French as a nationality or ethnicity?

[Dylan]

I understand that France is a nation and therefore considered a nationality, but is it an ethnicity too?
France in my opinion is far too diverse for French to be an ethnicity with Normans, Bretons, Catalans, Basques, etc.
I find that French people look very different depending on the region and I know that historically, regionalism played a great role in French cultures and dialects.
Similarly on DNA tests, people seem to score very low French, even when they are full french. I am half French, but I only scored ~5% whereas I scored 20% Iberian and 15% North Sea, all deriving from ancestry from different regions of France.
It seems to me that French should not be considered an ethnicity given the variation in Germanic, Celtic, Iberian, and even Italic origins of the people depending on the region.

[Tooting Carmen]

Regionalism is much less important in France than in Spain or Italy, where regional languages and cultures are still a lot stronger. But to answer your question, it can be either a ntionality or an ethnicity depending on the context.

[sql]

Frenchmen are mainly the same as Germans, Dutch, Belgians, and Swiss in terms of genetics

[Iltirbas]

French is an ethnicity first and foremost, one of the oldest European ethnic groups, in fact. Norman and Breton are mere flavours within said "Frenchness" whereas Basques are but a tiny minority restricted to one department and the Catalans in Perpignan and thereabouts have been largely assimilated into the standard French society and culture.

[Dylan]

Frenchmen are mainly the same as Germans, Dutch, Belgians, and Swiss in terms of genetics

What about Southern French people?

[European Knight]

I understand that France is a nation and therefore considered a nationality, but is it an ethnicity too?
France in my opinion is far too diverse for French to be an ethnicity with Normans, Bretons, Catalans, Basques, etc.
I find that French people look very different depending on the region and I know that historically, regionalism played a great role in French cultures and dialects.
Similarly on DNA tests, people seem to score very low French, even when they are full french. I am half French, but I only scored ~5% whereas I scored 20% Iberian and 15% North Sea, all deriving from ancestry from different regions of France.
It seems to me that French should not be considered an ethnicity given the variation in Germanic, Celtic, Iberian, and even Italic origins of the people depending on the region.

you know with this kind of speech you go no where in France the whole French people i know personaly don't give a damn where is their ethnicity coming from our time will come that is more sure and important

[Dylan]

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/france_races.jpg

What do people think of this?

[Dylan]

you know with this kind of speech you go no where in France the whole French people i know personaly don't give a damn where is their ethnicity coming from our time will come that is more sure and important

Of course they don't give a damn. But I'm of French ancestry and I do.

[aksakallicocuk]

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/france_races.jpg

What do people think of this?

This is nearly same with all countries. Nearly every country countains different races.

[Dylan]

This is nearly same with all countries. Nearly every country countains different races.

Yes, but with France, it is ignored much more so than in other comparable countries.

[Balmung]

Yes, but with France, it is ignored much more so than in other comparable countries.

Really? it seems France is one of the countries most antagonized for being a melting pot and an aritificial ethnicity while people pretend nations like Germany or Britain are pure something.

[Dylan]

Really? it seems France is one of the countries most antagonized for being a melting pot and an aritificial ethnicity while people pretend nations like Germany or Britain are pure something.

I do consider it an artificial ethnicity.

[Valmont]

I do consider it an artificial ethnicity.

What do you mean? I'm French and I feel just as French as from someone from Northern, Southern, Eastern or Western France.

France is the biggest western European nation and literally in the middle of everyone. French looks are extremely varied and you will find lots of different genetics as well as phenotypes.

[Tooting Carmen]

Frenchmen are mainly the same as Germans, Dutch, Belgians, and Swiss in terms of genetics

They are close, but plot further South than all of them, being a partially Mediterranean people and all.

[Dylan]

What do you mean? I'm French and I feel just as French as from someone from Northern, Southern, Eastern or Western France.

France is the biggest western European nation and literally in the middle of everyone. French looks are extremely varied and you will find lots of different genetics as well as phenotypes.

It's not that people from different parts of France are more or less French. Its just that Northern French people are too different from Southern French people (historically) in my opinion to be considered one people.

[Balmung]

I do consider it an artificial ethnicity.

Almost every modern ethnic group is artificial. A collection of people living in a territory that had many migrations or border changes. The diversity in Y-DNA across Europe reflects that. All we really have to determine modern ethnicities today besides culture is how wide the genetic gap is between them. The French like the British or anyone else in Europe are distinct enough as a group to be considered an ethnicity imo. North and south they usually plot close to each other though there is overlap with neighboring countries.

[Dylan]

Almost every modern ethnic group is artificial. A collection of people living in a territory that had many migrations or border changes. The diversity in Y-DNA across Europe reflects that. All we really have to determine modern ethnicities today besides culture is how wide the genetic gap is between them. The French like the British or anyone else in Europe are distinct enough as a group to be considered an ethnicity imo. North and south they usually plot close to each other though there is overlap with neighboring countries.

Yes, but French identity is especially artificial imo.

[Dylan]

They are close, but plot further South than all of them, being a partially Mediterranean people and all.

I plot much closer to Spain and Portugal than Germans, Dutch, Belgians, or Swiss.

[Valmont]

It's not that people from different parts of France are more or less French. Its just that Northern French people are too different from Southern French people (historically) in my opinion to be considered one people.

Maybe historically but I don't think it was ever so true. France as a nation has existed for much longer than many other European nations. And there aren't that many physical differences between Northern and Southern French people.

The first actress comes from Toulouse (in the very south of France) while the second one comes from Brittany (in the North-West) they look different but probably do not match your idea of a "Northern" or "Southern" french woman

http://cdn1-public.ladmedia.fr/var/public/storage/images/news/photos/photos-reconnaissez-vous-cette-ancienne-gloire-de-la-television-354049/et-oui-il-s-agit-de-virginie-de-premiers-baisers-354054/4572929-1-fre-FR/Et-oui-il-s-agit-de-Virginie-de-Premiers-Baisers_reference.jpg

http://static.cinemagia.ro/img/resize/db/actor/09/14/05/louise-bourgoin-401129l-576x0-w-d0b9aef4.jpg

[Thunder_shock]

There might be some differences in terms of origins/admixture levels but they all share the gallo romance language. The standard french is derived from the Belgica tribe in Northern France.

[Dylan]

Maybe historically but I don't think it was ever so true. France as a nation has existed for much longer than many other European nations. And there aren't that many physical differences between Northern and Southern French people.

The first actress comes from Toulouse (in the very south of France) while the second one comes from Brittany (in the North-West) they look different but probably do not match your idea of a "Northern" or "Southern" french woman

]

Here's an example regarding the history of French language in France.

"France on paper has existed for a long time as a nation, but in terms of culture, language, and ethnicity, its not that simple.
The French nation-state, which appeared after the 1789 French Revolution and Napoleon's empire, unified the French people in particular through the consolidation of the use of the French language. Hence, according to historian Eric Hobsbawm, "the French language has been essential to the concept of 'France', although in 1789 50% of the French people did not speak it at all, and only 12 to 13% spoke it 'fairly' – in fact, even in oïl language zones, out of a central region, it was not usually spoken except in cities, and, even there, not always in the faubourgs [approximatively translatable to "suburbs"]. In the North as in the South of France, almost nobody spoke French."[27] Hobsbawm highlighted the role of conscription, invented by Napoleon, and of the 1880s public instruction laws, which allowed to mix the various groups of France into a nationalist mold which created the French citizen and his consciousness of membership to a common nation, while the various "patois" were progressively eradicated."

As for the images you posted, these are anecdotes and on their own are quite useless. The Northern one doesn't look Southern to me either, it doesn't surprise me that she's from Brittany.

[Thunder_shock]

Though the vast majority of the 50% did not speak standard french, they still spoke a variant of the Gallo Romance languages that was for the most part mutually intelligible with the standard french langauge.

[Dylan]

There might be some differences in terms of origins/admixture levels but they all share the gallo romance language. The standard french is derived from the Belgica tribe in Northern France.

Standard French might derive from the Belgica tribe, but standard French wasn't even spoken by most of France until ~WWI
"The French nation-state, which appeared after the 1789 French Revolution and Napoleon's empire, unified the French people in particular through the consolidation of the use of the French language. Hence, according to historian Eric Hobsbawm, "the French language has been essential to the concept of 'France', although in 1789 50% of the French people did not speak it at all, and only 12 to 13% spoke it 'fairly' – in fact, even in oïl language zones, out of a central region, it was not usually spoken except in cities, and, even there, not always in the faubourgs [approximatively translatable to "suburbs"]. In the North as in the South of France, almost nobody spoke French."[27] Hobsbawm highlighted the role of conscription, invented by Napoleon, and of the 1880s public instruction laws, which allowed to mix the various groups of France into a nationalist mold which created the French citizen and his consciousness of membership to a common nation, while the various "patois" were progressively eradicated."

[Valmont]

Here's an example regarding the history of French language in France.

"France on paper has existed for a long time as a nation, but in terms of culture, language, and ethnicity, its not that simple.
The French nation-state, which appeared after the 1789 French Revolution and Napoleon's empire, unified the French people in particular through the consolidation of the use of the French language. Hence, according to historian Eric Hobsbawm, "the French language has been essential to the concept of 'France', although in 1789 50% of the French people did not speak it at all, and only 12 to 13% spoke it 'fairly' – in fact, even in oïl language zones, out of a central region, it was not usually spoken except in cities, and, even there, not always in the faubourgs [approximatively translatable to "suburbs"]. In the North as in the South of France, almost nobody spoke French."[27] Hobsbawm highlighted the role of conscription, invented by Napoleon, and of the 1880s public instruction laws, which allowed to mix the various groups of France into a nationalist mold which created the French citizen and his consciousness of membership to a common nation, while the various "patois" were progressively eradicated."

As for the images you posted, these are anecdotes and on their own are quite useless.

You're the one who mixes ethnicity and culture. My mother is a Bretonne while my dad is a gône and they're both French.

There might regional differences but they aren't that big nowadays. Everybody identifies as French apart from some regionalist independentists. My aunt (a bretonne) married a Catalan and he considers himself French too. There aren't many cultural or physical differences for that matter.

The various cultures in France are what make France, France. No French person would consider a Southerner that different from a Northerner, apart maybe for the accent.

[Dylan]

You're the one who mixes ethnicity and culture. My mother is a Bretonne while my dad is a gône and they're both French.

There might regional differences but they aren't that big nowadays. Everybody identifies as French apart from some regionalist independentists. My aunt (a bretonne) married a Catalan and he considers himself French too. There aren't many cultural or physical differences for that matter.

The various cultures in France are what make France, France. No French person would consider a Southerner that different from a Northerner, apart maybe for the accent.

Yes, I agree they are not that different anymore because of intense standardizations that have been made over the past 150 years.

I'm not mixing ethnicity and culture. The culture is almost entirely the same throughout France now as a result of artificial standardizations. Regional ethnicities are becoming less apparent as well as a result of increased travel between regions etc. but i'm talking about roots more than current realities.

[aksakallicocuk]

It's not that people from different parts of France are more or less French. Its just that Northern French people are too different from Southern French people (historically) in my opinion to be considered one people.

Just take a look at faces of Turkish users of this forum. We are not even similar.
http://i.hizliresim.com/0kq1ZD.jpg (http://hizliresim.com/0kq1ZD)
http://i.hizliresim.com/pog0AN.jpg (http://hizliresim.com/pog0AN)
http://i.hizliresim.com/0kq1Q8.jpg (http://hizliresim.com/0kq1Q8)
http://i.hizliresim.com/gA5qmO.jpg (http://hizliresim.com/gA5qmO)

[Dylan]

Just take a look at faces of Turkish users of this forum. We are not even similar.
]

How is this relevant?

[aksakallicocuk]

How is this relevant?

people can look different bu being a one people is only a matter of identity.

[Dylan]

people can look different bu being a one people is only a matter of identity.

That's not what I'm talking about though. And for the record, I also don't think the people in your post looked so crazy different from one another.

Turkey is a big country with lots of people, of course there is going to be great phenotypical diversity as is the case with France.

[Ivan Kramskoï]

I guess we discuss about 2 points ; physical appearance and culture.

Except that the north is lighter than the south, most phenotype can exist in all France.
Even though some French people cluster in UK, Germany, Spain, Italy ; French remain essentially from the Celtic Gauls with minor Germanic and Latin admixture (the first more in the north east, the second more in the south east). They are dark haired dark eyed and light haired light eyed people everywhere in France. Native French can pass in almost all Western European countries.
So the physical differences exist between the North and the South but it's not that huge.

France used to be way more diverse culturally but thanks to Jules Ferry in 1881 all little French went to school learning how to speak French and become French and so to forget about their region to love their nation. The French language does not change a lot in all the places in France. There exist regional accent but not everyone has (for my part I was never told I have an accent). I have friends from the North and sometimes we use some differents words but it's very rare we don't undersand each other.

The main division in France today is not about Southern French and Northern French but between Native French and French of European origin and non white people.

[Dylan]

I guess we discuss about 2 points ; physical appearance and culture.

Except that the north is lighter than the south, most phenotype can exist in all France.
Even though some French people cluster in UK, Germany, Spain, Italy ; French remain essentially from the Celtic Gauls with minor Germanic and Latin admixture (the first more in the north east, the second more in the south east). They are dark haired dark eyed and light haired light eyed people everywhere in France. Native French can pass in almost all Western European countries.
So the physical differences exist between the North and the South but it's not that huge.

France used to be way more diverse culturally but thanks to Jules Ferry in 1881 all little French went to school learning how to speak French and become French and so to forget about their region to love their nation. The French language does not change a lot in all the places in France. There exist regional accent but not everyone has (for my part I was never told I have an accent). I have friends from the North and sometimes we use some differents words but it's very rare we don't undersand each other.

The main division in France today is not about Southern French and Northern French but between Native French and French of European origin and non white people.


The standardization of culture and language you're speaking of is one of the main reasons why I see "French" as a largely artificial identity. Of course, I recognize these standardizations were made in just about every country, but i think people often forget France's diverse past, whereas in Spain or Italy for example, we do not.

[Ivan Kramskoï]

The standardization of culture and language you're speaking of is one of the main reasons why I see "French" as a largely artificial identity. Of course, I recognize these standardizations were made in just about every country, but i think people often forget France's diverse past, whereas in Spain or Italy for example, we do not.
A lot of regionnal differences have been lost but most of today's France was united in a same country for more than 1000 years ; that create bounds between people.
France has also been a centralized way before the French Revolution.
I can agree that cultural differences between regions have been lost but France as a country is too old to be consider a fake ethnicity.

[Tchek]

Similarly on DNA tests, people seem to score very low French, even when they are full french. I am half French, but I only scored ~5% whereas I scored 20% Iberian and 15% North Sea, all deriving from ancestry from different regions of France.

You are talking about Eurogenes K36 I guess... What about your results on Eurogenes K13?

[Dylan]

You are talking about Eurogenes K36 I guess... What about your results on Eurogenes K13?


1 North_Atlantic 42.74
2 West_Med 19.87
3 Baltic 13.07
4 East_Med 12.01
5 West_Asian 7.95
6 Red_Sea 1.29

I'm 25% Irish and 25% Italian though. The West Mediterranean part comes from my French part.
My French ancestry comes mostly from Normandie, Brittany, and West France.
My dad is full French and is much more exotic than myself who people regularly see as Iberian, North African, or even Levantine on this site.
According to the oracle my closest ethnicities are
1 French @ 5.940366
2 Spanish_Cataluna @ 7.987049
3 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 9.577341
4 Portuguese @ 9.581956
5 Spanish_Murcia @ 10.175156
6 Spanish_Galicia @ 10.449386
7 Spanish_Extremadura @ 10.783912
8 Spanish_Valencia @ 10.893672
9 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 11.060716
10 West_German @ 11.324755
11 South_Dutch @ 11.442345
12 Spanish_Cantabria @ 11.647677
13 Spanish_Andalucia @ 12.024307
14 Spanish_Aragon @ 12.957120
15 Southwest_French @ 12.997970
16 North_Italian @ 14.833968
17 Southeast_English @ 16.202669
18 Southwest_English @ 16.935907
19 Orcadian @ 18.881414

[Tchek]

K36 is a bit dodgy, K13 is much more accurate usually.

I don't agree that there is no French ethnicity, that's propaganda.

[Dylan]

K36 is a bit dodgy, K13 is much more accurate usually.

I don't agree that there is no French ethnicity, that's propaganda.

Do you believe there is a universal Spanish ethnicity? (Just curious)

[Tchek]

Do you believe there is a universal Spanish ethnicity? (Just curious)

I think there is a Spanish, or Iberian ethnicity, but I don't know what you mean by "universal"...

[Dylan]

I think there is a Spanish, or Iberian ethnicity, but I don't know what you mean by "universal"...

By Universal, I mean one that includes Castilians, Basques, Catalans, Andalusians, etc. Rather than say a Spain with several ethnicities broken down by region.

I think when people refer to Spanish ethnicity, they usually are not referring to Catalans, Basques, or Galicians. (However they will refer to these people as Spanish by nationality).

[Visage pâle]

The French nation-state, which appeared after the 1789 French Revolution and Napoleon's empire, unified the French people in particular through the consolidation of the use of the French language.


French nation state emerged in middle ages between Philippe II and Louis XI


Hence, according to historian Eric Hobsbawm, "the French language has been essential to the concept of 'France', although in 1789 50% of the French people did not speak it at all, and only 12 to 13% spoke it 'fairly' – in fact, even in oïl language zones, out of a central region, it was not usually spoken except in cities, and, even there, not always in the faubourgs [approximatively translatable to "suburbs"]. In the North as in the South of France, almost nobody spoke French."[27] Hobsbawm highlighted the role of conscription, invented by Napoleon, and of the 1880s public instruction laws, which allowed to mix the various groups of France into a nationalist mold which created the French citizen and his consciousness of membership to a common nation, while the various "patois" were progressively eradicated."

Catholicism and Monarchy were the most essentials in foundation of France. cf Clovis' baptism.

[Visage pâle]

I understand that France is a nation and therefore considered a nationality, but is it an ethnicity too?

Ethnicity and nationality are often related, before 1789, there were no difference between these two concepts.


France in my opinion is far too diverse for French to be an ethnicity with Normans, Bretons, Catalans, Basques, etc.

All regions of France are mixed today, since most french have multiples regional ancestries.



I find that French people look very different depending on the region and I know that historically, regionalism played a great role in French cultures and dialects.

Regionalism is weak in France, it's mostly folkloric.


Similarly on DNA tests, people seem to score very low French, even when they are full french. I am half French, but I only scored ~5% whereas I scored 20% Iberian and 15% North Sea, all deriving from ancestry from different regions of France.
It seems to me that French should not be considered an ethnicity given the variation in Germanic, Celtic, Iberian, and even Italic origins of the people depending on the region.

"The fusion of races began in prehistoric times. The French people are a composite. That’s better than a race. It’s a nation."

Jacques Bainville

[Neon Knight]

Genetically, the French look no more complex than British or Germans. Perhaps a little less so.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/cb3c74f3-be07-436e-b914-1288030774ad_zpsbu3kb2rk.png

[Dylan]

Genetically, the French look no more complex than British or Germans. Perhaps a little less so.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/cb3c74f3-be07-436e-b914-1288030774ad_zpsbu3kb2rk.png

DNA testing is currently illegal in France so their studies are generally smaller and less accurate. This only has 3 points on the map. It doesn't even include any in the entire South of France, nor does it in Normandie, Basque Country, Catalonia, or Alsace-Lorraine. This map just doesn't really say a whole lot about France apart from Paris, Poitiers, and Brittany. And Brittany as expected is way different from the former two.

[Gooding]

DNA testing is currently illegal in France so their studies are generally smaller and less accurate. This only has 3 points on the map. It doesn't even include any in the entire South of France, nor does it in Normandie, Basque Country, Catalonia, or Alsace-Lorraine. This map just doesn't really say a whole lot about France apart from Paris, Poitiers, and Brittany. And Brittany as expected is way different from the former two.

Could you say why that is, Dylan? I find that really quite curious..

[Dylan]

Could you say why that is, Dylan? I find that really quite curious..

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28882-Ordering-a-DNA-test-in-France-is-a-crime-punishable-by-heavy-fines-and-jail-time

DNA tests with the exception of mtDNA tests can be used as Paternity tests, which are illegal there (at least these kinds of paternity tests). I've also read that it has to do with France's policy of "not seeing race". Kind of like how France doesn't survey racial demographics etc.
I think this might also explain why DNA tests in general suck for French people. E.g. 23andme told me i was like 4% French when I'm half French.
Some DNA tests might be allowed, I don't know the details, but its certainly more difficult to take a DNA test in France than it is in other countries, which can only result in less research etc.

[Gooding]

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28882-Ordering-a-DNA-test-in-France-is-a-crime-punishable-by-heavy-fines-and-jail-time

DNA tests with the exception of mtDNA tests can be used as Paternity tests, which are illegal there (at least these kinds of paternity tests). I've also read that it has to do with France's policy of "not seeing race". Kind of like how France doesn't survey racial demographics etc.
I think this might also explain why DNA tests in general suck for French people. E.g. 23andme told me i was like 4% French when I'm half French.

That's interesting.. AncestryDna did something like that to me when they assigned me as 4% Great Britain when my British quantum is actually something more than that.

[Mortimer]

to me a ethnicity but also nationality depends on the context like french arab etc. refers to nationality but when you refer to native french of european origins they are ethnicity similar as UK british pakistani vs. white native british

[Gooding]

to me a ethnicity but also nationality depends on the context like french arab etc. refers to nationality but when you refer to native french of european origins they are ethnicity similar as UK british pakistani vs. white native british

Very good point, at that.

[Petalpusher]

Genetically, the French look no more complex than British or Germans. Perhaps a little less so.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/cb3c74f3-be07-436e-b914-1288030774ad_zpsbu3kb2rk.png

This is a great map but it doesn't make sense without the British Isles map. It was made to see the input into England, not the other way and to describe the 3 types of French input (N&NE + NW + Center France), also from other countries (mostly German & Scando) with numeric captions, 14,17 and 12 for France.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

Of course there has been more than 3 regions tested in France.

Dna testing is banned for individuals, not for reasearches (well not yet*) there has been some for decades everywhere. Like any other West Euro country we are slowly turning into a totalitarian state because muh diversity, but that's another subject.


not yet* http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/16/hunt-for-viking-dna-among-normandy-residents-riles-anti-racism-activists

[Ivan Kramskoï]

Could you say why that is, Dylan? I find that really quite curious..
because it could damage the new political ideology that French is just synonimous with having a french passport and not a people with its own culture.

[Gooding]

because it could damage the new political ideology that French is just synonimous with having a french passport and not a people with its own culture.

In other words, the popular fashion is to try to rob the ordinary citizen of his sense of pride in his heritage by making him part of a faceless mob. That's a shame. :mad:

[Dylan]

because it could damage the new political ideology that French is just synonimous with having a french passport and not a people with its own culture.

Pretty ridiculous if you ask me, especially since France is anything but unified when it comes to its ethnic/religious minorities and its regular French population.

[Ivan Kramskoï]

In other words, the popular fashion is to try to rob the ordinary citizen of his sense of pride in his heritage by making him part of a faceless mob. That's a shame. :mad:
In France it's exactly that : this dream is carried on between the mad leftists and the diabolical capitalists.
The people called in France "the small whites" is starting to wake up it seems.