This Admixture Analysis Shows Italians Are 38% West Asian, Tuscans at 42%

[MagnusAurelius]

French are 26%, British are 18% yet Italians are over 30%. How is this possible? Not many Italians even resemble Middle Eastern people, I would say only about 15% of Italy maximum could actually pass for Middle Eastern looking yet this analysis says they are over 30% West Asian.

http://www.harappadna.org/2011/04/reference-3-admixture-k11/

[Petalpusher]

"Italians" are N.Italians. Central and South Italians would be way past 50% SW Asian (roughly East med + west asian + Red sea/South Asian)

[revealman]

French are 26%, British are 18% yet Italians are over 30%. How is this possible? Not many Italians even resemble Middle Eastern people, I would say only about 15% of Italy maximum could actually pass for Middle Eastern looking yet this analysis says they are over 30% West Asian.

http://www.harappadna.org/2011/04/reference-3-admixture-k11/
thats because originally rome was founded by people from middle east, the original romans were haplogroup J
the phoenicians sailed from byblos to carthage and others settled in south italy, the original greeks were also predominately haplogroup J

as germanic and celtic people invaded rome the percentage of haplogroup R got stronger, but those people were not able anymore to rebuild the ancient roman architecture cause they were not the original builders of it

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28988-Haplogroup-J2-Romans-Christianity-and-Viticulture
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29476-Haplogroup-J2-Greeks-Phoenicians-and-Mesopotamians

an average lebanese man looks exactly like an average italian, cause sailor from ancient lebanon founded athens, venice and rome
https://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/averagelebaneseman.jpg?w=490

typical roman woman
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/156637451-young-italian-woman-with-long-black-curly-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GRMa6HFqfqp45%2bmt4I9f%2bY8S3E6wPVmd4nNXKMuknpYS y160wpk5s1L1er%2bcsB9S1BI5kVXazeUbqwNnLVSOXw%3d%3d

looks exactly like a greek or lebanese cause romans were of the same haplogroup!

[MagnusAurelius]

thats because originally rome was founded by people from middle east, the original romans were haplogroup J
the phoenicians sailed from byblos to carthage and others settled in south italy, the original greeks were also predominately haplogroup J

as germanic and celtic people invaded rome the percentage of haplogroup R got stronger, but those people were not able anymore to rebuild the ancient roman architecture cause they were not the original builders of it

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28988-Haplogroup-J2-Romans-Christianity-and-Viticulture
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29476-Haplogroup-J2-Greeks-Phoenicians-and-Mesopotamians

an average lebanese man looks exactly like an average italian, cause sailor from ancient lebanon founded athens, venice and rome
https://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/averagelebaneseman.jpg?w=490

typical roman woman
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/156637451-young-italian-woman-with-long-black-curly-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GRMa6HFqfqp45%2bmt4I9f%2bY8S3E6wPVmd4nNXKMuknpYS y160wpk5s1L1er%2bcsB9S1BI5kVXazeUbqwNnLVSOXw%3d%3d

looks exactly like a greek or lebanese cause romans were of the same haplogroup!

That is not true at all, the R1B did not increase because of Celtic/Germanic invasions.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28953-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe

If this admixture analysis is even true then it is because Italy had a much larger presence of indigenous Europeans who descend from Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers.

[Sikeliot]

If Tuscans get 42% imagine what Sicilians, Campanians and Calabrese would get. Well over 50% because they are mostly descended from Neolithic West Asian farmers, and frankly it does show in their appearance. "Italian" there means North Italians.

[wvwvw]

French are 26%, British are 18% yet Italians are over 30%. How is this possible? Not many Italians even resemble Middle Eastern people, I would say only about 15% of Italy maximum could actually pass for Middle Eastern looking yet this analysis says they are over 30% West Asian.

http://www.harappadna.org/2011/04/reference-3-admixture-k11/

They don't look Middle Eastern because the West Asian doesn't make you look Middle Eastern, the South West Asian does. In fact the West Asian conmponent is closer to North European than the Mediterranean. So it doesn't make you darker.

The West Asian component makes you look more like Georgians and other Caucasus people.

But Italians don't have the other components that Georgians or Middle Eastern people have so they look distinct from both. They just look..Italian.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

If Tuscans get 42% imagine what Sicilians, Campanians and Calabrese would get. Well over 50% because they are mostly descended from Neolithic West Asian farmers, and frankly it does show in their appearance. "Italian" there means North Italians.

Yes.

[MagnusAurelius]

If Tuscans get 42% imagine what Sicilians, Campanians and Calabrese would get. Well over 50% because they are mostly descended from Neolithic West Asian farmers, and frankly it does show in their appearance. "Italian" there means North Italians.

So my Calabrian Father is really 50% Middle Eastern then? One side of his family is darker and some could pass for Middle Eastern but his mothers side is mostly fair skinned with more light eyes and some with light hair, that side must be the Indo-European side. I doubt it is well over 50%, Sardinians there are 50% West Asian so I highly doubt South Italians would be more.

Why do Italians have such low MiddleEastern/NorthAfrican ancestry with 23andme results then? How do you explain that?

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/41342-Italian-Sicilian-and-Greek-23andme-results!

Still, there is this post from this thread. "I have been saying this for years now. The "Italian" cluster hides a lot of Middle Eastern, not only for non-Italian groups but for Italians themselves."

I also do not agree, most South Italians do not even resemble Middle Eastern people, perhaps it depends where in Southern Italy, maybe Calabrians resemble them more. Perhaps 30-35% of Calabrians can pass as Middle Eastern looking but South Italy overall, I would say 25% maximum can actually pass as Middle Eastern looking, a comparison here with Sicilian crowds.

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/11411156_1049908065041823_7083252761889353938_o.jp g

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-01_6aw_LuwM/TxoYL9GKSPI/AAAAAAAABqM/UiOcoRn1K7U/s1600/sicily3.jpeg

https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/02/05/Foreign/Images/2013-02-01T154004Z_01_BAG12_RTRIDSP_3_IRAQ-PROTESTS.jpg?uuid=8ojkcm80EeKsNj2Nncqi4g

The Iraqi's are clearly different Caucasian racial types. The reason why South Italians may not resemble Middle Eastern people is due to their 50% MENA / 50% European ancestry and this combination has created a people who look distinct.

[Petalpusher]

So my Calabrian Father is really 50% Middle Eastern then? One side of his family is darker and some could pass for Middle Eastern but his mothers side is mostly fair skinned with more light eyes and some with light hair, that side must be the Indo-European side. I doubt it is well over 50%, Sardinians there are 50% West Asian so I highly doubt South Italians would be more.

Why do Italians have such low MiddleEastern/NorthAfrican ancestry with 23andme results then? How do you explain that?

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/41342-Italian-Sicilian-and-Greek-23andme-results!


Italian's 23andme cluster integrates approximatively 20-25% East-med. If you score 100% Italian you would have around 20% EastMed alone in the reference autosomals like K13 for example.

What 23 shows in the AC is the excess of MENA starting from there. Of course if you don't score 100% Italian or low, the calculation is different but that's the overall idea. It's the same for East Asian and Scandinavian or Eastern, most don't show some excess of it on 23 because a little bit is integrated on average in the region so it's also in there. Every cluster is like this and it makes sense. They are not gonna tell you that you are 100% Italian and add again to you 25% MENA (would be more ME than NA obviously), they just assume it's what makes genetically Italians as a nation, on average and put the cursor where you are compared to that model on average.

Anyway the middle Eastern you are talking about is thousands years old, it changed in appearance overtime (and it was not exactly the same as today on top of it), mixing and diverse forms of selection so it cannot look the same but can ressemble it for the most East med/West Asian shifted in the South.

Sardinians have almost no West Asian (0,xx) but the same 20% Eastmed as a N.Italian and a lot of Westmed which you can see as an even older and altered type of neolithic component, and that every Euro has it, except maybe a few very NorthEast Finns, even a Norwegian has 10% of it.

[MagnusAurelius]

That admixture analysis says Sardinians are 50% West Asian though, are you saying that is really an Ancient Middle Eastern Neolithic comoponent?

[Petalpusher]

That admixture analysis says Sardinians are 50% West Asian though, are you saying that is really an Ancient Middle Eastern Neolithic comoponent?

Because that study is a bit old, it's not the most comprehensive one to understand all this, they put every type of neolithic like stuff in the same category, it's correct in some way but needs more nuances. As usual it's important to figure what exactly is the labelling. Check these averages and you ll get a better idea :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oz6P5-SVEJciPX1TciGe-zoqA5JtOGIMG7nh-rCOj0c/edit#gid=804264822

[Journeyman26]

That seems a bit high for Tuscans. The Genographic project uses a reference number of 17% SW Asian for Tuscans. Only Iranians score ~42% SW Asian.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=59896&d=1439127122

[Petalpusher]

That seems a bit high for Tuscans. The Genographic project uses a reference number of 17% SW Asian for Tuscans. Only Iranians score ~42% SW Asian.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=59896&d=1439127122

Labelling bottleneck again, the Harappa SW Asian tries to put everything neo in it not just the SW Asian we are used to in some calculator (or Geno that shows higher med on the other hand). It's a similar thing into the new K8, a different choice and trade off. No matter the labelling, the scale stay the same in every calc with enough breakdown between population. Geno's med is most likely Westmed+Eastmed

[Journeyman26]

Labelling bottleneck again, the Harappa SW Asian tries to put everything neo in it not just the SW Asian we are used to in some calculator (or Geno that shows higher med on the other hand). It's a similar thing into the new K8, a different choice and trade off. No matter the labelling, the scale stay the same in every calc with enough breakdown between population.

Fair enough

Harappa

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 32.37
2 Mediterranean 26.89
3 NE-Euro 24.08
4 SW-Asian 8.75
5 Baloch 7.33

Looks like SW- Asian and Baloch are combined in Geno... as well as Caucasian and Med?

[wvwvw]

The West Asian is closer to North European than the Med component, so it can't possibly swarthify you more

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Xal68HraeTs/UJBfD1d2CoI/AAAAAAAAAzU/yvTVW2WNvLQ/s1600/1_2.png

[Petalpusher]

Fair enough

Harappa

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 32.37
2 Mediterranean 26.89
3 NE-Euro 24.08
4 SW-Asian 8.75
5 Baloch 7.33

Looks like SW- Asian and Baloch are combined in Geno... as well as Caucasian and Med?

Yes probably, they use their own calc but they read the same datas. You can tell on Harappa Caucasian is not only Caucasus either, i bet you get half this on K13 at the West Asian.

So it's important to have the same references when talking about components. To me K13 is the most comprehensive and you see right away the difference between countries.

[wvwvw]

That admixture analysis says Sardinians are 50% West Asian though, are you saying that is really an Ancient Middle Eastern Neolithic comoponent?

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Sardinian_575.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d8DHHETGFBM/UM_z4ltxJLI/AAAAAAAADCg/S743mw2BpKQ/s1600/NGmed.tiff

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BoKEVdBN0Z0/UM_z_7rmWMI/AAAAAAAADCo/eNcAlOiT8PU/s1600/NGSWAsian.tiff

[Petalpusher]

The West Asian is closer to North European than the Med component, so it can't possibly swarthify you more

Of course because your "Med component" is also Eastmed, red sea and whatnot.. it's not a question of "swarthying" things but what is in every population deep down (which was the subject)

[Journeyman26]

Yes probably, they use their own calc but they read the same datas. You can tell on Harappa Caucasian is not only Caucasus either, i bet you get half this on K13 at the West Asian.

So it's important to have the same references when talking about components. To me K13 is the most comprehensive and you see right away the difference between countries.

Well it did go down.

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.77
2 West_Med 21.19
3 North_Atlantic 20.96
4 Baltic 13.63
5 West_Asian 12.90
6 Red_Sea 3.26

[Sikeliot]

I also do not agree, most South Italians do not even resemble Middle Eastern people, perhaps it depends where in Southern Italy, maybe Calabrians resemble them more. Perhaps 30-35% of Calabrians can pass as Middle Eastern looking but South Italy overall, I would say 25% maximum can actually pass as Middle Eastern looking, a comparison here with Sicilian crowds.

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/11411156_1049908065041823_7083252761889353938_o.jp g

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-01_6aw_LuwM/TxoYL9GKSPI/AAAAAAAABqM/UiOcoRn1K7U/s1600/sicily3.jpeg

https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/02/05/Foreign/Images/2013-02-01T154004Z_01_BAG12_RTRIDSP_3_IRAQ-PROTESTS.jpg?uuid=8ojkcm80EeKsNj2Nncqi4g

The Iraqi's are clearly different Caucasian racial types. The reason why South Italians may not resemble Middle Eastern people is due to their 50% MENA / 50% European ancestry and this combination has created a people who look distinct.


I agree with you those Sicilians in the first photo do not look Iraqi, but on an individual level (maybe not as a group) most if not all of them could pass in Turkey, Israel, and possibly even Lebanon.

As for your Calabrese father, based on what I can determine from their position on PCA plots and on Oracle on GEDmatch, far southern Italians (with the exception of Apulians who seem shifted toward mainland Greece and Albania), are roughly halfway intermediate genetically between Spaniards/North Italians and Lebanese people. The same is true of Ashkenazi Jews, who have a very similar genetic profile to Sicilians even though neither group is directly descended from the other. Given that we are talking genetic components here and not recent ancestry, I would not say this makes us "half Middle Eastern" but that Sicilians and other southern Italians are halfway between SW Europe and the Levant genetically.

[Sikeliot]

The West Asian is closer to North European than the Med component, so it can't possibly swarthify you more

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Xal68HraeTs/UJBfD1d2CoI/AAAAAAAAAzU/yvTVW2WNvLQ/s1600/1_2.png

"Caucasus" component makes people's features pointy (Taurid influence, Dinarid/Armenoid/Mtebid etc), not swarthy. SW Asian, Mediterranean and NW African make you dark.

[wvwvw]

Other reference populations:

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Lebanese_5751.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Egyptian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Georgian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Iberian_575.png

[sql]

looks exactly like a greek or lebanese cause romans were of the same haplogroup!

Haplogroup has nothing to do with phenotype. I can't even pass in the country where my haplogroup peaks.

[Sikeliot]

Haplogroup has nothing to do with phenotype. I can't even pass in the country where my haplogroup peaks.

I can, though :lol: And I am not J2. I thought I would be since in my ancestral region in Sicily, J2 is the most common haplogroup.

[wvwvw]

I can, though :lol: And I am not J2. I thought I would be since in my ancestral region in Sicily, J2 is the most common haplogroup.

J2 is common in Balkans though, it is J1 that is common in the Levant

[sql]

Greeks and Italians are nearly the same genetically, so I thought I'd post my Geno 2.0 admixture results in comparison to my Greek reference population.

http://i.imgur.com/wNdbWY6.png

How come I score more SW Asian than Greeks? I assume Jews have much more Mesopotamian blood.

[Sikeliot]

Greeks and Italians are nearly the same genetically, so I thought I'd post my Geno 2.0 admixture results in comparison to my Greek reference population.

http://i.imgur.com/wNdbWY6.png

How come I score more SW Asian than Greeks? I assume Jews have much more Mesopotamian blood.


The Greek sample scored the same amount as what Tuscans did. I would be very curious to see a Sicilian's score for this. Since I'd expect Sicilians to be closer to Ashkenazis than to that Greek sample, I suspect a full Ashkenazi or full Sicilian would score higher SW Asian than you did, probably close to 23-25%.

[sql]

The Greek sample scored the same amount as what Tuscans did. I would be very curious to see a Sicilian's score for this. Since I'd expect Sicilians to be closer to Ashkenazis than to that Greek sample, I suspect a full Ashkenazi or full Sicilian would score higher SW Asian than you did, probably close to 23-25%.

I wonder what a full AJ's reference populations would be. I got Greek and British. I imagine a pure AJ would get Greek and Lebanese.

[Petalpusher]

Well it did go down.

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.77
2 West_Med 21.19
3 North_Atlantic 20.96
4 Baltic 13.63
5 West_Asian 12.90
6 Red_Sea 3.26

Another illustration of the labelling bias. Imo ^ this, is more descriptive. With this, i know right away you are Italian and in the Northern half. With Geno or Harrapa, i have little clues.


Other reference populations:

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Lebanese_5751.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Egyptian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Georgian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Iberian_575.png

I don't know exactly what you trying to prove with this, but it shows exactly what we are talking about. If you don't breakdown things, then you just end up with nearly the same amount of """MED""" than a lebanese and it obviously doesn't describe reality well enough. There s too much things in their "mediterranean" cluster but this is for the mainstream public, if you show people real genetic componenents instead of broad concepts like Med, then no one is gonna understand anything of their results (it would need a lot of explanation on ethno genesis). We have better autosomals to go deeper. Geno, ancestry, ftdna would just be terrible calculators on gedmatch, very simple ones at least.

[wvwvw]

Genographic says that the SW Asian spread from the Eastern Part of the Fertile Crescent. But I am not sure how they calculate it.

[Sikeliot]

I wonder what a full AJ's reference populations would be. I got Greek and British. I imagine a pure AJ would get Greek and Lebanese.

Pure AJs score like Sicilians -- half Spain or North Italy, half Lebanon.

[wvwvw]

I don't know exactly what you trying to prove with this, but it shows exactly what we are talking about. If you don't breakdown things, then you just end up with nearly the same amount of """MED""" than a lebanese and it obviously doesn't describe reality well enough. There s too much things in their "mediterranean" cluster but this is for the mainstream public, if you show people real genetic componenents instead of broad concepts like Med, then no one is gonna understand anything of their results (it would need a lot of explanation on ethno genesis). We have better autosomals to go deeper. Geno, ancestry, ftdna would just be terrible calculators on gedmatch, very simple ones at least.

I posted this for Journeyman and Marcus Aurelius, to show them that the West Asian alone does not make you look Middle Eastern and posted these reference populations to show him how little Northern European the Georgians had, and how high 'Med' the Egyptians or the Lebanese had.

[wvwvw]

Pure AJs score like Sicilians -- half Spain or North Italy, half Lebanon.

He would probably come out as Northern Italian or Serb, Mark came out as Greek islander, other Askenazi Jews come out as Tuscans so who knows.

[wvwvw]

The Greek sample scored the same amount as what Tuscans did. I would be very curious to see a Sicilian's score for this. Since I'd expect Sicilians to be closer to Ashkenazis than to that Greek sample, I suspect a full Ashkenazi or full Sicilian would score higher SW Asian than you did, probably close to 23-25%.

The average Greek sample is between Tuscans and Sicilians

[Petalpusher]

I posted this for Journeyman and Marcus Aurelius, to show them that the West Asian alone does not make you look Middle Eastern and posted these reference populations to show him how little Northern European the Georgians had, and how high 'Med' the Egyptians or the Lebanese had.

Maybe it doesn't, but the west asian comes with the East med usually, contrary to the West med that can be almost totally without West Asian in Europe (Basques, Sardinians, Spain to some extent...) It's a bit like the North Sea and the Baltic maybe for the North. You ll never find much more than 10% West Asian in Europe elsewhere than in Italy and the most East med influences countries where it can reach 15-20-25%. Not even in Bulgaria or Romania, the vast majority of Europe is under 7/8% West asian and doesn't vary much, so it's is really a closely tied component with East med, in Europe at least.

[wvwvw]

You ll never find much more than 10% West Asian in Europe elsewhere than in Italy and the most East med influences countries where it can reach 15-20-25%.

You find it in S.Italians, Greeks and Albanians, and even then the West Asian is higher than the East Med. Bulgarians are largely Slavic.


contrary to the West med that can be almost totally without West Asian in

The West Asian is closer to the Northern European component though, so that component alone can't make S.Italians, Greeks or Albanians look Middle Eastern.

[Petalpusher]

The West Asian is closer to the Northern European component though, so that component alone can't make S.Italians/Greeks and Albanians look Middle Eastern.

What i said earlier, on your chart, "mediterranean" is not West Med, it's West med + East med + god knows what, so of course if it's 40 west med + 40 east med + 10 NW Africa/SSA + others like an intermediate of everything around the mediterranean sea, you are much closer to N.Europe with a caucasian population that would be largely West Asian. Again that's why we want to discriminate things much further than just Med

[MagnusAurelius]

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Sardinian_575.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d8DHHETGFBM/UM_z4ltxJLI/AAAAAAAADCg/S743mw2BpKQ/s1600/NGmed.tiff

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BoKEVdBN0Z0/UM_z_7rmWMI/AAAAAAAADCo/eNcAlOiT8PU/s1600/NGSWAsian.tiff

This Geographic project has some horrible classifications, Sardinians are among the most isolated populations in Europe, they hardly mixed with any outsiders yet they some how score 24% Nothern European? This site is totally wrong.

[wvwvw]

What i said earlier, on your chart, "mediterranean" is not West Med, it's West med + East med + god knows what, so of course if it's 40 west med + 40 east med + 10 NW Africa/SSA + others like an intermediate of everything around the mediterranean sea, you are much closer to N.Europe with a caucasian population that would be largely West Asian. Again that's why we want to discriminate things much further than just Med

Thanks I know that! ;) That is why I posted the components map too, to show them that the Genographic's Mediterranean component encompasses both West Med and East Med and the "West Asian" encompasses also South Asian.

That doesn't change the fact that the West Med and East Med components are connected to each other. Just like the West Asian is connected to Northern European. The Moroccans f.ex have a lot of West Med, while the Lebanese more East Med. The S.E Europeans share the West Asian component with Caucasians, but Caucasians don't share much of the Northern component with Northern Europeans.

[Petalpusher]

This Geographic project has some horrible classifications, Sardinians are among the most isolated populations in Europe, they hardly mixed with any outsiders yet they some how score 24% Nothern European? This site is totally wrong.

Much more ancient admixture with indigenous Euro. I suspect Geno just use a very dumbed down version of K13 or similar because guess what, Sardinians on K13 are 22.5 N.Atlantic + 1.5 Baltic = 24 North European on Geno... and 52% WestMed + 22% East med, nearly exactly the same than their Med + SW Asian on geno again. That's how lazy theses AC composition are. The more i see them the more i believe they just use their own offline eurogenes and mdlp and pack everything in big clusters.

23andme at least try to make AC with real countries or just a bit larger clusters. They are in another league though when it comes to ressources, it's like comparing amazon with your local store.

[wvwvw]

This Geographic project has some horrible classifications, Sardinians are among the most isolated populations in Europe, they hardly mixed with any outsiders yet they some how score 24% Nothern European? This site is totally wrong.

You just don't know how to read it. You just can't mix the results from different calculators and expect to make sense.

[Petalpusher]

Thanks I know that! ;) That is why I posted the components map too, to show them that the Genographic's Mediterranean component encompasses both West Med and East Med and the "West Asian" encompasses also South Asian.

That doesn't change the fact that the West Med and East Med components are connected to each other. Just like the West Asian is connected to Northern European. The Moroccans f.ex have a lot of West Med, while the Lebanese more East Med. The S.E Europeans share the West Asian component with Caucasians, but Caucasians don't share much of the Northern component with Northern Europeans.

You have an exception, the Basques : 35% West med and 3% east med (that's less than a North German or even a Danish). Also a crazy +50 N.Atlantic for South Europe, Swedes don't get that much) so the population who brought the West med were very different from the East med. You can see that in ancient genomes as well like Gokhem who would be Sardinian-Basque today and had almost no East med (4%) but 50% West med.

Moroccans are leaning more to East med as well (even them) they are 25 Westmed / 25 Eastmed but with a whopping 18% Red sea. Basques have no Red sea at all, Sardinians 1-2% because they have east med (N.italian level)...which shows again perfectly where it comes from ancestrally. The ones in Europe with the highest Red sea are South Italians, Cyprian,...

[wvwvw]

They must have gotten it from Egyptians. Iberians too score a little bit African.

[Harkonnen]

The West Asian is closer to North European than the Med component, so it can't possibly swarthify you more

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Xal68HraeTs/UJBfD1d2CoI/AAAAAAAAAzU/yvTVW2WNvLQ/s1600/1_2.png

No it is not. The West Asian is closest to the Med component. This picture is two dimensional simplification of reality; it is like throwing paint to a wall (instead of a wall of water).

It is global plot. There are two dimensions there (X,Y). The first is between mediterranean and arctic and the second between arctic and paleoafrican. The reason why north european and west asian appear similar in this plot is because, unlike the med (which is a neolithic/WHG mix) component, they are both mixed with ANE. The program makes a ad hoc decision to interpret this shared similarity between west asian, north european and east eurasia components as east eurasianity in NE and WE components. Remember the program has no reference points (ancients samples), probably the reason why it makes this decision is because unlike west eurasian components all of the east eurasian components have some ANE, and also because of the overall purer eurasianity of the east eurasian components.

You can also see there that the program, logically so (following it's first decision), then interprets the North Asian and American components as drifted East Asian components. The slight African shift of the East Asian component (contra rest of the East Eurasian components) is likely due to to the slight Australasianity of the East Asian component. The Australasian component contains Denisovan admix. Remember Denisovan is archaic hominid. All archaics are going to appear more similar to Africans due higher genetic variety of Africans. Eurasians lost of most of their genetic variety in various bottlenecks. This is all bluff ofc. In reality Denisovan is not genetically more similar to Africans, the Eurasian drift just makes it appear so. But the program has to make some decision based on the limited information it has, and this is the decision it makes.

[Sikeliot]

The average Greek sample is between Tuscans and Sicilians

Yes, with northern mainlanders similar to Tuscans, islanders like Sicilians and everyone else fills the gap.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

It is what it is, Italians but more from the southern parts, Sicilians scores a higher West Asian admixture.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

thats because originally rome was founded by people from middle east, the original romans were haplogroup J
the phoenicians sailed from byblos to carthage and others settled in south italy, the original greeks were also predominately haplogroup J

as germanic and celtic people invaded rome the percentage of haplogroup R got stronger, but those people were not able anymore to rebuild the ancient roman architecture cause they were not the original builders of it

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28988-Haplogroup-J2-Romans-Christianity-and-Viticulture
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29476-Haplogroup-J2-Greeks-Phoenicians-and-Mesopotamians

an average lebanese man looks exactly like an average italian, cause sailor from ancient lebanon founded athens, venice and rome
https://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/averagelebaneseman.jpg?w=490

typical roman woman
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/156637451-young-italian-woman-with-long-black-curly-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GRMa6HFqfqp45%2bmt4I9f%2bY8S3E6wPVmd4nNXKMuknpYS y160wpk5s1L1er%2bcsB9S1BI5kVXazeUbqwNnLVSOXw%3d%3d

looks exactly like a greek or lebanese cause romans were of the same haplogroup!

Middle east my ass,busted crypto jew.

[MagnusAurelius]

Does anyone know exactly what they include in the West Asian category on Harrapa? The West Asian admixture for Europeans must be the Neolithic or Mesolithic farmers who came from the Middle East.

[MagnusAurelius]

I don't think the non-Indo European speakers who descended from Middle Eastern farmers looked significantly different than the Indo Europeans. I think they looked more like unmixed leventine people, the vast majority of Levantine people except for Lebanese are highly mixed with Arabs in the Middle East. The Indo Europeans were probably all fair-pale skinned and the Indigenous Europeans were mostly tan-light brown skinned, their facial features were probably similar due to being Caucasian but even more similar as the Indo European migraters due to being Mediterranean racial types so they were at least similar to the Greeks and Itallics. I think the migrating Indo European branch who were Italics were mostly Alpines and Dinarics, the indigenous natives of Italy were mostly Mediterranean types.

http://i.imgur.com/3vhRJJO.jpg


I think the indigenous people of Europe before the Indo Europeans were Baskids, East Med, Carpathid, Gorids, Berid, Gracile Med is a result of mixing between East Med and Pontid perhaps. Their most populous presence was in Southern Europe which is why Italy has 40-50% West Asian ancestry depending on the person while France is 26%, UK 18% and Germany is probably at 20-22%.

[Anglojew]

thats because originally rome was founded by people from middle east, the original romans were haplogroup J
the phoenicians sailed from byblos to carthage and others settled in south italy, the original greeks were also predominately haplogroup J

as germanic and celtic people invaded rome the percentage of haplogroup R got stronger, but those people were not able anymore to rebuild the ancient roman architecture cause they were not the original builders of it

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28988-Haplogroup-J2-Romans-Christianity-and-Viticulture
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29476-Haplogroup-J2-Greeks-Phoenicians-and-Mesopotamians

an average lebanese man looks exactly like an average italian, cause sailor from ancient lebanon founded athens, venice and rome
https://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/averagelebaneseman.jpg?w=490

typical roman woman
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/156637451-young-italian-woman-with-long-black-curly-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GRMa6HFqfqp45%2bmt4I9f%2bY8S3E6wPVmd4nNXKMuknpYS y160wpk5s1L1er%2bcsB9S1BI5kVXazeUbqwNnLVSOXw%3d%3d

looks exactly like a greek or lebanese cause romans were of the same haplogroup!

Venice was founded by Romans from nearby cities fleeing Germanic/Hunnic invasions. Rome was founded by Trojans.

[Kenshiro]

Fair enough

Harappa

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 32.37
2 Mediterranean 26.89
3 NE-Euro 24.08
4 SW-Asian 8.75
5 Baloch 7.33

Looks like SW- Asian and Baloch are combined in Geno... as well as Caucasian and Med?
Very similar to mine
Population Percent
1 Caucasian 33.14
2 Mediterranean 27.66
3 NE-Euro 21.18
4 Baloch 9.53
5 SW-Asian 5.91
But i'm from Apulia

[Kenshiro]

You have an exception, the Basques : 35% West med and 3% east med (that's less than a North German or even a Danish). Also a crazy +50 N.Atlantic for South Europe, Swedes don't get that much) so the population who brought the West med were very different from the East med. You can see that in ancient genomes as well like Gokhem who would be Sardinian-Basque today and had almost no East med (4%) but 50% West med.

Moroccans are leaning more to East med as well (even them) they are 25 Westmed / 25 Eastmed but with a whopping 18% Red sea. Basques have no Red sea at all, Sardinians 1-2% because they have east med (N.italian level)...which shows again perfectly where it comes from ancestrally. The ones in Europe with the highest Red sea are South Italians, Cyprian,...

Very cool, i'm south Italian but not have Red Sea, instead as a combination East med and West med I too get more or less 50%, 23% West Med 26% East med more or less on K13

[Lemminkäinen]

In my tests South Italians have 35.2% LBK_EN and 31.8% Near Eastern admixture. North Italians correspondingly 47.8% and 14% and Sicilians 28.8% and 43.1%. For comparison in Ireland numbers are 37.5% and 0%. The test was made using qpAdm to distinguish early European neolithic and later eastern migrations.