Indo-Europeanization of native Nordic people centuries before the Roman era

[Nordicist]

I recently talked to a friend who is doing Masters research in linguistics and who specializes on centum Indo-European languages said that one of the unique aspects of the Germanic language group is that 30-40% of proto-Germanic vocabulary is of non-Indo-European origin. She said that this converges with the theory that before the Indo-Europeanization of northern Europe and Scandinavia that the invading Aryans assimilated the proto-Europeans of northern Europe and adopted a lot of the words and customs of these native people. This also coincides with the fact that many Scandinavian and northern European men have Y-haplotype I-M-170 (a descendant of IJ), while males of Indo-European invaders typically have Y-haplotype R1a (found in large concentrations in Eastern Europe and northern India). This puts to rest that the Germanic people are the "purest" Aryans as advocated by Hitler and the Nazis. Research seems to indicate that modern-day Germanics are a solid mix between Indo-European invaders and native proto-Europeans.

What do you all think of this theory?

[sql]

There was a theory that the non-IE vocabulary in proto-Germanic was originally Semitic :lol:

[Nordicist]

There was a theory that the non-IE vocabulary in proto-Germanic was originally Semitic :lol:

That's a joke, right?

[sql]

That's a joke, right?

You would think so, but actually some people used to believe it

[Nordicist]

You would think so, but actually some people used to believe it

Actually, some speculate that the non-Indo-European words in proto-Germanic may have come from proto-Uralic speakers living in Scandinavia during the bronze age period.

[aherne]

I recently talked to a friend who is doing Masters research in linguistics and who specializes on centum Indo-European languages said that one of the unique aspects of the Germanic language group is that 30-40% of proto-Germanic vocabulary is of non-Indo-European origin. She said that this converges with the theory that before the Indo-Europeanization of northern Europe and Scandinavia that the invading Aryans assimilated the proto-Europeans of northern Europe and adopted a lot of the words and customs of these native people. This also coincides with the fact that many Scandinavian and northern European men have Y-haplotype I-M-170 (a descendant of IJ), while males of Indo-European invaders typically have Y-haplotype R1a (found in large concentrations in Eastern Europe and northern India). This puts to rest that the Germanic people are the "purest" Aryans as advocated by Hitler and the Nazis. Research seems to indicate that modern-day Germanics are a solid mix between Indo-European invaders and native proto-Europeans.

What do you all think of this theory?

This is not theory, this is known reality backed by all proofs possible (language, culture, race).

[Proto-Shaman]

These non-IE elements are partly Semitic and partly Turkic.

[Ardell]

I thought it was common knowledge that Germanics were not the highest % Caucasoid in Europe, Neolithic Farmers are.

Isn't the whole appeal with Germanic types the "progressive features" i.e. Blonde hair, blue eyes?

[Peterski]

I recently talked to a friend who is doing Masters research in linguistics and who specializes on centum Indo-European languages said that one of the unique aspects of the Germanic language group is that 30-40% of proto-Germanic vocabulary is of non-Indo-European origin. She said that this converges with the theory that before the Indo-Europeanization of northern Europe and Scandinavia that the invading Aryans assimilated the proto-Europeans of northern Europe and adopted a lot of the words and customs of these native people. This also coincides with the fact that many Scandinavian and northern European men have Y-haplotype I-M-170 (a descendant of IJ), while males of Indo-European invaders typically have Y-haplotype R1a (found in large concentrations in Eastern Europe and northern India). This puts to rest that the Germanic people are the "purest" Aryans as advocated by Hitler and the Nazis. Research seems to indicate that modern-day Germanics are a solid mix between Indo-European invaders and native proto-Europeans.

Nordicist, you are at least 2 years behind (not up-to-date) with recent findings concerning ancient DNA and migrations.

First of all - Yamnaya culture's Indo-Europeans from the steppe turned out to be mostly of R1b haplogroup, not R1a.

So now we know that both R1b and R1a are Indo-European, not just R1a.

I (Tomenable) posted about this in the links below, if you are interested:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2299-quot-Dark-pigmentation-of-Eneolithic-and-Bronze-Age-kurgan-groups-from-eastern-Europe-quot&p=103226&viewfull=1#post103226

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31498-Ancient-steppe-dark-light-pigmentation-a-surprising-pattern-unlike-modern-day-clines

Here is a map of ancient DNA samples with R1a haplogroup from Europe and Asia (later I will make a similar one for R1b):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5053-Over-50-ancient-R1a-samples-in-the-context-of-archaeological-cultures/page5

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31463-Over-50-ancient-R1a-samples-in-the-context-of-archaeological-cultures/page3

Maps:

http://s27.postimg.org/z29u09qxv/R1a_Europe_dates.png

http://s27.postimg.org/z29u09qxv/R1a_Europe_dates.png

http://s23.postimg.org/nen0yig57/R1a_Asia_dates.png

http://s23.postimg.org/nen0yig57/R1a_Asia_dates.png

For now, I only have a map with ancient R1b samples from the Eurasian steppe (mostly Yamnaya people - they were dark-haired brunettes):

http://s30.postimg.org/4sarvtydt/Steppe_R1a_and_R1b.png

http://s30.postimg.org/4sarvtydt/Steppe_R1a_and_R1b.png

==========================

As for Europe - here is the data on ancient R1a in Europe (later I will make a similar list for R1b):

Samples of Ancient R1a from Europe (see the map above) in chronological sequence:

Signature of ancient male with R1a - place of burial - dating:

UZOO74 - Red Deer Island, Karelia - 5500-5000 BC
A3 - Serteya VIII, Smolensk Oblast - 4000 BC
RISE434 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2880-2630 BC
RISE436 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2868-2580 BC
RISE446 - Bergrheinfeld, Bavaria - 2829-2465 BC
EUL9(99-3) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
EUL11(99-2) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
EUL12(99-4) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
RISE94 - Viby, Götaland - 2621-2472 BC
A8 - Naumovo, Pskov Oblast - 2500 BC
A9 - Serteya II, Smolensk Oblast - 2500 BC
RISE61 - Kyndeløse, Zealand - 2650-2300 BC
ESP11 - Esperstedt, Saxony-Anhalt - 2473-2348 BC
RISE431 - Łęki Małe, Greater Poland - 2286-2048 BC
Rogalin1 near Hrubieszów, Lublin Region - 2000 BC
Rogalin2 near Hrubieszów, Lublin Region - 2000 BC
RISE42 - Marbjerg, Zealand - 2191-1972 BC
HAL36 - Halberstadt, Sachsen-Anhalt - 1113-1021 BC
Tanais kurgan - Azov steppes, Maeotia - at least 1000 BC
M10 - Lichtenstein Cave near Dorste, Lower Saxony - 1000 BC
M11 - Lichtenstein Cave near Dorste, Lower Saxony - 1000 BC
RISE598 - Turlojiškė, Sudovia - 908-485 BC
A4 - Anashkino hillfort, Pskov Oblast - 800-400 BC

[Peterski]

Blonde hair, blue eyes?

And you are also 2 years behind in terms of knowledge on ancient DNA.

Blue eyes was a feature very common in Mesolithic Europe (back then it was actually more common than today), but those people - despite being blue-eyed - were mostly black-haired and brown-skinned (dark-pigmented). So there was no such a "light hair + blue eyes" combo.

As for blonde hair - it is a much younger feature. It was not present in Mesolithic Europe, at least not in any significant frequencies.

And you cannot look at modern frequencies because they don't show you the place of origin of certain features.

The oldest evidence of blonde hair - currently - seems to be the Asian steppe. A discussion about this here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2299-quot-Dark-pigmentation-of-Eneolithic-and-Bronze-Age-kurgan-groups-from-eastern-Europe-quot/page17


Let's see where does the oldest (to date) evidence of blondness come from.

1) Cases of ancient blondes where hair pigmentation survived:

The oldest discovered so-far example of a blond person from Scandinavia is a Bronze Age Egtved girl (dated to 1390-1370 BC). Egtved girl died in Denmark, but she was born more to the south, in Central Europe, as examination of isotope ratios in her tooth enamel shows.

Two Bronze Age blond mummies (photos posted by Krefter) from Xiaohe in the Tarim Basin (Xinjiang, western China), are older than Egtved girl (dated to ca. 1800 BC).

2) And cases where hair pigmentation was deduced from genes:

Old blondes (1800-1400 BC) from the borderland of Russia-Kazakhstan-Mongolia-China include individuals of Andronovo culture, S09 (woman) and S16 (man) described by Keyser 2009, "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people".

As well as male individual TU34 from Takhilgat Uzuur in Mongolian Altai (ca. 1010 BC), who was dark blond with brown eyes, described in Hollard 2014, "Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age revealed by uniparental and ancestry informative markers".

Blondes could be present in western China and in the Altai 500 years before they appeared in Denmark.

Modern Kalash, Nuristanis, Tajiks, Uyghurs, Pashtuns, etc. have preserved these features to some extent.

As for haplogroup I-M170, you wrote:


This also coincides with the fact that many Scandinavian and northern European men have Y-haplotype I-M170 (a descendant of IJ)

Modern Scandinavians and northern European men with I-M170 have mostly I1 - which is just one of two main sub-branches of I-M170. And this sub-branch called I1 came to Scandinavia with Neolithic farmers of the northern group of TRB (Funnelbeaker) culture. We have samples from Scandinavian hunter-gatherers of Kongemose and Pitted Ware cultures - they were I2a1 and I2c, unlike modern Scandinavians.

The oldest so-far found sample of I1 was from Neolithic farmers of LBK-T culture (Linear Pottery culture in Transdanubia).

The "missing link" between Linear Pottery and Funnelbeaker, which could transmit I1 from LBK to TRB, seems to be Lengyel culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lengyel_culture

Ultimately, I1 had been absorbed by farmers from hunter-gatherers (who learned how to farm and exploded demographically).

[Äijä]

Actually, some speculate that the non-Indo-European words in proto-Germanic may have come from proto-Uralic speakers living in Scandinavia during the bronze age period.

Not likely, it was something else, proto-Finnic spread during the same time as proto-Germanic.

[Peterski]

proto-Uralic speakers living in Scandinavia during the bronze age period.

Bronze Age southern Scandinavia was already Indo-European speaking (local IE was pre-PGmc: pre-proto-Germanic).

We have several ancient Y-DNA samples from Bronze Age Scandinavia. They were a "combo" of I1, R1a-Z284 and R1b-U106.

R1a came to Scandinavia with Corded Ware culture, R1b with Bell Beaker culture. I1 came earlier, with Funnelbeaker farmers.

I suppose that non-Indo-European loanwords in pre-PGmc were inherited from Funnelbeaker farmers.

R1a-Z284 was likely responsible for the "core" of Germanic (based on fonetic, grammatical and lexical similarities Germanic is believed to be descended from Balto-Slavo-Germanic, which then split into pre-proto-Germanic and pre-proto-Balto-Slavic - Corded R1a).

And R1b-U106 was most likely responsible for archaic loanwords from some kind of pre-proto-Italo-Celtic (R1b).

==============================

As for N1c - it was present in Zhizhitskaya culture, fishermen and farmers influenced by Corded Ware / Globular Amphora cultures.

I will quote my own post:

"Chekunova 2014: N1c and R1a samples of Proto-East-Balts (?)":

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5203-Chekunova-2014-N1c-and-R1a-samples-of-Proto-East-Balts-(-)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31502-Chekunova-2014-N1c-and-R1a-samples-of-Proto-East-Balts-(-)

"(...)
According to Russian studies of linguistics, toponymy (including hydronymy) and archaeology, such as these:

- Трубачев О. Н., Топоров В. Н., Лингвистический анализ гидронимов Верхнего Поднепровья
- Седов В.В., Происхождение и ранная истрия Славян
- Седов В. В., Славяние верхнево Поднепровья и Подвинья
- Бернштейн С. Б., Очерк сравнительной граматики славянских языков
- Третьяков П. Н., Памятники зарубинецкой культуры

The Iron Age homeland of East Balts were forest cultures of North-West Russia characterised by hillforts and long barrows.

That network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone, included primarily the following four cultures:

- Stroked-pottery culture
- Dnieper-Dvina culture
- Yukhnov culture
- Upper Oka culture

Areas occupied by those Iron Age cultures, contained archaeological sites (both Iron Age and older) described in these papers:

Dolukhanov et al., "The East European Plain on the Eve of Agriculture":

http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2009BAR_Int_Ser1964_Dolukhanov_etal.pdf

Dolbunova et al., "Archaeology of lake settlement (North-West Russia)":

https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Archaeology_of_lake_settlement_IV-II_mill._BC_Mazurkevich_A._Polkovnikova_M._Dolbuno va_E._ed

In the latter paper we have results of aDNA research, in Table 3. on p. 294 we have 6 samples:

For these samples mtDNA and Y-DNA haplogroups were established (but only superficially, no details about subclades are given):

1) The oldest of these samples is from the turns of the 5th and 4th millennia BC (I bet that this R1a didn't belong to Indo-European branch M198/M417, but it was some more archaic subclade, similar to Karelian R1a dated 5500-5000 BC, or to modern R1a kit of Mr Szpakowski, an ethnic Pole from Belarus):

Sample A3 - site Serteya VIII - dated to ca. 4000 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H

2) Three medium-aged samples belong to Zhizhitskaya culture from the mid-3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals:

2) Three medium-aged samples belong to Zhizhitskaya culture from the mid-3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals:

Sample A6 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2
Sample A8 - site Naumovo - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2
Smple A9 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

3) Two youngest samples (800-400 BC) are Iron Age, part of the network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone. R1a (A4) was inside the hillfort, where warrios and craftsmen lived (Dolukhanov et al., p. 187), while N1c (A5) was in "Devichi gory" burial (long barrow/kurgan?) near the lake:

Sample A4 - Anashkino hillfort - dated to ca. 800-400 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H
Sample A5 - "Devichi gory" burial - dated to ca. 800-400 BC, Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

There is lack of high-resolution data on subclades, but R1a1 and N1c in proportion 1:1 are also today typical haplogroups of East Balts.

Map showing these sites (I couldn't locate "Devichi gory" burial ground, but it was somewhere near the Zhizhitskoye Lake):

http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/

http://s8.postimg.org/fbb2obo11/map_of_locations.png

I think, that R1a from Zhizhitskaya culture and Anashkino hillfort was of Satem IE origin, while N1c was from Non-Indo-European (Old European or Finnic?) population. So East Balts were a mix of R1a and N1c already when living in forests of North-West Russia, before settling at the Sea.

Was ethnogenesis of East Baslts about mixing of Satem IEs (Globular Amphora or/and Corded Ware) with people of Zhizhitskaya culture?

Zhizhitskaya culture was a Late Neolithic culture of fishermen and farmers, building pile dwellings near lakes and rivers. It was at least partially descended from earlier indigenous North-East European cultures of the Comb Ceramic horizon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture

Population of Iron Age cultures of that area (like those from Anashkino hillfort and "Devichi gory") buried their dead in long barrows (long kurgans).

Here is a map showing the area occupied by Zhizhitskaya culture - area number 7 in this map:

This area (No 7) was being penetrated (areas 2 and 16) by people of the Globular Amphora culture (area 1):

http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/

http://i59.tinypic.com/6p3vyx.png

http://i62.tinypic.com/fjooig.png

Lake Zhizhitskoye - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Zhizhitskoye"

=======================================

So N1c was already present in Europe at least 4,500 years ago.

Of course later on, more immigrant waves of people with N1c (probably distinct subclades of it) could come from the east.

[Peterski]

BTW - some samples of N1c haplogroup from pre-war inhabitants of East Prussia (source: FamilyTree DNA projects):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5203-Chekunova-2014-N1c-and-R1a-samples-of-Proto-East-Balts-(-)&p=103666&viewfull=1#post103666

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5203-Chekunova-2014-N1c-and-R1a-samples-of-Proto-East-Balts-(-)&p=103677&viewfull=1#post103677

I found 82 samples from East Prussia from FamilyTreeDNA (they are oldest known ancestors) - including 20 N1c:

R1a - 36 (ca. 44%)
N1c - 20 (ca. 24%)
R1b - 12 (ca. 15%)
I - 10 (ca. 12%)
J, E, G, T - 1 each

Haplogroup N1c - 20 ancestors from East Prussia (the oldest guy - from the 14th century - is bolded):

kit 217892 Johann Groening b. 1800 Krzewiny (Horsterbusch) N-L731
kit E13080 Joannes Reihs b. 1800 Bisztynek (Bischofstein), N-L550, N-L1025
kit E9638 August Darge b. 1870 Bartoszyce, N-L550, L1025+, N-M231+, N-M178
kit 202401 Jan Łozowski b. 1850 Lötzen (Giżycko) N-L550, N-L551, L1025
kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher b. 1729 Schoenfeld N-L550, N-M232
kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis b. 1745 Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry), N-L550
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns b. 1715 Mosteiten, K-M9, N-L550, L1025+
kit 142919 Wilhelm Edward Spangehl b. 1819 Ragnit N-L550, L1025+
kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch b. 1874 Campinschken near Tilsit N-L550, N-M178
kit E13080 Joannes Reihs b. 1800 Bisztynek (Bischofstein) N-L1025
kit 284236 Wannagat b. 1880, Jogeln/Göritten/Stallupönen, N-M178
kit 147092 Johann Bever b. 1800, Ryabinovoye, N-M178
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, b. Wisztyniec, N-M232
kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit b. 1800 Eszerischken, N-L1025
kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. year 1344, Gut Dargels near Braunsberg, N-L1025
kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, 1815, Belczac, N-M231, N-L1025
kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, b. 1758, Łapka in Warmia (Ermland), N-M232, N-L1025
kit 173926 Baltazar Chylinski/Hilinski, 1866-1925, Rakowo (near Tiegenhof), N-L1025
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, b. 1729, Malbork (Marienburg), N-M232, L1025
kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, Kolonie Bismarck bei Heydekrug, N-L551, L1025

Part of that was surely from Old Prussians (West Balts), but part also from Lithuanian immigrants to East Prussia.

See my estimates on how much of original Prussian ancestry actually survived in East Prussia:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5203-Chekunova-2014-N1c-and-R1a-samples-of-Proto-East-Balts-(-)&p=103767&viewfull=1#post103767

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5203-Chekunova-2014-N1c-and-R1a-samples-of-Proto-East-Balts-(-)&p=103738&viewfull=1#post103738

In the 1800s up to 1/3 of East Prussian ancestry was Old Prussian (the remaining 2/3 was German+Polish+Lithuanian+other).

But if we combine Old Prussian survivors + Lithuanian immigrants then even up to half of East Prussian ancestry was Baltic:

http://s17.postimg.org/5z2blsm33/East_Prussians_B.png

http://s17.postimg.org/5z2blsm33/East_Prussians_B.png

=============================

Balts and Finns have various N1c subclades (they share some clades, but some clades are distinct in both groups):

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

[Rugevit]

The Iron Age homeland of East Balts were forest cultures of North-West Russia characterised by hillforts and long barrows.

That network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone, included primarily the following four cultures:

- Stroked-pottery culture
- Dnieper-Dvina culture
- Yukhnov culture
- Upper Oka culture



I would also add the Milograd culture. Although, it's contested if it was Baltic or Slavic by some scholars.



http://s58.radikal.ru/i162/1202/c0/75cf1bfdfae5.jpg




А-Stroked-pottery culture 7BC-5AD
Б- Dniepro-Dvinsk culture 8BC-3AD
В- Milograd culture 7BC-3BC
Г- Yuknovskaya culture 6BC-1AD
Д- Upper Oka culture - 6BC-1AD
К- Zarubinitskaya culture (non-Baltic) 2BC-1AD
Л- Circle of monuments of Zaozerye-Uzmen- 3AD-5AD





I think, that R1a from Zhizhitskaya culture and Anashkino hillfort was of Satem IE origin, while N1c was from Non-Indo-European (Old European or Finnic?) population. So East Balts were a mix of R1a and N1c already when living in forests of North-West Russia, before settling at the Sea.



N1c carriers of the Zhizhitskaya could be paleo-European, Uralic or early IE in theory. It's commonly accepted that early N1c were Uralic. But we know from modern day populations that it's not always the case . N1c1 (L550+, L1025+) is specific to Balts and Slavs, while Uralic lack this sub-clade.


Was ethnogenesis of East Baslts about mixing of Satem IEs (Globular Amphora or/and Corded Ware) with people of Zhizhitskaya culture?

I'd say yes. As modern day Balts are genetically similar to people of the Sintashta (early Indo-Europeans) + extra (5-7%) of WHG component indigenous to northern Europe in Lithuanians . So IE and definitely the local population. The elevated frequency of N1c1 among them could be the result of founder effect or bottle-neck effect which occurred in the past.

[Peterski]

I would also add the Milograd culture. Although, it's contested if it was Baltic or Slavic by some scholars.

http://s58.radikal.ru/i162/1202/c0/75cf1bfdfae5.jpg

А-Stroked-pottery culture 7BC-5AD
Б- Dniepro-Dvinsk culture 8BC-3AD
В- Milograd culture 7BC-3BC
Г- Yuknovskaya culture 6BC-1AD
Д- Upper Oka culture - 6BC-1AD
К- Zarubinitskaya culture (non-Baltic) 2BC-1AD
Л- Circle of monuments of Zaozerye-Uzmen- 3AD-5AD

Nice map! As for Milograd - one of theories is:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5203-Chekunova-2014-N1c-and-R1a-samples-of-Proto-East-Balts-(-)&p=103729&viewfull=1#post103729

"Milograd culture was related to those cultures, but was quite different. Milograd people were better farmers than those living north of them, And also Milograd culture was internally differentiated. Northern Milograd were building hillforts, but Southern Milograd consisted only of open settlements without fortifications. It is also considered, that the Scythians had a cultural influence on Milograd culture, at least on its southern part. In the 2nd century BC immigration from the west from area of Wejherowo-Krotoszyn culture to Milograd culture took place, as the result of which Milograd culture started to transform into Zarubintsy culture. In some places traditional Milograd coexisted with Zarubintsy until the 1st century BC.

According to Tryetyakov areas occupied by Zarubintsy culture are characterised by archaic Slavic hydronymy.

According to Toporov, Slavic language emerged in western parts of Baltic (or Proto-Balto-Slavic) territories."

[Peterski]

I'd say yes. As modern day Balts are genetically similar to people of the Sintashta (early Indo-Europeans) + extra (5-7%) of WHG component indigenous to northern Europe in Lithuanians . So IE and definitely the local population. The elevated frequency of N1c1 among them could be the result of founder effect or bottle-neck effect which occurred in the past.

I agree with this above. Such an autosomal comparison:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/k8-results-for-selected-allentoft-et-al.html

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe?p=463302&viewfull=1#post463302

I've added some descriptions so it is more transparent:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/33bflzn.jpg

http://oi61.tinypic.com/33bflzn.jpg

[Äijä]

N1c carriers of the Zhizhitskaya could be paleo-European, Uralic or early IE in theory. It's commonly accepted that early N1c were Uralic. But we know from modern day populations that it's not always the case . N1c1 (L550+, L1025+) is specific to Balts and Slavs, while Uralic lack this sub-clade.




http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L550/

:rolleyes:

[Äijä]

N1c being hijacked again by IE folk.

[Peterski]

As for R1a, Sintashta and Corded Ware:

The most common branch of R1a in Europe today is Z283, while the most common branch in Asia is Z93, but if we believe age estimates by YFull website, then Z283 and Z93 had a common ancestor, R1a-Z645, who lived just 5 thousand years ago (ca. 3000 BC +/- several centuries):

YFull age estimates for R1a-Z645: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z645/

Formed = time when marker first emerged (in each case just in one male individual!);
TMRCA = time of the most recent common ancestor (i.e. when it truly started demographic expansion).

But according to some opinions, YFull tends to underestimate age of haplogroups by 10-20% (average 15%) in each case.

As for correlations with modern peoples:

Z2124 & Z93* = mainly Iranic & Turkic branches
L657 = mainly Indian (Indo-Aryan) branch
Z280 & M458 = mainly Balto-Slavic branches
Z284 = mainly Scandinavian / Viking branch

Simplified R1a-Z645 tree:

http://s14.postimg.org/zf7z4qq0h/Z645.png

http://s14.postimg.org/zf7z4qq0h/Z645.png

Sintashta ancient sample named RISE386 (dated 2298-2045 BC) belonged to sub-branch R1a-Z2124 (YFull age estimate: ~2700 BC):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

Sintashta ancient sample named RISE392 (dated 2126-1896 BC) belonged to sub-branch R1a-Z2123 (YFull age estimate: ~1800 BC):

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2123/

Those people lived relatively short time after TMRCAs of their respective subclades (sub-branches) of R1a emerged, if we believe YFull.

Z2123 is a sub-branch of Z2124, which is its parent branch.

It seems that Sintashta man named RISE392 could live even earlier than his Y-DNA emerged according to YFull (which seems to validate doubts that some people have concerning YFull age estimates - these people as I wrote above say, that YFull estimates should be 10%-20% older).

And here a simplified genealogical Tree of entire R haplogroup (including R1a, R1b and R2 branches - but I focused on R1a and R1b). Time / age estimates based on YFull, so they can be slightly too young (red text describes some prehistoric samples). The oldest known sample of ancient DNA with R is Mal'ta boy who died 24,000 years ago (he had R*, a side-branch from R, while main branches became R1 and R2):

http://postimg.org/image/64ht3d3tr/

http://s27.postimg.org/4cou8gkgz/R_Y_haplogroup_Tree.png

[Rugevit]

I would also not differentiate western Balts from eastern Balts so much. I suspect west Balts were genetically very similar to east Balts. Probably more R1a1 and less N1c1 in western Balts than in eastern Balts. There 's a good article on the boundaries of Baltic settlements published by Estonian archaeologist Harri Moora in 1958. It predates some important significant research done by archaeologists and linguists in 60-90. However, there is a wealth of information presented for all Balts from historic records, archaeology, linguistics, physical anthropology. It's in the book called Soviet Archaeology (1958) and it was published in Russian. Maybe translated to other languages - Lithuanian or Polish.

[Peterski]

N1c being hijacked again by IE folk.

It's silly to think that entire major haplogroup can be limited to just one linguistic group. Even if assimilation wasn't the case, that would be impossible due to N1c being too old (as a whole). Look at R1b - subclade V88 are Chadic-speakers (mostly Sub-Saharan Blacks), M478 is almost exclusively Turkic, M269 is mixed (mostly Indo-European - but also common among some of Turkic-speakers like for example Bashkirs).

Ancient R1b-V88 was found in a Neolithic farmer buried in Els Trocs cave near Bisaurri (Huesca province) in the Central Pyrenees of Aragón.

But today, R1b-V88 is almost exclusively limited to Sub-Saharan Africa (plus low frequency in North Africa and Middle East).

BTW - I agree that N1c is not "originally" Indo-European, but those from Zhizhitskaya culture probably didn't speak Uralic languages.

[Äijä]

It's silly to think that entire major haplogroup can be limited to just one linguistic group. Even if assimilation wasn't the case, that would be impossible due to N1c being too old (as a whole). Look at R1b - subclade V88 are Chadic-speakers (mostly Sub-Saharan Blacks), M478 is almost exclusively Turkic, M269 is mixed (mostly Indo-European - but also common among some of Turkic-speakers like for example Bashkirs).

Ancient R1b-V88 was found in a Neolithic farmer buried in Els Trocs cave near Bisaurri (Huesca province) in the Central Pyrenees of Aragón.

But today, R1b-V88 is almost exclusively limited to Sub-Saharan Africa (plus low frequency in North Africa and Middle East).

BTW - I agree that N1c is not "originally" Indo-European, but those from Zhizhitskaya culture probably didn't speak Uralic languages.

The picture how and when N1c VL29 spread is becoming pretty clear.

[Peterski]

BTW - R1b-DF27 is the most common subclade among Basque-speakers (71,5% of rural Basques have DF27 subclade):

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Valverde.et.al.2015_Table-S1-Modified_zpsh2bq4v3h.jpg

And the same data here:

http://oi57.tinypic.com/vy2qly.jpg

But "Ancient Basques" cannot be treated as a source for West European R1b (L51), because they only have DF27.

[Peterski]

Another mystery (though maybe not so much) is R1b-M269 among pre-conquest (pre-1400) aboriginals of Canary Islands:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1655-R1b-in-North-Africans&p=103098&viewfull=1#post103098

Aboriginal (Guanches is the umbrella term for them all) haplogroups (samples dated to 2270 - 690 years ago):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanches

E1b1b1b* M81 ---- 8 ---- 26,67%
E1b1b1a* M78 ---- 7 ---- 23,33%
J1* M267 -------- 5 ---- 16,67%
R1b1b2 M269 --- 3 --- 10,00%
K* M9 ----------- 3 ---- 10,00%
I* M170 --------- 2 ---- 6,67%
E1a* M33 -------- 1 ---- 3,33%
P* M45 ---------- 1 ---- 3,33%

This one sample of P-M45 is probably also R1b (but could be R1a, Q or R2 too). This K-M9 is not basal K, but some haplogroup which is descended from K, which couldn't be tested further downstream due to poor quality of sample. I-M270 could be either I2 or I1.

Now I'm wondering if R1b samples are closer to 2270 years old, or closer to 690 years old.

No dating for each sample separately is given, just for the whole set of them all:

Source: http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-9-181.pdf


Aboriginal remains were clearly pre-conquest for all the analyzed islands: Tenerife (2210 ± 60 to 1720 ± 60 BP), Gomera (1743 ± 40 to 1493 ± 40 BP), Hierro (1740 ± 50 to 970 ± 50 BP) and Gran Canaria (1410 ± 60 to 750 ± 60 BP) [33]. Although the Fuerteventura and La Palma [59] materials were not directly C-14 dated, ceramic types co-excavated with the remains indicate that they were also prehispanic and not older than 1000 years BP.

These samples are not so old (from period ca. 270 BC - ca. 1325 AD), but pre-conquest.

Because the Canary Islands were conquered by the Crown of Castille in years 1402 - 1496 AD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Canary_Islands

That said, in Ancient times the Canary Islands were visited by Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Mauretanians, Romans, etc.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands_in_pre-colonial_times

So that R1b could somehow "penetrate" the islands during Ancient or Early Medieval times.

I think establishing what downstream subclades of R1b-M269 were those would be helpful.

[Rugevit]

It's silly to think that entire major haplogroup can be limited to just one linguistic group.

It may well be N1c was spread into east Baltic by paleo-Europeans, who were assimilated by Indo-Europeans and Uralic later. In fact, N1c in Zhizhitskaya pre-dates the spread of Uralic into eastern Baltic which happened 3000 ybp as per Finnish linguists. And there little evidence of Uralic presence in Belarus, Lithuania, southern Latvia, eastern Prussia -- the regions in which N1c1 is found in abundance. Basically, he just wants to appropriate N1c` to Finno-Ugric linguistic family in north-eastern Europe.

[Äijä]

It may well be N1c was spread into east Baltic by paleo-Europeans, who were assimilated by Indo-Europeans and Uralic later. In fact, N1c in Zhizhitskaya pre-dates the spread of Uralic into eastern Baltic which happened 3000 ybp as per Finnish linguists. And there little evidence of Uralic presence in Belarus, Lithuania, southern Latvia, eastern Prussia -- the regions in which N1c1 is found in abundance. Basically, he just wants to appropriate N1c` to Finno-Ugric linguistic family in north-eastern Europe.

Who spread the Finnic language in the Baltic region? I1? R1a?

[Rugevit]

Who spread the Finnic language in the Baltic region? I1? R1a?

Most likely N1c and R1a1 carriers given so many Uralic speakers in the Baltic have N1c1 & R1a1 - Vepsians, Estonians, Karelians. But that does not mean there were no N1c1 and R1a1 in east Baltic before Uralic speakers arrived.

[Äijä]

Most likely N1c and R1a1 carriers given so many Uralic speakers in the Baltic have N1c1 & R1a1 - Vepsians, Estonians, Karelians. But that does not mean there were no N1c1 and R1a1 in east Baltic before Uralic speakers arrived.

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L550/

Do you claim L550+ is Indo-European in origin?

[Rugevit]

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L550/

Do you claim L550+ is Indo-European in origin?

L550+ , L1025+ is Indo-European, because it 's common to Balts and Slavs exclusively. L550+ , L1025- is Scandinavian plus few south-western Finns who likely have Scandinavian ancestry, so also Indo-European.

[Äijä]

L550+ , L1025+ is Indo-European, because it 's common to Balts and Slavs exclusively. L550+ , L1025- is Scandinavian plus few south-western Finns who likely have Scandinavian ancestry, so also Indo-European.

LOL

Where did they separate from VL29?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

[Rugevit]

LOL

Where did they separate from VL29?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

Dude, you are clueless. ;)

[Äijä]

Dude, you are clueless. ;)

I have actually studied where those samples come from, you are in for an nasty ending thinking 550+ originates from anything but Baltic Finnic paternal lines.

[Rugevit]

I have actually studied where those samples come from, you are in for an nasty ending thinking 550+ originates from anything but Baltic Finnic paternal lines.

Of course.

It goes like this

The oldest R1a is found in Karelia (7,500 ybp). Who brought it? Likely Paleo-European.

The oldest N1c1 (4,500 ybp) is found in the Zhizhitskaya - the region that has no history of Uralic presence. Who brought it? Paleo-Europeans or Indo-Europeans

L550+, L1025+ is found among Balts and Slavs...Who brought it? We don't know much about origins of the clade, but we do know that it is common to Balts and Slavs. How we classify it? Baltic and Slavic; hence Indo-European.

[Äijä]

Of course.

It goes like this

The oldest R1a is found in Karelia (7,500 ybp). Who brought it? Likely Paleo-European.

The oldest N1c1 (4,500 ybp) is found in the Zhizhitskaya - the region that has no history of Uralic presence. Who brought it? Paleo-Europeans or Indo-Europeans

L550+, L1025+ is found among Balts and Slavs...Who brought it? We don't know much about its origins of the clade, but we do know that it is common to Balts and Slavs. How we classify it? Baltic and Slavic; hence Indo-European.

We know where it came from, it came from the Baltic Finns who still carry more basal version of it than Balto-Slavs.

[Rugevit]

We know where it came from, it came from the Baltic Finns who still carry more basal version of it than Balto-Slavs.

You don't know it. So don't bull-shit. N1c1 of the Zhizhitskaya pre-dates the spread of Uralic language to east Baltics.

[Äijä]

You don't know it. So don't bull-shit. N1c1 of the Zhizhitskaya pre-dates the spread of Uralic language to east Baltics.

I am giving an honest estimate based on the facts we have, my case is much stronger than yours.

[Rugevit]

I am giving an honest estimate based on the facts we have, my case is much stronger than yours.

No, you don't. Here are the facts


Uralic language was spread to east Baltics 3,000 ybp as per Finnish linguists.
N1c was found in the Zhizhitskaya 4,500 ybp

[Äijä]

No, you don't. Here are the facts


Uralic spread to east Baltic 3,000 ybp
N1c was found in the Zhizhitskaya 4,500 ybp

What type was it?

[Rugevit]

What type was it?

It does not really matter. It shows that N1c1 (whatever type it was) is not exclusive to Uralic.

[Äijä]

It does not really matter. It shows that N1c1 (whatever type it was) is not exclusive to Uralic.

So the R1a Indo-Europeans got N1c 550+ from some paleo-population that was already living in the area when they arrived?

[Peterski]

The oldest R1a is found in Karelia (7,500 ybp). Who brought it? Likely Paleo-European.

But that R1a was not M198/M417. Karelian sample was M459*, which is similar to Szpakowski's YP1272.

These lineages still exist, but in small numbers. The vast majority of modern R1a is under M198:

http://s27.postimg.org/4cou8gkgz/R_Y_haplogroup_Tree.png

Karelian sample was not necessarily directly ancestral to M198, that could as well be just a side-branch.

BTW - it's possible that haplogroup R originated from these LGM (Last Glacial Maximum) refugia in Siberia:

Some abbreviations:

MA-1 = Mal'ta boy (whose Y-DNA haplogroup was R*)
ANE = Ancient North Eurasians (MA-1 and similar Siberians)
EHG = hunter-gatherers from Karelia and Samara Oblast
SHG = hunter-gatherers from Southern Sweden & Gotland
WHG = hunter-gatherers from Iberia and Luxembourg

EHG and SHG could be described as a mix of WHG and ANE
EHG had more ANE than SHG, WHG had no ANE admixture

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4869-Revisiting-the-issue-of-quot-Ice-Age-refugia-quot-in-the-context-of-WHG-SHG-EHG-ancestries/page4


The important thing that we have learned from the recent spate of ancient DNA results is that ANE and Y-DNA R did not come from an ice age refuge in Europe. The refuge was in Siberia. Any hunter-gatherer in Europe with an element of ANE had ancestors from Siberia. This included EHG and SHG. Foragers with ANE and Y-DNA R did not arrive in Europe until long after the Ice Age maximum.

I hope this map makes matters clear:

http://s13.postimg.org/lwt6blh2v/Ice_Age_Max_Map.gif

http://s13.postimg.org/lwt6blh2v/Ice_Age_Max_Map.gif

I should have added ANE to Y-DNA R in my key.

(...)

I look at DNA samples in their cultural context.

The regions I outlined in red contain hunter-gatherer sites that survived the LGM. These refuge areas were relatively protected in the Ice Age. The coniferous forest refuge near Lake Baikal include..d the Mal'ta site (24,000 years ago) with a boy carrying ANA and Y-DNA R. Early pottery was present in the Lake Baikal region - the type that arrived in the Samara region on the Volga c. 7000 BC.

The refuge around the upper Yenisei river was sheltered by mountains. It include..d the site at Afontova Gora, with a male carrying ANE (17,000 years ago). This site had pressure blade-making technology. This complex technique was most probably handed down within families and so would have spread by migration. Like pottery, it arrived between the Urals and the Caspian in the Mesolithic. It also reached Lapland by a more northerly route about 5836 BC.

The major barrier was the expanded Caspian, which butted up against the Urals, as David Anthony pointed out in The Horse, The Wheel and Language. It was not completely impassible, but it seems that the bands of hunter-gatherers who clustered around the Yenisei and Lake Baikal were more tempted to roam from their refuge after the climate improved.
It seems to me people are a bit resistant to all the evidence pointing to R not being anywhere in Europe until the Mesolithic. As you note, the evidence is for refugia in south-central Siberia/Altai and thereabouts as where both R and Q wintered out the LGM. Due to archaeological considerations and the huge geographical gap between that part of Asia and the Gravettians in Europe, I certainly feel R1 couldnt be in two places at the same time during the LGM. AFAIK evidence of contact between east-central Siberia/Altai and Europe is absent (we all looked hard for it) before and during the LGM and indeed until after the Younger Dryas IMO.
Even though the art of the culture that the Mal'ta boy belonged to is different from the true Gravettian art of Europe I still find it interesting that the Mal'ta boy belongs to mtDNA haplogroup U just like the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Europe although of a different subclade. Haplogroup U sure seems to have spread far and wide very early on.

Mal'ta boy lived around 24,000 years ago:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/

http://s11.postimg.org/jfkv011oj/MA1.png

Autosomal DNA comparison of ANE Mal'ta boy (MA-1) and modern populations:

(Afontov Gora-2 is another ancient Siberian, who lived 17,000 years ago, his Y-DNA was Q1a1):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4105016/bin/nihms583477f1.jpg

Common ancestor of R and Q haplogroups, was P (while ancestor of N and O, was NO):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Yhaplotree.JPG

In case of NO descendants - O went south and east, while N went north and west:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Haplogrupo_O_(ADN-Y)_edit.png/300px-Haplogrupo_O_(ADN-Y)_edit.pnghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PcBaigda0Do/UJojz_zELNI/AAAAAAAAATI/t1JWN_mh_aA/s320/300px-Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG

In case of descendants of P - Q went mostly east, but some stayed or went west:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/32/33/ec/3233ec85b7112994fe658eadafa31622.jpg

[Rugevit]

But that R1a was not M198/M417. Karelian sample was M459*, which is similar to Szpakowski's YP1272.

These lineages still exist, but in small numbers. The vast majority of modern R1a is under M198:

http://s27.postimg.org/4cou8gkgz/R_Y_haplogroup_Tree.png

Karelian sample was not necessarily ancestral to M198, that could also be just a side-branch.

Okay, change paleo-European to some Eurasian speaker responsible for spreading first R1a to north-eastern Europe 7,500 years ago. And whatever branch it was, there were no Indo-Europeans 7,500 years ago. The Indo-European language is around 5,000-5,500 years old according to scholars who support the steppes origins of Indo-Europeans.

[Peterski]

So the R1a Indo-Europeans got N1c 550+ from some paleo-population that was already living in the area when they arrived?

It seems so, yes.


What type was it?

No idea so far - Chekunova did not give details on subclades.

[Äijä]

dublicate

[Äijä]

It seems so, yes.





Why do Finns have so basal samples in the L550 tree?

Is VL29 as a whole Indo-European in origin?

It is very difficult to be both in origin, then you have to give a new candidate for spreading Finnic language in to the region.

A hint, anyone trying will fail.

[Peterski]

^
According to age estimates by YFull, TMRCA of VL29 is ca. 4300 years old and L550 ca. 3500 years old (formed):

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

According to many opinions YFull estimates are 10-20% too young, so up to 5400 and 4400 years old respectively.

N1c from Zhizhitskaya culture is from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC (4500 years old +/- a few centuries):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?180582-Indo-Europeanization-of-native-Nordic-people-centuries-before-the-Roman-era&p=3780515&viewfull=1#post3780515

If this sample turns out to be L550, then we will have 99% proof that Zhizhitskaya is where L550 emerged.

===========================

Do you think that Zhizhitskaya people could be Finnic-speaking and later became Indo-Europeanised?

IIRC, it has been argued that Finnic language was not present in this area (map) in the 3rd millennium BC:

http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/

http://s8.postimg.org/fbb2obo11/map_of_locations.png

That N1c sample in question (from the 3rd millennium BC) was found near Serteya (^ map above):


2) Three medium-aged samples belong to Zhizhitskaya culture from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals:

Sample A6 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

Sample A8 - site Naumovo - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

Smple A9 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

(...)

Zhizhitskaya culture was a Late Neolithic culture of fishermen and farmers, building pile dwellings near lakes and rivers. It was at least partially descended from earlier indigenous North-East European cultures of the Comb Ceramic horizon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture

[Äijä]

^
According to age estimates by YFull, TMRCA of VL29 is ca. 4300 years old and L550 ca. 3500 years old (formed):

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

According to many opinions YFull estimates are 10-20% too young, so up to 5400 and 4400 years old respectively.

N1c from Zhizhitskaya culture is from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC (4500 years old +/- a few centuries):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?180582-Indo-Europeanization-of-native-Nordic-people-centuries-before-the-Roman-era&p=3780515&viewfull=1#post3780515

If this sample turns out to be L550, then we will have 99% proof that Zhizhitskaya is where L550 emerged.

===========================

Do you think that Zhizhitskaya people could be Finnic-speaking and later became Indo-Europeanised?

IIRC, it has been argued that Finnic language was not present in this area in the 3rd millennium BC:

http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/


http://s8.postimg.org/fbb2obo11/map_of_locations.png


This is the rough estimate on the path and timeline of Finnic spread in to the region, VL29 matches with it.

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi1.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomensynty.html

[Peterski]

^ So I guess we need to find out what subclade of N1c was that sample A6 from Serteya II.

[Äijä]

^ So I guess we need to find out what subclade of N1c was that sample A6 from Serteya II.

Yes, but it could be something that is not ancestral directly to anything today.

[Rugevit]

This is the rough estimate on the path and timeline of Finnic spread in to the region, VL29 matches with it.


There is no historic, archaeological or linguistic evidence of Uralic presence at the Zhizhitskaya area. Finno-Ugric hydronyms and settlements are further north of western Dvina river.

[Peterski]

Were Kvens (Kwänen) from Sweden Finnic-speaking people ???

According to this ethnic map from 1847, there were still Kvens living in Sweden at that time:

From the thread "Kingdom Of Kvenland" on Historum:

http://historum.com/european-history/55252-kingdom-kvenland.html#post2262773?postcount=9

Map published in year 1847:

Fragment showing Kvenland: http://postimg.org/image/52yrnky2j/

Baltic Sea area plus legend: http://postimg.org/image/7bhs4lgwp/full/

http://s9.postimg.org/oxkt9pda5/Kvens_B.png

[Äijä]

What if some confederacy is moving with different paternal clans and languages, one IE and one Finnic? Any R1a have the same migration pattern and arrival time in to the Baltics?

Just thinking out loud, Estonian samples are in great demand, Pskov had N1c in a barrow.

[Peterski]

That 1847 map shows huge inland areas as Kvenish majority + "Schwedische Ansiedlung" (Swedish colonisation).

[Äijä]

There are Baltic loanwords in Baltic Finnish for a period after the arrival to the Baltic Sea, then they stop, possible separation of the Baltic L550?

[Äijä]

Were Kvens (Kwänen) from Sweden Finnic-speaking people ???

According to this ethnic map from 1847, there were still Kvens living in Sweden at that time:

From the thread "Kingdom Of Kvenland" on Historum:

http://historum.com/european-history/55252-kingdom-kvenland.html#post2262773?postcount=9

Map published in year 1847:

Fragment showing Kvenland: http://postimg.org/image/52yrnky2j/

Baltic Sea area plus legend: http://postimg.org/image/7bhs4lgwp/full/

http://s9.postimg.org/oxkt9pda5/Kvens_B.png

I am interested in Curonians, they where always close to Kvens and Estonians.

[Äijä]

Finland is not very important until late Iron Age, it is a very recent expansion of the Baltic Finns.

[Rugevit]

There are Baltic loanwords in Baltic Finnish for a period after the arrival to the Baltic Sea, then they stop, possible separation of the Baltic L550?

There are also Iranic loan-words in Baltic Finnish. But the presence of loan-words does not always mean the two groups settled in close proximity. The exchange of the words could happen through trade and people travelled fair distances to trade in the past.

[Peterski]

Could Rurikid branch of N1c be from those Kvens living in Sweden?

[Rugevit]

I am interested in Curonians, they where always close to Kvens and Estonians.

Latgalians were just as close to eastern Estonians.

[Äijä]

There are also Iranic loan-words in Baltic Finnish. But loan-words does not always mean the two groups settled in close proximity. The exchange of the words could happen through trade and people travelled fair distances to trade in the past.

But they where in close proximity in the Baltic, anyone denying that?

[Äijä]

Latgalians were just as close to eastern Estonians.

What haplos do Latgallians have?

[Äijä]

There where some form of IE speakers in Estonia when Finnic arrived, by the time they moved to Finland later there where Germanic speakers there.

[Rugevit]

But they where in close proximity in the Baltic, anyone denying that?

You were talking about ancient loan-words in Baltic Finnish. Baltic Finnish was spread all they way to Archangel (east of Karelia). How ancient Baltic and Iranic words could enter Baltic Finnish spoken in Karelia?

[Rugevit]

What haplos do Latgallians have?

Unknown to me. I only know one Latgalian guy , who has done DNA test. He had L550+, L1025+ (south-baltic branch)

[Äijä]

You were talking about ancient loan-words in Baltic Finnish. Baltic Finnish was spread all they way to Archangel (east of Karelia). How ancient Baltic and Iranic words could enter Baltic Finnish spoken in Karelia?

They got them around modern Estonia, not my opinion, the scientists say so.

[Rugevit]

By the ways Curonians settled the area of what is today present-day north-western Lithuania. Samogitians migrated into the region in the last 1,000 years assimilating Curonians. Modern day Samogitians have plenty of R1a1 ; around ~45%.

[Rugevit]

They got them around modern Estonia, not my opinion, the scientists say so.

Modern scholars suggest that Baltic Finnish was spread from Volga-Ural direction into east Baltic. So early Uralic speakers did a U-turn after arriving to Estonia? That is also possible.

[Äijä]

Modern scholars suggest that Baltic Finnish was spread from Volga-Ural direction into east Baltic. So early Uralic speakers did a U-turn after arriving to Estonia? That is also possible.

Yes, they arrived in the Estonia-Pskov-St.Petersburg region first, from there the language spreads around.

[Äijä]

Modern Finland is not that important in the arrival of the Baltic Finns, it is an expansion area.

[Äijä]

Anyone have info on the Iberian L550? Are they from the migration period or later?

[Äijä]

By the ways Curonians settled the area of what is today present-day north-western Lithuania. Samogitians migrated into the region in the last 1,000 years assimilating Curonians. Modern day Samogitians have plenty of R1a1 ; around ~45%.

I would like to know what the Curonian nobility has, the families are known so it would be easy to test.

[Rugevit]

I would like to know what the Curonian nobility has, the families are known so it would be easy to test.

I don't know anything about Curonian nobility, other than Curonians were assimilated by Samogitians in north-western Lithuania and any nobility in Latvia were assimilated into German culture.

[Äijä]

I don't know anything about Curonian nobility, other than Curonians were assimilated by Samogitians in north-western Lithuania and any nobility in Latvia were assimilated into German culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curonian_Kings

Can you translate the family names?

[Rugevit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curonian_Kings

Can you translate the family names?

Thanks!~

[Äijä]

Thanks!~

They need to be tested IMO.

[Rugevit]

They need to be tested IMO.

Some Lithuanian asked about Curonian Kings on russian speaking molgen (molecular geneaology) forum. Nobody knows about their DNA. I ran a search in Russian speaking search engine. There's nothing. Latvians are not as well tested as Lithuanians IMO.

[Äijä]

Some Lithuanian asked about Curonian Kings on russian speaking molgen (molecular geneaology) forum. Nobody knows about their DNA. I ran a search in Russian speaking search engine. There's nothing. Latvians are not as well tested as Lithuanians IMO.

Can you tell anything about the family names and the village names?

[Rugevit]

Can you tell anything about the family names and the village names?

I can't find about their family names. There were 790 Curonian kings (recognised social status in Russia) in 1860. The Curonian Kings during Livonian order lived in the surroundings of Kuldiga town (Turlava, Snepele, Varme, Sausgali if I spell them correctly) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuld%C4%ABga

[Äijä]

I can't find about their family names. There were 790 Curonian kings (recognised social status in Russia) in 1860. The Curonian Kings during Livonian order lived in the surroundings of Kuldiga town (Turlava, Snepele, Varme, Sausgali if I spell them correctly) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuld%C4%ABga

What do those place names mean?

What about these family names? One looks like dragon related.



Peniķis, Tontegode, Vidiņš, Dragūns, Sirkants

[Rugevit]

What do those place names mean?

What about these family names? One looks like dragon related.

The names of smaller districts; their administrative centre is town Kuldiga.


Here is some information

This group is said to originate from the leaders of the Curonian people (one of the groups that eventually melded into what would become Latvians) in central Kurland, in the communities of Ķoniņciems, Kalējciems, Ziemeļciems, Pliķuciems, Dragūnciems, Viesalgciems and Sausgaļciems, all located around the town of Kuldīga. Their main church was the Lipaiķi Lutheran Church, which was the home parish for the communities of Ķoniņciems, Kalējciems, Ziemeļciems and Pliķuciems, southwest of Kuldīga.

Kuršu Ķoniņi surnames: Peniķis, Tontegode (Tonteguts), Sirkants (Saukants), Šmēdiņš, Bergholcs (Bartolds), Kalējs (Šmits), Dragūns (Vidiņš), Grīnbergs. The oldest of these families – at least as it comes to having privileges – are the Tontegode and Peniķis families. I should note though that some of these names – particularly Kalējs, Šmits, Vidiņš and Grīnbergs – are quite common all over Latvia, so having one of these surnames in your tree does not mean you have kuršu ķoniņi ancestors. Though if they are from the Lipaiķi congregation, the chances can be quite good. You will have to dig into the church records and see.

[Rugevit]

The DNA of common folks from Curland will tell as much about the origins of Curonians as the DNA of Curonian Kings. Curonian kings were a privileged social class. Often nobility were mixing with people of the similar social status from distant regions and countries, whereas common folks were serfs attached to land. They were mixing among themselves

[Äijä]

The names of smaller districts; their administrative centre is town Kuldiga.


Here is some information

This group is said to originate from the leaders of the Curonian people (one of the groups that eventually melded into what would become Latvians) in central Kurland, in the communities of Ķoniņciems, Kalējciems, Ziemeļciems, Pliķuciems, Dragūnciems, Viesalgciems and Sausgaļciems, all located around the town of Kuldīga. Their main church was the Lipaiķi Lutheran Church, which was the home parish for the communities of Ķoniņciems, Kalējciems, Ziemeļciems and Pliķuciems, southwest of Kuldīga.

Kuršu Ķoniņi surnames: Peniķis, Tontegode (Tonteguts), Sirkants (Saukants), Šmēdiņš, Bergholcs (Bartolds), Kalējs (Šmits), Dragūns (Vidiņš), Grīnbergs. The oldest of these families – at least as it comes to having privileges – are the Tontegode and Peniķis families. I should note though that some of these names – particularly Kalējs, Šmits, Vidiņš and Grīnbergs – are quite common all over Latvia, so having one of these surnames in your tree does not mean you have kuršu ķoniņi ancestors. Though if they are from the Lipaiķi congregation, the chances can be quite good. You will have to dig into the church records and see.

Thanks but can you tell about the etymology behind the names?

[Rugevit]

Thanks but can you tell about the etymology behind the names?

I can't.

[Äijä]

I can't.

Do we have Latvians here?