How did Y-DNA haplogroup Q enter Scandinavia?

[Pallantides]

From wikipedia:

The frequency of haplogroup Q in Norway is about 4%


It's absent in the Finnish and Sámi populations.

[Agrippa]

Old, archaic Eurasian marker - predates the Mongoloid race.

Or influx of later, probably even partially Mongoloid newcomers, from the steppe-East or Greenland-Inuits.

Just two options :)

[Ibericus]

From wikipedia:



It's absent in the Finnish and Sámi populations.

According to Eupedia, Norway has 0.5% of Q which is average European. Ukraine has 5 % : http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Pallantides]

I think Eupedia is wrong here, Norway's Q frequency is estimated around 4%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_q.htm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA).PNG
http://mindofthelinguist.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/hei.png?w=399&h=247

[MacedonBG]

I think it came the same place from where R1A came in there, ;)

And Ucraine makes perfect sence, since it the motherland of the so-called Asi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans
The Alans were also known over the course of their history by another group of related names including the variations Asi, As, and Os (Hungarian Jász, Russian Jasy, Georgian Osi). It is this name that is the root of the modern Ossetian.[7]


The Asi - bulgarians and Ossetians, who used the word АЗ( AZ) for "I", made an early invasion of Skandinavia during the early ages.

Of course later they moved, and were known as Kimbri(Kimerians) - the people who builded Toulose...

[Ibericus]

I think Eupedia is wrong here, Norway's Q frequency is estimated around 4%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_q.htm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA).PNG
http://mindofthelinguist.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/hei.png?w=399&h=247
Never trust Wikipedia in genetics, it's very manipulated.

[Pallantides]

I think Paul Johnsen, a Norwegian guy at forumbiodiversity mentioned a Norwegian source that estimated it at 4-5%,wikipedia don't cite any sources though, neither does Eupedia for their 0.5% in Norway.

But imo 4% seems more correct than 0.5%

[Allenson]

It's been there a long time. One half of the P-derived, R & Q brotherhood.

http://rokus01.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/the-siberian-brotherhood-of-mankind/

[Pallantides]

http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf

The present study emerged out of a single observation. Genetic Y chromosome DNA
testing revealed that the author’s uncleWilliamson (and thus his maternal grandfather), whose roots in the male line lie in the Shetland Islands, had an unusual pattern of matches to the 12 “scores” (markers). The largest number of close matches to this rare haplogroup R1a1 (more on this genetic grouping later) Norse signature from Shetland were not seen in large and diverse European samples in which R1a1 predominates (e.g., Poland), but among the tribal Siberian Altai of Central Asia (33 closematches out of the sample of 46 who had a Haplogroup R1a1 DNA signature). While this could simply be an anomaly, the data emerging out of the Shetland Islands Y-DNA Surname Project began to paint a picture of an Asian presence within the Norse population. All other R1a1 participants with aboriginal surnames (e.g., Robertson, Mathewson) also had the same match profile as the above Williamson. Over time, and as the sample size increased, other rare haplogroups, seen but rarely anywhere in Europe emerged. These included Q (seen almost exclusively in Asia and North America), and K (found in Asia and the Middle East) came to light. These three particular DNA signature patterns were also seen in recently published samples of Norway, Iceland, and the Faroe Islands (the latter two being founded, as was
Shetland, as Norse colonies).

[Bloodeagle]

Is it possible that the Vikings may have brought slaves back from the new world,(Greenland or Vinland) bearing this haplogroup Q? :confused:

Perhaps some of these slaves, if there were any, managed to enter the Scandinavian gene pool.

[MacedonBG]

The key to this is the distribution among the people along the Irtisch River, and between Amudaria and Surdaria rivers

[Great Dane]

Old, archaic Eurasian marker - predates the Mongoloid race.

Or influx of later, probably even partially Mongoloid newcomers, from the steppe-East or Greenland-Inuits.

Just two options :)

Is it possible that the Vikings may have brought slaves back from the new world,(Greenland or Vinland) bearing this haplogroup Q? :confused:

Perhaps some of these slaves, if there were any, managed to enter the Scandinavian gene pool.

There would had to have been a significant amount of Eskimos or American Indian slaves to account for 4% Q in Norway. As of 2010 there are only 50,000 Greenland Inuits and many of them are part Danish in the paternal line. There could have not been enough Eskinos in medieval Greenland to account for 4% Q in Norway. Though they could be responsible for some of the Q. I think Q in Norway must be the mainly the remnants of an ancient people who wandered, or were pushed, to the end of northwestern Europe.

[Curtis24]

off-topic, but What is the majority haplogroup in Scandinavia?

[Tony]

Old, archaic Eurasian marker - predates the Mongoloid race.

Or influx of later, probably even partially Mongoloid newcomers, from the steppe-East or Greenland-Inuits.

Just two options :)
When I see a pattern of haplogroups scattered all around , unlinked geographically to each other and where you can't trace a cline (like it works for the R1a instead...) so that you cannot say where it has originated and the direction along wich it moves , I'm brought to think that that haplo was previously widespred all over and then , very likely due to invanders , only a few small pockets of it survived here and there...
The pockets in Norway could be the last Q remnants of an ancient Siberian (Mongol) people who survived to the IndoEuropeans/Aryan from south , thanks to mountanous refuges.

[Pallantides]

off-topic, but What is the majority haplogroup in Scandinavia?

I1 followed by R1a and R1b, then I guess it's N1c if I remember correctly.

[Curtis24]

Thanks! :)

To the thread topic, Scandinavia had trading cities in the Middle Ages that attracted foreign merchant types and slaves. Maybe some merchants with Q spread it around..

[Agrippa]

Thanks! :)

To the thread topic, Scandinavia had trading cities in the Middle Ages that attracted foreign merchant types and slaves. Maybe some merchants with Q spread it around..

Why should those merchants made it to Norway in such numbers, but not other, partially more important trading areas?

If this haplogroup came late by trade, then slaves I'd say...

[Agrippa]

When I see a pattern of haplogroups scattered all around , unlinked geographically to each other and where you can't trace a cline (like it works for the R1a instead...) so that you cannot say where it has originated and the direction along wich it moves , I'm brought to think that that haplo was previously widespred all over and then , very likely due to invanders , only a few small pockets of it survived here and there...
The pockets in Norway could be the last Q remnants of an ancient Siberian (Mongol) people who survived to the IndoEuropeans/Aryan from south , thanks to mountanous refuges.

Possible. Probably we will know it - when ancient Mesolithic bones being tested for it, though I doubt it...

[Ibericus]

According to this other study (Dupuy et al. 2005) there is no 4% of Q, but less than 1% :
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5773/r1bnorway.png

[Pallantides]

According to this other study (Dupuy et al. 2005) there is no 4% of Q, but less than 1% :
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5773/r1bnorway.png

I have already seen that table, here is what PJ said about it:


Yes, N3 is now N1c1.

However the table isn't correct. It does not include Q (typed under R1b), and some in the hg I bracket are not hg I.

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=159864&postcount=6




Hg I1 and R1b are in fact BR*(xDE J N3 P) and P*(xR1a)respectively.

I make it predicted I1 = 33,11% (predicted I2b1 = 1,59%) and predicted R1b = 24,14% (predicted Q = 2,65%).

Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway also says: "In northern Norway the N3 percentage is 18.6 % in Finnmark, 8.6 % in Troms and 8.4 % in Nordland (which are the three northernmost counties – Nordland being located to the south of the other two (Supplementary data online, figure 2))."

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=159848&postcount=3

[Jaska]

Q is present below 1 % also within Finns, Estonians and Latvians (Lappalainen et al. 2008: Migration waves to the Baltic Sea region). So there is a continuum: from Baltia to Ukraine it's not so long journey, even though the latter may be due to the Turkic expansion: Q is also present within Turkish, Tatars and Altaians.

http://www.ebc.ee/EVOLUTSIOON/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/pdf/AJHGv74p661.pdf

Q really could be a remnant of some ancient eastern (micro-)migration. It would be much harder to explain these matches outside Norway by the Eskimo influence. And equally hard it is to explain the Baltian and Fennoscandian matches by the Turkic influence...

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Inuits have nothing to do with bringing this to Scandinavia. It's obvious Q is one of those haplogroups which made it to Scandinavia and northern Europe through normal migration. Q is also present in western Sweden at rates similar to Norway. It's even suggested and there is diuscussion that men carrying Q may have been an elite bringing with them Asiatic cultiral influences into Scandinavia.

Q is "mongoloid" according to anthroforum logic that's why some wish to see the presence of Q in Scandinavia as a result of slave trade and not a haplogroup among others in the old Norse genepool.

[Erik]

Who does know if the haplogroup Q is present in Denmark, maybe
o,1%?

[Bobby Martnen]

Perhaps the Lapps?