Are Silesian really Poles ?

[Mordid]

I have a silesian root and i want to know about silesian history because i'm quite interesting and i want get to know my silesian root. :)
Anyway i've heard that they dont consider themselve as Pole or German but Silesian. Can i ask why's that ? is it because they are culturally mixed and racially mixed ? Which tribe were the first settle in Silesia ?

Come one people
I want an answer. :):thumb001:

[W. R.]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Kaszebsko_familejo_leba_200.jpg

I'd like to ask the same question about Kashubians.

Subjectively I take Silesians as Poles and Kashubians as non-Poles.

[Mordid]

Subjectively I take Silesians as Poles.

Why so ?
Most Silesian dont consider themself as Poles or German but Silesian.
I think it'd be offensive if you say to Silesian person that Silesian are Pole. :rolleyes:

[MagnaLaurentia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians

It seems that these people are the result of a mixture of Germanic (German and Prussian?) and Slavic (Polish and Czech). (but mainly Slavic)

[kwp_wp]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Kaszebsko_familejo_leba_200.jpg

I'd like to ask the same question about Kashubians.

Subjectively I take Silesians as Poles and Kashubians as non-Poles.
I must disagree. If i had to choose between them I would be more inclined toward Silesian to identify themself more with Germans than Kashubians do. I live in Kashubian Region so it's based on my empiric experience and knowlegde. It doesn't mean that all Silesian are consider themselves as a German but it would be easier to find some Silesians who feel strong sentiment to Germany through their family pedigree.
But it's a typical subjective matter which we can't generalize at all IMO
The point is that both ethnicities mentioned above are descendants of Slavic tribes and lingualistically they're Slavic as well because both languages (Kashubians and Silesians) belongs to the West Slavic group.
Culturaly - it's a matter of personal family heritage. Some of the people have more tight connections with Germany, others with Poland.



Why so ?
Most Silesian dont consider themself as Poles or German but Silesian.
I think it'd be offensive if you say to Silesian person that Silesian are Pole. :rolleyes:
As I said this is their personal choice. And I don't think word "offensive" is a proper one in field of someone's ethnicity. You can be offended by someone who'll call you ugly or stupid but not when call you a Pole or a German or a Silesian or even Mongolian if you really are one. ;)

[Loddfafner]

I have one line of ancestors who left Silesia for Sweden in the XVIIth century. From what I understand, urban craftsmen were mostly German while the peasants were part of a Slavic continuum in between Poles, Czechs, and Sorbs. My own ancestors were most likely German. Those who left a trace in the historical record were clerics (deliberate pun on church clerics and 'clerical workers' as one went on to become the accountant at Marborg Castle) but their surnames refer to trades. Religious conflict between Catholics and Protestants seems to account for their dispersal.

[lei.talk]

the only self-described silesian
of my acquaintance
(her grand-parents fled their hereditary estate
in upper silesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Silesia) during the last war)

would be quietly astonished
at any one miss-taking her for a polka.


the single elevated eye-brow
speaks volumes.

[Albion]

Yes.

We can't keep tearing apart countries based on the slightest of regional divisions.

[Mordid]

Fuck you Albion for bumping my old thread. I've learned so far that Silesians are Poles, so you don't need to answer my question. ;)

[Albion]

Fuck you Albion for bumping my old thread. I've learned so far that Silesians are Poles, so you don't need to answer my question. ;)

Sorry. Just a lot of crap threads on here at the moment so I'm digging through the archives.

[Mordid]

Sorry. Just a lot of crap threads on here at the moment so I'm digging through the archives.
That's alright, but thanks for answer, anyway. :)

[kwestos]

I'd like to ask the same question about Kashubians.

Subjectively I take Silesians as Poles and Kashubians as non-Poles.

If it comes to modern reality, its quite the opposite. In the last census in Poland in 2012 nearly 850k declared Silesian nationality, out of it nearly half declared it as the only nationality, then slightly more than half declared it as dual Silesian-Polish nationality and a few % declared it as dual silesian-foreign (probably usually German) nationality.

In case of Kashubians, out of nearly 250k Kashubians nationals only 16 k declared only Kashubian nationality, while more than 90% declared it as dual Polish-Kashubians nationality, and 1k as dual Kashubian-foreign.

As such it seems that Kashubians basically consider themselves much more 'Polish' than Silesians, whose autonimist tendencies are clearly visible.

Another conclusion, both silesians and Kashubians living in Poland very rarely consider themselves German, as the census shows. Out of two then they consider themselves Polish sooner than German. It might have been not so overhelming in the past though, as lots of Silesians and Kashubians (and Masurians) emigrated to Germany, sometimes their German association was a pretext and sometimes true. Also, during expulsion of Germans after WW2 probably people with German identity were more likely to be chased away.

[Lisa]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Kaszebsko_familejo_leba_200.jpg

I'd like to ask the same question about Kashubians.

Subjectively I take Silesians as Poles and Kashubians as non-Poles.

look like Hungarians.

[RussiaPrussia]

they are germans with heavily mixed Slavic language.

[kwestos]

they are germans with heavily mixed Slavic language.
As far as I know, ethnically they have roots in both Slavic and Germanic tribes, also apart from obvious Polish and German part they have also presence of Bohemian tribes in the history of Silesia.
So ethnically they are mixed, linguistically- Slavic, identity- in the past divided between autonomist and Polish/German, now usually autonomist or Polish (as the census results presented 3 posts above show)

I read recently an interview with a Polish Silesian writer, he stated that he knows that in the past absolute majority of Silesians identified only as Silesians, or 'locals' and were quite indiffferent to both Polish and German nationalism and they were usually forced to 'take sides' than volunteered to do so.

[Albion]

If it comes to modern reality, its quite the opposite. In the last census in Poland in 2012 nearly 850k declared Silesian nationality, out of it nearly half declared it as the only nationality, then slightly more than half declared it as dual Silesian-Polish nationality and a few % declared it as dual silesian-foreign (probably usually German) nationality.

In case of Kashubians, out of nearly 250k Kashubians nationals only 16 k declared only Kashubian nationality, while more than 90% declared it as dual Polish-Kashubians nationality, and 1k as dual Kashubian-foreign.

As such it seems that Kashubians basically consider themselves much more 'Polish' than Silesians, whose autonimist tendencies are clearly visible.

Another conclusion, both silesians and Kashubians living in Poland very rarely consider themselves German, as the census shows. Out of two then they consider themselves Polish sooner than German. It might have been not so overhelming in the past though, as lots of Silesians and Kashubians (and Masurians) emigrated to Germany, sometimes their German association was a pretext and sometimes true. Also, during expulsion of Germans after WW2 probably people with German identity were more likely to be chased away.

So they lie to themselves that they're not Polish like Southern Scots lie that they're not English? :confused:

[Dominika]

That's so complicated :picard1:

[Kazimiera]

I have a silesian root and i want to know about silesian history because i'm quite interesting and i want get to know my silesian root. :)
Anyway i've heard that they dont consider themselve as Pole or German but Silesian. Can i ask why's that ? is it because they are culturally mixed and racially mixed ? Which tribe were the first settle in Silesia ?

Come one people
I want an answer. :):thumb001:

Is your root Polish or German?

[gregorius]

silesians are sicilians

[Mans not hot]

Is your root Polish or German?
Neither, he roots is Negro. Just look at his avatar. :rolleyes:

[Grenzland]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Wappen_Schlesiens.png


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tly-p81t39I

[Mans not hot]

:laugh2:

[Grenzland]

:laugh2:

In the spirit of 1939 I will just ignore your opinion! :)

[Veneda]

Is your root Polish or German?
He is trolling. After WWII only 5% of Germans stayed in Upper Silesia. 95% were repatriates from Kresy (Polish former territories of the eastern provinces of Poland before WWII).

[Grenzland]

Well AFTER WW II... :rolleyes:

[Veneda]

Well AFTER WW II... :rolleyes:
How much you multiplied after WWII in Upper Silesia? More than 5 %?

[Grenzland]

After WW II the degeneration and unfairness in Europe begun...

This is simply not an argument!

[Veneda]

After WW II the degeneration and unfairness in Europe begun...

This is simply not an argument!

This is simple your own opinion, especially if it regards to Poland :)

[Grenzland]

This is simple your own opinion, especially if it regards to Poland :)

Yes it is. But Polish nationalists are the ONLY ones that say the intervention of the USA was a good thing so you get your lands because you should have them, even if you lost land that actually should have...

Feels strange for me as German because you can't deserve something because you lost a war and you can't gain something because someone said so...

And to be honest, a LOT of European nationalists think like this.

[Jarl]

He is trolling. After WWII only 5% of Germans stayed in Upper Silesia. 95% were repatriates from Kresy (Polish former territories of the eastern provinces of Poland before WWII).



This is not true. In UPPER SILESIA the indigenous Silesian population which was predominantly Polish-speaking was allowed to stay. And I am not talking about the part of Silesia ceded to Poland in 1921 - those were Polish citizens and retained their rights. As for the others - they had to undergo a process of "verification".



Most ethnic Germans left and so did Protestants. But by far most Polish-speaking Catholics who constituted the bulk of the population stayed. So about 700-800 000... Afterwards part of them emigrated to Germany, but even today the "locals" constitute majority in many parts of Opole and Sielsian Wojewodztwo. Up to and sometimes even over 80%.



Overall Silesian+Opole together they might count anything between 1,5-2mln "locals" - so there is no way the "settlers" make up 95% of the society. Certainly not in the pre-1945 Polish part of Upper Silesia, and not in most parts of Opole Silesia (or pre-1945 German Silesia).

I dont think they even make up 50% within the historic Upper Silesia. Only in the westernmost parts of Opole which used to be either Protestant or ethnically German and German speaking - and from which most population was either expelled or left.

[101DT]

Are Silesian really Poles ?

Of course not;

the ones living their now, yes
the real ones, no

[Mans not hot]

Are Silesian really Poles ?

Of course not;

the ones living their now, yes
the real ones, no
Time for bed, kiddo.

[101DT]

LOL

[Grenzland]

Time for bed, kiddo.

Good argument... as always. :rolleyes:

[Mans not hot]

LOL
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m06xgqBqtg1qjiso4o1_500.jpg

[101DT]

What did you win in WWII ?
most pathetic performance = polish army / 18 days Game Over
thats LOL

LOOOOOOOOOOL - Polish military!!!
http://imageshack.us/a/img43/9572/image002qom.jpg

[101DT]

Good argument... as always. :rolleyes:

So ist es nun mal das Lumpenpack; immer fundiert;

[arcticwolf]

XX why do you waste your time?

Are you really interested what they think?

Talking to them is an exercise in futility amigo. :P

[ALL]

Please show some respect for all Silesians/Germans/Poles who lost their lives in WW II. Especially for the innocent who were victims of terrible crimes by all sides.

[Grenzland]

XX doesn't stop until everyone thinks Poland is the greatest nation on earth because he thinks that's how nationalists behave! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately he still has to do a lot of work...

[ALL]

XX doesn't stop until everyone thinks Poland is the greatest nation on earth because he thinks that's how nationalists behave! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately he still has to do a lot of work...

Extending a hand in kindness is not a sign of weakness.

[101DT]

Please show some respect for all Silesians/Germans/Poles who lost their lives in WW II. Especially for the innocent who were victims of terrible crimes by all sides.

Show some respect for the Millions of Silesians that lost their homes and were chased from their land;
never to return;
Unjustly claimed by Poland and Resettled by Poles from Ukraine;
Now Silesia is one of the poorest regions in Europe; well done Polish people; - as expected

[ALL]

Show some respect for the Millions of Silesians that lost their homes and were chased from their land;
never to return;
Unjustly claimed by Poland and Resettled by Poles from Ukraine;
Now Silesia is one of the poorest regions in Europe; well done Polish people; - as expected

Was your family there or part of that migration?

[101DT]

migration?
what migration;

[ALL]

migration?
what migration;

What part of Silesia is your family from?

[Kazimiera]

My grandmother left Breslau/Wroclaw right at the beginning of the war.

[ALL]

My grandmother left Breslau/Wroclaw right at the beginning of the war.
My family left after the Russians came in.

[Kazimiera]

She spent a lot of time at Thalheim. Im Erzgebirge - I don't know what it is in English. I still have many photos of her during this time when she was here. She was in the Arbeitsdienst for young ladies, who had to help farmers etc. She was 13 in 1939 and 19 when the war ended. I think she may have been sent to Thalheim at the beginning of the war, but I might be mistaken. :confused:

I know she experienced a number of bombing in Berlin, and I know she was in Dresden. But I am not sure at what time. She used to talk about phosphorous bombing but I'm also not sure where all it was used.

[Mans not hot]

XX doesn't stop until everyone thinks Poland is the greatest nation on earth because he thinks that's how nationalists behave! :rolleyes:
:picard1:

Stop putting words in my mouth.

[Grenzland]

Only if you stop acting like a child, brave soldier of the Polish army!

[Peterski]

From the "Dictionary of races or peoples" published by the United States Immigration Commission in year 1911:

https://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofrace00unitrich#page/128/mode/1up/search/Silesian

https://i.imgur.com/CGfoJAs.png

^^^
It was a geographical term applied to multi-ethnic (Polish, German, Jewish, Czech) inhabitants of the region.

No Silesian ethnicity was heard of by the U.S. Immigration Commission, despite Silesian immigration since 1854:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panna_Maria,_Texas

Today if you look at U.S. census question about ethnic ancestry, there are no Americans who reply "Silesian" there.

People promoting a separate (neither Polish nor German) Silesian "ethnicity" emerged only in the last few decades.

[lonewolfcypriot]

Silesians are ancient South Europeans who migrated North. They were fleeing Christians who were persecuted by the Romans. Silesian is a corrupted version of the word Sicilian

[Mingle]

From the "Dictionary of races or peoples" published by the United States Immigration Commission in year 1911:

https://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofrace00unitrich#page/128/mode/1up/search/Silesian

https://i.imgur.com/CGfoJAs.png

^^^
It was a geographical term applied to multi-ethnic (Polish, German, Jewish, Czech) inhabitants of the region.

No Silesian ethnicity was heard of by the U.S. Immigration Commission, despite Silesian immigration since 1854:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panna_Maria,_Texas

Today if you look at U.S. census question about ethnic ancestry, there are no Americans who reply "Silesian" there.

People promoting a separate (neither Polish nor German) Silesian "ethnicity" emerged only in the last few decades.

Don't they have their own language?

What ethnicity did people from Czech Silesia identify as (both traditionally and currently)?

[Roy]

Yes, if you mean Ślązacy.

[Peterski]

Don't they have their own language?

Śląski (Silesian) is a dialect of Polish, mutually intelligible with Standard Polish, just like Schlesisch is a dialect of German.

In the U.S. if you visit Panna Maria in Texas you will find old people who still speak Silesian there as their native tongue.

This woman for example is speaking in Silesian Polish (a variety from around Opole, that's where they came from in 1854):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do6-r7ImtVA

Another one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMrOlYUlhkU

In Panna Maria even 5th-6th generation immigrants still spoke Polish, unlike in Chicago where "Anglicization" was much faster.


What ethnicity did people from Czech Silesia identify as (both traditionally and currently)?

Czech Silesia is where Polish minority in Czech Republic lives, for example Ewa Farna:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewa_Farna

But it has always been a multi-ethnic region too.

The distinction between Czech Silesia and the rest dates back only to the 1740s when Prussia occupied most of Silesia and just a smaller part remained under Austrian / Habsburg rules. Modern Czech Republic also owns a small part of Prussian Silesia, which was given to them in 1919:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hlučín_Region

[Peterski]

"Polish History in America until 1900" (there are Polish & English editions), published in 1905:

http://liturgicalcenter.org/media//pdfy/Polonia/Polonia/

In volume 6 you can find details about Polish Silesians in Texas:

http://liturgicalcenter.org/media//pdfy/Polonia/Polonia/POL_6.pdf

According to that book, in 1866 Panna Maria had 3000 inhabitants: 100% Polish Silesians.

San Antonio had at that time (1866) ca. 15,000 inhabitants including 4000 Silesian Poles.

Volume 1:

http://liturgicalcenter.org/media//pdfy/Polonia/Polonia/POL_1.pdf

=====

As for Austrian Silesia, as you know Poland also owns one part of it, since the end of WW1.

Here is data from 1921 census about ethnicity and religion in Polish part of Cieszyn Silesia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/%C5%9Al%C4%85sk_Cieszy%C5%84ski-Polska_spis_powszechny_1921.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cieszyn_Silesia

https://i.imgur.com/f8edyLN.png

[Mingle]

Śląski (Silesian) is a dialect of Polish, mutually intelligible with Standard Polish, just like Schlesisch is a dialect of German.

In the U.S. if you visit Panna Maria in Texas you will find old people who still speak Silesian there as their native tongue.

As a non-Polish speaker, I won't lecture you on how mutually intelligible Silesian and Polish are, but I will say that multiple Silesians and non-Silesian Poles have told me that Silesian is a separate language in the past. So I'm not sure what to think.

I've only heard people say that Silesian and Kashubian are not part of the Polish language. How come occasionally you will hear people saying that Silesian is a separate language and occasionally you will run into Silesian regionalists/separatists, but not the same for Masovia? I never heard of any Masovian regionalists/separatists existing and I never heard of a Masov claiming their dialect was a separate language. Why is Masovia's situation somewhat different to Silesia's?


Czech Silesia is where Polish minority in Czech Republic lives, for example Ewa Farna:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewa_Farna

But it has always been a multi-ethnic region too.

So most inhabitants of Czech Silesia identify as ethnic Polish rather than ethnic Silesian? That's interesting. I just checked the 2011 Czech census and it seems like 0.4% of Czech citizens identify as Polish and 0.1% identify as Silesian. Not what I would have expected.

Also, there's a very large portion of Czechia that doesn't identify with any ethnicity. About 26% of Czech citizens are "others/undeclared" on the ethnicity census. That's pretty strange.


The distinction between Czech Silesia and the rest dates back only to the 1740s when Prussia occupied most of Silesia and just a smaller part remained under Austrian / Habsburg rules. Modern Czech Republic also owns a small part of Prussian Silesia, which was given to them in 1919:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hlučín_Region

Why was Czechia given part of Prussian Silesia? Why didn't the whole thing go to Poland?

[Peterski]

Mingle,

Where did you run into those Silesians you talked to? Did you talk to them in real life, in the USA?

I checked the U.S. Census of year 2000 - "Ancestry Question" - and I found almost no people identifying as Silesians there. I found millions of Germans and Poles, but if I remember correctly "Silesian" ancestry was declared just by a few hundred people all over the U.S.

How come that "Silesian-American" is a very insignificant Ancestry, with just few hundred Americans identifying with it in 2000 census? That is especially weird considering that Prussian Poles (and this includes Prussian Silesia) was the largest subgroup of Poles in the USA.

Waclaw Kruszka (himself from Prussian Poland) gives the following data in his book:

Number of Catholic Polish-Americans in the USA in year 1900:

First generation immigrants:

- 650,000 German-born Poles (Prussian Poles)
- 580,000 Russian-born Poles (Russian Poles)
- 200,000 Austrian-born Poles (Austrian Poles)

American-born Poles (2nd, 3rd, etc. generation immigrants):

- 450,000 to 550,000

Polish-Americans of other and unknown origin:

- 20,000

Grand Total of Catholic Polish-Americans for year 1900:

1,900,000 to 2,000,000


As non-Polish speaker, I won't lecture you on how mutually intelligible Silesian and Polish are, but I will say that multiple Silesians and non-Silesian Poles have told me that Silesian is a separate language in the past. So I'm not sure what to think.

Well here is what Dorothy Pawelek says in that video (in Silesian):

"Joł jest Dorka, joł jest Dorota Pawelek. Jo się urodziła w Teksasie, moi ojcowie byli Aleksander Pollock i Anna Moczygemba-Pollock. Oni mieli siedem dzieci a jo była ta najmodszo. Jok jo było 23 lot staro, joł się wydała do Alojza Pawelka. I my mieli jedna dziołcha, się nazywał Susan a ona ma dziołszka się nazywa Eden. Jok jo była piećdziesiot dziewieć lot staro, jo owdowiała i tera mieszkom sama. Jok ja była mała dziołszka w doma, to my ino rzędziły po polsku. (...)"

I understand everything, and in Standard Polish it would be like this:

"Nazywam się Dorka, Dorota Pawelek. Urodziłam się w Teksasie, moimi przodkami byli Aleksander Pollock i Anna Moczygemba-Pollock. Oni mieli siedmioro dzieci a ja byłam najmłodsza. Kiedy miałam 23 lata, to wyszłam za Alojza Pawelka. I mieliśmy jedną córką, nazywała się Susan, a ona ma córeczkę która nazywa się Eden. Gdy miałam 59 lat to owdowiałam i teraz mieszkam sama. Kiedy byłam małą dziewczynką, w domu rozmawialiśmy tylko po polsku. (...)"

And so on, and so on...

Here you have a video showing Silesians from Poland visiting Texas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i-ag1ebTrs

And these Polish Silesians say that Texas Silesians speak better Silesian than themselves.

Quote one (translated to English): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFfh1DDZlfI#t=573

"Old people who live there [in Texas] speak really excellent Silesian (...) in Chicago the 2nd generation already forgets Polish, they become English-speakers really fast, while in Panna Maria and this area - Cestochowa, Kosciusko, Saint Hedwig - this [language] survived."

Quote two (translated to English): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i-ag1ebTrs#t=655

"It is very touching, that we come here to America, and they speak like us - in Silesian. They preserved this dialect, with which their ancestors came here, and it is actually kind of untouched here, kind of archaic. (...) They actually speak better Silesian here than we do."

[Mingle]

Mingle, where did you find these Silesians you talked to? Because I checked U.S. Census of 2000 "Ancestry Question" and I found almost no people identifying as Silesians. I found millions of Germans and Poles, but if I remember correctly "Silesian" ancestry was declared just by a few hundred people.

Online, mainly reddit :lol: Also, the sample size was fairly small I'll admit. They were on threads regarding European languages, if I find one then I'll link it to you and you can set them straight.

Here is one comment from YouTube:


I'm silesian. Thanks for the video!

As a matter of fact a lot of us doesn't consider ourselves to be polish, the whole region isn't even in Poland. There are many grammatical an phonological differences between polish and silesian.

Sadly, many Poles see us as a threat, kids don't learn neither our language, nor our history. And The Association of People of Silesian Nationality got banned

He probably represents only a very tiny minority of Silesians judging by the other comments I've seen. But I just linked him so you don't think I'm crazy for suggesting there are Silesians that don't consider their speech a dialect of Polish. Most of the people in the comments section said it was mutually intelligible with Polish and this was only one guy. This was the video btw. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKW0fa4Y9m4)

Would you say that Silesian is basically Polish with more German and Czech loanwords?

Also, I found this comment under the video. What is he talking about?



Real silesian (old silesian) was related with Moravian.
Exist modern also German-Silesian.
Silesian is now destroyed and technicaly dead language.
In Czech and Poland speaking in silesian was bannned - mainly in communist period.

Thanks for the info regarding Silesian-Americans. I never heard of Texas Silesian before today.

[Peterski]

Also, I found this comment under the video. What is he talking about?


Real silesian (old silesian) was related with Moravian.

^^^
In 1861 Prussian Province Silesia had over 700,000 Poles against only 60,000 Moravians and Czechs, as Weinhold wrote:

https://i.imgur.com/HCVyCO7.jpg

These people are crazy: one glance into historical sources (no matter Polish or German) and all their claims are debunked:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?271066-Kingdom-of-Prussia-ethnic-and-religious-structure-in-the-1800s

[Mingle]

^^^
In 1861 Prussian Province Silesia had over 700,000 Poles against only 60,000 Moravians and Czechs, as Weinhold wrote:

https://i.imgur.com/HCVyCO7.jpg

These people are crazy: one glance into historical sources (no matter Polish or German) and all their claims are debunked.

I see, guess he was a loon. One thing I have been wondering about is why do Silesian autonomists exist (even if to a small degree) but Masovian autonomists are completely non-existent? Only Silesia and Kashubia seem to have them, never heard of autonomists from other Polish regions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Upper_Silesians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Autonomy_Movement

Also, why is Czech Silesia not part of Poland?

[Peterski]

I see, guess he was a loon. One thing I have been wondering about is why do Silesian autonomists exist (even if to a small degree) but Masovian autonomists are completely non-existent?

Masovians have the capital city - Warsaw. Why would they want autonomy if they are the boss now? Also Silesia (the Polish part of it) had autonomy within the Second Polish Republic between 1921-1939, but it later was taken away from them by the Commies.


Also, why is Czech Silesia not part of Poland?

Austrian Silesia consisted of several duchies, of which mostly ethnic Polish was only the Duchy of Cieszyn (Teschen):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/%C3%96sterreichisch-Schlesien_1746_en.svg/1280px-%C3%96sterreichisch-Schlesien_1746_en.svg.png

The Duchy of Cieszyn is currently divided between Poland and Czech Republic.

But the current division is not along ethnic lines - a large area with ethnically Polish population remained in Czechoslovakia after WW2.


Would you say that Silesian is basically Polish with more German and Czech loanwords?

I don't even see that many German loanwords in rural Silesian.

This is mainly a feature of a variety of Silesian spoken in the Industrial District, where German-speakers were the majority.

Katowice for example was once a mostly German-speaking city, while villages near Opole were Polish - but the former (Katowice) was in Poland in the Inter-War Period, while the latter stayed in Germany. After the division of Upper Silesia between Poland and Germany in 1921.


I've only heard people say that Silesian and Kashubian are not part of the Polish language.

Kashubian is much harder to understand for me than Silesian. But Silesian sounds like broken Polish and I understand everything. I guess for Kashubian you could argue that it is a separate language (though there are also linguists who consider it a dialect of Polish), but the idea that Silesian is not a dialect of Polish is just purely political. Another thing is that Silesian has many local varieties (around a dozen).

What some circles promote as "Silesian language" is a variety spoken in the Industrial District.

This is not the same variety as Texas Silesian, because Texas Silesians came from rural areas.

One feature of the variety spoken in the Industrial District is high number of German loanwords, much higher than in Rural Silesian.

=====

There is also Polish Lower Silesian, which survived in the borderland between Lower Silesia and my region (Greater Poland).

Here is example of Lower Silesian Polish spoken by a native of Dziadowa Kłoda (Kunzendorf), Józef Kurzawa (1888-1967):

http://www.dziadowakloda.pl/content.php?mod=sub&cms_id=40

"Jo pochodza z Dziadowej Kłody, z rodziny Kurzaków, Mój storek mioł 106 lat, jak umarł. Mój łociec buł przy melioracyje w firmie Thalheim z Oleśnice. Gospodarstwa ni mieli. Matka nie robiła wcale, chodziła prać do zamku i do lejśnicego, bo łociec ji robić nie doł, bo na nią zarobił. Jo się urodziuł w Dziadowej Kłodzie 5 I 1888 roku. Poki zech bół mały, to zech w dóma buł. Jakech sejś lot skóńcuł, to zech sed do skoły powszechnej . Tam buło ucóno po miymiecku. Ale jo umiał po polsku, bo my w dóma tez jyno po polsku gwarzyli. W kościele buło łodprowiane trzi razy w miesióncu po polsku, a Roz po miymiecku. Tak długo bóło łodprawiane po polsku, póki Hitler nie nastoł. A jak Hitler nastół, to po tym buło zminióno, to ksióndz jyno po miymiecku łodprowiali, a przed Polaków buła piyrso niedziela po pirsym. Wtedy buł ksióndz Franciszek Hajduk. Z początku to łon jesce łodprowioł kazdo niedziela przed polskich ludzi po miyniecku nabozyństwie, ale potym buło zakazane, Musioł się podpisać, bo jak nie, to by go zamkli. Na katejusek to chodzi do probosca po polsku. Tyn nowiynksy Miemiec Musioł się po polsku nauczyć. A w Dziadowej Kłodzie buły nobarzy polskie rodziny. Jak ci starzy ludzie, to nir umieli po miymiecku sowa. Buły takie polskie nazwiska we wsi, jak Frania, Sikora, Kozica, Kmieć. Jak zech bułchłopcem, to chodzili wisiorze Biyli nos,a my się skryli pod łozka, abo za szafa, ale łuni nos wsyndzie wynojdli. A jak my poradzili batać, to my dastali. Jak zem ze skoły wysad, to zech chodził pa pańskie woły zaprzóngać za rataja, bo Łociec mioł rola ładnajyntóm z tego majóntku i jo Musioł iś odrobić, Buły marne grose, com zarobił no ale co buło robić. I to zech robił trzi lata. Potym mie łociec wzioń do rurków. Doł mi dugi szpadel, co buł dugsy jak jo, a Musioł zech robić. Toch robił przi rurkach, póki zech do wojska, nie sed. A tyn majóntek, coch w nim robiu, należał do zech wojska, nie sed. A ten majóntek coch w nim robił, nalezoł do pronca Birona von Kurland. Łon mioł 99 folwarków. Mioł regimiynt wojska trzymać, ale łon chciał żeby mu dali kónne jegry, bo łon przi tych suseł, to łon by łuł kasernis ze swoje pinióndze wybudowoł i buł by tyn cołki regimint wojska utrzimoł, ale łoni chcieli dać samo piychota i to na to nie przistoł. I to bez wojska nie buło w Sycowie. I bez to tyz niy mioł sto folwarków, bo wtedy by Musioł wojsko trzimac łon miyskoł w Sycowie na zamku. Mioł tela pokoi, ile dni bóło w roku. Tyn zamek spoloł się w ostatniy wojnie. Teroz go nima. W 1909 roku sed zech d i wojska . Suzuł zech w Opolu. Na nos mówili „ regiment szwung” , a na tyn pułk 22 to mówili „ karczmarki”. Ta byli nojwiyncyj tacy, co po miymiecku nie poradzyli. Łon stoł w Koxlu. Jakym wojsko pozbył, psised zech do dóm i zaś zym sed z łojcym do tryniyrki do melioracje. Myślołech ze na dugsy cas ale w śtymatym roku wybuchła piryso światowo wojna i Musiołach iś do wojny. Bułym łod cwortygo siypnia 1914 roku Az do 1.10.1915 roku we Francje. Tam zech buł ciynsko ranny i psysed zech nazad i juzach potym wiynksy do wojska nie Musioł iś. W lazarycie zech buł w Szpajer Am Reihn i we Wrocławiu. Bułach ranny w gowa granatszplitrem. Bo bo buło tak jo zech kąsek gowa za wysoko podniósł z rowu i bez to zech dostoł sztajfno. Nie poradza się schylić, nie poradza ze sóm trzewików łobuć- musi mi złóna pomagać. Jakech wrócił ze spitala do Dziadowej Kłody, nó to razy zech nie dostoł nic rynty. Łociec Bi mi ta uzywiuł, ale jo nie chciał, żeby łociec mioł na takiego wielkygo chopaka robić. Tokach zaś sed do rurków i robił, com poradził ,ale jednak już to tam nie buło. 1917 roku zech się łozyniół- trzynaście dzieci buło. Zóna moja buła Gdowa po poległym koledze. Jedna córka umarła w klostorze, jak miała 22 lata. Za młodu chciała iśc do klasztoru, nó jo i tam nie bróniuł, ale jej to nie Szuło i jak miałe być przisttrojóno zasiostre umarła. Tero ni móm nikogo i jest zech abyz moją zónom, przi sobie mowimy nucka Józia. Jedyn syn jes w Moskwie, Eli zyje to jo nie wiym. Drugi syn jes pod amerykańską okupacją. Tyn pise iśle mi packi. Dwie córki móm wydane w Brzegu, a drugie dzieci, to nic wiym, gdzie się podziały. Potym buł tyn związek ciężkich inwalidów, no to łoni się ło mnie starali. W 1945 roku 20 stycznia Dziadowa Kłoda buła ewakuowano i Miymcy powiedzieli, ze kot nie wyjdzie, to byndzie za śpiona traktowany i byndzie zastrzelony. I byli by ich pozastrzelali, bo pora Polaków łostało, ale ni mieli casu, bo ruscy wleźli do wsi i ich łod tego obroni. W 50 tym roku gadali we wsi o spółdzielni produkcyjnej. To my się ta zgłosili. Byli my na zebraniu, to jo się doł zapisać. Jo Nizioł nic, z próznymi rynkóma zech posed, ale mie psyyjli. Po roku dostałech piyrse pinóndze, dobrze zym zarobił. Drugi rok to jesce sło, ale na trzeci rok, to już zbankrociyli. Jedni mówión ze psepiyli, ale to nie wiadomo, bo nik im tego nie poradził dokazać. No tera nie robia nic- tero zyja z rynty, to idzie. Głodny spać nie chodza i łoblec tyz co móm.

Nojwiynksy o dawnych casach łopowiadoł mi mój storek. Rozmaite bojki, jak piyrze darli, ło kosiniyrce, jak to w Dziadowej Kłodzie powstanie przeciwko panom robili, a kónie to oze bez wrota skokały. Ale ich rozbiyli, bo psisko miymieckie wojsko i dali już nie poradzili. Ło wojnie francuskiej mi tez łopowiadali i z tych casów taką śpiywke zaśpiewali, a jo ją zapomiyntoł."

[Peterski]

Only Silesia and Kashubia seem to have them

There is no Kashubian autonomy movement. Silesia had autonomy in 1921-1939, so they kind of have a point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Voivodeship_(1920%E2%80%9339)#Politics


Why was Czechia given part of Prussian Silesia?

Because that part (Hlucin Region) had ethnic Moravian majority.

But I don't think that the Entente paid attention to ethnicity when giving land to Czechs. Britain was very Pro-Czech.

After all they gave ca. 3-4 million ethnic Germans in Sudetenland under Czech rule, against the will of those Germans:

http://dspace.gipe.ac.in/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10973/34252/GIPE-011417.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y

https://i.imgur.com/UBgYERJ.png

[Mingle]

Masovians have the capital city - Warsaw. Why would they want autonomy if they are the boss now?

Bad example I guess. I meant to ask why regionalist movements outside Silesia (and Kashubia) are non-existent.


Also Silesia (the Polish part of it) had autonomy within the Second Polish Republic between 1921-1939

Why was it given autonomy in the Second Polish Republic?


There is no Kashubian autonomy movement.

It's smaller, but exists/existed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasz%C3%ABbsk%C3%B4_Jednota

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florian_Ceynowa


Because it had Moravian majority.

The Czech-administered part of Silesia is majority Czech/Moravian? Was it always this way?

[Peterski]

Why was it given autonomy in the Second Polish Republic?

Mainly because it had a large German minority.

The part of Upper Silesia which remained in Germany, also had a large Polish minority (there were minorities left on both sides of the border).


The Czech-administered part of Silesia is majority Czech/Moravian? Was it always this way?

Not really, before WW2 Duchy of Cieszyn was mostly Polish and the rest of Czech Silesia was mostly German (and was part of Sudetenland).

But Czechs/Moravians were the majority in some parts.


It's smaller, but exists/existed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasz%C3%ABbsk%C3%B4_Jednota

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florian_Ceynowa

This movement is not about autonomy but just about cultural preservation.


I meant to ask why regionalist movements outside Silesia (and Kashubia) are non-existent.

They are not non-existent as far as I know. The premise is wrong. Maybe they are just not so loud.