Italians

[Rasvalg]

I couldn't decide where to start this thread so here it is. It was suggested to me after one of my recent posts to begin a thread dealing with others views on whether or not Italians are white.
So that being said here it is. I will not run this as a poll more just put down your opinion and let us see where this goes. Now guys and gals keep it civil please. I personally believe that Italians are just as white as the rest of the European population and have some good friends who die and have given up there lives to defend that ideal. But not everyone believes that way so again please keep it civil and debate your point of view.
Thanks and have fun with this thread it should be interesting.:D

[Loki]

I couldn't decide where to start this thread so here it is. It was suggested to me after one of my recent posts to begin a thread dealing with others views on whether or not Italians are white.
So that being said here it is. I will not run this as a poll more just put down your opinion and let us see where this goes. Now guys and gals keep it civil please. After some of you have posted I will way in with my opinion or for those of you who have seen my other post probably already know where I stand.
Thanks and have fun with this thread it should be interesting.:D

It's a loaded question, and a little ambiguous from scratch. Since Italians are quite diverse historically, and the northern half very different from the south, the question could equally have been: "Are Europeans white?".

These kind of threads can be fun, as a display of various sorts of ignorance. Yet the very term "white" is ambiguous and subjective in itself. "White" means different things to different people.

To the Apricity, Italians are Europeans. This is a forum which concerns itself with European preservation, and as such, Italians are important and welcome to participate here.

[Pino]

well yes, although there are a hell of alot of Italians that are mixed race.

I dont know whether you can say Italy is a White country but there are defiantely White people in Italy.

[TheGreatest]

You know why I dislike Italians? Because they had no regard for the United States and Canada. Since the 1950's, Italians have been the fastest growing ethnic group next to Hispanic and Blacks.


- Different Cultural Values (no such things as manners in the Italian peninsula)
- They all seem obsessed with Catholicism, the Mafia and Mama.
- They are much darker and shorter than our people. They also love to spike up their hair with gel
- They think since they're ''White'' (:rolleyes:), this give them perfect right to run after our women.


Italians and Greeks are two groups that have long been considered ''mixed'' and Un-European in the eyes of most. It was common for parents to teach their children to not marry Italians, because they are ''Catholics'' (This was coming from my Grandmother who is Catholic.)


Reminds me of an Italian on Skadi who posted a picture of his country men, exclaiming them to be White. I looked in confusion and pointed out that almost all of them were brown, short and looked like Arabs, with only a small number being acceptable by Central European standards


And than of course that's all CHEESE ON THE TOPPING. Once you start talking to an Italian most of them WILL boggle down to a rant about them creating civilization and the Roman Empire (never mind that we have mountains of evidence suggesting that Romans are not the same as modern day Italians)

[Vulpix]

Anyone with any knowledge about Italy is aware that Northerners vs. Southerners is a necessary distinction when discussing Italians.

As for white? What is white? Each of us probably has a different definition of who is white or not ;).

[TheGreatest]

As anyone with any knowledge about Italy is aware of, the North vs. South is a necessary distinction when discussing Italians.

As for white? What is white? Each of us probably has a different definition of who is white or not ;).

LOL North vs. South divide... This isn't the Medieval Ages! Millions of Southern Italians went to the factories in Tyrol and Milan during industrialization.

[Loki]

Reminds me of an Italian on Skadi who posted a picture of his country men, exclaiming them to be White. I looked in confusion and pointed out that almost all of them were brown, short and looked like Arabs, with only a small number being acceptable by Central European standards


Have you ever been to Italy? I went to Rome about two years ago ... and I was amazed that the average modern Roman was nowhere near as swarthy as all these internet nazis tried to make Italians out to be. Do yourself a favour and buy a ticket.

[Loyalist]

I don't share in the view that Italians are European, caucasian, white, or whichever other term applies to your particular school of thought on the matter. Italians today are the products of a millenia of miscegenation with Moors, Phoenicians, Negroes, and numerous other non-European groups. Their physical appearance alone demonstrates how racially bastardized these people are, without taking into consideration the multitudes of scientific data, as well as historical evidence of migration and conquests, which supports this notion. Racial matters aside, Italians also demonstrate an inherent penchant for criminality, deceitfullness, and, perhaps most of all, laziness. These undesirable traits are also amplified by the fact that they are generally arrogant, overly-emotional, and violent. From a colonial point of view, they are a greater detriment to the preservation of people of Northern European stock than any Asian or African will ever be.

From a late 19th century New Orleans newspaper, reporting on the aftermath of the murder of David Hennessy:


The little jail was crowded with Sicilians, whose low, receding foreheads, repulsive countenances and slovenly attire proclaimed their brutal nature.

[Vulpix]

LOL North vs. South divide... This isn't the Medieval Ages!

Medieval Ages :confused:?
Ask any Italian (not Italoamerican) if they think there is no difference between the Northern part of Italy and the Southern bits, in terms of ethnicity, culture, etc.


Millions of Southern Italians went to the factories in Tyrol and Milan during industrialization.

Yes, and they are still emigrating to the North, since they are not doing too well economically down there :rolleyes:...

[Æmeric]

The Italians who came to the US were mostly from Sicily & the lower end of the boot. Many, but not all, look mixed at at least alien compared to Europeans of Northwestern European stock. Take the cast of the Sopranos (http://www.hbo.com/sopranos/cast/) as an example. Most of the main characters were played by Italian-Americans. And then there is the real life Gotti clan:


http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/socialdiary/2006/03_27_06/images/JVCGottiAgnello_031806_2.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Pix_Anon/RealityTV/But%20Can%20They%20Sing/gotti2.jpg
http://www.glamorati.com/celebrity/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/frank-gotti-agnello.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/crime/1/0/h/c/gotti_john_jr.jpg


These are the kind of people who give Anglo-Germanic Americans their impression of what Italians are like racially & culturally.

Btw, many Italians in the US are proud of the Mafia culture & Guido image, they just don't like Waspish people discussing it. In the same way White people aren't suppose to talk about the shortcomings of Negroes or use the dreaded n-word.

[TheGreatest]

Have you ever been to Italy? I went to Rome about two years ago ... and I was amazed that the average modern Roman was nowhere near as swarthy as all these internet nazis tried to make Italians out to be. Do yourself a favour and buy a ticket.

Yes I have been to Italy (and Rome) multiple times

[TheGreatest]

The Italians who came to the US were mostly from Sicily & the lower end of the boot. Many, but not all, look mixed at at least alien compared to Europeans of Northwestern European stock. Take the cast of the Sopranos (http://www.hbo.com/sopranos/cast/) as an example. Most of the main characters were played by Italian-Americans. And then there is the real life Gotti clan:


http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/socialdiary/2006/03_27_06/images/JVCGottiAgnello_031806_2.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Pix_Anon/RealityTV/But%20Can%20They%20Sing/gotti2.jpg
http://www.glamorati.com/celebrity/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/frank-gotti-agnello.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/crime/1/0/h/c/gotti_john_jr.jpg


These are the kind of people who give Anglo-Germanic Americans their impression of what Italians are like racially & culturally.

Btw, many Italians in the US are proud of the Mafia culture & Guido image, they just don't like Waspish people discussing it. In the same way White people aren't suppose to talk about the shortcomings of Negroes or use the dreaded n-word.

These are the Italians I see all the time in the US, Canada and Europe. Almost everyone I saw in Italy was dark and looked ''Mediterranean'' (mixed)

I did run into people who looked convincingly European, asked them who they were and all of them were migrant workers from France, Central and Eastern Europe.

[Loki]

The Italians who came to the US were mostly from Sicily & the lower end of the boot. Many, but not all, look mixed at at least alien compared to Europeans of Northwestern European stock. Take the cast of the Sopranos (http://www.hbo.com/sopranos/cast/) as an example. Most of the main characters were played by Italian-Americans. And then there is the real life Gotti clan:

These are the kind of people who give Anglo-Germanic Americans their impression of what Italians are like racially & culturally.



Yes ... and I think one should draw a distinction here. Italo-Americans cannot be held forward as prime examples of Italians in Europe. Italians north of Rome are mostly of Central European stock, not much different from southern Germans, Austrians and Frenchmen.

[TheGreatest]

Yes ... and I think one should draw a distinction here. Italo-Americans cannot be held forward as prime examples of Italians in Europe. Italians north of Rome are mostly of Central European stock, not much different from southern Germans, Austrians and Frenchmen.

And so is Obama... half english that is :D

[Loyalist]

Yes ... and I think one should draw a distinction here. Italo-Americans cannot be held forward as prime examples of Italians in Europe. Italians north of Rome are mostly of Central European stock, not much different from southern Germans, Austrians and Frenchmen.

Here are some examples of people of mainland Italian birth or descent...

http://i36.tinypic.com/28cmv80.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2la39k9.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/214e3s.jpg

:rolleyes:

[Loki]

And so is Obama... half english that is :D

http://www.newizv.ru/images/photos/big/20050801214228_1-ruslana.jpg

Source (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1481)

:coffee:

[TheGreatest]

Already sent a nasty note to Loki.
I have ancestors from that part of Europe and I can testify that no one looks "not much different" (:rolleyes:) from an Italian.


And don't t call me the Nazi for pointing out that there is only a single Italy. There's no such thing as a Germanic Northern Italy. You're thinking the Medieval Ages (Holy Roman Empire) moreso than the modern period.
I already told you guys the demographics were compromised when millions of Sicilians headed North.


I've been to all the Central European Countries and Italy and I'm more than positive that they are a completely different people. I would had been killed if I walked up to a Swiss or a Bavarian and told them they looked Italian :p

[Loki]

Already sent a nasty note to Loki.


Yes, and if this was Skadi you would have been banned for sending nasty notes to the admin. But fortunately for you, it is not.

[TheGreatest]

http://www.newizv.ru/images/photos/big/20050801214228_1-ruslana.jpg

:coffee:

http://celebrities.deepthi.com/actors/images/Rowan-Atkinson.jpg

:thumb001:

[TheGreatest]

Yes, and if this was Skadi you would have been banned for sending nasty notes to the admin. But fortunately for you, it is not.

So? They've banned people for a lot less there

[Æmeric]

http://www.marriedtothesea.com/013107/its-my-turn-to-blow-the-drama-horn.gif

[TheGreatest]

Italian American
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2010/2371735544_34ccfbc4e5.jpg?v=0
''The Guy from Boston''

[Loki]

So? They've banned people for a lot less there

I know, I was almost banned today there for using a kitty avatar. :rolleyes:

http://www.theapricity.com/uploads_dir/smellycat.jpg

[Psychonaut]

Have you ever been to Italy? I went to Rome about two years ago ... and I was amazed that the average modern Roman was nowhere near as swarthy as all these internet nazis tried to make Italians out to be. Do yourself a favour and buy a ticket.

I'd like to echo this. I spent a few weeks in Rome and Florence and was surprised at how average everyone's pigmentation was. Hair and eyes were, naturally, predominately brown, but I was hardly awash in a sea of swarthyness. I too wonder how many of the Italian haters have ever set foot on the peninsula. Since I'm not a Yankee, I've never really been around Italian Americans, who I understand are mostly Sicilians, so my views are not at all geared towards them in particular, but towards Italians as a whole.

In my opinion, one of the absolute worst things you can do to gauge the racial composition of a nation is to cherry pick a bunch of pictures off of the internet. This will always be biased and is never representational of the region as a whole. A much better thing to do is look at broad scoped genetic surveys, like the two recent ones that are found at the Italy DNA Project (http://italydna.blogspot.com/).

Looking first at the mtDNA results, which is where most of the non-European origins would logically lie due to historical mating patterns, here's what we get:

H 43%
HV 2%
J 4%
J1 3%
J2 3%
K 6%
L 2%
M 1%
N1a 1%
N1b 1%
T 4%
T1 2%
T2 5%
T3 1%
T5 2%
U1a 3%
U2 1%
U3 3%
U4 2%
U5 3%
U6 1%
U7 2%
V 1%
W 2%
X 3%

Now, broadly speaking, the maternal haplogroups that are European are U, X, H, V, T, K, J, I and W. African maternal hapolgroups that occur in Italy include N, M, and L. So, by adding up the percentages, we see that African admixture in Italian mtDNA comes out to about 5%, with the remaining 95% being "white."

Moving on to paternal haplogroups we get these results:

E3b1a 11.6%
E3b1b 1.4%
E3b1c 0.5%
G2 8.7%
I1a 2.9%
I1b* 1.0%
I1b1 1.4%
I1b2 2.9%
J1 4.3%
J2a 15.9%
J2b 1.9%
K2 3.9%
L 1.0%
Q 1.0%
R1a 2.9%
R1b1b 1.0%
R1b1c 34.3%
R1b1c6 0.5%
R1b1c9 1.0%
R1b1c10 1.4%
R2 0.5%

Out of these, we have a handful that are distinctly non-European, but none that are African. Haplogroups K, L, Q, and R2 are Asian and account for 6.4% of Italian y-DNA. R1b variants, all of which are Western European account for 38.2%. Variants of E and J, which are broadly Mediterranean account for 33.3%.

So, while it becomes clear that there is some African admixture on the maternal side, and some near Eastern admixture on both sides, genetically the Italians are overwhelmingly of native European stock, albeit a mixture of Western and Mediterranean elements which, given their location, is to be expected.

[Beorn]

According to the Romans, they thought the Celts to be hideously pale and barbaric and uncivilised, whilst they thought the Egyptians to be beautiful and to possess exquisite darkened skin. Darker than their own.

The Italians look no more different than from the day they were Romans.

[Jägerstaffel]

Surely there can be found in Italy plenty of folks who would pass in other Europeon countries (and many who would most assuredly not).

For me, the difference between an Italian and a Central/Western/Northern Europeon is less about race and more about culture. I find Mediterranean culture foreign and unlike my own. They are not my kin, but I don't hate them in any way shape or form and do consider them Europeon (though majority not white, by my definition)

[Beorn]

Surely there can be found in Italy plenty of folks who would pass in other Europeon countries (and many who would most assuredly not).

Funny you say that, as my partner is an Irish woman and has dark hair and prominent features.
In Guernsey she would be forever confused as Italian or Spanish.

Guess what nationality of the customers she served always thought that? :D

[Hors]

Surely there can be found in Italy plenty of folks who would pass in other Europeon countries (and many who would most assuredly not).

For me, the difference between an Italian and a Central/Western/Northern Europeon is less about race and more about culture. I find Mediterranean culture foreign and unlike my own. They are not my kin, but I don't hate them in any way shape or form and do consider them Europeon (though majority not white, by my definition)

What is your culture, I wonder? :confused:

[Jägerstaffel]

Germanic.

[Hors]

Elaborate, please. Who and/or what represent it?

[Psychonaut]

Elaborate, please. Who and/or what represent it?

This thread is about Italians. Let's not derail it by going into Germanic and/or American culture, ok? That in and of itself would make for a great thread and should have its own space.

[Jägerstaffel]

Agreed, we weren't talking about me.

[Gooding]

FWIW, in my experience, Italians do tend to consider themselves white,although some Northern Italians consider themselves a bit more so than Neapolitans or Sicilians.I would consider them Mediterranids.

[Brynhild]

I'm not at all sure that the term white is appropriate, simply because each person's definition is different, and it's such an ambiguous term. IMO, it would be fair to call them Caucasian because of where the various races migrated from to occupy Italy these last couple of Millennia.

The colour of an Italian's skin clearly doesn't indicate this, as you would find plenty of dark-skinned Irish and Welsh. Their culture would certainly set them apart from the rest of Europe but that's more due to their location and lifestyle that's been able to evolve over a great length of time.

As for the suggested Negro content - and I'm no expert - even if it were in their gene pool (I seriously doubt this), it wouldn't count any great deal, considering the country's occupation by other European races in the more recent times.

[TheGreatest]

FWIW, in my experience, Italians do tend to consider themselves white,although some Northern Italians consider themselves a bit more so than Neapolitans or Sicilians.I would consider them Mediterranids.

So do Armenians what's your point? :confused:

[TheGreatest]

We shouldn't even have Italians in North America. The Mediterranean man's America is Latin America and they should be sticking with the mess they created down there.

[Gooding]

Point:You're right.Both Armenians and Italians are scientifically considered Mediterranid.My point in my former post was that some Northern Italians, being closer to Central Europe than to Rome, Naples and Sicily, consider themselves closer in culture and ethnicity to the Austrians, French and Swiss.
That's it. I will agree with your second post.My area's swarming with illegals and I devoutly wish that they would try to clean up their own area before contaminating ours.I won't defend the Southern Italians, but the Italians I am acquainted with are Northerners and the Florentines and Milanese are the greatest in my not too humble opinion.

[Loyalist]

Point:You're right.Both Armenians and Italians are scientifically considered Mediterranid.My point in my former post was that some Northern Italians, being closer to Central Europe than to Rome, Naples and Sicily, consider themselves closer in culture and ethnicity to the Austrians, French and Swiss.
That's it.

What Italians, northern or otherwise, "consider" themselves to be is irrelevant; reality says otherwise.

[Gooding]

Good point.I'm off to study this a bit more...

[Loki]

So do Armenians what's your point? :confused:

You better start debating and behaving like an adult on this forum, if you value your future here. First it was Mongol Russians, now it's your skewed, unsubstantiated version of Italians. I've grown tired of your thumb-sucking nonsense. Consider this your very last warning. This (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10859&postcount=34) was actually the last straw, but it seems my patience knows no bounds. Test it a little further if you wish.

[TheGreatest]

You better start debating and behaving like an adult on this forum, if you value your future here. First it was Mongol Russians, now it's your skewed, unsubstantiated version of Italians. I've grown tired of your thumb-sucking nonsense. Consider this your very last warning. This (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10859&postcount=34) was actually the last straw, but it seems my patience knows no bounds. Test it a little further if you wish.

You're beginning to show your true colors. Come on I dare you, be a big man and abuse your admin powers. Opposition must be silenced :coffee:

[Æmeric]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a390/fitbabits/BanHammer.jpg

[TheGreatest]

http://depthome.sunysuffolk.edu/Library/HDHU/images/138.jpg

:D

[Rasvalg]

I have two Italian friends both of whom would take great offense to being considered non-white. One Michael Benanti has a very Roman physique and with his blond hair and blue eyes as well as his very light skin he would easily pass as a Northern European. The other is Richard Scutari, who I look very similar to. We both have brown hair and green eyes. We both when we go out in the sun darken up some but no more than any other good German farmer from here in Northern Wisconsin. So that brings to question then are these men good white Europeans or not. Now if we are discussing Sicilians then the answer is they have been overtaken to the point that they even call themselves Ni##ers, but if we are just talking about Italians in general then the answer is yes. Of course this is my opinion that is also based on study of different migration theories and the like. Now then we must also remember that as others have posted these pictures of so called Italians these are also alot of Hollywood Italians, that is what the media portrays Italians as.
Just food for thought in hopes of getting this thread back on track again.
So what is your thought, are Italians like Northern Europeans or not?

[Maelstrom]

We shouldn't even have Italians in North America. The Mediterranean man's America is Latin America and they should be sticking with the mess they created down there.

It's not that clean cut. What of the Germanic people who settled in South America? What about the Welsh colonies in Argentina?

[Creeping Death]

So what is your thought, are Italians like Northern Europeans or not?
As far as I know and realize that Northern Italians are virtually Germanic due to the large Germanic invasions of the Lombards. Western Sicilians are light in appearance due to Norman ancestry. I know in the Alps region are many Red Headed Italians that is from the Paleolithic era of the original indigenous inhabitants of Europe who were Red Headed. Italians are white, unfortunately we have many North American and Australian posters on here who think otherwise as this goes back to the biased Anglo Saxon days of the "wog", and this attitude is from that era.

My personal opinion is that the Italian culture ie Fashion, food, lifestyle is a bedrock of European identity.

[Loki]

You're beginning to show your true colors. Come on I dare you, be a big man and abuse your admin powers. Opposition must be silenced :coffee:

Your wish is my command.

Ahhh ... rarely does abusing feel that good.

:coffee:

[Revenant]

unfortunately we have many North American and Australian posters on here who think otherwise as this goes back to the biased Anglo Saxon days of the "wog", and this attitude is from that era.


Which Australians on here exactly?. Greeks, Italians and Slavs, who are all white, aren't the only ones who themselves ID as wogs anymore.

[Rhobot]

Italians are Caucasoid people from Europe, so yes they are "white" by most definitions of the word. Of course people in Italy (especially central/southern Italy) do tend to have darker coloring than most northern and central Europeans, and the south does have its share of people with a more "Near Eastern" appearance in terms of facial features.
Also, like Greeks (from whom they are in large part descended), many southern Italians have Y-chromosome haplogroups (mostly E3b and J2) that originated in the Near East and expanded into southeastern Europe during the Neolithic. Then, there are Sicilians (less than 10 percent) who have North African Y and mtDNA haplogroups (e.g. Y-E3b M81). Some people in parts of Tuscany have genetic links to Anatolia (where the Etruscans originated).
Yet even in Sicily (which nordicists bad-mouth the most) there are also Y chromosome haplogroups of northern/western European origin (R1b and I) and people who have a clearly northern/western European appearance.

The entirely predictable (given geography and history) genetic and phenotypic differences between northern Europeans and Italians don't matter one whit in determining the contribution of Italy or its people to history.
Any objective observer would admit that Western civilization as we know it simply WOULD NOT EXIST without classical Greece and Rome or the Italian Renaissance.

[Treffie]

Some random Sicilians, make your own mind up.


http://e.imagehost.org/t/0943/sic1.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0943/sic1) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0931/sic2.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0931/sic2) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0333/sic3.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0333/sic3) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0736/sic4.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0736/sic4) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0136/sic5.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0136/sic5) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0939/sic6.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0939/sic6) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0341/sic7.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0341/sic7) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0749/sic8.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0749/sic8)

http://e.imagehost.org/t/0646/sic9.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0646/sic9) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0161/sic10.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0161/sic10) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0070/sic11.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0070/sic11) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0472/sic12.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0472/sic12) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0261/sic13.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0261/sic13) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0671/sic14.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0671/sic14) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0068/sic15.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0068/sic15)

http://e.imagehost.org/t/0194/sic17.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0194/sic17) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0493/sic18.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0493/sic18) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0304/sic19.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0304/sic19) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0700/sic20.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0700/sic20) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0611/sic21.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0611/sic21) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0401/sic22.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0401/sic22)

[Absinthe]

It cracks me up, everytime I see WASP teenagers from the Colonies, boasting their pompous theories about mixed blood in Southern Europe, while their only contact with those cultures are 'The Sopranos' and 'My Big Fat Greek Wedding' :rolleyes:

I personally don't give a toss about what Italian communities in the U.S. or Australia are like. Any community, away from it's land, will turn into a different species, eventually. A caricature, if you may.

Much as I don't identify with 'Greek-Americans' or 'Greek-Australians', I only care to debate about Italians in Europe, and the issue of 'Whiteness' is ridiculous.

Italians/Romans are on of the nations that have contributed vastly to European civilization, and ironically enough, Western civilization at that. We are even using the latin font, ffs. And to be called 'niggers' and what not by ignorant teenagers from the other side of the world, is hilarious, to say the least.

[Loki]

Some random Sicilians, make your own mind up.


http://e.imagehost.org/t/0943/sic1.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0943/sic1) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0931/sic2.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0931/sic2) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0333/sic3.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0333/sic3) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0736/sic4.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0736/sic4) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0136/sic5.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0136/sic5) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0939/sic6.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0939/sic6) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0341/sic7.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0341/sic7) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0749/sic8.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0749/sic8)

http://e.imagehost.org/t/0646/sic9.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0646/sic9) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0161/sic10.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0161/sic10) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0070/sic11.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0070/sic11) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0472/sic12.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0472/sic12) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0261/sic13.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0261/sic13) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0671/sic14.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0671/sic14) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0068/sic15.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0068/sic15)

http://e.imagehost.org/t/0194/sic17.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0194/sic17) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0493/sic18.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0493/sic18) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0304/sic19.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0304/sic19) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0700/sic20.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0700/sic20) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0611/sic21.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0611/sic21) http://e.imagehost.org/t/0401/sic22.jpg (http://e.imagehost.org/view/0401/sic22)

All I see is a whole lot of x's. :confused:

[Treffie]

Strange, I've uploaded them from I/Shack a while back, let me fiddle about a bit.

[Vulpix]

I see them Tref.



Non-white :D?

http://www.missitalia.rai.it/archivio/miss2008/finaliste/big/008a.jpg

[Loyalist]

It cracks me up, everytime I see WASP teenagers from the Colonies, boasting their pompous theories about mixed blood in Southern Europe, while their only contact with those cultures are 'The Sopranos' and 'My Big Fat Greek Wedding' :rolleyes:

I personally don't give a toss about what Italian communities in the U.S. or Australia are like. Any community, away from it's land, will turn into a different species, eventually. A caricature, if you may.

Much as I don't identify with 'Greek-Americans' or 'Greek-Australians', I only care to debate about Italians in Europe, and the issue of 'Whiteness' is ridiculous.

Italians/Romans are on of the nations that have contributed vastly to European civilization, and ironically enough, Western civilization at that. We are even using the latin font, ffs. And to be called 'niggers' and what not by ignorant teenagers from the other side of the world, is hilarious, to say the least.

I'm not sure how Greece came into this, but it's ignorant to assume any individual is basing their conclusions off a handful of subjects they've seen in the media. This is a discussion about Italians, not the racial origins of every group in the Mediterranean, and thus Greeks should not be factored into an entirely separate issue.

In many ways, Rome did indeed lay the foundation of modern civilization, but modern Italians have nothing to do with ancient Romans. Sicily and much of mainland Italy spent hundreds of years under occupation by Arabs, Moors, Persians, and sub-Saharan Africans. To say these people made no contribution to the Italian genepool would be akin to asserting that the Anglo-Saxons and Normans had no impact upon the blood of the English. Both are utterly ludicrous, and history, science, and common sense say otherwise. Italians consistently demonstrate one of, if not the hightest rates of non-European admixture of any European group. This site sums it up nicely:

http://www.white-history.com/refuting_rm/5.html
http://www.white-history.com/refuting_rm/admixture.html

How these two could possibly be categorized into the same racial group, or any other common identity, is beyond me. Neither are extreme or special cases, but rather typical subjects of their respective homelands.

http://i43.tinypic.com/5cgivs.jpg http://i44.tinypic.com/294hpwg.jpg

[Loki]

How these two could possibly be categorized into the same racial group, or any other common identity, is beyond me. Neither are extreme or special cases, but rather typical subjects of their respective homelands.

http://i43.tinypic.com/5cgivs.jpg http://i44.tinypic.com/294hpwg.jpg

Absolutely agreed on this -- the woman in the first picture is not white in my books. However, we are talking individuals and family bloodlines here. I can even pick you out pictures of selected Scandinavians who look dodgy. To condemn an entire nation, with diverse regions and heritage, to the same stereotype is not only ridiculous, but more importantly erroneous.

[Heimmacht]

Italians are of mediteranid stock, they may be white, but I would never choose one as my partner it just doesnt seem right.

[Loyalist]

Absolutely agreed on this -- the woman in the first picture is not white in my books. However, we are talking individuals and family bloodlines here. I can even pick you out pictures of selected Scandinavians who look dodgy. To condemn an entire nation, with diverse regions and heritage, to the same stereotype is not only ridiculous, but more importantly erroneous.

I certainly agree that there are exceptions; Pernilla August isn't exactly the picture of a typical Scandinavian (she actually wouldn't be out of place among certain Italians).

http://i44.tinypic.com/2zp3yhk.jpg

A case-by-case examination is therefore definitely valid, but the point I'm trying to make is that the average Italian bears much more resemblance to the swarthy subject in my previous post than to the unmixed European she is constrasted to.

[Loki]

I certainly agree that there are exceptions; Pernilla August isn't exactly the picture of a typical Scandinavian (she actually wouldn't be out of place among certain Italians).

http://i44.tinypic.com/2zp3yhk.jpg


The one above is not an exception -- there are a lot more dodgy looking ones out there.


A case-by-case examination is therefore definitely valid, but the point I'm trying to make is that the average Italian bears much more resemblance to the swarthy subject in my previous post than to the unmixed European she is constrasted to.

I'm not convinced. The picture you posted was of a non-white individual. The average Italian north of Rome looks very different from her.

[Loyalist]

The one above is not an exception -- there are a lot more dodgy looking ones out there.

I would say she is, but in light of that, please post some examples.


I'm not convinced. The picture you posted was of a non-white individual. The average Italian north of Rome looks very different from her.

The person in the picture is an actress from mainland Italy, and the site I provided contains examples of even darker Italian phenotypes. This notion that there is some line down the middle of Italy separating non-white southerners from European northerners is laughable. It's the same country, same ethnic group, and inter-migration between various parts has been a factor throughout history.

[Loki]

I would say she is, but in light of that, please post some examples.


As a 19-year old Canadian, have you ever been to Italy? Tell me that first.

[Loyalist]

As a 19-year old Canadian, have you ever been to Italy? Tell me that first.

Thought so. :rolleyes:

[Loki]

Thought so. :rolleyes:

Explain? It better be good.

[Vargtand]

Well personally I think the term White is useless. so for that reason I don't really care if Italians are classed as white, anymore than I care if Russians are classed as white.

The only term that is remotely relevant to me is races, eg. Germanic, Celtic, ... Slavic.

As I refuse to be grouped together with any group of people that are not my own. Unless we are going to talk about indo-Europeans, then I would certainly see that Iranians were also included.

Basically what I am saying the Term white is such an artificial construction that it serves hardly any purpose other than to immediately classify a stranger (and even that purpose does it not fill good) Hell even according to some peoples definition I am not white, as apparently I've been confused with being Italian and seeing as they are not white to some people I can't either be white now can I?

That is just my reflection of the term though.



Edit, I did have a holiday to Italy last summer.
of course this being in Lombardi so it's more or less as north as you can come. but in all honesty sure they did not look like Swedes or other north Germanic people, but they most certainly did not look like Arabs or any other none European people...

[Loyalist]

Explain? It better be good.

Whether or not I've been to Italy is completely irrelevant to my request for your examples of "dodgy" looking Scandinavians.

[Treffie]

I would say she is, but in light of that, please post some examples.




What examples do you want? I've got light ones, dark ones, blondes and brunette Italians in my goody bag.;)

[Vulpix]

I would say she is, but in light of that, please post some examples.

Some dodgy Swedes (?):

http://www.thelocal.se/images/gallery/656/7120.326.488.jpg


http://www.thelocal.se/images/gallery/668/7316.729.486.jpg


http://www.thelocal.se/images/gallery/668/7309.729.486.jpg

[Loki]

Whether or not I've been to Italy is completely irrelevant to my request for your examples of "dodgy" looking Scandinavians.

Oh, I thought you were talking about Italians.

I will post some examples, I am just at work and can't right now. This evening ...

[Vargtand]

Whether or not I've been to Italy is completely irrelevant to my request for your examples of "dodgy" looking Scandinavians.

You can have a picture of me if you like, I think I fit that category quite well considering I don't look like the stereotype.

[Loyalist]

Wow.

Loki says he has examples of "dodgy" looking Scandinavians. I ask him to post them, so he responds:


As a 19-year old Canadian, have you ever been to Italy? Tell me that first.

That has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I point that out, and I get rep points deducted for being "cocky"?

lol

[Treffie]

Wow.

Loki says he has examples of "dodgy" looking Scandinavians. I ask him to post them, so he responds:





Loyalist, I hate to take sides, but you gave me that impression too. See my post above - I was ready to post loads of Italians.

[Loyalist]

Loyalist, I hate to take sides, but you gave me that impression too. See my post above - I was ready to post loads of Italians.

I even quoted the post where he said my example of Pernilla August wasn't the best for an atypical Scandinavian...

http://i39.tinypic.com/2h8352x.jpg

How could I have possibly made it any clearer? :confused:

[Vulpix]

BUMP


Some dodgy Swedes (?):

http://www.thelocal.se/images/gallery/656/7120.326.488.jpg


http://www.thelocal.se/images/gallery/668/7316.729.486.jpg


http://www.thelocal.se/images/gallery/668/7309.729.486.jpg

[Vargtand]

I even quoted the post where he said my example of Pernilla August wasn't the best for an atypical Scandinavian...

http://i39.tinypic.com/2h8352x.jpg

How could I have possibly made it any clearer? :confused:

Obviously it was a misunderstanding then, I am sure in the greater scheme of life it has little importance for any of the effected parties so I would assume that we can continue with the discussion at hand rather than dissecting how the misunderstanding came to be.

[Loyalist]

BUMP

Thank you, that's what I asked for to begin with.

I ask that my rep points be restored, as by the responsible party's own admission my request was taken out of context.

[Loki]

I even quoted the post where he said my example of Pernilla August wasn't the best for an atypical Scandinavian...

http://i39.tinypic.com/2h8352x.jpg

How could I have possibly made it any clearer? :confused:

Banned for 7 days for being cocky.

[Treffie]

How could I have possibly made it any clearer? :confused:

Never mind, I got confused. But this a thread about Italians.:confused:

[Æmeric]

It cracks me up, everytime I see WASP teenagers from the Colonies, boasting their pompous theories about mixed blood in Southern Europe, while their only contact with those cultures are 'The Sopranos' and 'My Big Fat Greek Wedding' :rolleyes:

I personally don't give a toss about what Italian communities in the U.S. or Australia are like. Any community, away from it's land, will turn into a different species, eventually. A caricature, if you may.

As I stated previous, the Italian community in America is mainly from Sicily & the lower end of the boot. Maybe not representative of Italians as a whole but certainly of the Italians in the US & Canada. Am I wrong in assuming that people from that region have a bad reputation in Europe & even Italy. And even if they are White, if you equate that term with Caucasian, they are still subracially different from the populations of Northwest Europe which are Nordish or part Nordish.

America was not a wilderness when the Italians started arriving in the late 19th century. Boston, New York & Philadelphia were all over 200-years old. The animosity Anglo-Americans have/had against Italians is they were/are an alien element dumped on our shores against the wishes of most of the native population (by native I mean the Old Stock Americans). They were allowed in for the same reason Latinos are currently being allowed in - cheap labor. The situation of Italians coming to the US is no different from the current migration of Caucasian ("White") Algerians to France, Caucasian Turks to Germany or Caucasian Kurds to Sweden. All of these migrations cause ethnic tensions which will probably last for generations, why is anybody surprise these still exist in the New World.


Much as I don't identify with 'Greek-Americans' or 'Greek-Australians', I only care to debate about Italians in Europe, and the issue of 'Whiteness' is ridiculous. The issue of Whiteness has a place in the New World because of our history. White meant Nordish, e.g English, German, Scots etc.. The presence of Europeans who are not of Nordish stock starting in the late 19th century is why we have debates over who is "White". Is it to be an inclusive term or exclusive? In any case the admission of so many Latinos of mixed race in the last 40-years (who by the way are compared to the Italians) has caused a shift in the colorline. In 50-years we will probalby be debating if (New World) Hispanics are White.


Italians/Romans are on of the nations that have contributed vastly to European civilization, and ironically enough, Western civilization at that. We are even using the latin font, ffs. And to be called 'niggers' and what not by ignorant teenagers from the other side of the world, is hilarious, to say the least. You forgot to mention Italy was also the cradle of the Renaissance, especially Tuscany & other regions in the north. But very few immigrants departed Tuscany or Lombardy for the New World. Italy did not send us her best or brightest but those she had no use for, who transplanted a criminal culture in the New World. So forgive those of us not fortunate enough to experience the real Italy if we get our impression of that nation from it's sons & daughters in the New World whom we've had contact with.

[Loki]

Ok Loyalist I'll be kind and give you another chance to try to act respectfully as an adult. Don't abuse it again. I don't have a lot of patience today.

[Manifest Destiny]

Italian American
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2010/2371735544_34ccfbc4e5.jpg?v=0
''The Guy from Boston''

Despite what I may think about this guy's fashion sense, he clearly looks white to me.

[Creeping Death]

Which Australians on here exactly?. Greeks, Italians and Slavs, who are all white, aren't the only ones who themselves ID as wogs anymore.
What Australians give me a break! I find this thread distasteful and deliberate, this reeks of the anti-Geek and Italian shit I grew up with as well as the Anti Irish garbage. I put it all down to the old Anglo-Scottish cultural domination of Australia, Canada and America. In Europe this is not even an issue and here on a Eurocentric forum we have this insulting thread to Italians.

[Revenant]

What Australians give me a break!

You made the claim, I haven't seen any Aussies here question Italian's or any other European countries whiteness for that matter. I did make a comment about the new wog subculture. It involves lebs and middle easterners now it's not the same as what it used to be, say in the 70's or even 80's. Europeans of any type who want to embrace that (there are plenty that don't) can fuck off.


I find this thread distasteful and deliberate, this reeks of the anti-Geek and Italian shit I grew up with as well as the Anti Irish garbage. I put it all down to the old Anglo-Scottish cultural domination of Australia, Canada and America.

Separate the American and Canadian experience from ours. We can only comment on Australia, from reading other posts it's obvious that our situation's very different. All the Italians I've known have looked pretty much no different from Anglo Saxon Aussies, except they tan easier and have darker hair and eyes. They've never done anything much to complain about either.

Apart from that, if people want to claim Italians aren't white (or proper Europeans if you like) then they are going to have to back it up with evidence. So far they haven't provided any. The only evidence has been to the contrary.


In Europe this is not even an issue and here on a Eurocentric forum we have this insulting thread to Italians.

It is pointless in my opinion.

[stormlord]

In many ways, Rome did indeed lay the foundation of modern civilization, but modern Italians have nothing to do with ancient Romans.


What an utterly moronic and insulting statement, and please can people stop quoting that pathetic white history website. The fact is you have zero evidence (ps evidence is not classified as the rantings of a deranged nordicist on his personal website) that the current Italians are not virtually identical to the people who founded the Roman empire. The reality is, not just during the time of the Roman empire, but throughout history, up to the present day, the Italians have made a huge contribution to western civilization, and no insult meant, but a far greater contribution than the "purest" most nordic countries.

Also, the fact that a people have dark hair and eyes does not make them less European; the people generally accepted as the purest "Europeans" are the Basque people, and they are generally dark haired and dark eyed.

Just for fun, check out my favourite swarthy Sicilian supermodel;

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6673/000000126502evariccobonvd2.th.png (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000000126502evariccobonvd2.png)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2596/000000138974evariccobonis5.th.png (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000000138974evariccobonis5.png)

Oh my, get out those dish dashes, she's virtually an arab! :D

[Loki]

Ok, home at last, so I can post longer responses.



Whether or not I've been to Italy is completely irrelevant to my request for your examples of "dodgy" looking Scandinavians.


I will get to your examples in a minute. But whether you have ever been to Italy is entirely relevant to this discussion, since you are holding such a strong position on what Italians actually look like.

My best guess is that you have never been to Italy -- perhaps not even to Europe. For a teenage Canadian who has never been to Europe, you should watch your statements more carefully. This is a discussion forum for serious European preservationists -- you should understand this. Think twice before posting slanderous attempts to smear entire nations with images that you cannot even confirm are of that nationality. I doubt the image you posted of the non-white lady is of a pure Italian. Prove me wrong.

I am the first supporter of Nordic/Nordish preservation, but I can't stand it when people use lies and cheap propaganda to strengthen their arguments. It's not going to work here, there are intelligent people on this forum. You will be caught out and your theories exposed as puerile nonsense.

[Loyalist]

What an utterly moronic and insulting statement,

Likewise.


and please can people stop quoting that pathetic white history website. The fact is you have zero evidence (ps evidence is not classified as the rantings of a deranged nordicist on his personal website)

If the site were a deranged rant, I would agree, and certainly wouldn't cite it. However, the owner provides sources for all data, as well as physical examples, historical information, etc. This site is "discredited" because it supports a Nordicist agenda that contradicts the pan-European view of the masses.


that the current Italians are not virtually identical to the people who founded the Roman empire. The reality is, not just during the time of the Roman empire, but throughout history, up to the present day, the Italians have made a huge contribution to western civilization, and no insult meant, but a far greater contribution than the "purest" most nordic countries.

The Romans who inhabited the old Roman Empire were a proto-European people, albeit with various levels of input from other regions of the continent and, later on, the colonies. Since the fall of Rome, Italy has been subject to conquest by all manner of groups, European and otherwise. Among the latter are Arabs, Moors, Persians, Jews, and according to historical accounts, sub-Saharan Africans (which also provides an explanation for the comparatively high amounts of African genes present in the populations of Southerm European nations). These invaders, who conquered Sicily and much of the Italian mainland, and were not expelled until the Norman Conquest. That means centuries of intermixture between occupying forces and the indigenous population. Without going into genetic matters, history alone dictates that, by the dawn of the 11th century, the Italian genepool would have been drastically altered from Roman times.


Also, the fact that a people have dark hair and eyes does not make them less European; the people generally accepted as the purest "Europeans" are the Basque people, and they are generally dark haired and dark eyed.

Nowhere have I said dark features are not European, but in the case of Italy, where there is both genetic and historic evidence of intermixture with outsiders, it's a completely different matter.

Basques are not Indo-Europeans, and their true origins are still nothing more than theory.

[Loyalist]

Ok, home at last, so I can post longer responses.



I will get to your examples in a minute. But whether you have ever been to Italy is entirely relevant to this discussion, since you are holding such a strong position on what Italians actually look like.

My best guess is that you have never been to Italy -- perhaps not even to Europe. For a teenage Canadian who has never been to Europe, you should watch your statements more carefully. This is a discussion forum for serious European preservationists -- you should understand this. Think twice before posting slanderous attempts to smear entire nations with images that you cannot even confirm are of that nationality. I doubt the image you posted of the non-white lady is of a pure Italian. Prove me wrong.

I am the first supporter of Nordic/Nordish preservation, but I can't stand it when people use lies and cheap propaganda to strengthen their arguments. It's not going to work here, there are intelligent people on this forum. You will be caught out and your theories exposed as puerile nonsense.

I have never been to Italy and, as I have no connection to the nation, I never will. We have enough ethnic Italians in this country, particularly in my city, that I am well versed in their appearance.

Never been to Europe? I lived in England, North London to be specific, attended school there, etc. I have also spent a good amount of time in Scotland, Wales, and Ulster, and, albeit briefly, saw the Netherlands. ;)

What you are not taking into consideration is our distinct national situations; the massive influx of Italians into my country is a threat to the preservation of Canadians of Northern European origin through inter-marriage, cultural imcompatibility, conflicting values, etc. Æmeric's post gives an excellent picture of the Colonial viewpoint on the matter.

As for the issue of "who's the better preservationist", that ideal concerns me insofar as preserving and securing the existence of Northern European nations, their populations, and global dispoara. As I have no justification to interfere in their issues, matters pertinent to Slavs, Mediterraneans, and so on are not applicable to me. I will, however, speak in the defence of the old-stock populace of my own nation, particularly when its future is threatened by the influx of outsiders, Europeans or otherwise. How are we to preserve the Germanic/Celtic/Celtogermanic populace of Canada, and all Colonial lands in general, when Italians and other alien Europeans are settling here? It is contradictory on the most basic of levels.

Furthermore, I have always been very clear that my views on Italians, and any other group concerned, are from a strictly Colonial point of view.

[Loki]

I have never been to Italy and, as I have no connection to the nation, I never will. We have enough ethnic Italians in this country, particularly in my city, that I am well versed in their appearance.


Yes, as mentioned before, the Italo-Americans are probably as much representative of continental Italians, as "Hispanic" Americans are of Spaniards in Europe.

However I completely understand your preference for lighter Europeans. I am of this preference myself.


Never been to Europe? I lived in England, North London to be specific, attended school there, etc. I have also spent a good amount of time in Scotland, Wales, and Ulster, and, albeit briefly, saw the Netherlands. ;)


That's good experience at your age.


What you are not taking into consideration is our distinct national situations; the massive influx of Italians into my country is a threat to the preservation of Canadians of Northern European origin through inter-marriage, cultural imcompatibility, conflicting values, etc. Æmeric's post gives an excellent picture of the Colonial viewpoint on the matter.


I also do not support Italian mass migration to Canada. Canada's original composition was Celto-Germanic, and in my view it should stay that way if it wants to retain its unique character.

Rasvalg's original question with this thread was whether Italians were white. I think by now we can all see just why I said in my first post that it was a loaded question. "Whiteness" means different things to different people. There are Albanian Muslims who are blond haired and blue eyed, and of Nordish racial origin. Do I want to mingle with them? Certainly not!

If we are to discuss the whiteness of Italians, we should be more specific about who we are talking about. Mafia gangs in Chicago, or Piedmontese? We also need to admit that all Italians do not have the same genetic inheritance -- some are fully of Central European stock, whereas others -- mainly in the south -- are racially more akin to North Africans, or at the very least have some considerable foreign admixture. We can't judge all of Italy in the same breath, just as we can't judge all Europeans in the same manner. The modern borders of Italy are just that ... modern. Historically, the North of Italy was part of the Holy Roman Empire -- the German Reich.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Holy_Roman_Empire_ca.1600.svg/250px-Holy_Roman_Empire_ca.1600.svg.png

And even this only tells a small part of the story.

[Brynhild]

For the record, I like Italians. This clip was from a movie made many years ago about an Italian migrant arriving in Australia. It was one of the best movies ever made in this country. :thumbs up


XdfsrhRimZ0

[Psychonaut]

Man, I sure missed a lot last night. :D


So what is your thought, are Italians like Northern Europeans or not?

No. They are certainly Europeans, but are Western, not Northern Europeans. The genetic profiles of Northerners are nearly indistinguishable from those of Alpine France, Germany and Switzerland, and the Southerners share much in common with their Mediterranean kin.


As far as I know and realize that Northern Italians are virtually Germanic due to the large Germanic invasions of the Lombards.

The genetic surveys don't really show this to be the case. Definitively Germanic haplogroups, such as R1b1c9 and I1 only account for 8.3% of Italy. So, in effect Italians are about a third as likely to be of Germanic stock as are the French.


In many ways, Rome did indeed lay the foundation of modern civilization, but modern Italians have nothing to do with ancient Romans.

Please qualify this with some evidence. There have only been a few very specific modal haplotypes that are distinctly Roman, E3b1a2 and the haplotype 35 variant of R1b. I'm not able to find any info at the moment about their distribution or frequency in Italy, but if you know something, I'd love to hear it.


To say these people made no contribution to the Italian genepool would be akin to asserting that the Anglo-Saxons and Normans had no impact upon the blood of the English.

I don't know if you knew this, but the Anglo-Saxons and Normans really didn't have that great of an impact on the Isles; the vast majority of Britain's inhabitants are aboriginal Britons. There have been two excellent books written specifically about this: The Origins of the British by Stephen Oppenheimer and Saxons, Vikings and Celts by Bryan Sykes.


Nowhere have I said dark features are not European, but in the case of Italy, where there is both genetic and historic evidence of intermixture with outsiders, it's a completely different matter.

Did you happen to see the info from the genetic surveys I posted? African genetic admixture amongst Italians as a whole is minimal. If you have some evidence to the contrary, aside from white-history.com, whip it out.


Well personally I think the term White is useless. so for that reason I don't really care if Italians are classed as white, anymore than I care if Russians are classed as white.

Bingo :thumb001:

White can be a useful construct in places like the US or South Africa, where it's mainly used to distinguish ourselves from Blacks, but playing the "I'm whiter than you" game amongst Europeans just ends up being silly.

[Loyalist]

I don't know if you knew this, but the Anglo-Saxons and Normans really didn't have that great of an impact on the Isles; the vast majority of Britain's inhabitants are aboriginal Britons. There have been two excellent books written specifically about this: The Origins of the British by Stephen Oppenheimer and Saxons, Vikings and Celts by Bryan Sykes.

I don't believe that; for every study which identifies the English as Celts, there's another which claims they're predominantly Germanic (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-396406/Were-Germans--1-600-years.html). Given the scale of Angle, Saxon, Jute, Frisian, Dane, Norse, and Norman settlement in England, and the British Isles in general, Germanic input in the peoples of the region is, at the very least, being grossly understated in this case.

Furthermore, Oppenheimer argues that, not only are the English not Germanic, but they have little or no influence from the Celts, which common sense would say is utter lunacy (and conflicts with your indigenous Briton theory). This is a good example of why Semites who involve themselves in such matters shouldn't be taken seriously.


Did you happen to see the info from the genetic surveys I posted? African genetic admixture amongst Italians as a whole is minimal. If you have some evidence to the contrary, aside from white-history.com, whip it out.

I didn't say the Italians are anywhere near being predominantly African in genetic origin, but rather that, among Europeans, they have one the largest percentages of African admixture.

[Brynhild]

Could we please stop bringing other races into this thread?. I realise it's unavoidable to some extent that we speak about the racial composition of Italians, but it doesn't give anyone the right to talk exculsively about other races, while ignoring the essence of this thread.

Either prove that the Italians are white or not, otherwise don't bother saying anything at all!

[Jägerstaffel]

What's all this having to go to Italy to know what an Italian looks like?
The world media is pretty global; surely everyone has seen a picture of Italy and movies of Italy. Or watched a TV program about it. Surely everyone has met an Italian immigrant or tourist - or group of them or knows someone who has visited. I've never been to the Middle East, but I can pick the Middle Easterner out of a line-up everytime.

Whether or not they are white depends on the beholder's idiosyncratic definition of white, I think we can all agree on that. And I think we can all agree that the Apricity is about Europeon Preservation and Italians are Europeon.

And this is coming from a huge Nordicist! :)

[Ulf]

I didn't say the Italians are anywhere near being predominantly African in genetic origin, but rather that, among Europeans, they have one the largest percentages of African admixture.

There is some admixture of Sub-Saharan African DNA, due to the Early Modern African slave trade It shows a decreasing cline from the southwest to the northeast, which corresponds with the areas most involved in slave trade. Not every population has been studied yet, but enough have so that a picture is starting to emerge. The amount of black admixture in Europe today ranges from a few percent in Iberia to almost nil around the Baltic.[40]

Achilli et al. 2007[41] used generally large samples of numerous populations to come up with the following frequencies: 10.84% in the Southern Portuguese, 6.4% in the Central Portuguese, 3.7% in Northwestern Spaniards (Galicians), 3.19% in the Northern Portuguese, 2.9% in Central Italians from Latium, 1.9% in Central Italians from Tuscany, 1.9% in Southern Italians from Sicily, 1.68% in Northeastern Spaniards, 0.99% in Greeks from Crete, 0.98% in Central Italians from Marche, 0.83% in Finns, 0.71% in Bulgarians, 0.69% in Bosnians, 0.68% in Central Spaniards, 0.64% in Basques, 0.6% in the English, 0.54% in Italians from Sardinia, 0.44% in the Swiss, 0.32% in Southern Italians from Campania, 0.3% in Frenchmen, 0.3% in Germans and 0.18% in Poles. No admixture was detected in Northern Italians from Lombardy and Piedmont, Southern Italians from Apulia and Calabria, Greeks from Lemnos, Rhodes and elsewhere, Germans from Bavaria, Austrians, Russians, Romanians, Czechs, Estonians, Latvians, Slovakians, Slovenians, Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Irishmen, Welshmen or Scots.

Sub-Saharan African Y-chromosomes are much less common in Europe, for the reasons discussed above. The small presence of the Haplogroups E(xE3b) (i.e. clades of E other than E3b) and Haplogroup A in Europe is almost exclusively attributable to the slave trade, as these haplogroups are characteristic of western, central and southern Africans and are barely observed elsewhere.[42] Haplotype A has been detected in Portugal (3%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Germany (2%), Sardinia (1.6%), Austria (0.78%), Italy (0.45%), Spain (0.42%) and Greece (0.27%). By contrast, North Africans have about 5% paternal sub-Saharan admixture.[43]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_DNA_admixture_in_Europe

[Psychonaut]

I don't believe that; for every study which identifies the English as Celts, there's another which claims they're predominantly Germanic (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-396406/Were-Germans--1-600-years.html).

Since this article is anything but scholarly and doesn't mention any specific haplogroups or modal haplotypes it is impossible to respond favorably or negatively.


Furthermore, Oppenheimer argues that, not only are the English not Germanic, but they have little or no influence from the Celts, which common sense would say is utter lunacy (and conflicts with your indigenous Briton theory). This is a good example of why Semites who involve themselves in such matters shouldn't be taken seriously.

I think you're misunderstanding his thesis, but since this thread isn't about the British I won't digress.


I didn't say the Italians are anywhere near being predominantly African in genetic origin, but rather that, among Europeans, they have one the largest percentages of African admixture.

While that may be true, however, the stats I posted hardly verify your assertion:


Sicily and much of mainland Italy spent hundreds of years under occupation by Arabs, Moors, Persians, and sub-Saharan Africans. To say these people made no contribution to the Italian genepool would be akin to asserting that the Anglo-Saxons and Normans had no impact upon the blood of the English. Both are utterly ludicrous, and history, science, and common sense say otherwise. Italians consistently demonstrate one of, if not the hightest rates of non-European admixture of any European group.

Finland, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuana all have levels of Uralic y-DNA markers that approach 40%. That's hardly comparable to the 5% mt-DNA African admixture that the Italians show.

[Rudy]

This map is more accurate for the origin of haplotypes. It also shows the relation among some of them, such as the IJ type.
http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll373/berthold_2008/Haplogroup_F_Y-DNA.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup

[SwordoftheVistula]

I've been to Italy, and I noticed that the further south you got, the less white they looked, and the worse they acted. The people in Naples, many looked like arabs, and in general the people there acted like scum. Northern cities like Milan weren't too different from other central European countries like France. I have never been to sicily, but they were ruled by the Normans at one point, note their flag and compare to the Isle of Man.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Sicily_%28revised%29.svg/800px-Flag_of_Sicily_%28revised%29.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Flag_of_the_Isle_of_Man.svg/800px-Flag_of_the_Isle_of_Man.svg.png

[Creeping Death]

I've been to Italy, and I noticed that the further south you got, the less white they looked, and the worse they acted. The people in Naples, many looked like arabs, and in general the people there acted like scum. Northern cities like Milan weren't too different from other central European countries like France.
It was just the way the thread was worded that got me, "whether or not Italians are white", more or less tarring the entire Italian people. We know that in the South there has been mixing with Arabs but in the North they are white. You cant say Yes or No it is a lot more complex than that. According to that theory you could say the same with the Brits and French with their amounts of non whites living in their nations.

[Rhobot]

FWIW the design on the Sicilian flag is of Greek origin (it represents the 3 corners of the island).Yes, Sicily was ruled by the Normans, among many others (I don't want my post to be too long, so I won't list them all):) They built quite a few churches and palaces in Sicily, and under their rule Latin Christianity began to replace Greek Orthodoxy and Islam.
Sicilians are pretty variable in the way they look. Many are clearly distinct from northern or western Europeans, others are not. (In other words, there are people with a stereotypical "Near Eastern" look, and there are people with fair hair, rosy complexion and blue eyes).
Only people in Anglo Saxon countries make a big deal of this stuff (and that is mostly on internet forums). In the context of Italy, whether people are "white" by the standards of white nationalists from NW Europe, or whether they may or may not have Arab/Anatolian/etc. ancestry- none of this matters, because Italians (both north and south) are as European, if not more so,* as people north of the Alps.

*I say this because Western culture began with Greece (including Magna Graecia, the home of Archimedes and the Pythagoreans) and Rome, and the Italian Renaissance shaped the course of European culture in art, music, science, philosophy etc. As for Sicily, of course it has some Arabic influences in the culture (food, music, social customs), but there are plenty of Greek and Western European influences as well.

[Maelstrom]

For those of you not getting the man:

White =/= European

"The Apricity Forum: Cultural & Ethnic European Preservation" :rolleyes:

From an ethnic perspective I would hope that all of you are of the same opinion as I: That we would feel much greater solidarity with our fellow European brothers, the Italians, rather than other White (but non-European) peoples, such as this guy (http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonnarramore/1712437195/in/set-72157600522950493/).

[SwordoftheVistula]

'White' is indeed somewhat of a subjective term. Are some Italians racially compatible with me and other northern Europeans? Yes. Are most? Probably not. I'd still view most Europeans as allies against the forces arrayed against us.

[Gooding]

Did some research.Italians are not only white, but they run the spectrum of Europids.Even in Sicily, you'll find the individual here and there with red hair and blue eyes.Obviously, most Southern Italians are darker than most Northern Italians.

[ItalianFury]

I couldn't decide where to start this thread so here it is. It was suggested to me after one of my recent posts to begin a thread dealing with others views on whether or not Italians are white.
So that being said here it is. I will not run this as a poll more just put down your opinion and let us see where this goes. Now guys and gals keep it civil please. I personally believe that Italians are just as white as the rest of the European population and have some good friends who die and have given up there lives to defend that ideal. But not everyone believes that way so again please keep it civil and debate your point of view.
Thanks and have fun with this thread it should be interesting.:D

'The Peninsula' was always vulnerable to invasion and more so when law was broken down... that should be obvious even to the blind eye, as the laws of life are written before the very eyes of men so is history written on the faces of those who come after.

[ItalianFury]

I don't share in the view that Italians are European, caucasian, white, or whichever other term applies to your particular school of thought on the matter. Italians today are the products of a millenia of miscegenation with Moors, Phoenicians, Negroes, and numerous other non-European groups. Their physical appearance alone demonstrates how racially bastardized these people are, without taking into consideration the multitudes of scientific data, as well as historical evidence of migration and conquests, which supports this notion. Racial matters aside, Italians also demonstrate an inherent penchant for criminality, deceitfullness, and, perhaps most of all, laziness. These undesirable traits are also amplified by the fact that they are generally arrogant, overly-emotional, and violent. From a colonial point of view, they are a greater detriment to the preservation of people of Northern European stock than any Asian or African will ever be.

From a late 19th century New Orleans newspaper, reporting on the aftermath of the murder of David Hennessy:

A lot of what you say has relevance, there's no question there were Asiatic and Negro influxes on the Peninsula since the time of Romes initial downfall when they broke tradition and embraced nihilism, but,there was also great blood infusions from the North throughout history.

But I really think your taking this too far when you say Italians are a greater threat than Asians or Africans...Did you forget who Africans were ? do you know they burned down every city in our nation? while the Asians, although they tend to keep to themselves and are more intelligent than Africans, still possess no compassionate traits, as do the Africans, that is not true among the Italians, my grandmother would never take my sisters cat throw it in a pot of boiling water and make meat sauce! nor would any of my grandfathers burn cities to the ground because of 'racial injustice' or common rejection.

I never agreed or felt comfortable when growing up to be on top of Anglo-Saxons, there definitely was tension, and what is the point of putting opposing peoples together? Who benefits ?

When you talk about how Italians were a greater threat, I believe you mean intermarriage am I correct? I agree with you and many Italians were just as opposed to engaging in marriages outside of their immediate kind as were Anglo-Saxons, Irish, Scots etc...

But if you say I'm not white because I might retain small adulterated traces of Negro or Asiatic admixture, I have to disagree, I know myself, and I know who my ancestors were by looking into myself, there's no lies in me, maybe you really don't know the difference in race, while I am your racial kin, I support and respect your wishes while the horde from Asia and Africa do not.

That is the difference, if my nose does not come to a perfect point it is more a physical blemish than one of the mind or spirit. This movement is about the greater whole of our people and we need each other to survive! when we accomplished that, then maybe we can get down to business and start a eugenics program and re-establish natural law back into our governments.

[ItalianFury]

According to the Romans, they thought the Celts to be hideously pale and barbaric and uncivilised, whilst they thought the Egyptians to be beautiful and to possess exquisite darkened skin. Darker than their own.

The Italians look no more different than from the day they were Romans.

Source? links? if there was a major change in religion then that would conclude a genetic one as well.

[Jägerstaffel]

Pope Gregory I stated of the English 'Non Angli, sed Angeli' when he encountered the white faced Anglo slave children brought to Rome.

Goes to show they didn't all find our pale skin so hideous and that it must have been quite striking.

[ItalianFury]

Pope Gregory I stated of the English 'Non Angli, sed Angeli' when he encountered the white faced Anglo slave children brought to Rome.

Goes to show they didn't all find our pale skin so hideous and that it must have been quite striking.

I don't see how the Romans were any 'darker' than the Gauls since they were from the same Indo-European tree.

:confused:you trust the pope?

[Psychonaut]

I don't see how the Romans were any 'darker' than the Gauls since they were from the same Indo-European tree.

There is no IE race, it's a language family. While it probably did originate with the R1a haplogroup, R1a diminishes in frequency the further from the Eurasian steppe that you get. So, in areas where Celtic and Romance people dominate, which are generally quite far from there, R1a is practically absent. What this means is that although Italians speak an IE based language, they're not necessarily descended from the actual PIE people, but are more likely to be descended from the original inhabitants of the Italian peninsula who later adopted IE culture and language. The same is true for most of Western Europe.

[Freomæg]

I started reading this thread, felt like half my braincells had died by about page 4, then realised what a waste of time it was and just clicked on the 'reply' button to write this:

Italians are white, Italians are European.

[ItalianFury]

There is no IE race, it's a language family. While it probably did originate with the R1a haplogroup, R1a diminishes in frequency the further from the Eurasian steppe that you get. So, in areas where Celtic and Romance people dominate, which are generally quite far from there, R1a is practically absent. What this means is that although Italians speak an IE based language, they're not necessarily descended from the actual PIE people, but are more likely to be descended from the original inhabitants of the Italian peninsula who later adopted IE culture and language. The same is true for most of Western Europe.

Weren't the Romans descendants of one of the tribes that sought refuge after the black sea flood? and, if so, would that not make the Romans part of that same genetic family tree? one of the tribes of the same race of people?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that there was no alien races present in those early years following the flood since both the Mongolians and Negroes were far and were not yet introduced to the skills of metallurgy making it impossible for them to travel great distances.

[ItalianFury]

I started reading this thread, felt like half my braincells had died by about page 4, then realised what a waste of time it was and just clicked on the 'reply' button to write this:

Italians are white, Italians are European.

Stop your pandering, your opinions are not facts. In order to reach a level of higher understanding all truth must be met.

[Black Turlogh]

I subscribe to the classical definition of race; for example the Irish race. Broad definitions such as "white" and European are, frankly, irrelevant to my own agenda as a person with a firm ethnic identity.

[Jägerstaffel]

I don't see how the Romans were any 'darker' than the Gauls since they were from the same Indo-European tree.

:confused:you trust the pope?

I don't trust the word of anyone really. I was just quoting a supposed quote from a Roman leader in the time period when they were first meeting some of the northern barbarians.

I don't know what the ethnic origin of the Italians or Romans are. I don't say they aren't 'white' since I don't use that term for the most part. They're European and they certainly belong in Europe and on the Apricity, but they are a culture and ethnic group apart from my own.

I'm not trying to bash any Italians, just stating my piece.

[Psychonaut]

Weren't the Romans descendants of one of the tribes that sought refuge after the black sea flood? and, if so, would that not make the Romans part of that same genetic family tree? one of the tribes of the same race of people?

I didn't think that the Black Sea deluge theory was received very well by the scientific community. I'm pretty sure that the three big haplogroup families (R1b, J2, and E3b) arrived during neolithic times though. The R1a haplogroup, which is most strongly associated with PIE only accounts for 2.9% of Italians. See my post on page three for further details on the breakdown of Italy's genetics.

[Freomæg]

Stop your pandering, your opinions are not facts. In order to reach a level of higher understanding all truth must be met.
Have I missed something? You don't consider yourself white or of European origin?

[jerney]

The Romans who inhabited the old Roman Empire were a proto-European people, albeit with various levels of input from other regions of the continent and, later on, the colonies. Since the fall of Rome, Italy has been subject to conquest by all manner of groups, European and otherwise. Among the latter are Arabs, Moors, Persians, Jews, and according to historical accounts, sub-Saharan Africans (which also provides an explanation for the comparatively high amounts of African genes present in the populations of Southerm European nations). These invaders, who conquered Sicily and much of the Italian mainland, and were not expelled until the Norman Conquest. That means centuries of intermixture between occupying forces and the indigenous population. Without going into genetic matters, history alone dictates that, by the dawn of the 11th century, the Italian genepool would have been drastically altered from Roman times.


lol you're still on this? I'm 1/8 Italian and I am 100% European.

[Loyalist]

lol you're still on this?

I could ask you the same question. ;)

[jerney]

I could ask you the same question. ;)

I'm on it because you're the one who posted in the thread about it. Don't make claims you can't back up.

[Loyalist]

I'm on it because you're the one who posted in the thread about it. Don't make claims you can't back up.

I have backed it up; you and I have been over that time and time again. That's without taking into consideration you've acknowledged Sicilian ancestry, however minute, which speaks for itself.

Are your posts at Apricity actually going to have substance, as opposed to the sarcastic one-liners that were all you could manage at Skadi? You're certainly not off to a good start. :coffee:

[jerney]

I have backed it up; you and I have been over that time and time again. That's without taking into consideration you've acknowledged Sicilian ancestry, however minute, which speaks for itself.

I have Sicilian ancestry and I'm 100% European. That isn't very consistent with your claims.

And what does acknowledging minute amounts of Sicilian speak for? What are you even talking about.

[Loyalist]

I have Sicilian ancestry and I'm 100% European. That isn't very consistent with your claims.

And what does acknowledging minute amounts of Sicilian speak for? What are you even talking about.

Sicily has been occupied throughout history by Moors, Arabs, Phoenicians, Jews, and various other African and Middle Eastern groups. All have provided some degree of genetic input into the population, and while Sicilians may be racially caucasian, they have a far greater degree of non-European input than most Continentals.

How do you substantiate these claims of pure European descent? How far has your ancestry been traced, and in how many branches? Why the shift in calling yourself English/German, when I thought your unique interpretation of what constitutes "ethnicity" prevented you from doing so?

[Rhobot]

Sicily has been occupied throughout history by Moors, Arabs, Phoenicians, Jews, and various other African and Middle Eastern groups. All have provided some degree of genetic input into the population, and while Sicilians may be racially caucasian, they have a far greater degree of non-European input than most Continentals.

Of course Sicilians have more non-European ancestry than northern or western Europeans. As you point out, they come from an island in the middle of the Mediterranean that has been invaded by almost everybody at some time or other in the past 10,000 years. Most likely, however, Sicilians are more closely related to other southern Europeans (particularly mainland Italians and Greeks) than to North Africans or most Near Easterners.
The European Journal of Human Genetics study (DiGaetano et al 2008) shows a genetic contribution of about 37% from the Greeks (based on haplogroup E3b1a2-V13) and about 7% from North Africa (based on haplogroup E3b1b-M81).

As this chart shows, western Sicily has more R and I (upper Paleolithic European Y-haplogroups) than eastern Sicily, which may reflect the lack of Greek colonization there, or the medieval migrations to the region from north Italy and north/west Europe.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/images/ejhg2008120f2.jpg
I think a fair amount of the "Near Eastern" Neolithic ancestry comes from the Greek colonization (c. 700 BC) or even earlier migrations, as the Near Eastern Y chromosomes are most pronounced in the eastern part of the island.

As for phenotype, Sicilians are as diverse as any European ethnic group:
http://www.agoravox.it/local/cache-vignettes/L170xH180/larussajpg-aaf40-1221650595.jpg
Italian defense minister Ignazio La Russa (from Catania)

http://img.skysports.com/08/08/218x298/MassimoTaibi_1087616.jpg
Football goalkeeper Massimo Taibi (from Palermo)

http://www.sanremonews.it/uploads/news_images/central/Miriam_Leone_17Feb2009_2.jpg
Miss Italia 2008 Miriam Leone (from Catania)

http://www.repubblica.it/2007/06/sezioni/cronaca/clan-messina/clan-messina/este_06103532_20580.jpg
Actress Maria Grazia Cucinotta (from Messina)

[Loyalist]

I love how this thread is forever being resurrected, and invariably by some Mediterranean fetishist singling out my posts and nit-picking every detail. I've made myself clear on the matter, as has everyone else, so that's the end of my involvement in this thread; don't waste your time.

[ItalianFury]

Have I missed something? You don't consider yourself white or of European origin?

I apologize for not answering you earlier, but I was referring to Loyalist and other Anglo-Saxons who are making a point in racial admixture which has been admitted by the Italian DNA project where small traces of Negro and Asiatic stands have been detected.
As a believer in Pan-Aryanism we should hold in high regard those who have an argument in purity of blood-lines and we should never have fear of addressing those uncomfortable feelings in exchange for truth, which, is the path of evolution. Italians, in my best opinion, came into the United States with European traditions as evidenced by my grandparents, although they were not readily compatible with the English or Dutch of Old New York.

[ItalianFury]

I didn't think that the Black Sea deluge theory was received very well by the scientific community. I'm pretty sure that the three big haplogroup families (R1b, J2, and E3b) arrived during neolithic times though. The R1a haplogroup, which is most strongly associated with PIE only accounts for 2.9% of Italians. See my post on page three for further details on the breakdown of Italy's genetics.

The Black Sea deluge makes perfect sense...a people need isolation for evolution. It's that simple, besides, they found the red haired and blond haired mummies along the predicted paths, which had it's origin from the Black Sea flood theory.

[Crose]

I'm a wanna-be Italian. Or maybe I just love the food, haven't figured it out yet. :thumb001:

[Rhobot]

I apologize for not answering you earlier, but I was referring to Loyalist and other Anglo-Saxons who are making a point in racial admixture which has been admitted by the Italian DNA project where small traces of Negro and Asiatic stands have been detected.
As a believer in Pan-Aryanism we should hold in high regard those who have an argument in purity of blood-lines and we should never have fear of addressing those uncomfortable feelings in exchange for truth, which, is the path of evolution. Italians, in my best opinion, came into the United States with European traditions as evidenced by my grandparents, although they were not readily compatible with the English or Dutch of Old New York.

There is probably very little "Negro" ancestry in Sicily. The sickle-cell gene variant found at low frequencies in Sicily (2% overall, higher in the southeast of the island) is HbS Benin, which originated in West Africa. (HbS is also found in Greece- in some places more frequent than in Sicily.)
Of course, sickle cell gene (HbS) has a heterozygous advantage in malarial regions (and malaria was endemic in much of southern Europe until the late 20th century). And there probably were small numbers of sub-Saharan slaves and mercenaries in the classical and medieval Mediterranean world who could have introduced the gene. However, given the heterozygous advantage of HbS in malarial regions, its presence is hardly a reliable indicator of the amount of sub-Saharan ancestry in the Sicilian and Greek populations.

DNA studies do show that Sicilians probably have more "non-European Caucasoid" ancestry from West Asia and North Africa than the majority of European populations.
North African ancestry is certainly evident in Y-chromosome haplogroups:

"The co-occurrence of the Berber E3b1b-M81 (2.12%) and of the Mid-Eastern J1-M267 (3.81%) Hgs together with the presence of E3b1a1-V12, E3b1a3-V22, E3b1a4-V65 (5.5%) support the hypothesis of intrusion of North African genes...

The Hg E3b1b-M81, widely diffused in northwestern African populations, is estimated to contribute to the Sicilian gene pool at a rate of 6%. The distribution of E3b1b-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the areas of distribution of Berber speaking populations, suggesting close Hg-ethnicity specificity...

And there are indications of genetic influence from Lebanon (perhaps due to Phoenician settlements in Western Sicily):
Furthermore Q-P36- or M242-derived chromosomes also detected significant similarities between Sicily (2.54%) and Lebanese populations (1.53%)...

Source: DiGaetano et al., "Differential Greek and northern African migrations to Sicily are supported by genetic evidence from the Y chromosome," European Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 17, 91–99.

However, the same Y-chromosome results indicate that Greek ancestry (in Eastern Sicily, indicated by haplogroup E3b1a2-V13), western European and pre-Greek Neolithic ancestry (in Western Sicily, indicated by R1b and I haplogroups, and the DYS445-6 deletion in haplogroup J2 respectively), are more important than North African or post-Neolithic Near Eastern ancestry.

[Rhobot]

While phenotype is a pretty poor guide to actual ancestry, the pictures tell you that Sicilians are pretty variable in how they look. You have people that are indistinguishable from Northwestern Europeans, and people who are indistinguishable from Middle Easterners. Most people are in between (like Greeks and other Italians.)

[chap]

Lundman:


The island of Sardinia is strongly Mediterranid in race and has in the interior many Berid strains. Corsica is mostly Mediterranid. Sicily is similar in anthropological structure. But according to its history it contains a greater mixture of races. These include, among others, Armenids, but also "African" strains, et al. Southernmost Italy possesses a similar mixture of races, but with a still strong Mediterranean component. In Campania, which is an old Etruscan colony, we likewise encounter not a few Armenid and also Arabid strains.

Central Italy is a mixture of Mediterranean and Alpine with Nordid and other strains. There are Litorid elements in old Etruria, the Tuscany of today. In this part of Italy we also find a somewhat higher frequency of blood type gene q.

Further to the north in Italy we have on the western side around Lucca again an evidently strong island of long-headed Mediterraneans. To the east in the Romagna region we find an East-Alpine-Dinarid mixture. A similar anthropological structure is found in the Po-Valley. This region, however, has a higher frequency of blood type gene q than the Romagna region. This may be due to early Etruscan settlements.

In the mountainous areas surrounding the Po-Valley, more Nordid blood is present. This is especially noticeable in the relatively malaria-free regions, situated more than 300 meters above sea level. Finally, a small Mediterranean racial and climatic island is found around Lake Garda.

[NorthernGoddess]

I'm a bit confused as to why this question has been posted. I've belonged to European heritage groups most of my adult life and actually founded a very successful (non-cyber) one, and the question as to whether Italians are white or not has never been addressed. I have to add that I have a degree in history and, again, this issue has never come up in lectures, research or anywhere else.

Arabs conquered Sicily solely (not the Southern mainland). They ruled only 150 years. At that time, there was a tiny immigration from North Africa (much more immigration of modern blacks to European countries today). After that brief rule, Sicily was conquered by Vikings in about 1000 BC. Gemanic tribes conquered the Southern mainland and made it into somewhat of a "Germanic Kingdom". All the muslims that were left in Sicily were killed.

Southern Italy is white. If there are some that remain with "Arabic" features, it may be from more modern mixing like in other European countries, America, Canada, etc.

I didn't read all the mosts here but scanned some of them. Someone mentioned that Italy has the highest African admixture than any other country in Europe. That's completely untrue. It's actually Portugal with more than a 10 percent admixture in the Southern portion of the country. The highest African admixture of Italy is in Sicily and that's still less than 2 percent (at, I believe, 1.6 percent). Most of Southern Italy is well less than 1 percent or zero percent. Germany (at .18 percent) has more than some places in Southern Italy with zero.

Many European countries have traces of African or Asian admixture. Finland has the blondest people in the world with the highest Asian DNA of any European country. Yet, Finnish people are still white. And Southern Italians (and Portuguese) are, too. :D

[thorsblot]

One of my friends who I grew up with is Half Scottish, and Half Sicilian.

He is so dark that we have our whole lives called him "Black Arab" or just "arab" for short. Though he has his father's "keltic-nordid" skull structure and height, to go with the dark mediterranean pigmentation and temperament.

He doesn't fit in here at all, despite being half-Australian.

On the other hand, whilst on holiday in SE Asia, there was a pretty blonde girl in a shop whom I assumed was Australian or English, she was a textbook Anglo-Saxon type. I was thus amazed when what was obviously her father came in, and they started conversing in Italian.

[Rhobot]

In some genetic studies (Bauchet et al 2007), European genetic stratification follows a north-southeast trend, and southern Italians and Greeks seem to cluster with eastern Mediterranean populations (including Armenians and Jews).
This clustering is probably a reflection of Neolithic demic diffusion from the Near East, which was much stronger there than in western or northern Europe, followed by later migrations of people with strong eastern Mediterranean ancestry (e.g. the Greek colonization of south Italy.)

Italy is very genetically diverse; the same study showed some Italians clustering with northern and northwestern Europeans and others clustering with eastern Mediterranean populations. Maybe it isn't a surprise that Italians are phenotypically diverse as well.

As for African ancestry, I have already mentioned that sub-Saharan ancestry is very low in Sicily (2% or so). North African ancestry is higher. About 6-8% of male lineages in Sicily as a whole are probably of Maghrebi origin (Di Gaetano et al 2009).
Anyway, one shouldn't make too much of this:
1) North Africans are primarily Caucasoid, although there is substantial sub-Saharan genetic influence in the region.
2) North African ancestry is probably higher in Iberia than anywhere in Italy.

As for Bauchet et al, considering the European and non-European groups, he found that the European populations (along with Ashkenazi Jews and Armenians) formed a distinct cluster when compared with other populations from central and south Asia, eastern Africa, and, to a lesser extent, Middle East and North Africa.
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/bautel-761665.jpg
As for whether the cluster in the lower left-hand corner corresponds to "white people", you decide for yourself.

Bauchet et al, Measuring European Population Substructure with Microarray Genotype Data (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17436249)

DiGaetano et al, Differential Greek and northern African migrations to Sicily are supported by genetic evidence from the Y chromosome (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/abs/ejhg2008120a.html)

[Goidelic]

Sicilians, Southern Italians, Maltese, Sardinians and the Spanish/Portuguese represent the most Moorish/Arab/Saharan influenced places of Europe. One must not need to go that far back in their genealogy to find many 17th or 18th century Maghrebs/Moors/Saharans. There are of course few exceptions with the ones relatively unmixed or conquered.

[Electronic God-Man]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2iS8XctJKo

[NorthernGoddess]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2iS8XctJKo



There are a lot of blacks running around England claiming to be English, too. Just because Croce was an Italian who looked Arabic doesn't mean he was an ethnic Italian, just like English blacks aren't ethnic English. It's all over Europe, not exclusive to Italy.

[NorthernGoddess]

Sicilians, Southern Italians, Maltese, Sardinians and the Spanish/Portuguese represent the most Moorish/Arab/Saharan influenced places of Europe. One must not need to go that far back in their genealogy to find many 17th or 18th century Maghrebs/Moors/Saharans. There are of course few exceptions with the ones relatively unmixed or conquered.


Yes, it's the same with the Finnish and some other Scandinavian populations who have some Asian admixture. High in some areas, low in other areas, non-existent in most but it is there nonetheless. And, still, Scandinavians, of course, are white. And so are ethnic Italians. Anyone of indo-European descent (ethnic) is white. The vast majority of Italians are of indo-European heritage as well as the vast majority of Scandinavians.

[Electronic God-Man]

There are a lot of blacks running around England claiming to be English, too. Just because Croce was an Italian who looked Arabic doesn't mean he was an ethnic Italian, just like English blacks aren't ethnic English. It's all over Europe, not exclusive to Italy.


Don't know why you thought I was saying anything like that.

I just enjoy Jim Croce's music.

[NorthernGoddess]

One of my friends who I grew up with is Half Scottish, and Half Sicilian.

He is so dark that we have our whole lives called him "Black Arab" or just "arab" for short. Though he has his father's "keltic-nordid" skull structure and height, to go with the dark mediterranean pigmentation and temperament.

He doesn't fit in here at all, despite being half-Australian.

On the other hand, whilst on holiday in SE Asia, there was a pretty blonde girl in a shop whom I assumed was Australian or English, she was a textbook Anglo-Saxon type. I was thus amazed when what was obviously her father came in, and they started conversing in Italian.



Exactly my point. The blonde, obviously, was an ethnic Italian while the other was a mix. In England, you will find ethnic English and bi-racial English as well. Nationality and race are two different things. Assuming that someone who is from Italy is ethnic Italian isn't accurate. And a surname wouldn't be accurate either. People take surnames of their host country. Look at how many Jews have German surnames. Look at how many blacks have English surnames. And so on . . .

[NorthernGoddess]

Don't know why you thought I was saying anything like that.

I just enjoy Jim Croce's music.



Oh, I guess it was just the thread. Sorry. LOL! I enjoy his music, too. :D

[Loyalist]

Exactly my point. The blonde, obviously, was an ethnic Italian while the other was a mix. In England, you will find ethnic English and bi-racial English as well. Nationality and race are two different things. Assuming that someone who is from Italy is ethnic Italian isn't accurate. And a surname wouldn't be accurate either. People take surnames of their host country. Look at how many Jews have German surnames. Look at how many blacks have English surnames. And so on . . .

What makes your argument entirely invalid is that we're not talking about "bi-racial" individuals, we're talking about those who belong to the indigenous ethnic group of their nation of origin. You're asserting that an individual who appears non-European, or at least highly atypical for their respective ethnicity, musn't be assumed to be mono-ethnic. That's laughable at best. Furthermore, I'm stunned that you could be so ignorant as to contrast Jewish and Negro immigrants to England and Germany, placing them in with the native populace, to swarthy Italians in an effort justify the appearance of the latter, and thus their right to have a place among us.

Here are some photos of unmixed Italians, starting with a clear shot of the Italian-American Jim Croce.

http://i43.tinypic.com/ivlcg5.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/oaayit.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/2r5x7ux.jpg http://i44.tinypic.com/b9820y.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/vi39s4.jpg

[Treffie]

Here are some photos of unmixed Italians, starting with a clear shot of the Italian-American Jim Croce.

http://i43.tinypic.com/ivlcg5.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/oaayit.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/2r5x7ux.jpg http://i44.tinypic.com/b9820y.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/vi39s4.jpg

Sorry Loyalist, but cherry picking individuals doesn't win this argument either.

[NorthernGoddess]

What makes your argument entirely invalid is that we're not talking about "bi-racial" individuals, we're talking about those who belong to the indigenous ethnic group of their nation of origin. You're asserting that an individual who appears non-European, or at least highly atypical for their respective ethnicity, musn't be assumed to be mono-ethnic. That's laughable at best. Furthermore, I'm stunned that you could be so ignorant as to contrast Jewish and Negro immigrants to England and Germany, placing them in with the native populace, to swarthy Italians in an effort justify the appearance of the latter, and thus their right to have a place among us.

Here are some photos of unmixed Italians, starting with a clear shot of the Italian-American Jim Croce.

http://i43.tinypic.com/ivlcg5.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/oaayit.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/2r5x7ux.jpg http://i44.tinypic.com/b9820y.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/vi39s4.jpg


You're not understanding. These Italians ARE mixed. If you read my other posts, you may be able to better understand. I could post picture after picture of Italians who are just as "white" as Northern Europeans. And I could post picture after picture of blond blue-eyed Scandinavians with Asian features such as slanted eyes, flat noses and rounded faces. The point I'm trying to make is that the MAJORITY of Italians ARE indo-European. The MAJORITY of Scandinavians ARE indo-European. But some are a product of Arabic, Negro and Asian admixture. If you don't believe that Italians have a place among us, then you must not believe that Finnish or Swedish do either because of the Asian admixture in certain parts of Finland and Sweden. Every, single European country has some kind of admixture from somewhere. Still, we're all white.

[Goidelic]

In fact, the Balkans seem to have more Nordish racial origin individuals than any place in Sicily or Southern Italy. This is probably because the Balkans was a place for mainly Turkic/Mongolid/Asian influence and more Slavic/Germanic/Celtic settlements. The rest of Southern Europe, preferably Southwestern Europe was a haven for Negroes to reside and repopulate the older indigenous Romance elements. Hardly anyone from Sicily has this type of particular look: Apparently this is a Sicilian woman, appears relatively unmixed and is of mainly older Romance/Celtic/Germanic survived bloodlines that most likely avoided mixing with the other majority alien Sicilian population. She looks to be mainly Dalofaelid with little Medish influence. I suspect the little Medish influence could be apparent in the eyebrows. I'd estimate her look less than 1% of the Sicilian or Southern Italian population. Looks to be a French Norman surviver.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4458/sicilian.jpg

[Loyalist]

Sorry Loyalist, but cherry picking individuals doesn't win this argument either.

It could be labelled cherry-picking if the proportion of Italians individuals resembling the subjects I posted was in the region of 1% or so, but in reality, it's much closer to a majority.


You're not understanding. These Italians ARE mixed. If you read my other posts, you may be able to better understand. I could post picture after picture of Italians who are just as "white" as Northern Europeans. And I could post picture after picture of blond blue-eyed Scandinavians with Asian features such as slanted eyes, flat noses and rounded faces. The point I'm trying to make is that the MAJORITY of Italians ARE indo-European. The MAJORITY of Scandinavians ARE indo-European. But some are a product of Arabic, Negro and Asian admixture. If you don't believe that Italians have a place among us, then you must not believe that Finnish or Swedish do either because of the Asian admixture in certain parts of Finland and Sweden. Every, single European country has some kind of admixture from somewhere.

Italians, along with Portuguese and Spaniards, are the most racially mixed people in Europe. Read my response to Trefelin; most Italians more or less resemble the swarthy individuals I posted, wheras I've yet to see a proper Scandinavian (Sami or those with significant Sami ancestry don't count) who has anything resembling proper Mongoloid features. Of course, a photo of Mika Häkkinen always turns up about now (and the argument there is what, a slightly "slanted" eye?). Unlike what you're implying, there is no corner of Italy where African and Middle Eastern genetic input hasn't reached. The Moors conquered the southern portions of the nation well over a thousand years ago; the Jews, Phoenicians, and Negro slaves where there even before that. That's nearly two millenia of populations with various types of non-European blood inter-marrying. There is no comparable statistic for Scandinavia, or any other portion of Northern Europe.


Still, we're all white.

No, we're not.

I would also recommend changing your signature, as Nordicist sentiment should be reserved for those who don't subscribe to a pan-European, Mediterranean-fetishist agenda.

[Rhobot]

Exactly my point. The blonde, obviously, was an ethnic Italian while the other was a mix. In England, you will find ethnic English and bi-racial English as well. Nationality and race are two different things. Assuming that someone who is from Italy is ethnic Italian isn't accurate. And a surname wouldn't be accurate either. People take surnames of their host country. Look at how many Jews have German surnames. Look at how many blacks have English surnames. And so on . . .

Doubt that the blonde was an ethnic Italian and the other was a mix. Most likely both were ethnic Italians.
A person who is Catholic, has an Italian name and is a native speaker of Italian is an ethnic Italian, whether they are blond and blue eyed, or olive-skinned, black-haired and aquiline-featured.

[Electronic God-Man]

It could be labelled cherry-picking if the proportion of Italians individuals resembling the subjects I posted was in the region of 1% or so, but in reality, it's much closer to a majority.

You must think we have never seen Italians in all our lives or that we are dumb or maybe both. I was raised Catholic, went to Church, went to Catholic schools for 9 years of my life, and have spent a good deal of time in Philadelphia...I know what Italians look like and the majority don't look like the ones you've posted.

I generally don't like doing this, because I think it proves nothing. But internet racialists seem to like it, so enjoy. I just googled terms like "Italian man", "Italian woman", "Italian immigrant", etc. I picked just about whatever came up excluding any that were nude or such.

These look like Italians to me.

http://barcelona.campusanuncios.com/picanuncio/empleo/empleo-1247596480.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04mydyV1Sy17x/610x.jpg
http://www.airninja.com/pictures/venice/italian_man.jpg
http://www3.jetro.go.jp/cgi/ttppoas/an_dsp.cgi?keyid=1092836&seq=1
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bYEE-K0aHQc/SBdSvHczcCI/AAAAAAAAMjE/SruMR2dnags/s400/Emanuele%2BFiore2.jpg
http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/LIFPOD/13051467~Italian-Man-Combing-His-Girlfriend-s-Hair-Posters.jpg
http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/LIFPOD/1218566~Italian-Man-Posters.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/luxsol2001/photo/francesco.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_267/121027941535Jg9E.jpg
http://blogphotos.flyingdreams.org/italianman.jpg
http://www.oakhotel.co.jp/english/italian%20woman.jpg
http://www.womanitalian.com/italianwomanglamour.jpg
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8234/412pxalessandranegriniqe1.jpg
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/fashion/images/img-beauty/debora-salvalaggio.jpg
http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/b/0/25/80/25080585_Federica_Ridolfi__11.jpg
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/fashion/img-beauty/manuela-arcuri.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41152000/jpg/_41152897_clementina203ap.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3196/3109329865_be957a099c.jpg
http://www.uncoached.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/monica-bellucci-picture-2.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/03/26/article-1164957-041B535B000005DC-944_468x642.jpg
http://ethnicity.lib.mtu.edu/resources/id=594846.jpg
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAEjourney.JPG
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ohr/31.1/images/scuro_fig02b.jpg
http://www.hsp.org/files/lorenzonweddingfinal2.jpg
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2008-08/41703372.jpg
http://feedingthepigeons.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/john_fante.jpg
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/5301/mardoffhw7.png
http://www.northendboston.com/history/ItalianImmigrants.jpg
http://www.montecitojournal.net/img.php?id=368&w=350
http://images-cdn01.associatedcontent.com/image/A4232/423239/300_423239.jpg

I also think that calling people "med-fetishists" when they try to argue against your beliefs about Italians is akin to the neo-Nazi White Nationalists calling anyone that disagrees with their views "Jews" or "Jew sympathizers".

[NorthernGoddess]

It could be labelled cherry-picking if the proportion of Italians individuals resembling the subjects I posted was in the region of 1% or so, but in reality, it's much closer to a majority.



Italians, along with Portuguese and Spaniards, are the most racially mixed people in Europe. Read my response to Trefelin; most Italians more or less resemble the swarthy individuals I posted, wheras I've yet to see a proper Scandinavian (Sami or those with significant Sami ancestry don't count) who has anything resembling proper Mongoloid features. Of course, a photo of Mika Häkkinen always turns up about now (and the argument there is what, a slightly "slanted" eye?). Unlike what you're implying, there is no corner of Italy where African and Middle Eastern genetic input hasn't reached. The Moors conquered the southern portions of the nation well over a thousand years ago; the Jews, Phoenicians, and Negro slaves where there even before that. That's nearly two millenia of populations with various types of non-European blood inter-marrying. There is no comparable statistic for Scandinavia, or any other portion of Northern Europe.



No, we're not.

I would also recommend changing your signature, as Nordicist sentiment should be reserved for those who don't subscribe to a pan-European, Mediterranean-fetishist agenda.



What a ridiculous post. Just because I'm defending Italians as being white, I should deny my Northern European heritage? Right! I, in no way, believe that Northern European people are "better" than Southern European people. And I can't understand why anyone who belongs on a EUROPEAN Preservation forum would feel that way. I think a neo-Nazi forum would be more your cup of tea.

And I will find and post several pictures of Scandinavians with the features I mentioned since you've never seen one (which I find hard to believe)! I could also post links, if you like, to prove my point. Unfortunately, I don't have time to search them tonight but I certainly will over the next day or two.

[Loyalist]

I knew when I opened this thread it would be one of my posts being quoted, and in it someone scrambling to defend the racial integrity of Italians. I wasn't disappointed. :rolleyes:


You must think we have never seen Italians in all our lives or that we are dumb or maybe both. I was raised Catholic, went to Church, went to Catholic schools for 9 years of my life, and have spent a good deal of time in Philadelphia...I know what Italians look like and the majority don't look like the ones you've posted.

I live in a city that has an unusually high Italian population. It's built around the steel and shipping industry, so naturally it was haven for uneducated Italian migrant workers flooding to Canada in the early 20th century. Of course there are variations in the appearances of ethnic Italians, but they all more or less follow the same pattern; brown eyes, thick and coarse black hair, olive or brown skin, a nose which is either "hawkish" or has wide, flat nostrils, short stature, and a greasy quality to skin and hair.

The irony is that the individuals you posted appear to be the ideal countrymen for the subjects I highlighted.


I also think that calling people "med-fetishists" when they try to argue against your beliefs about Italians is akin to the neo-Nazi White Nationalists calling anyone that disagrees with their views "Jews" or "Jew sympathizers".

No, I don't like the hypocrisy that is demonstrated by displaying a signature boasting about 100% Northern European ancestry, but at the same time the member concerned is insulting the racial quality of Northern nations in an effort to secure Italy's place in the European or white realm.

[Electronic God-Man]

Of course there are variations in the appearances of ethnic Italians, but they all more or less follow the same pattern; brown eyes, thick and coarse black hair, olive or brown skin, a nose which is either "hawkish" or has wide, flat nostrils, short stature, and a greasy quality to skin and hair.

So most Italians look like Mediterranean people. Who woulda thunk it? :confused:


The irony is that the individuals you posted appear to be the ideal countrymen for the subjects I highlighted.

Your selected "highlighting" is what is commonly referred to as "cherry-picking".


I knew when I opened this thread it would be one of my posts being quoted, and in it someone scrambling to defend the racial integrity of Italians. I wasn't disappointed.

So you thought everyone was just going to sit back and take what you said as truth? No one is "scrambling to defend the racial integrity of Italians" (whatever the hell that means)..more like trying to tell you your opinions are a little off.

[Loyalist]

What a ridiculous post. Just because I'm defending Italians as being white, I should deny my Northern European heritage? Right! I, in no way, believe that Northern European people are "better" than Southern European people.

Then why the "100 Percent Northern European Signature"? Why not simply "100 Percent European"? I don't see how or why you're making such a distinction, since we're no "better" than Southern Europeans. :rolleyes:


And I can't understand why anyone who belongs on a EUROPEAN Preservation forum would feel that way.

Then maybe you don't belong on a European Preservation forum? Or maybe, when reading the rules, you missed the part where Nordicism isn't banned at the Apricity.


I think a neo-Nazi forum would be more your cup of tea.

I think you'll find Anthroforum or Stirpes more your cup of tea. More so since your arguments themselves seem to change to suit your position in every post.


And I will find and post several pictures of Scandinavians with the features I mentioned since you've never seen one (which I find hard to believe)! I could also post links, if you like, to prove my point. Unfortunately, I don't have time to search them tonight but I certainly will over the next day or two.

Go ahead, it's been done before. :coffee:

[Electronic God-Man]

Then why the "100 Percent Northern European Signature"? Why not simply "100 Percent European"? I don't see how or why you're making such a distinction, since we're no "better" than Southern Europeans. :rolleyes:


Do people make distinctions only if they think that one is "better" than the other? Her ancestry comes from Northern Europe, simple as that.

[Loyalist]

So most Italians look like Mediterranean people. Who woulda thunk it? :confused:

That's the point; unmixed, or at least less-mixed, Europeans do not possess such alien phenotypes. The appearance of the standard Italian today is highly reflective of the genetic legacy left by centuries of invasion and migration from North Africa, the Middle East, and, to a lesser extent, sub-Saharan Africa. The subjects you and I posted would easily fit into Turkey, Algeria, Lebanon, or other regions on the fringes of the Caucasian realm, in many cases more so than they would in wider Europe.


Your selected "highlighting" is what is commonly referred to as "cherry-picking".

And so is the rebuttal, in which invariably, as has already been clarified,
photos of Scandinavians with "Mongoloid" features, or Armenoid Britons, or Dinaric Germans are posted to counter the Italian examples. This is always done without taking cognizance of the fact that the proportion of Italians who appear non-European massively outnumber their counterparts in Northern European; to put it simply, there is no comparison.


So you thought everyone was just going to sit back and take what you said as truth? No one is "scrambling to defend the racial integrity of Italians" (whatever the hell that means)..more like trying to tell you you're opinions are a little off.

No, on the contrary, I'm used to the cold reception the views of myself and like-thinking members of this forum get when it comes to this matter. Then again, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting if everyone took the same stance.

[Electronic God-Man]

That's the point; unmixed, or at least less-mixed, Europeans do not possess such alien phenotypes. The appearance of the standard Italian today is highly reflective of the genetic legacy left by centuries of invasion and migration from North Africa, the Middle East, and, to a lesser extent, sub-Saharan Africa. The subjects you and I posted would easily fit into Turkey, Algeria, Lebanon, or other regions on the fringes of the Caucasian realm, in many cases more so than they would in wider Europe.

OK. The phenotypes exhibited in Italy are alien compared to what? To the average Northern European phenotype? Average Northern European phenotypes are alien to the normal Southern European phenotype. And I bet you would agree that there is a difference between Eastern European and Western European phenotypes broadly speaking as well.

So what do we end up with? Regional variations. Is that unexpected or even undesired?

[Loyalist]

OK. The phenotypes exhibited in Italy are alien compared to what? To the average Northern European phenotype? Average Northern European phenotypes are alien to the normal Southern European phenotype. And I bet you would agree that there is a difference between Eastern European and Western European phenotypes broadly speaking as well.

So what do we end up with? Regional variations. Is that unexpected or even undesired?

Northern and North-Western Europeans, by virtue of having the least non-European admixture of any region in the continent, are more truly reflective of the appearance of proper Europeans than the inhabitants of areas whose populations mixed with outsiders on a large scale. Regional variations in appearance do not explain racially Negroid individuals being born into indigenous European ethnic groups.

[Electronic God-Man]

Northern and North-Western Europeans, by virtue of having the least non-European admixture of any region in the continent, are more truly reflective of the appearance of proper Europeans than the inhabitants of areas whose populations mixed with outsiders on a large scale. Regional variations in appearance do not explain racially Negroid individuals being born into indigenous European ethnic groups.

I think most of the phenotype variation is due to regional and environmental variation. I don't think that Sicilians or Greeks, for example, were ever a majority blonde and blue-eyed people that through mingling with non-Europeans became darker people. Is that what you believe?

[Rhobot]

I think most of the phenotype variation is due to regional and environmental variation. I don't think that Sicilians or Greeks, for example, were ever a majority blonde and blue-eyed people that through mingling with non-Europeans became darker people. Is that what you believe?

I think that blond hair and blue eyes originated in northeastern Europe after the last Ice Age. I don't think they were ever prevalent in southern Europe.
Cochran and Harpending write about this in the 10,000 Year Explosion.
The non-Europeans (Near Easterners and North Africans) with whom the people of Italy and Greece mixed were largely Caucasoid, and the majority of this mixing seems to have occurred in prehistory.

As for phenotypes, I don't know what to say. In this regard, there is certainly more overlap between southern Italians and Near Easterners than between northwestern Europeans and Near Easterners. Duhhh.
This is entirely predictable based on environment, geographical proximity, and, yes, gene flow (whether 9000 years ago, 3000 years ago or 1000 years ago).

As for whether this makes southern Italians non-white or non-European, of course it doesn't. People like Loyalist etc need to learn that Nordics and Anglo-Saxons are not the end-all and be-all of European civilization.

[SwordoftheVistula]

So what do we end up with? Regional variations. Is that unexpected or even undesired?

Isn't that what races are, on a larger scale? Whatever you call it, I think these 'regional variations' should be kept seperate and preserved

[Spaniard_Truth]

Yes, North Italians at least are European in appearance. I've never been to Southern Italy so I can't vouch for them. In the north, though, the people are quite pale and have refined features. Most of them looked no different from the Italians we see in Roman busts.

The younger generation seemed to be slightly less impressive racially. I believe this is due to significant south to north migration in recent years. And one must also keep in mind that northern Italy has been affected by immigration as much as any other place in Western Europe. Not everyone in Italy who speaks Italian is necessarily ethnic Italian.

[Electronic God-Man]

Not everyone in Italy who speaks Italian is necessarily ethnic Italian.

I want to be sure I understand what is meant by this sentence above. It's been said at least one other time in this thread. Care to elaborate?

Of course some Ethiopian that recently immigrated to Italy and speaks Italian is not ethnically Italian. It's the same situation as in England, Germany, France, or anywhere in Northern Europe. But I don't think this is what is really being said here.

[Loddfafner]

Here are some observations I posted elsewhere of Italian Americans as an integral part of the white component of a large multiracial city and as a distinctly foreign tribe:


In Praise of Italians

Much of the remaining white population of Philadelphia is actually Italian. They can seem foreign. In their tastes for gardening with plastic flowers and for public displays of emotion, they are closer to blacks than to Germanics. Their tendency towards wild swings from extremes of wifebeaters and haircurlers to tuxedos, dresses, and limousines is just as strange. Yet, they managed to dig in and hold on to many of their neighborhoods while other whites fled the city.

The Italian Market evokes European open air clusters of fruit stands and small butcher shops. Many of the hawkers are now Vietnamese or Mexican, but at one end of the market, Geno's cheese-steak stand is notorious for its rebel flags and its sign demanding that customers order in English even if its owner's slang-studded dialect may not necessarily qualify. At the other end of the market is Christian Street, named after Queen Christina from Sweden's half-hearted effort to rule this area.

While too many Germanics have lost our folk culture and pride in our heritage, the Italians maintain traditions that evoke the best of peasant life. In Philly that is especially apparent around New Years. New Years Eve I attended a party in deep South Philly. At midnight, neighbors hauled out their Christmas trees and built furtive bonfires at the intersections. I looked up and down the streets in each direction and saw bonfires or fireworks at each one as far as I could see. They cleaned up fast afterwards as the cops were supposed to clamp down on these practices.

The next day was Philly's famous Mummers Parade. Think Fred Flintstone in drag multiplied by a few thousand. Supposedly, it is a tradition that dates back to the Swedish settlers in which men would dress in their wives' clothing to scare off evil spirits. I've asked a few Swedes about it; none recognized any such custom.

The overall spirit evokes Mardi Gras. Contingents in the parade were dressed outlandishly and staggered or strutted down Broad Street playing music or performing skits, many of which were refreshingly politically incorrect what with the crudest of ethnic stereotypes. Several celebrated the victory of the Phillies in the World Series, others mocked the bailouts as they passed out monopoly money to the cheering crowds. The audience itself included characters who unselfconsciously seemed to walk out of some mob movie with their cigars and greased-back pompadours.

It is a carnival in the old sense of a day where such basic laws as those on the drinking age and open containers are ignored, resulting in rivers of drunken, chainsmoking teenagers from South Jersey. In the chaos, one performer keeled over of a heart attack in front of the main reviewing stand. After the main parade, the contingents returned to their clubhouses in a drunken, disorderly approximation of the parade down Two Street, a narrow, almost medieval alley between rowhouses. Sporadic fights broke out. It was not entirely an Italian affair: there were noticeable pluralities of Irish and Poles.

In comparison with this folk carnival, my efforts at reviving Germanic celebrations feel artificial and forced. Until we re-awaken our folk, I have to vicariously look to the Italians to show what folkishness could be.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Yes, North Italians at least are European in appearance. I've never been to Southern Italy so I can't vouch for them.

You see more 'darker' types the further south you go, especially around Naples

[Osweo]

That's the point; unmixed, or at least less-mixed, Europeans do not possess such alien phenotypes.
Ugly weird looking people are found everywhere in Europe. I'd even say especially in Britain! :p

The subjects you and I posted would easily fit into Turkey, Algeria, Lebanon, or other regions on the fringes of the Caucasian realm, in many cases more so than they would in wider Europe.
Even I might. (I've been addressed in Arabic in Cairo, by a Sudanese who thought I was from Lebanon.. :eek::rolleyes:) What does this prove? Call me non-European, or try to restrict me and those like me in any way, and you won't get very far. You might even end up with some delightful Italian crafted concrete shoes... :wink

the proportion of Italians who appear non-European massively outnumber their counterparts in Northern European; to put it simply, there is no comparison.
They look 'foreign' to you. Stop trying to dress it up in pseudoscientific dress. You don't really like the look of them. Well so what, that's your business. You don't want them in your family, again fine. But it seems as if you don't want them in Europe, or in Italy, which most certainly is THEIR business. I fail to see what business it is of yours to root into their ancestry as far as Google allows you, coming out with statements of political import.

[jerney]

Look at this swarthy Italian baby!

http://i44.tinypic.com/2eybb5f.jpg

[Loyalist]

Ugly weird looking people are found everywhere in Europe. I'd even say especially in Britain! :p

England to be specific.


Even I might. (I've been addressed in Arabic in Cairo, by a Sudanese who thought I was from Lebanon.. :eek::rolleyes:) What does this prove? Call me non-European, or try to restrict me and those like me in any way, and you won't get very far. You might even end up with some delightful Italian crafted concrete shoes... :wink

To the untrained eye anyone could be mistaken for anything. I've been asked if I was German, and mistaken for a Russian by an Afghan. I'm not too bothered by what nationals of Afghanistan or Sudan think.


They look 'foreign' to you. Stop trying to dress it up in pseudoscientific dress. You don't really like the look of them. Well so what, that's your business. You don't want them in your family, again fine. But it seems as if you don't want them in Europe, or in Italy, which most certainly is THEIR business. I fail to see what business it is of yours to root into their ancestry as far as Google allows you, coming out with statements of political import.

I support the humane repatriation of Italians to North Africa.


Look at this swarthy Italian baby!

http://i44.tinypic.com/2eybb5f.jpg

He has a deceitful, sleazy look to him. There also seems to be an excess of grease in his hair, not to mention the presence of the stubby arms and legs that account for the short stature so characteristic of Italians.

Why not post the picture of your great-grandmother, which I know you have, and who looks like a Moor if I recall correctly.

[Loki]

He has a deceitful, sleazy look to him. There also seems to be an excess of grease in his hair, not to mention the presence of the stubby arms and legs that account for the short stature so characteristic of Italians.

Why not post the picture of your great-grandmother, which I know you have, and who looks like a Moor if I recall correctly.

Pathetic.

[jerney]

He has a deceitful, sleazy look to him. There also seems to be an excess of grease in his hair, not to mention the presence of the stubby arms and legs that account for the short stature so characteristic of Italians.

Why not post the picture of your great-grandmother, which I know you have, and who looks like a Moor if I recall correctly.

Yes, children are born deceitful and sleazy looking! So stubby that he grew up to be 6'1

I've never posted my great grandmother's photo, but it is a bit ironic your ~superior~ ancestors all look swarthier than mine, even the Italian ones lol

[Loyalist]

Yes, children are born deceitful and sleazy looking!

Apparently it's inherent in Italy.


So stubby that he grew up to be 6'1

That would be the English blood showing through; lucky for him he was a half-caste.


I've never posted my great grandmother's photo...

Yes, you have. It's up at Skadi in a thread where you requested multiple ancestors to be classified. I no longer have access to that section, but in the photo she's sitting in a chair I believe. Anyway, I still recall the shock of her profound swarthiness when I viewed the thread.


...but it is a bit ironic your ~superior~ ancestors all look swarthier than mine, even the Italian ones lol

Nice try, but at the end of the day none of my ancestors were Sicilians or German Catholics who likely descended from Jewish converts.

[Absinthe]

LMAO - my great great grandfather can beat up your great great grandfather!! :D :lol: :rofl:

[Loki]

Yes, you have. It's up at Skadi in a thread where you requested multiple ancestors to be classified. I no longer have access to that section, but in the photo she's sitting in a chair I believe. Anyway, I still recall the shock of her profound swarthiness when I viewed the thread.


Your obsession with jerney's family is a personal insult to her and thus unacceptable. It is one thing to hold opinions about Italians -- you're entitled to that. But insulting another member in this way, and ridiculing her family, is not allowed on here. Please take note of that.

[Loyalist]

Your obsession with jerney's family is a personal insult to her and thus unacceptable. It is one thing to hold opinions about Italians -- you're entitled to that. But insulting another member in this way, and ridiculing her family, is not allowed on here. Please take note of that.

That's no more "insulting" than this.


but it is a bit ironic your ~superior~ ancestors all look swarthier than mine, even the Italian ones lol

[Loki]

That's no more "insulting" than this.

That was her response to yours ... did you expect her to praise your comment? In any case this is not open for discussion. I'm off to bed and you will not continue with your unprovoked attack on jerney.

[Loyalist]

I won't continue with any involvement in this thread in general. While amusing, I also Italophilia among non-Italians greatly disturbing.

[jerney]

Yes, you have. It's up at Skadi in a thread where you requested multiple ancestors to be classified. I no longer have access to that section, but in the photo she's sitting in a chair I believe. Anyway, I still recall the shock of her profound swarthiness when I viewed the thread.

Says the person who has a grandmother that looks at least as Italian as my own Italian great grandmother :rolleyes:


Nice try, but at the end of the day none of my ancestors were Sicilians or German Catholics who likely descended from Jewish converts.

lolol. I hope phleg knows he's really a Jew too.

You can spew all the hatred you want, but at least I actually look Germanic whereas you could pass for being from the Balkans.

[John in Denver]

Some pictures from Trapani, Sicily.

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4086&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1268377617

This girl is obviously a descendant of a Berber.

[poiuytrewq0987]

You can spew all the hatred you want, but at least I actually look Germanic whereas you could pass for being from the Balkans.

Edit. I posted a reply to a year-old post, never mind.

[Tabiti]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4086&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1268377617

This girl is obviously a descendant of a Berber.
Quite typical Southern European kid if you ask me.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Quite typical Southern European kid if you ask me.

She doesn't really look like a typical SE kid to me. :)

[Don]

Why all the threads with the construct "white" are made by people of USA?

Many of them -we all know that- aren't really the ones to teach europeans about culture or racial issues, neither to question the europeanism of Italians or other Old Europeans since they are foreigners to Europe whose most of the knowledge about europe is made in Hollywood -jewish antieuropean-.

Of course I will not insist about the question that not all americans are like that. In this forum we have some examples of "free" in educational level and high culture of those Criollos who surely understand perfectly my statement and support, in some manner, it.

"Whites"... Curious.

[John in Denver]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4086&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1268377617

This girl is obviously a descendant of a Berber.

From what i understand Berbers are from N.Africa a stone's throw from Trapani so you might be right, and since everyone has a different view of them do you believe the little girl is race-mixed? and if so can you point out the markers?

[Foxy]

Hi,
I am Italian and I have read some very stupid comments from a user who has been banned, so, not prob.
The skintone of Italian people goes from 0 to 15th, the Semites (Arabs, Northern Africans and Co.) have a skintone which goes from 20 to 40th, so there is a big difference between Italians and Arabs.
I live in central Italy and have a very pale skin, though I have black hair and eyes. My bf is very tall (196 cm), blonde and with green eyes.
There are some people very light and others who are darker, there are also many immigrants now, so you have first to be sure that you are talking about REAL Italians.
When I and my bf went to Berlin, last summer, people often asked him if he was Germans, and when we went to locals, we were asked if we were French or English. In short I think that there are so many stereotypes about Italian look that now foreigners often don't recognize real Italians, when they have very light skin they are soon thought to belong to "any other european ethnicity".

Also about the difference between Northern and Southern Italians: Northern tend to be lighter, but they are not a total differen race. Most Northern Italians are brunettes aswell, some with dark skin too. What changes is the percentage of dark complexion diffusion.
An other prejudge is about the darkness of Sicilians. The darkerst people of Italy are not Sicilians but Sardes, though most of them belong to the haplogroup I (This is to show that the belonging to an haplogroup doesn't mean that you are blond/dark and that there is not connection between the haplogroup and the phenotype).

Sicily is a region with a special Status in Italy. Sicilians and Sards constitute an own ethnicity, indeed the same Italians joke about the darkness of Sicilians and Sardes (Apulians are dark too anyway).
Sicilians and Apulians descend in large part from Greeks, whereas in central Italy most people descend from Romans and in North from Celts.
In the time we received many immigrations, but not from South, but from North. Vandals, Ostrogotes, Vikings, Longobards and Franks were all germanic tribes that through the time arrived in Italy and mixed. Arabs were defeated and send out from Sicily and southern Italy by Normans in XII century and their domination of Sicily lasted 1 century only.
Turkish never had a domination of Italy, the only people which for longer dominated Italy were the Bizantines (Greeks).
Italy also stayed for almost 1000 years under germanic domination, before of Ostrogotes, then of Longobards, endly under the Holy Roman Empire.

I am not saying that we are Germans, but that culturally we received strong germanic influxes in Middle Age, that's why we have wonderful gotic cathedrals in Italy (overall in the North), many words with germanic roots in modern Italian and also some people very blond and with the typical nordic features.

So, to conclude, people don't have to confuse Sicilians, Apulians and Sardinians who went abroad for the whole Italian population, though there are some Sicilians and Apulians very blonde (becouse, strangly, they are the region where the Norman domination happed), whereas in Sardinia blond/light hair almost inexistent.
Clooney's gf, Elisabetta Canalis, for istance, is Sardinian, and all the mafiouses emigrated to the USA were from Sicily.

[The Ripper]

kkrHYHqChlI

[Piparskeggr]

I am Southern Italian on my mom's side; Abruzzi, Molise and Campagnia being the modern provinces from which I can easily claim descent.

None of her "side" are especially dark and their hair and eye color run the gamut of those identified with European heritage.

She and one of her sisters has dark brown hair as does one of her brothers. Her other sister has honey-blond hair. Her other brother had light brown hair.

Mom has brown eyes, as does one brother (like my grandfather D'Orazio). Both of her sisters and her younger brother; blue eyes (like my grandmother D'Orazio [nee Mastroianni]).

An aside: my wife is 100% Greek (but may have some Vlach and Belarusian way back). She is "whiter" than me (very fair complexion), has aged-amber blond hair (which was golden when she was little) and blue eyes.

When my great grand parents came to the US before WW One, southern Italians were not considered "white," neither were my Irish ancestors when they came over in the 1st half of the 19th century.

[Osweo]

The skintone of Italian people goes from 0 to 15th, the Semites (Arabs, Northern Africans and Co.) have a skintone which goes from 20 to 40th,
Surely there are not too few Arabs who fall in the lighter range too? Never mind the Semitic Ashkenazi, who often manage a '0'.

The darkerst people of Italy are not Sicilians but Sardes, though most of them belong to the haplogroup I ...
whereas in Sardinia blond/light hair almost inexistent.
Interesting... I did teacher-training with a Sardinian girl, once. I wish I had taken a photo of her, as she was quite peculiar in features. She was very attractive, but with a kind of skull structure I'd never seen before. Very robust, indeed, though she was quite short and slender in other respects.

I read once that while the Basques keep the language of Mesolithic western Europe, the Sardes best preserve its physical type. :chin: Are we to assume from this that haplogroup I was once more widespread in the Atlantic facade, then?

Clooney's gf, Elisabetta Canalis, for istance, is Sardinian
LOL, I'm far darker myself, even despite photoshop etc.!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nSknY8_CNcM/RvGdyHd8t1I/AAAAAAAAASQ/L0ref2a8b58/s320/elisabetta%2BCanalis%2B-%2Bvieri.png

[Amapola]

Bah..
Those who didn't consider the Italians white, for the sake of the White race you like to defend, thank God Italians have been considered traditionally as such, ;)

[Tyrrhenoi]

I also think that a certain level of respect needs to be given to Italy or Spain. They fought these arabs!.. The domination of other europeans in Italy
does not bother me at all, the Italians beiing discribed as arabs ... well this does bother me.

On the mainland of Italy the Islamic presence was ephemeral. Arabs were there for a few decades (850-870?), they stayed in soldier camps and not in cities. And as RomanQueen already said the Byzantines back then were Greeks! Before the Roman Empire became powerful, Greeks already dominated southern-Italy. Naples was fouded by greeks - for example - the name Naples comes from Neapolis which means Newcity.

Iberia -Sicily -Sardinia were dominated by arabs for centuries! I think this is a whole different story!

I saw some pictures on this thread of a southern-italian girl (sicilian), classified as north african (said by some macedonian, I think?). Anyway it really breaks my hart... Yes, ethnical she could be of arab descendants. But I think it's trash-talk, the italic people fought the arabs and prevented they could expand their empire through all of Europe! Remember this!:coffee:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Garigliano_(915)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_League_(1571)

[Foxy]

Surely there are not too few Arabs who fall in the lighter range too? Never mind the Semitic Ashkenazi, who often manage a '0'.


I was referring not to the Jews emigrated in Europe, but to the native peoples of the Arabic peninsula and of Northern Africa. Anyway you are right, there are some northern Africans populations who have a lighter skintone (Algerians and Tunisians), but, despite these exeption, it doesn't change the the darkest skintone that you can find in an Italian NATIVE is the 15th, but I guess how many people really have this skintone. From what I see everyday, most people have a medium tone, and some, like me, have a very light tone.



LOL, I'm far darker myself, even despite photoshop etc.!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nSknY8_CNcM/RvGdyHd8t1I/AAAAAAAAASQ/L0ref2a8b58/s320/elisabetta%2BCanalis%2B-%2Bvieri.png

Sards are an own race, I repeat. They are not like the other Italians, but in the complex they have cute features, you are right. I think that, though they are darker than Sicilians, for istance, they are cuter that these latter.
They are, in general, very short, more than the other Italians ( I am 171 cm and when I went in Sardinia I was as tall as the men, lol), and light hair diffusion is pretty inhexistent.
For exemple, this singer from Sardinia has the typical Sardinian look:

http://www.musicjam.it/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/1535535_marcocarta.jpg

[Foxy]

However it sounds pretty strange that the Americans discriminate Italians, becouse Rome has been for centuries nothing more nothing less than a sort of old USA and surely received many immigrated. But there are some points about which I'd like to put attention.

First of all Roman slaves were not black, different from the American slaves. Indeed Roman territory included no country of the sub-saharian stock.
http://www.voyagesphotosmanu.com/Complet/images/impero_romano_grecia.gif
Most slaves were from Europe, in particular the ones sold in Western Rome. Spartacus, for istance, was Thracian (modern Romanian), though most people think he was black.
Americans, complexively, have far more black ancestors that Romans and Italians.

An other useless theory is the one of people who say: "Italians descend in part from not-whites people becouse of the high number of slaves". Absolutely false. Romans took slaves from everypart of the empire (to become slave a person should be cought after a battle or he/she can lose freedom if he/she got into debts) and slaves were sold in every part of the empire too. So if old Italians had slaves, so did also old Frenchs, old Thracians, old Egyptians, old Germans and so on.

[Loki]

Hi,
I am Italian and I have read some very stupid comments from a user who has been banned, so, not prob.


Indeed, stupid people don't last very long on this forum. Well ... some do, but we have a reasonable cut-off level as far as retardation is concerned. :)

[Amapola]

... well this does bother me.

Just ignore them, whoever saying that Spaniards or Italians are Arabs (in any aspect) is showing an utter ignorance about what the Arab world is... so strikingly different than our Catholic Roman culture.

Plain ignorance.

[Don]

Originally Posted by RomanQueen
Hi,
I am Italian and I have read some very stupid comments from a user who has been banned, so, not prob.



Indeed, stupid people don't last very long on this forum. Well ... some do, but we have a reasonable cut-off level as far as retardation is concerned. :)



Originally Posted by RomanQueen

Alana, is it you the one in your pic? I thought you were a female...

(...)Better than your mom, surely...

(...)Spaniards are subhumans

(...)Spaniards are the Niggers of Europe

...

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/gift_of_disappointment.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_94h-YpOeJeA/SU9hT3zD-lI/AAAAAAAABbM/qo6737-Imyk/s400/decepcion.jpg

Just a problem of expectations. My fault. Already fixed, in the worst way, although.

Probably today I will make my goodbye post.
Surely tomorrow I will not be here anymore.

[Tyrrhenoi]

Just a problem of expectations. My fault. Already fixed, in the worst way, although.

Probably today I will make my goodbye post. Surely tomorrow I will not be here anymore.

Are you ' Cristiano perdo ' still on this forum?

- Cristiano -

- Where are the insults you made? WHORE - BITCH - BASTARD huh?

Where are those? You are a victim yes, you are a victim of your own arrogance.

'A enemigo que huye, puente de plata.'

[Aviane]

Are you ' Cristiano perdo ' still on this forum?

- Cristiano -

- Where are the insults you made? WHORE - BITCH - BASTARD huh?

Where are those? You are a victim yes, you are a victim of your own arrogance.

100% Agreed. :thumb001:

[Amapola]

....

[Vasconcelos]

Put it this way amigo, if you leave, you will be doing them a favour. :)

[Bridie]

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/gift_of_disappointment.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_94h-YpOeJeA/SU9hT3zD-lI/AAAAAAAABbM/qo6737-Imyk/s400/decepcion.jpg

Just a problem of expectations. My fault. Already fixed, in the worst way, although.

Probably today I will make my goodbye post.
Surely tomorrow I will not be here anymore.I don't get it. You're going to leave just because you've been offended? Cripes, if I had left any forum just because my people or myself had been attacked, I'd have lasted about 1 hour. :D EVERYONE gets attacked at some stage on these sorts of forums, it just comes with the territory. Pay it no mind and let your voice be heard.

Don't leave. :(

[Óttar]

Maltese is a Semitic language.

[Osweo]

Maltese is a Semitic language.

Hmm, that's analogous with posting 'Manx is a Goidelic language' in a thread called 'The English'... :D:p

[Aemma]

I don't get it. You're going to leave just because you've been offended? Cripes, if I had left any forum just because my people or myself had been attacked, I'd have lasted about 1 hour. :D EVERYONE gets attacked at some stage on these sorts of forums, it just comes with the territory. Pay it no mind and let your voice be heard.

Don't leave. :(

Well, let's hope he will return when he's reassessed the situation. :coffee:

[Piparskeggr]

I sent a PM asking that he consider a sabbatical, rather than unsubscribing...

[manu]

too bad Loyalist isn't posting anymore, I would have asked him how many of these team players are "white" according to his standards.

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02076.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02077.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02078.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02079.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02080.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02081.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02082.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02083.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02084.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02085.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02086.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02087.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02088.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02089.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02090.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02092.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02093.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02094.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02096.jpg

http://obfiles.kines.it.s3.amazonaws.com/clubs/204685/ERPR02075.jpg

[Foxy]

Are you ' Cristiano perdo ' still on this forum?

- Cristiano -

- Where are the insults you made? WHORE - BITCH - BASTARD huh?

Where are those? You are a victim yes, you are a victim of your own arrogance.

'A enemigo que huye, puente de plata.'

Thank you friend, but now let's ignore him and don't soil also this thread.

[Foxy]

Anyway saying that Italians are not white is dangerous also for other Europeans, becouse sometime I read some shits, like. for ex, that Romans were not-whites and that they spread not-white genes all over Europe and that today no European in entirely white. I think these are shits, just Afrocentric shit, but, you know, we are all on the same ship...
I really can't believe that people, especially Americans, thought that Italians are not white.
We can have very different look, for istance:

http://www.videocomunicazioni.com/uploads/2009/05/maria-mazza-3.jpg

http://www.kaleidosmanagement.com/foto/mazza/Immagine%201%20p.jpg

What have these 2 girls in common?
They both are Italian and both have even the same surname (Maria Mazza and Benedetta Mazza). The blonde one is from Lombardy, the brunette is born in the USA and I am neither sure that she is 100% Italian, but, let's think that she's pure Italian... You can't say what Italians are, becouse Italians are a very complex people, genetically, so every general speech is nothing but a stereotype.

Anyway they are both "excesses", as most girls in Italy have brown hair.

[Foxy]

An other exemple are these 2 girls: they are 2 Italian singers and are sisters, one is natural blond and an other natural raven hair.

http://musica.ecletticamente.eu/files/2009/09/paola_e_chiara.jpg

So Italians can differ very much not only from North to South (not so true becouse I know blond southerns and dark northerns), but even in the same family. So, are stereotypes still useful?

[Foxy]

An other thing I'd like to post... Watch it, it regards every person with dark eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9pq41xgYQI&feature=related

[San Galgano]

I know well who this loyalist is.
He's not white at all, forgive a wasp or a canadian and you can find him in Youtube with 2000(if not more) fakes.
He Is nothing a but a whites hater, and i could smell him from thousand miles.
He always use the same words, the same way to write the same insults.

He's a joke, in fact many people busted him as soon as he creates a new account over there because they know his way to abuse and his tacticts.
This idiot also replys to his own accounts to let people believe they are many.
He abused from english to germans, from french to greeks and spaniards but he has a "thing" for italians.

He's been caught to tell to another user of youtube: "don't trust white people".

[Foxy]

I know well who this loyalist is.
He's not white at all, forgive a wasp or a canadian and you can find him in Youtube with 2000(if not more) fakes.
He Is nothing a but a whites hater, and i could smell him from thousand miles.
He always use the same words, the same way to write the same insults.

He's a joke, in fact many people busted him as soon as he creates a new account over there because they know his way to abuse and his tacticts.
This idiot also replys to his own accounts to let people believe they are many.
He abused from english to germans, from french to greeks and spaniards but he has a "thing" for italians.

He's been caught to tell to another user of youtube: "don't trust white people".

Who are you referring to??

[Treffie]

We've got loads of people of Italian ancestry in Wales, a lot of them came from the town of Bardi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardi,_Italy) nr Bologna.

http://www.livefight.com/images/pages/1255697296Joe_Calzaghe.jpg

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Victor%20Spinetti.jpg

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01125/Enzo-Maccarinelli_1125451c.jpg

http://www.epifani.com/img/artist/palladino_b.jpg

http://img.skysports.com/07/11/218x298/DanielNardiello_599092.jpg

http://img.skysports.com/07/10/218x298/Robert_Sidoli_581997.jpg

http://www.bwwsociety.org/images/vicari/lehurlement.jpg

[San Galgano]

Who are you referring to??

I'm talking about Loyalist here and ItaliansAreBlacks over Youtube.
He's always the same, he basically pollutes every forum slandering italians, spaniards, germans, french and so on.

[Foxy]

I'm talking about Loyalist here and ItaliansAreBlacks over Youtube.
He's always the same, he basically pollutes every forum slandering italians, spaniards, germans, french and so on.

Don't care about, my fellow. I have read that Swedish aren't real white becouse they have Lapponic contaminations. Obviously I started to laugh so much that I had the stomachache.
I've never said that Spaniards aren't white either.

[Foxy]

We've got loads of people of Italian ancestry in Wales, a lot of them came from the town of

http://img.skysports.com/07/11/218x298/DanielNardiello_599092.jpg

Bla bla bla... let's be concrete... His telephon number please?? XD

[San Galgano]

Don't care about, my fellow. I have read that Swedish aren't real white becouse they have Lapponic contaminations. Obviously I started to laugh so much that I had the stomachache.
I've never said that Spaniards aren't white either.


i know Romanqueen, but since i have seen some italian haters jumping on his bandwagon i tought it was better inform them that he's not only abusing italians but almost all europeans including the north ones.

[Foxy]

i know Romanqueen, but since i have seen some italian haters jumping on his bandwagon i tought it was better inform them that he's not only abusing italians but almost all europeans including the north ones.

Yes you are very right. I started to dispute with Spaniards here becouse I read one of them writing that Italy has less landscapes and climates than Spanish and, THEN, that Italian people were also more omogenious in the look (false, to me it seems the contrary).
I wrote him that the only thing that Italy lacks compared to Spain is that desert called "Sierra Morena" (The desert of the Moores), but I was wrong: central Sardinia is desertic too, but has not Moorish influxes. :D:D

[San Galgano]

Yes you are very right. I started to dispute with Spaniards here becouse I read one of them writing that Italy has less landscapes and climates than Spanish and, THEN, that Italian people were also more omogenious in the look (false, to me it seems the contrary).
I wrote him that the only thing that Italy lacks compared to Spain is that desert called "Sierra Morena" (The desert of the Moores), but I was wrong: central Sardinia is desertic too, but has not Moorish influxes. :D:D


If there is a not homogenous country in Europe that is just Italy.
From phenotype to history of the various regions.

[Ibericus]

Yes you are very right. I started to dispute with Spaniards here becouse I read one of them writing that Italy has less landscapes and climates than Spanish
Which is true


I wrote him that the only thing that Italy lacks compared to Spain is that desert called "Sierra Morena" (The desert of the Moores),
LOL, Sierra Morena doesn't mean desert of the moors. First it's not a desert, it's a mountain. And Sierra Morena means Dark Mountains. ;) this is Sierra Morena :
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1719/solanapinoely4.jpg

[The Ripper]

Don't care about, my fellow. I have read that Swedish aren't real white becouse they have Lapponic contaminations. Obviously I started to laugh so much that I had the stomachache.
I've never said that Spaniards aren't white either.

Why would you care about being "white"?

[Foxy]

If there is a not homogenous country in Europe that is just Italy.
From phenotype to history of the various regions.

Watch what has Iberia answered and make some laugh...
^
|
|

I don't want to reopen the dispute, but for me... gatta ci cova.

[Foxy]

Why would you care about being "white"?

Me ne frego??? An Italian-Finnish??
It was to laugh. If Swedes are not white, I am Duffy Dack

[Ibericus]

Watch what has Iberia answered and make some laugh...
^
|
|

I don't want to reopen the dispute, but for me... gatta ci cova.

I never said Italy is homogeneus ethnically :confused:

[Curtis24]

So what region of Italy has the best looking women? ;)

[Furlan]

So what region of Italy has the best looking women? ;)

Good looking women are everywhere! It depends on your taste ;)

Look at post #202

[manu]

las chicas y las mujeres del norte son mas lindas if you ask my opinion but I might be biased.

[Foxy]

So what region of Italy has the best looking women? ;)

People say Veneto, but I think the central regions, simply becouse Monica Bellucci is from there and becouse they are the true Romans and own the classical beauty. I don't like Sicilian women anyway.

[safinator]

http://i.imgur.com/ExVpU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/n91se.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eyth7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1qY46.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qFbr2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jLhKs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XQrd9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Dbo6U.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nISsX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nxgBa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wSJJC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bo2JN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Mumnw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2LtlR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/c3eAm.jpg

[Xárszászát]

To all people who have read Loyalist:
Just to be clear, guys he evidently doesn't know anything about Italian history.
Just saying "Italy was occupied for centuries by Moors,Sub-saharans and Arabs" is an insult to history properly called.
Therefore, don't believe whatever he writes since he is clearly a kid who has read history on Mickey Mouse.

[Maximum Speed]

We've got loads of people of Italian ancestry in Wales, a lot of them came from the town of Bardi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardi,_Italy) nr Bologna.

http://img.skysports.com/07/11/218x298/DanielNardiello_599092.jpg


This man looks like me a lot


Sicilians, Southern Italians, Maltese, Sardinians and the Spanish/Portuguese represent the most Moorish/Arab/Saharan influenced places of Europe. One must not need to go that far back in their genealogy to find many 17th or 18th century Maghrebs/Moors/Saharans. There are of course few exceptions with the ones relatively unmixed or conquered.

On the other i do not know what to say, but you're wrong about the Sardinians.


Genetic peculiarities of the population

Sardinians are one of the most genetically isolated populations in Europe and, according to some studies, together along with the Basques represents an example of a pre-Indo-European population surviving in Europe from the Paleolithic period.[26][27]
Haplogroup I Distribution

While Sardinians do not constitute a homogeneous population from a genetic point of view, in comparison to other European populations, Sardinians are distinguished by genetic characteristics.[28]
Y-DNA

Distribution of Sardinian Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups in percentage according to Eupedia.[29]
Region I2 R1b G2a J2 J1 E1b1b T + (L) Q
Sardinia 37% 22% 15% 10% 2.5% 10% 1.5% 2%

About 42% of the Sardinians belong to Y-chromosome haplogroup I, which is otherwise frequently encountered only in Scandinavia, Northern Germany and the Croatia-Bosnia-Montenegro-Serbia area.

Furthermore, the I haplogroup of the indigenous Sardinians is of the I2a1 subtype (I-M26), which is almost unique to the island, though it takes origin in the Pyrenees region. The I2a1 haplogroup also has a low distribution around the Pyrenees, the Basque Country, Castile, the department of Béarn and Brittany in France, England, Sweden and Corsica. The second most common Y-chromosome haplogroup among Sardinian male population is the haplogroup R1b (22% of the total population) mainly present in the northern part of the island . Sardinia also has a relatively high distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup G (11%),[30] which is also found mainly in the Caucasus, the sardinian subtype of the Haplogroup G is closer to that one still present today in the Alps region, in particular Tyrol area. Ötzi the Iceman, the mummy of a man who lived about 3,300 BC found on the Alps in 1991 was discovered recently to be closely related genetically to modern Sardinians.
MtDNA
Origin of U5b3 Mdna Haplogroup

The most common mtDNA haplogroups in Sardinia are H (H1 and H3) and V who are also particularly common in the iberian peninsula.[31] Some subclades typical of Sardinia and rare in the rest of Europe are:

The subclade U5b3a1 of Haplogroup U (mtDNA) came from Provence to Sardinia by obsidian merchants, as it is estimated that 80% of obsidian found in France comes from Monte Arci in Sardinia reflecting the close relations that existed at one time for these two regions. Still about 4% of the female population in Sardinia belongs to this haplotype.[32] One other interesting anomaly is the presence of H13a of Haplogroup H (mtDNA) is present in the island at around 9.2%. As this is an extremely rare subclade normally present in the Caucasus, its worthy of further investigation. [33] [34]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_people

[Septentrion]

I couldn't decide where to start this thread so here it is. It was suggested to me after one of my recent posts to begin a thread dealing with others views on whether or not Italians are white.
So that being said here it is. I will not run this as a poll more just put down your opinion and let us see where this goes. Now guys and gals keep it civil please. I personally believe that Italians are just as white as the rest of the European population and have some good friends who die and have given up there lives to defend that ideal. But not everyone believes that way so again please keep it civil and debate your point of view.
Thanks and have fun with this thread it should be interesting.:D

It doesn't matter what you personally believe. The facts are that Italians are Europeans and Europeans are part of Europid/ Europoid race, which is interpreted as White/Whites in quite a few nations. For your information, not all Europeans are alike anyway. Whoever says that Italians "are not white/whites" is nothing but a fool. Italians are perfectly Southern Europeans.

[Septentrion]

People say Veneto, but I think the central regions, simply becouse Monica Bellucci is from there and becouse they are the true Romans and own the classical beauty. I don't like Sicilian women anyway.

Sicilian, Sardinians, Lombardians, Tuscans, Calabrians, etc... are all Italians!

[Joliemome]

It cracks me up, everytime I see WASP teenagers from the Colonies, boasting their pompous theories about mixed blood in Southern Europe, while their only contact with those cultures are 'The Sopranos' and 'My Big Fat Greek Wedding' :rolleyes:

I personally don't give a toss about what Italian communities in the U.S. or Australia are like. Any community, away from it's land, will turn into a different species, eventually. A caricature, if you may.

Much as I don't identify with 'Greek-Americans' or 'Greek-Australians', I only care to debate about Italians in Europe, and the issue of 'Whiteness' is ridiculous.

Italians/Romans are on of the nations that have contributed vastly to European civilization, and ironically enough, Western civilization at that. We are even using the latin font, ffs. And to be called 'niggers' and what not by ignorant teenagers from the other side of the world, is hilarious, to say the least.


What an utterly moronic and insulting statement, and please can people stop quoting that pathetic white history website. The fact is you have zero evidence (ps evidence is not classified as the rantings of a deranged nordicist on his personal website) that the current Italians are not virtually identical to the people who founded the Roman empire. The reality is, not just during the time of the Roman empire, but throughout history, up to the present day, the Italians have made a huge contribution to western civilization, and no insult meant, but a far greater contribution than the "purest" most nordic countries.

Also, the fact that a people have dark hair and eyes does not make them less European; the people generally accepted as the purest "Europeans" are the Basque people, and they are generally dark haired and dark eyed.


Ahahaha correct!!! Anglo Saxons always want do decide what's white and what's not, who's whiter and who's less white. US and UK have an arbitrary notion of “white”, based in part on stereotyping. America, in particular, has a long history of damaging ethnic and racial stereotypes.





http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/socialdiary/2006/03_27_06/images/JVCGottiAgnello_031806_2.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Pix_Anon/RealityTV/But%20Can%20They%20Sing/gotti2.jpg
http://www.glamorati.com/celebrity/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/frank-gotti-agnello.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/crime/1/0/h/c/gotti_john_jr.jpg




What people here don't want to understand is that these Italian-Americans would look "exotic" or aliens even to real Southern Italians. Most Southern Italians don’t look like this New Jersey’s offensive stereotype of guidos and guidettes. This idea of Southern Italians as "non-white" is so deep-rooted in America that maybe Italian Americans themselves started to believe it too and they always try to emphasize and romanticize how they are a different ethnicity compared to other white Americans. They get this extreme tan, dye their hair black in order to look more exotic.
The pop singer Ariana Grande, who is also Sicilian-American and pale AF, is doing the exact same thing now.

82701

82702

82703

The reality in Southern Italy is completely different from your American vision of Italian-Americans. Unfortunately, Southern Italy has also seen right-wing parties gain in popularity in recent years and right now there‘s a strong anti-African immigrants sentiment.


I started reading this thread, felt like half my braincells had died by about page 4, then realised what a waste of time it was and just clicked on the 'reply' button to write this:

Italians are white, Italians are European.

Correct! All Italians are white Europeans. It is a fact. It isn’t anyone considering them white or not, they are white. All Europeans are white. But the Regina George of whites are Angles & Saxons, and sometimes Germans as well. All the rest of them may or may not be allowed to sit at the (white) table dependant upon the century lol

[Kenshiro]

I don't share in the view that Italians are European, caucasian, white, or whichever other term applies to your particular school of thought on the matter. Italians today are the products of a millenia of miscegenation with Moors, Phoenicians, Negroes, and numerous other non-European groups. Their physical appearance alone demonstrates how racially bastardized these people are, without taking into consideration the multitudes of scientific data, as well as historical evidence of migration and conquests, which supports this notion. Racial matters aside, Italians also demonstrate an inherent penchant for criminality, deceitfullness, and, perhaps most of all, laziness. These undesirable traits are also amplified by the fact that they are generally arrogant, overly-emotional, and violent. From a colonial point of view, they are a greater detriment to the preservation of people of Northern European stock than any Asian or African will ever be.

From a late 19th century New Orleans newspaper, reporting on the aftermath of the murder of David Hennessy:

Bro i'm literally modelable like over 80% Italic and ancient Greeks and i'm absolutely not White, we are probably European mediterranean
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[Kenshiro]

las chicas y las mujeres del norte son mas lindas if you ask my opinion but I might be biased.

Honestly opinion, Veneto yes, but also Sardinia, a good part of show girl are from Sardinia

[renaissance12]

Italians and Italics.. please...