The Irish are a mix of?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I have asked questions about Irish genetics before, and I have a good idea of who they are closest to genetically, but that does not answer the question of where the Irish actually came from.

What are the Irish (native Irish Gaels I am referring to)? What is their ancestry like? Do they descend from Celts (I mean as language not an ethnic group) from modern-day France or Iberia that came to Ireland? And mixed with a native people? Or what?

I know the Normans came to Ireland, and there were also Vikings in Ireland even before that. But I am not referring to them, but the population before the Normans and before the Vikings.

Thank you, this should be interesting.

[Graham]

Bell Beaker shows the oldest autosomal similarity in Western Europe & the North West.

My bet is with the Beaker folks.

[Gooding]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/science/05cnd-brits.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog/post/Surprises_in_English_and_Irish_DNA/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA9uM_wRIvM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9U4uoifB5Q

[Dr. Klaus Klausofsten]

Piss and beer.

[Grace O'Malley]

Agree with Graham. Irish along with other North Western Europeans appear to be mostly descended from Bell Beakers that travelled up the Rhine and crossed over to Britain and then onto Ireland.

This was posted by Krefter on the Eurogenes Blog.

"But German Bell beaker is coming out as expected. Although there is some variation they're clustering right in the North Sea(inclu. Iron age Brits).

Avg. BBC: ANE: 15.5, SE: 1.1, ENF: 36.5, WHG: 44.8.

Iron age Brit: ANE: 15, ENF: 35.4, WHG: 48.5.

Modern Irish individual: ANE: 15.8, ENF: 38.4, WHG: 45.3.

There's no more debating about whether or not (IE?)eastern immigrants made a big impact on the British isles after the Neolithic. No SHG or EHG can explain Brits and Irish.

Think about it. Gok2-like people were probably living in Britain 5,000YBP, yet modern Brits resemble German Bell beakers, who were of mostly eastern decent.

We're talking about big-time re-population of the British isles somewhere between 5,000-2,000YBP. I'm not saying there were mass kill off, just one way or another the native pop left few genes.

Central European Bell beaker fits the profile of the immigrants who came to dominate the British gene pool. 3/3 have R1b so far and the only one tested for P312 was positive. L21 certainly could have existed in continental Beakers who then brought it to the Isles.

Irish might as well be Beaker folk."

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2015/03/bell-beaker-corded-ware-ehg-and-yamnaya.html

[Neon Knight]

Population origins are not a fixed thing and a question like this is only really answerable if you ask: "The Irish are a mix of what since [date]?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Origins
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3119310/How-white-Europeans-arrived-5-000-years-ago-Mass-migration-southern-Russia-brought-new-technology-dairy-farming-continent.html

Even if half the Bell Beakers had gone to Ireland from the continent and the other half stayed were they were, the two groups would not now be genetically identical. And we can ask what the BBs are a mix of . . . and the final answer is that the Irish are African emigrants with some Neanderthal admixture (like all Eurasians). From our present day perspective it makes more sense to say simply that they are descended from northern Celts. It's more meaningful to look at what the Irish are now and see how they relate to other populations, because the further back in time you go, the more different they were than what they are today so we just get different stages of proto-Irish.

Obviously, the same applies to any national group.

[Grace O'Malley]

Population origins are not a fixed thing and a question like this is only really answerable if you ask: "The Irish are a mix of what since [date]?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Origins
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3119310/How-white-Europeans-arrived-5-000-years-ago-Mass-migration-southern-Russia-brought-new-technology-dairy-farming-continent.html

Even if half the Bell Beakers had gone to Ireland from the continent and the other half stayed were they were, the two groups would not now be genetically identical. And we can ask what the BBs are a mix of . . . and the final answer is that the Irish are African emigrants with some Neanderthal admixture (like all Eurasians). From our present day perspective it makes more sense to say simply that they are descended from northern Celts. It's more meaningful to look at what the Irish are now and see how they relate to other populations, because the further back in time you go, the more different they were than what they are today so we just get different stages of proto-Irish.

Obviously, the same applies to any national group.

The results I posted are comparing the Iron Age Brit, Bell Beaker average and a modern Irish person. If you compare the Hinxton (Iron Age Brit sample) there doesn't appear to be great changes. There was apparently a population crash in Ireland at the end of the Neolithic so Bell Beaker made more inroads there.

"For example, in the Scottish study there were 305 dated site phases. Here there is an observable population boom around 5500 cal BP. In Ireland, with 1031 dated site phases, there is a similar population boom at around 5500 cal BP, followed by a trough around 5000 cal BP."

http://rmchapple.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/booms-and-busts-in-europes-earliest.html

Preliminary results from the Irish DNA Atlas should be released soon as well.

[Grace O'Malley]

It looks like there was lots of changes in populations.

"There is, however, a massive population spike with the arrival of Maritime Bell Beakers in Bohemia and Moravia. The population of Britain more than doubles and the population of Ireland nearly quadruples with the arrival of Beakers (1.0 paper). The population of the Czech Republic almost triples and quadruples at the end of the millennium."

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/neolithic-population-busts-study.html

"According to Professor Armit, social and economic stress is more likely to be the cause of the sudden and widespread fall in numbers. Communities producing bronze needed to trade over very large distances to obtain copper and tin. Control of these networks enabled the growth of complex, hierarchical societies dominated by a warrior elite. As iron production took over, these networks collapsed, leading to widespread conflict and social collapse. It may be these unstable social conditions, rather than climate change, that led to the population collapse at the end of the Bronze Age."

http://www.reportingclimatescience.com/news-stories/article/bronze-age-population-collapsed-before-climate-changed.html

Professor Jobling said: “The population expansion falls within the Bronze Age, which involved changes in burial practices, the spread of horse-riding and developments in weaponry. Dominant males linked with these cultures could be responsible for the Y chromosome patterns we see today.”

http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/press-releases/2015/may/most-european-men-descend-from-a-handful-of-bronze-age-forefathers

[Brianna]

alcoholics and comedians

[Desaix DeBurgh]

The irish are mostly a mix that yields a nation of potato peasants. That the pure Irish are potato peasants and the Germans are genetic turnip peasants may explain why these Catholic beasts intermarried in America at such a high rate. The only hope for such a peasant mix German/Irish blend is to mix back with the original British colonial stock to form something of the smelting of Celt/Saxon like in middle England with of course some French Norman for good leavening measure.

[Grace O'Malley]

The irish are mostly a mix that yields a nation of potato peasants. That the pure Irish are potato peasants and the Germans are genetic turnip peasants may explain why these Catholic beasts intermarried in America at such a high rate. The only hope for such a peasant mix German/Irish blend is to mix back with the original British colonial stock to form something of the smelting of Celt/Saxon like in middle England with of course some French Norman for good leavening measure.

Thanks for your words of wisdom to the thread.

[Brianna]

Thanks for your words of wisdom to the thread.

They sound more like words of whiskey.

[Petalpusher]

Population origins are not a fixed thing and a question like this is only really answerable if you ask: "The Irish are a mix of what since [date]?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Origins
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3119310/How-white-Europeans-arrived-5-000-years-ago-Mass-migration-southern-Russia-brought-new-technology-dairy-farming-continent.html

Even if half the Bell Beakers had gone to Ireland from the continent and the other half stayed were they were, the two groups would not now be genetically identical. And we can ask what the BBs are a mix of . . . and the final answer is that the Irish are African emigrants with some Neanderthal admixture (like all Eurasians). From our present day perspective it makes more sense to say simply that they are descended from northern Celts. It's more meaningful to look at what the Irish are now and see how they relate to other populations, because the further back in time you go, the more different they were than what they are today so we just get different stages of proto-Irish.

Obviously, the same applies to any national group.

It's the only thing that make sense when trying to understand what a population is made of ancestrally, ancient cultures (and ancient genomes). McCool still have hard time to get that, dating things is as important as placing it on a map or give it a nationality name, that didn't exist back then.
In the end similarities with present pop is what really matters.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

The irish are mostly a mix that yields a nation of potato peasants. That the pure Irish are potato peasants and the Germans are genetic turnip peasants may explain why these Catholic beasts intermarried in America at such a high rate. The only hope for such a peasant mix German/Irish blend is to mix back with the original British colonial stock to form something of the smelting of Celt/Saxon like in middle England with of course some French Norman for good leavening measure.

lol.

Fuck OFF.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

It's the only thing that make sense when trying to understand what a population is made of ancestrally, ancient cultures (and ancient genomes). McCool still have hard time to get that, dating things is as important as placing it on a map or give it a nationality name, that didn't exist back then.
In the end similarities with present pop is what really matters.

So, I see now.

And from what I remember I learned before, the Irish are closest to the British, correct?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

It's the only thing that make sense when trying to understand what a population is made of ancestrally, ancient cultures (and ancient genomes). McCool still have hard time to get that, dating things is as important as placing it on a map or give it a nationality name, that didn't exist back then.
In the end similarities with present pop is what really matters.

After the British comes??? West Germans??? Aren't they close to the North Dutch for some reason, too? I get North_Dutch the most on GEDmatch right after North_German.

Could you give me chart or something, of what typical Irish person gets on Eurogenes or something? I am sure I have seen something like that before, but I can't remember now, and that might help me..

[sql]

If this helps at all, here are my grandmother (3/4 Irish 1/4 Scottish)'s k7 results:

Population
ANE 16.77%
ASE 2.18%
WHG-UHG 65.43%
East_Eurasian 0.20%
West_African 0.36%
East_African 0.24%
ENF 14.83%

[Petalpusher]

I must confess i laughed.


So, I see now.

And from what I remember I learned before, the Irish are closest to the British, correct?

With a slight North shift, compared to Brits as a whole but yea basically the same genetically.

[Petalpusher]

After the British comes??? West Germans??? Aren't they close to the North Dutch for some reason, too? I get North_Dutch the most on GEDmatch right after North_German.

Could you give me chart or something, of what typical Irish person gets on Eurogenes or something? I am sure I have seen something like that before, but I can't remember now, and that might help me..

Yes it's normal, that whole "North Sea" region is extremely close, to Irish as well. Anglo-Saxon effect.

[Graham]

Irish might as well be Beaker folk."

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2015/03/bell-beaker-corded-ware-ehg-and-yamnaya.html
I'd go with the Iberians being a Mid Neolthic-Bell Beaker mix too.

The British/Irish being more bell Beaker, Basque oldest towards Mid Neolithic, rest of Iberians & France in-between.

The more samples we get the better we know.

There are people that believe the Bell Beaker as being Proto-Celtic in language.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I must confess i laughed.



With a slight North shift, compared to Brits as a whole but yea basically the same genetically.

Laughed at what?

[Gooding]

If this helps at all, here are my grandmother (3/4 Irish 1/4 Scottish)'s k7 results:

Population
ANE 16.77%
ASE 2.18%
WHG-UHG 65.43%
East_Eurasian 0.20%
West_African 0.36%
East_African 0.24%
ENF 14.83%

So, essentially, the modern population of Ireland descends from strains of people who had inhabited the island of Ireland from the Neolithic Age. That kind of blows certain founder myths out of the water, I suppose..

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

One thing I DO NOT understand is why the Irish seem to be so different, personality wise to Germanics, Slavs, etc.

And I mean typically. Most Irish descended people I know have certain personalities, whereas more Germanics have certain personalities...I can't get it out of my head that they could be close, there has to be something that makes them different from each other, so much that the average Irish or Germanic will have a certain personality that is the exact opposite of the others'.

For example, my Father's family is mostly Irish and Catholic and they are very wild people, very funny, mischievous, well very creative people as well. My Mother's family which is mostly Protestant, a mix of Scandinavian and Germans, are all kinda boring. Well, very loving people but definitely there's a huge difference between my dad's family and my mom's. My moms family are just very quiet, and it seems like they do not know how to laugh...they are nice people, just different personalities...

[Gooding]

One thing I DO NOT understand is why the Irish seem to be so different, personality wise to Germanics, Slavs, etc.

And I mean typically. Most Irish descended people I know have certain personalities, whereas more Germanics have certain personalities...I can't get it out of my head that they could be close, there has to be something that makes them different from each other, so much that the average Irish or Germanic will have a certain personality that is the exact opposite of the others'.

For example, my Father's family is mostly Irish and Catholic and they are very wild people, very funny, mischievous, well very creative people as well. My Mother's family which is mostly Protestant, a mix of Scandinavian and Germans, are all kinda boring. Well, very loving people but definitely there's a huge difference between my dad's family and my mom's. My moms family are just very quiet, and it seems like they do not know how to laugh...they are nice people, just different personalities...
I have relatives who have very sober and quiet personalities too. They tend to be McDonalds, truth be told. Goodings tend to be a bit louder, wanting to mess around a little more. So our impressions on the different Celtic and Germanic personalities are actually opposite.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I have relatives who have very sober and quiet personalities too. They tend to be McDonalds, truth be told. Goodings tend to be a bit louder, wanting to mess around a little more. So our impressions on the different Celtic and Germanic personalities are actually opposite.

Interesting...

[Jägerstaffel]

Guys, personalities run the gamut in all populations - don't be silly.

[Gooding]

Guys, personalities run the gamut in all populations - don't be silly.

You're absolutely right. Personalities might be partly determined by genetics, but I am of the thought that environment and upbringing have a lot more to do with it.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Guys, personalities run the gamut in all populations - don't be silly.

I guess so...

it's just weird to me how someone who comes from the exact same bloodline, could be evil, dumb, unfunny, and boring while his brother is the exact opposite....I thought genetics played a way bigger part than they actually do, I guess.

[Gooding]

I guess so...

it's just weird to me how someone who comes from the exact same bloodline, could be evil, dumb, unfunny, and boring while his brother is the exact opposite....I thought genetics played a way bigger part than they actually do, I guess.

It really depends on the type of people you relate to more easily. If you're a generally quiet person, you're going to hang out with quiet people ( if you hang out at all), if you're more extroverted, you're going to be with extroverts. You'll be with those who can reinforce and encourage your personality.

[Gooding]

Back to topic, though.. how do you think these indigenous Irish got their language? Was there perhaps a Celtic aristocracy who, while an ethnic minority, was able to impose their language on the Irish populace?

[Gooding]

Bump, so how about it?

[Neon Knight]

I guess so...

it's just weird to me how someone who comes from the exact same bloodline, could be evil, dumb, unfunny, and boring while his brother is the exact opposite....I thought genetics played a way bigger part than they actually do, I guess.

Roughly quoting something I found not long ago:

"AMOVA analysis of humans shows that approximately 85% of genetic variance is between individuals, 5% is between populations in the same racial group, and 10% is interracial."

So the differences in personality between an average Irishman and an average German will largely be due to culture.

[Neon Knight]

Back to topic, though.. how do you think these indigenous Irish got their language? Was there perhaps a Celtic aristocracy who, while an ethnic minority, was able to impose their language on the Irish populace?

Without having gemmed up on it, I'll guess that the Brythonic language in southern Britain spread to Scotland and developed into Gaelic which then spread into Ireland. One thing's for sure, for these ancient migrants and cultures from the East to get to Ireland it's highly likely they would have gone through Britain first, hence the close modern genetic relationship.

[Brianna]

Back to topic, though.. how do you think these indigenous Irish got their language? Was there perhaps a Celtic aristocracy who, while an ethnic minority, was able to impose their language on the Irish populace?

That sounds quite possible. Trade and travel are important factors too.

McCool observes that Irish people are more gregarious than German people. That could be true, but I think that southern Germans tend to be more gregarious than northern Germans. A Bavarian friend says that this tends to be the case. She's always joking and laughing. The claim makes sense when you think about it. Just look at Oktoberfest. That's not a celebration for dour people.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

That sounds quite possible. Trade and travel are important factors too.

McCool observes that Irish people are more gregarious than German people. That could be true, but I think that southern Germans tend to be more gregarious than northern Germans. A Bavarian friend says that this tends to be the case. She's always joking and laughing. The claim makes sense when you think about it. Just look at Oktoberfest. That's not a celebration for dour people.

By Germans, I did not mean Bavarians...

actually my grandmother on my dad's side is half Irish and half Bavarian German, and they are all very gregarious people.

I think the Bavarians are quite social and comical. TBH they are not that all related to other Germans, are they? More like Austrians. Germany only became unified in 1871. I think there are more differences among the German populations than similarities.

Bavarians are friendly Alpinids, other Germans have more Nordic input. I think Bavarians are more or less Celts, in regards to their ancestry.

Celts are warm and friendly like Mediterraneans and Germanics are cold, just like where they come from, Scandinavia...

[Gooding]

By Germans, I did not mean Bavarians...

actually my grandmother on my dad's side is half Irish and half Bavarian German, and they are all very gregarious people.

I think the Bavarians are quite social and comical. TBH they are not that all related to other Germans, are they? More like Austrians. Germany only became unified in 1871. I think there are more differences among the German populations than similarities.

Bavarians are friendly Alpinids, other Germans have more Nordic input. I think Bavarians are more or less Celts, in regards to their ancestry.

Celts are warm and friendly like Mediterraneans and Germanics are cold, just like where they come from, Scandinavia...
That settles that, I reckon. I'll go ahead and let the Rhinelanders and Frieslanders of my acquaintance to stop fucking around, they're supposed to be dull. I wonder how well that will go over..

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

That settles that, I reckon.

I should add that Germanics' coldness is admirable trait. It is not something I look down to them on, in fact I admire this trait.

But I am not that way myself, so I don't really fit in with them.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

That settles that, I reckon. I'll go ahead and let the Rhinelanders and Frieslanders of my acquaintance to stop fucking around, they're supposed to be dull. I wonder how well that will go over..

lol.

My grandfather on my dads side is half Irish, quarter Rhinelander, quarter Colonial American (English, Dutch and some Scottish down the line).

And he married my grandmother who is half Irish half Bavarian German.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

That settles that, I reckon. I'll go ahead and let the Rhinelanders and Frieslanders of my acquaintance to stop fucking around, they're supposed to be dull. I wonder how well that will go over..

Oh, and for the record, my Grandfather fits the stereotype, his father was a wild Irishman (son of immigrants) but his mother who was descended from Colonials + German immigrants from the Rhineland was quite dull, and he takes after her. He married my grandmother who was far more gregarious and wild (half Irish and half Bavarian German, of course they will be crazy!). And then they had my Dad and of course all of his many sisters and older brother.

My grandfather was a really cool guy, though. He just couldn't make jokes :/ but he knew when to laugh which is what matters.

[Proctor]

Roughly quoting something I found not long ago:

"AMOVA analysis of humans shows that approximately 85% of genetic variance is between individuals, 5% is between populations in the same racial group, and 10% is interracial."

So the differences in personality between an average Irishman and an average German will largely be due to culture.

>mfw they did an analysis and somehow got numbers divisible by 5
that's how you know its BS, unless it's some kind of statistical anomaly

I think it would be more accurate to look at the rate of SNP variations of genes that affect personality between two populations than just citing vague studies like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_psychology#Genetic_basis_of_personalit y

[Nurzat]

The Irish are a mix of?

where does the name come from? Ire-land? what's Ire? Eire? and what's 'Eire' as meaning?

[Gooding]

lol.

My grandfather on my dads side is half Irish, quarter Rhinelander, quarter Colonial American (English, Dutch and some Scottish down the line).

And he married my grandmother who is half Irish half Bavarian German.

Interesting... my traceable German ancestry on my father's side goes back to Johann Jakob Steinbrenner, of Lachweiler, Schwabisch Hall, Baden Wurttemberg. That's located in northeast Baden- Wurttemberg, in Franconia. On my mother's side, her maternal grandfather's maternal ancestry goes back to Hans Maegert, of Reichenbeach bei Frutigen, Bern Kanton, Switzerland. My Granddad McDonald has negligible German ancestry through a Christian Peavyhouse ( Bevighaus) who was a great- grandfather of my grandfather's grandmother, Pharaba Cecil. Granny McDonald's Cajun mother has German blood through Karl von Arensberg, of Stettin, Pomerania and Johannes Rommel, of Kirchardt, Heilbronn. Most of my German ancestry is from the southwestern corner of that country, and of course my Swiss blood is Swiss German, as the Maegerts married into other German families such as the Benzes and Epperts before Samuel Maggard married Rebecca Robertson and they moved from Augusta County, Virginia, into Kentucky.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Interesting... my traceable German ancestry on my father's side goes back to Johann Jakob Steinbrenner, of Lachweiler, Schwabisch Hall, Baden Wurttemberg. That's located in northeast Baden- Wurttemberg, in Franconia. On my mother's side, her maternal grandfather's maternal ancestry goes back to Hans Maegert, of Reichenbeach bei Frutigen, Bern Kanton, Switzerland. My Granddad McDonald has negligible German ancestry through a Christian Peavyhouse ( Bevighaus) who was a great- grandfather of my grandfather's grandmother, Pharaba Cecil. Granny McDonald's Cajun mother has German blood through Karl von Arensberg, of Stettin, Pomerania and Johannes Rommel, of Kirchardt, Heilbronn. Most of my German ancestry is from the southwestern corner of that country, and of course my Swiss blood is Swiss German, as the Maegerts married into other German families such as the Benzes and Epperts before Samuel Maggard married Rebecca Robertson and they moved from Augusta County, Virginia, into Kentucky.

Cool :)

You are very specific.

Also, I shouldn't say my Grandfather couldn't tell a joke, and what a guy he was, anyway...it's just my grandmother made him look dull :) she kinda stole the show. But I knew my Grandfather well in his later years, he was an amazing person. And compared to my Mother's side of the family, he was crazy and wild. My Mother's family is so dull. Not in the bad way, but they just are :) they are Scando-Germans primarily. Except my great, great grandmother who was of pure Colonial descent. And she was very gregarious from what I'm told. It's just the Scando-Germans who dominated the family that were very quiet and dull. Although they were nice people.

[Gooding]

Cool :)

You are very specific.

Also, I shouldn't say my Grandfather couldn't tell a joke, and what a guy he was, anyway...it's just my grandmother made him look dull :) she kinda stole the show. But I knew my Grandfather well in his later years, he was an amazing person. And compared to my Mother's side of the family, he was crazy and wild. My Mother's family is so dull. Not in the bad way, but they just are :) they are Scando-Germans primarily. Except my great, great grandmother who was of pure Colonial descent. And she was very gregarious from what I'm told. It's just the Scando-Germans who dominated the family that were very quiet and dull. Although they were nice people.

Once you get married, you'll see why the men are going to be quieter than their wives. Trust me, it's a lot easier.

[Gooding]

where does the name come from? Ire-land? what's Ire? Eire? and what's 'Eire' as meaning?

Well, the " land" is a Scandinavian term that means what we mean in English.. a parcel of real estate. Eire ( or Eriu) to my limited and non- Irish understanding, was originally the name of an Earth Mother goddess who got the Bard Amergin ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE3eDXQDe28) to promise that he would be sure that the land carried her name after his people appropriated it from the Tuatha De Danaan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amergin_Gl%C3%BAingel

[i'llseeyouinhell]

mostly beer

[Neon Knight]

>mfw they did an analysis and somehow got numbers divisible by 5
that's how you know its BS, unless it's some kind of statistical anomaly

I think it would be more accurate to look at the rate of SNP variations of genes that affect personality between two populations than just citing vague studies like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_psychology#Genetic_basis_of_personalit y

They did say the numbers were approximate. The kind of study you suggest would, indeed, be of greater relevance but I'd be surprised if there were genetic personality differences between populations as close as Irish and Germans.

[Balmung]

Lucky charms and stew.