid that look just like that?

You get the point.

I got the point.

[Bagot]

I wouldn't call it crazy to think just because Nordic countries are better today than southern countries, the first ancient southern civilizations had to be run by Nordics or people mixed with Nordics. I mean, given the vast majority, if not all African American intellectuals have some white admixture(not every Afro-American does), it kind of makes sense, but it is still stupid and there isn't enough evidence, so I agree.

Most racists/right-wingers are stupid overall anyway, whether they're Nordicists, or just white nationalists, racists do usually tend to have lower IQs. I wouldn't say racism/right-wing policy is stupid though, just that lower class whites are attracted more to the idealogy because they have more experience with minorities while higher class people are usually in homogenous areas.

There is something I don't understand about this kind of Nordicism. I think you will agree with me.

If the splendor of civilization such as ancient Rome and ancient Greece is all due to their Nordic elite, why did these Nordic people need to migrate to Southern Europe? Why didn't they founded civilizations so important in Northern Europe in the same historical era?

[Balmung]

Historic Nordicism is simply based on Nordic countries are better today, so the best countries back then must've been run by Nordics. It's stupid.

Don't know why any Nordic would want that history anyway, being the first to do it(civilization in this case) isn't a big deal, those civilizations were horrible by today's standard and it's like being proud of Africans(Rift Valley Kenyans, atleast) being the first modern humans.

Being better is subjective. The quality of life might be better, but if it's really all that great why are people from these countries on here constantly whining about how liberal they are or how the government sucks and how minorities are taking over. I haven't seen a positive thread about Sweden posted here yet, they're all negative. I'm still waiting for just one positive thread about the country, just one that isn't about immigrants. Is that too much to ask? heh. On the contrary the people from the "bad countries" don't seem to be complaining about their countries nearly as much.

On the appeal of people wanting to claim Italian history, people seek to claim such history because Italy like France and also Britain, Greece has one of the richest histories/cultures in Europe in the same way that China does in East Asia or the Levant in the ME. It's not about being first that is appealing, it's that these regions are the beginning of the west and western culture. What would our literature look like today without contributions from Greece and their invention of practically every modern genre. What would classical music be without Italian contribution with Opera, Orchestra, Piano, Violin, contributions to musical notation, Vivaldi's contributions to concerto which later went on to influnece both Beethoven and Mozart directly. Western culture would be unrecognizable if you were to remove either of these groups from history. That is the appeal.

I was serious about the part on Sweden, someone really needs to post a positive thread about Sweden for once. It's long overdo. :laugh:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Justinian was a shit emperor who rode on the coattails of Belisarius. I don't see why the Nordics want to claim him. :coffee:

[XenophobicPrussian]

There is something I don't understand about this kind of Nordicism. I think you will agree with me.

If the splendor of civilization such as ancient Rome and ancient Greece is all due to their Nordic elite, why did these Nordic people need to migrate to Southern Europe? Why didn't they founded civilizations so important in Northern Europe in the same historical era?
Same reason why more intelligent homo sapiens evolved in Africa instead of Europe or the ME, need/environmental pressure, even though obviously today Europe is the more advanced/intelligent continent, not Africa. Of course, that's the same excuse liberals use for black people, they didn't develop civilization because they didn't need it, the difference is though -they do need civilization now and have for awhile now- and still don't have it, and we actually have their IQ statistics.

It's very possible these things were needed to form a civilization:

Altruism
Higher level of human cooperation
Higher IQ

--------

Arable land
Overpopulation
Outside human group threats

The first group of qualities could've been restricted to the north of Europe, the second group could've been restricted to the south, and civilization didn't happen until both met.

but yes, I do agree with you, and it's high unlikely, I'm just throwing ideas out there to try and answer that question.

[Robocop]

Fucking Nordicists, you wanna another of your annihilation like in 1945 because of your RETARDED AND SHAMEFULL thinking? DO YOU?

YOU ARE SHAME TO ALL OF US WHITE PEOPLE, to all other White phenotypes, you brought all of us on verge of extinction today because of your fucking MENTAL RETARDATION which stretches to your MENTOR called - ADOLF HITLER.

I am White European Patriot, but I dont hate anyone, and I am pure Democratic person...

BUT YOU... YOU NORDICISTS... you should be hanged like those fuckers (your brothers) in Nürnberg. I have nothing against pure Nordid phenotype, but when someone starts to talk about some Nordicists Supremacy... than TALK IS OVER.

You fuckers (Nordicists) I repeat: YOU ARE A SHAME OF OUR WHITE RACE, and you almost brought doom to all of us... May you burn in Hell like those fuckers of Third Reich.

Greets.

[Robocop]

Just try us (Nordicists FUCKS), you will suck the taste of defeat like in 1945, and all of WHITES WILL BE AGAINST YOU, and this time..., if you ever come to power again in Europe WITH YOUR MENTAL RETARDATION, this time... WE WILL exterminate YOU ALL, NOT JUST YOUR OFFICERS AND GENERALS.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Being better is subjective. The quality of life might be better, but if it's really all that great why are people from these countries on here constantly whining about how liberal they are or how the government sucks and how minorities are taking over. I haven't seen a positive thread about Sweden posted here yet, they're all negative. I'm still waiting for just one positive thread about the country, just one that isn't about immigrants. Is that too much to ask? heh. On the contrary the people from the "bad countries" don't seem to be complaining about their countries nearly as much.

On the appeal of people wanting to claim Italian history, people seek to claim such history because Italy like France and also Britain, Greece has one of the richest histories/cultures in Europe in the same way that China does in East Asia or the Levant in the ME. It's not about being first that is appealing, it's that these regions are the beginning of the west and western culture. What would our literature look like today without contributions from Greece and their invention of practically every modern genre. What would classical music be without Italian contribution with Opera, Orchestra, Piano, Violin, contributions to musical notation, Vivaldi's contributions to concerto which later went on to influnece both Beethoven and Mozart directly. Western culture would be unrecognizable if you were to remove either of these groups from history. That is the appeal.

I was serious about the part on Sweden, someone really needs to post a positive thread about Sweden for once. It's long overdo. :laugh:
Sorry but I'm not going to argue about whether today, northern Europe is better or not than southern Europe. The information is all there.

How liberal or how the country will be in the future because of demographic changes has nothing to do with how good the country is now. Southern Europe might be better than east London or Malmo, that's about it. I actually consider liberalism and letting in immigrants a civilized trait, and also, there's a difference between stupidity and naivety. Looking at European migrations today, southern Europeans go north to study and for economic reasons, northern Europeans go south for the weather, that says it all.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Just try us (Nordicists FUCKS), you will suck the taste of defeat like in 1945, and all of WHITES WILL BE AGAINST YOU, and this time..., if you ever come to power again in Europe WITH YOUR MENTAL RETARDATION, this time... WE WILL exterminate YOU ALL, NOT JUST YOUR OFFICERS AND GENERALS.
LOL.

[Robocop]

LOL.

Just laugh you fucking Nordid barbarian, what is so funny? That you don't have any kind of Civilization what so ever before you met Rome (and Atlantids, Dinarids, Atlanto-Meds, Keltids etc)? That's funny to you? Fucking Nordid Android.

Your MENTOR HITLER had to INVENT history and fairytales about your "SUPERMACY", he was saying how you came from ATLANTIS hahahhahahahahahahahahhahaahhaha.

YOU ARE NOTHING MORE BUT A FUCKING BARBARIANS from Roman Gladiator arenas, that's the whole truth.

That is your WHOLE SUPREMACY.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Just laugh you fucking Nordid barbarian, what is so funny? That you don't have any kind of Civilization what so ever before you met Rome (and Atlantids, Dinarids, Atlanto-Meds, Keltids etc)? That's funny to you? Fucking Nordid Android.
Did you move your hands around hysterically like an Arab/Sicilian when you wrote that first post?

Anyway, don't worry, we'll be gone soon. Once that happens, your economic conditions will be decided by the Chinese.

Btw, Hitler had black hair and was E haplogroup, him and his shitty military/strategic decisions are all yours.

"I hate Nordicists and people who divide the white race" moments later "FUCK PIG NORDICS"

Typical of a black man: "Race doesn't exist, we all bleed red" moments later "FUCK PIG WHITES"

[Robocop]

Did you move your hands around hysterically like an Arab/Sicilian when you wrote that first post?

Anyway, don't worry, we'll be gone soon. Once that happens, your economic conditions will be decided by the Chinese.

Btw, Hitler had black hair and was E haplogroup, him and his shitty military/strategic decisions are all yours.

Hitler was deluded Non-Nordid White who sucked Nordid dick.

Oh you think I will cry when you Nordicists are gone? I will not, you should be gone in this second.

Make a difference between; NORDID and NORDICISTS, two separate things, I don't wish extinction to Nordid phenotype, but Nordicists are somethin which is the greatest evil WHITE MEN EVER FACED ON FACE OF THIS CONTINENT (along with rest of the World), you almost brought us all (all Whites) to knees today.

BECAUSE OF YOU THERE IS SUCH THING AS "WHITE BURDEN", because your sickness which you spread daily amongst yourselfs and others.

I dont know are you Nordicist, but you sound like one, and be assured, if ever any Nordicists power arise in Europe, it will be delt like in 1945, but this time... FOREVER.

[Robocop]

"I hate Nordicists and people who divide the white race" moments later "FUCK PIG NORDICS"

Typical of a black man: "Race doesn't exist, we all bleed red" moments later "FUCK PIG WHITES"

No, you are inventing the words which I did not said.

RACE DOES EXIST, White race is a fact, but It's not in your NORDICIST hands, because you saw fit once to take it into your own hands, and killed tens of millions WHITES and Jews, you think you will have another chance?

And let me use some your NORDICIST "BIBLE" Philosophy: If you Nordids (as a Nordid phenotype) are destined to die out, than DIE OUT, It's a natural order of things, the strong survives, isn't that your philosophy?

Obviously you are not the strong ones, because if you were, you would not face extinction like you do today, where are you? FIGHT for survival... no... you are just sheeps (majority of people who belongs to Nordid phenotypes) who are just waiting for being exterminated by immigrants from Africa and Asia, well...

Who do you think will help you from other Europeans when you shit all the time with Nordicists bullshit? Nowone will help you, and if you are destined to die out, than GAME IS OVER for you and just accept it.

Rest of white phenotypes (Rest of White race) will just go ahead fine without you, dont you worry.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Nazi Germany's war efforts and concentration camps had nothing to do with Nordicism, you idiot.

Hitler and others were Nordicist, but that was their personal belief, they didn't have any policies reflecting it and no discrimination of dark ethnic Germans took place. I have no idea what the heck you're blabbing about. Nazi Germany was anti-semetic and pro-revanchist(getting back lost lands), socially conservative and economically on the left. That's about all there is to say about them.

I also find it funny how you find simply discussing history such a dangerous thing. You're basically saying don't talk about it, instead of trying to debate the merits of it.

[Bezprym]

Question "were Roman emperors all blonde" is stupid enough to discuss it on serious form.

[Robocop]

Nazi Germany's war efforts and concentration camps had nothing to do with Nordicism, you idiot.

Oh it has everything to do with it, when you and your Nordicist fellows are talking about so called "Supremacy" EVEN ABOVE other White people, that's how things (Hell) starts, so you would't have anything against of killing few millions of "Sub-Humans" dont you? Maybe even a Fourth Reich would please you? Oh how beautiful must be that Swastika flag to your heart LOL. Why not admitting, you can lie to me but I guess not to yourself if you are Nordicist.



Hitler and others were Nordicist, but that was their personal belief, they didn't have any policies reflecting it and no discrimination of dark ethnic Germans took place. I have no idea what the heck you're blabbing about. Nazi Germany was anti-semetic and pro-revanchist(getting back lost lands), socially conservative and economically on the left. That's about all there is to say about them.

Im not sure It's "them" in your case, so you should rather use word "us" when referring to them. :)



I also find it funny how you find simply discussing history such a dangerous thing. You're basically saying don't talk about it, instead of trying to debate the merits of it.

There is nothing to talk about with Nordicists..., at least nothing productive, just babbling of your "supremacy", I have more important and smarter things to do in my life but I just had to write this in the name of others, those young people here who are reading Nordicist bullshits.

And don't get me wrong, I would say the same thing to any other White racial/phenotype group if it was the case, even if It's my own, but this is about you, you are always babbling about Supremacy, always about some PURITY of Nordic race, oh how beautiful it is with those blonde hair and blue eyes and proclaim it as better than anyone else, you must be from Atlantis as Hitler have said, there is no other explanation for your "Supremacy", we other Whites should be HONORED if you say HELLO to us isn' it? LOL

Because if we are rude... than you will dig up your "LASER-SPACE SHIPS" from Atlantis and burn us all...lol.

And those Non-Nordid Whites who are looking up to you as some sort of White Demi-Gods are even worse than you Nordicists, one don't know should he laugh or cry when see them (pathetic fucks, victims of your propaganda) how they praise you lol.

[aksakallicocuk]

ALL ROMAN EMPERORS WERE TURANİD-KUMİD!!! TURK UBERMENCSH!!!! ALL HAİL GRAND TURK!!!!
İ just wanted to write something at the same level of the stupidness of issue.

[Robocop]

ALL ROMAN EMPERORS WERE TURANİD-KUMİD!!! TURK UBERMENCSH!!!! ALL HAİL GRAND TURK!!!!
İ just wanted to write something at the same level of the stupidness of issue.

LOL...

Well, Nordicists are on the level not only to write that but they are ready to tell everyone that even Babylonians were NORDIC lol, not to mention some White non-Nordid civilization from Europe.

When they are threaten by TRUTH about their ancient history, than they turn to their disciplined society of today as a "proof of their superiority".

Every White racial phenotype (and other races in general) have some unique things about them considering social behavior, Nordids have discipline close to Androids (somethin like Japanese), and somehow they always manage to mask it as "SAME THING" as Creativity & Intelligence.

And many fall for that, unfortunately.

This forum is no exception.

[Robocop]

One last thing:

I have no problems if individual thinks for himself or herself that he or she is the best in something or everything, that is her/his own business, and that can even be good sometimes in life even though it may sound egoistic, but sometimes that means to push yourself as individual forward (as one way of pushing yourself forward, and I respect that, because Im eternal optimist).

But if large number of people, nevermind are that people a nation, or Anthropological phenotype etc... starts to proclaim THOSE SAME PRINCIPALS of individuals FOR ALL OTHERS OF THAT PARTICULAR NATION OR PHENOTYPE, than that WILL become a problem, History always teach us that but we never learn...

Because such group of people will soner or later try to implement that mass delusions about themselfs TO OTHERS, and they will not stop at that, they will even justify killings as NATURAL order of nature.

But those kind of group of people do not realize that Humans are not like others in nature, we are not like Animals, we have somethin which animals do not, and that is INTELLIGENCE (Highest form of evolution on Earth) which should come hand to hand with MORAL, with great knowledge comes great responsibility.

So Hitler was contradicting his own ideology, he was comparing Humans with animals ("Strong survives", but he didnt knew exactly what strong can mean when it comes about Humans, and he never would), and than in the same time HE WAS TALKING ABOUT SUPREMACY, and then IN THE SAME TIME he was saying at the very end of his Reich that his ENTIRE GERMAN PEOPLE deserve to die because it has been shown that Germans "are Inferior".

I think no comments on such thinking is needed.

This Nordicists who thinks that their way of thinking about themselfs is different from Nazis, WELL... IT IS THE SAME THINKING WITH ONE "SLIGHT" DIFFERENCE: They don't have means (political, power and weapons) to show that to others with bullets and bombs along with their thinking, so their only way is forum ofcourse.

CHEERS.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Oh it has everything to do with it, when you and your Nordicist fellows are talking about so called "Supremacy" EVEN ABOVE other White people, that's how things (Hell) starts, so you would't have anything against of killing few millions of "Sub-Humans" dont you? Maybe even a Fourth Reich would please you? Oh how beautiful must be that Swastika flag to your heart LOL. Why not admitting, you can lie to me but I guess not to yourself if you are Nordicist.
I'd love a Fourth Reich.

Send the Jews packing to Israel(unless they give up their rights to vote/work in media/make policy as politicians so they can't be supportive of immigration), send all the non-Europeans, Arabs, blacks, Turks, etc outside of Europe. Nothing to do with Nordicism or blonde hair, lol.

As for my idealogy, I don't believe ancient civilizations were started because of Nordics or Nordic admixture, I don't believe Nordics have it in them to act like Congoids like a Caligula. I do like discussing the topic, but no, I don't believe in historic Nordicism. I am a modern Nordicist though, which simply means, I'd rather live in Sweden than Greece, and I relate more with Nordics and Nordic behavior(as well as looks). Non-Nordics use too much capslock.

[aksakallicocuk]

LOL...

Well, Nordicists are on the level not only to write that but they are ready to tell everyone that even Babylonians were NORDIC lol, not to mention some White non-Nordid civilization from Europe.

When they are threaten by TRUTH about their ancient history, than they turn to their disciplined society of today as a "proof of their superiority".

Every White racial phenotype (and other races in general) have some unique things about them considering social behavior, Nordids have discipline close to Androids (somethin like Japanese), and somehow they always manage to mask it as "SAME THING" as Creativity & Intelligence.

And many fall for that, unfortunately.

This forum is no exception.
There is a guy on this forum claims etruscans,sumerians,babylonians are Turkic. LOL

[MagnusAurelius]

I'd love a Fourth Reich.

Send the Jews packing to Israel(unless they give up their rights to vote/work in media/make policy as politicians so they can't be supportive of immigration), send all the non-Europeans, Arabs, blacks, Turks, etc outside of Europe. Nothing to do with Nordicism or blonde hair, lol.

As for my idealogy, I don't believe ancient civilizations were started because of Nordics or Nordic admixture, I don't believe Nordics have it in them to act like Congoids like a Caligula. I do like discussing the topic, but no, I don't believe in historic Nordicism. I am a modern Nordicist though, which simply means, I'd rather live in Sweden than Greece, and I relate more with Nordics and Nordic behavior(as well as looks). Non-Nordics use too much capslock.


Most Nordicisits believe Ancient Civilizations are a result of their influence, like an Afrocentric, they are just two sides of the same coin, they believe in Unproven revisionist history and Pseudo-Science/Anthropology. Most Nordicist fools are are like this just so they can claim the greatest ancient civilizations in Southern Europe for their own people since they were the primitives of Europe at the level of primitive blacks in Africa in Europe for 1000+ years.

You also repeat the same mantra many Nordic idiots do, this picture suits people like you.

http://i.imgur.com/iWsFlXa.jpg

Jews do not run the world, the Rothschilds banking dynasty, the most powerful "jews" on earth are agents for a higher power, they are members of an elitist group, The Knights of Malta, if you type "Knights of Malta" Rothschilds on google images, you will see pictures of many past Rothschilds wearing that groups insignia as badges on their clothing. Obviously they are not controlling this group, how could they? Only the founders of some type of elitist group would be in control, they joined them.

It is really the Jesuits/Knights of Malta who are closer to the top of the New World Order Pyramid, they are the founders of many other think tank globalist groups who are effectively above Corporations and Governments.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2LcoEfQh9U

Stop falling for the disinfo Jew propaganda like so many Internet Nazi losers do and what 90% of the brainwashed idiots on 8chan Pol think. Still, I don't think there is hope for you at all, you are an easily influenced weak minded man who even believes mainstram media, your Nordic Hero worship was all staged.

http://nodisinfo.com/autopsy-michael-brown-hoax/

You also make no sense at all, I don't know how you can relate with Nordics more in terms of behavior, what the hell does that mean? We are all our own individual no matter what race, you can't apply certain behavior to every single person in a race or ethnicity. You are also not fully Nordic and a mixed Nordic at the most according to your taxonomy so keep worshiping Nordics.

[MagnusAurelius]

I wouldn't call it crazy to think just because Nordic countries are better today than southern countries, the first ancient southern civilizations had to be run by Nordics or people mixed with Nordics. I mean, given the vast majority, if not all African American intellectuals have some white admixture(not every Afro-American does), it kind of makes sense, but it is still stupid and there isn't enough evidence, so I agree.

Most racists/right-wingers are stupid overall anyway, whether they're Nordicists, or just white nationalists, racists do usually tend to have lower IQs. I wouldn't say racism/right-wing policy is stupid though, just that lower class whites are attracted more to the idealogy because they have more experience with minorities while higher class people are usually in homogenous areas.

You contradicting fool, you said you believed Ancient Civilizations were not because of Nordic influence in another post. The first ancient Civilizations were not run by Nordics or founded by them you pathetic fool, enjoy your inferiority complex, you will never change the fact that Nordics were the primitive scum of Europe for 1000 years at the level of Black African development or not much higher, Germanic's surly were on the level of Black Africans being the most primitive Barbarians. You are also wrong, in modern times Nordic nations were not always wealthy. Scandinavia was dirty poor until post world-war 2 development, Nothern European nations may be more developed with better economies than nations like Spain and Italy today but the difference is not vast, it is minimal and surly no where near the difference Southern European civilization was under the Roman Empire vs the primitive Germanic scum in the North. Keep trying to claim Nordics ran the greatest ancient civilization, enjoy your fantasy land lunatic. Roman and Greek statue busts clearly show none were Nordic at all, hahahaha.

[MagnusAurelius]

Not according to the OP, he thinks they were pure southern or these light Italians are 100% the same genetically as dark Italians.

He posted this map saying it's proof all Italians are more similar to eachother than other people, while there's a ton of ITs north of the Italian core, lol. Historic Italian Nordicism(again, I am not a historic Nordicism, I'm just pointing it out) simply makes the point(whether they express it well or not is another story) that the upper classes of the Roman Empire were those Northern ITs closer to Germany, not the ITs closer to the Italian core, that's pretty much their argument(and again, I don't agree with it, I don't think there's suffiecient evidence, I don't even know if the sources in the OP's first post are correct, people describing others in ancient writings is iffy anyway), not that they were the Nordid/Scandinavian phenotype. Not to mention, Alpinids/Dinarids/Norics which the OP is claiming as Italian aren't even most common in Italy, especially not in central or south Italy.

http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png

I know, you said Northern Italy independence is irrelevant now. There's still a party called Lega Nord so it is relevant.

Here he goes again trying to equate the elite of Ancient Rome with Germans, more laughable fantasies. The elite of Ancient Rome were closest to the pure Itallic tribes who migrated into Italy with the Indo-European migrations, they were probably Italo-Celtic R1B, they were not genetically closer to Germans who were a different sub-clad of R1B. The reason why Italians are all over the place on that genetic map is because Southern Italians have more indigenous European ancestry (Neolithic mediteranean farmers before Indo-European migrations) Sardinians having the most cluster farther from all of all Europeans since they are a 100% racially pure and Isolated Caucasian people. Still, according to that map, the Italians at the top are genetically closest with Spanairds, Portuguese and French, still not German, they are also at an almost equal distance from most of the Italians at the bottom on that genetic distance map.

[MagnusAurelius]

It's from a Richard Lynn article. http://speciali.espresso.repubblica.it/carlucci/richard_lynn_north_south_differences_in_iq.pdf

The regional study is from 2006 PISA scores. Yes, PISA scores aren't exactly IQ tests but comparing it to other countries and how wealth correlates with PISA scores in even poorer European areas(for example, NE Slavic countries) than southern Italy it is shown to be pretty accurate and a good predictor for IQ. Scroll down to the chart if you don't wanna read it. Lynn has also debunked any naysayers well.

Here's a map of the 2009 Italian PISA scores by region:

https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/italy-apostate-pisa-scores.png

Also, Italy's IQ is NOT 102. People and even the media keep using Richard Lynn/Tatu Vanhanen's 2002 book even though they kept updating it to make it more accurate(inaccuracies were minor and mostly the same countries were ahead/behind eachother), with their latest update and book being from 2012 which has Italy's IQ at 96.1(nothern regions have around 102 with Venezia-Fruili being the highest at 103)

Here's a semi-accurate map, or look up the results from Lynn/Vanhanen's 2012 book.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1701/europeiq1200.png

Don't know why he is obsessed with IQ now, Asians who have a slightly larger Cranial capacity than Caucasians score higher than all Europeans on average.

[MagnusAurelius]

I know you're being sarcastic, but do you have any proof blonde hair and pitch black hair can evolve in the same place/climate?

I mean, we know Sicily is 95% dark haired, and the mainstream explanation for any person in Sicily without light hair is that person is a descandant of some Norman settlers, which there is proof of. The blonde hair mutation didn't just pop up alongside everyone else who were still getting black hair in the very sunny Sicilian climate. Why would ancient Rome be any different?

There is no proof of that and that is false, the Normans did not mix with the native population, the native population far outnumbered the invaders. There have been depictions of South Italians with blonde hair in Etruscan art so Blondism was not brought in by Nothern European invaders.

[MagnusAurelius]

It doesn't matter if the genes for light hair and eyes come from Nothern Europe, Italians with light eyes and those who also have light hair are still genetically closer to dark eyes/hair Italians than they are Nothern Europeans. The gene for hair and eye color is totally different than the genes for genetic relations to other people since genes for light hair and eyes are recessive mutations.

[MagnusAurelius]

He also claims Davinci was a "Noric" A Noric is some blend who is half Nordic and half some other Caucasian racial type.

http://imgur.com/a/4y6SP Davinci does not look Noric, his nose is slightly longer than Norics and his nose does not stick out as much as Norics do, Davinci is AtlantoMed, probably a pure AltantoMed.

[Thunder_shock]

Romans are as med as you can get.

[coolstorybro]

There is no proof of that and that is false, the Normans did not mix with the native population, the native population far outnumbered the invaders. There have been depictions of South Italians with blonde hair in Etruscan art so Blondism was not brought in by Nothern European invaders.

The Normanns absolutely mixed with the locals and intermarried to local nobles. They were assimiliated language wise within a couple of generations.

[wvwvw]

Justician looks like a unibrowed iraqi lol

[wvwvw]

Nordicists always equate having light eyes and hair as having "Nordish" ancestry, Nordish is a made up word by delusional Nordicists so they can include more non-Nordic prototypes within their Nordic race and label anyone with blonde hair and light eyes as being "Nordish".

http://marchofthetitans.com/earlson/romanemperors.htm

8 of the 18 Roman Emperors here have light hair, 7 blonde, 1 red head. They claim the sources are from actual Roman sources but are they really? Marchofthetitans is a known Nordic supremacist site. Even if it is true, this does not make them Nordic, all the Roman Emperors had Alpine-Dinaric phenotypes. The nobility has always had more people with light eyes and hair due to inbreeding. It claims Caligula had a "Golden Beard" here but he had brown hair and hazel eyes, I don't think a brown haired person could have a golden blonde beard.

http://www.romanemperors.com/images/caligula/polychromy-head.jpg

Justinian had hazel eyes and black hair, I doubt most Roman Emperors actually had blonde/light hair.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Meister_von_San_Vitale_in_Ravenna.jpg

He looks oriental

[Bagot]

Justician looks like a unibrowed iraqi lol

Justician? Do you mean Justinian? Btw Justinian wasn't an ethnic Roman but was born in Tauresium, modern Macedonia.

[Dweller23]

Typical pan european truest blood trait.

[wvwvw]

Justician? Do you mean Justinian? Btw Justinian wasn't an ethnic Roman but was born in Tauresium, modern Macedonia.

His mother was born somewhere in Asia Minor or Cyprus if I am correct.

Most of the Byzantine and Roman Emperors had mixed ethnic background

Justinian is often assumed to be Illyrian because of the name of a really big province called Illyrium, but he was really of Thracian origin. He may well have been Greek Thracian since Greeks lived there. He married a Cypriot princess. He showed no interest of preserving any Illyrian or Slavic dialect if he was indeed Illyrian why didn't he?

[Mens-Sarda]

according to the ancient fonts Justinian was born in the village of Tauresium, in the actual Macedonia, near Skopje, from a humble family, his family was surely descendant of the Roman colonists settled along the Via Egnatia, the ancient Roman road which connected Dyrrachium to Constantinopolis, in fact according to his contemporaries he usually spoke Latin, and spoke Greek like a barbarian

[wvwvw]

according to the ancient fonts Justinian was born in the village of Tauresium, in the actual Macedonia, near Skopje, from a humble family, his family was surely descendant of the Roman colonists settled along the Via Egnatia, the ancient Roman road which connected Dyrrachium to Constantinopolis, in fact according to his contemporaries he usually spoke Latin, and spoke Greek like a barbarian

Maybe...but his name was Savvatios or Savatius
Latin: Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus Augustus, Greek: Φλάβιος Πέτρος Σαββάτιος Ἰουστινιανός Flávios Pétros Sabbátios ...

http://www.hellinon.net/NeesSelides/Autokratores.files/image002.jpg
Here is a St.Sophia mosaic of Virgin Mary with Emperors Constantine om the left and Justinian on the right, with their names written in Greek. In the mosaic Constantine offers to Mary Constantinople and Justicinian offers the Church St. Sofia to Virgin Mary.


Savazios, Sabazius, or Sabdius - (Gr. Σαβἀζιος, ΣΑΒἈΖΙΟΣ) name of Dionysos among the Sabæ, a people of Thrace. One of the mysterious rites of this God was to let a snake slip down the bosom of the person to be initiated, which was taken out below. (CM*p.183)
- Σᾰβάζιος, ὁ, (Σαβός) a Phrygian deity, whose Mysteries resembled the τελεταί of Dionysus; hence afterwards taken as a name of Dionysus himself. II. Adj. Σᾰβάζιος, α, ον, Bacchic. (L&S p.1579, left column)
- Sabazius (collat. form Sebazius, Sebadius or Sabadius, Macr. S. 1, 18; App. M. 8, p.213), 1i, m., = Σαβἀζιος, a surname. I. Of Bacchus, --Hence, Sabazia, orum, n. a festival in honor of Sabazius or Bacchus. II. Of Jupiter: Sabazii Jovis cultus. (LD p.1609, center column)
- In the Orphic hymn, Sabazios is called the son of Kronos (Zeus): "Hear me, father Sabazios, son of Kronos, illustrious God. You sewed into your thigh Bacchic Dionysos,..." (Orphic Hymn 48. To Sabazios, translated by Apostolos N. Athanassakis, The Orphic Hymns, 1977; found in the 1988 Scholars Press edition on p.65)
- words related to Sabazios:
σᾰβάζω (sabazo) = εὐάζω. (L&S p.1579, right column) εὐάζω, cry εὐαί, in honour of Bacchus. (L&S, p.705, right column)
σᾰβαῖ (sabai), a Bacchanalian cry, like εὐαί, εὐοῖ. (L&S p.1579, right column)

Sebadius - see Sabazius.

Sebazius - see Sabazius.

[wvwvw]

...

[Mens-Sarda]

in the late Roman empire and in early Bizantine empire the name Flavius was like an honorific title added to the name, when a person became "noble" or was promoted to important positions (he was promoted to high officier in the Scholae, the units of Palace guards)

the praenomen Justinianus (son of Justinus), was added to his true name when he was adopted by his uncle Justinus (former general and later emperor)
the praenomen Augustus, the classical honorific title adopted by emperors

ultimately his original name should be Petrus Sabbatius (Petrus of the gens Sabbatia)

[wvwvw]

in the late Roman empire and in early Bizantine empire the name Flavius was like an honorific title added to the name, when a person became "noble" or was promoted to important positions (he was promoted to high officier in the Scholae, the units of Palace guards)

the praenomen Justinianus (son of Justinus), was added to his true name when he was adopted by his uncle Justinus (former general and later emperor)
the praenomen Augustus, the classical honorific title adopted by emperors

ultimately his original name should be Petrus Sabbatius (Petrus of the gens Sabbatia)

Could be

[Era]

His mother was born somewhere in Asia Minor or Cyprus if I am correct.

Most of the Byzantine and Roman Emperors had mixed ethnic background

Justinian is often assumed to be Illyrian because of the name of a really big province called Illyrium, but he was really of Thracian origin. He may well have been Greek Thracian since Greeks lived there. He married a Cypriot princess. He showed no interest of preserving any Illyrian or Slavic dialect if he was indeed Illyrian why didn't he?

He did contribute, he founded the academy in Skupi, closed the one in Athens, favored illyrians throughout his career in the most crucial positions in the army, Nazares, Bellisarius were Illyrian born
https://books.google.com/books?id=eK9aBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA402&lpg=PA402&dq=justinian+illyria+contribute&source=bl&ots=GiwTVVUTwI&sig=brQ03lWQ_3Q0gD-KfPyCs53KLNU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC8Q6AEwBTgKahUKEwj93vijo4vHAhUCrB4KHX0qAG0#v =onepage&q=justinian%20illyria%20contribute&f=false

Germanus when addressing Illyrian soldiers in Africa was reminding them that the Roman state depended on them and wealth was given accordingly

https://books.google.com/books?id=ep6U-meRt00C&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=justinian+illyria+contribute&source=bl&ots=zZGG-OKZ3f&sig=n9F8bFosekXoCcwaImiEIjcOPhI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBzgKahUKEwj93vijo4vHAhUCrB4KHX0qAG0#v =onepage&q=justinian%20illyria%20contribute&f=false

Anastasius, Justin, Justinian were Latin speaking illyrians, Peter the Patrician a greek speaking Illyrian.
The Illyrian Marcellinus was appointed cancellarius to Justinian.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ep6U-meRt00C&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=justinian+illyria+contribute&source=bl&ots=zZGG-OKZ3f&sig=n9F8bFosekXoCcwaImiEIjcOPhI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBzgKahUKEwj93vijo4vHAhUCrB4KHX0qAG0#v =onepage&q=justinian%20illyria%20contribute&f=false

[ЛыSSый]

screw all! according last historical data in my country all thay were hohols from ukraine or had ukrainian ancestry.

[Wadaad]

One thing I've come to discover (and it was not just Tacitus) but mediterrenean/south euro envy of Blonde/Germanics ran DEEP. Apparently blonde weave was a big thing for the Roman ladies, just like Indian hair/weaves are for my nubian sistas. So whether the emperors were blonde or not doesnt matter as much as the general 'covetousness' of it.

[wvwvw]

He did contribute, he founded the academy in Skupi, closed the one in Athens, favored illyrians throughout his career in the most crucial positions in the army, Nazares, Bellisarius were Illyrian born
https://books.google.com/books?id=eK9aBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA402&lpg=PA402&dq=justinian+illyria+contribute&source=bl&ots=GiwTVVUTwI&sig=brQ03lWQ_3Q0gD-KfPyCs53KLNU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC8Q6AEwBTgKahUKEwj93vijo4vHAhUCrB4KHX0qAG0#v =onepage&q=justinian%20illyria%20contribute&f=false

Favored Illyrians? so why didn't he preserve even a text in Illyrian language? :laugh:

Why he married a Greek-speaking Cypriot princess?

Finally does he look Albanian to you?

[Mens-Sarda]

Favored Illyrians? so why didn't he preserve even a text in Illyrian language? :laugh:

Why he married a Greek-speaking Cypriot princess?

Finally does he look Albanian to you?


ehm, Theodora was not exactly a princess :laugh:

from a Short History of Byzantium, by John Julius Norwich :

the second great turning-point in Justinian's life: his meeting with his future Empress. Theodora was not an ideal match. Her father had been a bear-keeper at the Hippodrome, her mother an acrobat – antecedents more than enough to debar her from polite society. But they were not all. While still a child Theodora had joined her elder sister on the stage, playing in farce and burlesque. Before long she had graduated to being Constantinople's most notorious courtesan. In surely one of the most outspoken pieces of vilification ever directed against a queen or empress in all history, her contemporary Procopius writes:


When Theodora was still too immature to sleep with a man or to have intercourse like a woman, she acted as might a male prostitute to satisfy those dregs of humanity who remained some considerable time in a brothel, given over to such unnatural traffic of the body… But as soon as she reached maturity she became a harlot. Never was any woman so completely abandoned to pleasure. Many a time she would attend a banquet with ten young men or more, all with a passion for fornication and at the peak of their powers, and would lie with all her companions the whole night long; and when she had reduced them all to exhaustion she would go to their attendants sometimes as many as thirty of them – and copulate with each in turn; and even then she could not satisfy her lust. And although she made use of three apertures in her body, she was wont to complain that Nature had not provided her with larger openings in her nipples, so that she might have contrived another form of intercourse there. Often in the theatre, too, in full view of all the people… she would spread herself out and lie on her back on the ground. And certain slaves whose special task it was would sprinkle grains of barley over her private parts; and geese trained for the purpose would pick them off one by one with their beaks and swallow them.

[Era]

ehm, Theodora was not exactly a princess :laugh:

.

Hookers become princesses after enough time has passed :D

[Bezprym]

Oh...
This thread still exist? O_o

[Era]

Favored Illyrians? so why didn't he preserve even a text in Illyrian language? :laugh:

Why he married a Greek-speaking Cypriot princess?

Finally does he look Albanian to you?

Look at the links I quoted, the last one is by Marcellinus (Illyrian) who was his contemporary and wrote Justinian's official chronicles. Read Craine read.

[Mens-Sarda]

Hookers become princesses after enough time has passed :D


even Belisarius' wife Antonina had the same skills :D

His military gifts and physical courage were unquestioned, and he was a natural leader of men. He had but one liability: his wife. Antonina too had been brought up in the theatre and the circus; and her past, if not as lurid as Theodora's, was certainly far from stainless. At least twelve years older than her husband, she had already had several children, in and out of wedlock. Unlike the Empress, she had made no attempt to reform her character after her marriage, and in the years to come was to cause her husband both embarrassment and anguish; but Belisarius continued to love her, and took her with him on all his campaigns.

[Wadaad]

even Belisarius' wife Antonina had the same skills :D

His military gifts and physical courage were unquestioned, and he was a natural leader of men. He had but one liability: his wife. Antonina too had been brought up in the theatre and the circus; and her past, if not as lurid as Theodora's, was certainly far from stainless. At least twelve years older than her husband, she had already had several children, in and out of wedlock. Unlike the Empress, she had made no attempt to reform her character after her marriage, and in the years to come was to cause her husband both embarrassment and anguish; but Belisarius continued to love her, and took her with him on all his campaigns.

He was a cuckold...he was a young successful military general, could get any woman he wanted but he chose her even though she was 10 years his senior. He never got respect from his subordinates because (I'm sure) they all banged his woman. Truly a woman can make or break a man's legacy. Theodora never made a cuck out of Justinian, even though she was a hoe too. Theodora is proof you can change a young hoe, but an old hoe is damaged goods.

[Era]

One thing I've come to discover (and it was not just Tacitus) but mediterrenean/south euro envy of Blonde/Germanics ran DEEP. Apparently blonde weave was a big thing for the Roman ladies, just like Indian hair/weaves are for my nubian sistas. So whether the emperors were blonde or not doesnt matter as much as the general 'covetousness' of it.

All European nobility had blonde wigs a couple centuries ago. It was deemed more aesthetic apparently, nothing to do with envy or germanics I believe.

[Proctor]

He was a cuckold...he was a young successful military general, could get any woman he wanted but he chose her even though she was 10 years his senior. He never got respect from his subordinates because (I'm sure) they all banged his woman. Truly a woman can make or break a man's legacy. Theodora never made a cuck out of Justinian, even though she was a hoe too. Theodora is proof you can change a young hoe, but an old hoe is damaged goods.

What a boss ass way to describe historical people. You should become a history teacher

[Wadaad]

All European nobility had blonde wigs a couple centuries ago. It was deemed more aesthetic apparently, nothing to do with envy or germanics I believe.

Nope, blonde hair was specifically seen as superior ("more aesthetic" = superior). Infact it was a big thing in the 'barbarian' lands north of the Danube and west of the Rhine...the blonde hair was a big economy for the Germanic barbarians, sort of like Red Indians and fur trading here. This is well documented and a manifestation of proto-OWD

[Era]

Nope, blonde hair was specifically seen as superior ("more aesthetic" = superior). Infact it was a big thing in the 'barbarian' lands north of the Danube and west of the Rhine...the blonde hair was a big economy for the Germanic barbarians, sort of like Red Indians and fur trading here. This is well documented and a manifestation of proto-OWD

Have you seen French nobility in blonde wigs. I can assure you they looked down on germanics as barbarians.

[Mens-Sarda]

Byzantine opinion about barbarians :D, when Charlemagne proposed to the empress Irene to marry him and reunite eastern and western Roman empire :

They detested their Empress, but they never questioned her fundamental right to occupy the throne. So much the greater, therefore, was their alarm when they realized that Irene, far from being repelled by the very idea of marriage with an illiterate barbarian, appeared on the contrary to be disposed to accept. She was a deeply selfish woman and a pragmatist. By 802, when Charles's ambassadors arrived in Constantinople, she had reduced the Empire to penury. Her subjects despised her, her advisers were at each other's throats, her exchequer was exhausted. Sooner or later a coup was inevitable. Now, suddenly, there came a chance of salvation. It mattered little to her that her suitor was a rival Emperor, nor that he was in her eyes an adventurer and a heretic; by marrying him she would preserve the unity of the Empire – and, incidentally, her own skin.
But it was not to be. Her subjects had no intention of welcoming this boorish Frank in his ridiculously cross-gartered scarlet leggings, speaking an incomprehensible language and unable even to sign his name except by stencilling it through a plate, like Theodoric three centuries before. On the last day of October 802 a group of high-ranking officials summoned an assembly in the Hippodrome and declared Irene deposed. Arrested and brought to the capital, she accepted the situation with dignity. She was exiled to Lesbos; and a year later she was dead. But, though the Empire had been saved from further humiliation, the unthinkable had occurred. A jumped-up barbarian chieftain was calling himself Emperor, and had been crowned as such by the Pope in Rome. Henceforth there would be two Empires, not one. The old order was gone. The Christian world would never be the same again.

[Bagot]

His mother was born somewhere in Asia Minor or Cyprus if I am correct.

Most of the Byzantine and Roman Emperors had mixed ethnic background

Justinian is often assumed to be Illyrian because of the name of a really big province called Illyrium, but he was really of Thracian origin. He may well have been Greek Thracian since Greeks lived there. He married a Cypriot princess. He showed no interest of preserving any Illyrian or Slavic dialect if he was indeed Illyrian why didn't he?

Probably Thraco-Roman.

[Era]

Probably Thraco-Roman.

No Bagot he was Illyrian. Read my posts. Google Marcellinu's chronicles, another Illyrian who wrote his official chronicles.
And lol at Slavic, they hadn't arrived in Illyricum yet at the time. They were still in Siberia lol

https://books.google.com/books?id=jQTVaxwfjsIC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=marcellinus+illyrian&source=bl&ots=C1lM_gjo8y&sig=LBhZs5uirCA8yKCzNzuh8IbrHvM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCGoVChMI9uLk_a-LxwIVgaYeCh35IQD8#v=onepage&q=marcellinus%20illyrian&f=false

[Bagot]

No Bagot he was Illyrian. Read my posts. Google Marcellinu's chronicles, another Illyrian who wrote his official chronicles.
And lol at Slavic, they hadn't arrived in Illyricum yet at the time. They were still in Siberia lol

https://books.google.com/books?id=jQTVaxwfjsIC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=marcellinus+illyrian&source=bl&ots=C1lM_gjo8y&sig=LBhZs5uirCA8yKCzNzuh8IbrHvM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCGoVChMI9uLk_a-LxwIVgaYeCh35IQD8#v=onepage&q=marcellinus%20illyrian&f=false

I think you're right.