Origin of Dalo-Falid sub-race

[Tomasz]

According to this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11365&) thread by Agrippa, modern "White Race" can be distinguished into 6 main races: Nordid, Alpinid, Mediterranid, Cromagnid, Dinarid and Osteuropid. I am aware than other races like Armenids which are also "Caucasian" but I speak only about European types, which are associated with European nations and culture.

According to data shown in this thread and in SNPA, Dalo-Falids are essentially unaltered Cromagnid types, id est not a Nordid type. On the other hand, many early anthropologists and eugenicists seem to consider them as Nordid race. Is it because of incomplete knowledge about racial types of Europe in their times or maybe deliberate classification?

I will give few examples of such opinions held by early anthropologists and eugenicists.

Egon Freiherr von Eickstedt divided "Nordics" further into "Teuto-Nordics", "Dalo-Nordics" and "Fenno-Nordics". "Dalo-Nordics" are just Dalo-Falids, I guess? He has noticed Cromagnid admixture but he still considered them in "Nordic" spectrum.

Hans F. K. Gunther classified Dalo-Falids as "Phalic race". But this idea was dropped in many of his works, including "The Racial Elements in European History". In these works he seemed to consider "Phalics" as part of bigger "Nordic" race.

Famous eugenicist Lothrop Stoddard once criticized German nationalist ideologists who later had large impact on national socialism by saying:

Indeed the national-imperialists presently seized upon race teachings, and prostituted them to their own ends. A notable example of this is the extreme Pan-German propaganda of Houston Stewart Chamberlain and his fellows. Chamberlain makes two cardinal assumptions: he conceives modern Germany as racially purely Nordic; and he regards all Nordics outside the German linguistic-cultural group as either unconscious or renegade Teutons who must at all costs be brought into the German fold. To anyone who understands the scientific realities of race, the monstrous absurdity of these assumptions is instantly apparent. The fact is that modern Germany, far from being purely Nordic, is mainly Alpine in race. Nordic blood preponderates only in the northwest, and is merely veneered over the rest of Germany, especially in the upper classes… To let Teuton propaganda gull us into thinking of Germany as the Nordic fatherland is both a danger and an absurdity.
As far, as I know, NW Germany is region, where Dalo-Falids are most common. It's safe to assume that Lothrop Stoddard had them on mind, while he was talking about "Nordics" in Germany.

There are more examples of such classifications, but I think these three I showed are enough to serve as an example.

Now - after this long introduction - I have following questions:

1) Why do these early anthropologists/eugenicists classified Dalo-Falids as "Nordics"? Is it because of incomplete knowledge in their times or they had some basis for their views?

2) How was Dalo-Falid sub-race derived? Are they primarily Cromagnids or are there some other elements, namely Nordid? Maybe modern Dalo-Falids are blended with Nordids to some extent like SNPA suggests and that's why they were classified as "Nordic" in early works?

[Saruman]

1) Why do these early anthropologists/eugenicists classified Dalo-Falids as "Nordics"? Is it because of incomplete knowledge in their times or they had some basis for their views?
Well some include it under "Nordid in broader sense".
I think reasons might be of political nature as well, to increase the number of a desired group, increased cohesion.



2) How was Dalo-Falid sub-race derived? Are they primarily Cromagnids or are there some other elements, namely Nordid? Maybe modern Dalo-Falids are blended with Nordids to some extent like SNPA suggests and that's why they were classified as "Nordic" in early works?

Cromagnid, though in the case of Dalo-Faelids there might be some additional gracialisation at work. Agrippa could probably explain it better, whether and how much they are altered.

Indeed there are 6 main European types, as described by Agrippa, but Gunther too in his time recognized these 6 though he considered rather extreme East-Baltids as typical Osteuropids, possibly due to political reasons as well.

[Tomasz]

Well some include it under "Nordid in broader sense".
I think reasons might be of political nature as well, to increase the number of a desired group, increased cohesion.

I think you might be right here. Gunther and von Eickstedt cerainly had reasons to include Dalo-Falids in "Nordic" category. They were following nordicist ideology (especially Gunther) after all. Both were German and Dalo-Falid race concentrates mainly in Germany so it makes sense.


Indeed there are 6 main European types, as described by Agrippa, but Gunther too in his time recognized these 6 though he considered rather extreme East-Baltids as typical Osteuropids, possibly due to political reasons as well.

Exactly my thought. If Gunther didn't drop "Phalic" from his classification in many works, and if he changed "East Baltid" to less extreme form, for example "Baltid" then his classification system would be nearly perfect.

I don't like these political plots behind his works. Just look at his photo examples of "East Baltic" race. They aren't even East-Baltids but rather some semi-mongoloids. Of course such individuals can be met further in the East but they aren't too common.

[Agrippa]

1) Why do these early anthropologists/eugenicists classified Dalo-Falids as "Nordics"? Is it because of incomplete knowledge in their times or they had some basis for their views?

Fact is, that is just a question of definition. If you say "light + tall + longheaded" = Nordid = Dalofaelid is Nordid too.

I consider Dalofaelids being Nordeuropid or at best Nordoid.

Fact is, they inhabit the same living space and show in some respects a similar adaptation. It is primarily their origin and morphology which makes them different.

Most authors spoke about Nordid and meant standard Nordid (= Skandonordid, Teutonordid, Hallstatt, Göta or like you want). This is the most dominant form of Nordid they said.

Often they spoke about Nordid in the narrower sense - typically with a narrow face and nose) - and Nordid in the wider sense, so including this Dalofaelid/Cromagnid variants.

All authors distinguished between Nordid proper and Dalofaelid, but the question for all of them was just whether they put Dalofaelid in a category on its own or not. Some did, other's didnt.

In the South they came up with a similar problem by not properly distinguishing among the longheaded darker pigmented (Mediterranean) variants between the "real Mediterranids" and Cromagnid inspired variants (like Berid).


Hans F. K. Gunther classified Dalo-Falids as "Phalic race". But this idea was dropped in many of his works, including "The Racial Elements in European History". In these works he seemed to consider "Phalics" as part of bigger "Nordic" race.

You have to consider when the respective works were written or newly edited and what perspective he had in it, narrower context in Germany or wider for Europe f.e.


Egon Freiherr von Eickstedt divided "Nordics" further into "Teuto-Nordics", "Dalo-Nordics" and "Fenno-Nordics". "Dalo-Nordics" are just Dalo-Falids, I guess? He has noticed Cromagnid admixture but he still considered them in "Nordic" spectrum.

That wasn't just Cromagnid admixture, but he considered those variants being derived from completely different origins, just coming together in one habitat and forming there the Nordid racial type which is adapted to Northern Europe, while the original forms are still recognisable.

All the terms like Northern Cromagnid, Dalo-Nordic, Faelisch or the like are just other names for the same, like in the case of Nordid proper.

He thought about a settlement in Northern Europe by Nordeuropid forms from three directions - Western Europe Cromagnids, Central Europe Teutonordids and Eastern Europe Fennonordids:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5440&stc=1&d=1280922602


2) How was Dalo-Falid sub-race derived? Are they primarily Cromagnids or are there some other elements, namely Nordid? Maybe modern Dalo-Falids are blended with Nordids to some extent like SNPA suggests and that's why they were classified as "Nordic" in early works?

Point is, that Nordid proper and Dalofaeid inhabit largely the same regions for thousand and thousands of years. Even if the Nordid proper element would descend largely from Neolithic and Postneolithic elements, still it would be about thousands of years of intermixture.

So the variants you find today are, with small areas's exceptions, always genetically intermixed, it is just that in some families and individuals this or that traits dominate. Like it is elsewhere with family members being blue or brown eyed...

Dalofaelids are just closest - of all existing more important racial forms in Europe - to Cromagnids proper and have the same basic trait combination, including proportionally (eurydolichomorphs).

I'd suggest that some of the real Dalofaelids came rather later to Northern Europe at least too, because in some ares more archaic Cromagnoids (archaic Palaeatlantids, Borreby-variants and even more primitive now largely extinct variants) seem to have predate the more progressive Dalofaelids.

So it is hard to determine how ancient they are for every region, but they are the older element for the more Northern areas in comparison to Nordid proper and are more progressive than more archaic Cromagnoids. Whether this is also due to the long lasting mixture with Nordid and Mediterranid regionally is hard to tell, but that's not necessary, because the original Cromagnids had some quite progressive variants too, some even more progressive, like "the Old" of Cro Magnon than contemporary Aurignacoids.

[Tomasz]

Thank you a lot for answer. :thumb001:

By the way - do you consider Brünns to be distinct sub-race or just some variety of "Northern Cromagnid", id est Dalo-Falid.

Brünns are very similiar to Dalo-Falids in my opinion but they have this distinctive "Irish look" - high percentage of red/reddish and curly hair, etc.

[Agrippa]

Thank you a lot for answer. :thumb001:

By the way - do you consider Brünns to be distinct sub-race or just some variety of "Northern Cromagnid", id est Dalo-Falid.

Brünns are very similiar to Dalo-Falids in my opinion but they have this distinctive "Irish look" - high percentage of red/reddish and curly hair, etc.

To me they are just part of the Cromagnid/Dalofaelid spectrum, probably some regional variants deviate more significantly from Dalofaelid proper, but they are still no major category on their own.

Reddish hair etc. is fairly common in Dalofaelids/Northern Cromagnids almost everywhere.

[Tomasz]

Reddish hair etc. is fairly common in Dalofaelids/Northern Cromagnids almost everywhere.

As we're talking about red hair, then one question came to my mind.

Which races beside Cromagnid tend to have red hair? As far, as I've heard (but I might be wrong now) Nordid proper isn't red-haired: only blonde/brown. So the last candidate is Baltid...

[Agrippa]

As we're talking about red hair, then one question came to my mind.

Which races beside Cromagnid tend to have red hair? As far, as I've heard (but I might be wrong now) Nordid proper isn't red-haired: only blonde/brown. So the last candidate is Baltid...

Also the Alpinoids as a Cromagnoid in the wider sense derivate are often red haired - genetically. It's just that their red hairedness being masked by the more often brown-black genes. But if you look at many Alpinoid populations, they have usually a quite obvious red haired minority. Genetically that might be even more pronounced than in Baltids in my opinion.

[Tomasz]

Also the Alpinoids as a Cromagnoid in the wider sense derivate are often red haired - genetically. It's just that their red hairedness being masked by the more often brown-black genes. But if you look at many Alpinoid populations, they have usually a quite obvious red haired minority. Genetically that might be even more pronounced than in Baltids in my opinion.

"Alpinoids" - would this term involve Borreby sub-race as well? I've seen some people classifying them under the "Cromagnid" label. On the other hand, some people even call them "North Alpine" or Nordalpinid. I'm just asking, because somehow I can't imagine "pure Alpinid" having red hair (which is usually accompanied with fair eyes and pale, freckled skin). And term Alpinoid is suggesting that these types you're talking about aren't necessarily "pure Alpinid" but more of "Alpinid-like".

Anyway, was I right about Nordids (in narrower sense - excluding Dalo-Falids, etc.) being primarily blonde/brown haired and lacking in redheadeness?

[Saruman]

"Alpinoids" - would this term involve Borreby sub-race as well? I've seen some people classifying them under the "Cromagnid" label. On the other hand, some people even call them "North Alpine" or Nordalpinid. I'm just asking, because somehow I can't imagine "pure Alpinid" having red hair (which is usually accompanied with fair eyes and pale, freckled skin). And term Alpinoid is suggesting that these types you're talking about aren't necessarily "pure Alpinid" but more of "Alpinid-like".



As Agrippa told me Borrebies are quite often more on the archaic Cromagnoid side, partly alpinised.
I wanted to ask as it seems Dalo-Faelids are only very progressive CM's, is it due to their possible mixture with Nordids that they lost archaic features?
Also to me it seems that Brunn have maybe often more archaic features(it might be due to Coon's search for archaic CM's) than Dalo-Faelids, so what are differences between them?

[Agrippa]

"Alpinoids" - would this term involve Borreby sub-race as well? I've seen some people classifying them under the "Cromagnid" label. On the other hand, some people even call them "North Alpine" or Nordalpinid.

Yes, me too. Fact is, they are or should be, by definition, brachycephalic. Broad faced-brachycephalic-pyknomorphic = Alpinoid. In fact they are in between in their own way.

There are other possible Cromagno-Alpinoid transitions which are not Borreby, because Borreby-variants have a typical morphology, usually higher heads, specific jaws, noses etc., but Borreby variants are robust Cromagno-Alpinoids TOO in my opinion.


I'm just asking, because somehow I can't imagine "pure Alpinid" having red hair (which is usually accompanied with fair eyes and pale, freckled skin). And term Alpinoid is suggesting that these types you're talking about aren't necessarily "pure Alpinid" but more of "Alpinid-like".

Exactly and since Alpinisation is a process and there are virtually no larger populations which being really dominated by Alpinid proper, most are rather Alpinoid, typical Alpinids are more specific and less frequent.

I saw otherwise fully typical red and blond haired Alpinids - you can say that is admixture, but they are just typical Alpinids in all other traits, fully Alpinised and that Alpinoids have a great variation in pigmentation is nothing new - nor that they are genetically mostly mixed with other elements, since they developed out of mixed populations, have practically no habitat which is more or less "exclusively Alpinid" like f.e. Nordid, Mediterranid, Osteuropid have...


Anyway, was I right about Nordids (in narrower sense - excluding Dalo-Falids, etc.) being primarily blonde/brown haired and lacking in redheadeness?

Red shades are pretty common, red hairedness is no reason to exclude someone form being Nordid and after all, red hair being present in almost all Europid racial forms, even outside of Europe.

It's not typical Nordid to put it that way.


I wanted to ask as it seems Dalo-Faelids are only very progressive CM's, is it due to their possible mixture with Nordids that they lost archaic features?

Like I said before, that can be a reason for many, but on the other hand, the original Cromagnids - name giving finds - were quite progressive 30.000 years ago already!

So it must not be considered the result of admixture in every case, though that is a possibility.

Berberids too have very progressive variants, in their case mixture with Suedeuropids too can be considered, but not necessarily as the primary yet only reason.


Also to me it seems that Brunn have maybe often more archaic features(it might be due to Coon's search for archaic CM's) than Dalo-Faelids, so what are differences between them?

Coon explicitly searched for rather oversized-archaic looking Cromagnoid and Cromagnoid-Nordoid variants for his "Bruenn" and "Borreby" variation, partly due to the reason that he wanted to prove - with their primitive traits and archaic features - his theory about the Neandertal/Upper Palaeolithic admixture, which he considered being only significant in his "Upper Palaeolithic survivors", whereas the Aurignacoids are "fully sapiens", yet the earlist Cromagnids were more progressive and less Neandertal like and the Bruenn skull (prehistoric) being rather a primitive Aurignacoid - with possible archaic tendencies or admixture.

[Tomasz]

Thank you for explantation. :)

In other thread named "Alpines and Lapps" some sort of secondary discussion started (about East-Nordids, etc.). Since I don't want to make offtopic in that thread, I will just continue it here, because I have question regarding this subject.

When Saruman posted picture-example of von Eickstedt's "Fenno-Nordic", he reminded me of Karl Earlson's article, which I find bizarre. Here's the link:

http://www.white-history.com/earlson/Nordish.htm

The strangest part of this article is as follows:


A careful scrutiny of this typological scheme reveals clear parallels between von Eickstedt's nordische Rasse and McCulloch's Central Nordish group. The Teuto-Nordic subrace of von Eickstedt is clearly McCulloch's two Nordic racial types. The Dalo-Nordic subrace of von Eickstedt is clearly McCulloch's Brünn racial type. Finally, the Fenno-Nordic subrace of von Eickstedt has certain similarities with McCulloch's Borreby racial type: a tendency towards rufosity, light eyes, broad-headedness and a coarse body-build. This match is hardly precise, but the two types converge in more features than they diverge on.

Of course I see clear parallel between "Teuto-Nordics" of von Eickstedt and "Halstatt-Nordics" of Coon (because McCulloh was basing on Coon's typology, I guess). I see clear parallel between "Dalo-Nordics" of von Eickstedt and "Brünns" of Coon (who, as we already estabilished, are very similiar form to Dalo-Falid).

But I somehow cannot see any parallel between "Fenno-Nordics" of von Eickstedt and "Borrebys" by Coon. They inhabit different areas - "Fenno-Nordics" more Eastern Europe, while "Borrebys" rather Northern Europe. Another thing is that "Borrebys" don't appeal "Nordic" at all, at least for me.

Only explantation I can come up with is that - as you said - "Fenno-Nordic" race by von Eickstedt wasn't fully estabilished concept and wasn't exactly what we call East-Nordid today.

[Agrippa]

I just answered that question in the other thread already :)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17931

[Tomasz]

Okay, then. Now I understand - "Fenno-Nordic" of von Eickstedt does not equal East-Nordid, as we see it, so that's why I saw this article by Earlson as bizarre. :)