N1b1b (mtdna) In Europe

[CordedWhelp]

What are some likely scenarios in which such a haplogroup would be present in someone with immediate ancestry from East/Northeast Europe? (My Maternal Grandmother was Polish/Polonized Russian/Rusyn). I understand that N1b2 is seen among eastern European Ashkenazim, but I have seen no known frequency of my subclade in them.

[CordedWhelp]

Bump

[CordedWhelp]

any theories, yo?

It appears to have Some frequency in Europe, even if rare. I have not found any actual statistics, though. Do we know where it is found most frequently in Europe?

[CordedWhelp]

Someone once suggested a so-called Neolithic Farmer answer to this question. I find this is only interesting though, if there is one or more archaelogical culture in what is now Europe with genetic material loaded with N1b's.

[dhunter93]

If your 16176A thats the Jewish marker if your 16176G that's the standard gentile version. The 16176G is found in low frequency all over Europe.

[CordedWhelp]

If your 16176A thats the Jewish marker if your 16176G that's the standard gentile version. The 16176G is found in low frequency all over Europe.

I know this is months old.

I'm aware of the difference and point of my post is how the subclade got into Europe. Yes, N1b2 is more associated with Ashkenazim. (I have seen some Ashkenazim with my haplogroup, though, interestingly)

Point was, is it Neolithic? Earlier? It is a rare group nevertheless...

Interestingly, although 23 has it has N1b1b, I uploaded the raw data to WeGene and it was estimated as the highly related but nevertheless different subclade of N1b1a2. Also, ran it on Jameslick's mtdna site and get this:

Best mtDNA Haplogroup Matches:

1) N1b1a2

Defining Markers for haplogroup N1b1a2:
HVR2: 73G 152C 263G
CR: 750G 1438G 1598A 1703T 1719A 2639T 2706G 3921A 4769G 4904T 4960T 5471A 7028T 8251A 8472T 8836G 8860G 9335T 10238C 11362G 11719A 12501A 12705T 12822G 14766T 15326G
HVR1: 16145A 16176G 16223T 16390A

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup N1b1a2 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 12705T 16223T ⇨ N ⇨ 1719A ⇨ N1'5 ⇨ 10238C 12501A ⇨ N1 ⇨ 152C 1598A 2639T 5471A 8251A 8836G 16176G 16390A ⇨ N1b ⇨ 1703T 3921A 4960T 8472T 12822G 16145A ⇨ N1b1 ⇨ 9335T 11362G ⇨ N1b1a ⇨ 4904T ⇨ N1b1a2 ⇨ 13967T (16519C)

Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(27): 73G 152C 263G 750G 1438G 1598A 1719A 2639T 2706G 4769G 4904T 4960T 5471A 7028T 8251A 8472T 8860G 9335T 10238C 11362G 11719A 12501A 12705T 14766T 16145A 16223T 16390A
Mismatches(1): 16176C
Flips(2): 1703A 3921T
Extras(1): 13967T (16519C)
No-Calls(2): 8836G 12822G
Untested(1): 15326


2) N1b1a

Defining Markers for haplogroup N1b1a:
HVR2: 73G 152C 263G
CR: 750G 1438G 1598A 1703T 1719A 2639T 2706G 3921A 4769G 4960T 5471A 7028T 8251A 8472T 8836G 8860G 9335T 10238C 11362G 11719A 12501A 12705T 12822G 14766T 15326G
HVR1: 16145A 16176G 16223T 16390A

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup N1b1a (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 12705T 16223T ⇨ N ⇨ 1719A ⇨ N1'5 ⇨ 10238C 12501A ⇨ N1 ⇨ 152C 1598A 2639T 5471A 8251A 8836G 16176G 16390A ⇨ N1b ⇨ 1703T 3921A 4960T 8472T 12822G 16145A ⇨ N1b1 ⇨ 9335T 11362G ⇨ N1b1a ⇨ 4904T 13967T (16519C)

Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(26): 73G 152C 263G 750G 1438G 1598A 1719A 2639T 2706G 4769G 4960T 5471A 7028T 8251A 8472T 8860G 9335T 10238C 11362G 11719A 12501A 12705T 14766T 16145A 16223T 16390A
Mismatches(1): 16176C
Flips(2): 1703A 3921T
Extras(2): 4904T 13967T (16519C)
No-Calls(2): 8836G 12822G
Untested(1): 15326


2) N1b1a2a

Defining Markers for haplogroup N1b1a2a:
HVR2: 73G 152C 263G
CR: 750G 1438G 1598A 1703T 1719A 2639T 2706G 3921A 4769G 4904T 4960T 5471A 7028T 8251A 8264T 8472T 8836G 8860G 9335T 10238C 11362G 11719A 12501A 12705T 12822G 14766T 15326G
HVR1: 16145A 16176G 16223T 16390A

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup N1b1a2a (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 12705T 16223T ⇨ N ⇨ 1719A ⇨ N1'5 ⇨ 10238C 12501A ⇨ N1 ⇨ 152C 1598A 2639T 5471A 8251A 8836G 16176G 16390A ⇨ N1b ⇨ 1703T 3921A 4960T 8472T 12822G 16145A ⇨ N1b1 ⇨ 9335T 11362G ⇨ N1b1a ⇨ 4904T ⇨ N1b1a2 ⇨ 8264T ⇨ N1b1a2a ⇨ 13967T (16519C)

Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(27): 73G 152C 263G 750G 1438G 1598A 1719A 2639T 2706G 4769G 4904T 4960T 5471A 7028T 8251A 8472T 8860G 9335T 10238C 11362G 11719A 12501A 12705T 14766T 16145A 16223T 16390A
Mismatches(2): 8264C 16176C
Flips(2): 1703A 3921T
Extras(1): 13967T (16519C)
No-Calls(2): 8836G 12822G
Untested(1): 15326


3) N1b1a6

Defining Markers for haplogroup N1b1a6:
HVR2: 73G 152C 263G
CR: 750G 1438G 1598A 1703T 1719A 2639T 2706G 3921A 4769G 4960T 5471A 7010T 7028T 8251A 8469C 8472T 8836G 8860G 9335T 10238C 11362G 11719A 12501A 12705T 12822G 14766T 15326G
HVR1: 16145A 16176G 16223T 16390A

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup N1b1a6 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 12705T 16223T ⇨ N ⇨ 1719A ⇨ N1'5 ⇨ 10238C 12501A ⇨ N1 ⇨ 152C 1598A 2639T 5471A 8251A 8836G 16176G 16390A ⇨ N1b ⇨ 1703T 3921A 4960T 8472T 12822G 16145A ⇨ N1b1 ⇨ 9335T 11362G ⇨ N1b1a ⇨ 7010T 8469C ⇨ N1b1a6 ⇨ 4904T 13967T (16519C)

Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(26): 73G 152C 263G 750G 1438G 1598A 1719A 2639T 2706G 4769G 4960T 5471A 7028T 8251A 8472T 8860G 9335T 10238C 11362G 11719A 12501A 12705T 14766T 16145A 16223T 16390A
Mismatches(1): 16176C
Flips(2): 1703A 3921T
Extras(2): 4904T 13967T (16519C)
No-Calls(2): 8836G 12822G
Untested(3): 7010 8469 15326

[CordedWhelp]

Bump

[Hamlet]

The 23andme version will be correct over those predictor websites, I'm N1b2 and some predictor websites have given me N1b1-somethings (wrong). From what I've read N1b1 is unlikely to be Jewish in origin, I mean I've seen some people with Irish maternal roots having it, and Jews never really set foot there.

[Hamlet]

And if you want to rest assured, Bennett Greenspan (of FTDNA) is also of the opinion that N1b1 is not Jewish.

[CordedWhelp]

And if you want to rest assured, Bennett Greenspan (of FTDNA) is also of the opinion that N1b1 is not Jewish.

Well aware of much of this. Point was not "is it Jew?" but simply "what is it?". Not sure what any modern scholarship has mentioned regarding the N1b presence in Europe. I guess "probably Neolithic" is the answer most would say.

[Hamlet]

Well aware of much of this. Point was not "is it Jew?" but simply "what is it?". Not sure what any modern scholarship has mentioned regarding the N1b presence in Europe. I guess "probably Neolithic" is the answer most would say.

I think it seems Neolithic too lol, Anatolian/Northern Fertile Crescent/Southern Caucasus to be precise.

[Arduti]

Haplogroups and admixtures are not good indicators of Jewishness. There have been MANY conversions into Judaism which diversifies those that should be included, but also does not and should not include everyone from that subclade as being Jewish.

[CordedWhelp]

Hmm, I've been doing some research and I'm not sure I've found anything real solid suggesting N1b (the core subclade) has been found before that one Natufian individual found to be mtdna N1b. Anyone know of earlier confirmed samples?

Am I to assume my mtdna-bearer was a Natufian or Natufian-related lady, begetting descendants and daughters who found their way to the Caucasus who's descendants found themselves wound up with early indo europeans and then found themselves in eastern europe with an eventual Slavic identity?

[CordedWhelp]

bump?

[dhunter93]

N1B is form the Caucasus and migration went into Europe and into the Near East.



As far as the Jewish N1B2

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301023/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/

[CordedWhelp]

N1B is form the Caucasus and migration went into Europe and into the Near East.



As far as the Jewish N1B2

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301023/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/

The "Neolithic" explanation of my subclade other people have been guessing seems off to me-there is a complete paucity (somebody correct me if I am wrong) of N1B in Neolithic Europe, only N1a is abundant. I might more think it came later during the Bronze Age, Caucasus women brought over by Corded Ware (or at least Yamna) broskis.

What's also interesting is although my subclade is found over much of Europe (albeit mostly in Very small fractions of a percent), it seems to exhibit somewhat elevated frequencies in formerly fringe areas that Indo Europeans migrated to; the southern Baltic, the eastern Mediterranean shores/Boot of Italy, and Ireland. Most examples of N1b I've seen online have been folks from these three areas (in Europe, that is)

It's kinda clear to me that "farmer" MTDNA in Europe is from two similar-but-somewhat-different sources: Sardinian-like folks from Anatolia who came during the Neolithic, and people (perhaps exclusively women) direct from the Caucasus who came a little later during the Metal ages, brought over by their horse-riding husbands.

Now the question is, which haplos do we assume to have come from the former and which ones from the latter?

I'm wondering who spread most of the H in Europe. eNeolithic/Copper Age Bell Beakers? It kind of is astonishing to me how 23andme STILL says H1 and H3 were post-LGM lineages. People have been questioning that narrative since at least like 2006.

[CordedWhelp]

The "Neolithic" explanation of my subclade other people have been guessing seems off to me-there is a complete paucity (somebody correct me if I am wrong) of N1B in Neolithic Europe, only N1a is abundant. I might more think it came later during the Bronze Age, Caucasus women brought over by Corded Ware (or at least Yamna) broskis.

What's also interesting is although my subclade is found over much of Europe (albeit mostly in Very small fractions of a percent), it seems to exhibit somewhat elevated frequencies in formerly fringe areas that Indo Europeans migrated to; the southern Baltic, the eastern Mediterranean shores/Boot of Italy, and Ireland. Most examples of N1b I've seen online have been folks from these three areas (in Europe, that is)

It's kinda clear to me that "farmer" MTDNA in Europe is from two similar-but-somewhat-different sources: Sardinian-like folks from Anatolia who came during the Neolithic, and people direct from the Caucasus who came a little later during the Metal ages.

Now the question is, which haplos do we assume to have come from the former and which ones from the latter?

Actually I don't know why I listed the eastern Med as an example of those "fringe" places- it was actually quite a hopping place both during, before, and after the bronze age. Don't mind me.

[CordedWhelp]

Hmm, I suppose I was wrong! I've been doing some talking with someone "in the biz"- apparently my subclade is associated with the SEE Neolithic (Bukk-Tizsa-Eastern Linear Pottery, etc)

Slightly different note: I wonder if mtdna N1b could be considered to be a Basal Eurasian clade.....

[CordedWhelp]

bump.

[dhunter93]

I am not sure what you are looking for? N1B even the Ashkenazi (16176A) is from Europe https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543
N1b originates is the Caucasus, what's your concern?

[CordedWhelp]

I am not sure what you are looking for? N1B even the Ashkenazi (16176A) is from Europe https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543
N1b originates is the Caucasus, what's your concern?

Hmm? Nothing, man, only "musing" over the origin of my mtdna haplogroup. It's pretty little understood.

I agree that the haplogroup probably did not arise from Ashkenazi ethnogenesis, although the N1b2 subclade (which I believe is what you are referencing) probably did first arise in Italy or just east of there.

And what is the evidence that the Caucasus is the origin-point? N1b is rather old in the Levant, and I am not aware of any samples older than the Natufian individual who was found to belong to the haplogroup. It can actually probably be considered to be one of the subclades of haplogroups derived directly from "Basal Eurasians". That is speculation, but likely nevertheless. In turn, I believe one (or more?) of my precise subclade (N1b1b) was found among those Balkan Neolithic cultures (just east/southeast of LBK).

[Dick]

check this out

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?283074-First-Anatolian-farmers-were-local-hunter-gatherers-that-adopted-agriculture

[CordedWhelp]

check this out

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?283074-First-Anatolian-farmers-were-local-hunter-gatherers-that-adopted-agriculture

Referring to the Natufians? I edited my earlier comment to acknowledge them. Like I said, it's a very Levantine Mesolithic/Neolithic lineage (N1b itself, that is).

I will say, though, While more of the Ashkenazi N1b is N1b2, a disproportionately high amount Do seem to carry my subclade, particularly among Litvaks. No doubt it was "Picked up" in Eastern Europe. It is not really found in Ashkenazim outside of the old Pale.

So, N1b chills in the Levant for some time, with some members migrating westward as part of the Levantine component that went into what would become the Anatolian farmers. Did then N1b1 just see a branch go up into the caucasus, and another into Anatolia (And then Europe from there?)

Or is it more complicated, and is some Eastern European N1b1 from the Caucasus branch? Steppe-folk moved women around from everywhere, after all. Is all N1b1b from the Tisza Culture/Neolithic Southeast Europe?

[CordedWhelp]

Latest post on davidskis blog features a study with “proto” N1b among so called Gravettians