Nordid Origins in Poland?

[BiałaZemsta]

What are the Nordid origins in Poland? Is the Nordid phenotype a trait blended from Norse and Teutonic invasion? Is it from East Nordic peoples who moved south? Or could it be from Finnic and Baltic people? This question just started eating away at me and I would really like to know. Thanks.

[Loki]

What are the Nordid origins in Poland? Is the Nordid phenotype a trait blended from Norse and Teutonic invasion? Is it from East Nordic peoples who moved south? Or could it be from Finnic and Baltic people? This question just started eating away at me and I would really like to know. Thanks.

A combination of all of the above, I'd say.

[Mordid]

I believe that Nordid origin in Poland are Germanic, Celtic, Battle axe and Baltic.

[BiałaZemsta]

Correct me if I'm wrong but East Nordids are Norse Vikings that sailed eastwards into North Western Russia.

[Mordid]

Correct me if I'm wrong but East Nordids are Norse Vikings that sailed eastwards into North Western Russia.

I think East Nordid are Corded people but yeah Norse have east nordid pehotype because they carried a R1A gene.


Corded Ware ceramic forms in single graves develop earlier in Poland than in western and southern Central Europe.[5] The earliest radiocarbon dates for Corded Ware come from Kujavia and Małopolska in central and southern Poland and point to the period around 3,000 BC. Carbon-14 dating of the remaining central European regions shows that Corded Ware appeared after 2880 B.C.[6] It spread to the Lüneburger Heide and then further to the North European Plain, Rhineland, Switzerland, Scandinavia, the Baltic region and Russia to Moscow, where the culture met with the pastoralists considered indigenous to the steppes.

That's interesting.

[Osweo]

The Slavs themselves, from their earliest inception, had a nordid element to them. There's no need to go looking elsewhere to 'explain' such types in the Polish population, except as mere addition to what was already there. Central Europe was and is no stranger to such types.

[BiałaZemsta]

The Slavs themselves, from their earliest inception, had a nordid element to them. There's no need to go looking elsewhere to 'explain' such types in the Polish population, except as mere addition to what was already there. Central Europe was and is no stranger to such types.

That is what I first thought. On other forums, I've encountered Germanic people claiming the Nordids in Poland as their own. I wanted to see if there was any truth in this.

[Loki]

The Slavs themselves, from their earliest inception, had a nordid element to them. There's no need to go looking elsewhere to 'explain' such types in the Polish population, except as mere addition to what was already there. Central Europe was and is no stranger to such types.

Of course. However, there is no denying the massive impact that Germanic incursions into the area had even since the Goths (and possibly before).

[Guapo]

Wtf? Sub-racial types are older than any meta-ethnicity so stop claiming who belongs to what.

[Mordid]

Mostly of Slavic origin. The proto-Slavs were of Corded (East) Nordic phenotype.

The Cephalic Index in Poland was actually less than 77 until the late middle ages. Then it went up to as much as 84, but is now at around 80 in teenagers across most of the country.

No one really knows the reason for the fluctuations, but it happened all over Europe to some degree, with the areas least affected being on the periphery of Central Europe - Iberia, UK, Scandinavia, etc

[Guapo]

Mostly of Slavic origin. The proto-Slavs were of Corded (East) Nordic phenotype.

I don't think they were all uniform.

sTmeyOxBjfU




The Cephalic Index in Poland was actually less than 77 until the late middle ages. Then it went up to as much as 84, but is now at around 80 in teenagers across most of the country.

No one really knows the reason for the fluctuations, but it happened all over Europe to some degree, with the areas least affected being on the periphery of Central Europe - Iberia, UK, Scandinavia, etc

The shape of the head, like height, can vary with the diet. Children born during a long northern winter are deprived of sunlight during the early months of their lives. Unless they are given cod liver oil or some form of vitamin preparation, they are apt to be lacking in Vitamin D. When this happens, the children suffer from a disease known as rickets, in which bones do not harden properly. The too soft skulls of such children may then become misshapen from the pressure of the cradle, and skull measurements in later life won't mean much.

[nisse]

The shape of the head, like height, can vary with the diet. Children born during a long northern winter are deprived of sunlight during the early months of their lives. Unless they are given cod liver oil or some form of vitamin preparation, they are apt to be lacking in Vitamin D. When this happens, the children suffer from a disease known as rickets, in which bones do not harden properly. The too soft skulls of such children may then become misshapen from the pressure of the cradle, and skull measurements in later life won't mean much.

That is an interesting suggestion...other vitamins (such as vit C) also play a role in bone development. Although this is not likely to be a problem now, I wonder if there would have been a detectable pattern of cranial shape metrics depending on birth month when nutritional supplements and healthy diets were not as ubiquitously available.

[Pallantides]

I bet there are more Nordids in Poland than in Norway.

[esaima]

I bet there are more Nordids in Poland than in Norway.
I think Pallantides himself does not look stereotypically Nordid but are Norwegians generally less Nordid than Poles- i don´t know.

[Pallantides]

I think Pallantides himself does not look stereotypically Nordid but are Norwegians generally less Nordid than Poles- i don´t know.

I have never been to Poland so I don't know if they are more "Nordid" than Norwegians or not, but from visiting various Anthro and Racialist boards you would think all Poles and Russians are Nordid, while everyone else who diverge from this are either mixed tatars or gypsies.

[Äike]

I have never been to Poland so I don't know if they are more "Nordid" than Norwegians or not, but from visiting various Anthro and Racialist boards you would think all Poles and Russians are Nordid, while everyone else who diverge from this are either mixed tatars or gypsies.

The Nordid "heartland" should be in SW-Sweden and SE-Norway. Still, Nordids aren't meant for Northern-Europe in an evolutionary sense and they aren't a majority in any Northern-European countries, as far as I know.

Btw, if you look at Russian members of TA, then the majority are Baltid :p

[Peasant]

I have never been to Poland so I don't know if they are more "Nordid" than Norwegians or not, but from visiting various Anthro and Racialist boards you would think all Poles and Russians are Nordid, while everyone else who diverge from this are either mixed tatars or gypsies.

Because everyone wants to think of themselves as the Nordid Übermensch:(

[nisse]

Btw, if you look at Russian members of TA, then the majority are Baltid :p

Isn't Baltid a mixed Nordic/CM type?

[Pallantides]

The Nordid "heartland" should be in SW-Sweden and SE-Norway. Still, Nordids aren't meant for Northern-Europe in an evolutionary sense and they aren't a majority in any Northern-European countries, as far as I know.

Btw, if you look at Russian members of TA, then the majority are Baltid :p


The areas wich have had the most Finnish immigrants.:)

Finnish settlements in Norway and Sweden, 1686
http://195.159.218.27/nyenordmenn/nettustillinger/NF_ML/4/finner/img/finnner1.gif


Today the Forest Finns are fully assimilated into the Norwegian and Swedish societies and their language extinct, but their culture lives on in both countries and a number of place names commemorates the Finnish origin. They are defined as a national minority in Norway, and it is estimated that a couple of hundred thousand Norwegians are descendants of the original Forest Finns.
Forest Finns are a distinct group from Kven people, who live in the Northern Norwegian counties of Troms and Finnmark, although they both originate from Finland.

[Äike]

Isn't Baltid a mixed Nordic/CM type?

Baltids are borealized Cro-Magnons.

Cro-Magnon->West-Baltid(slightly colder climate)->Baltid(quite cold)->East-Baltid(extreme/Arctic climate, thus extreme borealization)

[Guapo]

Isn't Baltid a mixed Nordic/CM type?

Or they ca just be shorter brachycephalic(flat head syndrome can make your eyes look squinty too) nordids due to to diets.

[Curtis24]

The original Slavic-speaking peoples are described as being highly Nordid by Coon. They are also described by medieval historians as being blonde. So all Slavic speaking countries experienced an invasion of Nordids originally, who are responsible for spreading Slavic languages and culture.

However, Nordicism in most Slavic-countries was then eventually depleted - through a combination of Nordids being subsumed into the local population, as well as selective pressures such as disease and wars which favored Alpinids and Baltids. Keep in mind also that the original Slavic invaders probably only made a small proportion of the population of the areas they conquered.

Here, read this by Agrippa(its about Alpinids and Alpinisation):





Quote:
3) Why are there so many Alpinids in Central Europe, when(according to Coon) that area was mostly Nordid right up til the Fall of the Roman Empire?

Because they could only spread peacefully, under the protection of rules and laws, kept up by more dominant groups in their own areas. Alpinisation was the trend of the slow but steady Alpinisation of the hungry, suppressed, one sided working and living, constantly sick & suffering farmers, among which people with Alpinoid traits seem to have a higher reproductive rate.

You can see that with those going to the cities, those becoming priests or mercenaries, insurgents or the like, those which had stronger progressive-dominant tendencies, even if they survived the hard childhood in the villages, were less likely to have more children, in the end and this dysgenic trends worked on the common people in particular many generations - with the great emigration waves and modern mass wars afterwards...

In the end, the Alpinid farmer which was just staying at home and underwent everything which came, without doing or changing too much, got more children which survived.

As I said, before the Medieval Times, Alpinisation was at various times stopped or even reverted, especially when higher individual and group selection became more active again, when we see times of movements, herder-farmer warriors, wars, clan organisation and the like (f.e. Germanic and early Slavic expansion). Its similar to gracilisation vs. degracilisation in a certain way.

.......................................
Alpinid and Baltid specialisation means efficiency, survival with lower risks and effectiveness, but by being able to withstand the bad times to come - more by "sitting it out" rather than "fighting it out" so to say...

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17339

[Mordid]

I would say 95% Norse and Tuetonic invasion, but of course a little of the rest too. Pretty much just a bunch of Slavic, Germanic and/or Viking invasions caused it.

[Pallantides]

Isn't eastern Poland the urheimat for the Corded Ware culture?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/e/eb/20050813184935!Corded_Ware_culture.png

[Mordid]

Isn't eastern Poland the urheimat for the Corded Ware culture?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/e/eb/20050813184935!Corded_Ware_culture.png

No. Germany but Poland have more R1A DNA more than Germany population. :rolleyes:

R1 would be asscociated with Corded ware culture.

[d3cimat3d]

Germanic people from the west and Slavic people from the east = Poland.
I would say it's 33.3% Germanic & 66.6% Slavic. Also there is definitely some traces of the Wielbark culture left over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture

[Monolith]

Germanic people from the west and Slavic people from the east = Poland.
I would say it's 33.3% Germanic & 66.6% Slavic.
I don't think so.

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/2866/60331430.png

I have attached two studies on this matter, and this one might be interesting as well:

Craniometric Relationships among Medieval Central European Populations (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4686&d=1273398332) (from this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=208474&postcount=12) thread)

It would appear the early Slavs in Poland were, biologically speaking, surprisingly homogeneous, which is reflected in their obvious biological continuity and craniometric similarity to other Slavic populations.

[MagnaLaurentia]

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/2866/60331430.png

Hum? What the colors mean?

[d3cimat3d]

I don't think so.

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/2866/60331430.png

I have attached two studies on this matter, and this one might be interesting as well:

Craniometric Relationships among Medieval Central European Populations (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4686&d=1273398332) (from this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=208474&postcount=12) thread)

It would appear the early Slavs in Poland were, biologically speaking, surprisingly homogeneous, which is reflected in their obvious biological continuity and craniometric similarity to other Slavic populations.

Bunch of bullshit. Prior the the arrival of the Slavs from their homeland in Belarus, Poland was full of various Germanic speaking people, many of them left during the migration period but that doesn't mean they didn't leave a genetic legacy.

[d3cimat3d]

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx70/MurderMaterial/Pre_Migration_Age_Germanic.png

[d3cimat3d]

which is reflected in their obvious biological continuity and craniometric similarity to other Slavic populations.

Craniometry is a pseudo-science.

[Agrippa]

Craniometry is a pseudo-science.

Why so? Pseudo-sciences are about things which can't be proven scientifically so to say or are at worst already disproven, Craniometry is just about measuring various aspects of the cranium/head and this is finally still in use for many, including forensic purposes.

As for the original question, like I was quoted already, the real question should be why there is no such clear dominance of leptodolichomorphic, Nordid and Mediterranid variants, in Poland any more.

Because almost since those variants existed in Europe, they were strong the country which is the state of Poland now and I personally even think that this area was not that unimportant for the development and spread of the Nordoid and Nordid-Mediterranid variants into areas further North and East.

So the question really is, why Nordids (and Mediterranids) are not as dominant now in the region as they were in the past, which has to be explained by Alpinisation, Dinarisation and Baltisation respectively, like quoted above.

Especially if considering, that those coming later to the region were mostly Nordoid too (early Germanics and Slavs), so there must have been a change, most likely combination of selection and modification.

Just compare with the samples from the Unetice culture, which dominated, ina similar composition, also in Poland:
After the Polish anthropologist B. Miszkiewicz, the typological composition of a Aunjetitz population of Tomice:

Keep in mind how difficult it partly is to distinguish Nordid from (especially North) Mediterranid if working with (especially poor) skeletal remains, the terminology is that of the Polish schools, for which Lapponoid = Alpinoid and Armenoid = Taurid in general:
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5258/aunjetiztomice2is.th.jpg (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aunjetiztomice2is.jpg)

Whats obvious is the practical absense, very low percentage for other elements - Nordomediterranid dominated this Corded influenced group obviously, Tomice deviated insofar from other Aunjetitzers since the Nordid element was stronger. The first value comes from an analysis of the average values, the 2nd from individual analysis. In other series of the Aunjetitz group is according to Miszkiewicz et al. the Nordid element weaker, the Cromagnid/Palaeeuropid higher (25-35 percent over time), the Mediterranid (or better Mediterranoid) is still dominant (50-55 percent). Dinaroid-Armenoid varies (Polish used Armenoid often for Dinarid too) at a high level with 10-20 percent over time.

The Nordid element seems to come rather from Corded groups and the Dinaroid from Bell Beakers.

The Aunjetitz/Unetice people were also relatively tall for their time and the "Mediterranean" being based mostly on rather gracile traits, could have been more gracile Nordomediterranids or Nordoids too (pigmentation crucial in the end...).

About the material culture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture

They were most likely Indoeuropeans and the later groups too were dominated by Nordid-Mediterranid variants...

Alpinisation and Baltisation became the strongest in the region just in Medieval Times.

[Monolith]

Bunch of bullshit. Prior the the arrival of the Slavs from their homeland in Belarus, Poland was full of various Germanic speaking people, many of them left during the migration period but that doesn't mean they didn't leave a genetic legacy.
Be sure to send an e-mail to the authors.

[MagnaLaurentia]

Deuxième tentative... :)



http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/2866/60331430.png

What the colors mean?

[Monolith]

Deuxième tentative... :)

.... et la deuxieme reponse:


check the 2nd study




Inspection of Fig. 1 suggests that the similarity of YSTR haplotypes decays much more rapidly along an east-west than a north-south gradient, at least in central Europe. This notion was formally corroborated by a MDS analysis of all pair-wise FST values. The first dimension, accounting for almost 89% of the variance (Table 1), clearly shows a decomposition of the European Y-STR genetic structure into three major components (Fig. 4a), closely corresponding to the ‘‘Western’’, ‘‘Central’’ and ‘‘Eastern’’ sub-clusters of Fig.

[MagnaLaurentia]

Hum... okay but I don't understand what the yellow color mean... You have yellow in Ireland and Finland... I'm confused!

[Guapo]

The yellow in Ireland is a pot o' gold, the one in Finland is a piss pot I guess.

[Mordid]

Nordid element in Poland is from before the medieval brachycephalic traits moved in. During the medieval period & after the medieval period to this very day widespread increases in brachycephalic skulls increased around Poland, Central & Eastern Europe.
While in Sweden there has not been an increase in brachycephalic traits since the medieval period & thus for this reason they remained more nordid. So Poles were largely nordid before brachycephalic skulls increased during & since the medieval period.

[MagnaLaurentia]

The yellow in Ireland is a pot o' gold, the one in Finland is a piss pot I guess.

LOL :rolleyes:

[Psychonaut]

Nordid element in Poland is from before the medieval brachycephalic traits moved in. During the medieval period & after the medieval period to this very day widespread increases in brachycephalic skulls increased around Poland, Central & Eastern Europe.
While in Sweden there has not been an increase in brachycephalic traits since the medieval period & thus for this reason they remained more nordid. So Poles were largely nordid before brachycephalic skulls increased during & since the medieval period.

...and this is based on what study? Got a link?

[d3cimat3d]

...and this is based on what study? Got a link?

Just the observations of Carlton S. Coon.


Well-documented series from Bohemia and the Moscow government show how this change progressed from century to century, so that normal means of a cephalic index of 73 to 75 rose as high as 83 by the nineteenth century. Few Slavs were spared this change, which was parallel to that which affected the southern Germans and other peoples of central and eastern Europe. Although it took place in the full light of late medieval and modern history, no one fully satisfactory explanation has yet been offered.

Source (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI7.htm)

[Agrippa]

Just the observations of Carlton S. Coon.



Source (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI7.htm)

As well as others, this is just the evidence of the Alpinisation, Baltisation and Dinarisation respectively, as this change was accompanied by other traits being changed too.

Brachycranisation in the West vs. East:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5405&stc=1&d=1280487055

[lei.talk]

Baltids (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#baltic) are borealized (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#BOREALIZATION) Cro-Magnons (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#Crô-Magnon).

Cro-Magnon (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#Crô-Magnon)->West-Baltid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss2.htm#west-baltid) (slightly colder climate)->Baltid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#baltic) (quite cold)->East-Baltid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#east-baltid) (extreme/Arctic climate, thus extreme borealization (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#BOREALIZATION))

http://i27.tinypic.com/21l1zlx.png (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/rg-list.htm)

BALTID (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/rg-baltid.htm) (Osteuropid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/map-eickstedt-eur.jpg) (v. Eickstedt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egon_Freiherr_von_Eickstedt)))

Balticized (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#balticization) northeastern European Cro-Magnoid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#cro-magnoid) (East-Cro-Magnid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#east-cro-magnid)). Baltid (proper) assumes an intermediate position between mostly unreduced (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss2.htm#REDUCTION), only slightly balticized (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#balticization) and fully Europid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#europid) forms (West-Baltids (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss2.htm#west-baltid)) and more fully balticized (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#balticization) and Lappoid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#lappoid)-influenced forms (East-Baltids (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#east-baltid)) in a continuum or cline (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#cline) which, in a broader and rougher sense, delineates the transition from Cro-Magnoid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#cro-magnoid) to Lappoid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#lappoid) in northeastern Europe. The term may denote the entire range, and is used interchangeably for mostly un-balticized (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#balticization) West-Baltids (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss2.htm#west-baltid) as well as strongly Lappoid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#lappoid)-influenced East-Baltids (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#east-baltid).
*

[Äike]

As well as others, this is just the evidence of the Alpinisation, Baltisation and Dinarisation respectively, as this change was accompanied by other traits being changed too.

Brachycranisation in the West vs. East:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5405&stc=1&d=1280487055

This is quite logical as Eastern-Europe is more north and colder than Western-Europe. Estonians on average live more north than the majority of Scots. I personally live more north than the inhabitants of the Orkney islands.

You can find NE-Europeans who could pass as natives in Ireland and you can find Irishmen who could pass as natives in some NE-European countries.

If Western- and Eastern Europe would be at the same latitude, let's imagine that Ireland would be as north as Finland and slightly larger, then you could find people similar to East-Baltids in Ireland. In my opinion, some Irishmen could pass as West-Baltids.

[Agrippa]

This is quite logical as Eastern-Europe is more north and colder than Western-Europe. Estonians on average live more north than the majority of Scots. I personally live more north than the inhabitants of the Orkney islands.

You can find NE-Europeans who could pass as natives in Ireland and you can find Irishmen who could pass as natives in some NE-European countries.

If Western- and Eastern Europe would be at the same latitude, let's imagine that Ireland would be as north as Finland and slightly larger, then you could find people similar to East-Baltids in Ireland. In my opinion, some Irishmen could pass as West-Baltids.

But that's not the point because for quite some time Eastern Europe was on average as long or even longer headed than the West! It is just that in certain parts of Central and Eastern Europe selective and modificational processes started, especially in the Medieval Age, which favoured reduced-pyknomorphic-infantile variants.

There were many factors involved, climate was just one of it, but the absense of higher level individual and group selection, bad nutrition/malnutrition, diseases and plagues, social dependence and very immobile, sedentary lifestyle were far more important it seems, because in earlier times, the same climate didn't produce such a Baltisation and Alpinisation.

So we can say that certain habitats were just worse for the survival of the progressive leptodolichomorphic Europids in comparison to others. That's what this really shows, poor peasants in the inland and under unfavourable conditions tend to become shorter, more child-like, shorter ranged, brachycephalic, shorter faced, etc.

In Estonia f.e., both because of the original leptodolichomorphic (Neolithic-Indoeuropean) expansions and the living conditions, those which live more Western, closer to the coast, tend to be more leptodolichomorphic and progressive than those in the inland, which are more often survivors of the hunger-gatherer forest people and more hunger-cold adapted.

After I. Schwidetzky:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5406&stc=1&d=1280490249

The more progressive variants entered from Mesolithic times onward in particular the North Eastern areas and began to dominate it, even more so after the Neolithic and most important Indoeuropean expansions. But they usually took over the most favourable areas for their way of life, just pushing others aside, like the river areas, coasts, flat fertile lands etc. Sooner or later intermixture with the local - often archaic Cromagnoids - groups took place.

But the numbers became pretty stable and the Cromagnoids too were not that brachycephalic or reduced - only regionally. That the numbers changed drastically and the brachycephaly and reduced-infantile traits increased dramatically is really a later phenomenon among the poor-dependent peasantry...

Even in the 15th century the borderline was more clear cut and genetically both Finland and Estonia have a South-North / West-East divide reflecting the components varying influences to a certain degree at least.

Westbaltids are in my opinion rather Cromagnoid anyway and also not that reduced-infantilised, so they are "more original" and less typical for the typical Baltised peasant-variants.

Westbaltid and Borreby-Dalofaelid variants show often great similarities in my opinion and Westbaltids tend to be - individually at least - being more progressive than average Borreby even probably...

[Äike]

But that's not the point because for quite some time Eastern Europe was on average as long or even longer headed than the West! It is just that in certain parts of Central and Eastern Europe selective and modificational processes started, especially in the Medieval Age, which favoured reduced-pyknomorphic-infantile variants.

There were many factors involved, climate was just one of it, but the absense of higher level individual and group selection, bad nutrition/malnutrition, diseases and plagues, social dependence and very immobile, sedentary lifestyle were far more important it seems, because in earlier times, the same climate didn't produce such a Baltisation and Alpinisation.

So we can say that certain habitats were just worse for the survival of the progressive leptodolichomorphic Europids in comparison to others. That's what this really shows, poor peasants in the inland and under unfavourable conditions tend to become shorter, more child-like, shorter ranged, brachycephalic, shorter faced, etc.

In Estonia f.e., both because of the original leptodolichomorphic (Neolithic-Indoeuropean) expansions and the living conditions, those which live more Western, closer to the coast, tend to be more leptodolichomorphic and progressive than those in the inland, which are more often survivors of the hunger-gatherer forest people and more hunger-cold adapted.

After I. Schwidetzky:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5406&stc=1&d=1280490249

The more progressive variants entered from Mesolithic times onward in particular the North Eastern areas and began to dominate it, even more so after the Neolithic and most important Indoeuropean expansions. But they usually took over the most favourable areas for their way of life, just pushing others aside, like the river areas, coasts, flat fertile lands etc. Sooner or later intermixture with the local - often archaic Cromagnoids - groups took place.

But the numbers became pretty stable and the Cromagnoids too were not that brachycephalic or reduced - only regionally. That the numbers changed drastically and the brachycephaly and reduced-infantile traits increased dramatically is really a later phenomenon among the poor-dependent peasantry...

Even in the 15th century the borderline was more clear cut and genetically both Finland and Estonia have a South-North / West-East divide reflecting the components varying influences to a certain degree at least.

It really doesn't matter who settled in Western- or Eastern-Estonia. There's an anthropological divide between the two areas, mostly because of climatic reasons in my opinion. SE-Estonia has the coldest temperatures in the winter and Western-Estonia has the warmest temperatures.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Floristic_regions_in_Europe_%28english%29.png/751px-Floristic_regions_in_Europe_%28english%29.png


Westbaltids are in my opinion rather Cromagnoid anyway and also not that reduced-infantilised, so they are "more original" and less typical for the typical Baltised peasant-variants.

Westbaltid and Borreby-Dalofaelid variants show often great similarities in my opinion and Westbaltids tend to be - individually at least - being more progressive than average Borreby even probably...

This must be one of the reasons why Finns are anthropologically the most Cro-Magnon people in Europe.

[Agrippa]

It really doesn't matter who settled in Western- or Eastern-Estonia. There's an anthropological divide between the two areas, mostly because of climatic reasons in my opinion. SE-Estonia has the coldest temperatures in the winter and Western-Estonia has the warmest temperatures.

Climate and nutrition played a big role in this case too, but might I remind you that the leptodolichomorphic/long headed progressive Europids made it up further North East, much further, originally - the climate changed over time and so did the way of life and selective regime.

I might remind you on the Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatyanovo-Balanovo_culture), a related Corded Ware group, which dominant elements were still Nordoid/Nordoid-Mediterranid/progressive dolichocephals (including Kurgan-type/Cromagnid).

Also compare:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Corded_Ware_culture.png

http://a.imageshack.us/img199/8702/theareaofthepamariancordedware.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/theareaofthepamariancordedware.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

1. Pamarian culture,
2. Upper Dnieper culture,
3. Fatyanovo culture,
4. Balanovo culture.
Arrows show the directions of the Indoeuropean spreading.

Compare:
http://forum.stirpes.net/physical-anthropology/6099-reconstructions-maps-early-east-nordids-east-cromagnids.html

Balanovo had already somewhat more "foreign" elements in comparison to the other groups, but this still shows the magnitude of the expansion.

[Erik]

But I am sure that in Russia the increase of cephalic indices has been caused
by Mongolish and Tatarian immigrants. See the black eyes and hair of the
Russian. Why did the increase of the cephalic indices not happened in Sweden
and Norway?

[Agrippa]

But I am sure that in Russia the increase of cephalic indices has been caused
by Mongolish and Tatarian immigrants. See the black eyes and hair of the
Russian. Why did the increase of the cephalic indices not happened in Sweden
and Norway?

First of all, the Russians are not that darker and being dark is no secure Mongoloid marker.

It is primarily caused by selective and modificational forces among the peasantry, the main Mongoloid influence is older and presumably of Finno-Ugrian origin for the most part and related to the yDNA Haplogroup N, Lappid (core group) and Eastbaltid.

But also Westbaltid and Baltid variants, Norids and Alpinids in Russia exist, all became brachycephalised and all of them are just Europids, so Mongoloid admixture doesnt explain that nor is it the cause.

In some areas of Sweden and Norway the Nordoid and generally longheaded elements decreased too anyway, remember the Alpinoid-Borreby variants in particular and even the fact, that a large portion of the more archaic Mesolithic Cromagnoids of the North was already brachycephalis and was pushed away by more progressive newcomers, especially in the Neolithic to Metal Age period, with a strong proportion being most likely of Indo-European origin.

[Tomasz]

As we're talking about Nordids in Poland, I have related question. Which Nordid sub-type majority of Polish Nordids represent? Skandonordid or East-Nordid?

If Polish Nordids are mainly remnats of "Slavic Nordids" or "Corded Nordids" then, I guess, they should be rather East-Nordid sub-type. But if they're primarily descended from Teutonic invaders, then they should rather show Skandonordid traits.

[Agrippa]

My personal impression is that they are more often Eastnordid than Skandonordid, though both is well represented - probably Norid-like variants exceed both in some areas.

[Tomasz]

Yes, I completely agree. Some people tend to think that Poles are some sort of short, broad nosed, Coon's "Neo-Danubians" (even if such race doesn't exist). But it's as far from the truth, as possible. Honestly, I rarely see such person in Poland.

People living in northern Poland and Vistula valley are very often Nordid. Osteuropid element is not as numerous, as many people think. Or maybe it's my region, which is lacking in Baltid types (only in villages, many people show such racial traits). From brachycephals, Alpines and Dinarids are far more pronounced. Especially latter type very often mixes with Nordids, creating such "Norid" hybrids. To sum it up - Poles are generally taller and more often show nasal convexity than it's commonly thought.

Back to the topic: if my logic is right, then Polish Nordid substrate seem to be both of "Corded" and Teutonic affilation. At least judging by presence of both Skando- and East- sub-types.

[Husaria]

What are the Nordid origins in Poland? Is the Nordid phenotype a trait blended from Norse and Teutonic invasion? Is it from East Nordic peoples who moved south? Or could it be from Finnic and Baltic people? This question just started eating away at me and I would really like to know. Thanks.

That is GerMANIC propaganda.

Nordics were in Poland & Other Slavic nations before they were even in Scandanavia.

[Husaria]

Bunch of bullshit. Prior the the arrival of the Slavs from their homeland in Belarus, Poland was full of various Germanic speaking people, many of them left during the migration period but that doesn't mean they didn't leave a genetic legacy.

LOL. Germans aren't very Germanic themselves. Germans aren't very high in I1 haplogroup.

I1 haplogroup is highest in East Germany at 19.5 percent
& yet East Germany is 24 percent R1a (Like Slavs)

While North Germany is 23 percent R1a & 18 percent I1 haplogroup.

Poland has low I haplogroup & Quite low R1b Haplogroup.

Germans are just a mix between Slavs & Western Europeans LOL

Some studies put Germany as high as 30 percent R1a.

So, Germans have alot more Slavic genes than the inverse. Germans mass assimilated slavic Polabians, Sorbs, Poles, Czechs ect & they became German but still had Slavic genes.-

[Lisa]

I think in Poland there is no real Nordid or very little (0.1%), only Noriks, Gorids and Baltids. :rolleyes:

[Lisa]

Mostly of Slavic origin. The proto-Slavs were of Corded (East) Nordic phenotype.

The Cephalic Index in Poland was actually less than 77 until the late middle ages. Then it went up to as much as 84, but is now at around 80 in teenagers across most of the country.

No one really knows the reason for the fluctuations, but it happened all over Europe to some degree, with the areas least affected being on the periphery of Central Europe - Iberia, UK, Scandinavia, etc

I know other information - 82.7 for Poland. In 1933 - 85.5. In 1971 - 84.6... :coffee:

[Mordid]

I think in Poland there is no real Nordid or very little (0.1%), only Noriks, Gorids and Baltids. :rolleyes:

Nordids does exist among Poles, but they are often mixed with other type especially Baltid. Norid/West Baltid are the most common among Poles.

[Mordid]

I know other information - 82.7 for Poland. In 1933 - 85.5. In 1971 - 84.6... :coffee:

You're the most annoying Russki person I've ever met. :rolleyes:

[Husaria]

Nordids does exist among Poles, but they are often mixed with other type especially Baltid. Norid/West Baltid are the most common among Poles.

That is true everywhere. At least with Halstatt & Corded Nordics.

Even Scandanavian Halstatt Nordics are generally mixed with Bruenns, Baltids, Borreby, Tronder ect.


There are enough Pure Nordics in Sweden. But, In reality more of them are mixed with CM.

[Mordid]

That is true everywhere. At least with Halstatt & Corded Nordics.
From my personal experience, Poles are often much more East Nordids than Hallstatt Nordids. Norid might be dinaricised old Slavs (East Nordid), so Norids Poles were East Nordid and become Dinaricised in later time.


Even Scandanavian Halstatt Nordics are generally mixed with Bruenns, Baltids, Borreby, Tronder ect.
Exactly my point.

[Norb]

bump

[The Blade]

Both Slavs and Germanics influenced the Nordic types among Poles. Slavs also carried a Baltid strain.

[Ülev]

bump for fun

[Ülev]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?254352-Learn-to-read-the-race-maps-OR-Poland-isn-t-Nordid

[Crimean]

Why not?
Poland is just in the logical center of the Nordids area.

[Krivich]

Why not?
Poland is just in the logical center of the Nordids area.

To be a Nordid is cool, and Alpinid are not very cool. And these are rules invented by the Alpinid reference Hitler. In fact, all described phenotypes are very controversial. And their existence is in question. Nordid is even in the Asian races. Example
https://d.radikal.ru/d40/1808/46/6e9b98136977.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

[Crimean]

To be a Nordid is cool, and Alpinid are not very cool. And these are rules invented by the Alpinid reference Hitler. In fact, all described phenotypes are very controversial. And their existence is in question. Nordid is even in the Asian races.
You're exaggerating the scale of the problem.
In Poland, the influence of Alpinid goes only from the south, from the other three sides Nordid + Baltid.
Poles on average are not darker than Russians and Ukrainians.

[Krivich]

You're exaggerating the scale of the problem.
In Poland, the influence of Alpinid goes only from the south, from the other three sides Nordid + Baltid.
Poles on average are not darker than Russians and Ukrainians.
Ukrainians are much darker than Russians. by the level of pigmentation they are approaching the southern Europeans. Poles and Belarusians are slightly darker than Russians because of the southern alignment. But we are not talking about blonde hair, but about the phenotype of Nordid. He even exists in Asian races - among Tatars, Chuvashes, Udmurts, etc. D. I think that the classification of the phenotypes that they exist today is an anachronism and an outdated technique.

[Silver Lining]

Most Poles look like this:

https://www.noz.de/media/2015/11/25/261115-marek-fis_201511251534_full.jpg

Box-y head, ash-blond, sparse hair, soft facial features, skinny-fat body, moderately broad shouldered, straight and small noses. It's a "centralized type" (something like this emerges everywhere in Europe) that mixes Alpine, Osteuropid, and some Med/Nordic/Dinaric. 1000 years ago it may have been different.