Celto- Germanic Heritage! British blood at its best!

[Gooding]

So, shall we take a tour of those wonderful groups that forged the great nations that comprised the British Isles and the admixtures that took place therein? Let's go back, say, a millennium or so and see what the nascent Anglo- Saxon population was doing and how successfully they integrated with the existing Brythonic and Gaelic populations. http://www.academia.edu/1178275/Anglo-Saxon_immigration_and_ethnogenesis._Medieval_Archa eology_55_2011._1-28, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/584960/posts, a link to the ethnogenesis of the Scots: http://skyelander.orgfree.com/scot3.html and a link to the development of the Welsh as a people: http://www.britannia.com/wales/whist1.html. This, combined with the stories of the Cornish and the Manx: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/cornish_nation_01.shtml and http://isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/hist1900/.

We see that the British people both as a whole and as members of their constituent countries have a wonderfully diverse and ancient heritage that goes back 250, 000 years. That heritage includes pre- Celtic settlers, the Celts themselves, the Anglo- Saxons who followed the Roman withdrawal from Britannia, the Vikings and last of all, the Normans, French Huguenots and others who contributed to make Britain the global superpower it was destined to become. The literature and science of Great Britain and Ireland are second to none and the Colonial efforts of the British Empire dispersed many of her people all over the globe, where they founded vibrant countries of their own. I would argue that the British Nation had done as much as any other to disseminate civilization all over the globe and raised the living standards of millions.

The determination and ambition of these remarkable people has led to both unspeakable atrocities against those they regarded as enemies and competitors and to glorious achievements that have enhanced the human experience.

[Neon Knight]

Yeah, they kicked ass :)

[Neon Knight]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2751464/DAN-SNOW-Marriage-forged-modern-world-Top-TV-historian-s-fascinating-account-Union-transformed-two-penniless-war-torn-nations-one-greatest-countries-ever.html

DAN SNOW on the marriage that forged the modern world: Top TV historian's fascinating account of how the Union transformed two war-torn nations into one of the greatest countries ever

"Scotland has been a United Kingdom with England and Wales since 1707. That’s since before the U.S. existed. It’s been around twice as long as Germany. Only a handful of countries are older. But no other can match its record. In that time no foreign enemy has ever occupied our capital, no revolution has bloodily swept away the old order and no dictator emerged to pick up the pieces.

The irony is that the United Kingdom’s prospects at birth were grim. Fourteen hundred years ago, the first great home-grown historian, Bede, explained that this island was held in a state of perpetual warfare by at least four different peoples who lived cheek by jowl: the English, Picts, Welsh and Scots. These peoples spent even more time fighting themselves, their petty lordships and kingdoms locked in almost permanent civil war. The people of these islands were weak and divided, they seemed destined to be the victims of outside aggression rather than a people in command of their own destiny.

In 1667, a Dutch fleet sailed up the Medway and ambushed the Royal Navy lying helplessly at anchor, unable to put to sea due to a lack of funds. The Dutch seized the flagship which they towed back to Holland as a prize; her stern still sits like a trophy of war in a museum in Amsterdam. By the time Dutchman William of Orange invaded in 1688, with the English army disintegrated, he found the Treasury empty and the politics dysfunctional. Two years later the French trounced the Royal Navy off Beachy Head, and England’s coast lay at their mercy.

Then something remarkable happened, Scotland joined England and Wales in an Act of Union. These war-torn, penniless states came together, and the world would never be the same again. The explosion of creativity, economic and intellectual activity, scientific experimentation and entrepreneurial activity was a marvel. Freed from the petty concerns of internal competition, the people on this island came together with an energy that left the rest of the world blinking in disbelief and scrambling wildly to emulate it. The national collaboration between England and Scotland was mirrored up and down the land as individual English and Scots joined forces. The result of these thousands of connections was a giant chain reaction that laid the foundations for the modern world.

The Union helped to unlock the vast potential of the British. Just as the Bank of England became the model for new countries building their central banks, so developments in industry, economics and politics would act as beacons that the rest of the world sought to copy. The UK was able to protect its citizens. HMS Victory was the most complex and awesome machine on the planet by the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805. Her hull was sheathed in Welsh copper, her heavy carronades on the upper deck were Scottish and her famous Admiral Nelson, an Englishman.

A medieval chronicler once pointed out that if the Welsh stopped fighting among themselves they would be truly formidable. ‘If they were inseparable, they would be insuperable.’ His comments applied to all the inhabitants of this island. The most inspiring and uplifting aspect of the Union was its ability to bring together people of different languages, ethnicities and locations to work together in harmony."

[Jackson]

Been reading quite a bit about the Iron Age (also some bits about the Bronze age) recently, lots going on. One interesting thing in particular is that the divide between the south, east and central areas (lowlands mostly) and the upland Atlantic west and north - that arguably you can also see in the modern genetic clusters, which follow it very well actually, big red blob of the south-east in particular - goes back a fair way, and is in significant part due to landscape & environment. In particular the climate and altitude of many areas in the north and west makes arable agriculture very risky - ie it's possible in lots of places but small fluctuations in climate that might go fairly unnoticed (or only be a minor problem) in the south-east would cause crop failures in north and west making it risky business to rely on a grain-based economy in those areas, but in the southern, central and eastern lowlands it was the norm (although it was a 'mixed economy'). There's little evidence for large scale grain cultivation in those northern and western areas but you do find some evidence for the consumption of those products, so probably people practiced small-scale arable agriculture but relied primarily on a pastoral economy (generally sheep and cattle, although in many areas cattle made up the vast majority of the diet, for example in some parts of Wales). Also many of these areas were 'aceramic' in contrast to the south-eastern regions and also interestingly to the northern and western isles. Although in certain conditions well made wooden and leather objects have been found, so no reason to assume they were more technologically primitive, but that it wasn't necessary or viable.

Also interesting are the different modes of settlement from the middle to late iron age in particular, f.e in the east it was mostly open farmsteads, small settlements or enclosures with the occasional 'hillfort', while in the south-centre, south-west and west there were many 'traditional' hillforts, while in the far south-west of what's now England and in the south-west of Wales 'rounds' (small enclosed farmsteads) were extremely common, but not so much larger settlements. Up in Scotland Brochs and Wheelhouses were common in particularly on the Isles from the middle of the Iron Age onwards, as well as crannogs (lake/marsh settlements) and duns.

I suppose it chimes really with ancient accounts saying those near the coast (in the south-eastern lowland zone mostly) were more grain cultivators and had close links with northern Gaulish groups, while those further inland survived 'on meat and milk' (suggests a pastoral or heavily animal-based economy anyway).

A lot of the enclosures in southern areas in particular were roundhouses within rectangular or sub-rectangular enclosures, and iirc many sites had rectangular grain storage buildings (four post granaries), so the choice of round architecture throughout the isles at least for the central building of the homestead must have been a cultural preference i would have thought, rather than a purely technological thing, a building tradition.

Also was interesting reading about how the elite were thought to have used chariots - more as utility vehicles - ie they would ride them into battle, dismount and fight and foot and then if they got into a particularly dangerous situation or needed to move along elsewhere or take a break - they would retreat to the chariot and move on.

And apparently they were fond of wearing lots of bright clothing (and jewellery if they had it), but that's not surprising.

Just splurging out some random bits i read recently, can't remember all of it though.

[aksakallicocuk]

Doesn't france,south germany,austria,switzerland also celtic-germanic mix?

[Graham]

Doesn't france,south germany,austria,switzerland also celtic-germanic mix?

Yes.

[Leliana]

I feel a bit addressed. :) I'm most likely a Germanic-Celtic mix, too, as my family orginates and still lives almost in the center of the old Celtic Halstatt culture...and the Celts didn't vanish over night by a magic spell when the Germanic tribes came. ;) The Germanic element is dominant for sure, but it would be stupid to assume that there's nothing Celt in me.

[Valmont]

Doesn't france,south germany,austria,switzerland also celtic-germanic mix?

Yes they are :)

[Gooding]

I feel a bit addressed. :) I'm most likely a Germanic-Celtic mix, too, as my family orginates and still lives almost in the center of the old Celtic Halstatt culture...and the Celts didn't vanish over night by a magic spell when the Germanic tribes came. ;) The Germanic element is dominant for sure, but it would be stupid too assume that there's nothing Celt in me.

That's very true! I'm also of the opinion that people from the Benelux countries are also Celto- Germanic? I think the Gaulish input might have radiated beyond the borders of modern France. Absolutely, I'm sure that continental Celts survived as a genetic component of the German people every bit as much as the insular Celtic component survived in the British.

[Graham]

The difference between Scots, irish, English, Germans, Danes, Dutch, Norwegians, Swedish, Belgians etc.. In North West Europe is small genetically.

[Gooding]

Bumping and grinding this up!

[Cody Gearhart]

As far as i know British are just Germans really. Maybe some Scandinavian input but that's about it. Irish are Descended from Spanish or Basques. Although a lot of Irish also have Scandinavian mixture.

[Gooding]

The First British Empire saw an enormous population explosion and the economic imperatives of a nation to expand its living space to another continent. http://british-empire1.blogspot.com/2010/01/first-british-empire-15831783.html As these settlers from the countries of Great Britain made their homes in a new land, they certainly did not forget their old one. In fact, the links between the Mother Country and the Colonies were strong and quite active until the American Revolution, part of the basis of which was the Colonists' self perception of themselves as British subjects and therefore entitled to all the rights due such subjects.http://americanhistory.si.edu/magnacarta

[Jägerstaffel]

As far as i know British are just Germans really. Maybe some Scandinavian input but that's about it. Irish are Descended from Spanish or Basques. Although a lot of Irish also have Scandinavian mixture.

There is a huge wealth of indigenous-Briton DNA found in the British Isles.

[Journeyman26]

Get back behind that wall you!

http://anglotopia.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/VB219803821.jpg

[Cody Gearhart]

There is a huge wealth of indigenous-Briton DNA found in the British Isles.

Briton is the same as British?

[Graham]

Briton is the same as British?

Briton refers to the pre- Germanic invasions. Tribes that spoke something like Welsh.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Roman_Britain_410.jpghttp://i0.wp.com/www.thebritishhistorypodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Britain.Anglo_.Saxon_.homelands.settlements.400.50 0.jpg?fit=810%2C810

[Jägerstaffel]

Briton is the same as British?

See Graham's response. To say the British are just Germans really isn't correct.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Disagree. Briton Celts kept German Britannia from achieving more greatness. Just my opinion.

[Nordicist]

Most native English people are more related to Basque people in northern Iberia than Nordic-looking Germanics. Funny you English with your Germanic delusions.

[Cody Gearhart]

Briton refers to the pre- Germanic invasions. Tribes that spoke something like Welsh.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Roman_Britain_410.jpghttp://i0.wp.com/www.thebritishhistorypodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Britain.Anglo_.Saxon_.homelands.settlements.400.50 0.jpg?fit=810%2C810
But they do have more Germanic influence due to anglo-saxons which came from southern jutland? Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Gooding]

Most native English people are more related to Basque people in northern Iberia than Nordic-looking Germanics. Funny you English with your Germanic delusions.

Hence Celto- Germanic, rather than Germanic or Germano- Celts. Who says that the people of the British Isles are unmixed Germanics??

[Valmont]

Hence Celto- Germanic, rather than Germanic or Germano- Celts. Who says that the people of the British Isles are unmixed Germanics??

People often confuse language and ethnicity. English people speak a Germanic language hence they must be Germanic. Same for the French, they speak a Romance language so they must be Latins. Well (partially) wrong and wrong. Modern English people are a mix of the old Celts that inhabitated the British Isles and of the Germanics invadors just like modern French people are a mix of the old Gauls (aka Celts) that inhabitated the Gauls and of the various Germanic tribes that later invaded them too.

If you look purely at a linguistic perspective then English is the most celtic and latin influenced Germanic language while French is the most germanic and celtic influenced Romance language. Interestingly the name "Great Britain" derives from the Latin word "Britannia" while the name "France" derives from the Germanic word "Frank"

[Grace O'Malley]

As far as i know British are just Germans really. Maybe some Scandinavian input but that's about it. Irish are Descended from Spanish or Basques. Although a lot of Irish also have Scandinavian mixture.

Take a look at these genetic plots and tell me what you see?

http://s28.postimg.org/uznbxb8il/pca12.png

http://s28.postimg.org/o09qhbpi5/Hinxton3_ERS389797pca12_K15.png

http://s28.postimg.org/f37usgm7h/pca12.png

http://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg

[Hevo]

That's very true! I'm also of the opinion that people from the Benelux countries are also Celto- Germanic? I think the Gaulish input might have radiated beyond the borders of modern France. Absolutely, I'm sure that continental Celts survived as a genetic component of the German people every bit as much as the insular Celtic component survived in the British.

Northern Dutch are rather Pred Germanic.

[Cody Gearhart]

Take a look at these genetic plots and tell me what you see?

http://s28.postimg.org/uznbxb8il/pca12.png

http://s28.postimg.org/o09qhbpi5/Hinxton3_ERS389797pca12_K15.png

http://s28.postimg.org/f37usgm7h/pca12.png

http://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg
I thought Dutch had Frankish blood? And if so how do they still cluster close like that still?

[Cody Gearhart]

People often confuse language and ethnicity. English people speak a Germanic language hence they must be Germanic. Same for the French, they speak a Romance languages so they must be Latins. Well (partially) wrong and wrong. Modern English people are a mix of the old Celts that inhabitated the British Isles and of the Germanics invadors just like modern French people are a mix of the old Gauls (aka Celts) that inhabitated the Gauls and of the various Germanic tribes that later invaded them too.

If you look purely at a linguistic perspective then English is the most celtic and latin influenced Germanic language while French is the most germanic and celtic influenced Romance language. Interestingly the name "Great Britain" derives from the Latin word "Britannia" while the name "France" derives from the Germanic word "Frank"
This is what i was talking about with the Germanic invaders. Odd that they still cluster close with Grace O' Malley's reply to me. It's Very interesting.

[Grace O'Malley]

I thought Dutch had Frankish blood? And if so how do they still cluster close like that still?


The difference between Scots, Irish, English, Germans, Danes, Dutch, Norwegians, Swedish, Belgians etc.. In North West Europe is small genetically.

If you look at genetic plots all those populations cluster together closely. If the Irish are Basque descended then why are English, South Dutch and West Germans closer to Basque than the Irish? Well not necessarily Basque but Spanish populations as the Basque are off on their own. I've added Graham's quote because it is correct.

[Cody Gearhart]

If you look at genetic plots all those populations cluster together closely. If the Irish are Basque descended then why are English, South Dutch and West Germans closer to Basque than the Irish? I've added Graham's quote because it is correct.
Then what are the Irish closest to?

[Grace O'Malley]

Then what are the Irish closest to?

Can you read the plots? The closest populations to the Irish are West Scots and Orcadians but they are very close to all the North West European populations. They aren't anymore descended from Basques than the Dutch for example.

[Gooding]

Can you read the plots? The closest populations to the Irish are West Scots and Orcadians but they are very close to all the North West European populations. They aren't anymore descended from Basques than the Dutch for example.

As somebody of Western Scottish heritage, all I can say to that is thank God!! I'm rather of the opinion at this point that Europe is like a huge tribe with close clans clustering genetically together. It's nice to feel like you're a part of something bigger than yourself, you know?

[Cody Gearhart]

Can you read the plots? The closest populations to the Irish are West Scots and Orcadians but they are very close to all the North West European populations. They aren't anymore descended from Basques than the Dutch for example.
Oh i see now. Had to study it a bit more closely. What are Dutch closest to?

[Jägerstaffel]

But they do have more Germanic influence due to anglo-saxons which came from southern jutland? Correct me if i'm wrong.

The Anglo-Saxon invasion is nowadays thought to be more of a cultural change than a genetic change. In even the most highly occupied areas the average Englishman carries at most 20% of the DNA from the invaders. There's a thin topsoil of Germanic DNA on the bedrock of Celtic Briton DNA to loosely paraphrase a quote from geneticist Bryan Sykes.

The indigenous ancestral NW European peoples are all very closely related though.

[Cody Gearhart]

The Anglo-Saxon invasion is nowadays thought to be more of a cultural change than a genetic change. In even the most highly occupied areas the average Englishman carries at most 20% of the DNA from the invaders. There's a thin topsoil of Germanic DNA on the bedrock of Celtic Briton DNA to loosely paraphrase a quote from geneticist Bryan Sykes.

The indigenous ancestral NW European peoples are all very closely related though.
Hmm interesting. Thats surprising for me i guess. Thanks.

[Neon Knight]

That link Neon, doesn't deserve to be in the genetic section. Posting propaganda politics from last September. That stuff is really depressing to me. :(

It did link in with what Madadh-Allaidh said in the later part of his post. No more misplaced than your thread about Scottish council tax laws in the general news section, but much more interesting :cool:

[Neon Knight]

The Anglo-Saxon invasion is nowadays thought to be more of a cultural change than a genetic change. In even the most highly occupied areas the average Englishman carries at most 20% of the DNA from the invaders. There's a thin topsoil of Germanic DNA on the bedrock of Celtic Briton DNA to loosely paraphrase a quote from geneticist Bryan Sykes.

The indigenous ancestral NW European peoples are all very closely related though.

The English in general (not just the south-east) have about 45 to 50% German/Scandinavian type DNA but the Welsh and Scots have similar amounts as well, so the problem is trying to work out how much of the Germanic stuff was already in the Celtic/Roman Britons before the AngloSaxons and Vikings came. But the two most recent studies both estimated a contribution of around 25% from post-Roman invaders/immigrants. That seems a reasonable guess to me, taking into consideration the change in language and culture during the Dark Age.

I've posted this map a few times but you might have missed it: http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

[Petalpusher]

The English in general (not just the south-east) have about 45 to 50% German/Scandinavian type DNA but the Welsh and Scots have similar amounts as well, so the problem is trying to work out how much of the Germanic stuff was already in the Celtic/Roman Britons before the AngloSaxons and Vikings came. But the two most recent studies both estimated a contribution of around 25% from post-Roman invaders/immigrants. That seems a reasonable guess to me, taking into consideration the change in language and culture during the Dark Age.

I've posted this map a few times but you might have missed it: http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

Wales have the most W Germany but they totally lack one similarity all others have, N & NE France, like it stopped right at the border. It's something that would be of interest to dig further.

[Jackson]

The English in general (not just the south-east) have about 45 to 50% German/Scandinavian type DNA but the Welsh and Scots have similar amounts as well, so the problem is trying to work out how much of the Germanic stuff was already in the Celtic/Roman Britons before the AngloSaxons and Vikings came. But the two most recent studies both estimated a contribution of around 25% from post-Roman invaders/immigrants. That seems a reasonable guess to me, taking into consideration the change in language and culture during the Dark Age.

I've posted this map a few times but you might have missed it: http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

Yeah i think 10-40% with a most likely amount of around 30% was the most recent estimate, and seems reasonable. Also fits with a mass migration as well IMO, given that it's probably been reduced to some extent since those times.

[Hevo]

I thought Dutch had Frankish blood? And if so how do they still cluster close like that still?

They do but that's not the point. Groups like Franks/Saxons/Frisians etc and Celtic groups in British Isles/Ireland were probably genetically quite similar and had same/similar sources. That's one of the main reasons why NW Europeans are still genetically very close to each other on these maps.

[Cody Gearhart]

They do but that's not the point. Groups like Franks/Saxons/Frisians etc and Celtic groups in British Isles/Ireland were probably genetically quite similar and had same/similar sources. That's one of the main reasons why NW Europeans are still genetically very close to each other on these maps.
Aha!!! Thank you! That makes so much sense to me now!

[Neon Knight]

Wales have the most W Germany but they totally lack one similarity all others have, N & NE France, like it stopped right at the border. It's something that would be of interest to dig further.

Yeah, it's pretty mysterious. They went all the way up to Orkney but did not touch Wales. It looks unnatural, as if there was something political involved. I suggested to Grace that this NE French element might represent the Beaker People but then Beaker culture was in Wales, so I don't know. Any ideas?

[Neon Knight]

------------

[de Burgh II]

Test out your Celto-Germanic heritage with MDLP k12. :joker000:

# Population Percent
1 Celto_Germanic 36.62
2 Iberian 14.86
3 East_European 14.8
4 Paleo_Mediterranean 14.68
5 Balto_Finnic 7.21
6 Caucasian 6.12
7 Volga_Uralic 3.09
8 South_Central_Asian 0.86
9 Uralic_Permic 0.84
10 Paleo_Balkanic 0.81
11 Paleo_North_European 0.11

[Gooding]

Test out your Celto-Germanic heritage with MDLP k12. :joker000:

# Population Percent
1 Celto_Germanic 36.62
2 Iberian 14.86
3 East_European 14.8
4 Paleo_Mediterranean 14.68
5 Balto_Finnic 7.21
6 Caucasian 6.12
7 Volga_Uralic 3.09
8 South_Central_Asian 0.86
9 Uralic_Permic 0.84
10 Paleo_Balkanic 0.81
11 Paleo_North_European 0.11

Aw, Hell! All right!:P

Population
East_European 19.02%
Paleo_Mediterranean 15.11%
Iberian 13.68%
Caucasian 5.80%
Uralic_Permic 2.55%
Balto_Finnic 8.85%
Paleo_Balkanic 0.83%
Celto_Germanic 32.31%
Paleo_North_European 1.61%
South_Central_Asian 0.23%
Volga_Uralic -
Altaic_Turkic -

[Gooding]

Here's something with an Oracle..
MDLP K=12 Oracle results:
Kit M372705

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 Celto_Germanic 32.31
2 East_European 19.02
3 Paleo_Mediterranean 15.11
4 Iberian 13.68
5 Balto_Finnic 8.85
6 Caucasian 5.8
7 Uralic_Permic 2.55
8 Paleo_North_European 1.61
9 Paleo_Balkanic 0.83
10 South_Central_Asian 0.23

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 GER (German) 7.55
2 FRN (French) 15.41
3 CEU (CEU) 19.82
4 HNG (Hungarian) 20.02
5 GBRWAL (Welsh) 22.56
6 BLG (Bulgarian) 23.06
7 SLV (Slovenian) 23.59
8 PRT (Portuguese) 24.14
9 IBR (Iberian) 24.37
10 SPN (Spaniard) 24.5
11 SWD (Swedish) 24.61
12 GBRKN (British from Kent) 25.12
13 SLK (Slovak) 26.73
14 GBRCORN (Cornish) 28.75
15 CRT (Croat) 28.85
16 NITAL (North-Italian) 29.23
17 BSN (Bosnian) 29.34
18 RMN (Romanian) 29.55
19 SRB (Serbian) 30.41
20 GBRARG (British from Argyle) 30.84

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.1% FRN (French) + 29.9% ETN (Estonian) @ 2.67
2 73.3% FRN (French) + 26.7% LTV (Latvian) @ 3.66
3 73% FRN (French) + 27% MLD (Moldovian) @ 3.84
4 79% GER (German) + 21% SPN (Spaniard) @ 3.97
5 79.3% GER (German) + 20.7% IBR (Iberian) @ 4.21
6 79.6% GER (German) + 20.4% PRT (Portuguese) @ 4.46
7 71.2% FRN (French) + 28.8% RUS (Russian) @ 4.67
8 73% FRN (French) + 27% CRUS (Central-Russian) @ 4.74
9 84.9% GER (German) + 15.1% CRS (Corsican) @ 5.03
10 91.4% GER (German) + 8.6% SRD (Sardnian) @ 5.11
11 84% GER (German) + 16% NITAL (North-Italian) @ 5.2
12 71.7% FRN (French) + 28.3% MRD (Erzya) @ 5.21
13 70.1% FRN (French) + 29.9% UKR (Ukrainian) @ 5.21
14 73.3% GER (German) + 26.7% FRN (French) @ 5.42
15 72.9% FRN (French) + 27.1% POL (Polish) @ 5.46
16 71.6% FRN (French) + 28.4% NRUS (North-Russian) @ 5.47
17 73.7% FRN (French) + 26.3% SRUS (South-Russian) @ 5.52
18 89.4% GER (German) + 10.6% SIC (Sicilian) @ 5.66
19 88.2% GER (German) + 11.8% CITAL (Central-Italian) @ 5.77
20 73% FRN (French) + 27% EUKR (East-Ukrainian) @ 6.04

[Gooding]

So Celto- Germanic pretty much means French and German. What on earth is up with all these Eastern European readings?? Am I more Slavic than 00000.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000.000000000000.1%, perhaps?

[Jägerstaffel]

Test out your Celto-Germanic heritage with MDLP k12. :joker000:

Myself: Celto_Germanic 33.45%
My son: Celto_Germanic 33.76%

[Gooding]

Bumpiski.

[Grace O'Malley]

Here's mine. I think we've discussed this before on another thread but I could be mistaken. The Oracles are way off on most MDLP calculators. The best on is the K23b.

# Population Percent
1 Celto_Germanic 41.02
2 East_European 18.37
3 Paleo_Mediterranean 12.27
4 Iberian 10.27
5 Balto_Finnic 6.63
6 Caucasian 5.89
7 Uralic_Permic 2.63
8 Volga_Uralic 1.26
9 Paleo_Balkanic 0.78
10 South_Central_Asian 0.61
11 Paleo_North_European 0.26

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 GER (German) 7.25
2 CEU (CEU) 12.43
3 FRN (French) 15.14
4 GBRWAL (Welsh) 15.6
5 SWD (Swedish) 17.42
6 GBRKN (British from Kent) 18.39
7 GBRCORN (Cornish) 21.99
8 HNG (Hungarian) 24.08
9 GBRARG (British from Argyle) 24.54
10 NRW (Norwegian) 25.57
11 PRT (Portuguese) 27.71
12 SLV (Slovenian) 28.14
13 BLG (Bulgarian) 28.25
14 IBR (Iberian) 28.38
15 SPN (Spaniard) 28.91
16 SLK (Slovak) 29.98
17 GBRORK (Orcadian) 32.17
18 NITAL (North-Italian) 33.24
19 CRT (Croat) 33.92
20 BSN (Bosnian) 34.56

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.9% GER (German) + 27.1% GBRKN (British from Kent) @ 2.6
2 76.5% GER (German) + 23.5% GBRCORN (Cornish) @ 2.73
3 69.6% GER (German) + 30.4% GBRWAL (Welsh) @ 2.75
4 64.4% GER (German) + 35.6% CEU (CEU) @ 2.81
5 56.9% GBRKN (British from Kent) + 43.1% HNG (Hungarian) @ 3.42
6 61% GBRWAL (Welsh) + 39% HNG (Hungarian) @ 3.51
7 80% GER (German) + 20% NRW (Norwegian) @ 3.52
8 83.6% GER (German) + 16.4% GBRORK (Orcadian) @ 3.61
9 66.7% CEU (CEU) + 33.3% HNG (Hungarian) @ 3.72
10 74% CEU (CEU) + 26% CRT (Croat) @ 3.84
11 74.4% CEU (CEU) + 25.6% BSN (Bosnian) @ 3.85
12 69.1% GBRWAL (Welsh) + 30.9% CRT (Croat) @ 3.94
13 52.3% GBRCORN (Cornish) + 47.7% HNG (Hungarian) @ 3.96
14 68.2% GBRKN (British from Kent) + 31.8% UKR (Ukrainian) @ 4.04
15 65.3% GBRKN (British from Kent) + 34.7% CRT (Croat) @ 4.06
16 70.3% CEU (CEU) + 29.7% SLV (Slovenian) @ 4.1
17 71.9% GBRWAL (Welsh) + 28.1% UKR (Ukrainian) @ 4.11
18 64.9% GBRWAL (Welsh) + 35.1% SLV (Slovenian) @ 4.15
19 60.8% GBRKN (British from Kent) + 39.2% SLV (Slovenian) @ 4.15
20 75.3% CEU (CEU) + 24.7% SRB (Serbian) @ 4.19

[de Burgh II]

Here's mine. I think we've discussed this before on another thread but I could be mistaken. The Oracles are way off on most MDLP calculators. The best on is the K23b.

# Population Percent
1 Celto_Germanic 41.02
2 East_European 18.37
3 Paleo_Mediterranean 12.27
4 Iberian 10.27
5 Balto_Finnic 6.63
6 Caucasian 5.89
7 Uralic_Permic 2.63
8 Volga_Uralic 1.26
9 Paleo_Balkanic 0.78
10 South_Central_Asian 0.61
11 Paleo_North_European 0.26

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 GER (German) 7.25
2 CEU (CEU) 12.43
3 FRN (French) 15.14
4 GBRWAL (Welsh) 15.6
5 SWD (Swedish) 17.42
6 GBRKN (British from Kent) 18.39
7 GBRCORN (Cornish) 21.99
8 HNG (Hungarian) 24.08
9 GBRARG (British from Argyle) 24.54
10 NRW (Norwegian) 25.57
11 PRT (Portuguese) 27.71
12 SLV (Slovenian) 28.14
13 BLG (Bulgarian) 28.25
14 IBR (Iberian) 28.38
15 SPN (Spaniard) 28.91
16 SLK (Slovak) 29.98
17 GBRORK (Orcadian) 32.17
18 NITAL (North-Italian) 33.24
19 CRT (Croat) 33.92
20 BSN (Bosnian) 34.56

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.9% GER (German) + 27.1% GBRKN (British from Kent) @ 2.6
2 76.5% GER (German) + 23.5% GBRCORN (Cornish) @ 2.73
3 69.6% GER (German) + 30.4% GBRWAL (Welsh) @ 2.75
4 64.4% GER (German) + 35.6% CEU (CEU) @ 2.81
5 56.9% GBRKN (British from Kent) + 43.1% HNG (Hungarian) @ 3.42
6 61% GBRWAL (Welsh) + 39% HNG (Hungarian) @ 3.51
7 80% GER (German) + 20% NRW (Norwegian) @ 3.52
8 83.6% GER (German) + 16.4% GBRORK (Orcadian) @ 3.61
9 66.7% CEU (CEU) + 33.3% HNG (Hungarian) @ 3.72
10 74% CEU (CEU) + 26% CRT (Croat) @ 3.84
11 74.4% CEU (CEU) + 25.6% BSN (Bosnian) @ 3.85
12 69.1% GBRWAL (Welsh) + 30.9% CRT (Croat) @ 3.94
13 52.3% GBRCORN (Cornish) + 47.7% HNG (Hungarian) @ 3.96
14 68.2% GBRKN (British from Kent) + 31.8% UKR (Ukrainian) @ 4.04
15 65.3% GBRKN (British from Kent) + 34.7% CRT (Croat) @ 4.06
16 70.3% CEU (CEU) + 29.7% SLV (Slovenian) @ 4.1
17 71.9% GBRWAL (Welsh) + 28.1% UKR (Ukrainian) @ 4.11
18 64.9% GBRWAL (Welsh) + 35.1% SLV (Slovenian) @ 4.15
19 60.8% GBRKN (British from Kent) + 39.2% SLV (Slovenian) @ 4.15
20 75.3% CEU (CEU) + 24.7% SRB (Serbian) @ 4.19

:bow00002:

[Grace O'Malley]

:bow00002:

I wonder where that Celto-Germanic peaks?

[de Burgh II]

I wonder where that Celto-Germanic peaks?

The good ol' Gaelish blood of course! :p

[Gooding]

The good ol' Gaelish blood of course! :p

The blood of the Gael is where you will find Celto- Germanic at its highest levels. :thumb001:

[Neon Knight]

Celtic is the new Germanic.

[Gooding]

Celtic is the new Germanic.

Evidently, but wait.. either Germanic or Nordic will come along and it'll be it's turn to be cool for awhile.

[Oneeye]

East_European 15.45%
Paleo_Mediterranean 15.55%
Iberian 12.03%
Caucasian 5.40%
Uralic_Permic 3.33%
Balto_Finnic 5.74%
Paleo_Balkanic 1.70%
Celto_Germanic 37.43%
Paleo_North_European 1.47%
South_Central_Asian 1.33%
Volga_Uralic 0.57%
Altaic_Turkic -

[Petalpusher]

Celto_Germanic 30.79%

Barely made it, i think the bouncer of this club begins to look at you funny under 30% ;)


I wonder where that Celto-Germanic peaks?


Credits to Graham :

Celto_Germanic

41.51% -- Anglo Saxon Ave, East England
41.33% -- Unetice Culture
40.26% -- Iron Age Briton, East England
37.54% -- Denmark 2196-2023 BC
36.81% -- Sintashta Culture

[Neon Knight]

Yeah, it's pretty mysterious. They went all the way up to Orkney but did not touch Wales. It looks unnatural, as if there was something political involved. I suggested to Grace that this NE French element might represent the Beaker People but then Beaker culture was in Wales, so I don't know. Any ideas?

I think now that the NE French DNA which is in Britain but not Wales came from one or more Celtic migrations - Urnfield or Halstatt/La Tène. Whoever they were it looks like the Welsh successfully resisted them, just as they would later resist the Anglo-Saxons. Only the Romans conquered the Welsh before Norman/Angevin England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

[Gooding]

Bumping this conversation up!

[Ludibrium]

Been reading quite a bit about the Iron Age (also some bits about the Bronze age) recently, lots going on. One interesting thing in particular is that the divide between the south, east and central areas (lowlands mostly) and the upland Atlantic west and north - that arguably you can also see in the modern genetic clusters, which follow it very well actually, big red blob of the south-east in particular - goes back a fair way, and is in significant part due to landscape & environment. In particular the climate and altitude of many areas in the north and west makes arable agriculture very risky - ie it's possible in lots of places but small fluctuations in climate that might go fairly unnoticed (or only be a minor problem) in the south-east would cause crop failures in north and west making it risky business to rely on a grain-based economy in those areas, but in the southern, central and eastern lowlands it was the norm (although it was a 'mixed economy'). There's little evidence for large scale grain cultivation in those northern and western areas but you do find some evidence for the consumption of those products, so probably people practiced small-scale arable agriculture but relied primarily on a pastoral economy (generally sheep and cattle, although in many areas cattle made up the vast majority of the diet, for example in some parts of Wales). Also many of these areas were 'aceramic' in contrast to the south-eastern regions and also interestingly to the northern and western isles. Although in certain conditions well made wooden and leather objects have been found, so no reason to assume they were more technologically primitive, but that it wasn't necessary or viable.

Also interesting are the different modes of settlement from the middle to late iron age in particular, f.e in the east it was mostly open farmsteads, small settlements or enclosures with the occasional 'hillfort', while in the south-centre, south-west and west there were many 'traditional' hillforts, while in the far south-west of what's now England and in the south-west of Wales 'rounds' (small enclosed farmsteads) were extremely common, but not so much larger settlements. Up in Scotland Brochs and Wheelhouses were common in particularly on the Isles from the middle of the Iron Age onwards, as well as crannogs (lake/marsh settlements) and duns.

I suppose it chimes really with ancient accounts saying those near the coast (in the south-eastern lowland zone mostly) were more grain cultivators and had close links with northern Gaulish groups, while those further inland survived 'on meat and milk' (suggests a pastoral or heavily animal-based economy anyway).

A lot of the enclosures in southern areas in particular were roundhouses within rectangular or sub-rectangular enclosures, and iirc many sites had rectangular grain storage buildings (four post granaries), so the choice of round architecture throughout the isles at least for the central building of the homestead must have been a cultural preference i would have thought, rather than a purely technological thing, a building tradition.

Also was interesting reading about how the elite were thought to have used chariots - more as utility vehicles - ie they would ride them into battle, dismount and fight and foot and then if they got into a particularly dangerous situation or needed to move along elsewhere or take a break - they would retreat to the chariot and move on.

And apparently they were fond of wearing lots of bright clothing (and jewellery if they had it), but that's not surprising.

Just splurging out some random bits i read recently, can't remember all of it though.

The use of chariots in ancient Britain was always intriguing. Apparently Britain was one of the last holdouts in Eurasia to continue the use of chariots all the way into the late Iron Age and Classical era. Most other places had totally replaced battle chariots with more practical regular cavalry. It supports the idea that there were historical anachronisms that may have persisted in Britian for longer than the rest of antiquity. From what I know, there were places (in the west and north most likely) where they didn't even make (significant) use of iron until after the Roman era. Basically tribes stuck in the Bronze Age. Though I'm sure there were some other areas of Europe that were equally "stuck in time", in places like Fennoscandia etc.

The pastoralist/agriculturalist distinction was definitely there too. The southeast was seeing constant waves of conquest and settlement, while areas past the midlands were relatively untouched for a long time. People think it started with the Anglo-Saxons, but that's just not true. Before them there were Gauls, Belgae, and many others before them arriving in significant numbers. From what I read, southeast Britain likely had a solid Belgic upper-stratum for a time. Groups like the Catuvellauni were most likely Belgic, among others.

Most likely, this is the reason the hillforts increase once you get into the Midlands and beyond. They built those because they were constantly fighting off continental invaders that had gotten a foothold in the southeast.

[Septentrion]

Celto-Germanic people are not only limited to the British Isles, but in the Low Countries, Germany, northern France as well!!!

[Hevo]

Celto-Germanic people are not only limited to the British Isles, but in the Low Countries, Germany, northern France as well!!!

Except for the Northern Netherlands and NW Germany.

[Septentrion]

Most native English people are more related to Basque people in northern Iberia than Nordic-looking Germanics. Funny you English with your Germanic delusions.

Nonsense! You're the one hallucinating about Basques a little too much! The English are Germanic people.

[Dr. Bambo]

Yes, but mixed to some extent with Celts but not in East Anglia.

[Septentrion]

Yes, but mixed to some extent with Celts but not in East Anglia.

Oh well, tell me who is not "mixed"? Germans also have Slavic admixture in the east and south, even in the north in the Ferhmarn Island ( Wendish), as well as Celtic in western parts. Some Hunnish admixture in the south in Bavaria. In every invasion, there has been intermingling between the conquerors and natives. As Anglo-Saxons settled in England, they eventually gradually intermarried with Celtic Britons, but had a strict system of segregation in order to ensure the success of their lineage. This is why today over half of the English and Lowland Scottish male line is from Germanic. Thus the English are essentially Germanic.