Are finns closer to swedes or to russians?

[ius semper]

Is the population of finland genetically closer to its western neighbour or to the russian federation? Discuss

[Ali Pasha]

Finns are closer to Turks.

[ius semper]

Finns are closer to Turks.

whatever

[FeederOfRavens]

Is the population of finland genetically closer to its western neighbour or to the russian federation? Discuss

Closer to the Indo-Europeanized Finnics in both of these populations.

[revealman]

they are closest to estonians, latvians, komis, maris and chuvashs(russia)

turkey has almost no N haplogroup present, modern turks are closer to greeks and albanians than to ugrofinns

[Shah-Jehan]

Swedes

[Dylan]

A lot of Swedes mixed with Finns so I'll go with Swedes.

[Pennywise]

they are closest to estonians, latvians, komis, maris and chuvashs(russia)

turkey has almost no N haplogroup present, modern turks are closer to greeks and albanians than to ugrofinns

Except for the Estonians (and maybe Latvians) Finns are not close to any of them. They have almost nothing to do with other Finnic peoples and Chuvashes are Turkic. They are mostly close to Swedes.

[Turan]

swedes but some of them to mongols.

[Mario M.]

I have never been to Russian but I have visited both Finland and Estonia very recently. From what I've observed, Estonians are more Swedish-looking than the Finns. Most of the Finns that I saw did look like Swedes except they were more lappoid.

[revealman]

Except for the Estonians (and maybe Latvians) Finns are not close to any of them. They have almost nothing to do with other Finnic peoples and Chuvashes are Turkic. They are mostly close to Swedes.
said who? they all share the largest amount of haplogroup N so better check facts first before telling nonsense..

turks in tukey have virtually nohaplogroup N how can they be related to chuvash by genetics? never.. they are only related by culture not by genes

finnland majority is haplogroup N
chuvas and komis and maris have predominately haplogroup N
turks have none!

[revealman]

I have never been to Russian but I have visited both Finland and Estonia very recently. From what I've observed, Estonians are more Swedish-looking than the Finns. Most of the Finns that I saw did look like Swedes except they were more lappoid.
if you go by skin hair and eye colors for sure, but by genetics estonians and finns are different than swedes, swedes have very little haplogroup N while finns have a lot

[Pennywise]

said who? they all share the largest amount of haplogroup N so better check facts first before telling nonsense..

Lol. Tell it to the Finns. They tend to be deny their Siberian heritage.


turks in tukey have virtually nohaplogroup N how can they be related to chuvash by genetics? never.. they are only related by culture not by genes

finnland majority is haplogroup N
chuvas and komis and maris have predominately haplogroup N
turks have none!

Genius, genetic features don't determine your ethnicity. Those are different things. Chuvashes are Turkic, regardless their genetics.

[revealman]

Lol. Tell it to Finns. They tend to be deny their Siberian heritage.
you cant deny whats obvious by dna tests.. finns have siberian blood ! haplogroup N

dont let him fool you because he is depigmented, he still has siberian dna
http://www.spox.com/de/sport/mehrsport/motorsport/1110/Bilder/mika-haekkinen-514.jpg

as a teenager i always wondered how can finns and swedes(protogermanics) have similar runes (http://archive.worldhistoria.com/does-the-runic-and-gok-turk-monuments-have-the-same-origins_topic7373_page1.html) as turks(gökturk) and why in sweden you have names as hakan like in turkey.. now i know for sure the germanic tribes had contact with siberian turks once..

and while the languages of turkic and germanic tribes are not completely related, their languages sound very similar

swedish, finnish and turkic languages
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS_U1C3MGc8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTrDckGHsys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpH-Z1soSmc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbtiWe08_zo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL08uN2AESM

[Äijä]

Closer to the Indo-Europeanized Finnics in both of these populations.

Indo-Europeans turned Finnic first but Sweden and Russia do have regions with a lot of Finnic ancestry.

[spanish catalan]

russians

[Äijä]

if you go by skin hair and eye colors for sure, but by genetics estonians and finns are different than swedes, swedes have very little haplogroup N while finns have a lot

The name Sweden comes from Svealand that has 15-20% of N1c1.

[aksakallicocuk]

Swedes

[Neon Knight]

Russians mostly.

[Äijä]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Map_swedish_lands.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svealand

Svealand and Norrland 15-20% N1c.

[Äijä]

Where did the prestige of Uppsala as a location and center of Svealand come from, for some reason this is not studied more.

[Pennywise]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Map_swedish_lands.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svealand

Svealand and Norrland 15-20% N1c.

So? N1c1 is carried by Lapps and Finns into Scandinavia. What are you tyring to prove?

[Äijä]

So? N1c1 is carried by Lapps and Finns into Scandinavia. What are you tyring to prove?

That the spread has all the hallmarks of elite dominance, that is the reason N1c is starting to be argued as an Indo-European expansion.

[Sikeliot]

I have never been to Russian but I have visited both Finland and Estonia very recently. From what I've observed, Estonians are more Swedish-looking than the Finns. Most of the Finns that I saw did look like Swedes except they were more lappoid.

I think Swedes, compared to Norwegians have a bit of an eastern look, sort of similar to Russians sometimes even, so Finns would be the same way.

[Pennywise]

That the spread has all the hallmarks of elite dominance, that is the reason N1c is starting to be argued as an Indo-European expansion.

Who says N is Indo-European? It Sounds rather your wish.

[Äijä]

Who says N is Indo-European? It Sounds rather your wish.

N is not Indo-European in origin and that is only the wish of IE fanatics, not mine



Domestication and language spreads in early northern Eurasia

Speaker: Johanna Nichols, University of California, Berkeley

Large-scale language spreading in Eurasia has generally been traced back to the Indo-European expansion from the western steppe. However, what is known now about the mechanisms, sociolinguistics, and linguistic geography of language spreads requires a separate large linguistic and cultural spread from the vicinity of the northwestern Kazakh steppe starting at the early horizon of the transition to food production there, approximately contemporaneous to or just before the beginning of the IE expansion and continuing to the well-known Indo-Iranian Bronze Age expansion (which it in fact absorbed and furthered). This paper lays out the spread model in full and presents linguistic evidence (typological, etymological, geographical) that, just as Proto-Finno-Ugric was catalyst language at the frontier of the Indo-Iranian spread, Proto-Uralic was catalyst or even main spreading language in the early Kazakh-steppe spread. I raise specific archaeological-linguistic hypotheses for future work elucidating language and ethnic origins across northern Eurasia, focusing especially on the far-flung Danube, Altai, and Tien-Shan early migration targets; the age and importance of what has been called the "Fur Road" north of the steppe; and what the model entails for the likelihood of IE-Uralic contact or relatedness and the still earlier origins of both families.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.fi/2015/08/the-proto-indo-europeans-came-from.html

[Pennywise]

N is not Indo-European in origin and that is only the wish of IE fanatics, not mine




http://eurogenes.blogspot.fi/2015/08/the-proto-indo-europeans-came-from.html

The paper is about the IE and Proto-Uralic language relation. It has nothing to do with my previous point. I was talking about the ethnic admixture of Finns. And they have high amount of Siberian N admix.

[Äijä]

The paper is about the IE and Proto-Uralic language relation. It has nothing to do with my previous point. I was talking about the ethnic admixture of Finns. And they have high amount of Siberian N admix.

The paper talks about bronze age language spread that fits perfectly with the N1c expansion that is Eurasian in origin, not Siberian.

[Pennywise]

The paper talks about bronze age language spread that fits perfectly with the N1c expansion that is Eurasian in origin, not Siberian.

Just maybe. But it's still characteristic with Mongoloid people and not Europids unlike R carrier IE. Eurasian or not, N is not an European gene. That's what I'm saying.

[Äijä]

Just maybe. But it's still characteristic with Mongoloid people and not Europids unlike R carrier IE. Eurasian or not, N is not an European gene. That's what I'm saying.

N1c carried by Europeans is more Europid than R1b or R1a.

[Marshmallow Fluff]

I have a lot of photographs of my Finnish ancestors and none of them had Lappoid features.


I have never been to Russian but I have visited both Finland and Estonia very recently. From what I've observed, Estonians are more Swedish-looking than the Finns. Most of the Finns that I saw did look like Swedes except they were more lappoid.

[Äijä]

I have a lot of photographs of my Finnish ancestors and none of them had Lappoid features.

Pics or you are lying. :D

[Pennywise]

N1c carried by Europeans is more Europid than R1b or R1a.

No, it was Finnic and Sami tribes, not Indo-Europeans. And it is widely accepted that N is an Asian originated gene, its origin place is most possibly China.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/13/216

[Rugevit]

No, it was Finnic and Sami tribes, not Indo-Europeans. And it is widely accepted that N is an Asian originated gene, its origin place is most possibly China.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/13/216

And R is in Altai, which is also in Asia.

[Äijä]

No, it was Finnic and Sami tribes, not Indo-Europeans. And it is widely accepted that N is an Asian originated gene, its origin place is most possibly China.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/13/216

Are you claiming that Finnic and Uralic tribes where not Europid?

Where did R originate?

[Peter Nirsch]

half and half.

[Äijä]

half and half.

So what is the Finnic part in between?

[Peter Nirsch]

So what is the Finnic part in between?

in the between of the other two betweens, probably.

[Pennywise]

Are you claiming that Finnic and Uralic tribes where not Europid?

Where did R originate?

Yes, you are living with Lapps. Take them as an example. Most of them look straight Mongol. Where do you think they got their appearances?

[Pennywise]

And R is in Altai, which is also in Asia.

It was 23.000 years ago. and Turkic people are also have R with high amount, which have strong mongoloid influences. We don't know how and when IE speakers got that haplogroup.

[Äijä]

Yes, you are living with Lapps. Take them as an example. Most of them look straight Mongol. Where do you think they got their appearances?

Finland has 6000 Sami, we have more Gypsies and Somalis.

But seriously, any recent Siberian admix in Finland, Finns or Sami, is from the Arctic Sea trade routes that went trough Finland and Karelia from bronze age to historical times.

[Äijä]

It was 23.000 years ago. and Turkic people are also have R with high amount, which have strong mongoloid influences. We don't know how and when IE speakers got that haplogroup.

So what makes them more Europid than N1c?

[Rugevit]

It was 23.000 years ago. and Turkic people are also have R with high amount. We don't know how and when IE speakers got that haplogroup.

The age of N haplogroup is also around 25,000 years old. So what's your point? Do you realise that Europeans who have N1c1 in elevated frequencies are more indigenous to Europe than most Europeans?
Lithuanians have N1c1 around 36-37%. They are very European genetically and culturally. http://bga101.blogspot.com/2012/04/so-whos-most-european-of-us-all.html

[Pennywise]

Finland has 6000 Sami, we have more Gypsies and Somalis.

But seriously, any recent Siberian admix in Finland, Finns or Sami, is from the Arctic Sea trade routes that went trough Finland and Karelia from bronze age to historical times.

Dude, your ancestors weren't look like Scandinavians when they reached to Finnland. They mixed with North Europeans. Mongoloidness among Finno-Ugric speakers is not a recent thing.

[Äijä]

Dude, your ancestors weren't look like Scandinavians when they reached to Finnland. They mixed with North Europeans. Mongoloidness among Finno-Ugric speakers is not a recent thing.

When and how did this happpen, timeline? :rolleyes:

[Pennywise]

The age of N haplogroup is also around 25,000 years old. So what's your point? Do you realise that Europeans who have N1c1 in elevated frequencies are more indigenous to Europe than most Europeans?
Lithuanians have N1c1 around 36-37%. They are very European genetically and culturally. http://bga101.blogspot.com/2012/04/so-whos-most-european-of-us-all.html

Most of the R carriers are Europid people. N carriers not. N in Europe imported from Eurasia by the Finnic migrations. It's not indegenous. Are you claim the first Finnic speakers in Europe were Europid?

[Rugevit]

Most of the R carriers are Europid people. N carriers not. N in Europe imported from Eurasia by the Finnic migrations. It's not indegenous. Are you claim the first Finnic speakers in Europe were Europid?

Most haplogroups found in Europe were imported from Asia including N and R. By the time N1c1 reached North-eastern Europe the carriers of the haplogroup were already European. The same happened to R folks.

[Pennywise]

Most haplogroups found in Europe were imported from Asia including N and R. By the time N1c1 reached North-eastern Europe the carriers of the haplogroup were already European. The same happened to R folks.

1-) Do you have any source to verify this?
2-) So you accept that the both N and R folk were Mongoloid and later became Europid?

[Rugevit]

1-) Do you have any source to verify this?
2-) So you accept that the both N and R folk were Mongoloid and later became Europid?

Do you have a source to verify your claim that N1c1 comers were not Europid ? I can find the information about physical appearance of people in east Baltics (region full of N1c1 nowdays) since Neolith.
Most likely original folks who had N and R that lived in prehistoric times would be considered to have mongoloid appearance.

[Pennywise]

Do you have a source to verify your claim that N1c1 comers were not European? I can find the information about physical appearance of people in east Baltics (region full of N1c1 nowdays) since Neolith.
Most likely original folks who had N and R that lived in prehistoric times would be considered to have mongoloid appearance.

:D So you can't verify it? I'm not asking about the current people on Baltic region. Besides, why do you want source from me? You said that pre-historic N and R carriers were mongolid. You're accepting it.

[Rugevit]

:D So you can't verify it? I'm not asking about the current people on Baltic region. Besides, why do you want source from me? You said that the pre-historic N and R carries were mongolid. You're accepting it.

If you are asking others for sources, then expect to be asked for the sources too to substantiate your claims. Of course, I am accepting that people in pre-historic times living in Asia were most likely had mongoloid appearance. Did I not mention that several times? Prehistoric people carrying O, N and R living in Asia likely had mongoloid physical appearance. Well, not what we would consider as Europid today.

[Pennywise]

If you are asking others for sources, then expect to be asked for the sources too to substantiate your claims. Of course, I am accepting that people in pre-historic times living in Asia were most likely had mongoloid appearance. Did I not mention that several times? Prehistoric people carrying O, N and R living in Asia likely had mongoloid physical appearance. Well, not what we would consider as Europid today.

That's what I'm talking about. So, can you explain me to how N carrier Finnic people were look "European" when they reached to Finland 3.000 years ago (at least)?

[Rugevit]

That's what I'm talking about. So, can you explain me to how N carrier Finnic people were look "European" when they reached to Finland at 3.000 years ago (at least)?

Baltic Finns migrated to Finland through Estonia. Most crania found in east Baltics (Estonia and northern Latvia) dated to 3,000 yeas of age are described as Europid by physical anthropologists. Also keep in mind the difference between genetic ancestors and genealogical ancestors. The number of genetic ancestors starts off growing exponentially, but eventually flattens out to around 125 ancestors (at 10 generations, 120 of your 1024 genealogical ancestors are genetic ancestors).

[Pennywise]

Baltic Finns migrated to Finland through Estonia. Most crania found in east Baltics (Estonia and northern Latvia) dated to 3,000 yeas of age are described as Europid by physical anthropologists. Also keep in mind the difference between genetic ancestors and genealogical ancestors. The number of genetic ancestors starts off growing exponentially, but eventually flattens out to around 125 ancestors (at 10 generations, 120 of your 1024 genealogical ancestors are genetic ancestors).

You know "Europid" is a very wide term. Obviously Finnic people weren't look same as they look today. And I really like to see that study. Do you have any link about that?

[Rugevit]

You know "Europid" is a very wide term. Obviously Finnic people weren't look same as they look today. And I really like to see that study. Do you have any link about that?

Chapter from Physical Anthropology of European Populations on Neolitichic population through to Corded ware of Eastern Baltic written by physical anthropologist Raisa Denisova.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5aki89wcwku33f2/The_Neolithic_Population_Eastern_Baltic_Denisova.p df

[Ctwentysevenj]

More closer to the Finno-Urgic group of people

[Ctwentysevenj]

Would be Finns closer to Hungarians than to Swedes?

[ius semper]

2 part. Are danes closer to swedes or to germans? Discuss

[Antimage]

Would be Finns closer to Hungarians than to Swedes?

They are closer to swedes by far. Finno ugric is a language group not a racial one.

[Tooting Carmen]

2 part. Are danes closer to swedes or to germans? Discuss

Swedes, given that Danes generally lack the darker types that occur with a somewhat higher frequency among Germans.

[Antimage]

if you go by skin hair and eye colors for sure, but by genetics estonians and finns are different than swedes, swedes have very little haplogroup N while finns have a lot

Finns are similar to Swedes genetically.

Haplogroup=/= ancestry
autosomal DNA= ancestry

[ius semper]

Swedes, given that Danes generally lack the darker types that occur with a somewhat higher frequency among Germans.

although danish is closer to german than to swedish right?

[Antimage]

although danish is closer to german than to swedish right?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/06/geomap.jpg

[Tooting Carmen]

although danish is closer to german than to swedish right?

No - Danish and Swedish are North Germanic languages, while German is West Germanic.

[SKYNET]

physically russians, culturally swedes

[ius semper]

physically russians, culturally swedes

well I'd say culturally they only resemble theirselves

[SKYNET]

well I'd say culturally they only resemble theirselves



there's no significant difference in there between them, except the language

[Nordicist]

Finns are basically Nordics with a lot of Mongoloid Siberian admixture. This is demonstrated by the high incidence of Y-Haplotype N found among Yakuts.

[XenophobicPrussian]

physically russians, culturally swedes
Finns look nothing like Russians.

Finns:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/advictoriam/petriandi.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyGOUcH9VjjOC4p0kXdb6RpQLW2gZru QfIu9WGRqOSeMNrybn2


Russians:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03017/Russian-8-way_3017094b.jpg
(Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine)

http://cdn.fightmagazine.com/imgs/fighterprofile/ALEXANDER_SHLEMENKO.jpg

[XenophobicPrussian]

Finns are basically Nordics with a lot of Mongoloid Siberian admixture. This is demonstrated by the high incidence of Y-Haplotype N found among Yakuts.
If it was admixture they wouldn't be the most blonde nation in the world given blondism is so recessive. They either evolved from N Yakut-type people(having a different common ancestor than other Euros but spending as much time in Europe), or the Yakuts are the mixed ones.

[Antimage]

well I'd say culturally they only resemble theirselves

what makes you think fins are distant from swedes culturally? I don't understand. They are not, they are quite close actually.

[Antimage]

If it was admixture they wouldn't be the most blonde nation in the world given blondism is so recessive. They either evolved from N Yakut-type people(having a different common ancestor than other Euros but spending as much time in Europe), or the Yakuts are the mixed ones.

Finns are ~6% mongoloid/east asian genetically (5,73% according to this test https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml)

but 6% is simply not enough admixture to show on their phenotype. It starts to be visible when it's more than 10%, same with blacks, 95%white 5% SSA looks 100% white. Although this 6% is the avarage, some finns have more ,some have less.

[Yuffayur]

Karelia .

[Nordicist]

If it was admixture they wouldn't be the most blonde nation in the world given blondism is so recessive. They either evolved from N Yakut-type people(having a different common ancestor than other Euros but spending as much time in Europe), or the Yakuts are the mixed ones.

The Yakuts have been influenced a lot by their Altaic neighbors for many centuries. That is why Yakuts look like Tungusics even though they speak a Turkic language and carry Y-Haplotype N (most Tungids have Y-Haplotype C3).

[XenophobicPrussian]

Finns are ~6% mongoloid/east asian genetically (5,73% according to this test https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml)

but 6% is simply not enough admixture to show on their phenotype. It starts to be visible when it's more than 10%, same with blacks, 95%white 5% SSA looks 100% white. Although this 6% is the avarage, some finns have more ,some have less.
6% is around the number of outside admixture for every western European nation, and most of these people are probably concentrated in the north/east parts of the country where mixing with Sami happened. The study may or may not have including actual Samis, too. I'm not exactly sure about France but I'm sure they have around 6% outside admixture, being Middle-Eastern instead of Mongoloid, while Russia has 12% middle-eastern admixture and places like Sicily/southern Spain having a lot more. Also, the link you posted doesn't seperate Neolithic farmer ancestry with recent MENA admixture, based on that logic the East Eurasian category should be put together with ANE.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/West-Asian-admixture.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Southwest-Asian-admixture.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Red_Sea-admixture.gif
(some of these surely overlap, btw)

Actually, it seems Finns have more than 6% based on this, but it still isn't more than other Western countries of outside admixture.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

[Antimage]

6% is around the number of outside admixture for every western European nation, and most of these people are probably concentrated in the north/east parts of the country where mixing with Sami happened. The study may or may not have including actual Samis, too. I'm not exactly sure about France but I'm sure they have around 6% outside admixture, being Middle-Eastern instead of Mongoloid, while Russia has 12% middle-eastern admixture and places like Sicily/southern Spain having a lot more. Also, the link you posted doesn't seperate Neolithic farmer ancestry with recent MENA admixture, based on that logic the East Eurasian category should be put together with ANE.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/West-Asian-admixture.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Southwest-Asian-admixture.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Red_Sea-admixture.gif
(some of these surely overlap, btw)

Actually, it seems Finns have more than 6% based on this, but it still isn't more than other Western countries of outside admixture.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif



]6% is around the number of outside admixture for every western European nation

It depends on what you consider "outside admixture"



and most of these people are probably concentrated in the north/east parts of the country where mixing with Sami happened. All I hear is an excuse, it is well known that Finns have a bit of mongoloid in them


I'm not exactly sure about France but I'm sure they have around 6% outside admixture, being Middle-Eastern instead of Mongoloid, while Russia has 12% middle-eastern admixture and places like Sicily/southern Spain having a lot more.

FRance don't have outside admixture but thn again it depends on what we consider outside admixture. If we consider near easern blood outside admixture then The mighty swedes and norwegians have 35% outside admixture.


Also, the link you posted doesn't seperate Neolithic farmer ancestry with recent MENA admixture, based on that logic the East Eurasian category should be put together with ANE.

No it should not. There is no reason to separate recent MENA admixture and neolithic farmer because MENAs are mostly neolithic farmers themselves and all europeans are already part near eastern (and part ANE.)
ANE is clearly different than East Asian component, Europeans have more ANE than east asians, ANE is not alien to europeans, east asian on the other hand is alien to most of europeans. Amerindians are roughly half ANE half East asian and they don't look east asian, the reason is probably their high ANE component.


Actually, it seems Finns have more than 6% based on this, but it still isn't more than other Western countries of outside admixture.

Based on that Finns have 5-10% east asian and 6% falls within that range

[Harkonnen]

Finns are basically Nordics with a lot of Mongoloid Siberian admixture. This is demonstrated by the high incidence of Y-Haplotype N found among Yakuts.

The Yakut N1c1 descents from European N1c1. I wrote abot this here http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?180093-How-did-Samoans-evolve-to-be-so-huge-and-strong&p=3749328&viewfull=1#post3749328 from Samoyedic perspective, but the same applies to Yakuts.

[XenophobicPrussian]

No it should not. There is no reason to separate recent MENA admixture and neolithic farmer because MENAs are mostly neolithic farmers themselves and all europeans are already part near eastern (and part ANE.)
No, there is a reason. The Neolithic MENA people came thousands of years ago, mixed, and evolved in a European climate.

If an Italian mixed with a Levantine Roman migrant in 300 AD or a Sicilian mixed with an Arab colonist when they ruled Sicily, that Italian is gunna have more MENA features than a person who is majority Neolithic Near Eastern farmer, when the mixing happened 7000 years ago instead of recently. That's what the maps above are, autosmal DNA showing similarities between people. A MENA person who came during the Neolithic era would have lost a lot of these similarities due to mixing and evolution in Europe, which is why they show people like the French having 30-50% Near Eastern Farmer ancestry but only a few 5% autosomally similar to MENA people.

[Antimage]

No, there is a reason. The Neolithic MENA people came thousands of years ago, mixed, and evolved in a European climate.

If an Italian mixed with a Levantine Roman migrant in 300 AD or a Sicilian mixed with an Arab colonist when they ruled Sicily, that Italian is gunna have more MENA features than a person who is majority Neolithic Near Eastern farmer, when the mixing happened 7000 years ago instead of recently. That's what the maps above are, autosmal DNA showing similarities between people. A MENA person who came during the Neolithic era would have lost a lot of these similarities due to mixing and evolution in Europe, which is why they show people like the French having 30-50% Near Eastern Farmer ancestry but only a few 5% autosomally similar to MENA people.

Hmm, okay.

[Petalpusher]

No it should not. There is no reason to separate recent MENA admixture and neolithic farmer because MENAs are mostly neolithic farmers themselves and all europeans are already part near eastern (and part ANE.)
ANE is clearly different than East Asian component, Europeans have more ANE than east asians, ANE is not alien to europeans, east asian on the other hand is alien to most of europeans. Amerindians are roughly half ANE half East asian and they don't look east asian, the reason is probably their high ANE component.


Also something to consider when we refer as "MENA" (it's more ancient middle eastern/neolithic you are all talking about) is that you have to compare with what is supposedly embedded in it as distinctive "racial" type. Middle Eastern are mostly caucasoid, they are gonna be like 95% non African. So let's say you are 10% of that, you are only 0.5% of what is embedded, while if you are 10% East Eurasian, well..you are 10% mongoloid, it's not a proxy with "something in it", it's the same 10% than a full East Asian would score like 90% today. With Neolithic, the proxy is also very ancient, it evolved, some features were breeded out, there s already that kind of evolution process in a couple of thousands years.

The ANE is clearly not what makes for example Karitianans (highest ANE in the world) looking more Mongoloid, it's not the 40% ANE, it's the 60% East Eurasian. Actually the ANE shifts them away from that type, to another type that doesn't look exactly like a 40% Caucasian but just something distinctive.

[Harkonnen]

Also something to consider when we refer as "MENA" (it's more ancient middle eastern/neolithic you are all talking about) is that you have to compare with what is supposedly embedded in it as distinctive "racial" type. Middle Eastern are mostly caucasoid, they are gonna be like 95% non African. So let's say you are 10% of that, you are only 0.5% of what is embedded, while if you are 10% East Eurasian, well..you are 10% mongoloid, it's not a proxy with "something in it", it's the same 10% than a full East Asian would score like 90% today. With Neolithic, the proxy is also very ancient, it evolved, some features were breeded out, there s already that kind of evolution process in a couple of thousands years.

The ANE is clearly not what makes for example Karitianans (highest ANE in the world) looking more Mongoloid, it's not the 40% ANE, it's the 60% East Eurasian. Actually the ANE shifts them away from that type, to another type that doesn't look exactly like a 40% Caucasian but just something distinctive.

What the hell is caucasoid race? Are you seriously trying to claim that this mideastern woman http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?181551-classify-and-guess-women is same race with this woman

http://image.citycdn.fi/01/38/54/81/043be6077b485f25c7228bd612096e72.jpeg
http://hs12.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/700/1434341784757?ts=20
http://static.iltalehti.fi/urheilu/jnmakela1806JoP_503_ur.jpg
http://hs13.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/700/1305935701148?ts=397

[Antimage]

What the hell is caucasoid race? Are you seriously trying to claim that this mideastern woman http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?181551-classify-and-guess-women is same race with this woman

http://image.citycdn.fi/01/38/54/81/043be6077b485f25c7228bd612096e72.jpeg
http://hs12.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/700/1434341784757?ts=20
http://static.iltalehti.fi/urheilu/jnmakela1806JoP_503_ur.jpg
http://hs13.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/700/1305935701148?ts=397

Race is a social construct for the most part, but I agree, Caucasoid category is too broad and meaningless.. but the same goes for Negroid, Australoid and Mongoloid(some people include native americans in mongoloids). All races have a very big variety of looks.

[Petalpusher]

What the hell is caucasoid race? Are you seriously trying to claim that this mideastern woman http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?181551-classify-and-guess-women is same race with this woman


If you make 3 distinctive racial types, yes those two are closer to each other, than any of them to fully Mongoloid or SSA.

What we refer as caucasian in the collective sense of people's mind, just that, meaning someone who doesn't feature anything "alien" and looks fully European, let's say an English if you like.

[Harkonnen]

If you make 3 distinctive racial types, yes those two are closer to each other, than any of them to fully Mongoloid or SSA.

What we refer as caucasian in the collective sense of people's mind, just that, meaning someone who doesn't feature anything "alien" and looks fully European, let's say an English if you like.

Oh please you are blind dumb fuck. There is no mideastern bitch who looks nowhere close to the Finnish woman I posted. She has in part very primitive morphology, which you can see in some East Eurasian women as a form of atavism. She looks very similar to the part aborigine Cathy Freeman. Aborigines ofc are also part of larger Easteurasia.

[Petalpusher]

Oh please you are blind dumb fuck. There is no mideastern bitch who looks nowhere close to the Finnish woman I posted. She has in part very primitive morphology, which you can see in some East Eurasian women as a form of atavism. She looks very similar to the part aborigine Cathy Freeman. Aborigines ofc are also part of larger Easteurasia.

They aren't close, but they aren't closer to be mongol and African than they are to each other.

I understand you want to be special, but you are just like other European with a mere +5% ANE, best case scenario, and a bit of mongoloid. Most Scandinavians don't even have the EEurasian, and look fully Western, just more Northern. Everything is fine.

[Antimage]

Oh please you are blind dumb fuck. There is no mideastern bitch who looks nowhere close to the Finnish woman I posted. She has in part very primitive morphology, which you can see in some East Eurasian women as a form of atavism. She looks very similar to the part aborigine Cathy Freeman. Aborigines ofc are also part of larger Easteurasia.

Ironically the bleached haired finn you posted looks a bit mongolish on the first pic.

[Harkonnen]

Of course she looks mongoloid, that is why I posted her. Indeed primitive mongoloid looks.

Another specimen

http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/article7738713.ece/ALTERNATES/w960/15_1%20Alueuutiset%20Maija%20Mokkila.jpg

[Pennywise]

Of course she looks mongoloid, that is why I posted her. Indeed primitive mongoloid looks.

Another specimen



You probably very glad to Germanics and especially Swedes for gave these "stunning" lookings to you guys :rolleyes:

[Rugevit]

You probably very glad to Germanics and especially Swedes for gave these "stunning" looking to you guys :rolleyes:

Mother Russia gave them stunning looks. All IE came from Russia including Estonians, Finns and Hungarians, and Turkic.

[Pennywise]

Mother Russia gave them stunning looks. All IE came from Russia including Estonians, Finns and Hungarians, and Turkic.

Still having Stockholm syndrome? Plus, sorry but Turkics were there for the rape "Mother Russia" :laugh:

[Petalpusher]

Of course she looks mongoloid, that is why I posted her. Indeed primitive mongoloid looks.


Would you say this girl is of "Finnish race" since it seems you are a distinct one, or she s closer to the "mideastern bitch" you were referring to earlier ?

http://tof.canardpc.com/view/4fa13c87-74db-472f-9f56-9f42145fe323.jpg

[Rugevit]

Still having Stockholm syndrome? Plus, sorry but Turkics were there for the rape "Mother Russia" :laugh:

Having Stockholm syndrome over what? There were no Turkic in Belarus. The Russians had the last laugh having conquered your Turkic all they way to the far east. Turkic home-land in Altay is a backward region. All Turkic states are vassals of other countries. So, who is going to have Stockholm syndrome now? ;)

[Rugevit]

Would you say this girl is of "Finnish race" since it seems you are a distinct one, or she s closer to the "mideastern bitch" you were referring to earlier ?

http://tof.canardpc.com/view/4fa13c87-74db-472f-9f56-9f42145fe323.jpg


Distinctly Finnish women would have slightly higher cheek-bones as the woman Valtaves posted above.

[Petalpusher]

Distinctly Finnish women would have slightly higher cheek-bones as the woman Valtaves posted above.

That's my point, because she s kind of an intermediate between the two. She is 50% WHG 50%ENF with no ANE whatsoever or real East Eurasian.

[Rugevit]

That's my point, because she s kind of an intermediate between the two. She is 50% WHG 50%ENF with no ANE whatsoever or real East Eurasian.

Do you you think ANE gives people some east Asian appearance?

[Petalpusher]

Do you you think ANE gives people some east Asian appearance?

Im actually the one who doesn't believe it. Only East Eurasian really gives that distinct look in my opinion.

[Pennywise]

Having Stockholm syndrome over what? There were no Turkic in Belarus. The Russians had the last laugh having conquered your Turkic all they way to the far east. Turkic home-land in Altay is a backward region. All Turkic states are vassals of other countries. So, who is going to have Stockholm syndrome now? ;)

Over Soviets. ;) You know Slavic women were captured and export to Ottomans and different states as sex slaves for centuries by Tatar raiders in Eastern Europe. That must be really hard for you guys. I'm sure there were plenty of hot Belarusian girls among them.

[Rugevit]

Im actually the one that doesn't believe it. Only East Eurasian really gives that distinct look in my opinion.

I think that too. Besides, Lazaridis et al mentioned that ANE in Finns might be different to that of other Europeans. In Europeans is ancient admixture, while in Finns some of ANE could be due to more recent migration from Siberia. http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2014/04/05/001552.full.pdf

Siberian/east Eurasian , however one calls it , is most responsible for east Asian physical appearance. Once it gets closer to 20% like among Chuvashes , Maris and other people of Volga-Ural, the east Asian physical appearance becomes more prominent.

[Rugevit]

Over Soviets. ;) You know Slavic women were captured and export to Ottomans and different states as sex slaves for centuries by Tatar raiders in Eastern Europe. That must be really hard for you guys. I'm sure there were plenty of hot Belarusian girls among them.

Eastern Europe is large region. There were no women captured in Belarus. Belarusian (or Lithuanians in those days) were kicking Turkic butts all the time. So, sheesh.

[Petalpusher]

I think that too. Besides, Lazaridis et al mentioned that ANE in Finns might be different to that of other Europeans. In Europeans is ancient admixture, while in Finns some of ANE could be due to more recent migration from Siberia. http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2014/04/05/001552.full.pdf

Siberian/east Eurasian , however one calls it , is most responsible for east Asian physical appearance. Once it gets closer to 20% like among Chuvashes , Maris and other people of Volga-Ural, the east Asian physical appearance becomes more prominent.

Yea i think that's already a more interesting discussion, like discriminating the ENF which is old, with any recent "middle eastern" admixture.

[Pennywise]

Eastern Europe is large region. There were no women captured in Belarus. Belarusian (or Lithuanians in those days) were kicking Turkic butts all the time. So, sheesh.

Keep dreaming and flattering with your false history. Raids were mainly into today's Ukranian and Polish-Lithuanian lands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean%E2%80%93Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands

So, you can be sure. Our Tatar compatriots didn't miss your girls :laugh:

[Harkonnen]

I think that too. Besides, Lazaridis et al mentioned that ANE in Finns might be different to that of other Europeans. In Europeans is ancient admixture, while in Finns some of ANE could be due to more recent migration from Siberia. http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2014/04/05/001552.full.pdf

Siberian/east Eurasian , however one calls it , is most responsible for east Asian physical appearance. Once it gets closer to 20% like among Chuvashes , Maris and other people of Volga-Ural, the east Asian physical appearance becomes more prominent.

There is also difference in the East Asia in Finland and Russia. Obviously ANE, WHG, ENA are all very ancient vague categories covering huge distances in time and place so there is a lot of room for variation there.

Anyway East Finns obviously in physical type are robust ancient looking folks. Tho we too of course have pussyfaces which are epidemic nowadays everywhere.

[Rugevit]

Keep dreaming and flattering with your false history. Raids were mainly into today's Ukranian and Polish-Lithuanian lands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean%E2%80%93Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands

So, you can be sure. Our Tatar compatriots didn't miss your girls :laugh:

There were no raids into territories of present day Belarus . There were into territories of present day southern Ukraine which was part of Polish Kingdom that was in union with Lithuania (present day Belarus and Lithuania). And stop littering the topic.

[King Claus]

on average the finns don't look Russian at all( IMO). There are huge regional differences and west finns are probably hardly different from swedes in general.

[Pennywise]

There were no raids into territories of present day Belarus . There were into territories of present day southern Ukraine which was part of Polish Kingdom that was in union with Lithuania (present day Belarus and Lithuania). And stop littering the topic.

Yeah sure. Do not think about it. You think about great Mother Russia and her bastard kids.

[Roy]

Swedes, maybe bar some Northern Russians or Karelians.

[Nurzat]

I have never been to Russian but I have visited both Finland and Estonia very recently. From what I've observed, Estonians are more Swedish-looking than the Finns. Most of the Finns that I saw did look like Swedes except they were more lappoid.

I can confirm this. there's more of a Scandinavian Germanic look in Estonians and more East Baltic Finnic look in Finns, that some Russians have it, because (see below)


Closer to the Indo-Europeanized Finnics in both of these populations.

totally agree

[Rugevit]

South-west Finns look as as Swedes, while Estonians are more similar to Latvians.


W_Est is coastal Estonian population that includes Saaremaa island.
E_Est is continental population that includes central and eastern Estonian populations, as well as Seto people.
W_Lat is coastal Latvian population
C_Lat is central and north Latvian populations
E_Lat is east Latvian populations.
NW_Lit — North-western Lithuania
SE_Lit — South-eastern Lithuania
S_Both — South Bothnia (Swedes and Finns from south-western Finland.


Regions from which samples were obtained


Estonians Tartu M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Estonians Jõhvi M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Estonians Tapa M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Estonians Viljandi M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Estonians Lihula M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Estonians western Saarema M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Estonians Kihnu M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Estonians Pärnu M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Estonians Kilingi-Nõmme M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Estonians Vyru M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Estonians Rapla K. Mark, 1975
Estonians Haapsalu K.Mark, 1975
Estonians Lihula K.Mark, 1975
Estonians Audru K.Mark, 1975
Estonians Kilingi-Nõmme K.Mark, 1975
Estonians Karksi K.Mark, 1975
Estonians Otepää K.Mark, 1975
Estonians Võru K.Mark, 1975
Estonians Põlva K.Mark, 1975
Estonians Põltsamaa K. Mark, 1975
Estonians Rakvere K.Mark, 1975
Estonians Kohtla-Järve K.Mark, 1975
Estonians Iisaku K.Mark, 1975
Finns Askola K.Mark, 1975
Finns Mynämäki K.Mark, 1975
Finns Kokemäki K.Mark, 1975
Finns Kurikka K. Mark, 1975
Finns Hauho K. Mark, 1975
Finns Varsinais N.N.Cheboksarov 1941
Swedes Åland K.Mark, 1975
Swedes Närpes K.Mark, 1975
Swedes Liljendal K.Mark, 1975
Swedes Åland N.N.Cheboksarov 1941
Latvians Ventspils M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Aizpute M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Liepaja M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Dobele M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Limbaži M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Madona M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Viļāni M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Nereta M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Alsunga M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Cēsis M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Alūksne M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Latvians Jēkabpils R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Latvians Ilūkste R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Latvians Krāslava R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Latvians Ludza R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Latvians Rēzekne R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Latvians Balvi R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Latvians Gulbene R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Latvians Abrene R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Latvians Karsava R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Lithuanians Rokiškis M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Lithuanians Ukmerge M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Lithuanians Varėna M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Lithuanians Marijampolė M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Lithuanians Kelmė M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Lithuanians Silutes M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Lithuanians Kretinga M.V.Vitov et al., 1959
Lithuanians Kedainiai R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Lithuanians Panevėžys R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Lithuanians Švenčionys R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Lithuanians Anykščiai R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Lithuanians Schirwindt (Kutuzovo, Kaliningrad region) R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Lithuanians Dūkštas R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Lithuanians Eišiškės R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Lithuanians Alytus R.Ya.Denisova, 1958
Lithuanians Lazdijai R.Ya.Denisova, 1958



PCA based on data https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K3bSMell2zDc6tpSc0W2twtjXRLOiOJaZEZRCOFZlY8/edit?pli=1#gid=0


http://oi58.tinypic.com/2nr3rli.jpg

[Harkonnen]

You probably very glad to Germanics and especially Swedes for gave these "stunning" lookings to you guys :rolleyes:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-23-2015/SER8qE.gif


Mother Russia gave them stunning looks. All IE came from Russia including Estonians, Finns and Hungarians, and Turkic.

https://i.imgflip.com/py22j.gif

[Mario M.]

I can confirm this. there's more of a Scandinavian Germanic look in Estonians and more East Baltic Finnic look in Finns, that some Russians have it, because (see below)



totally agree

To be honest I was surprised to see Estonians as more Scandi looking. I thought Estonia would have more East-Baltids than Finland since it's closer to Russia. It just happened to be the other way around.

[glass]

THere was a thread with finnish athletes, about 30-35% of them could pass in Russia, i mean they would not look foreign at all. Also popular on this forum stereotype about blond nordic finns is kinda silly.
Finns can look like this
http://s17.postimg.org/h3e0kdf3z/snor_sparv.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
or this
http://s28.postimg.org/f8vp4682l/Litti_jari_litmanen_14197277_725_1023.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
or this
http://s17.postimg.org/swgf2c0xr/female_finland_fans.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[Freeroostah]

Russians for 3 reasons.
1) Haplogroup N is very common in North-West Russia.
2) Finnish people originate from Northern Russian steppes.
3) Many Russians are actually Slavicized Finno-Ugric people.

[Vorg]

Russians for 3 reasons.
1) Haplogroup N is very common in North-West Russia.
2) Finnish people originate from Northern Russian steppes.
3) Many Russians are actually Slavicized Finno-Ugric people.

1) Haplogroup N1C in North-West Russia (Pskov oblast) - 15,8 - 28%.
2) Northern Russian steppes? What is it?? :confused:
3) Every ethnos consists of many ethnic and racial components. And one more thing - Tavastians did not participate in Russian ethnogenesis.

And the most important thing - there is no correlation between y-dna, mtdna and phenotype. Finnish people (Tavastians) absollutelly different from Russians by cephalometric and anthropometric parameters.

[ius semper]

what makes you think fins are distant from swedes culturally? I don't understand. They are not, they are quite close actually.

Why? Their languages are not even from the same family (finnish is finno-ugric and swedish is indoeuropean and then germanic)

[Antimage]

Why? Their languages are not even from the same family (finnish is finno-ugric and swedish is indoeuropean and then germanic)

Since when language = culture? Finland is culturally closest to Scandinavians, what cultural traits do they share with siberians? Hungarians are too finno ugric and they are similar to the countries around them.

[Harkonnen]

So, for the second time, the Pharisees
summoned the man who had been blind and said:

"Speak the truth before God.
We know this fellow is a sinner."

"Whether or not he is a sinner, I do not know."
the man replied.

"All I know is this:
once I was blind and now I can see."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjF57zEbxpI

[Anthropos]

Is the population of finland genetically closer to its western neighbour or to the russian federation? Discuss

Swedish Finns are closer to Swedes, of course. Fennic Finns are closer to other Uralic groups such as those which exist in Russia.

Finland is politically close to Sweden but that is a different matter altogether. The root of that is in the fact that Finland was a part of Sweden. Still to this day, it has not fennicised Swedish culture in any way.

[Antimage]

Swedish Finns are closer to Swedes, of course. Fennic Finns are closer to other Uralic groups such as those which exist in Russia.

Finland is politically close to Sweden but that is a different matter altogether. The root of that is in the fact that Finland was a part of Sweden. Still to this day, it has not fennicised Swedish culture in any way.

Finns are not close to finno-ugrics in Russia nor racially neither culturally. It's just a language group.

[Anthropos]

Finns are not close to finno-ugrics in Russia nor racially neither culturally. It's just a language group.

They aren't close to Swedes either. Italians are about as close.

[Harkonnen]

http://i.imgur.com/nNthiEJ.gif?noredirect

[Antimage]

They aren't close to Swedes either. Italians are about as close.

I doubt that but ok, whatever.

[Harkonnen]

I doubt that but ok, whatever.

Bye byeh fucker


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ogYpzE_It0

[Anthropos]

The hurt feelings when you're mentioned in the same sentence as Italians. Italians are nice folks, in my opinion.

[Harkonnen]

The hurt feelings when you're mentioned in the same sentence as Italians. Italians are nice folks, in my opinion.

A lovely bunch.

[Anthropos]

A lovely bunch.

Doesn't explain your shitting yourself like you did. Why are you offended when the simple truth is told, that Swedes and Fennic Finns aren't close? I have much respect for Finns, but I'm not pretending that we are genetically close.

[Rugevit]

East Slavs - Russsians, Ukrainians, Belarusians.

Ukrainains and Belarsians troll Russians saying they are related tot Finno-Ugric peopels. So many Russians get upset about being related to the Finns. So many Russians want to be more Slavic than Ukrinians and Belarusians. ;)

[Rugevit]

Russians want to be more Slavic than Ukrianians or Belarusians. ;)

I have to say this is the most I like about the Russians. Their pride of being Slavic. :)

[Äijä]

1) Haplogroup N1C in North-West Russia (Pskov oblast) - 15,8 - 28%.
2) Northern Russian steppes? What is it?? :confused:
3) Every ethnos consists of many ethnic and racial components. And one more thing - Tavastians did not participate in Russian ethnogenesis.

And the most important thing - there is no correlation between y-dna, mtdna and phenotype. Finnish people (Tavastians) absollutelly different from Russians by cephalometric and anthropometric parameters.

Tavastians aka West Finns are in great majority a mix of Western Baltic Finns (N1c VL29) and Germanics ( I1 L22).
Similar population mix can be found in Svealand that needs its age calculated.

Tavastians expanded in to the East and contributed to the Russian etnogenesis, as did other peoples, denying it is hilarious.

Phenotypes are shared by populations that have had connections for a long time, Finland shares them with Sweden and Russia both.

[Antimage]

Doesn't explain your shitting yourself like you did. Why are you offended when the simple truth is told, that Swedes and Fennic Finns aren't close? I have much respect for Finns, but I'm not pretending that we are genetically close.

You are distant from Finns as much as your distant from Germans. Finns are far closer to Swedes than they are to Italians.

I don't understand why people try so hard to link finns with finno ugrics in Russia when they only thing they have in common is the language they speak.


http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png

[Äijä]

THere was a thread with finnish athletes, about 30-35% of them could pass in Russia, i mean they would not look foreign at all. Also popular on this forum stereotype about blond nordic finns is kinda silly.
Finns can look like this
http://s17.postimg.org/h3e0kdf3z/snor_sparv.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
or this
http://s28.postimg.org/f8vp4682l/Litti_jari_litmanen_14197277_725_1023.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
or this
http://s17.postimg.org/swgf2c0xr/female_finland_fans.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

First one is an Finland Swede, that look is more common for them.

I even have a theory, Sami where among the people settled in Finland from Sweden or the Sami in Finland assimilated in to the Swedes.

[Äijä]

You are distant from Finns as much as your distant from Germans. Finns are far closer to Swedes than they are to Italians.

I don't understand why people try so hard to link finns with finno ugrics in Russia when they only thing they have in common is the language they speak.


http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png

The DNA trace connects Finns to the Volga Finns, they have since mixed with Slavs and Turkic peoples but the trace is there.

[Äijä]

Why? Their languages are not even from the same family (finnish is finno-ugric and swedish is indoeuropean and then germanic)

Finland and Sweden where the same country for 700 years, they are the closest ethnicity culturally since the Iron Age at least.

[Äijä]

Swedish Finns are closer to Swedes, of course. Fennic Finns are closer to other Uralic groups such as those which exist in Russia.

Finland is politically close to Sweden but that is a different matter altogether. The root of that is in the fact that Finland was a part of Sweden. Still to this day, it has not fennicised Swedish culture in any way.

The connections go so far back that you cant possibly know what part of Germanic culture is influenced by Baltic Finns.

[Anthropos]

You are distant from Finns as much as your distant from Germans. Finns are far closer to Swedes than they are to Italians.

My ancestry is all Swedish, and by genetic testing Finland is not in my top 10 countries of "ancestry". Neither is Italy, for that matter.

[Anthropos]

Finland and Sweden where the same country for 700 years, they are the closest ethnicity culturally since the Iron Age at least.

Total lie. Total bore for a thread too.

[Jana]

What one forumite Finn wrote about themself....

''Genetically speaking most of our population (especially in Eastern Finland) are very isolated. But even their genomes are way closer to certain Indo-European populations (still, barely any overlaps) than Saami in the north or our linguistic relatives near Volga. The gene studies conducted during the last 20 years or so suggest that after the Ice Age people came here from three different directions, mixed with eachother, went through a bottleneck during a famine or something and emerged as our ancestors. But then again people from SW Finland are genetically speaking further apart from people in NE Finland than what Swedes and Britts are from eachother. Mystery remains.''

? Is it true ?

Is he a typical Finn ? (Kimi Raikonen)
http://i.imgur.com/tz3V98S.jpg

[Äijä]

My ancestry is all Swedish, and by genetic testing Finland is not in my top 10 countries of "ancestry". Neither is Italy, for that matter.

Where are you from in Sweden?

[Anthropos]

Where are you from in Sweden?

Why should I answer your personal questions when you lie like that.

[Dombra]

Swedish Finns are closer to Swedes, of course. Fennic Finns are closer to other Uralic groups such as those which exist in Russia.

No

Finns may form a separate cluster but Swedes and Finns are way more similar than Finns and other Uralics in Russia. There is no backup for other claims so I do not even have to mention newer mixture (Swedes in Finland, Finns forcefully integrated in Swedish societies). Claiming that Finns are culturally closer to Volga Finnics, Perms, Ob-Ugrics etc. than Swedes is equally wrong

Finland Swedes have mostly mixed ancestry. Very few of my own Finland Swedish relatives look more than half Swedish

[Rugevit]

Are Finns one of the most concerned group of people in Europe about their origins?

[Äijä]

What one forumite Finn wrote about themself....

''Genetically speaking most of our population (especially in Eastern Finland) are very isolated. But even their genomes are way closer to certain Indo-European populations (still, barely any overlaps) than Saami in the north or our linguistic relatives near Volga. The gene studies conducted during the last 20 years or so suggest that after the Ice Age people came here from three different directions, mixed with eachother, went through a bottleneck during a famine or something and emerged as our ancestors. But then again people from SW Finland are genetically speaking further apart from people in NE Finland than what Swedes and Britts are from eachother. Mystery remains.''

? Is it true ?

Is he a typical Finn ? (Kimi Raikonen)
http://i.imgur.com/tz3V98S.jpg

It is true, East Finns became major part of the modern Finnish ethnogenesis after the fall of Novgorod.

[Anthropos]

Feeichy, southwestern Finns are ethnically Swedish descended.

[Rugevit]

Claiming that Finns are culturally closer to Volga Finnics, Perms, Ob-Ugrics etc. than Swedes is equally wrong

Why? Eastern Finns are genetically closer to some Volgaic Finns than to Swedes afaik.

[Äijä]

Are Finns one of the most concerned group of people in Europe about their origins?

Personally I am not concerned, I am interested in informing people and finding out for myself.

Who where the Baltic Finns that moved in to the Baltic Sea region is the big question.

[Äijä]

Why? Eastern Finns are genetically closer to some Volgaic Finns than to Swedes afaik.

Because Finnish culture is basically identical to the Swedish culture, it was the same country for 700 years and the close connections go back to the Bronze Age.

[Harkonnen]

Äijä, I must say your insecurity is hilarious to observe. A true Frenchman.

[Rugevit]

Personally I am not concerned, I am interested in informing people and finding out for myself.

Who where the Baltic Finns that moved in to the Baltic Sea region is the big question.

I think Baltic Finns are indigenous to North-eastern Europe having minor Siberian admixture . Those people who have siberian admixture brought Uralic language and N1c1 to Finland. I am only speculating here.

[Äijä]

Feeichy, southwestern Finns are ethnically Swedish descended.

Not true, some of the Swedish Finns yes, but not for the big majority.

SW Finns are mainly a mix of ancient Baltic Finns and Germanics but majority of the I1 paternal lines come from Denmark-North Germany region, not from Sweden in historical times.
They are as old as the Germanic ethnogenesis, timeline is the same for Baltic Finns.

[Äijä]

I think Baltic Finns are indigenous to North-eastern Europe having minor Siberian admixture . Those people who have siberian admixture brought Uralic language and N1c1 to Finland. I am only speculating here.

The age of the haplos and the timing of the spread of the Finnic language place the time of arrival in the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age.

Baltic Finns arrived after the IE speakers.

[Äijä]

Äijä, I must say your insecurity is hilarious to observe. A true Frenchman.

Insecurity? Just being honest about what the facts are at this time. I am a Tavastian mut, you are a Karelian and more pure as an ancient Baltic Finnic.

[Äijä]

Total lie. Total bore for a thread too.

Where do you base your claim? The material culture is basically identical for example.

[Rugevit]

Baltic Finns arrived after the IE speakers.

Maybe. Many Estonians will not agree with you though.

[Hevo]

East Slavs - Russsians, Ukrainians, Belarusians.

Ukrainains and Belarsians troll Russians saying they are related tot Finno-Ugric peopels. So many Russians get upset about being related to the Finns. So many Russians want to be more Slavic than Ukrinians and Belarusians. ;)

Depends which Russians we are talking about. Russians near the Belarusian-Ukrainian border have little to zero Finno-Ugric admixture.

[Rugevit]

Depends which Russians we are talking about. Russians near the Belarusian-Ukrainian border have little to zero Finno-Ugric admixture.

Russians living in western Russia is a marginal group. We're talking about all Russians.

[Äijä]

Why should I answer your personal questions when you lie like that.

Lie? Please be more specific.

You might be some Geat with Walloon blood for all I know.

[Äijä]

Maybe. Many Estonians will not agree with you though.

These are the scientific facts, I dont care who I piss of with facts.

[Hevo]

Russians living in western Russia is a marginal group. We're talking about all Russians.

Fair enough, the more North/East you go the more Finno-Ugric admixture you will encounter.

[Anthropos]

Not true, some of the Swedish Finns yes, but not for the big majority.

SW Finns are mainly a mix of ancient Baltic Finns and Germanics but majority of the I1 paternal lines come from Denmark-North Germany region, not from Sweden in historical times.
They are as old as the Germanic ethnogenesis, timeline is the same for Baltic Finns.

Southwestern Finland and the coastal areas north of there were not settled by Fennic Finns originally, that's the point.

[Anthropos]

The material culture is basically identical for example.

You know nothing about this apparently. Someone said you are a Frenchman, any truth to that?

[Anthropos]

Lie? Please be more specific.

You might be some Geat with Walloon blood for all I know.

No Walloon ancestors. You are nothing but a troll.

[Harkonnen]

Southwestern Finland and the coastal areas north of there were not settled by Fennic Finns originally, that's the point.

Just get the fuck out of this thread wanker.

Anyway.

Here is a pic of Finland-Swede and West Finn. Guess which is which

http://im.mtv.fi/image/5274074/landscape16_9/752/423/e816c3c3b2d59558e3833db2fd98c062/Uh/tuomas-seppanen-david-soderberg.jpg

[Äijä]

Southwestern Finland and the coastal areas north of there were not settled by Fennic Finns originally, that's the point.

True, but they where not Swedes.
They where ancient Germanics and the Tavastian ethnogenesis is the assimilation of those people in to the arriving Baltic Finns from modern day Estonia.

[Anthropos]

Just get the fuck out of this thread wanker.

Anyway.

Here is a pic of Finland-Swede and West Finn. Guess which is which

You get out. Stop wanking over those men. For your information, many people in southwestern Finland have intermixed. But that's not a reason to rewrite history, genetics or any other knowledge.

[Äijä]

No Walloon ancestors. You are nothing but a troll.

Svealand is 10-20% N1c, depending of the kommun in question, most did not arrive in the 1970s.

[Anthropos]

True, but they where not Swedes.
They where ancient Germanics and the Tavastian ethnogenesis is the assimilation of those people in to the arriving Baltic Finns from modern day Estonia.

There were no Swedes in the modern sense back then and you are only sidetracking. You didn't get a single thing straight in this discussion.

[Dombra]

No Walloon ancestors. You are nothing but a troll.

Calling Äijä a troll :picard2: Did your ancestors speak Danish a few centuries ago or why do you deny Finnish and Swedish closeness?

[Anthropos]

Calling Äijä a troll :picard2: Did your ancestors speak Danish a few centuries ago or why do you deny Finnish and Swedish closeness?

Not from Skåne. You are also a troll.

[Äijä]

You get out. Stop wanking over those men. For your information, many people in southwestern Finland have intermixed. But that's not a reason to rewrite history, genetics or any other knowledge.

Like people in Svealand are mixed? What percentage of Finns where in Stockholm when it was founded?

[Rugevit]

Russians near the Belarusian-Ukrainian border have little to zero Finno-Ugric admixture.

The Russians near Belarusian border have ancient Slavic genetic genes. These Russians began identifying themselves as Russian only in the last 150 years.

[Anthropos]

I'm not going to talk with any of you Fennic revisionists any more. I simply do not have time for all of your pack.

[Antimage]

The Russians near Belarusian border have ancient Slavic genetic genes. These Russians began identifying themselves as Russian only in the last 150 years.

What did they identify as before that?

[Dombra]

Not from Skåne. You are also a troll.

I am a troll, yes. That makes it even worse when I am the one who is able to actually able to understand that 1. Äijä is a quality member 2. you are wrong when it comes to this topic

[Rugevit]

What did they identify as before that?

Belarusians and before that Ruthenians.

[Harkonnen]

You get out. Stop wanking over those men. For your information, many people in southwestern Finland have intermixed. But that's not a reason to rewrite history, genetics or any other knowledge.

Why don't you just go wankin that French-Italian cock you love so much.

[Äijä]

Calling Äijä a troll :picard2: Did your ancestors speak Danish a few centuries ago or why do you deny Finnish and Swedish closeness?

My point also, the people from Skåne are recent additions to Sweden proper.
Svealand and Gotland have historically much more connections to Finland and Estonia than Southern Sweden had.

[Äijä]

I'm not going to talk with any of you Fennic revisionists any more. I simply do not have time for all of your pack.

What are the revisionist claims made here?

[Rugevit]

Belarusians and before that Ruthenians.

And before that people of the region were identifying themselves as Kriviches. To this day Latvians call Belarusians Baltkrievi. Gnezdovo necropolis near Smolensk is one of the largest Scandinavian-Slavic settlement in Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnezdovo

[Äijä]

And before that people of the region were identifying themselves as Kriviches. To this day Latvians call Belarusians Baltkrievi. Gnezdovo necropolis near Smolensk is one of the largest Scandinavian-Slavic settlement in Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnezdovo

The objects found there are also similar to those found in Finland and Estonia, naming a site purely Scandinavian-Slavic seems weird as we know some Baltic Finnic paternal lines spread along those trade routes.

[Rugevit]

The objects found there are also similar to those found in Finland and Estonia, naming a site purely Scandinavian-Slavic seems weird as we know some Baltic Finnic paternal lines spread along those trade routes.

There were no Baltic Finns in the regions in significant numbers. Although people speaking different languages could have passed through the region.

[Äijä]

There were no Baltic Finns in the regions in significant numbers. Although people speaking different languages could have passed through the region.

Well I would guess majority of the people where Slavs, counting the percentage of merchant/mercenary ethnicities is almost impossible other than looking at ancient and moderns haplos.
Are there many Scandinavian orginated haplos in the region today?

[Rugevit]

Well I would guess majority of the people where Slavs, counting the percentage of merchant/mercenary ethnicities is almost impossible other than looking at ancient and moderns haplos.
Are there many Scandinavian orginated haplos in the region today?

There an't many Scandinavian haplos found in the region. The regions has ancient Slavic genes though.

[Russki]

Neither.

Intermediate population between Swedes and Russians are Estonians.

Finns live considerably farther North than Swedes and Russians, more shifted towards Sami people.

[Östsvensk]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Aaro-Tupasela/publication/309429388/figure/fig1/AS:421420250222592@1477485825011/SNP-Based-PCA-of-2-457-European-Individuals-from-23-Subpopulations-Lao-et-al-2008.png

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/SNP-Based-PCA-of-2-457-European-Individuals-from-23-Subpopulations-Lao-et-al-2008_fig1_309429388

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/European_genetic_structure_%28based_on_SNPs%29_PC_ analysis.png

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005472

[Komintasavalta]

Neither.

Intermediate population between Swedes and Russians are Estonians.

Finns live considerably farther North than Swedes and Russians, more shifted towards Sami people.

Estonians are not woggy enough to be Swede-shifted from a Russian point of view. On G25, Swedes are closer to Bosnians than to Estonians. Northwestern Europe became agricultural earlier than Northeastern Europe, so it was more woggified by the original MENA invasion of Europe.

Actually the intermediate population between Russians and Swedes is more like Ukrainians or Poles. Below I calculated the average coordinates of Russian population averages in G25, where I excluded Arkhangelsk Russians. Then I selected populations where the ratio of the distance to Russians divided by the distance to Swedes was between one third and two thirds. Then I sorted the populations based on the lowest combined distance to Swedes and Russians. Poles ranked first and Ukrainians ranked second:


$ curl -Lso mas 'https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y'
$ tav()(awk '{n[$1]++;for(i=2;i<=NF;i++){a[$1,i]+=$i}}END{for(i in n){o=i;for(j=2;j<=NF;j++)o=o FS sprintf("%f",a[i,j]/n[i]);print o}}' "FS=${1-$'\t'}")
$ dist0()(awk -F, 'NR==FNR{for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)a[i]=$i;next}$1{s=0;for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)s+=($i-a[i])^2;printf"%f %s\n",s^.5,$1}' "$2" "$1")
$ paste -d' ' <(dist0 mas <(grep Russian mas|grep -Ev 'Leshukonsky|Krasnoborsky|Pinezhsky|Pinega'|sed 's/_[^,]*//'|tav ,)) <(dist0 mas <(grep Swedish mas))|awk '{print$1+$3,$3?$1/$3:"NA",$2}'|sort -n|awk '$2>=(1/3)&&$2<=(2/3)'
0.068296 0.51661 Polish
0.073266 0.33456 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.081309 0.625855 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.084368 0.33754 Lithuanian_PA
0.087135 0.589591 Moldovan_o
0.090355 0.435939 Estonian
0.090748 0.364242 Lithuanian_VA
0.096157 0.531821 Cossack_Kuban
0.098023 0.43868 Moksha
0.09978 0.459647 Russian_Kostroma
0.101141 0.613377 Ingrian
0.101833 0.44528 Lithuanian_VZ
0.103211 0.388252 Lithuanian_RA
0.10949 0.480955 Erzya
0.113743 0.465798 Lithuanian_SZ
0.113888 0.50147 Lithuanian_PZ
0.117152 0.481661 Latvian
0.11891 0.565388 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.127596 0.638767 Karelian
0.134887 0.615491 Vepsian
0.153872 0.655072 Russian_Pinega

[Harkonnen]

In picture B, Poles cluster indeed Between Swedes and Russians. Ukrainians look South Slav shifted Russians, and North Russian sample looks extremely different from regular Russian and closer to Finnics.

https://i.imgur.com/w23T5Bz.png

[Russki]

On G25, Swedes are closer to Bosnians than to Estonians

There is an artificial genetic gap between Northwest and Northeast Europe. Could be due to isolation and inbreeding.

Unless you unironically think that Swedes look more like Bosnians than like Estonians.

[Lemminkäinen]

I am very close Southwestern Finns by genetics. My distances from closest to more distant

North Swedes
Russians
Estonians
North Russians, excluding Finno-Ugric people
Swedes

The distance to the first two is due to the Siberian admixture and the Baltic/NW-Euro ratio.

I don't know where on the list other Finno-Ugric people would be, but not close people listed above.

[Russki]

I am very close Southwestern Finns by genetics. My distances from closest to more distant

North Swedes
Russians
Estonians
North Russians, excluding Finno-Ugric people
Swedes

The distance to the first two is due to the Siberian admixture and the Baltic/NW-Euro ratio.

I don't know where on the list other Finno-Ugric people would be, but not close people listed above.

https://sun9-33.userapi.com/impg/q9BWoTIWpIgk64KpyksRcoDWEqdulNBBhatHCA/7m5hnrjNrxY.jpg?size=1512x581&quality=96&sign=1140a3770d509cb3dc6e4dc0b62ba2a9&type=album

[Borealis]

In picture B, Poles cluster indeed Between Swedes and Russians. Ukrainians look South Slav shifted Russians, and North Russian sample looks extremely different from regular Russian and closer to Finnics.

https://i.imgur.com/w23T5Bz.png

I think aside from those from far western Ukraine like Lviv and Carpathians, Ukrainians are effectively identical to south/central Russians.

[Borealis]

As for the OP question, Finns seem to have both Scandinavian and Balto-Slavic drift as their base ancestry. And they have Uralic ancestry on top of it. I think we could say that they are closer to Russians overall.

Distance to: Finnish_Southwest
0.04672561 Russian_Orel
0.04864826 Russian_Pinega
0.05275173 Swedish

Distance to: Finnish_Southeast
0.04760532 Russian_Pinega
0.05394896 Russian_Orel
0.05983007 Swedish

Distance to: Finnish_North
0.02918512 Russian_Pinega
0.06047297 Russian_Orel
0.07370609 Swedish

Distance to: Finnish_East
0.03317665 Russian_Pinega
0.06419178 Russian_Orel
0.07775149 Swedish

Distance to: Finnish_Central
0.03553549 Russian_Pinega
0.05213193 Russian_Orel
0.06160155 Swedish