Turanids...

[Tomasz]

First of all, I want to say, that I was always more familiar with typically European races. It's because I am European and I am more interested in my own kind. That's why my knowledge about types of non-European origin is very limited. Keep this on mind and forgive me any trivial mistakes.

When I was browsing Richard McCulloh's website called Racial Compact (http://racialcompact.com/), I found statistics about "estimated racial composition and Nordish percentage of indigenous European populations". Data for Hungary was very interesting for me, quote:

Hungary = 35% Neo-Danubian (most common in the northeast), 25% Turanid (of Magyar derivation), 20% Dinaric (most common in the southwest), 15% Alpine (most common in the south), 2% Nordic, 2% Noric, 1% East Mediterranean = 39% Nordish (2% central and 37% periphery types)
Beside usage of term "Neo-Danubian", which is basically not viable, one thing caught my eye. I've used bolded font, to indicate it.

Judging from this fragment, Magyars were Turanids in race. And those people, who resemble such type today, are derived from these Finno-Ugrian invaders. I wasn't too familiar with such "exotic" (for me) racial types, so I googled it. That's, what I found on Wikipedia (I know, not the best source of information):

Turanid is a term intended to cover populations of Central Asia associated with the spread of the Turanian languages, that is the combination of the Uralic and Altaic families (hence also "Ural-Altaic race"), in human genetics, physical anthropology and historically in scientific racism.

The latter usage implies the existence of a Turanid racial type or "minor race", subtype of the Europid race with Mongoloid admixtures, situated at the boundary of the distribution of the Mongolid and Europid "great races". The idea of a Turanid race came to play a role of some significance in Pan-Turkism or "Turanism" in the late 19th to 20th century. A "Turkish race" was proposed as an Europid subtype in European literature of the period.
This quote implies that Turanids are some intermediate form between Caucasoids and Mongoloids, which was probably derived from mixing between Caucasoid and Mongoloid populations, with former element being rather dominant.
It also implies, that this race is typical for Turkish peoples.

It seems that Richard McCulloh suggests that 25% of Hungarians still resemble their Magyar ancestors, having these quasi-Mongoloid, Turanid traits. I asked about it my friends from Hungary. One confirmed such revelations - said that some Hungarians indeed look slightly "Mongoloid" and are of Magyar origin. Other friend from Hungary on the other hand, said that this "Mongoloid" element is long-time gone and dead. So I had to find another source of information. :)

I've turned to classic book written by Carleton Stevens Coon called "The Races Of Europe". I've discovered here some additional explantation to this "Magyar derived" 25% of population, namely:

Bartucz finds about 20 per cent of the Magyars to show evidence of Asiatic Turkish blood, in the relatively non-mongoloid sense, while about 5 per cent manifest clearly recognizable mongoloid features. These Asiatic elements are not evenly distributed, but are concentrated in the purer Hungarian pastoral population, while the Turkish element is said to be especially visible in the nobility. The 5 per cent which remains after Bartucz�s partitionment must include Nordics and Norics, with the latter also forming part of the Dinaric allotment, as well as a few brunet Mediterraneans

On the other hand, in SNPA glossary, under "Turanid" entry, it's written:

Central Asiatic type, named (and later renamed) by Deniker (type touranien). In von Eickstedt's typology, Pamirids signify relatively unmixed Turanids, whereas Aralids are Turanids showing Mongolid influence of the Tungid variety. For some anthropologists, the term still applies in a less specific fashion to Europid-Mongolid mixed populations of Central Asia.
There are 2 conclusions to my mind:
a) Pamirids are those "20 percent of Magyars" which have Turkish influences much more pronounced,
b) Aralids are those "5 percent of Magyars" which have much more Mongoloid influences.

Could someone explain me exactly, how it really was with those Magyars and present-day Hungarians in terms of racial makeup and extra-European admixture?

How much people in Hungary show traits of non-European origin, how strong this element is?

[Agrippa]

The element is much weaker in reality because the Nationalist Hungarians tried to prove their "Asiatic ancestry" by highly overestimating the real Mongoloid/Aralid influence, for which they used a wide variety of brachycephalic variants no other anthropologist would have considered "Turanid", yet really Mongoloid influenced. More on that later, I'm in hurry right now.

[Tomasz]

Okay, when you'll have time, feel free to add more info. ;)

[Pallantides]

The element is much weaker in reality because the Nationalist Hungarians tried to prove their "Asiatic ancestry" by highly overestimating the real Mongoloid/Aralid influence, for which they used a wide variety of brachycephalic variants no other anthropologist would have considered "Turanid", yet really Mongoloid influenced. More on that later, I'm in hurry right now.

Also genetics have pretty much proven that majority of Hungarians are just central Europeans.

[Agrippa]

Also genetics have pretty much proven that majority of Hungarians are just central Europeans.

Of course, genetics made a final end to this "Magyar-Turanid" continuation theory.

The Pamirids = Europid part are rather brachycephalised Irano-Mediterranoids anyway which approach a Dinaro-Alpinoid spectrum.

The Aralid = Mongoloid part is mostly the result of a mixture between Tungid and the various Europids of Central Asia.

Here Aralids (Tungid w. Europid):
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7113/turaniden2.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/turaniden2.jpg/)

The first one is a good example for a Pamirid (real Europid Turanids):
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8766/turaniden1.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/turaniden1.jpg/)

[Alka]

Of course, genetics made a final end to this "Magyar-Turanid" continuation theory.

The Pamirids = Europid part are rather brachycephalised Irano-Mediterranoids anyway which approach a Dinaro-Alpinoid spectrum.

The Aralid = Mongoloid part is mostly the result of a mixture between Tungid and the various Europids of Central Asia.

Here Aralids (Tungid w. Europid):
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7113/turaniden2.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/turaniden2.jpg/)

The first one is a good example for a Pamirid (real Europid Turanids):
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8766/turaniden1.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/turaniden1.jpg/)

Is Pamirid 100% Europoid? How classify a Central Asian with dominance of Europoid components and slight mongoloid admixture? Is he "Pamirid"? Or slight mongoloid admixture automatically makes him "Aralid"?

Pamirids themselves are so different ---some are Asian Alpines and others look Irano-Afghan. Pictures of Pamirids you posted, show some slight mongoloid features.

For example how will you classify President of Uzbekistan Islam Karimov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Islamkarimov_Uz.jpg
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Файл:Islam_karimov_cropped.jpg

(Islam Karimov looks so similar to Robert Gates, just compare

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Файл:Islam_karimov_cropped.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Robert_Gates,_official_DoD_photo_portrait,_20 06.jpg)

How to classify Rashid Dostum? Pamirid or Aralid?
http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/multimedia/archive/00021/abdul-55525-0_368_21235w.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/world/0904/afghan.whos.who/media/t1land.rashid.dostum.gi.jpg

ANd how to classify this guy from Tajikistan?
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/1.html
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/3.html
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/5.html
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/2.html

[rockstar]

yes, its true we Hungarians are the direct descendents of the Huns, however, in the 12 century most of us were exterminated (about 80% of our total population), so king béla the 4th called in many slavs and germans to repopulate Hungary. so now most Hungrians have lost their asiatic features.

[aherne]

Of course, genetics made a final end to this "Magyar-Turanid" continuation theory.

The Pamirids = Europid part are rather brachycephalised Irano-Mediterranoids anyway which approach a Dinaro-Alpinoid spectrum.

The Aralid = Mongoloid part is mostly the result of a mixture between Tungid and the various Europids of Central Asia.

Here Aralids (Tungid w. Europid):
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7113/turaniden2.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/turaniden2.jpg/)

The first one is a good example for a Pamirid (real Europid Turanids):
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8766/turaniden1.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/turaniden1.jpg/)

Hungarians can confirm these people do not look like hungarians AT ALL. Mongoloid element among Hungarians, usually diluted into turanid form, is due to heavy mixture with Turkic peoples before entering Hungary, so much that out of types inherited from early Magyars, Turanid seems more common than Uralic. Hungarians from Transylvania seem the most pure, since they haven't mixed with Romanians at all until very recent times, mainly due to religious differences. Hungarians of plains seem much more mixed with German and Slavic. A quarter even have German/Slavic last names, so their ancestors were recent non-Hungarians. Very few Hungarians have Romanian last names, on the other hand, since very little admixture has taken place until 20th century. If you truly want to see true Magyars, visit the Szekeler ethnic island.

[Agrippa]

Is Pamirid 100% Europoid? How classify a Central Asian with dominance of Europoid components and slight mongoloid admixture? Is he "Pamirid"? Or slight mongoloid admixture automatically makes him "Aralid"?

Genetically Pamirids have oftentimes slight Mongoloid admixture too, but that's beyond recognition racially in most cases. Obviously the borderline is fluent for Turanids between Pamirid and Aralid.


Pamirids themselves are so different ---some are Asian Alpines and others look Irano-Afghan. Pictures of Pamirids you posted, show some slight mongoloid features.

the first one is the best Pamirid standard type example imo.


For example how will you classify President of Uzbekistan Islam Karimov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Islamkarimov_Uz.jpg
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Файл:Islam_karimov_cropped.jpg

Pred. Asian Alpinoid going after those pictures.


How to classify Rashid Dostum? Pamirid or Aralid?
http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/multimedia/archive/00021/abdul-55525-0_368_21235w.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/world/0904/afghan.whos.who/media/t1land.rashid.dostum.gi.jpg

Pamirid mostly.


ANd how to classify this guy from Tajikistan?
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/1.html
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/3.html
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/5.html
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/2.html

Indo-Pamirid + Tungid (Mongolid).

[Alka]

ANd how to classify this guy from Tajikistan?
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/1.html
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/3.html
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/5.html
http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/2.html

Indo-Pamirid + Tungid (Mongolid).

What is Indo-Pamirid?
And which of his features are Tungid?

IMO this guy looks like an Asian Alpine- the type described by C.Coon
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII19.htm

And how Alpines appeared in the heart of Asia........?:mmmm:

[Alka]

yes, its true we Hungarians are the direct descendents of the Huns, however, in the 12 century most of us were exterminated (about 80% of our total population), so king béla the 4th called in many slavs and germans to repopulate Hungary. so now most Hungrians have lost their asiatic features.
And don't forget that Huns absorbed many Europoid peoples during their trip from Asia to Europe. So, when Huns came to Europe, they could look very different from original Huns...

But Asiatic feature still present in some Hungarians....

Hungarian born George Friedman
http://images.smh.com.au/ftsmh/ffximage/2009/05/21/georgefriedman_narrowweb__300x379,0.jpg
http://hydeparkblvd.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/George_Friedman1-291x300.jpg

[Tomasz]

And how Alpines appeared in the heart of Asia........?

Because Alpinids are product of process called alpinization. It can affect populations who are not akin to themselves and result in parallel evolution. It's wrong to think that all Alpinids come from the same parent population. There's nothing strange that two populations isolated from themselves developed similiar traits because of alpinization process.

After SNPA:

Alpinization - an evolutionary process or tendency involving reduction, brachycephalization and infantilization, possibly an adaption to a low energy, sedentary existence.

[The Ripper]

And don't forget that Huns absorbed many Europoid peoples during their trip from Asia to Europe. So, when Huns came to Europe, they could look very different from original Huns...

But Asiatic feature still present in some Hungarians....

Hungarian born George Friedman
http://images.smh.com.au/ftsmh/ffximage/2009/05/21/georgefriedman_narrowweb__300x379,0.jpg
http://hydeparkblvd.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/George_Friedman1-291x300.jpg

George Friedman is hardly of Magyar stock. ;)

[EvilDave]

What are the features of this race ? and their traits ?
Can you also post some photos of Turanid (famous) people ?

[bluesky]

this turk is a turanid

[EvilDave]

this turk is a turanid

Can you make other examples with other photos (preferably with famous people) ?

[Agrippa]

Also compare with this thread about the Tajiks:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32370

[Arrow Cross]

Turanism is more a historical, cultural and traditional term than a modern genetic reality in 2011's Hungary. As another poster stated above, the original gene stock (of the Magyars, almost certainly a "brother nation", sort of a second wave to the Huns) saw severe depletitions at various historical events; be them short and bloody, like the Tatar invasion in 1241-42, or long and exhausting, like 300 years of Turkish wars.

Yet, even though being situated at the fertile basin-crossroads of a continent means more significant genetic change, Hungarian genes and culture proved to be strong enough to assimilate incoming Germanic and Slavic elements, retain uniqueness and not submerge. Here is an article with insight.

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/hungarians.html

[Sylvanus]

yes, its true we Hungarians are the direct descendents of the Huns, however, in the 12 century most of us were exterminated (about 80% of our total population), so king béla the 4th called in many slavs and germans to repopulate Hungary. so now most Hungrians have lost their asiatic features.


What is your evidence for this? Are the hungarian nationalist historicians whos described many ancient magyar graves as slavic coz they was not mongolid and they were without wealthy supplement? Or same historicians whos describe the hungarian language as ancinet constantly turkish language side by side without elementary education the nowadays hungarian would not to understand (!) the 200 years old scripts? I wrote understand, they could read but not understand it moreover they not understand a medieval oldmagyar language.

F.E.: do you understand this idiom: se té se tova without education or google usage? Is this not a rural idiom but simple an archaic but in the old times very commonly idiom. Probably you and your gfriend and your friend and your parents and your enviroments do not use this or similar things.

Under the Mongol Raid (Tatárjárás) probably the 50-65% of original inhabitants of Carpathian-basin were enslaved or massacred but we donno that how much part of this was the pre-roman celtic and illyric survivor, german, slav, avar, bolgar, kabar, pecheneg, cuman or ancient magyars. Moreover you forgot that under the Turkish Realm the turks enslaved or massacred app. the half population.

Furthermore these mongolid-mix elements of modern hungarians or ancinet magyars are/were a subjectioned auxiliary peoples of the original finno-ugrian hungarians whos speak an unkown but probably more finno-ugric language.

[Sylvanus]

The textbook turanid and pamirid individuals are very rare among the modern hungarian of course. The turanid+european europid or pamirid+european europid mix are rather common.

Pamirid:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7165/6516282193_f312c689a8_m.jpg

Turanid:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7028/6516304791_a90ea7e0c9.jpg

Turanid+mongolid:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7010/6516282095_191d612699.jpg

Turanid on the far left turanid+pamirid on the left and a pamirid+baltid mix on the far right:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7175/6506355473_4fe5fa09d4_b.jpg

[Sylvanus]

Turanism is more a historical, cultural and traditional term than a modern genetic reality in 2011's Hungary. As another poster stated above, the original gene stock (of the Magyars, almost certainly a "brother nation", sort of a second wave to the Huns) saw severe depletitions at various historical events; be them short and bloody, like the Tatar invasion in 1241-42, or long and exhausting, like 300 years of Turkish wars.

Yet, even though being situated at the fertile basin-crossroads of a continent means more significant genetic change, Hungarian genes and culture proved to be strong enough to assimilate incoming Germanic and Slavic elements, retain uniqueness and not submerge. Here is an article with insight.

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/hungarians.html

Lol, szeklers are turkish auxiliary people originally and they kept tally on themselvez as szeklers and not hungarians till the late nineteen century and before they were a different nation in Transylvania like the transylvanian-saxons. Moreover their languages is so different and not so mutually intelligible with hungarian. The reason is the difference not coz some hungarian dialects have archaic features like the szekler's language. Furthermore they have an unique rune-like alphabet what is directe connect to the old turkish alphabet and we haven't got any evidence that this alphabet was in use outside of Transylvania but the szeklers used it in the early modern aera too and as ornament they use it till the late nineteens.

Other loveling thing when the hungarian nationalist historicians use modern hungarian wors and idioms to find relatives to the hungarian languages. F.E. they fascinated by the Khazar subgroup madjars coz it very similar to the modenr hungarian magyar ethnonym side by side originally form of magyar was mogyeri probably.

In this way it is not acceptable that those scholars use szeklers genes moreover genes from the age of ancient magyars without evidence thaht those people spoke finno-ugric or turkish or who know it language. However this distortions are very typical of hungarian nationalist's researches.

Furthermore the prehistoric research can be very incoherent that I suggest to everybody go slow with these information and do not take these for granted.

[Arrow Cross]

Moreover their languages is so different and not so mutually intelligible with hungarian.
This is complete, unfounded nonsense. Have you ever met a Székely? I certainly have, and my relatives visiting Transylvania multiple times, staying at local farmhouses, encountered no difficulty whatsoever in perfectly understanding them either.


Furthermore they have an unique rune-like alphabet what is directe connect to the old turkish alphabet and we haven't got any evidence that this alphabet was in use outside of Transylvania but the szeklers used it in the early modern aera too and as ornament they use it till the late nineteens.
There is plenty of evidence of the script's usage by the general Hungarian population, as late as the early XIXth Century, in secluded, rural areas where the new, mandatory Habsburg school system found its way slowly. Even its mainstream, scientific name is "Székely-Magyar runic script".

[Sylvanus]

This is complete, unfounded nonsense. Have you ever met a Székely? I certainly have, and my relatives visiting Transylvania multiple times, staying at local farmhouses, encountered no difficulty whatsoever in perfectly understanding them either.



I have freinds with szeklers origin who spent many time among own transyilvanian relatives and they tell me how the original speak of the olds (and not the nowadays speech with many romanian words) are very-very different. Moreover I spoke with original szeklers many time and they language is closer to the modern hungarian but the tone of the speech is very different and they use many words and idioms what is not understandable me. The tone is so significant in this way a szeklers start conversation me I use to ask that are they transylvanian? Side by side many hungarian different are not so understandable f.e. many times I do not undersand firstly what speak of rural farmers. Tórárette-tóró! :thumb001:




There is plenty of evidence of the script's usage by the general Hungarian population, as late as the early XIXth Century, in secluded, rural areas where the new, mandatory Habsburg school system found its way slowly. Even its mainstream, scientific name is "Székely-Magyar runic script".

And where are these scripts? Probably our non-hungarian readers donno that these scripts from Szeklerland or from the hand of szeklers f.e. the Script of Constantinople by Hans Dernschwann. His book is very good source of the Turkish Empire side by side every secon word of his the "gypsy" when they penetranted to the turkish land. :P The mainstream scientific name is székely rovásírás means szeklerish rune alphabet. The Wikipedia is not so academic source. :rolleyes: Unfortunately you haven't got any source that this alphabet was in use outside Transylvania among the rural people. However if you have got evidences for these please righ now will publicate these! :)



By the way when I did not read the Torah or make conspiracy against pure aryan children I learnt about the hair-raising theories (etrusc, sumerian, egyptian origin) of this alphabet and IMO this is from the old turkic alphabet, no doubt.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e9/Orkhon_script_8th_century_wt.jpg/471px-Orkhon_script_8th_century_wt.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Nikolsburg.gif

Comperad these evil articles by semitic conspirators:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hungarian_alphabet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Turkic_alphabet

[Arrow Cross]

I have freinds with szeklers origin who spent many time among own transyilvanian relatives and they tell me how the original speak of the olds (and not the nowadays speech with many romanian words) are very-very different. Moreover I spoke with original szeklers many time and they language is closer to the modern hungarian but the tone of the speech is very different and they use many words and idioms what is not understandable me. The tone is so significant in this way a szeklers start conversation me I use to ask that are they transylvanian?
Every region has its specific set of words and accents, but it's really mild in Hungarian. Look at tiny Norway with 4 million inhabitants... and basically two "languages" and a gazillion different dialects.


Side by side many hungarian different are not so understandable f.e. many times I do not undersand firstly what speak of rural farmers. Tórárette-tóró! :thumb001:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqKKS_JP164#t=04m06s ?


And where are these scripts? Probably our non-hungarian readers donno that these scripts from Szeklerland or from the hand of szeklers f.e. the Script of Constantinople by Hans Dernschwann. His book is very good source of the Turkish Empire side by side every secon word of his the "gypsy" when they penetranted to the turkish land. :P The mainstream scientific name is székely rovásírás means szeklerish rune alphabet. The Wikipedia is not so academic source. :rolleyes: Unfortunately you haven't got any source that this alphabet was in use outside Transylvania among the rural people. However if you have got evidences for these please righ now will publicate these! :)
This is what I was talking about. I was fortunate enough to meet the chief scholar researching these findings personally; he explained what is written in the article below. My apologies for finding no English version.


Visszatérve Madarassy László tanulmányára, a szerző a továbbiakban hozzáértéssel ismerteti az összerovások párhuzamait, amelyeket a csíkszentmiklósi és konstantinápolyi emlékekben talál meg. Néhány helyen módosítja a rováspálcák Tooth János szerinti olvasatát. A halasi rovásemléket fontos bizonyítéknak találja arra nézve, hogy ősi írásunk nem csak Erdélyben, hanem a "Nagy-Magyar Alföldön" és más magyar nyelvű területeken is széles körben használatos volt. A Felvidékről, Ernyei Józseftől közöl olyan adatot, hogy 1588-ban egy határjáráson botokra rótták feljegyzéseiket a hivatalos egyének, valamint még a XVIII. században is botra róva hozza a nép gyónásra a "bűnlajstromát".

http://www.rovasirasforrai.hu/Rovasiras/Kiskunhalasi-rovaspalcak.htm

[Sylvanus]

Every region has its specific set of words and accents, but it's really mild in Hungarian. Look at tiny Norway with 4 million inhabitants... and basically two "languages" and a gazillion different dialects.

However the historical Hungary was the Carpathian basin with not so hard clima, not an icy jordland! :eek:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqKKS_JP164#t=04m06s ?

Lol:rolleyes:, IRL the dilacets can be more unintelligible, f.e. many times I must to re-ask coz I just understand a few world. Side by side on paper this dialect more understandable but many words not.



This is what I was talking about. I was fortunate enough to meet the chief scholar researching these findings personally; he explained what is written in the article below. My apologies for finding no English version.

Yes, I know the Forrai's theories. He was who associated the szekler alphabet with the etruscan (!) alphabet... :ranger: Furthermore yet a first sentences have simply lies f.e. the theoriy that Ágoston Trefort minister of education forced the finno-ugrian ancestry with decision. We haven't got any evidences for this. The finno-ugrian ancestry a theory however the most probable theory. But the hungarian nationalist rejected this theory coz the ancient finno-ugrians (moreover every ancient northern/northeastern europeans) were primitive, barbarian, fish-smelled glacierapes, but the turkish people were a highbrow people with magnificant music, beautiful clothes, gastronomy, horses, excellent weapons and alphabet of course.

This region, the Kiskunság measn Small Cumanic[land] where these runic alphabetes were found is a cuman (turkish) region too like the szekler's land. Probably these modern hungarian herders with these alphabet were the direct descendant from these cumans and the cumanish and szeklerish region have the highest central-asian and caucasian (armenid) admixtures among modern hungarians. The surnames are a very flexible and questonable source f.e. the hungarian jews or hungarian germans could have absolute same (!) surnames with a little bit different ancestry. In this way good example is István Csukás hungarian writer with absolute hungarian names but a not so typical hungarian fac from this territory, the Kiskunság - Small Cumanic(land):

http://www.storyonline.hu/data/sztarlexikon/kepek/t75_203.jpg

http://kep.index.hu/1/0/311_81448138f5f163ccdba4acc69819f280/501853_8ae2e270534b4493870614ccef682967_wm.jpg

http://www.litera.hu/files/article/csukas75-lead.jpg



I do not like to use the "unscholarly" term for these theories coz the mainstream can make similar hair-raising theories side by side these. By the way some hungarian historician can read every single rune script with szekler alphabet probably the old-latin scripts too. :D They use simple deductive reasoning: they looks hungarians or hungarian culture everywhere coz they want it. It is very similar to the marxist old historicians or some nice nordicist in this kindly place whos looked/look class strugle or nordid traits everywhere.

[Antimage]

Lol, szeklers are turkish auxiliary people originally and they kept tally on themselvez as szeklers and not hungarians till the late nineteen century and before they were a different nation in Transylvania like the transylvanian-saxons. Moreover their languages is so different and not so mutually intelligible with hungarian.

:picard2: