New paper! Greek DNA outside of Greece.

[Longbowman]

@Sikeliot, @Casandrinos

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg2015124a.html


Greek colonisation of South Italy and Sicily (Magna Graecia) was a defining event in European cultural history, although the demographic processes and genetic impacts involved have not been systematically investigated. Here, we combine high-resolution surveys of the variability at the uni-parentally inherited Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA in selected samples of putative source and recipient populations with forward-in-time simulations of alternative demographic models to detect signatures of that impact. Using a subset of haplotypes chosen to represent historical sources, we recover a clear signature of Greek ancestry in East Sicily compatible with the settlement from Euboea during the Archaic Period (eighth to fifth century BCE). We inferred moderate sex-bias in the numbers of individuals involved in the colonisation: a few thousand breeding men and a few hundred breeding women were the estimated number of migrants. Last, we demonstrate that studies aimed at quantifying Hellenic genetic flow by the proportion of specific lineages surviving in present-day populations may be misleading.

[Sikeliot]

Not a surprise. The whole eastern half of Sicily, basically Catania, Enna, Syracuse, Messina and Ragusa, have a lot of Greek ancestry. The question is, are Euboeans more like mainland or island Greeks? Sicilians, collectively, are genetically closer to Aegean islanders than to mainland Greeks.

Though a lot of our Greek ancestry is also Rhodian, Anatolian, Cretan, and Peloponnesian. I think a few settlements from Kos and Naxos also.

I know I have a lot of Greek cousins on 23andme though some of that might be recent. Somehow I think Apulia has the most direct/recent Greek ancestry in southern Italy though.

[Longbowman]

Not a surprise. The whole eastern half of Sicily, basically Catania, Enna, Syracuse, Messina and Ragusa, have a lot of Greek ancestry. The question is, are Euboeans more like mainland or island Greeks? Sicilians, collectively, are genetically closer to Aegean islanders than to mainland Greeks.

Though a lot of our Greek ancestry is also Rhodian, Anatolian, Cretan, and Peloponnesian. I think a few settlements from Kos and Naxos also.

I know I have a lot of Greek cousins on 23andme though some of that might be recent. Somehow I think Apulia has the most direct/recent Greek ancestry in southern Italy though.

It doesn't suggest that much Greek ancestry, actually. 500-1000 colonists maximum.

[Sikeliot]

It doesn't suggest that much Greek ancestry, actually. 500-1000 colonists maximum.

Sicily was relatively unpopulated at the time, so it would have made a difference. Evidence seems to suggest though that the pre-Greek Sicilians were likely of a stock similar to Aegean islanders, a Neolithic seafaring sort. So even without Greek ancestry, Sicilians would be similar to some of the people calling themselves Greeks today.

[Longbowman]

Sicily was relatively unpopulated at the time, so it would have made a difference. Evidence seems to suggest though that the pre-Greek Sicilians were likely of a stock similar to Aegean islanders, a Neolithic seafaring sort. So even without Greek ancestry, Sicilians would be similar to some of the people calling themselves Greeks today.

They think Sicily may have had as many as 1.35 million people at the time.

Previous estimates have been made with the highly unscientific method of 'EV13 = Greek,' which is wrong.

[Sikeliot]

They think Sicily may have had as many as 1.35 million people at the time.

Previous estimates have been made with the highly unscientific method of 'EV13 = Greek,' which is wrong.

So do you agree that pre-Greek Sicilians would have been of similar character to modern Aegean islanders? It is likely, since both cluster closer than to mainlanders. Which means, that island Greeks are themselves a Hellenized group and not transplants from the mainland.

Sicily has more J2 than most of Greece, like the islands.

[Longbowman]

So do you agree that pre-Greek Sicilians would have been of similar character to modern Aegean islanders? It is likely, since both cluster closer than to mainlanders. Which means, that island Greeks are themselves a Hellenized group and not transplants from the mainland.

Sicily has more J2 than most of Greece, like the islands.

Why do you want Sicilians to be Greek?

[Sikeliot]

Why do you want Sicilians to be Greek?

I didn't say I did. Greek islanders and Sicilians were both largely Hellenized people, but they were likely very similar to one another well before the Greek language even came into the Balkans. Do you not agree with this?

The only difference is some kind of North African component in Sicilians (and somehow, in Calabrese) that is not in the Aegean.

Go here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?175721

[Longbowman]

I didn't say I did. Greek islanders and Sicilians were both largely Hellenized people, but they were likely very similar to one another well before the Greek language even came into the Balkans. Do you not agree with this?

The only difference is some kind of North African component in Sicilians (and somehow, in Calabrese) that is not in the Aegean.

No, both are Neolithic groups with Indo-European admixture. If islanders are 'hellenized' mainlanders are only slightly less 'hellenized.' Sicilians aren't 'hellenized.'

[Sikeliot]

No, both are Neolithic groups with Indo-European admixture. If islanders are 'hellenized' mainlanders are only slightly less 'hellenized.' Sicilians aren't 'hellenized.'

OK but you're not answering me.

Do you think the people on Ikaria, Samos, Chios, Rhodes, etc. and Sicily were similar in ancient times? If so, it does not say anything about Greekness. And all of these people differ genetically from those in the western Mediterranean.

[Longbowman]

OK but you're not answering me.

Do you think the people on Ikaria, Samos, Chios, Rhodes, etc. and Sicily were similar in ancient times? If so, it does not say anything about Greekness. And all of these people differ genetically from those in the western Mediterranean.

They're similar today, what's your point? probably been similar for all time.

[Sikeliot]

They're similar today, what's your point? probably been similar for all time.

There we go. So quantifying Greek autosomal admixture is near impossible.

[Seth MacFarlane]

Why do you want Sicilians to be Greek?

lol i think your misunderstanding him . i think he means the opposite . that sicilians are mainly neolothic people with indo euro admix like you said , and they are not similar to mainland greeks. when he said siclians were "heellenized " what he really meant was that most people claim that sicilians are mostly of greek dna but its morso neolithic farmers influence ,but greeks had influence in the culture and history

[Sikeliot]

lol i think your misunderstanding him . i think he means the opposite . that sicilians are mainly neolothic people with indo euro admix like you said , and they are not similar to mainland greeks. when he said siclians were "heellenized " what he really meant was that most people claim that sicilians are mostly of greek dna but its morso neolithic farmers influence ,but greeks had influence in the culture and history


That is closer to what I meant. What I really meant was that when we say now that Sicilians are close to Greeks, we mean islanders... but this would also be true even if not a single Greek speaker had ever settled on the island. Being technical, even though I think Sicilians are and have always been a Neolithic Eastern Med type of people, we also have Greek, Roman, Lombard, North African, Phoenician, Iberian, French, Swabian in us in small amounts and there are probably other ethnicities I am not even naming, we are that mixed.