Why Belarusians don't speak their own language?

[Veneda]

Why don't Belarusians speak Belarusian? Why is it that most Belarusians speak Russian instead of Belarusian? Is there a chance that after decades of Russian dominance Belarus begins to reclaim her language?

http://m.cafebabel.com/cache/fd/40/fd4050dcabe37bc3d79c2928d37da564.jpg?cache=1280x50 0

Sources http://focus.solidarityby.eu/page_itvs_like_poles_would_speak_in_german_
http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/title,To-tak-jakby-Polacy-gadali-po-niemiecku,wid,13967569,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=11558 6&_ticrsn=3

It’s like Poles would speak in German

“Poles are not geese and have their own language” – as Mikolaj Rej, the first person in history to write only in Polish, once said. In this sense, we Belarusians can be called geese. Though we have our own language, we don’t use it.

- How is it possible that Belarusians don’t speak Belarusian? – asked an astonished fellow student from a Polish university I had studied at. – It’s like Poles would speak in German!

Exactly: how is it possible? – I asked myself then.

“Language-killer”

Belarus is the most Russified republic of the former USSR. In any other corner of the great empire, the Russian language hasn’t left such a significant stigma.

- The Russian language, like English in other places, was the classical “language-killer” to smaller languages of the empire, – linguist Źmicier Sauka tells me. – The rest of the languages in the USSR were exotic and served as decorations. As in Hawaii we can still find names of hotels, streets and even drinks in the language of indigenous inhabitants of these islands. But it doesn’t mean that the Hawaiian language is used or has any future, - the linguist adds.

Language of the countryside

The presence of the Russian language on Belarusian territory goes back as far as the times of Tsarist Russia. However, it obtained real domination only in the second half of the XX century, with the urbanization and development of modern means of communication. The countryside became the last mainstay of the Belarusian language.

At the turn of 80s-90s, Belarus gained independence on the wave of renaissance of native culture and language. However, in the opinion of many experts, this chance was lost due to Aliaksandr Lukashenka’s coming to power.

- We would speak in Belarusian if the authorities, the president spoke in this language, is a common reply to the question “Why don’t we speak Belarusian?”.

Ashamed to admit

The current leader of Belarus, former head of a collective farm, is the classic example of a typical inhabitant of this country, who through the centuries was taught to be ashamed of his own language and who moving from country to city gets rid of the signs of his origin.

Lukashenka had never spoken in pure Russian language and he, like a sizable part of the Belarusian population, uses “trasianka” in everyday life– a linguistic mixture, based on Russian, but containing a lot of lexical and phonetic features of the Belarusian language. For this reason, the degree of Russification of Belarusian society has reached the highest level in history. It has been almost entirely supplanted with education, media and public life.

- 20 years ago it was difficult to meet a person in Belarus who didn’t understand Belarusian, - Zmicer Sauka recalls. Indeed, the majority of urban inhabitants didn’t use it, but hardly anyone had problems with understanding. Nowadays there are more and more such people, especially among young people. And this is the sad result of the politics of Belarus’ current authorities. People born during Lukashenka’s rule don’t even understand the language of their grandparents and great-grandparents, – the linguist resumes.

The language of counterculture

Even experts cannot estimate how many Belarusians use their native language everyday. The number of users is unlikely to exceed a few percent. The field of users is very specific and is represented by two extremes: on the one hand, older rural inhabitants, on the other – a handful of educated urban inhabitants, intelligentsia. These are often people who started to learn the language at a certain point in their lives.

Usually they are regarded as freaks – in a shop, on streets, even in at home. For enthusiasts concerned with preserving the language, situations when the whole family speaks Russian and you speak Belarusian to them, when a husband uses Belarusian and wife – Russian, etc. are quite usual.

At the same time, under Lukashenka’s rule the Belarusian language has become the language of counterculture. Along with the national symbols abolished by him (and replaced by flag and coat of arms from Soviet times), the language has become a banner in the fight for freedom and against authoritarian rule. Also, because using the Belarusian language has assumed a political subtext, a person who ostensibly speaks the language immediately becomes suspicious in the authorities’ eyes.

Belarus – “the second Ireland”?

Forecasts about the future of the Belarusian language are different. Some believe that Belarusians will be able to repeat the journey, for example, of the Czechs who in the early nineteenth century pulled their native tongue out of obscurity after several centuries of Germanization. The condition for this would be a top-down policy from the government which replaces the current one.

However, an opposite example is modern Ireland. Most of the proud descendants of the Celts, who like to emphasize their separateness from Englishmen, do not use their native language in everyday life - despite years of efforts by the Irish government. Neither school, nor newspapers, nor television help.

Wicket to history

Experts advise taking a closer look. - We see how the rebirth of the Ukrainian language has advanced - Zmicier Sauka notes. - Its condition when the USSR collapsed differed little from the condition of the Belarusian language. There was a time when a person speaking in Ukrainian in Kiev was also a rarity. Today the situation has changed substantially, largely thanks to the will of the local ruling elite, - he adds.

To the tiresome question "Why do you speak in Belarusian?" in an era when most of his countrymen do not do this, the author of this article has jokingly responded for some time now: - Well, even if I were the last person on Earth who spoke Belarusian, at least ... I would go down in history.

Let’s hope not - I will add modestly at the end.

[Ivan Kramskoï]

My great grand mother was born near Brest Litovsk in the late 19th century, she considered herself Russian and only spoke Russian but didn't have a Russian family name (I guess it could have been a Belarussian name).
I don't have answer for this, perhaps because it was a very small ethnicity close to a bigger and quite close other they lost their language and a part of their culture.

[Dylan]

Well the main thing is clearly that its so heavily influenced by Russia and Russian language. The fact that Russian and Belarusian are so similar also doesn't help since people will feel comfortable speaking it much quicker. I wouldn't say that its completely comparable to the loss of Irish language in Ireland because the Brits actually punished those who spoke Irish on many occasions and in many ways forced its extinction. I think the language is just proving to be not so useful and if there aren't real any hugely nationalistic attachments to it, its naturally going to die out. I know that in some ways Ukrainian was a language mostly spoken by rural people and wasn't really important even in Ukraine up until recently, if thats also the case in Belarus, which this article seems to suggest, then that could also be a reason.

I don't find this to be particularly surprising. The only way they'll hold onto their language is through fierce attachment to it, which would probably be paired up with some sort of nationalist movement. (I.e. what the Basques have been doing ever since Franco died).

[Methmatician]

I heard that they're reintroducing Belarusian into the schools over there. The reason they speak mostly Russian now is because of Russification and suppression of the Belarusian language by Lukashenko's government.

[ЛыSSый]

та потому шо это диалект русского, основная культура таки русская, как ни верти. Это как у вас в польше диалекты повыздыхивали под влиянием общего образования и пагубного влияния литературного стандарта. А, ну да, эт всё фигня, на самом деле путин белорусов сглазил.

пс: вот шоб у нас с дыбилизирующим псевдонацизмом не выёбывались - было б как у белорусов. Во времена детства лаять на колхозном суржике считалось западло и признаком отсутствия ума и культуры (ага, на литературный вариант тямы не стало), а теперь - это повод для гордости, мол какой я невъёбанно автэнтычный, с ведром корявых русизмов с интернета и не к месту использованных англицизмов ( последний хит: лопата это "гаджет").

[ЛыSSый]

есть мнение, что белорусы правильно решили языковой вопрос по принципу: "не можешь срать - не мучай жопу", то есть при невозможности самостоятельно создать полновесное культурное и образовательное языковое пространство просто прилипли к уже существующему, экономя на этом кучу времени и средств.

Кстати, что характерно, самопальные языковые движи в беларуси имеют такой же деградантский душок, как в ридном хохлостане.

[ЛыSSый]

I heard that they're reintroducing Belarusian into the schools over there. The reason they speak mostly Russian now is because of Russification and suppression of the Belarusian language by Lukashenko's government. :picard2: It's goverment supports mainly belarussian language (look at descriptions of belarussian goods). Also: Lukashenko can't support russian language, cause he is hohol.

[Jehan]

:picard2: It's goverment supports mainly belarussian language (look at descriptions of belarussian goods). Also: Lukashenko can't support russian language, cause he is hohol.

It's the opposite. Lukashenko support the russification of the country, probably because it allow a dictator like him to stay in power in the russian way of thinking. He once said:

“nothing significant can be expressed” in belarussian.

The reintroduction of belarussian is mainly due to the young belarussian nationalist oppose to Lukashenko.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/28/-sp-russian-belarus-reclaims-language-belarusian

[drgs]

It’s like Poles would speak in German

No it isn't
The two languages are very similar to begin with, and is one of the reasons they speak it

[Loki]

It’s like Poles would speak in German


No it's not! What an ignorant statement. They are both Slavic and closely related. Here is a better example:

It's like Norwegians would speak in Swedish. :rolleyes:

Or an even better example: a Plattdeutsch (Low German) person speaking Standard High German.

[Loki]

- How is it possible that Belarusians don’t speak Belarusian?


Another comparison: "How is it possible that Lowland Scottish people don't speak Scots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language)?"

[Rugevit]

The situation for Belarusian was similar to that of Ukrainian after the break up of USSR , except for most western regions of Ukraine that was part of Austro-Hungary joining USSR only in late 30s. Ukraine has done a lot to support the Ukrainian language at state level paying a price, while the Belarusian government has done little. The issue of the language not being widely spoken is also politicised, because the opposition knows the issue is a sensitive one. For example , people who speak Russian would state in surveys their native language is Belarusian. That's good that the opposition discusses the issue, but I'd like them to do something about it such as publishin books, poems, poetries , openening classes and private schools rather than just talking about it about awefullness of Lukashenka's regime. Otherwise, it's going to look as the language issue is a political instrument.

The other thing I've discovered recently is that Poles of Belarus are most Belarusian speaking group of people. Belarusian language was always native language of Belarusian Poles, who learned Polish in schools. Polish ethnic identity was linked to Roman Catholic religion in Belarus. Maybe Catholicism helped to preserve the language among the community.

[Rugevit]

No it isn't
The two languages are very similar to begin with, and is one of the reasons they speak it

It's no more similar than Ukrainian to Russian or Slovak to Czech.

[Veneda]

No it's not! What an ignorant statement. They are both Slavic and closely related. Here is a better example:

It's like Norwegians would speak in Swedish. :rolleyes:

Or an even better example: a Plattdeutsch (Low German) person speaking Standard High German.

You are an ignorant about a history. Poland was for 123 years under partitions of Russia, Prussia and Austria and we kept our language intact.

[Methmatician]

It's like Norwegians would speak in Swedish. :rolleyes:

I think a more 'real' example would be Norwegians speaking Danish. If Norwegians didn't have any nationalist sentiment they would probably be Danes speaking Danish now.

[ЛыSSый]

You are an ignorant about a history. Poland was for 123 years under partitions of Russia, Prussia and Austria and we kept our language intact.
it just because all these empires didn't any efforts for mass education. Короч, это не ваша заслуга, это их недоработка. Само собой, это не для оскорбления, это неприятная правда.

[Bezprym]

It's no more similar than Ukrainian to Russian or Slovak to Czech.

Slovak is similar to Czech, like Belarusian to Ukrainian. Russian language differs more than Belarusian and Ukrainian.

[glass]

“nothing significant can be expressed” in belarussian.
You twist meaning of his words. Belarussian language suits only everyday simple talks. You can't discuss any serious matter in simple underdeveloped language. Btw any serious conversion in current Ukraine is held in russian as well. Ukrainian fits only simple talks and short speeches for masses. So he is absolutely right.

[Sanyok]

Belarussians were part of Russian ethnity 100 years ago, untill the bolsheviks in order to make the revolution more international proclaimed new republics. So the Belorussia was decided to be a separate nation (decided from Kremlin). They needed their language. The newly born belarussian language was a get-together of different village dialects with no established norm. (Unlikely, russian as a long-time state language with rich literary tradition had established norms) The linguist invented rules and norms of new language, but it was still artificial. Villages continued to use their dialects, while in towns and cities people were to use russian as the most comprehensible.
Something similiar took place in Ukraine. And, although russian is not a state language in Ukraine, ukranian language is more developed then belarussian, the ukrainian language is so far from science, that ukrainian nuclear power plants have only russian as working language.

[Nurzat]

why Ukrainians speak Russian? :) for us (Carpathian Ukrainians not subjected to Sovietization) Ukrainian from Ukraine sounds very Russified in pronouncing and in the very many borrowings from Russian. we Ukrainians in Romania are among the last speakers of (old, real) Ukrainian. Ukrainians from Ukraine speak Ukrainian with a very Russian accent, but they don't notice it. they are just too used to hearing and speaking Russian. I have nothing against it, I am a bit of a russophile myself. but the people around Russians are usually very attracted to Russian stuff (language, music, film...) and in former Soviet republics many non-Russians still maintain by own will a Russian cultural atmosphere (like in Moldova)

[Antimage]

Because of Russian Empire and USSR. A lot of ethnic ukrainians speak russian as well.

I don't see this as a problem to be honest

[Jehan]

You twist meaning of his words. Belarussian language suits only everyday simple talks. You can't discuss any serious matter in simple underdeveloped language. Btw any serious conversion in current Ukraine is held in russian as well. Ukrainian fits only simple talks and short speeches for masses. So he is absolutely right.

And you exageration sound like propagand.
How Belarussians achieve to get a "belarussian literature since the 16 centuries without a proper language. Belarusian literature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_literature)

[epirot]

why Ukrainians speak Russian? :) for us (Carpathian Ukrainians not subjected to Sovietization) Ukrainian from Ukraine sounds very Russified in pronouncing and in the very many borrowings from Russian. we Ukrainians in Romania are among the last speakers of (old, real) Ukrainian. Ukrainians from Ukraine speak Ukrainian with a very Russian accent, but they don't notice it. they are just too used to hearing and speaking Russian. I have nothing against it, I am a bit of a russophile myself. but the people around Russians are usually very attracted to Russian stuff (language, music, film...) and in former Soviet republics many non-Russians still maintain by own will a Russian cultural atmosphere (like in Moldova)

So you are Rusin? We have lots of those ppl in Serbia as well. A very nice ppl.

[Rugevit]

Belarussians were part of Russian ethnity 100 years ago, untill the bolsheviks in order to make the revolution more international proclaimed new republics. So the Belorussia was decided to be a separate nation (decided from Kremlin). They needed their language. The newly born belarussian language was a get-together of different village dialects with no established norm. (Unlikely, russian as a long-time state language with rich literary tradition had established norms) The linguist invented rules and norms of new language, but it was still artificial. Villages continued to use their dialects, while in towns and cities people were to use russian as the most comprehensible.
Something similiar took place in Ukraine. And, although russian is not a state language in Ukraine, ukranian language is more developed then belarussian, the ukrainian language is so far from science, that ukrainian nuclear power plants have only russian as working language.

Rubbish.
It was not part of the Russian ethnicity 100 years ago and it was never part of the Russian ethnicity. There were 3 invented ethnicities by Tsarists after partition of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (1795): Great Russians (Velikorossy), Small Russians (Malorossy, later Ukrainians) and Belarusians. Take a look at the census in 1897 , how people identified themselves or the works of ethnographers of the 18th century. Two revolutions in the 18 th centuries on the territories of Belarus against Tsarist rule and forced of conversion of Greek Catholic to Orthodoxy of the population and banning of schools in native language for Ukrainians, Belarusians and Lithuanians. One cannot invent the language. Modern literary Belarusian was codified based on central Belarusian dialects spoken in the area between Minsk and Vilnius. Older Ruthenian was a literary language on territories of Belarus in which state documents were written. Many literary European languages were codified during late 19th century. Many separate regions of former empires announced the independence based on ethnographic and linguistic differences after WWI when 3 empires (Austro-Hungarian, Russian and Prussian) were broken. Belarusian language is as developed as Ukrainian . Belarusian has not been enforced in Belarus as Ukrainian was enforced in Ukraine in the last 25 years. That's the difference.

[Rugevit]

And you exageration sound like propagand.
How Belarussians achieve to get a "belarussian literature since the 16 centuries without a proper language. Belarusian literature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_literature)

And it's a propaganda based on backward mentality of the Russians that existed to justify the territorial expansion. The propaganda was also directed at Ukrainians for a long time until Ukrainians told them to get lost. I can see this is happening in Belarus , soon after Lukashenka's regime disappears. The nationalist movement were strong in early 90s before Lukashenka's regime.

[glass]

And you exageration sound like propagand.

language is a tool, tools called ukrainian, belarussian, mordvin etc languages are simply bad. IT has nothing to do with propagnda. That is a fact. People choose to use better language. Villager whose vocubalary containts 100-150 words can be perfectly fine with ukrainian, belarussian or papuan language. If your life slightly more complicated, you would need slightly more complicated language. Thus even russophobic ukrainians speak russian language in private dicussions, chechen tell how they hate russians in russian language as well. All those muslims from former SU in ISIL communicate with each other in russian. And so on.
Lukashenko is just less retarded than those ukro-patriots. He is not playing anti-russian card either. so there is no reason to 'develop' belarussian language. This forum can be english pseaking, but can not be papuan speaking, because papuan language is not suitable for complicated conversation. Same way all those ukrainian, belarussian, tatar, latvian, estonian and so on languages are just bad for usage in modern world.

[Bezprym]

That is a fact.

A fact because you say so?

[glass]

A fact because you say so?
Everywhere in the world, people choose more developed language over some exotic 'native' languages. That is fact. In Belarus authorities do not impose exotic language, so people prefer russian language because they are more comfortable with it.

[Rugevit]

A fact because you say so?

Russification is the reason Ukrainians and Belarusians and many other ethnicities speak in Russian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

[Rugevit]

repeat.

[Bezprym]

That is fact.

Again. A fact because you say so? You seem to know a lot of facts without any scientific proofs. "That is fact".

[Maximilian]

Anecdotal, but my grandmother speaks Belarusian, Russian, Polish, German, and English. My mother and her siblings speak English, Russian and German.

[Bezprym]

Russification is the reason Ukrainians and Belarusians and many other ethnicities speak in Russian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

"language is a tool, tools called ukrainian, belarussian, mordvin etc languages are simply bad. IT has nothing to do with propagnda. <- That is a fact. -> People choose to use better language."

I was refering to "that fact". Not to a question why Belarusians and Ukrainians speak Russian.
Post scriptum - I am Polish, I know what russification is, don't worry.

[glass]

How many times have you been called a retard on this forum by different members?
Retards, such as you, tend to blame other people for stupidity.

Again. A fact because you say so? You seem to know a lot of facts without any scientific proofs. "That is fact".
Well since you belong to ethnicity stereotyped for special intellect capabilities, i will answear you again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ireland
94% can speak english, 36% can speak irish. But since UK is not Mordor. Clowns do not bitch about irish language.:rolleyes:

[Rugevit]

Again. A fact because you say so? You seem to know a lot of facts without any scientific proofs. "That is fact".

Russification began after partition of Polish Lithuanian commwealth.


One example of 19th century Russification was the replacement of the Ukrainian, Polish, Lithuanian, and Belarusian languages by Russian in those areas, which were annexed by the Russian Empire after the Partitions of Poland (1772–1795) and the Congress of Vienna (1815). Russification intensified after the November Uprising of 1831, and in particular after the January Uprising of 1863.[9] In 1864, the Polish and Belarusian languages were banned in public places; in the 1880s, Polish was banned in schools and on school grounds and offices of Congress Poland. Research and teaching of the Polish language, history or of Catholicism were forbidden. Illiteracy rose as Poles refused to learn Russian. Students were beaten for resisting Russification.[10] A Polish underground education network was formed, including the famous Flying University. According to Russian estimates, by 1901 one-third of the inhabitants in the Congress Kingdom was involved in clandestine education based on Polish literature.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

[Rugevit]

Retards, such as you, tend to blame other people for stupidity.

I am not blaming stupid people for being that way. I am stating the obvious fact, which has been re-iterated countless number of times by different forum members.

[Jehan]

language is a tool, tools called ukrainian, belarussian, mordvin etc languages are simply bad. IT has nothing to do with propagnda. That is a fact. People choose to use better language. Villager whose vocubalary containts 100-150 words can be perfectly fine with ukrainian, belarussian or papuan language. If your life slightly more complicated, you would need slightly more complicated language. Thus even russophobic ukrainians speak russian language in private dicussions, chechen tell how they hate russians in russian language as well. All those muslims from former SU in ISIL communicate with each other in russian. And so on.
Lukashenko is just less retarded than those ukro-patriots. He is not playing anti-russian card either. so there is no reason to 'develop' belarussian language. This forum can be english pseaking, but can not be papuan speaking, because papuan language is not suitable for complicated conversation. Same way all those ukrainian, belarussian, tatar, latvian, estonian and so on languages are just bad for usage in modern world.

Again Belarussian isn't a dialect, it's a rich language with far more than 100/150 words as you try to make people beleive. Facts are books are written in belarussian language.
Why many belarussians speak russians? Because of russification like other members said. Russian was a vernaculare language, it doesn't imply other languages doesn't have enought vocabulary or a complex grammar.

[Methmatician]

Again Belarussian isn't a dialect, it's a rich language with far more than 100/150 words as you try to make people beleive. Facts are books are written in belarussian language.
The National Academy of Sciences of Belarus publish journals in English, Russian, and Belarusian so Belarusian does seem to have the vocabulary for science.

[Jehan]

Well since you belong to ethnicity stereotyped for special intellect capabilities, i will answear you again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ireland
94% can speak english, 36% can speak irish. But since UK is not Mordor. Clowns do not bitch about irish language.:rolleyes:

So you imply irish language is also not a true language?

Sad for you, it's one of the oldest literature in Europe.
One of the reason Irish declined is Irish school have been closed. Education was only in English. You know, that's exactly what Ukrainian governement tried to do with russian school and you called them nazi for it.

[Rugevit]

Again Belarussian isn't a dialect, it's a rich language with far more than 100/150 words as you try to make people beleive. Facts are books are written in belarussian language.
Why many belarussians speak russians? Because of russification like other members said. Russian was a vernaculare language, it doesn't imply other languages doesn't have enought vocabulary or a complex grammar.

That's correct.

---

Ukrainians kept the language better for a couple of reasons. Although, Ukrainians also have language issues to this day.

Ukrainian ethnicity is much larger, therefore less prone to russification
Western regions of Ukraine were under Austro-Hungarian empire rule not subjected to russification until 1940s. This was the region that have been speaking Ukrainian at which other regions looked upon language issues.
Ukraine enforced stricter policies of using Ukrainian language at state level supporting Ukrainian , after the collapse of USSR, while Lukashenka's government did not.

[Bezprym]

Russification began after partition of Polish Lithuanian commwealth.

(...)

As I have stated already, I know exactly what russification is, and you don't have to explain it to me. May I ask you, why you do this anyway? It is like saying to me, that capital city of Poland is Warsaw and showing me the city on a map, because I am so stupid that I don't know anything about my country.

Here you have a scene, how Poles acted against russification:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3efQ8yXmFg

I am not even going to respond to Glasses, as he either do not understand basic English, or his brain sleeps at the moment. Or both. I am not mother Teresa, so I will not teach him, that when someone is asked a question "Where is Baltic Sea?", it is wrong to answer "Columbus arrived in America in 1492".

[Dr. Klaus Klausofsten]

Who cares? :lightbul:

[ЛыSSый]

It's the opposite. Lukashenko support the russification of the country, probably because it allow a dictator like him to stay in power in the russian way of thinking. He once said:

:picard1: Lukashenko just not preventing to creeping (gradual?) assimilation weak local subculture by main powerful culture space. Let me repeat: in my country was tte same situation, goverment decided it in way to set our subculture in opposite to main culture. as conquence now we have rapidly progressive degradation, foolish and internal culture (or unculture?) conflict. As possible solution some power is trying now set polish language as culture base - let me do forecast - it will unsucsessful way, cause it was some hundrieds ago with bad result.

[Rugevit]

The National Academy of Sciences of Belarus publish journals in English, Russian, and Belarusian so Belarusian does seem to have the vocabulary for science.

There is nothing wrong with the language in using at academic level in any discipline. If there is no scientific term, then it can be introduced. Good examples are IT related terms that entered many languages recently mostly via English. The main issue was russification , which was spread from top to bottom and it continues to be that way under Lukashenka's government.

[Rugevit]

:picard1: Lukashenko just not preventing to creeping (gradual?) assimilation weak local subculture by main powerful culture space. Let me repeat: in my country was tte same situation, goverment decided it in way to set our subculture in opposite to main culture. as conquence now we have rapidly progressive degradation, foolish and internal culture (or unculture?) conflict. As possible solution some power is trying now set polish language as culture base - let me do forecast - it will unsucsessful way, cause it wassome hundrieds ago with bad result.

I think the main problem in Ukraine was lower standards of living and corruption. And I am not saying there were no mistakes made as far as enforcing one language.

[blizzard]

Again Belarussian isn't a dialect, it's a rich language with far more than 100/150 words as you try to make people beleive. Facts are books are written in belarussian language.
Why many belarussians speak russians? Because of russification like other members said. Russian was a vernaculare language, it doesn't imply other languages doesn't have enought vocabulary or a complex grammar.
Russification or not, modern Belarus is about 85% speak Russian, they just prefer to speak it to the point of all specific untranslatable Russian idiomes. It is almost impossible to distinguish russian-speaking Belarussian from russian IRL. Belarussians also do not tend to be so crazy pseudo-patriots as western Ukrainians. So face it - they are not interested in all that propaganda that they should speak Belarussian :D

[Rugevit]

As I have stated already, I know exactly what russification is, and you don't have to explain it to me. May I ask you, why you do this anyway? It is like saying to me, that capital city of Poland is Warsaw and showing me the city on a map, because I am so stupid that I don't know anything about my country.

Here you have a scene, how Poles acted against russification:

I am not even going to respond to Glasses, as he either do not understand basic English, or his brain sleeps at the moment. Or both. I am not mother Teresa, so I will not teach him, that when someone is asked a question "Where is Baltic Sea?", it is wrong to answer "Columbus arrived in America in 1492".

In replying to you I am not just addressing to mean that you don't know about russification. I am keeping up the discussion for other readers who may not know about the situation.

[Rugevit]

Russification or not, modern Belarus is about 85% speak Russian, they just prefer to speak it to the point of all specific untranslatable Russian idiomes. It is almost impossible to distinguish russian-speaking Belarussian from russian IRL. Belarussians also do not tend to be so crazy pseudo-patriots as western Ukrainians. So face it - they are not interested in all that propaganda that they should speak Belarussian :D

While more than 60% of people state their native language is Belarusian and 84% identify themsleves as Belarusians. That's an exaggeration to say it's impossible to distiniguish russian-speaking Belarusian from Russian as Belarusians pronounce the words differently and it's usually possible to recognise a person from Belarus speaking Russian. As it is also possible to recognise a Ukrainian or Russian from Ukraine speaking in Russian.

[blizzard]

Impossible? That's exaggeration, because Belarusians pronounce the words differently and it's usually possible to recognise a person from Belarus speaking Russian. As it is also possible to recognise a Ukrainian or Russian from Ukraine speaking in Russian
Have you seen real Belarusians? If they speak Russian you won't notice big difference as it happens with Ukrainians.

That articles in OP just speculative material with comparison between German and Polish.

[Basil]

Belarusian and Ukrainian can be scientific languages as well as Mordvin and others. But they need significant lexical development. The question is: why to bother? Many inexistent terms would be anyway more likely borrowed from Russian. Local nationalists are of course very enthusiastic about further distinguishing themselves from imperialistic Russians but the scientific community isn't so keen about the changes. You can't force physicist or chemist to write all of a sudden in a language that has no history of scientific workings in a respective field. The scientific community isn't that nationalist as well to emphasize the language problem.

Anyway, it's kind of marginal problem since Belarusians don't speak their language even in their everyday life. Belarusian language can reinstate itself as a main tool of communication but it's a matter of time and patience. Many mentioned Russification in the thread but be aware that the opposite process in a country where a majority today almost exclusively speaks Russian is Belarusification and don't forget the lesson of Ukraine where the forced Ukrainization sparked the foreseeable backlash in some regions. It's a people's choice after all which language they prefer to speak.

[Bezprym]

In replying to you I am not just addressing to mean that you don't know about russification. I am keeping up the discussion for other readers who may not know about the situation.

Ah, ok. Then I apologize for misunderstanding. ;)

PS. I know Belarusians, and some of them speak Belarusian every day. Or have spoken while were in Belarus.

[Rugevit]

Have you seen real Belarusians? If they speak Russian you won't notice big difference as it happens with Ukrainians.

That articles in OP just speculative material with comparison between German and Polish.

I have seen real Belarusians. ;) Both Belarusians and Ukrainians pronounce the words differently as they speak in Russian. Typically harder pronunciation of 'r', fricative 'g' , as well as different pronunciation of 'sh' and many other sounds for the Belarusians. If you don't know this, then you haven't been exposed to Belarusians' speech enough.

[Rugevit]

Belarusian and Ukrainian can be scientific languages as well as Mordvin and others. But they need significant lexical development. The question is: why to bother? Many inexistent terms would be anyway more likely borrowed from Russian. Local nationalists are of course very enthusiastic about further distinguishing themselves from imperialistic Russians but the scientific community isn't so keen about the changes. You can't force physicist or chemist to write all of a sudden in a language that has no history of scientific workings in a respective field. The scientific community isn't that nationalist as well to emphasize the language problem.

It's a myth that there is lack of scientific terms in Ukrainian and Belarusian. If it was the issue it would have been discussed by the linguists in Ukraine or Belarus. In many languages, most scientific terms come from Greek or Latin anyway.

[glass]

So you imply irish language is also not a true language?

I never stated that belarussian is false language. Belarussian just like irish, is a very weak language. It can not compete with russian or english respectively.
Belarussians and irish do not speak native language and speak language of brutal occupants for absoultely same reasons.
Stronger cultures and languages erase and replace weaker ones. The bigger gap, the faster process. This is absolutely natural process. Lukashenko is doing nothing so stronger russian dominates everything but countryside. In Ukraine authorities impose ukrainian, so they have bilingual country, but still russian dominates everything that is not compulsory ukrainian.
Stronger language means larger/bigger amount of information avaiable in this language and number of native speakers.

[solaris]

can someone give a few examples to what extent both languages differ from each other?

[Basil]

It's a myth that there is lack of scientific terms in Ukrainian and Belarusian. If it was the issue it would have been discussed by the linguists in Ukraine or Belarus. In many languages, most scientific terms come from Greek or Latin anyway.
Maybe it's a myth. However, as it was noted that The National Academy of Sciences of Belarus publishes journals in Belarusian, I gave a look at those journals and seems only those in humanities contain articles in Belarusian.

[Rugevit]

Maybe it's a myth. However, as it was noted that The National Academy of Sciences of Belarus publishes journals in Belarusian, I gave a look at those journals and seems only those in humanities contain articles in Belarusian.

There is accepted practice of publishing papers related to humanities in Belarusian, which has nothing to do with the lack of scientific terms in the Belarusian language. you can check the dictionaries for any scientific term.

[Dandelion]

I think a more 'real' example would be Norwegians speaking Danish. If Norwegians didn't have any nationalist sentiment they would probably be Danes speaking Danish now.

Yeah, Norwegian and Swedish have a high degree of mutual intelligibility, Norwegian and Danish far less. Scandinavians speak different languages due to their history and provincialism. Their linguistic situation didn't develop like it for instance has in Germany.

[Hydromorphone]

I never stated that belarussian is false language. Belarussian just like irish, is a very weak language. It can not compete with russian or english respectively.
Belarussians and irish do not speak native language and speak language of brutal occupants for absoultely same reasons.
Stronger cultures and languages erase and replace weaker ones. The bigger gap, the faster process. This is absolutely natural process. Lukashenko is doing nothing so stronger russian dominates everything but countryside. In Ukraine authorities impose ukrainian, so they have bilingual country, but still russian dominates everything that is not compulsory ukrainian.
Stronger language means larger/bigger amount of information avaiable in this language and number of native speakers.

I don't know about Belarusian (as I don't know the history of it), but what you've said is absolutely and categorically untrue for Irish.

[solaris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wAoGzexufo

[Sally the first]

it's great they're claiming their language but I don''t think they would go so far under Lukashenko's authority

[Basil]

There is accepted practice of publishing papers related to humanities in Belarusian, which has nothing to do with the lack of scientific terms in the Belarusian language. you can check the dictionaries for any scientific term.
Ok. Modern science is pretty much internationalized and is done in a few languages worldwide, mostly in English. Science in post-Soviet countries is naturally done in Russian and Russian would probably prevail in scientific papers even if Belarusian were daily spoken. As I said, it's not a problem of the first importance for the usage of Belarusian.

[Nurzat]

it's not language that matters, but attractiveness

[Bezprym]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wAoGzexufo

:pinklove: :pinklove: :pinklove:

[Rugevit]

Ok. Modern science is pretty much internationalized and is done in a few languages worldwide, mostly in English. Science in post-Soviet countries is naturally done in Russian and Russian would probably prevail in scientific papers even if Belarusian were daily spoken. As I said, it's not a problem of the first importance for the usage of Belarusian.

That's correct.

Most universities in Belarus were opened in the last 100 years. During that time everything was in Russian in all of USSR except for humanitarian disciplines - language, literature, ethnography etc. There was a university in Vilnius in the 19th century that was closed by Tsarist authorities after upraising of 1831. After the fall of USSR Ukraine enforced Ukrainian language in academia, while Belarusian remained to be where it was during Soviet era for the most part by Lukashenko government.

[blizzard]

I have seen real Belarusians. ;) Both Belarusians and Ukrainians pronounce the words differently as they speak in Russian. Typically harder pronunciation of 'r', fricative 'g' , as well as different pronunciation of 'sh' and many other sounds for the Belarusians. If you don't know this, then you haven't been exposed to Belarusians' speech enough.
I talked only with thiose who Russian speakers, haven't seen the difference and knew they are from Belarus only after they told me. Lukashenko speaks with pronounce, but he is also with Ukrainian roots.

Northern Russians often pronounce more long 'O' instead 'A', but it doesn't make them a different nation.

[blizzard]

it's great they're claiming their language but I don''t think they would go so far under Lukashenko's authority
Where have you heard they claiming? Because Polish linguist says so?

[Rugevit]

I talked only with thiose who Russian speakers, haven't seen the difference and knew they are from Belarus only after they told me. Lukashenko speaks with pronounce, but he is also with Ukrainian roots.

Northern Russians often pronounce more long 'O' instead 'A', but it doesn't make them a different nation.

Dude! I don't need to listen to Lukashenko to hear the differences. A Belarusian more often than not can recognise another Belarusian while in Russia or anywhere outside of Belarus due to differences in pronunciation while speaking in Russian. The same goes for Ukrainians. The fact that Belarusians or Ukrainians speak in Russian does not make the "same nation with Russia". Nation is a political construct, while ethnicity is a social one. Belarusians identify themselves as Belarusian despite speaking in Russian.

[ЛыSSый]

I think the main problem in Ukraine was lower standards of living and corruption. are you able to thinking? I'm shocked. Ля, ну шо ж ты такое тупое? аж стыдно тут за тебя. Честно скажи: ты в змагары подался потому шо нормальные тя на хуй посылали?


In the end of 80x years - beginning of 90x years my native hohlostan had much more higher standarts than belarus. Till the middle of 90x, when hohlostanian goverment (ukrainian in that time) decided to build market economic with all side-effects, like total and periodical plundering and repartitions of property till time of temporary peace between oligarch clanes (look on usa, south korea as examples). In belarus Lukashenko's goverment stopped all this rising and decided to built slightly corrected socialism like in western europe.

And our present low standarts aren't a reason, it's a conquense.

[ЛыSSый]

waana fuck all this tripple


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wAoGzexufo

[CordedWhelp]

My great grand mother was born near Brest Litovsk in the late 19th century, she considered herself Russian and only spoke Russian but didn't have a Russian family name (I guess it could have been a Belarussian name).
I don't have answer for this, perhaps because it was a very small ethnicity close to a bigger and quite close other they lost their language and a part of their culture.

Similar story here...my g grandfather was born in or real near Krivichi in Belarus, but had a Polish surname And (to make matters more confusing) considered himself Russian before anything else.

[Rugevit]

are you able to thinking? I'm shocked. Ля, ну шо ж ты такое тупое? аж стыдно тут за тебя. Честно скажи: ты в змагары подался потому шо нормальные тя на хуй посылали?

змагар - это так одинoкая извилина у тебя работает? также давно хотел сказать, что ты быдловатый персонаж.



In the end of 80x years - beginning of 90x years my native hohlostan had much more higher standarts than belarus. Till the middle of 90x, when hohlostanian goverment (ukrainian in that time) decided to build market economic with all side-effects, like total and periodical plundering and repartitions of property till time of temporary peace between oligarch clanes (look on usa, south korea as examples). In belarus Lukashenko's goverment stopped all this rising and decided to built slightly corrected socialism like in western europe.

I was talking about the last 25 years if you didn't notice. It's highly unlikely the living standards were higher during Soviet times in Ukraine either giving Belarus was the industrial republic producing machineries and electronics for Soviet market and one of the few republics that was not receiving money from central government. Don't believe the nonsense how wealthy and prosperous Ukraine during Soviet times in comparison to other republics. Search for the information.

[Sanyok]

Rubbish.
It was not part of the Russian ethnicity 100 years ago and it was never part of the Russian ethnicity. There were 3 invented ethnicities by Tsarists after partition of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (1795): Great Russians (Velikorossy), Small Russians (Malorossy, later Ukrainians) and Belarusians.
Malorossy were known much before 1795.
Anyway, I agree with you, that "there were 3 invented ethnicities". And all these 3 ethnicities: Great Russians, Small Russians and White Russians, together form Russian nation.


Two revolutions in the 18 th centuries on the territories of Belarus against Tsarist rule and forced of conversion of Greek Catholic to Orthodoxy of the population and banning of schools in native language for Ukrainians, Belarusians and Lithuanians. One cannot invent the language.
At first part of people of Belarus were forcely switched to Greek Catholicism. Even after 500 years of being under Catholic rule and implanting, mostly they still were Orthodox. And after hard convertization to Greek-Catholicism it quickly dissapeared after modern Belarus became part of Russian Empire.
The two "revolutions" on the territory of actual Belarus in XIX century were organized by pro-Polish remaining aristocracy, had no popular approval and naturaly were unsuccessfulls.


Russification began after partition of Polish Lithuanian commwealth.
One example of 19th century Russification was the replacement of the Ukrainian, Polish, Lithuanian, and Belarusian languages by Russian in those areas, which were annexed by the Russian Empire after the Partitions of Poland (1772–1795) and the Congress of Vienna (1815). Russification intensified after the November Uprising of 1831, and in particular after the January Uprising of 1863.[9] In 1864, the Polish and Belarusian languages were banned in public places; in the 1880s, Polish was banned in schools and on school grounds and offices of Congress Poland. Research and teaching of the Polish language, history or of Catholicism were forbidden. Illiteracy rose as Poles refused to learn Russian. Students were beaten for resisting Russification.[10] A Polish underground education network was formed, including the famous Flying University. According to Russian estimates, by 1901 one-third of the inhabitants in the Congress Kingdom was involved in clandestine education based on Polish literature.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

The polish resistance to the same process of "russification" just confirms that Poles were a separate nation, but White Russians were not.

And don't tell me about "developed Ukranian language 100 years ago".
The exaple of poem on the ukrainian 10-hrivnya banknote is written in a language, as "far" to Ukrainian as to Russian.
http://i.piccy.info/i9/323dc17cf96b0c0578379ccfa7653037/1438869113/35987/641046/maxresdefault_500.jpg (http://piccy.info/view3/8573737/24700bbc9df31c3589755a60a72db0c0/)http://i.piccy.info/a3/2015-08-06-13-51/i9-8573737/500x281-r/i.gif (http://i.piccy.info/a3c/2015-08-06-13-51/i9-8573737/500x281-r)

More detally here:
http://i.piccy.info/i9/e316aaccdcc442816056ce0471d55956/1438869148/161756/641046/10_rk.jpg (http://piccy.info/view3/8573741/9a395861cd3e9b23c7bff3e63d0ca505/)http://i.piccy.info/a3/2015-08-06-13-52/i9-8573741/631x409-r/i.gif (http://i.piccy.info/a3c/2015-08-06-13-52/i9-8573741/631x409-r)

[Rugevit]

Malorossy were known much before 1795.
Anyway, I agree with you, that "there were 3 invented ethnicities". And all these 3 ethnicities: Great Russians, Small Russians and White Russians, together form Russian nation.

A single Russian nation concept was the invention during Tsarist rule picked up by the Soviets as a mean of Russification. That's the reason for 3 new ethnicities invention after partition of Polish-Lithanian commonwealth - in order to russify people of Ukraine and Belarus.

Before 1795 Belarus and much of Ukraine was in Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. Before Lublin Union Belarus was in GDL, since 1250. Even before that time different Slavic tribes lived on territories of modern day Belarus, Ukraine and Russia in ancient times. Ethnogenesis of 3 eastern Slavic nations occurred in different states under different circumstances. Ancestors of Belarus fought so many wars against ancestors of Russians never considering Muscovites as brotherly peoples. Russians of Ukraine , Russian volunteers and Ukrainians are at war currently in eastern Ukraine. What one Russian nation are you talking about?



At first part of people of Belarus were forcely switched to Greek Catholicism. Even after 500 years of being under Catholic rule and implanting, mostly they still were Orthodox. And after hard convertization to Greek-Catholicism it quickly dissapeared after modern Belarus became part of Russian Empire.
The two "revolutions" on the territory of actual Belarus in XIX century were organized by pro-Polish remaining aristocracy, had no popular approval and naturaly were unsuccessfulls. The polish resistance to the same process of "russification" just confirms that Poles were a separate nation, but White Russians were not.

There was no forced conversion of common folks into Greek Catholicism. There was an agreement in Brest and Greek Catholicism was supported and introduced by nobility over common folks. For common folks it did not mean a thing ас similar traditions were observed. Kalinovski revolutionary was Belarusian, as so many other revolutionaries. They were Poles or Lithuanians as part of the Russian propaganda, who blamed Catholic Poles and Lithuanians. In addition, Belarusian ancestors together with ancestors of Poles fought the Russians during Napoleonic war followed by 2 revolutions. If Belarusians were not against the Russians, their schools and books would not have been banned by Tsarist authority.





And don't tell me about "developed Ukranian language 100 years ago".


The 'development' as you describe in the context of linguistics does not make much sense. What do you mean by un-developed Ukrainian language 100 years ago? Literary language was not codified?

[Bezprym]

Simargl, you really believe that you'll achieve something? Isn't it better to let the Russians live in their fairy tale?

[Marusya]

змагар - это так одинoкая извилина у тебя работает? также давно хотел сказать, что ты быдловатый персонаж.



I was talking about the last 25 years if you didn't notice. It's highly unlikely the living standards were higher during Soviet times in Ukraine either giving Belarus was the industrial republic producing machineries and electronics for Soviet market and one of the few republics that was not receiving money from central government. Don't believe the nonsense how wealthy and prosperous Ukraine during Soviet times in comparison to other republics. Search for the information.

My aunt visited relatives in Ukraine twice during Soviet era (1970s/1980s). She reported that it was quite poor. No shopping malls. No choice when it came to purchasing consumer goods. People didn't have washers/dryers, air conditioning/heating systems, or modern appliances. Very backward. Forget about modern bathroom fixtures or continuous hot water. Plus as an added insult, the authorities took her camera at the Kiev airport.

[Rugevit]

My aunt visited relatives in Ukraine twice during Soviet era (1970s/1980s). She reported that it was quite poor. No shopping malls. No choice when it came to purchasing consumer goods. People didn't have washers/dryers, air conditioning/heating systems, or modern appliances. Very backward. Forget about modern bathroom fixtures or continuous hot water. Plus as an added insult, the authorities took her camera at the Kiev airport.

There is much propaganda among so-called 'Sovoks' about prosperous Ukraine during Soviet times, while poverty and corruption in Ukraine since independence. So as to convince Ukrainians that their independence and European orientation is bad for them.

[Rugevit]

Simargl, you really believe that you'll achieve something? Isn't it better to let the Russians live in their fairy tale?

Let them live in their fairy tales elsewhere. Not on the Belarusian section of the forum.

[Bezprym]

Let them live in their fairy tales elsewhere. Not on the Belarusian section of the forum.

True. But you will not convince them.

First, there was an argument about Belarusian language, now I see suggestions, that they are actually Russians. What a sad bullshit.

[Rugevit]

True. But you will not convince them.

First, there was an argument about Belarusian language, now I see suggestions, that they are actually Russians. What a sad bullshit.

What the Russians write in this topic is mostly re-iterations of Russian propaganda from the past and present. See it as an opportunity to witness backward mentality of Russian politicians stuck in the 18th century believing the only way to exert their political influence is through cultural assimilation of other peoples.

[Basil]

There is much propaganda among so-called 'Sovoks' about prosperous Ukraine during Soviet times, while poverty and corruption in Ukraine since independence. So as to convince Ukrainians that their independence and European orientation is bad for them.

Why do you think it's a propaganda? Their GDP per capita (PPP) is still below the level of 1990 and, in fact, has never exceeded it for the last 25 years.
[http://i59.tinypic.com/14bl0t1.jpg
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-per-capita-ppp

Another fact: HDI in 1990 0,705
HDI in 2013 0,734
Not much of a progress either.

[Rugevit]

Why do you think it's a propaganda? Their GDP per capita (PPP) is still below the level of 1990 and, in fact, has never exceeded it for the last 25 years.
[http://i59.tinypic.com/14bl0t1.jpg
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-per-capita-ppp

Another fact: HDI in 1990 0,705
HDI in 2013 0,734
Not much of a progress either.

Okay. But the level of exaggeration often is beyond reasonable logic. As if it was a paradise back then and now there's unbearable poverty.

[ЛыSSый]

змагар - это так одинoкая извилина у тебя работает? также давно хотел сказать, что ты быдловатый персонаж. "змагар" - это ты о себе сам так сказал. А теперь обидки корчишь мол тебя твоей же меркой меряют. Пиздец ты клоун.

также давно хотел сказать, что ты быдловатый персонаж. ооо, а шо ты раньше мялся шо целочка?
вот если бы ты действительно был не быдлом, а чуть повыше, данное предложение выглядело примерно так: "уважаемый, у меня уже давно сложилось мнение, что Ваш общеобразовательный и культурный уровень соответствует выпускнику районного пту". в ответ позволю себе опуститься до твоего уровня и сказать: "пшёл нахуй, чепушила недоученная, тебе до моего уровня ещё одного универа не хватает".



I was talking about the last 25 years if you didn't notice. It's highly unlikely the living standards were higher during Soviet times in Ukraine either giving Belarus was the industrial republic producing machineries and electronics for Soviet market and one of the few republics that was not receiving money from central government. Don't believe the nonsense how wealthy and prosperous Ukraine during Soviet times in comparison to other republics. Search for the information. UkrSSR made the same and many other goods.
Fisrt link with comparison (http://kanaev55.livejournal.com/364014.html), both republic were equal, but from personal dialogs some belaruses sayd me, that in ukraine life was better, maybe because non-material features (warmer climat, menthalitet or other things, idk).

[ЛыSSый]

Why do you think it's a propaganda? Their GDP per capita (PPP) is still below the level of 1990 and, in fact, has never exceeded it for the last 25 years.
[http://i59.tinypic.com/14bl0t1.jpg
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-per-capita-ppp

Another fact: HDI in 1990 0,705
HDI in 2013 0,734
Not much of a progress either.
it's nothing, just nubers about nothing. now middle salary here is about 100-150$, it's level about 2000-2003 without inflation.
та до пизды все эти гдп пер капита и прочее - они дохуя чего не учитывают и не показывают.

[Ultra]

Because most of the people in Belarus are ethnic Russians, basically. Just because the land there was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and PLC for some time doesn't make it any less Russian. A whole lot of present-day Russia was also part of GDL, but nobody today would put any doubt in the claims of these lands or the people living there being Russians.

[Sanyok]

One can imagine fairy-tails, but the fact is that both forum participants nowadays living in the West whhich have ancestors from Belarus, said that the ancestors had russian self-conscience.
Other fact is that population being Russians naturaly didn't resist to so-called "Russification", contrary to really non-russian Poles.
Third fact, is that nowadays Belarussian language is rarely spoken. And as far as I know, the village-dwellers who think they speak Belarus, they speak not correct Belarussian. The correct Belarussian language is a thing known by a mere percent of belarussian people.

Fourth: None of belarussians I've ever known (about dozen) used their belarussian name. These Aliaksandr, Uladzimir, Tatsiana (instead of Aleksandr, Vladimir, Tatyana) were offensive to them.
Fifth: One my friend said that they had very professional teacher of belarussian language at school. She spoke only belarussian during the lessons. But as soon as the lesson ended she switched to russian.
Sixth: (I think it's offensive and incorrect, but it was a real case which surprised nobody). In college this my friend had a professor of belarussian language. He tried to use the belarussian everywhere. So, once he wrote a statement to director (about his personal case, maybe regarding the holidays or any changings in work hours, it's not important for the case). And the secretary didn't accept this statement written in belarussian. After week-long scandale they finally accepted this statement. (This case for you to understand, how "widely" used the belarussian is in modern Belarus)
Very few people use it to speak, but even less, read and write in it.
Seventh: This my friend said that they sometimes combined with friends speak exclusively belarussian. But this lasted not more then one day, because knowing russian, the belarussian sounds too funny to those who know russian. And they were laughing instead of conversating.
These are impressions of belarussians which studied already in independent Belarus, and live in West Belarus towns as Baranovichi, Brest, Lida.

As already written here, the authorities of Belarus don't force the people to use the belarussian language. While also they are taking some efforts the preserve it. To speak russian for belarussia is as natural as to low-land scots speak english.

If not bolshevics, which formed Belarussian SSR, the belarussians would remained another russian subethnos as Cossacks or Siberiaks are, IMO.

[Rugevit]

One can imagine fairy-tails, but the fact is that both forum participants nowadays living in the West whhich have ancestors from Belarus, said that the ancestors had russian self-conscience.
Other fact is that population being Russians naturaly didn't resist to so-called "Russification", contrary to really non-russian Poles.
Third fact, is that nowadays Belarussian language is rarely spoken. And as far as I know, the village-dwellers who think they speak Belarus, they speak not correct Belarussian. The correct Belarussian language is a thing known by a mere percent of belarussian people.

Fourth: None of belarussians I've ever known (about dozen) used their belarussian name. These Aliaksandr, Uladzimir, Tatsiana (instead of Aleksandr, Vladimir, Tatyana) were offensive to them.
Fifth: One my friend said that they had very professional teacher of belarussian language at school. She spoke only belarussian during the lessons. But as soon as the lesson ended she switched to russian.
Sixth: (I think it's offensive and incorrect, but it was a real case which surprised nobody). In college this my friend had a professor of belarussian language. He tried to use the belarussian everywhere. So, once he wrote a statement to director (about his personal case, maybe regarding the holidays or any changings in work hours, it's not important for the case). And the secretary didn't accept this statement written in belarussian. After week-long scandale they finally accepted this statement. (This case for you to understand, how "widely" used the belarussian is in modern Belarus)
Very few people use it to speak, but even less, read and write in it.
Seventh: This my friend said that they sometimes combined with friends speak exclusively belarussian. But this lasted not more then one day, because knowing russian, the belarussian sounds too funny to those who know russian. And they were laughing instead of conversating.
These are impressions of belarussians which studied already in independent Belarus, and live in West Belarus towns as Baranovichi, Brest, Lida.

As already written here, the authorities of Belarus don't force the people to use the belarussian language. While also they are taking some efforts the preserve it. To speak russian for belarussia is as natural as to low-land scots speak english.

If not bolshevics, which formed Belarussian SSR, the belarussians would remained another russian subethnos as Cossacks or Siberiaks are, IMO.

Russian is widely spoken in Belarus due to russification policies, which is true. But Russian is also widely spoken in much of Ukraine (eastern, southern and central) to this day for the same reason. Circumstances are different in western Ukraine because it wasn't subjected to russification for a long time as it was part of Austro-Hungary . Belarusian People's Republic was formed after the WWI and the Bolsheviks had nothing to do with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_People%27s_Republic

Belarusians don't consider Russian and never have considered Russians the brotherly nation except possibly by some commies or old timers brought up during Soviet era. Everything else about Belarus you wrote is far from reality. Just fairy tales as it was mentioned already.

[Basil]

Belarusians don't consider Russian and never have considered Russians the brotherly nation except possibly by some commies or old timers brought up during Soviet era.
You are a well-educated guy which makes you a good promoter of Belarusian culture and, of course, nationalism. But this sounds ridiculous. This sentence is probably an essence of today's Ukrainian and Belarusian nationalisms: denying all possible connections with Russia. Luckily, people like you are a minority in Belarus and I hope they will never be in power.

[Rugevit]

You are a well-educated guy which makes you a good promoter of Belarusian culture and, of course, nationalism. But this sounds ridiculous. This sentence is probably an essence of today's Ukrainian and Belarusian nationalisms: denying all possible connections with Russia. Luckily, people like you are a minority in Belarus and I hope they will never be in power.

It has nothing to do with promotion of nationalism. I am speaking about historic facts and I am speaking about general attitudes of moder-day Belarusians. I am a Belarusian. I am a north-eastern Belarusian having lived not far from the the Russian borders and having travelled throughout Belarus. I know the attitudes of people. Russia is not a foreign country as say a western European country but it's not a brotherly nation. It has never been considered as such irrespective what president Lukashenko says each time he needs cheap crude oil from Russia or sell something on the Russian market. At the same time a lot of Russians have a little knowledge about Belarus unable to name a Belarusian city other than Minsk believing what politicians say to them. That does not mean Belarusians are hostile towards the Russians or any other ethnicity be they Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians or Ukrainians. In general , people of Belarus are friendly to their neighbours and all visitors.

[Marusya]

Russian is widely spoken in Belarus due to russification policies, which is true. But Russian is also widely spoken in much of Ukraine (eastern, southern and central) to this day for the same reason. Circumstances are different in western Ukraine because it wasn't subjected to russification for a long time as it was part of Austro-Hungary . Belarusian People's Republic was formed after the WWI and the Bolsheviks had nothing to do with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_People%27s_Republic

Belarusians don't consider Russian and never have considered Russians the brotherly nation except possibly by some commies or old timers brought up during Soviet era. Everything else about Belarus you wrote is far from reality. Just fairy tales as it was mentioned already.

I do want to point out that Volhynia (Northwestern Ukraine) was under Russian Rule after the Polish Partitions. My grandfather, who lived with us when I was a child, was born in Volhynia, Russian Empire. He was VERY Russified. He spoke Ukrainian as primary language but never referred to himself as Ukrainian, only Russian. He even directly told me he was from "Little Russia." He attended Russian Orthodox Church and sang in the choir. He also served in the Russian Imperial Army. I know he also spoke Russian and Polish. He only knew how to read/write (minimally) in Russian, though. Education was not compulsory in the Russian Empire, which accounts for the high illiteracy during that period.

[Sanyok]

Russian is widely spoken in Belarus due to russification policies, which is true. But Russian is also widely spoken in much of Ukraine (eastern, southern and central) to this day for the same reason. Circumstances are different in western Ukraine because it wasn't subjected to russification for a long time as it was part of Austro-Hungary .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_People%27s_Republic

Belarusians don't consider Russian and never have considered Russians the brotherly nation except possibly by some commies or old timers brought up during Soviet era. Everything else about Belarus you wrote is far from reality. Just fairy tales as it was mentioned already.

OK. The two evidencies from forum participants are fairy-tail.
My belarussian collegues are fairy-tail.
Just you tell the true. :hail: I believe you.:baby2000:


Belarusian People's Republic was formed after the WWI and the Bolsheviks had nothing to do with it.
In the Russian's Civil's War caos appeared dozens of new "independent" countries, Far-East Republic, Siberian Republic, Don-Kuban Republic, which if they proclaimed independence from Russia you would applauded for. Even my small town proclaimed an independent "Sochi Republic" during this caos.

The Belarus were created by bolsheviks from Kremlin, they determined their boundaries (and changed several times by their wishes). If the bolshevicks didn't wanted to represent a Revolution as International, they could create ordinary regions instead of Belorussian SSR. It was decided in Moscow, not in Belarus, the republican status of this territory. (Yet, it was not baseless, but that time nobody believed it could separate)

You call us to submit to the implanted the prinsiple: "Divide and Rule", while we insistently refuse. That is the matter.

[Rugevit]

I do want to point out that Volhynia (Northwestern Ukraine) was under Russian Rule after the Polish Partitions. My grandfather, who lived with us when I was a child, was born in Volhynia, Russian Empire. He was VERY Russified. He spoke Ukrainian as primary language but never referred to himself as Ukrainian, only Russian. He even directly told me he was from "Little Russia." He attended Russian Orthodox Church and sang in the choir. He also served in the Russian Imperial Army. I know he also spoke Russian and Polish. He only knew how to read/write (minimally) in Russian, though. Education was not compulsory in the Russian Empire, which accounts for the high illiteracy during that period.

Yes, Volyn was under the Russian empire rule. There was also a large revolutionary movement against Tsarist rule in 1863. However, eastern Galicia and Transcarpathia were under Austro-Hungarian rule.

[Rugevit]

OK. The two evidencies from forum participants are fairy-tail.
My belarussian collegues are fairy-tail.
Just you tell the true. :hail: I believe you.:baby2000:


In the Russian's Civil's War caos appeared dozens of new "independent" countries, Far-East Republic, Siberian Republic, Don-Kuban Republic, which if they proclaimed independence from Russia you would applauded for. Even my small town proclaimed an independent "Sochi Republic" during this caos.

The Belarus were created by bolsheviks from Kremlin, they determined their boundaries (and changed several times by their wishes). If the bolshevicks didn't wanted to represent a Revolution as International, they could create ordinary regions instead of Belorussian SSR. It was decided in Moscow, not in Belarus, the republican status of this territory. (Yet, it was not baseless, but that time nobody believed it could separate)

You call us to submit to the implanted the prinsiple: "Divide and Rule", while we insistently refuse. That is the matter.

Yes, they are fairy-tales and you have a superficial knowledge on the subject. The guy from eastern Poland above knows more about Belarusian history and current situation in Belarus than an average Russian including yourself , as it seems. I also linked you to the article describing who created the first independent Belarusian Republic in 1918, which weren't the Bolsheviks who later supported the republic based on ethnographic and linguistic differences.

[Basil]

It has nothing to do with promotion of nationalism. I am speaking about historic facts and I am speaking about general attitudes of moder-day Belarusians. I am a Belarusian. I am a north-eastern Belarusian having lived not far from the the Russian borders and having travelled throughout Belarus. I know the attitudes of people. Russia is not a foreign country as say a western European country but it's not a brotherly nation. It has never been considered as such irrespective what president Lukashenko says each time he needs cheap crude oil from Russia or sell something on the Russian market. At the same time a lot of Russians have a little knowledge about Belarus unable to name a Belarusian city other than Minsk believing what politicians say to them. That does not mean Belarusians are hostile towards the Russians or any other ethnicity be they Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians or Ukrainians. In general , people of Belarus are friendly to their neighbours and all visitors.

Okay, whatever. Still I don't think you can speak for all your fellow countrymen. You are likely a representative of not-so-numerous pro-Western youth and express their views. Do not think Russians live in a bubble, people from Western Russia often travel to your country and have a fair opinion about what people in the streets generally think.

[Rugevit]

Okay, whatever. Still I don't think you can speak for all your fellow countrymen. You are likely a representative of not-so-numerous pro-Western youth and express their views. Do not think Russians live in a bubble, people from Western Russia often travel to your country and have a fair opinion about what people in the streets generally think.

Obviously, I cannot speak on behalf of all my countrymen. There are people having cultural ties with the Russians trying to find as many commonalities with the Russians, as possible. There are people having relatives in Poland (500,000 repatriates left Belarus for poland after WWII) who swear about similarities between Poles and Belarusians. That's natural for people of mixed origins. There is also a lot propaganda and exaggeration coming from politicians and people believe it.

We see many Russians visiting Belarus. If you see a person on the road driving as if he is drunk, then he is likely to have a Russian plate on his car.

[Sanyok]

Yes, they are fairy-tales and you have a superficial knowledge on the subject/ The guy from eastern Poland above knows more about Belarusian history and current situation in Belarus than an average Russiam including yourself , as it seems.
He just supports your separatist rhetoric and naturally simpathizes the slogan "Bealus is not Russia".


I also linked you to the article describing who created the first independent Belarusian Republic in 1918, which weren't the Bolsheviks who later supported the republic based on ethnographic and linguistic differences.
As far as I know, in 1918 those territories were under German government, which bolshevics ceded by Brest peace.

For you, naturally, the Belarussian Republic is something very special, but for bolsheviks it was a briefly-born phantom state, surged from revolutional caos among other dozens of such "independent" states. When the order was restored, they created Belarussian SSR from which modern Belarus state is derived from.


I do want to point out that Volhynia (Northwestern Ukraine) was under Russian Rule after the Polish Partitions. My grandfather, who lived with us when I was a child, was born in Volhynia, Russian Empire. He was VERY Russified. He spoke Ukrainian as primary language but never referred to himself as Ukrainian, only Russian. He even directly told me he was from "Little Russia." He attended Russian Orthodox Church and sang in the choir. He also served in the Russian Imperial Army. I know he also spoke Russian and Polish. He only knew how to read/write (minimally) in Russian, though. Education was not compulsory in the Russian Empire, which accounts for the high illiteracy during that period.
Marusya, could you just imagine for instant, that it was not your great-grandfather russified, but his local relatives were Ukranized during his absence?
There was wave of Ukrainization even at South-west Russia. My grand-mother born in 1925 experienced it, while her the youngest sister did not.

[Ivan Kramskoï]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wAoGzexufo
For Russian is a second language and in this video I understood only the part in Russian (nonetheless it was basic language ^^).
Nonetheless it seems to me that belarussian is closer to Russian than Ukrainian is.
Russian to me sounds more noble too ^^

[Rugevit]

For Russian is a second language and in this video I understood only the part in Russian (nonetheless it was basic language ^^).
Nonetheless it seems to me that belarussian is closer to Russian than Ukrainian is.
Russian to me sounds more noble too ^^

Lexically Belarusian is not closer to Russian than Ukrainian. It's easy to show. The girl on the video speaks with Russian accent too.

[Rugevit]

He just supports your separatist rhetoric and naturally simpathizes the slogan "Bealus is not Russia".


As far as I know, in 1918 those territories were under German government, which bolshevics ceded by Brest peace.

For you, naturally, the Belarussian Republic is something very special, but for bolsheviks it was a briefly-born phantom state, surged from revolutional caos among other dozens of such "independent" states. When the order was restored, they created Belarussian SSR from which modern Belarus state is derived from.
.

Separatist rhetoric? Separating from what? Dude! We live in 2015 and you need a reality check.

First Belarusian Independent republic was not established by the Bolsheviks. Newly formed nations were formed based ethnographic and linguistic borders on territories of former Russian and Astro-Hungarian empires after WWI ended. Belarus was no exception. The Bolsheviks supported the republic as they did for many other republics due to ethnographic and linguistic differences as they did in many other autonomies and republics.

[Marusya]

Marusya, could you just imagine for instant, that it was not your great-grandfather russified, but his local relatives were Ukranized during his absence?
There was wave of Ukrainization even at South-west Russia. My grand-mother born in 1925 experienced it, while her the youngest sister did not.

All of the Russification and Ukrainization sounds chaotic and terrible to me. Poor people to have to go through that. Well, everyone in Volyn today thinks they are Ukrainians, that I know.

[ЛыSSый]

All of the Russification and Ukrainization sounds chaotic and terrible to me. Poor people to have to go through that. Well, everyone in Volyn today thinks they are Ukrainians, that I know.
Якби ви вчились так, як треба,
То й мудрість би була своя.
А то залізите на небо:
«І ми не ми, і я не я,
І все те бачив, і все знаю,
Нема ні пекла, ані раю,
Немає й бога, тілько я!
Та куций німець узловатий,
А більш нікого!..» – «Добре, брате,
Що ж ти такеє?»
«Нехай скаже
Німець. Ми не знаєм».
Отак-то ви навчаєтесь
У чужому краю!
Німець скаже: «Ви моголи».
«Моголи! моголи!»
Золотого Тамерлана
Онучата голі.
Німець скаже: «Ви слав'яне».
«Слав'яне! слав'яне!»
Славних прадідів великих
Правнукі погані!

(С) Тарас Григорьич. Истинный хохол.

Если кратко: скотам похуй - у них памяти нема, только глотка.

[Raikaswinþs]

Apparently the Polish and Belarusian-speaking minorities don't have much rights...

[ЛыSSый]

Apparently the Polish and Belarusian-speaking minorities don't have much rights... :picard2: they have equal rights as anyone else in belarus.

[Sanyok]

25 марта 1918 г. представители нескольких национальных движений в условиях немецкой оккупации объявили о создании независимой Белорусской Народной Республики (БНР).

Высказывается мнение, что в 1918 году именно благодаря усилиям Рады БНР на той части белорусской территории, что находилась под немецкой оккупацией, не было массового голода в результате поставок продовольствия с находившейся в зоне германской оккупации Украины[9].

После ухода немецких войск территория, на которой функционировали структуры БНР, была без сопротивления занята Красной Армией, правительство БНР было вынуждено эмигрировать в Вильну.

The glorified history of "Independent" Belarussian People Republic.

For those who don't understand Russian, my translation:

25 March of 1918 the representatives ofseveral national movements in conditions of German Occupation declared the independent Belorussian People's Republic (BPR).

There is an opinion that in 1918, exactly thanks to the Government of BPR, on the part that was under German occupation, there was no a mass starvation as a result as provision supply from the zone of German occupation of the Ukraine.

After departure of the German troops, the territory which was under control of BPR, were taken without resistance by Red Army. The government of BPR had to fled to Vilno.

The BPR government is still in exile :bump2: , which confirms the absence of legal succession between modern Belarus and that puppet German's state.

The English article from Wikipedia about BPR "forgets" to mention the Germans as Masters of this protectorate.

[Rugevit]

The glorified history of "Independent" Belarussian People Republic.

For those who don't understand Russian, my translation:

25 March of 1918 the representatives ofseveral national movements in conditions of German Occupation declared the independent Belorussian People's Republic (BPR).

There is an opinion that in 1918, exactly thanks to the Government of BPR, on the part that was under German occupation, there was no a mass starvation as a result as provision supply from the zone of German occupation of the Ukraine.

After departure of the German troops, the territory which was under control of BPR, were taken without resistance by Red Army. The government of BPR had to fled to Vilno.

The BPR government is still in exile :bump2: , which confirms the absence of legal succession between modern Belarus and that puppet German's state.

The English article from Wikipedia about BPR "forgets" to mention the Germans as Masters of this protectorate.

So that you know Germany helped to establish several independent states on territories of former Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires. 'German occupation' is the phrase the Russians will use, while Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian-Belarusians will use the term 'occupation' in application to Tsarist rule against which people of Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and Ukrainian rebelled twice in the 19th century. So, it was not the Bolsheviks who established the first state. There was also a short lived Belarusian-Lithuanian Republic for several months.

[ЛыSSый]

So that you know Germany helped to establish several independent states on territories of former Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires. 'German occupation' is the phrase the Russians will use, while Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian-Belarusian will use the term 'occupation' in application to Tsarist rule against which people of Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and Ukrainian rebelled. So, it was not the Bolsheviks who established the first state. There was also a short lived Belarusian-Lithuanian Republic for several months.
let me say it by another words: some people as simargl prefer to suck german dicks as untermenshen that be in equal rights with russians. и пусть попробует рассказать ещё мол он не пидарас и не запроданец.

[Rugevit]

let me say it by another words: some people as simargl prefer to suck german dicks as untermenshen that be in equal rights with russians. и пусть попробует рассказать ещё мол он не пидарас и не запроданец.

There was no Nazi idealogy during WWI. Russia lost the war and territories which should not have been under the Russian occupation in first place. The independence was also offered to Poland and Lithuania(Belarus) during Napoleonic war against Russia . This was part of the deal. But fter Soviet came to power they sent many people to Siberia for owing agricultural equipment, for being priest or owners of some estates in 20s and 30s.

[ЛыSSый]

There was no Nazi idealogy during WWI. ля буду, это им нихуя не мешало славян за людей не считать (у поляков поузнавай). Дядька Адик это просто на официальный режим перевёл.


Russia lost the war and territories which should not have been under the Russian occupation in first place. After Soviet came to power they sent many people to Siberia for owing agricultural equipment, for being priest or owners of some estates.
ну вы поняли? эта пердила русских за оккупантов держит.

[Rugevit]

ля буду, это им нихуя не мешало славян за людей не считать (у поляков поузнавай). Дядька Адик это просто на официальный режим перевёл.

There was no Nazi ideology in WWI. There are political interests irrespective what people think about each on personal level. People of different ethnicities have friends among the Russians. If Russia is going to disintegrate further in the next 50 year, no country, particularly those near Russia is going to shed a tear despite relations on personal level.



ну вы поняли? эта пердила русских за оккупантов держит.

There can be no Russian occupation as such? And Russia is like that princess that does not shit. Dude! You need to think outside of square.

[Sanyok]

So that you know Germany helped to establish several independent states on territories of former Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires. 'German occupation' is the phrase the Russians will use, while Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian-Belarusians will use the term 'occupation' in application to Tsarist rule against which people of Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and Ukrainian rebelled twice in the 19th century. So, it was not the Bolsheviks who established the first state. There was also a short lived Belarusian-Lithuanian Republic for several months.

And how many rebellions of East Slavs were under Lithuanian and Poland rule?
As far as I know, since the XVI century the ukranian lands under the Polish reign were under constant rebellion.

Russian occupation of Belarus:picard1:... It is a fairy tail for retarded persons.
Russians have always brotherhood feeling to the Belarussians.
But I see you prefer be governed by Poles, who even have the term of Servitude Nations. Hlopskie Natsii.

Intersting reference annoying the belarussian nationalists I found now.
http://www.contrtv.ru/common/2763/

[Rugevit]

And how many rebellions of East Slavs were under Lithuanian and Poland rule?
As far as I know, since the XVI century the ukranian lands under the Polish reign were under constant rebellion.

Russian occupation of Belarus:picard1:... It is a fairy tail for retarded persons.
Russians have always brotherhood feeling to the Belarussians.
But I see you prefer be governed by Poles, who even have the term of Servitude Nations. Hlopskie Natsii.

Intersting reference annoying the belarussian nationalists I found now.
http://www.contrtv.ru/common/2763/

There were no rebellions in Belarus during Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was formed as part of the agreement signed in Lublin in 1569. The agreement was reached because of constant threats from Muscovites in eastern territories of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Muscovites ravaged Polotsk eyeing Vilnius which was not far from Polotsk city. East Slavs rebelled twice in the 19th century against Tsarist rule which resulted in ban of Belarusian schools , print in Belarusian language as well as intensification of conversion of Greek Catholic to Orthodoxy .


Russian occupation of Belarus... It is a fairy tail for retarded persons.
Russians have always brotherhood feeling to the Belarussians.
But I see you prefer be governed by Poles, who even have the term of Servitude Nations. Hlopskie Natsii.

Intersting reference annoying the belarussian nationalists I found now.
http://www.contrtv.ru/common/2763/


Russians also had brotherly feelings towards Ukrainians . Probably more than for the Belarusians in the past. So much so that Russian volunteers fight against Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine nowadays. As I said few consider Russians a brotherly nation. 'Brotherly nations' is propaganda fed to you by politicians over the years on purpose. In saying this there is no hatred towards the Russians either. I also gave you a brief account of historic events - partitioning of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1795, participation of Belarusians in Napoleonic war against Russia in return of independence. Two rebellions in the 19th century in Belarus followed by the ban of Belarusian school and print in Belarusian languagesl Not to mention endless wars that ancestors of Belarusians fought against ancestors of Russians prior to the partition of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. It was the occupation of Belarus, Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic states by Russia and Soviet Russia followed by russification.

[Sanyok]

OK, OK. I understood your point of view. Such russian-haters are there even in Russia.

Returning to topic theme.

Example of poem in belarrusian language about Trotskist-Bukharin's sadists apparently of the 1920's

Belarussian:

Мала iх павесiць
На сухой асiне,
Бо нават асiна
Ад сябе адкiне.
Дзерава адкiне,
Дзерава сухое
Сябе не спаганiць
Поскуддзю такою
...
Хай калом магiла
Для вас, злыднi, будзе,
Каб гэтай магiлы
Цуралiся людзи!
Каб гукалi совы
Па-над вамi, псамi,
Косцi расцягалi
Груганы з ваўкамi.

The poem may be easy translated in Russian, without loosing rhyme and keeping every single word.

Мало их повесить
На сухой осине,
Бо назад осина
От себя откинет.
Дерево откинет
Дерево сухое
Себя не споганит
Паскудою такою.
...
Хай калом могила
Для вас, злыдни, будет,
Каб этой могилы
Чуралися люди.
Каб гукали совы,
По-над вами, псами,
Кости растягали
Вороны с волками.

The only incoprehensible word for russian were underlined. Still, maybe it was known in russian dialects.
All the rest difference is the maximum difference in transcription of the same sounds. If not reading, but listening this poem russian would hardly determine that it is in not russian language. The village dialects of some russian regions differed more then this so-called foreign language.

Since then, I suppose, the "development" of belarussian language made it farther from russian.

[Rugevit]

OK, OK. I understood your point of view. Such russian-haters are there even in Russia.

Returning to topic theme.

Example of poem in belarrusian language about Trotskist-Bukharin's sadists apparently of the 1920's

Belarussian:

Мала iх павесiць
На сухой асiне,
Бо нават асiна
Ад сябе адкiне.
Дзерава адкiне,
Дзерава сухое
Сябе не спаганiць
Поскуддзю такою
...
Хай калом магiла
Для вас, злыднi, будзе,
Каб гэтай магiлы
Цуралiся людзи!
Каб гукалi совы
Па-над вамi, псамi,
Косцi расцягалi
Груганы з ваўкамi.

The poem may be easy translated in Russian, without loosing rhyme and keeping every single word.

Мало их повесить
На сухой осине,
Бо назад осина
От себя откинет.
Дерево откинет
Дерево сухое
Себя не споганит
Паскудою такою.
...
Хай калом могила
Для вас, злыдни, будет,
Каб этой могилы
Чуралися люди.
Каб гукали совы,
По-над вами, псами,
Кости растягали
Вороны с волками.

The only incoprehensible word for russian were underlined. Still, maybe it was known in russian dialects.
All the rest difference is the maximum difference in transcription of the same sounds. If not reading, but listening this poem russian would hardly determine that it is in not russian language. The village dialects of some russian regions differed more then this so-called foreign language.

Since then, I suppose, the "development" of belarussian language made it farther from russian.


I already wrote earlier that if Russian Federation disintegrates as a political entity few countries if any will shed a single tear including Ukraine and Belarus. Russia and soviet union have not been the best of empires that ever existed for many reasons. But Russian Federation is a state, not the Russian people who are judged on personal merits rather than on the fact of their citizenship. So comments such as "Russian haters" have no basis.

Modern literary Belarusian was based on Belarusian dialects spoken between Minsk and Vilnius, as Belarusian elite lived and worked in those cities. If they wanted to make Belarusian literary language being more distinct from Russian, they would have chosen dialects spoken in most western Belarus at the time , which is in present day Bilaystok, eastern Poland .

[Bezprym]

Białystok and Eastern Poland are not in geographically White Rus. Southern parts of Eastern Poland are in Red Rus (while majority of these lands are in present-day Ukraine). Even Belarusian city of Brest, which is located just near the border with Poland, is in Black Rus. Not White. Rus =/= Belarus.

About Białystok I am not 100% sure. It is either Black Rus or Prussia. But definitely eastern parts of Poland are more connected with Ruthenians (Ukrainians/Belarusians), and share some similarities, for example in way of speech.

[Rugevit]

A Russian linguist A. F. Zhuravlyov published a doctoral dissertation called "Lexostatistical model of Slavic linguistic affinity". The author developed a statistical model utilising large samples of Slavic words to evaluate lexical distances between Slavic languages.

Samples were obtained from "Etymological dictionary of Slavic languages. Proto-Slavic lexical stock". Currently, there are 39 volumes in the dictionary. Sample sizes (p.113).

Old Church Slavonic — 1124 words
Bulgarian — 3262
Macedonian — 2035
Serbo-Croatian — 4568
Slovenian — 3519

Czech — 4264
Slovak — 2933
Polish -- 3350
Upper Lusatian — 1895
Lower Lusatian — 1574
Polabian — 452
Kashub-Slovincian — 1683

Old Russian — 2681
Middle Russian — 3834
Southern Russian — 3833
Ukrainian — 3905
Belarusian — 3288


Dissertation :http://www.inslav.ru/images/stories/pdf/1994_Zhuravlev.pdf
Etymological dictionary of Slavic languages:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_dictionary_of_Slavic_languages



The plot of similarities between Slavic languages based on lexicostatistical distances from Zhurvalyov's dissertation. Larger resolution : http://postimg.org/image/gzjx1cmy9/full/



http://s8.postimg.org/q7c5i1u0j/k30.png

[TheGoldenSon]

I don't see where is such fuss about it. Serbs and Croats voluntarily reformed their languages in accordance with the Bosnian language in Hum, thanks to the works of Vuk Karadžić on the Serb and Ivan Mažuranić Croatian side. It's just a natural process, they are abandoning a less used version of their language in exchange of using the much more established infrastructure of a more widespread language similar to their own.

[ЛыSSый]

There was no Nazi ideology in WWI. There are political interests irrespective what people think about each on personal level. main difference, that the russia got to your country equal rights with its, but gemnaians helped to create puppet beggar colony.

There can be no Russian occupation as such? And Russia is like that princess that does not shit. Dude! You need to think outside of square. that was a reunion. а потом ты недомеваешь, с каких хуёв змагарчуков дыбилами и пидарасами называют.

[Rugevit]

Białystok and Eastern Poland are not in geographically White Rus. Southern parts of Eastern Poland are in Red Rus (while majority of these lands are in present-day Ukraine). Even Belarusian city of Brest, which is located just near the border with Poland, is in Black Rus. Not White. Rus =/= Belarus.

About Białystok I am not 100% sure. It is either Black Rus or Prussia. But definitely eastern parts of Poland are more connected with Ruthenians (Ukrainians/Belarusians), and share some similarities, for example in way of speech.

In distant history White Rus was in several regions. Finally, the name was given to northern Belarus (Viciebsk region) & eastern Belarus (Mahiliou region). The name Belarus was applied to south-eastern Belarus, southern Belarus , central and western Belarus later. The dialects of the Belarusian language (east Slavic language) were spoken around Bialystok 100-120 years ago at the time modern Belarusian literary language was codified. Bialystok was probably part of historic black Rus region.

[Bezprym]

To which times do you refer? Firstly, it was simply considered as Rus; colours which describe directions had to be known much later. ;)

But yes, dialects were spoken here. Even after World War II in Eastern part of Poland (its southern part located near Ukraine) people were speaking in "chachłacka mowa", which was a Polish dialect of Ukrainian language. Unfortunately, it is going to be extinct. But we still speak differently than other Poles, a bit. Political borders are simply political, not ethnical. So although a shape of a country had changed, people stayed. As Józef Ignacy Kraszewski written in his poem: Who was born here, who live for years here - will not give up his hut even for all gold of the world.

[Rugevit]

To which times do you refer? Firstly, it was simply considered as Rus; colours which describe directions had to be known much later. ;)

But yes, dialects were spoken here. Even after World War II in Eastern part of Poland (its southern part located near Ukraine) people were speaking in "chachłacka mowa", which was a Polish dialect of Ukrainian language. Unfortunately, it is going to be extinct. But we still speak differently than other Poles, a bit. Political borders are simply political, not ethnical. So although a shape of a country had changed, people stayed. As Józef Ignacy Kraszewski written in his poem: Who was born here, who live for years here - will not give up his hut even for all gold of the world.

There is a book written on origins of the term Belarus. There is plenty of information on the subject.

The first mentioning of the Ruthenia Alba was in the 12th century. The name was applied to different regions of what's today north-western Russia, northern Belarus, Latvia and some other region in various chronicles. In 16-17 century the name was applied to what is northern Belarus and adjacent districts of Russia. After the partition of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth a Belarusian governate was formed in 1796 with administrative centre in Viciebsk encompassing territories of what is present -day north-eastern and eastern Belarus as well as adjacent districts in western Russia. It existed for 5 years until it was replaced by Viciebsk and Mahiliou governates. The name was commonly used in reference to one ethnographic region.

The first Belarusian governate (1796-1802)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/RussianEmpireMap1800-07-BelorusskayaProvince.jpg

[Bezprym]

The map you presented show territories far away from Białystok. But still, as far as I understand you talk about more political identification of White Rus, instead of geographic one. It is like Poland - not whole Poland is geographically (or historically) in Poland. I, for instance, live in territories which were located in GDL (and probably Ruthenia before, I am not sure). Rus (Ruthenia) was generally speaking a territory, which belonged to Kievan Rus before fragmentation. And colours were added. :) But I don't negate a fact, that actually in political cases someone might have referred to non White Ruthenian lands as White Rus.

[Rugevit]

The map you presented show territories far away from Białystok. But still, as far as I understand you talk about more political identification of White Rus, instead of geographic one. It is like Poland - not whole Poland is geographically (or historically) in Poland. I, for instance, live in territories which were located in GDL (and probably Ruthenia before, I am not sure). Rus (Ruthenia) was generally speaking a territory, which belonged to Kievan Rus before fragmentation. And colours were added. :) But I don't negate a fact, that actually in political cases someone might have referred to non White Ruthenian lands as White Rus.

I was talking about geographic region. White Rus was a regional name to begin with. Bialystok was likely part of black Rus region in early time. Later from 13-14th centuries until 19th century central and western Belarus including Bialystok were known as Litva (Lithuania). Belarus region was also part of the GDL until the partition. It was only a regional name within the state.

[glass]

He spoke Ukrainian as primary language but never referred to himself as Ukrainian, only Russian. He even directly told me he was from "Little Russia."
Once his generation and generations of those who heard it first hand die off, 'historians' would start to claim that he had stronk ukrainian identity and never referred himself as Russian, butthurt clowns would start bullshiting about this on forums. Much like now history of 18-19 century is being interpreted by some people:rolleyes:
That is the way how 'long' ukrainian' and 'belarussian' history is being written in last 100 years. So stay strong, your grandchildren and may be children would know that they originated from ukrainian lineage that goes hundreds and hundreds years back:picard1:

[Sanyok]

I already wrote earlier that if Russian Federation disintegrates as a political entity few countries if any will shed a single tear including Ukraine and Belarus. Russia and soviet union have not been the best of empires that ever existed for many reasons.
I agree. To be honest, if ANY state desintegrates no one foreign state would "shed a single tear", especially its neighbours! :hungry:

Returning to Belarussian language. At first it was created to be the anti-russian the possible. Then there was attempt to make it closer to russian. But still, the supporters of "true-belarussian" recognized only old version. To aggravate this caos, along with cirilyc orphografy, there were at least two latinnic orphography versions. Afterwards, the language was beeing modified to alienate from russian. Its name was changed from belorussian to belarusian. Still the norms are unknown and supporters of diferent versions recognize only their version as "true". Do anybody still have any questions, why belarussian language is so unused?
For village talking, when they don't give a d**n about these discrepancies, it's OK. For national songs, it's OK.
But in urban life and education it's critical.

Also, imagine you are rural or urban dweller, and one day you are obliged to switch your language to a funny dialect of distant and very special countryside. Even after years of propaganda and pression, you will not be able to accept this language as your native. You will not be able to understand directly the studies in this language, especially technical ones.

Cypriots speak Greek, Brazilians speak Portuguese, Austrians speak German, although they all have local lexical, gramatical, orphografical and fonetic deviations from the original languages. In these countries there are freaks claiming they are speaking independent languages. The Belarus is not in a company of these sober countries, and moderately trying to demonstrate its anti-russianess, while still having russian as a on official language makes this country more far-sighted then its southern neighbour.

[Methmatician]

Also, imagine you are rural or urban dweller, and one day you are obliged to switch your language to a funny dialect of distant and very special countryside. Even after years of propaganda and pression, you will not be able to accept this language as your native. You will not be able to understand directly the studies in this language, especially technical ones.
They accepted Russian so I don't see why they can't go back to Belarusian as long as the state nurtures the language. If they go about it like the Irish do then Belarusian might as well be dead but if they follow Ukraine's example then they might actually revive their language to former levels.

[Rugevit]

I agree. To be honest, if ANY state desintegrates no one foreign state would "shed a single tear", especially its neighbours! :hungry:

You are not honest in the case of Russia. Russia has been seen negatively throughout its existence to say the least. Because of invasions of smaller states and suffering it caused to many peoples and general backwardness of the state.




Returning to Belarussian language. At first it was created to be the anti-russian the possible. Then there was attempt to make it closer to russian. But still, the supporters of "true-belarussian" recognized only old version.

After the ban of Belarusian , Ukrainian, Lithuanian schools and printing material introduced by tsarist authorities was lifted in late 19th century and early 20th century , many ethnicities began to codify their literary languages. Dialect spoken between Minsk and Vilnius (central Belarus at the time) was chosen for literary Belarusian. There was no agenda in making Belarusian anti-Russian (whatever it means in the context of linguistics). If Belarusian elite wanted to make Belarusian literary language to be as different as possible, they would have chosen most western dialects spoken around Bialystok, eastern Poland today. Most linguists agree that the original orthography (tarashkevitsa) is better suited for Belarusian language than the 'russified version' introduced by commies in the 30s. the introduction of new orthography by soviets was yet another attempt of russification.



To aggravate this caos, along with cirilyc orphografy, there were at least two latinnic orphography versions. Afterwards, the language was beeing modified to alienate from russian. Its name was changed from belorussian to belarusian. Still the norms are unknown and supporters of diferent versions recognize only their version as "true". Do anybody still have any questions, why belarussian language is so unused?
For village talking, when they don't give a d**n about these discrepancies, it's OK. For national songs, it's OK.
But in urban life and education it's critical.


There is nothing wrong in using latin alphabet. Many countries use latin and cyrillic alphabets including Orthodox countries. There is no 'beloruss' word in Belarusian language; however, there is belarus which conforms to belarus-ian being similar to the formation of the names of other languages and ethnicities' such as Ital-ian, Hungar-ian, Austr-ian, Norweg-ian in English version etc . People in Belarus and many regions of Ukraine speak Russian due to russification policies throughout Russian and Soviet occupation.





Also, imagine you are rural or urban dweller, and one day you are obliged to switch your language to a funny dialect of distant and very special countryside. Even after years of propaganda and pression, you will not be able to accept this language as your native. You will not be able to understand directly the studies in this language, especially technical ones.

Cypriots speak Greek, Brazilians speak Portuguese, Austrians speak German, although they all have local lexical, gramatical, orphografical and fonetic deviations from the original languages. In these countries there are freaks claiming they are speaking independent languages. The Belarus is not in a company of these sober countries, and moderately trying to demonstrate its anti-russianess, while still having russian as a on official language makes this country more far-sighted then its southern neighbour.

Have you been drinking? Be rational if you want to have a conversation.

[RandoBloom]

Great prospect for pro-Russians. A complete Russification :puke

[Rugevit]

Great prospect for pro-Russians. A complete Russification :puke

There is only one big Russian friend in Belarus - Lukashenko. More than half Belarusians are against unity with Russia as per social surveys. The latest survey

In 2014

51% of Belarusians are against union with Russia
23% in favour union with Russia. The majority of this group is older generation.

Between 35-41% of Belarusians are in favour of union with the EU

http://www.dw.com/ru/%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D 0%B8-%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%8B-%D1%87%D1%83%D1%82%D1%8C-%D1%87%D1%83%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%BB%D 0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C-%D0%BE%D1%82-%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8/a-17347452

One needs to keep in mind Belarusian media controlled by Lukashenka's regime , which often present a negative picture of Europe. Belarusians have been travelling a lot recently receiving more Schengen visas per capita than citizens of other countries. The attitudes are changing.

[Basil]

There is only one big Russian friend in Belarus - Lukashenko. More than half Belarusians are against unity with Russia as per social surveys. The latest survey

In 2014

51% of Belarusians are against union with Russia
23% in favour union with Russia. The majority of this group is older generation.

Between 35-41% of Belarusians are in favour of union with the EU

http://www.dw.com/ru/%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D 0%B8-%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%8B-%D1%87%D1%83%D1%82%D1%8C-%D1%87%D1%83%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%BB%D 0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C-%D0%BE%D1%82-%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8/a-17347452

One needs to keep in mind Belarusian media controlled by Lukashenka's regime , which often present a negative picture of Europe. Belarusians have been travelling a lot recently receiving more Schengen visas per capita than citizens of other countries. The attitudes are changing.

Well, it's not the latest. It's from December, 2013, published in January, 2014.
Here are results from this June. It's the same survey, conducted by the same agency (based in Lithuania), but more up-to-date. Some interesting questions and answers.
1) Crimea
62,3% - "Historical reunion of the Russian lands"
21,5% - "Act of aggression against sovereign nation"
2) Novorussia
47,4% - "People have a right for self-determination"
27% - "We support the territorial integrity of Ukraine"
10,5% - "Novorussia doesn't exist. It's a Russian aggression against Ukraine"
3) Hypothetical referendum on joining EU
YES - 25,1%
NO - 51%
4) Union with Russia (i.e. creating one country)
YES - 28,3%
NO - 50,9%
5) Either/or
Russia - 51,4%
EU - 31,4%
http://news.tut.by/politics/454374.html

[Rugevit]

Well, it's not the latest. It's from December, 2013, published in January, 2014.

4) Union with Russia (i.e. creating one country)
YES - 28,3%
NO - 50,9%
5) Either/or
Russia - 51,4%
EU - 31,4%
http://news.tut.by/politics/454374.html

Okay! A slight increase in 5% between 2013 and 2014 in favour of union with Russia. Still half of the population are against any unions with Russia. The slight increase is likely due to intensive propaganda from Russian media of which there is plenty in Belarus lately. The trend against union with Russia has been growing in Belarus in the last 10 years more and more people favouring EU as they travel more. It's for this reason many European countries want ease the process of obtaining visas for Belarusian citizens. People of Belarus nick-named the Custom's Union (Таможенный Союз), as untamed union (таёжный союз). Parents in Minsk have been calling for the government to close the border with Russia due drug and smoking spices trafficking from Russia. Generally, union with Russia is not viewed positively except possibly by Russian immigrants (16% of the populations are Russians) and old timers brought up during Soviet era, who won't be with us forever.

PS There is nothing about 'creating one country' in the survey. It was your interpretation. The article merely states a union between Russia and Belarus.

[glass]

People of Belarus nick-named the Custom's Union (Таможенный Союз), as untamed union (таёжный союз).
Do not confuse your own fantasies with desires of people of Belarus.
Even this survey (made from Lithuania) shows that belarussians prefer Russia over EU. Lukashenko has strong support of 60%+ of population too.

[Sanyok]

The trend against union with Russia has been growing in Belarus in the last 10 years more and more people favouring EU as they travel more. It's for this reason many European countries want ease the process of obtaining visas for Belarusian citizens.

Curiously, russian people are favouring less the European Union as they travel more there! :)

Your southern neighbour was the same way fascinated (and maybe still is) with European Union. All the European Prospects and promices from EU apearde to be false. No one waits Ukraine in EU, no abolished visa regime, no european salaries (sincerely saying, they became african), no financial help, no free trade, no new industries (but closed existing ones). And you still think that Belarus will be diferent. Congratulations! We now can see what are the consequences of Belarussian-language (as well as Ukrainian-language) education.

[Rugevit]

Do not confuse your own fantasies with desires of people of Belarus.
Even this survey (made from Lithuania) shows that belarussians prefer Russia over EU. Lukashenko has strong support of 60%+ of population too.

Read the the results of survey from the institute based in Vilnius, which clearly shows more than half are against union with Russia. 51% are against union with Russia and there has been a trend in that direction in the last 10 years.

[Rugevit]

Curiously, russian people are favouring less the European Union as they travel more there! :)

Your southern neighbour was the same way fascinated (and maybe still is) with European Union. All the European Prospects and promices from EU apearde to be false. No one waits Ukraine in EU, no abolished visa regime, no european salaries (sincerely saying, they became african), no financial help, no free trade, no new industries (but closed existing ones). And you still think that Belarus will be diferent. Congratulations! We now can see what are the consequences of Belarussian-language (as well as Ukrainian-language) education.

More Shchengen visas are issued to citizens of Belarus per capita than to citizens of in any other country. In other words Belarusian travel more in Shchengen area. They also travel in Russia to see the difference.

[glass]

Read the the results of survey from Lithuania which clearly shows more than half are against union with Russia.
But also half against union with EU, and 51% prefer Russia if choice is either Russia or EU (only 31% for EU).
Googled 'Таежный союз', got just some anti0russian anti-Putin blogs and page on vk.ru. Most of them not even from Belarus, but have .ua :picard1:
Some clowns are trying hard to create new 'meme', not really successful, because it did not make on public forums:picard1:
They should try harder:rolleyes:


More Shchengen visas are issued to citizens of Belarus per capita than in any other country. In other words Belarusian travel more in Shchengen area. They also travel in Russia to see the difference.
They do not travel to Europe, they are just smuggling cheap goods to Poland.

[Rugevit]

But also half against union with EU, and 51% prefer Russia if choice is either Russia or EU (only 31% for EU).
Googled 'Таежный союз', got just some anti0russian anti-Putin blogs and page on vk.ru. Most of them not even from Belarus, but have .ua :picard1:
Some clowns are trying hard to create new 'meme', not really successful, because it did not make on public forums:picard1:
They should try harder:rolleyes:

It does not change the fact that 51% of the population are against union with Russia and there has been a trend. Таежный союз is common saying in Belarus. I know the sentiment and common saying regardless in which sources you found about it. There is a lot of censorship and negative publicity about EU in media. In spite of the attitudes towards EU and Russia has been changing.

[Basil]

Okay! A slight increase in 5% between 2013 and 2014 in favour of union with Russia. Still half of the population are against any unions with Russia. The slight increase is likely due to intensive propaganda from Russian media of which there is plenty in Belarus lately. The trend against union with Russia has been growing in Belarus in the last 10 years more and more people favouring EU as they travel more. It's for this reason many European countries want ease the process of obtaining visas for Belarusian citizens. People of Belarus nick-named the Custom's Union (Таможенный Союз), as untamed union (таёжный союз). Parents in Minsk have been calling for the government to close the border with Russia due drug and smoking spices trafficking from Russia. Generally, union with Russia is not viewed positively except possibly by Russian immigrants (16% of the populations are Russians) and old timers brought up during Soviet era, who won't be with us forever.

PS There is nothing about 'creating one country' in the survey. It was your interpretation. The article merely states a union between Russia and Belarus.

In their media release it reads 'referendum on union of Belarus and Russia' and 'union with Russian Federation'. For me it sounds like a union of Crimea and Russia. If it means something else it's a fault of those Lithuanian guys behind the survey for not clarifying the issue.

The trend is explicable. People are more accustomed to live in independent Belarus now than it was 15 years ago. People do not want major changes. Still when forced to give a definite answer whether they want joining EU and being alienated from Russia or joining Russia they prefer Russia.

[Rugevit]

They do not travel to Europe, they are just smuggling cheap goods to Poland.

Smugglers are truck drivers and the likes. There are people who hold Polish card frequently visiting Poland. So don't spread nonsense about things you have no idea.

[glass]

It does not change the fact that 51% of the population are against union with Russia and there has been a trend.
And the same 51% against EU. If combine results from different questions, 28% wants union with Russia, 26% with EU and 46% do not want any unions. If choice is either Russia or EU, for Russia 50% and for EU 31%. This means every second from those who actually do not want unions prefer Russia over EU and only tiny minority from those who do not want unions prefer EU.
So there is 25-30% pro EU, and 65%+ pro-Russia or leaning towards Russia. Even more generally friendly to russians. Visitors from Russia do not meet any animosity from locals.
Truth often hurts. But you gotta deal with it.

And do not tell me about brainwashing by russian media. Lukashenko officially blames Russia or 'situation in Russia' for everything that is not going good in Belarus. According to his excuses to masses, Belarus is doing everything for union with brotherly nation, but Russia often fails Belarus. I have many friends who visits Belarus regulary, also my younger bro spent there 2 weeks 3 months ago. And i feel like i know situation in Belarus better than somebody who is presumably living there:picard1:

[Rugevit]

In their media release it reads 'referendum on union of Belarus and Russia' and 'union with Russian Federation'. For me it sounds like a union of Crimea and Russia. If it means something else it's a fault of those Lithuanian guys behind the survey for not clarifying the issue.

But that was your interpretation which is fine by me as long as you acknowledge it as you translate the text from original source.


The trend is explicable. People are more accustomed to live in independent Belarus now than it was 15 years ago. People do not want major changes. Still when forced to give a definite answer whether they want joining EU and being alienated from Russia or joining Russia they prefer Russia.

There is a lot of negative publicity in censored media about EU. There is a definite negative trend in attitudes towards union with Russia reflect in this survey often mentioned by sociologists, occasionally by some politicians. You don't need to look at survey to see the differences.

[aksakallicocuk]

Byelo Russians and Russians aren't really different.

[Rugevit]

And the same 51% against EU. If combine results from different questions, 28% wants union with Russia, 26% with EU and 46% do not want any unions. If choice is either Russia or EU, for Russia 50% and for EU 31%. This means every second from those who actually do not want unions prefer Russia over EU and only tiny minority from those who do not want unions prefer EU.
So there is 25-30% pro EU, and 65%+ pro-Russia or leaning towards Russia. Even more generally friendly to russians. Visitors from Russia do not meet any animosity from locals.
Truth often hurts. But you gotta deal with it.

Your attempt to manipulate the figures is a failure. EU has not been a dream for the Belarusians. And the truth is that 51% are against union with Russia despite media censorhorship and propaganda.


And do not tell me about brainwashing by russian media. Lukashenko officially blames Russia or 'situation in Russia' for everything that is not going good in Belarus. According to his excuses to masses, Belarus is doing everything for union with brotherly nation, but Russia often fails Belarus. I have many friends who visits Belarus regulary, also my younger bro spent there 2 weeks 3 months ago. And i feel like i know situation in Belarus better than somebody who is presumably living there:picard1:

If talking about Russians, some of them are not just brain-washed. Some of them are from a parallel universe together with much of Russian media.

[Rugevit]

Number of Shchengen visas per 100,000 people

Belarusian citizens – 9284
Russian citizens - 3901
Ukrainian citizens – 3182

The total number of Schengen visas issued to Belarusian citizens were 880000. Of which 323000 by Polish embassy and 238 000 by Lithuanian embassy. If exclude the visas issued by embassies of these 2 countries, then there were 3364 visas issued to Belarusian citizens per 100,000 of population. This is still higher than for Russia and Ukraine.
http://news.tut.by/society/445988.html

[glass]

Your attempt to manipulate the figures is a failure. EU has not been a dream for the Belarusians. And the truth is that 51% are against union with Russia despite media censorhorship and propaganda.
все татары, кроме я:picard1:
---------------------
Vast majority of belarussians are pro-russian, but english speaking forum is not really attractive place to them. So repsentative of tiny, ridiculed in country minority can write bullshit on behalf of people of Belarus.
And my gift to you, it may cause some pain in your butt, but i am sure you can handle it, not first time afterall:D
cossack choir performs in Belarus, look at spectators :thumb001:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKnEu3CNnak

[Arhat]

And the same 51% against EU. If combine results from different questions, 28% wants union with Russia, 26% with EU and 46% do not want any unions. If choice is either Russia or EU, for Russia 50% and for EU 31%. This means every second from those who actually do not want unions prefer Russia over EU and only tiny minority from those who do not want unions prefer EU.
So there is 25-30% pro EU, and 65%+ pro-Russia or leaning towards Russia. Even more generally friendly to russians. Visitors from Russia do not meet any animosity from locals.
Truth often hurts. But you gotta deal with it.

And do not tell me about brainwashing by russian media. Lukashenko officially blames Russia or 'situation in Russia' for everything that is not going good in Belarus. According to his excuses to masses, Belarus is doing everything for union with brotherly nation, but Russia often fails Belarus. I have many friends who visits Belarus regulary, also my younger bro spent there 2 weeks 3 months ago. And i feel like i know situation in Belarus better than somebody who is presumably living there:picard1:

It is quite fascinating how obsessed Russians are about Belarus and Ukraine and try to tell people from there what they have to do and what they have not to do. This kind of total arrogance is one of the reason why Russia is getting more and more unpopular in both countries among young people. It is like a man stalking a women and always trying to tell her what is best for her and than he wonders why she gets pissed of by him. Russia is certainly not unpopular in Belarus and prior to the war in Ukraine it was certainly not unpopular in Ukraine but more of this arrogant attitude and "Green Men" will even make Belarus an enemy of Russia

[Rugevit]

все татары, кроме я:picard1:
---------------------
Vast majority of belarussians are pro-russian, but english speaking forum is not really attractive place to them. So repsentative of tiny, ridiculed in country minority can write bullshit on behalf of people of Belarus.
And my gift to you, it may cause some pain in your butt, but i am sure you can handle it, not first time afterall:D
cossack choir performs in Belarus, look at spectators :thumb001:


Some Russians seem to think if there is nothing bad said about them then that country is pro-Russian. People can only be anti-Russian if they start constantly saying something about Russia or go to war against Russian volunteers etc.

And read the results of the survey. 51% of Belarusians are against union with Russia in spite of propaganda and media censorship in Belarus. Moreover, the political friendship between Belarus and Russia is conditional on the presence of Lukashenko 's regime. It's known in the west that puts a lot of pressure on Lukashenko's government at every opportunity and it's known in Kremlin that financially supports Lukashenko regime. As soon as Lukashenko's regime goes close political ties will evaporate quickly.

The only support that may exist is among ethnic Russians and older generation grandfathers and grandmothers.

[Rugevit]

It is quite fascinating how obsessed Russians are about Belarus and Ukraine and try to tell people from there what they have to do and what they have not to do. This kind of total arrogance is one of the reason why Russia is getting more and more unpopular in both countries among young people. It is like a man stalking a women and always trying to tell her what is best for her and than he wonders why she gets pissed of by him. Russia is certainly not unpopular in Belarus and prior to the war in Ukraine it was certainly not unpopular in Ukraine but more of this arrogant attitude and "Green Men" will even make Belarus an enemy of Russia

There is a lot of soul-searching among the Russians; they are also desperate to find a friendly nation not realising they are shooting themselves in the leg in doing so. ;) Ukraine is good example.

[Not a Cop]

My great grand mother was born near Brest Litovsk in the late 19th century, she considered herself Russian and only spoke Russian but didn't have a Russian family name (I guess it could have been a Belarussian name).
I don't have answer for this, perhaps because it was a very small ethnicity close to a bigger and quite close other they lost their language and a part of their culture.


Similar story here...my g grandfather was born in or real near Krivichi in Belarus, but had a Polish surname And (to make matters more confusing) considered himself Russian before anything else.

Woah, just look at this!

Simple guys from Belarus considered themself Russian back in 19th century!

Must be Russian propaganda guys!

Truth is that there has always been a cultural-dialectual continum in East-Slavic lands, which was fucked up by foreign conquests and now by language policy of newly created states.

Btw just lol at Irish compassion, more like why don't Austrians speak German instead of Austrian? Why don't they guyz???

[Not a Cop]

I do want to point out that Volhynia (Northwestern Ukraine) was under Russian Rule after the Polish Partitions. My grandfather, who lived with us when I was a child, was born in Volhynia, Russian Empire. He was VERY Russified. He spoke Ukrainian as primary language but never referred to himself as Ukrainian, only Russian. He even directly told me he was from "Little Russia." He attended Russian Orthodox Church and sang in the choir. He also served in the Russian Imperial Army. I know he also spoke Russian and Polish. He only knew how to read/write (minimally) in Russian, though. Education was not compulsory in the Russian Empire, which accounts for the high illiteracy during that period.

Oh, wait, just look at another ugly case of Russian Imperialism!

[Rugevit]

Woah, just look at this!

Simple guys from Belarus considered themself Russian back in 19th century!

Must be Russian propaganda guys!

Truth is that there has always been a cultural-dialectual continum in East-Slavic lands, which was fucked up by foreign conquests and now by language policy of newly created states.

Btw just lol at Irish compassion, more like why don't Austrians speak German instead of Austrian? Why don't they guyz???


Another Russian member, who doesn't know that Russians were identified as GreatRussians in the 19th century. As well as the existence of 1897 census in the Russian empire in which LittleRussians(Ukrainians), Belarusians and GreatRussian were identified.

[Brasileiro2]

Off-topic: Simargl, I need your mod power for one reason. A strange thing happened.

[Not a Cop]

Another geneious from Russia, who doesn't know that Russians were GreatRussians in the 19th century and the existence of 1897 census in the Russian empire in which LittleRussians(Ukrainians), Belarusians and GreatRussian were identified.

Woah, now we are getting personal! I got this census on my pc and so what?

Ah, wait those poor guys were retarded you mean, and weren't able to separate three ethnicities in their mind?

[Rugevit]

Woah, now we are getting personal! I got this census on my pc and so what?

There is nothing personal. I am stating the obvious despite what you have on your HD.

[Not a Cop]

There is nothing personal. I am stating the obvious despite what you have on your HD.

Ok, ok, but how does it change the fact of ancteros of thoose guys identifying as Russians?

[Marusya]

Oh, wait, just look at another ugly case of Russian Imperialism!

I may think he was brainwashed, but he never seemed upset about this. ;) I mean, he was Ukrainian not Russian, but yet he had no "Ukrainian" self-identification. To him, "Ukrainians" were those Galician Greek Catholics who mainly lived in Canada. He didn't identify with them. Anyway, he came to America for economic reasons, not to flee "russification policies."

He also played Red Army Choir albums he got from his church REALLY LOUD on Saturday morning. To this day, I hate the Volga Boatman Song. :D I'm sorry.

[Shkembe Chorba]

Simple guys from Belarus considered themself Russian back in 19th century!

Okay, I was mostly reading in this thread, but I think it is highime:

http://i.imgur.com/hT7RzNk.png

http://i.imgur.com/ul2wTat.png

http://i.imgur.com/abpthk1.png

---------------

How come those people call themselves Belorussian, since there where only Russian ethnicity at that time? And how come Lenin invented Ukrainian identity, knowing that Rassiyskaya Social-demokraticheskaya rabochaya partiya first congress is not until an year later after those statistics from above?


Must be Russian propaganda guys!

And the demographic results from 1897 must be American propaganda guys!

[Marusya]

Ok, ok, but how does it change the fact of ancteros of thoose guys identifying as Russians?

Our ancestors weren't retarded. lol That is how they were taught to identify themselves. Simple as that.

Ok, this is how my grandfather, born and raised in the Russian Empire, explained where he was from to me. He held up the palm of his hand and said: "Big part - Great Russia. Part over here - White Russia. Bottom part - Little Russia. I'm from there! All Russian people." That said, he knew there were three ethnic Slavic groups, but, for his generation, they were also all Russians, too. In fact, US Immigration did not list the term "Ukrainian" on their immigration forms until after WWII. Prior to that, it was either Russian or Ruthenian (Rusniak). Ruthenians were from Galicia. No Belarusian, no Ukrainian.

Note about Kresy - Interwar period Ukrainian immigrants to USA: They were recorded as Polish. Yes, let's make things even more confusing than they already are!

[XenophobicPrussian]

Belarussian(which is a mix of Polish, Russian and Lithuanian) isn't the native language of Belarus either. They spoke a Baltic language similar to Lithuanian and Latvian before the half Indo-Iranian hordes came.

[Not a Cop]

Okay, I was mostly reading in this thread, but I think it is highime:

---------------

How come those people call themselves Belorussian, since there where only Russian ethnicity at that time? And how come Lenin invented Ukrainian identity, knowing that Rassiyskaya Social-demokraticheskaya rabochaya partiya first congress is not until an year later after those statistics from above?



And the demographic results from 1897 must be American propaganda guys!

Shit you do really fail to understand my sentence about East-Slavic cultural-dialectual continium?


Belarussian(which is a mix of Polish, Russian and Lithuanian) isn't the native language of Belarus either. They spoke a Baltic language similar to Lithuanian and Latvian before the half Indo-Iranian hordes came.

Loremaster strikes again!

[Shkembe Chorba]

Shit you do really fail to understand my sentence about East-Slavic cultural-dialectual continium?



Loremaster strikes again!

I didnt talk about your sentence of East-Slavic cultural-dialectual continium, I was talking about Belarussians were identified as Russians in the 19th century. Which is not true according to your Russian official data of the census in 1897. Now, what is your excuse? False data? American intervention? People forced to not state themselves as Russian?

[Arhat]

Belarussian(which is a mix of Polish, Russian and Lithuanian) isn't the native language of Belarus either. They spoke a Baltic language similar to Lithuanian and Latvian before the half Indo-Iranian hordes came.

Belarussian is certainly as much as native in Belarus as German is in Germany. For current political discussions it does not matter which languages were spoken there before and if we follow this strange logic than basically almost every IE language is not native anywhere. Large parts of Belarus were inhabited by early Slavs and the south was likely even inhabited by some Proto or at least Pre-Proto Slavs. There were no Indo-Iranian hordes in Belarus at least if talk about Post-Corded Ware times. Indo-Iranians had hardly a major genetic impact anywhere in Slavic eastern Europe.

[glass]

I was talking about Belarussians were identified as Russians in the 19th century.
Dear, Chorba. How is it possible to be so stupid? Look at census again.
They are all russians, Russian from Russia called GreatRussian, from Little Russia ukrainian and from White Russia belarussian. This division is purely geographic. Examples of people who were living 100 years in White Russia or Little Russia confirms it. You can be russian and ukrainian at the same time, but you can't be greatrussian and ukrainian at the same time.
IN your Bulgaria, bulgars from different towns have different names (dependent on town's name), but they are still bulgars:picard1:

[Shkembe Chorba]

Dear, Chorba. How is it possible to be so stupid? Look at census again.
They are all russians, Russian from Russia called GreatRussian, from Little Russia ukrainian and from White Russia belarussian. This division is purely geographic.

By that logic of entry in the table Bulgarians, Serbs and Czechs are all the same, separated by dialects, but still one ethnicity? So we could be Czechs and Bulgarians at the same time?

http://i.imgur.com/u4gblKv.png

Now, that we are cleared (after another Bulgarian reference), go back to the other thread, and tell about that fake photo for the exhibition.


IN your Bulgaria, bulgars from different towns have different names (dependent on town's name), but they are still bulgars:picard1:

According to the table, they dont have different names, but different languages:

http://i.imgur.com/uwyEalO.png

[glass]

By that logic of entry in the table Bulgarians, Serbs and Czechs are all the same, separated by dialects
Your stupidity has no bounds:picard1:
Their group called slavic languages. They are all slavic right?
Great Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussians are all russians. They are all russian for people who lived during that time.

THis thread has examples of Marusya's and Ivan Kramskoi's grandparents. Who had opportunity to be ukrainian or belarussian, but they did not use it. They were better at being just russian from Little or White Russia.

[Shkembe Chorba]

Your stupidity has no bounds:picard1:
Their group called slavic languages. They are all slavic right?
Great Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussians are all russians.

And again. Your logic leads to Romanians, Spaniards, French people and Italians are all treated as Romans according to you. Because the divisions of Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainians is just as the same as it is for Italians & Romanians, Bulgarians & Czechs, Swedes & Englishmen.

Mmmmkaaaay.

http://i.imgur.com/G3tE85H.png

[Shkembe Chorba]

IN your Bulgaria, bulgars from different towns have different names (dependent on town's name), but they are still bulgars:picard1:

If it was the same thing then in our official census there would be statistic of how many people from Varna there is in Sofia. Not such thing.

[glass]

And again. Your logic leads to Romanians, Spaniards, French people and Italians are all treated as Romans according to you. Because the divisions of Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainians is just as the same as it is for Italians & Romanians, Bulgarians & Czechs, Swedes & Englishmen.

:picard1: Not romans, but people speaking romance language. You disagree with this? Ethnicity in that census is based on language afterall.
Russians are closer to Russian authotiries, so division between them should be more detailed. While nobody in Russia cares from where gypsies came from Bulgaria, Romania, INdia or anything else? So they all just gypsies.
Russian propaganda is confirmed by every source. Fantasies of new ukrainian and belarussian 'historians' are just their fantasies and delirium. Deal with it. :rolleyes:
CHorba you have only one single butt, let your butt enjoy a few days without pain. IT is part of your body afterall.

[Sanyok]

http://i.piccy.info/i9/9c310e3fac3705d847023d31b61302cf/1439109413/19798/641046/G3tE85H.png (http://piccy.info/view3/8583334/23655e0bfacacafb9e60b5524e459860/)http://i.piccy.info/a3/2015-08-09-08-36/i9-8583334/504x429-r/i.gif (http://i.piccy.info/a3c/2015-08-09-08-36/i9-8583334/504x429-r)

What I can see from this table is

Great Russians, Little Russians and Bielo Russians are all of the Russian Language. This is the only subdivision in this table which has "total" quantiny, unlike other languages.

[Sanyok]

Ah! Also look at Lativan-Lithunian dialects. Lithunian and Samogitian are the different nations here!

Free Samogitia!
Why the "Civilized Society" does nothing about it?
Indenpendent Samogitia or Death!
I'm sure, that Samogitian's rights are not respected!
If you don't see any national samogitian problem in modern Lithuania, that's because Samogitians were forcely Lithuanized! Where do the European Right's activists watch?
Samogitians must forget Lithuanian language and speak only Samogitian!
Union of Samogitia and Lithuania is forced and totalitarian!


Calm down. All bold here is sarcastic.

If you think, you are quite neutral and unprejudiced toward Russia, just change "Samogitian" to "Belorussian" and "Lithuanian" to "Russian". And you will get not sarcastic and extremly stupid slogans of a forum troll, but "democratic", "european" and "sober" point of view of the consious forum participant.

[Shkembe Chorba]

:picard1: Not romans, but people speaking romance language. You disagree with this? Ethnicity in that census is based on language afterall.
Russians are closer to Russian authotiries, so division between them should be more detailed. While nobody in Russia cares from where gypsies came from Bulgaria, Romania, INdia or anything else? So they all just gypsies.
Russian propaganda is confirmed by every source. Fantasies of new ukrainian and belarussian 'historians' are just their fantasies and delirium. Deal with it. :rolleyes:
CHorba you have only one single butt, let your butt enjoy a few days without pain. IT is part of your body afterall.

GROUP OF LANGUAGES

Oh, my Lord, you moskals here are hopeless, there is a huge wall of blind ignorance. Its like talking to a Capuchin.

[Methmatician]

Ah! Also look at Lativan-Lithunian dialects. Lithunian and Samogitian are the different nations here!

The census is on language not ethnicity.

[ЛыSSый]

Great Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussians

http://cs540101.vk.me/c540108/v540108929/11737/02_hrM104LU.jpg

[Sanyok]

The census is on language not ethnicity.

The topic is about Belorussian language in Belarus. It is in the same conditions as Samogitian language in Samogitia (actualy part of Lithuania). Why nobody concerns about Lithuanization of Samogitians? Why nobody finds unnatural that Samogitians speak Lithuanian?

Theanswer is simple. Russia is very big. Historicaly europeans want to fragmentize it. That all these fairy-tails about non-russian ukrainians and non-russian belorussians goes from this fact. Divide and Rule! That's pretty clear. But in order to avoid any fears among russians, this division is given under shiny wrapping of democratic values, right concerns, hipocritical concerns about welfare of new nations, the ideas of national exclusiveness, false aspirations of "better live separately" and so on.

[Rugevit]

The topic is about Belorussian language in Belarus. It is in the same conditions as Samogitian language in Samogitia (actualy part of Lithuania). Why nobody concerns about Lithuanization of Samogitians? Why nobody finds unnatural that Samogitians speak Lithuanian?

Theanswer is simple. Russia is very big. Historicaly europeans want to fragmentize it. That all these fairy-tails about non-russian ukrainians and non-russian belorussians goes from this fact. Divide and Rule! That's pretty clear. But in order to avoid any fears among russians, this division is given under shiny wrapping of democratic values, right concerns, hipocritical concerns about welfare of new nations, the ideas of national exclusiveness, false aspirations of "better live separately" and so on.

Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats speak essentially the same language despite being different nations, ethnicities having different histories. Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians have separate languages, ethnographies and histories. Lithuanians and Samogitians have the same histories for the last 700-800 years. Ethnogenesis of Belarusians and Ukrainians occurred in a separate state from Russia during 14-16 centuries. Belarusians and Ukrainians do not consider Russians a brotherly nation. Russians are at war with Ukrainains having Russian volunteers in eastern Ukraine. Brotherly relations exist in the mind of brain-washed individuals .

[Rugevit]

Ancestors of Belarusians fought so many wars against the Russians. Here is one of the better known battles

The Battle of Orsha was fought on 8 September 1514, between the allied forces of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland, under the command of Hetman Konstanty Ostrogski; and the army of the Grand Duchy of Moscow under Konyushy Ivan Chelyadnin and Kniaz Mikhail Golitsin.

According to Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii by Sigismund von Herberstein, the primary source for information on the battle, the much smaller army of Poland–Lithuania (under 30,000 men) defeated a force of 80,000 Muscovite soldiers, capturing their camp and commander. Sigismund also claimed that his army had killed 30,000 Muscovites and taken prisoner 46 commanders and 1,500 nobles.

Konstanty Iwanowicz Ostrogski (c. 1460– August 10, 1530) who defeated the Muscovites was a magnate of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and later a Grand Hetman of Lithuania since September 11, 1497, until his death. As a speaker of the Ruthenian language he is considered to be one of the precursors of the Belarusian language and a national hero in Belarus.

[Methmatician]

The topic is about Belorussian language in Belarus. It is in the same conditions as Samogitian language in Samogitia (actualy part of Lithuania). Why nobody concerns about Lithuanization of Samogitians? Why nobody finds unnatural that Samogitians speak Lithuanian?

You were talking about the census which is about language, not ethnicity.

[Sanyok]

Belarusians and Ukrainians do not consider Russians a brotherly nation. Russians are at war with Ukrainains having Russian volunteers in eastern Ukraine. Brotherly relations exist in the mind of brain-washed individuals .

Brotherly relations between two brother countries is brain-washing? )) National odium is "right", "democratic" and "european"? OK-OK!))



Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians have separate languages, ethnographies and histories.
Belorissian and Malorossian lands were not independent states, they were part of Russia under foreign government.
Non-russian period of 1200-year history of Kiev laster from 1243 to 1654. 409 year period of being Mongolian vassal and unfaithfull autonomy in Lituania doesn't make this city non-russian.
The history of Belarus was more affected by foreign powers, but this does not make local habitant nor lithuanians, nor poles. Certainly, belarussians now have some regional distinctions, while not forget that the same distinctions are there among other russian-ethnic regions.

There were many battles, digging well, one can find many reasons for national odium. I see you carefully preserve and blow out of nothing the mutual heartburning between our people, even when there is no grounds.
According to Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii by Sigismund von Herberstein, the primary source for information on the battle, the much smaller army of Poland–Lithuania (under 30,000 men) defeated a force of 80,000 Muscovite soldiers
Sigismund lost that war, Smolensk returned to Russia. To sweeten the pill of war loss, he invented the myth about "80 000 orde of Moscovites". The russian annals account the 17 000 soldiers from Poland-Lithuanian side and 13 000 soldiers from Russian side.
Anyway, it doesn't affect Belorussian-Russian relationship.

[Rugevit]

Brotherly relations between two brother countries is brain-washing? )) National odium is "right", "democratic" and "european"? OK-OK!))



Belorissian and Malorossian lands were not independent states, they were part of Russia under foreign government.
Non-russian period of 1200-year history of Kiev laster from 1243 to 1654. 409 year period of being Mongolian vassal and unfaithfull autonomy in Lituania doesn't make this city non-russian.
The history of Belarus was more affected by foreign powers, but this does not make local habitant nor lithuanians, nor poles. Certainly, belarussians now have some regional distinctions, while not forget that the same distinctions are there among other russian-ethnic regions.

There were many battles, digging well, one can find many reasons for national odium. I see you carefully preserve and blow out of nothing the mutual heartburning between our people, even when there is no grounds.
According to Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii by Sigismund von Herberstein, the primary source for information on the battle, the much smaller army of Poland–Lithuania (under 30,000 men) defeated a force of 80,000 Muscovite soldiers
Sigismund lost that war, Smolensk returned to Russia. To sweeten the pill of war loss, he invented the myth about "80 000 orde of Moscovites". The russian annals account the 17 000 soldiers from Poland-Lithuanian side and 13 000 soldiers from Russian side.
Anyway, it doesn't affect Belorussian-Russian relationship.

Dude, you are living in a bubble.

Open the map of Lithuania in 1514. 90% of Lithuania were Slavic lands . Millitary units of the Lithuanian army were assembled mostly from the territories of present day of Belarus. Orsha battle is one of the most important battles fought against Muscovites , which is well known in Belarus. The great Lithuanian commander Konstanty Iwanowicz Ostrogski who won the Orsha battle against Muscovites was a Ruthenian. In fact most great Lithuanian commanders and Lithuanian chancellors one of the most important political figure during Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth were Slavs from Ruthenian lands. Some were also Poles. This very easy to check and prove. http://dodontitikaka.narod.ru/index/0-55

That goes for many Lithuanian magnates, who were Slavs or Slavicised. Also, the state language of Lithuania was Ruthenian having Lithuanian constitutions written in Ruthenian. That's not say Baltic Lithuanian made little contribution particular in earlier periods of history. Baltic lineage among grand dukes among is akin to Rurikid lineage among Muscovites ruler. Nobody consider Ivan the terrible who was Rurikid a foreign rule. Lithuanian magnates, commanders and politicians were native to our lands. Nobody considers them foreign.

Belarusians, Ukrainians, Poles and Lithuanians are historic allies. Musovites/Russians were invaders and occupants.

[Sanyok]

"Historic allies" Lithuanians and Poles fought for the Vilno.
"Historic allies - Poles and Ukrainians" it even sounds ridiculous, so much hostilities were among them.

Nationalism is a thing of XIX century. Earlier the people were quite indifferent to the nationality of the governer, national composition of their country and so on.

You accurately collect and note every Russian-Polish hostility forgetting, for example, the Russian-Polish alliance in the Northern War.
You think think that Belarus was something very exclusive, but civil wars, neighbor wars, feudal wars were the part of reality of that era. I don't see hostility inside any european nation. Germans must hate each other by your logic.

[Rugevit]

"Historic allies" Lithuanians and Poles fought for the Vilno.
"Historic allies - Poles and Ukrainians" it even sounds ridiculous, so much hostilities were among them.

Nationalism is a thing of XIX century. Earlier the people were quite indifferent to the nationality of the governer, national composition of their country and so on.

You accurately collect and note every Russian-Polish hostility forgetting, for example, the Russian-Polish alliance in the Northern War.
You think think that Belarus was something very exclusive, but civil wars, neighbor wars, feudal wars were the part of reality of that era. I don't see hostility inside any european nation. Germans must hate each other by your logic.

Wars were fought for Smolensk, Briansk , Orsha, and even for regions near Moscow. Vilnia was a cultural and political capital of Belarusians for many centuries. There were few Baltic speaking people lived in the city in later periods. It is good that you recalled the northern war during which Peter the Great burned down city of Vitsiebsk , whose residents supported the Swedes against the Russians. Read about endless wars between Muscovy / Russia and Lithuania, and who was behind those wars on the Lithuanian side. A lot of them from regular soldiers to commanders were eastern Slavs - ancestors of Belarusians. For example, during times of trouble (smuta) the great chancellor of Lithuania Leo Sapieha (a Ruthenian from territories of present day Vitebsk region) was behind it. After partition of PLC ancestors of Poles and Belarusians fought on Napoleons side against the Russians. People of Volyn (Ukraine), Belarus, Poland and Lithuania participated in two revolutions against Tsar rule in the 19th century.

Ancestors of Poles, Belarusians, Lithuanians and Ukrainians to some extent were historic allies, while Russia was the aggressor ravaging eastern cities of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was formed to counter the aggression of Muscovy on eastern provinces of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania - what is present day eastern Belarus.

[Methmatician]

The topic is about Belorussian language in Belarus. It is in the same conditions as Samogitian language in Samogitia (actualy part of Lithuania). Why nobody concerns about Lithuanization of Samogitians? Why nobody finds unnatural that Samogitians speak Lithuanian?
What Lithuanisation?

[Not a Cop]

I didnt talk about your sentence of East-Slavic cultural-dialectual continium, I was talking about Belarussians were identified as Russians in the 19th century. Which is not true according to your Russian official data of the census in 1897. Now, what is your excuse? False data? American intervention? People forced to not state themselves as Russian?

Excuse, lol i'm not incel enough for that, i just gave you examples of people identifying themself as Russians (in broader sense if you want). There will always be separatists, especially in provinces like Padania and similar stuff, doesn't change the main course.

[Not a Cop]

Belarusians and Ukrainians do not consider Russians a brotherly nation. Russians are at war with Ukrainains having Russian volunteers in eastern Ukraine. Brotherly relations exist in the mind of brain-washed individuals .

Brotherly relations do not exist in minds of brain-washed individuals.

[glass]

To those who wants to argue here? Why do you bother? Proper discussion with butthurted clowns is impossible.
Simargl and Chorba types are described pretty well (in russian though)
Simargl (http://lurkmore.to/%D0%97%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80)
Chorba (http://lurkmore.to/%D0%9E%D0%BF%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B8%D 1%8F)
Their common traits

Полная неспособность в восприятие чужого мнения, хоть немного отличного от собственного, не говоря уже о полемике и аргументации; в лучших традициях. Мнение, хоть немного отличающееся от Правильного™, будет закидано какашками с особым цинизмом, даже в тех случаях, когда человек в общем-то за то же самое. При малейшей критике сабжа начинает кидаться говном в критикующего. Постоянно использует слова «запутыш», «едрос», «нашист», а также производные от них. Несогласные с ним автоматически попадают в список жуликов и воров. И это при том, что нехилая часть оппозиционеров выступает какбе за право каждого на своё мнение.

Всем своим видом показывает, что является носителем сакральной правды об окружающей действительности и знает нечто такое, чего, правда, не говорит. Заявляет, что оппонент черпает информацию исключительно из новостей Первого канала, даже несмотря на чёткую логическую связь в его рассуждениях, в противовес оппозиционерскому визгу и сумбуру.

Непроходимая тупость и отсутствие рациональной аргументации, как и у всех фимозных.

«Это не мы далеки от народа, это народ далёк от нас»

PS: Individuals of such types do not repsent point of view of people. Actually majority view them as butthurted clowns and idiots.

[Sarmatian]

You are an ignorant about a history. Poland was for 123 years under partitions of Russia, Prussia and Austria and we kept our language intact.

Are you even serious? Are you really comparing Poland - one of the oldest fully developed ethnicities in Europe (even Germans as unified nation are few centuries younger) with centuries of existing as a sovereign state and at some point the most developed country in Europe - to Belarus? You kept your language because your self-identity is one of the strongest in Europe and just over 100 years of living under someone's rule won't take that away. I'm sincerely amazed I have to explain such simple thing.

[Sarmatian]

A single Russian nation concept was the invention during Tsarist rule picked up by the Soviets as a mean of Russification. That's the reason for 3 new ethnicities invention after partition of Polish-Lithanian commonwealth - in order to russify people of Ukraine and Belarus.

Before 1795 Belarus and much of Ukraine was in Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. Before Lublin Union Belarus was in GDL, since 1250. Even before that time different Slavic tribes lived on territories of modern day Belarus, Ukraine and Russia in ancient times. Ethnogenesis of 3 eastern Slavic nations occurred in different states under different circumstances.

The amount of fact twisting and lies in this bit is amazing. Why do you start describing history of Belarus from 1250? If you're going back that far why don't you go further? Why don't you explain what entity existed there before the date? Must be because existence of Principality of Polotsk as a part of Kievan Rus under Rurikids doesn't really fit the picture you're trying to present here. In your story the culture and statehood came to these lands only once they were taken by PLC. Cool story but I have to disappoint you - Rus principality covered most of the territory of modern Belarus since early Rurikids and served as basis for strong cultural affinity with the rest of Rus states which later transformed into idea of tri-united Russian nation. The formation of these nations indeed occurred in different states and under different circumstances but initially it was one cultural entity.


Ancestors of Belarus fought so many wars against ancestors of Russians never considering Muscovites as brotherly peoples.

Sure some Belarusians where fighting against Russians. So as some Cossacks, Tatars, Bashkirs and many others. What does that suppose to prove? As with any contested territory placed between two major competing powers local population produced sympathizers for both of them. Some were allied with PLC, some with Russia, for most their political affiliation was based strictly on their chances to retain local positions of power and to accumulate personal wealth. You know how it is: 'smart' guys are always pragmatic, in their 'universe' ideology is for cannon fodder.


There was no forced conversion of common folks into Greek Catholicism. There was an agreement in Brest and Greek Catholicism was supported and introduced by nobility over common folks. For common folks it did not mean a thing ас similar traditions were observed.

You should read about 'holy deeds' of some local 'saints', how they butchered whole villages for refusal to convert from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.


Kalinovski revolutionary was Belarusian, as so many other revolutionaries. They were Poles or Lithuanians as part of the Russian propaganda, who blamed Catholic Poles and Lithuanians. In addition, Belarusian ancestors together with ancestors of Poles fought the Russians during Napoleonic war followed by 2 revolutions.

As I described before there were Polish agents and Russian agents, just business as usual and nothing new. I take it you're rather anti-Russian agent which would explain your one-sided views.


If Belarusians were not against the Russians, their schools and books would not have been banned by Tsarist authority.

Empire has done what needed to be done in order to ensure integrity of the empire. When reading passages like yours I sometimes think Russian empire was too soft in dealings with all this ethnic discontent. They should've adopted 'civilized' British methods, than today we would've nobody to complain about 'evil imperialist Russians'.


The 'development' as you describe in the context of linguistics does not make much sense. What do you mean by un-developed Ukrainian language 100 years ago? Literary language was not codified?

Try to write a physics article in Belarusian. That would be a funny read. Sure you can develop new vocabulary for it but why bother if since its very appearance the entire science in Belarus was running in well developed Russian? It's like inventing a bike all over again.

All in all as an independent entity Belarus only exists for just over 20 years. For their entire previous existence they were part of Russia or PLC and being positioned in the middle of that contest is what shaped their identity. Naturally being under someone's higher authority they were unable to develop vocabulary needed in state functioning or in science since they just used the one given by that authority. Today they can go any way they want and it seems they choose the easiest one.

[Arhat]

To those who wants to argue here? Why do you bother? Proper discussion with butthurted clowns is impossible.
Simargl and Chorba types are described pretty well (in russian though)
Simargl (http://lurkmore.to/%D0%97%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80)
Chorba (http://lurkmore.to/%D0%9E%D0%BF%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B8%D 1%8F)
Their common traits





PS: Individuals of such types do not repsent point of view of people. Actually majority view them as butthurted clowns and idiots.

And you wonder why Russia has no friends except of some confused Stalinists and Neo-Nazis? Insulting other people or using racist slurs is just proving that you are desperate. It is just funny to watch when some brainwashed people want to tell a Belarusian what Belarusians feel and what is their opinion about Russia :picard2: Reading all this posts of confused and brainwashed people here convinced me that Russians are doing everything to piss off as much as nations/peoples as they can. Russia is now basically doing everything it can to destroy itself and all this bla bla about superior russian tradition, gay Europeans, Reptiloids and Russkiy Mir is just getting more and more pathetic and annoying even for someone who was hardcore pro-russian some years ago.

[blizzard]

It is just funny to watch when some brainwashed people want to tell a Belarusian what Belarusians feel and what is their opinion about Russia
Do you mean Simargl as 'Belarussian'? I wonder if he is actually Lithuanian or half Lithuanian.

As for brainwashing...
Look at 'official' (as it is claimed) map of languages in Belarus (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Население_Белоруссии#.D0.AF.D0.B7.D1.8B.D0.BA.D0.B E.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.B9_.D1.81.D0.BE.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B0 .D0.B2) - according to map roughly 40% speak Belarusian, some regions even 80% speaking Belarusian.

Compare with some of comments left by Belarusians in article Language map of Belarus (http://kireev.livejournal.com/607830.html):

Но на самом деле, уровень белоруссизации - хорошо, если 5%. А трасянка - да, это таки наше все.
- "level of Belarussian is hardly 5% maximum..."


Имхо, очень сомнительная карта. Насколько я понимаю, в современной Белоруссии белорусскоязычных (тех, для кого этот язык родной и кто его использует как основной в общении) - менее 10%, на это сетовали даже мои знакомые белорусы, некоторые из них принципиально белорусскоязычные (типа литераторы, интеллигенция) во время моего посещения Минска в 2005 году, не думаю, что ситуация за 4 года могла радикально поменяться. Поэтому, откуда взяться районам с 90% белорусскоязычных, ума не приложу. Мне кажется, что если перепись проходила недавно, то такие данные дали, чтобы противопоставить их российскому влиянию, в пику России.
- "...in modern Belarus Belarussian is speaked by less than 10%..."
- "...where did they get districts with 90% Belarussian speakers, i have no understanding. It seems to me that if census was made recently, this data was presented to be against russian influence, to 'kick' Russia"

If you will be able to translate other comments you will understand who is really brainwashed.

[Rugevit]

The amount of fact twisting and lies in this bit is amazing. Why do you start describing history of Belarus from 1250? If you're going back that far why don't you go further? Why don't you explain what entity existed there before the date? Must be because existence of Principality of Polotsk as a part of Kievan Rus under Rurikids doesn't really fit the picture you're trying to present here. In your story the culture and statehood came to these lands only once they were taken by PLC. Cool story but I have to disappoint you - Rus principality covered most of the territory of modern Belarus since early Rurikids and served as basis for strong cultural affinity with the rest of Rus states which later transformed into idea of tri-united Russian nation. The formation of these nations indeed occurred in different states and under different circumstances but initially it was one cultural entity.

There are no twisting of the facts. There are only facts.

Between the time Oleg captured Kiev and disintegration of Rus at the times of Yaroslav the wise was just little over 200 years. During those times there was no unified ethnicity in Kievan Rus. There were different Slavic tribes living in Rus speaking different dialects described by Nestor . The ethnogenesis of Belarusians , Russians and Ukrainians occurred later in different states. PLC did not take over anything. There was an agreement in Lubin in 1569 between Lithuania (90% Slavic at the time) and Poland to resist Muscovites ravaging eastern provinces of the GDL . That's how PLC was formed. There is no such thing as unified Russian nation. Ancestors of Belarusians and Ukrainians are described as Ruthenians, because they were different from the Russians living in another state.




Sure some Belarusians where fighting against Russians. So as some Cossacks, Tatars, Bashkirs and many others. What does that suppose to prove? As with any contested territory placed between two major competing powers local population produced sympathizers for both of them. Some were allied with PLC, some with Russia, for most their political affiliation was based strictly on their chances to retain local positions of power and to accumulate personal wealth. You know how it is: 'smart' guys are always pragmatic, in their 'universe' ideology is for cannon fodder.


Not some. Lots of Belarusians' ancestors fought wars against ancestors of Russians. See the number of wars between Lithuania and Muscow principality/Russia . Belarusians were well represented in the Lithuanian army. Ancestors of Belarusians also fought wars during Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Napoleonic wars against the Russians. Not to mention two upraisings against Tsarist rule in the 19th century. Belarusians never allied with the Russians except possibly during WWII. Russian historians call the numerous wars between Lithuania and Moscow principality as a great stand-off in eastern Europe during which Slavs were killing other Slavs.



You should read about 'holy deeds' of some local 'saints', how they butchered whole villages for refusal to convert from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.

Nonsense. Most Belarusians were Greek Catholic, who essentially follow Orthodox relegious traditions. Nobility converted to Roman Catholicism voluntary to enjoy certain priviledges. The main difference between Orthodoxy and Greek Catholicism is that the latter is under authority of Pope. To ordinary people the conversion did not mean thing in most cases. You should read how Russians butchered whole villages for refusal to convert from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy, and allowing to convert to another religion from Orthodoxy.




Empire has done what needed to be done in order to ensure integrity of the empire. When reading passages like yours I sometimes think Russian empire was too soft in dealings with all this ethnic discontent. They should've adopted 'civilized' British methods, than today we would've nobody to complain about 'evil imperialist Russians'.

When reading passage like yours everyone around sees how backward is Russian mentality. Such attitudes and behaviours is exactly the reason why every neighbouring nation of Russia in eastern Europe is hoping the backward empire (it is still an empire without a monarch) would collapse one day.



Try to write a physics article in Belarusian. That would be a funny read. Sure you can develop new vocabulary for it but why bother if since its very appearance the entire science in Belarus was running in well developed Russian? It's like inventing a bike all over again.

All in all as an independent entity Belarus only exists for just over 20 years. For their entire previous existence they were part of Russia or PLC and being positioned in the middle of that contest is what shaped their identity. Naturally being under someone's higher authority they were unable to develop vocabulary needed in state functioning or in science since they just used the one given by that authority. Today they can go any way they want and it seems they choose the easiest one.

Belarus was part of Lithuania in Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. Lithuania had a separate administration , separate courts, border customs, and constitutions written in Ruthenian (Old Belarusian). Many magnates and most great hetmans (commanders) of Lithuania and great chancellors of Lithuania were natives to territories of present day Belarus. See the article on ethnic composition of the ruling class in Lithuania during PLC I posted above. Also, if you know bits and pieces about history, then you have no idea about the language . Absolutely no idea what you are talking about the language.

[Rugevit]

PS: Individuals of such types do not repsent point of view of people. Actually majority view them as butthurted clowns and idiots.

If you age going to continue insulting other members littering the topic, you will be reported which may lead to disciplinary measures.

[Sanyok]

Ancestors of Poles, Belarusians, Lithuanians and Ukrainians to some extent were historic allies, while Russia was the aggressor ravaging eastern cities of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was formed to counter the aggression of Muscovy on eastern provinces of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania - what is present day eastern Belarus.
Why Russia was agressor when reconquering russian lands in XV-XVIII century, and the Lithuania was not agressor when invading Rus in XIII century?


Ancestors of Belarusians also fought wars during Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Napoleonic wars against the Russians. Not to mention two upraisings against Tsarist rule in the 19th century.
It's better not to mention, I agree. Because this uprisings were unsuccessful, were lead by polonized-aristocracy (shlyakhta) while local belorussian majority were passive.


Lithuania had a separate administration , separate courts, border customs, and constitutions written in Ruthenian (Old Belarusian).
"Ruthenian" is hear-canding for you, yet in slavic languages the word "Ruthenian" sounds as "Russin", "Russinskiy". This word was applied to medieval russians as well. By the way the authencity of Lithuanian constitution written in Russin is very doubtful.

You accurately digging and collecting every fact of Russian-Bielorussian hostility, each historical case you judge through the nationalist point of view.

The were innumerous cruel wars and conflicts among German states and principalities, but this didn't obstruct the formation of single German nation, and common language based on High-Saxon dialect. The France and Burgundy were bloody rivals, but now it is ne nation speaking one language. And your attemps to oppose the Belarus to Russia (due to your European aspirations) are ridiculous.

By the way! Yesterday one my friend flew to Sochi from St.Petersburg. He flew by the BelAir company via Minsk. The both planes were full of belarussians but everybody spoke russian. Only the greeting before the flights were made in belorssian (translated into english and russian). The impression is that state promotes using of belorussian language. Promotes, but not doesn't force. So, people naturally speak russian.

[Marusya]

I'm reading this book right now about Adam Kysil, Ukrainian Diplomat and Statesman: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25778373?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents He was born in Volyn, Ukraine and died in Brest, Belarus. He was Orthodox when much of the Ruthenian nobility was converting to Catholicism.

Kysil, Adam [Кисіль, Адам; Kysil’], b 1600, d 3 May 1653 in Brest, Belarus. Ukrainian statesman and diplomat in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Kysil was born into a prominent Orthodox noble family in Volhynia. He was educated at the Zamostia Academy, where he befriended the famous Polish statesman Tomasz Zamoyski, who later helped him in his political and diplomatic career. From 1617 he served in the military, gaining prominence for his successes in the Polish wars with the Ottoman Empire, Muscovy, and Sweden. He also gained a reputation at the court as an effective negotiator. He was sent as the envoy of King Sigismund III Vasa to the Kyiv Church Synod of 1629, which had been convened to reconcile the Orthodox and Uniate churches. In local dietines (see Dietine) and in the Diet, he defended the interests and rights of the Orthodox church, although he was always able to maintain close contacts with Uniate and Roman Catholic leaders, despite the atmosphere of distrust that existed at the time. In 1637 he was sent to negotiate an end to the Cossack rebellion led by Pavlo Pavliuk, but Poland later reneged on the agreements and ruthlessly repressed the Cossacks. From 1649, he was one of the central figures in the negotiations to end the uprising led by Bohdan Khmelnytsky. He helped conclude the agreements reached in Pereiaslav (February 1649), Zboriv (August 1649; see Treaty of Zboriv), and Bila Tserkva (September 1651), and tried to find a compromise between the Poles and the Cossacks. Following the signing of the Treaty of Bila Tserkva, he was appointed voivode of Kyiv to supervise the implementation of the terms of the agreement. During his career, Kysil received many honors and was appointed to a variety of administrative posts: castellan of Chernihiv (1639), senator (1641), castellan of Kyiv voivodeship and Bratslav voivodeship (1646), and Kyivan voivode. He was able to use his positions to amass a great fortune and became one of the richest men in Ukraine with large estates in Volhynia voivodeship, Kyiv voivodeship, and Chernihiv voivodeship. He was buried in his family's church in Nyskynychi, Volhynia. A supporter of the political and social system of the Polish Commonwealth, Kysil strove unsuccessfully to find a compromise between the Orthodox and the Uniates, and between the Polish government and the Zaporozhian Host.

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CK%5CY%5CKysilAdam.htm

[Rugevit]

Why Russia was agressor when reconquering russian lands in XV-XVIII century, and the Lithuania was not agressor when invading Rus in XIII century?

Many Ruthenian boyars welcomed Lithuanian dukes who provided the defence against the Tatars in early periods of history. Few hundred years later ancestors of Ukrainians and Belarusians lived in another state known as the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Later in Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, while Russian ancestors lived in Moscow principality. It's during those time the ethnogenesis of peoples took place in different states. You can think of Lithuania being an aggressor, while other see Moscow principality being an aggressor who also ravaged Novgorod Republic, Tver principality in coalition with Tatars, eastern provinces Lithuania and many other regions around Moscow. Look at the size of Russia today. But more importantly, people in two different states were quite hostile towards each other never considering Muscovites allies or their brothers.



It's better not to mention, I agree. Because this uprisings were unsuccessful, were lead by polonized-aristocracy (shlyakhta) while local belorussian majority were passive.

How do you imagine a tiny minority of polonised nobility responsible for the upraising? The well known revolutionary Kalinovski was a Belarusian . Poles were responsible for upraising in Poland, Baltic Lithuanians - in Lithuania. Ancestors of Ukrainians -- in Volyn. Ancestors of Belarusians in Belarus. The fact that Belararusian and Belarusian languages was banned by Tsarist authority is further evidence that Belarusians were against Tsarist rule. Even there was a small number of polonised nobility they were still ancestors of Belarusians, as they were native to Belarus speaking Belarusian and ethnographically Belarusian adopting Polish ethnic identity because of Roman Catholic religion. Here is a good example how a Belarusian speaking woman living on territories of present day Belarus identify herself recorded by an ethnographer in the 19th century

Спросите вы, напримѣръ, какую нибудь мѣщанку, кто она такая? – Polka, отвѣтитъ она вамъ. – Откуда родомъ? – Z Litwy. – Какъ говорятъ дома? – Po litewsku. Между тѣмъ, по наведеніи болѣе точныхъ справокъ оказывается, что ни сама она, ни ея родные ни слова не понимаютъ по-литовски, а исключительно говорятъ по-бѣлорусски.
— Н. Янчукъ ”По Минской губерніи (замѣтки изъ поѣздки въ 1886 году)” Москва, 1889


There is also a lot of Russian propaganda about oppression of passive Ukrainians and Belarusians by Polish nobility . That's just propaganda being far from the truth. Read history critically evaluation the fact presented to you rather than re-iterating the propaganda.





"Ruthenian" is hear-canding for you, yet in slavic languages the word "Ruthenian" sounds as "Russin", "Russinskiy". This word was applied to medieval russians as well. By the way the authencity of Lithuanian constitution written in Russin is very doubtful.

You accurately digging and collecting every fact of Russian-Bielorussian hostility, each historical case you judge through the nationalist point of view.

The were innumerous cruel wars and conflicts among German states and principalities, but this didn't obstruct the formation of single German nation, and common language based on High-Saxon dialect. The France and Burgundy were bloody rivals, but now it is ne nation speaking one language. And your attemps to oppose the Belarus to Russia (due to your European aspirations) are ridiculous.

By the way! Yesterday one my friend flew to Sochi from St.Petersburg. He flew by the BelAir company via Minsk. The both planes were full of belarussians but everybody spoke russian. Only the greeting before the flights were made in belorssian (translated into english and russian). The impression is that state promotes using of belorussian language. Promotes, but not doesn't force. So, people naturally speak russian.

Russians and Ukrainians are at war today, who don't consider you a brotherly nation. Neither do the Belarusian despite what Lukashenko says each time he needs cheap oil from Russia. Russian ancestors were known as Moscuvites or Russians, while Belarusian and Ukrainians ancestors are known as Ruthenians in literature for a reason. And the reason is those people were not the same. One can come up with any ethnic identification, but it won't change the fact that Russians are a separate group of people with different history being hostile doing towards their neighbours.

[ЛыSSый]

who deleting my posts?

[glass]

who deleting my posts?
Look at your own signature
"Only butthurted clowns minuses my posts":D

[Sanyok]

Many Ruthenian boyars welcomed Lithuanian dukes who provided the defence against the Tatars in early periods of history. Few hundred years later ancestors of Ukrainians and Belarusians lived in another state known as the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Later in Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, while Russian ancestors lived in Moscow principality. It's during those time the ethnogenesis of peoples took place in different states. You can think of Lithuania being an aggressor, while other see Moscow principality being an aggressor who also ravaged Novgorod Republic, Tver principality in coalition with Tatars, eastern provinces Lithuania and many other regions around Moscow. Look at the size of Russia today. But more importantly, people in two different states were quite hostile towards each other never considering Muscovites allies or their brothers.
Russians had never applied to themselves the term of "Mosocvites". The term "Muscovites", not Russians, used by Polish-Lithunian nobility to prevent the natural simpathy of their Russian. The used by you term "Ruthenian" in slavic languages sounds "Russin". Moscow at first was just a tiny and poor principality.
"Ravaged" Novgorod, Tver, Ryazan etc. were part of Rus. Unlike the Germans and Italians, Russians overpassed the period of feudal fragmentation. So this lands were united again, naturaly they tried to unite all the Rus, that is the reason of special interess towards Rus lands of Lithuania. Smolensk was under Lithuanian government as long as Kiev, but nobody states now that it is foreign to Russia.
The Tartars sometimes were in coalition with Moscow, sometimes with Lithuania, there is still unassimilated Tartar diaspora in modern Lithuania.




How do you imagine a tiny minority of polonised nobility responsible for the upraising? The well known revolutionary Kalinovski was a Belarusian .
Polonized belaruusian, which lead unsuccesfull uprising.
While city dwellers could determine themselves as Poles or Lithunians, the peasant majority had Russian (White-Russian) self-identfication.


Russians and Ukrainians are at war today, who don't consider you a brotherly nation.
Still spreading this fairy-tail about Russian-Ukrainian war? :) Russia is not a part of the conflict. There is a civil war in Ukraine, mainly expressed in ukrainian bombings and shellings of Donbass.
If there were a war between our countries it would hadbeen finished in a week. Instead of this Russia continues supply Ukraine with energy sources and Ukraine as always asks for cheapper price. Is it possible between two warring countries? Is it possible that an "agressor" country recieves a lot of refugees from "victim" country?


who deleting my posts?
I guess they are deleted by european-minded democratic supporter of speech freedom.

[Guapo]

who deleting my posts?

Not me

[Shkembe Chorba]

who deleting my posts?

Ме.

[Guapo]

Ме.

I hate you, whenever I see your name I get hungry and a bit horny

[Sarmatian]

There are no twisting of the facts. There are only facts.

Oh really? Lets see..


Between the time Oleg captured Kiev and disintegration of Rus at the times of Yaroslav the wise was just little over 200 years. During those times there was no unified ethnicity in Kievan Rus. There were different Slavic tribes living in Rus speaking different dialects described by Nestor .

You are omitting the fact that in these 200 years all the Slavic tribes populating territories of Rus principalities were converted into Orthodoxy which together with linguistic similarity served as the foundation of Rus/Russian continuum. All variations were built later on this foundation.


The ethnogenesis of Belarusians , Russians and Ukrainians occurred later in different states.

That is true hence why they even called different names. But that fact on its own still cannot serve as sufficient reason to claim they are totally different entities. There are way too many similarities.


PLC did not take over anything. There was an agreement in Lubin in 1569 between Lithuania (90% Slavic at the time) and Poland to resist Muscovites ravaging eastern provinces of the GDL . That's how PLC was formed.

Well that's true, it was GDL that captured territories of Rus principality. What difference does it make in context of our argument? The point still stands - Rus lands were captured by culturally alien entity with following cultural transformation of local population. Yet that transformation didn't turn local population into culturally alien towards rest of Rus, only altered it a bit. Which is the prime reason Belarusians have no problem using Russian language - it's not alien to them.


There is no such thing as unified Russian nation. Ancestors of Belarusians and Ukrainians are described as Ruthenians, because they were different from the Russians living in another state.

You are using Latinized term to justify divide in Rus continuum. Why? Are you that stupid or you intentionally want to split culturally similar entity? What is your motivation here?

Ruthenian is Latinized term used in Western countries to describe entire Kievan Rus at first and only since 16th century was applied towards Ukrainians and Belarusians exclusively. No East Slavs ever used this term as self name. They always called themselves Rusyns or Ruski. Read about Galician resistance in Austro-Hungarian empire who were executed and sent to concentration camps in the beginning of 20th century for calling themselves Russki and keeping Orthodox faith. That is after centuries of being separated from most of Russians.


Not some. Lots of Belarusians' ancestors fought wars against ancestors of Russians. See the number of wars between Lithuania and Muscow principality/Russia . Belarusians were well represented in the Lithuanian army. Ancestors of Belarusians also fought wars during Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Napoleonic wars against the Russians. Not to mention two upraisings against Tsarist rule in the 19th century. Belarusians never allied with the Russians except possibly during WWII. Russian historians call the numerous wars between Lithuania and Moscow principality as a great stand-off in eastern Europe during which Slavs were killing other Slavs.

Slavs killing Slavs, Germans killing Germans, Chinese killing Chinese... It's been like that for centuries. What's new about it? How does that fact supposed to prove they belong to different cultural entities?


Nonsense. Most Belarusians were Greek Catholic, who essentially follow Orthodox relegious traditions. Nobility converted to Roman Catholicism voluntary to enjoy certain priviledges. The main difference between Orthodoxy and Greek Catholicism is that the latter is under authority of Pope. To ordinary people the conversion did not mean thing in most cases. You should read how Russians butchered whole villages for refusal to convert from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy, and allowing to convert to another religion from Orthodoxy.

Fact twisting again. You are trying to undermine the difference between Orthodoxy and Greek Catholicism when in fact at the time the difference was significant enough for people to die for it. That's the main difference between me and you. I know both sides were pursuing their imperial ambitions and were quite brutal at that. While you are trying to claim that only one side was pure evil imperialist and implying the other side was benevolent and life of Orthodoxes under Catholic rule was just fine. Well, it was not. They were used and abused, raped and slaughtered left and right. When empires are clashing simple folk is inevitably suffering. And you have no ground to blame one empire for all the suffering, both empires are equally guilty. Thus if you position yourself as descendant of PLC go cry about your Szlachta for dragging your folk into all that mess.


When reading passage like yours everyone around sees how backward is Russian mentality. Such attitudes and behaviours is exactly the reason why every neighbouring nation of Russia in eastern Europe is hoping the backward empire (it is still an empire without a monarch) would collapse one day.

Are you autistic or something? Can you recognize the grades of emotions? Where did you see me saying that is exactly what I want to happen? All I said is when dealing with 'smart' idiots (which doesn't happen often) sometimes I feel (which is contrary to persistent everyday mentality) like Russian empire was too soft on some ethnic idiots and should've adopted 'progressive' ways of British empire (imagine that, if we compare atrocities of both, Russians end up looking like naïve little kids). Can you tell the difference between a moment of emotional outrage caused by stupidity of a third part and persistent mentality driving decisions and actions in everyday life and subsequently on large scale shaping global national policies?


Belarus was part of Lithuania in Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. Lithuania had a separate administration , separate courts, border customs, and constitutions written in Ruthenian (Old Belarusian). Many magnates and most great hetmans (commanders) of Lithuania and great chancellors of Lithuania were natives to territories of present day Belarus. See the article on ethnic composition of the ruling class in Lithuania during PLC I posted above.

Thanks, Captain Obvious, but where do you see me denying all that? And how does your passage meant to explain the question about language we discussing here? Can you specify what language was used in Belarus under Lithuanian authority in official documents - Belarusian or Lithuanian? Or maybe both? Than in which cases and at what proportions?


Also, if you know bits and pieces about history, then you have no idea about the language . Absolutely no idea what you are talking about the language.

Can you give me a link on article in Physics in Belarusian? I want to see how many authentic Belarusian scientific terms there are in it.

[Grace O'Malley]

Well the main thing is clearly that its so heavily influenced by Russia and Russian language. The fact that Russian and Belarusian are so similar also doesn't help since people will feel comfortable speaking it much quicker. I wouldn't say that its completely comparable to the loss of Irish language in Ireland because the Brits actually punished those who spoke Irish on many occasions and in many ways forced its extinction. I think the language is just proving to be not so useful and if there aren't real any hugely nationalistic attachments to it, its naturally going to die out. I know that in some ways Ukrainian was a language mostly spoken by rural people and wasn't really important even in Ukraine up until recently, if thats also the case in Belarus, which this article seems to suggest, then that could also be a reason.

I don't find this to be particularly surprising. The only way they'll hold onto their language is through fierce attachment to it, which would probably be paired up with some sort of nationalist movement. (I.e. what the Basques have been doing ever since Franco died).

Yes agree it isn't the case that the Irish lost their language willingly. This was over an 800 year period and the biggest death knell to Irish was the Famine when most of the Gaelic speakers died or immigrated. It is a different history and shouldn't be compared. There was also Plantations of populations from Britain so there was a determined effort by the English to eradicate the Irish language and this was done over a long period of time. Irish also was seen as a language of no future among a lot of people so all this contributed to very few people continuing to speak the language.

"A combination of the introduction of a primary education system (the 'National Schools'), in which Irish was prohibited until 1871 and only English taught by order of the British government, and the Great Famine (An Drochshaol) which hit a disportionately high number of Irish speakers (who lived in the poorer areas heavily hit by famine deaths and emigration), translated into its rapid decline. Irish political leaders, such as Daniel O'Connell (Domhnall Ó Conaill), too were critical of the language, seeing it as 'backward', with English the language of the future. The National Schools run by the Roman Catholic Church discouraged its use until about 1890. This was because most economic opportunity for most Irish people arose at that time within the United States of America and the British Empire, which both used English. Contemporary reports spoke of Irish-speaking parents actively discouraging their children from speaking the language, and encouraging the use of English instead. This practice continued long after independence, as the stigma of speaking Irish remained very strong." Hopefully the language will make a revival as it is still taught in the schools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Irish_language

Anyway I hope Belarusians continue to speak their language.

[ЛыSSый]

Ме.

it's a lie. there are no gypsy moderators in this forum.

[achat]

I talked only with those who Russian speakers, haven't seen the difference and knew they are from Belarus only after they told me. Lukashenko speaks with pronounce, but he is also with Ukrainian roots.

[Хозяин]

Belarussians seem not fully formed nation, whose political formation process was stopped and partially canceled by russification in XX century. I respect any linguistic choice of local people, but most Belaruses I know have very inconsistent views on their nation and history, and are not in favor of their native language.

[Shkembe Chorba]

Are you liberating Belarus soon?

[Not a Cop]

Are you liberating Belarus soon?

Belarus is already a land of freedom.

[Jehan]

and are not in favor of their native language.

Might it be that belarussians knows that most of there population haven't the capacity or the time to learn belarussian language and be fluent in two languages?

Speaking russian is an advantage for business and education (as many materials are already translate in russian language). So pass everything in belarussians will be costly.

[Shkembe Chorba]

Belarus is already a land of freedom.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-36zz9A7taBI/VazspEgqTuI/AAAAAAABp3w/D-pCyEXSQ7U/s1600/2015-07-20-13-34-35--666021047.jpeg

[Polak]

Lol, my family doesn't speak Belarusian either, just Russki.

[Ülev]

Натхненне: беларускамоўны інстаграм журналісткі Настассі Пілюгінай
https://nina.nn.by/?c=ar&i=198475&lang=be

[ЛыSSый]

Натхненне: беларускамоўны інстаграм журналісткі Настассі Пілюгінай
https://nina.nn.by/?c=ar&i=198475&lang=be

Tnx, Vaasiliy, but pay your attention that she has russian mane and surname and even speaks on "belarussian" with a lot of russian words.
It's like rethel and magnolia cases but more hillarious


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78aJbvvinZQ

[ЛыSSый]

https://cs6.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2017/10/06/12/1507323197168446542.jpg

[Óttar]

My great grand mother was born near Brest Litovsk in the late 19th century, she considered herself Russian and only spoke Russian but didn't have a Russian family name (I guess it could have been a Belarussian name).
I don't have answer for this, perhaps because it was a very small ethnicity close to a bigger and quite close other they lost their language and a part of their culture.
I suspect it is a manifestation of dialect-leveling. The Irish people's general lack of proficiency in Gaelic is actually disheartening because it had a respected literary tradition and Gaelic is quite distinct from English. Belarussian on the other hand, has a close proximity to Russian.

[Ülev]

Bosnians can speak belarusian

https://nn.by/?c=ar&i=221910

https://youtu.be/5qs9kHvG-64

[Ülev]

Belarusian language will survive.... in Poland

https://youtu.be/7u5ceKwRO9Q

[Ülev]

Lukashenko speaks Belarusian!!!


https://youtu.be/w50kXWUxNe8

https://belaruspartisan.by/politic/451100/

[Saskatchewanderer]

It's a shame. Belarusian is an awesome-sounding language in my opinion.

[Roy]

Belarussian is mostly spoken & teached in ... Poland nowadays.

Even the only TV channel regularly broadcasting in Belarussian language has its headquarters in Poland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belsat_TV

[Roy]

It's a shame. Belarusian is an awesome-sounding language in my opinion.

Yes it is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElqbLPcTHAI

[Ülev]

news in Belorussian language:

https://youtu.be/eCWgjVtAKjw

[Ülev]

Renovated Slonim celebrated Belarusian Writing Day


https://youtu.be/xIFCdJd93-k

[Ülev]

^^
Нацыянальную літаратурную прэмію ўручылі ў Слоніме
Чытаць цалкам: https://blr.belta.by/culture/view/natsyjanalnuju-litaraturnuju-premiju-uruchyli-u-slonime-80900-2019/
Пры любым выкарыстанні матэрыялаў актыўная гіперспасылка на blr.belta.by абавязковая

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/6Q65Wif95BE

from here:

http://www.slonves.by/2019/07/bolshoj-prazdnik-rodnogo-slova-kak-preobrazhaetsja-slonim-v-preddverii-dnja-belorusskoj-pismennosti/

[Ülev]

http://www.slonim.grodno-region.by/by/slonim-news-by/view/50-000-gastsej-bolsh-za-200-zhurnalistau-i-kalejdaskop-padzej-u-slonime-adgrymeu-dzen-belaruskaga-12317-2019/
50 000 гасцей, больш за 200 журналістаў і калейдаскоп падзей. У Слоніме адгрымеў Дзень беларускага пісьменства

[Duffmannn]

Why irish don´t speak gaelic?

[Ülev]

btw, what a beautiful woman


https://youtu.be/7oBjG4bqOxs

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/-DEBegRffz8

[Ülev]

Загадкі беларускай гісторыі

https://youtu.be/Vu7cRmXvbUk

[Ülev]

Лукашенко вручил Матвиенко орден Франциска Скорины, подарил икону и книгу "Смак беларускай кухнi"

https://www.belta.by/president/view/lukashenko-vruchil-matvienko-orden-frantsiska-skoriny-382231-2020/

[Rumata]

I have a better question: why Sundqvist being a said Polish citizen doesn't speak Polish here? I've seen his multiple attempts to speak Russian but why he avoids the language of his Fatherland motherland? :confused:

[Ülev]

I have a better question: why Sundqvist being a said Polish citizen doesn't speak Polish here? I've seen his multiple attempts to speak Russian but why he avoids the language of his Fatherland motherland? :confused:

I am Vlach

[Rumata]

I am Vlach

You're not.
And playing stupid is your typical reaction when you feel uncomfortably.

[Ülev]

You're not.
And playing stupid is your typical reaction when you feel uncomfortably.
Mulțumesc
I am not here:

German-dutch TA Team:

https://i.imgur.com/rPvSv5S.jpg

but accepted here:


Eu sunt de acord cu tine, eu fac bine :p
da, vorbesc putin Romaneste


you're the only one who qualifies here :))


and not accepted by all kind of Soviets k sozhalenyu :rolleyes:

[pulstar]

^ You're honorary Belarussian

[Rumata]

Sundqvist have the commies nationalised your family manor somewhere in western Belarus, by any chance?

How comes you speak Romanian? Is it Google translator?

[Ülev]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzKrAcUGNwkSMOhLgNuQAwg - she taught me Romanian lang., no one of my ancestors crossed ever eastern border of Warta river, but you see - some people like language diversity rather than Russification

[Aspirin]

Very simple, is the effect of russification. For some reason Belarussians were more weaker and passive to preserve their language compared to Ukrainians, a big chunk of Ukrainians still speak pure Ukrainian language, especially these from former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth territories in the Western side of Ukraine.

[Satem]

I have a better question: why Sundqvist being a said Polish citizen doesn't speak Polish here? I've seen his multiple attempts to speak Russian but why he avoids the language of his Fatherland motherland? :confused:

It is super easy. You wouldn't understand a word of what is he saying. And I have question why most of Russians living in Baltic States as citizens of those countries are not able to speak Latvian/Lithuanian/Estonian?

[ixulescu]

Very simple, is the effect of russification. For some reason Belarussians were more weaker and passive to preserve their language compared to Ukrainians, a big chunk of Ukrainians still speak pure Ukrainian language, especially these from former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth territories in the Western side of Ukraine.

Nurzat was commenting that even Western Ukrainians speak with a Russian accent.

But maybe I'm not quoting him right, it was quite a while ago.

[Ülev]

He has his own agenda

[Aspirin]

Nurzat was commenting that even Western Ukrainians speak with a Russian accent.

But maybe I'm not quoting him right, it was quite a while ago.

No, in Western Ukraine exist local diversity in the language.

[Arsen_]

Last month, such a real story happened in Minsk, in the capital of Belarus.

Young Armenian guy in some shop in Minsk asked for tea in Belarusian language and he was declared an enemy of Russia. :lol:

The shop's saleswoman when heard him asking for fruit tea in Belarusian language at first demanded: "Speak Russian". But Armenian guy continued to speak Belarusian, politely addressing the saleswoman and just asking for some tea. The saleswoman started to threat him that she would call security to take him out. This happened in the shop of the confectionery candy factory Kommunarka in the city Minsk, in the capital of Belarus. After the story became known in Facebook, the Russian media pointedly presented the incident as an example of oppression of the Russian language in Belarus! Poor Armenian guy received hundreds of threats and insults in comments and private messages including threats like: “We will find you, we will kill you”.

Are you still wondering why Belarusians don't speak their own language? ;)

[Rumata]

Mulțumesc
I am not here:
Even if Germans don't accept you, still you can be a Vandal (your former nickname) wannabe.


and not accepted by all kind of Soviets k sozhalenyu :rolleyes:
It's because of your obsessive years old anti-Soviet trolling. Yes it is there.

[Rumata]

It is super easy. You wouldn't understand a word of what is he saying.
To nie prawda :nod:
And of course many Poles would understand it perfectly.


And I have question why most of Russians living in Baltic States as citizens of those countries are not able to speak Latvian/Lithuanian/Estonian?
I don't know. I have a guess it might be because of the imperial complex, like it is the case with the English for example.

[Art23]

I am sorry for Belarusians. Soviets have stolen their history, culture, language and identity. They have become people without memory. There are some trying to revive the Belarusian identity, but they are fighting an impossible fight against the Russian expansion.

[Ülev]

Even if Germans don't accept you, still you can be a Vandal (your former nickname) wannabe.


It's because of your obsessive years old anti-Soviet trolling. Yes it is there.

please become Anti-Soviet too - it's healthy

[Ülev]

Even if Germans don't accept you, still you can be a Vandal (your former nickname) wannabe.


It's because of your obsessive years old anti-Soviet trolling. Yes it is there.

Selektywnie patrząc przez pryzmat suchej oceny stwierdzam iż twoja ewidentna indolencja intelektualna nie obliguje mnie do kontynuowania merytorycznej konwersacji z tobą na płaszczyżnie inter-personalnej.

[Rumata]

Selektywnie patrząc przez pryzmat suchej oceny stwierdzam iż twoja ewidentna indolencja intelektualna nie obliguje mnie do kontynuowania merytorycznej konwersacji z tobą na płaszczyżnie inter-personalnej.

Полностью солидарен.

[Rumata]

please become Anti-Soviet too - it's healthy

What is your proof?

https://s.fishki.net/upload/users/2019/03/26/1466811/703bfcbb4e124941ec2d0290ae3f493d.jpg

[Ülev]

What is your proof?

AzEPZsRbOZEKgBhR0XGMT1Rkxk5PfnEks3BslecV_GyrP6aKTM 5SRkZCeTgDn6uOyic

anti-Soviets spread coronavirus: Большинство заразившихся коронавирусом россиян привезли заразу из Италии: https://www.mk.ru/politics/2020/03/08/bolshinstvo-zarazivshikhsya-koronavirusom-rossiyan-privezli-zarazu-iz-italii.html