To survive the 21st century and ahead, recolonization of Africa is a must

[poiuytrewq0987]

In WW2, the war between Germany and Russia came down to one thing. Resources. Hitler's war with Russia was really about resources Hitler needed to be victorious by ways of making Germany impossible to defeat. What Russia had was far ahead compared to the oilfields in Romania or anything else the Axis had. Vast stretches of empty land with sparse colonization of Russians however the same vast stretches of land are extremely rich in resources. It is little Africa. With that, Russia has managed to grow to be the largest European ethnic group and essentially able to maintain the largest military out of all European nations.

Without those things, if her emperors didn't set out to conquer for Third Rome, Russia would have been a minor power. And China in charge of Siberia, possibly, a global power today. But that didn't happen, Russians forestalled that fate and ensured that Europeans would rule the world and continue to do so but today we are essentially handing over the harness to non-Europeans and leaving our fate up to them. Control of such resources are extremely important for from them we can create wealth and wealth is what drives man to excellence.

Today, China have been colonizing Africa for some while but this hasn't been noted by the Western media except for a story there and there put out to be only buried quickly. If they continue to do so, they will have absolute control over much of Africa and her resources. The Russians found a seemingly bottomless well of black gold in Siberia but in Africa? That bottomless well is likely to be outnumbered by many bottomless wells of black gold. Africa is a gold mine, left still untouched and with the European scramble for Africa only scratched the surface.

If we are to survive the future then we have to change things. We have to dig in Africa until we reach the planet core. We have to become absolute rulers of Africa. This is only a simple case of Darwinism. If we don't do it, they will, and they'll triumph over us eventually.

[Saruman]

Firstly 'us' must have a government which cares about 'us', and then we can talk about grandiose conquests.

[Susi]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Flag_of_Rhodesia.svg/400px-Flag_of_Rhodesia.svg.png

Recolonise or reassert?

[Albion]

I think Britain should retake "Zimbabwe" and partition it into two nations - a black Zimbabwe and a European Rhodesia for the white settlers and new settlers.
Same with South Africa, recreate a boer state separate from the black one.

[Arne]

Should England kill the Boers once again ??

[Invictus_88]

There's a lot of nonsense being spouted here;

Voinstvennyi,
China's economic involvement in Africa can't reasonably be described as colonisation, given the absence of colonies, military settlement or annexation. It is simple economic involvement, and not nearly so politically engaged at the British "economic involvement" in India and the West Indies under the East India and West Indian Companies.
In light of this, your view resembles pretty audacious scaremongering - an effect only deepened by your reference to conflicts on the scale of the Second World War.
Overall, I can't see that there's real argument for doing more than reassessing the type of economic and political engagement which western countries have in Africa. It's been noted - for example - that China's edge over 'the West' in securing contracts in African countries lies in their willingness to deal less scrupulously with nations with poor human rights records, and that this effect lessens the degree to with western countries are able to affect positive change, and the degree to which they are able to capitalise on the mineral wealth of African nations.
The answer certainly can't lie in rhetoric and neocolonialism (if nothing else, 'the West' no longer possesses the economic supremacy necessary to do that), but can only - surely - lie in a reassassment of the way in which western nations trade with African nations in light of Chinese competition.

Celtabria,
i. The baffling idiocy of a country with an army of fewer than 100,000 taking a country the size of Zimbabwe by force, and then somehow enforcing a new apartheid system, would be amusing if I didn't have such a hunch that you meant it seriously.
ii. There are barely any white farmers still working in southern Africa, they've rightly jumped ship apart from a few die-hards.
iii. Please, tell me you're joking.

[Albion]

Should England kill the Boers once again ??

Always "England", never "Britain" when something bad happens:rolleyes2::rolleyes2: No, "England" (Britain) shouldn't.
To clarify what I said earlier, such a republic for the "Boers" or Afrikaans in South Africa would be a separate sovereign nation apart from South Africa, who would create it and how I don't know, unlike Zimbabwe South Africa would be pretty hard to take.



Celtabria,
i. The baffling idiocy of a country with an army of fewer than 100,000 taking a country the size of Zimbabwe by force, and then somehow enforcing a new apartheid system, would be amusing if I didn't have such a hunch that you meant it seriously.
ii. There are barely any white farmers still working in southern Africa, they've rightly jumped ship apart from a few die-hards.
iii. Please, tell me you're joking.



i. Actually its more like 435,500 compared to Zimbabwe's 53,800 and no, you completely missed the point, by two states / nations that's what I meant, two fully sovereign nations - the remnant of Zimbabwe for the blacks and a smaller state for the White Rhodesians. Apatheid doesn't come into it because blacks wouldn't be allowed in, think "White Australia policy" :rolleyes::rolleyes2:
And how exactly is it amusing? I hardly think its anything to joke about, so you really reckon Mugabe's banana republic can take on a European country? Maybe if it were Iceland then yeah :rolleyes::D maybe it could:D:D
And before you go accusing me of being an imperialist its like this - Rhodesia would become a independent republic once it had been created, as would the remnant of Zimbabwe.
Really, when did you become such a defeatist and African-lover?

ii. So what, that's only because like you say, most have been forced out. It could be repopulated.

iii. No its not a joke, but then again I know it'll probably never happen, its about as likely as Guernsey invading America and winning (no offence USA:D:D)

The UK isn't a big superpower any more although some would like to think it is, neither are France or Germany but they can all pull their weight and still perform quite well on the world stage, I hardly think a few banana republics could stand up to them.
And as for native resistance, disunity is rife in Zimbabwe and all of Africa basically, I doubt they'd unite against a "common enemy" and even if they did what are they going to fight with? Sticks? Stones? Also white farming communities would prefer the sparsely populated highlands and would only take up a small area of Zimbabwe's actual land area, I think it could be done either by Britain, America or a range of allies because I'm not a defeatist.

Some stats:

Number of troops per country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops)
Aircraft carriers by country (alas, no use in Zimbabwe) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service)
Level of military equipment by country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipment)
List of countries with nukes (which would be unlikely to use in such a war) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons)
Military budget per capita by nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures_per_cap ita)

[Michael Vilmar Avery]

Yes it is very interesting that the China-man colonization of Africa doesn't get more play in the media.

Could the Elites not want to tip off to the Populace how weak they are in the face of the China-man? :confused:

Do the Elites not want to call abusive China-men 'racists' for hurting Africans because they want that slur to be used on only Whites? :confused:

Anyhow have always thought that one of the dumbest moves the USA has made was getting rid of Subic Bay ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Naval_Base_Subic_Bay ) That baby was right smack dab in Chinas maritime traffic lane and could be used to really mess with them! Of all the bases to close down it had to be that one! Oh well America is going downhill anyways probably. :(

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Private interests from warlords to unscrupulous corporations to arms dealers and organized crime have helped to fuel African conflicts over the past decade as they vie for control over valuable resources.


Globalization has added a key dimension to contemporary warfare - armed groups from some of the world's most remote places can be directly linked with commerce in the 'technological heartland of metropolitan society'.

A complex international network of smugglers, brokers and traders means that everything from diamond rings and garden furniture to the components of mobile phones and Playstations may have originated as the booty of Africa's conflicts.


The Congo will not forget Leopold 2.


Africa is vastly rich in natural resources but the continent has paid a terrible price for this wealth. In the past decade horrendous wars in Angola, Sierra Leone, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Sudan and Liberia have been fuelled by fighting for control over diamonds, timber, gold, minerals and oil.

If you think China is interested investing in Africa at a grand scale and later to be told to leave(like the Indians in Uganda),you are wrong.



ABSTRACT There is an ongoing debate about the presence of Chinese in Lesotho with respect to their trade and investments and how they are helping the economy and at the same time exploiting the local masses.
The paper shows that some people appreciate and acknowledge the role played by the Chinese through their trade and investments in fighting poverty and therefore helping in poverty alleviation among poor households.
Many others however argue that the Chinese are very exploitative.
The paper concludes that in reality, the Chinese have invested much in Lesotho through which the low-income consumers and poor Basotho are benefiting despite the shortcomings levied against them.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:vw6-Hs_3WaMJ:www.krepublishers.com/02-Journals/JSS/JSS-19-0-000-09-Web/JSS-19-2-000-09-Abst-PDF/JSS-19-2-109-2009-743-Tanga-P-T/JSS-19-2-109-2009-743-Tanga-P-T-Ab.pdf+Chinese+trade+in+Lesotho&hl=en&gl=za&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShXmWExh4EUFm64iiYUu368PkEy1MHvzKxiRNlr 5EF3BNYQH4AxQNTCLHeSdzs606YfWXsnOIeIXT79XzYM1Qb5ND rRWnjaZG1mTQXOhv3SBR0kNGKFxdGyhhxoco85yKDrniXC&sig=AHIEtbSTOSUWISv5wVw96ljD5Etro6vptQ

[Curtis24]

I recall reading somewhere there are several hundred thousand Chinese nationals living in Africa. That sure sounds like "colonization" to me...

[Lulletje Rozewater]

I recall reading somewhere there are several hundred thousand Chinese nationals living in Africa. That sure sounds like "colonization" to me...
300.000 plus.
Selling crap clothing,crap Chinese food, shitty drugs, and crackers-buying Rhino horn,elephant tusk and mansions.
One Chinkie intended buying my farm,which is on top of the hill, for cash:D
Poor sod thought he was dealing with a South African jumping to sell for cash----as in money laundering.
His smile and his slit eyes were a united front for innocence.

[Grumpy Cat]

I recall reading somewhere there are several hundred thousand Chinese nationals living in Africa. That sure sounds like "colonization" to me...

They're only colonizers if they're white.

The Canadian media has been trying to play the Chinese colonization of Africa as a good thing. (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/03/29/f-china-in-africa.html)

[Lulletje Rozewater]

They're only colonizers if they're white.

The Canadian media has been trying to play the Chinese colonization of Africa as a good thing. (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/03/29/f-china-in-africa.html)

The Chinese underhandedness is in NOT paying taxes.
Any businessman in South Africa knows that the Chinese have the ability to 'conkel' the Vat on merchandise.
It is massive,but SARS close their eyes.

[Grumpy Cat]

I just don't understand how Africa, after centuries of European and Arab colonization, are just pretty much handing the KY Jelly over to the Chinese. :coffee:

[Austin]

It is rather amusing how Africa is just as economically pillaged today as it was under European colonialism if not more so.

I don't view it as surprising though and always sit in amazement at how people can sit around shocked and in awe of African ineptness on all levels.

Africans have always been tribal people.....they never achieved any true level of sophistication such as the West or East did. I would give more props to Native Americans and their culture and level of sophistication than I would to African ones.

[Michael Vilmar Avery]

I just don't understand how Africa, after centuries of European and Arab colonization, are just pretty much handing the KY Jelly over to the Chinese. :coffee:

African War Lords are always fighting amongst each other to be ''The Man' so they do not realize the need to team up against invasive China-men.

Africans and also Blacks in America have what is known as the 'Crabs in a bucket' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality) frame of mind.

An example here in America would be the relationship between President Obama and Governor Patterson Obama asked Patterson to resign and Patterson stood for re-election anyways and is now even working to move the 'Ground Zero Mosque' purely out of spit to Obama who has taken a different position on the issue. 'If Patterson can't be Governor, well then Obama can't be President' is how this destructive Black thinks.

[Susi]

Africa is vastly rich in natural resources but the continent has paid a terrible price for this wealth. In the past decade horrendous wars in Angola, Sierra Leone, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Sudan and Liberia have been fuelled by fighting for control over diamonds, timber, gold, minerals and oil.

Though resources are a factor in conflict, I'm more apt to believe in tribal differences as a cause of conflict, both artificially created and by blood.



Africans have always been tribal people.....they never achieved any true level of sophistication such as the West or East did. I would give more props to Native Americans and their culture and level of sophistication than I would to African ones.

Really? Did you forget that it's a massive, diverse continent? The Abyssinian empire (the only one to resist the great 'scramble' for land) lasted almost 3,000 years. The Mali empire had texts on mathematics and astronomy. The Egyptian empire, arguably also African, contributed many inventions to scientific fields. I don't dispute some European influence in these empires, however, I think that you are missing out on a large portion of human history.

We need to stop referring to Africa as one large continent and Africans as one people, because they clearly aren't.

[The Lawspeaker]

I think Britain should retake "Zimbabwe" and partition it into two nations - a black Zimbabwe and a European Rhodesia for the white settlers and new settlers.
Same with South Africa, recreate a boer state separate from the black one.
I think that South Africa should be colonized by Europe and the blacks should be.. driven back into Africa where they came from (this includes Lesotho and Swaziland). After all: it isn't their land for starters as apart from the San there were no people living there when the European came along.

When it comes to Namibia the claims of the Herero's and the other tribes should be assessed and if found to be untrue they should be kicked across the border. The San and the Rehoboth Basters should be respected and encouraged to join in the rule of the country. Namibia and South Africa should then be encouraged to join into a Unie van Suid Afrika. Which should not join the Commonwealth of Nations but instead join the Kingdom of the Netherlands as a constituent country because the Brits nicked the country from us for starters. After some 100 years after which adventurous Dutch, English, Huguenot French, Walloon and German immigrants join the existing and returning European population it should be independent. It should be a policy of mainly the Afrikaners to let their population grow and large families should definitely be encouraged. The country will become independent when the 40 million base (majority Afrikaner) has been reached.

Then on to Rhodesia: it should be partitioned and re-colonized by Europeans that freshly arrived from Europe, British from South Africa that want to move up north and dispossessed European farmers/ other Europeans from Rhodesia and other African nations and those educated blacks that prefer to live under European majority rule and it should become part of the Commonwealth of Nations until after 100 years when it could join the Union of South Africa.

It should also be a policy to establish friendly African buffer-states, protecting the Europeans in Southern Africa from the Africans. We should try to let those nations grow rich (to reach European-levels of prosperity) under the Botswana-model which has proven to be a huge success: an educated people, a stable democracy, zero tolerance against corruption.

Those countries should be: Angola, Zambia, Botswana, Mozambique and maybe Madagascar. Further up north we should try to help countries like Equatorial Guinea, São Tomé e Príncipe and Cape Verde. Maybe Europeans should even support the Biafrans if they would rise up again so we can keep that sea lane there safe.
To the east we should decolonize the African islands to the east under the condition that we can station Navy outposts there for the time being and hand them over to their respective peoples but we should help them according to the Chinese model: Réunion, Mauritius and the Seychelles. The British Indian Ocean Territory should just be handed over to it's original folk and be left in peace.

When it comes to helping African countries we should definitely follow the Chinese model. Build and maintain infrastructure and schools while getting access to resources.

[The Lawspeaker]

Personally I would be more in favour then of a British Commonwealth-styled restauration of the Dutch colonial empire:

The King or the Queen would become the King or Queen of the Netherlands, the Netherlands Antilles, Suriname, Suid Afrika and Indonesia.
We could prefer to invest in those places and together with those locals that want to get their place in order root out corruption and negligence and also very important: provide medical care and root out (tropical) diseases, improve their diet (by improving the economy) and lengthening their lifespan (and providing old-age pensions) thus diminishing their necessity to out-breed us. And because those areas fall under the same commonwealth we could give their businesses incentives in the form of a temporal monopoly (and temporal interest-free loans if they are just getting started) on our market when it comes to tropical products and resources that we don't have here. Of course they would have to pay no import duties as well because they are part of the same commonwealth. But movement of people should be restricted for the time being (until the incentives to move to the Netherlands are gone because their wealth is increasing - the only exception being colonials of Dutch descent, people that wish to study here or Afrikaners) but it should be encouraged for people of mixed descent to move to those islands. For the Netherlands Antilles it should be possible to make provisions with Brazil for Antelleans to work there rather then in the Netherlands.

Each country of course needs it's own way of working because of geographical and cultural differences but it would make sense for Indonesia to cherry pick for ideas from neighbouring Singapore and from the Netherlands: strict law and order and with privatisation but with collective bargaining and a welfare state. For Indonesia it could even be advisable to welcome back people of mixed Dutch and Indonesian descent as they could form the mediator between two cultures.

However I do think that the colonies should face some Dutchification in the areas of law, currency, spatial planning (the infrastructure should be remade under Dutch standards and equipped to the local environment), education, social policies and the study of Dutch on all schools should be encouraged and Dutch would be an official language alongside the native languages in Indonesia.
There could even be referendums of restoring Dutch geographic and even street-names or making them bilingual.

When it comes to Indonesia they should be encouraged to drop the Ambonese Islands and Iryan Jaya and focus on stuff that really matters: their own areas.

XiuDVEiBMI8

^ It's time for a modern version of this. But this time with full rights and duties for the native population.

When it comes to Suriname we could repatriate the population and start building on the country. The entire coastal polder should start to resemble a tropical version of the Netherlands when it comes to the infrastructure. And we are going to clean up the mess big time.

wMYNPdK0-1U
We are going to set them free from the mess, disorder and poverty but we are going to teach them that freedom does not just entail rights but also duties.

And they should be encouraged to pick two cities for the developments of ports and industry and their own universities and colleges. The capital Paramaribo should remain host the main international airport.
Like elsewhere in the commonwealth entrepreneurial Surinamese too should receive adequate loans to make sure they can set up their own businesses so the economy could be diversified and everything but essential services like water, social welfare, justice, defence and medical care should be privatized so the people can learn to run them themselves using Dutch guidance. When it comes to agricultural produce the Surinamese should be encouraged to produce rice and tropical herbs and fruits for the Dutch and European market and rich Surinamese and Dutch should be encouraged to rebuild the plantations (for landscape conservation and historical reasons) and now use machine equipment and local people (for a wage) in order to harvest crops that are needed on the market. For the time being the entire education and judicial system taken over by the Dutch and rid of corruption and Dutchified.


The production of electricity could be arranged by the dams at the Prof. dr. ir. W.J. van Blommesteinmeer -lake and by solar panels at once private homes at the countryside but the whole country should be electrified (apart from the jungles) but it would be wise to concentrate the population on the coastal plains.

The Netherlands Antilles could become a tax haven with a banking secret (while still following a Singaporean model economy) like the Cayman Islands and see it's entire education and judicial system taken over and Dutchified.
The Antelleans in the Netherlands should also be made to go home (particularly if they are educated) and when no jobs can be provided we should organise a deal with Brazil and other neighbouring countries. There should be a couple of colleges and universities opened on Sint Maarten and Curaçao and the Dutch and the French should organise the possibility of transferring all of Sint Maarten to Dutch rule (then they get rid of it and we can start organizing things). All the islands (apart from the northern half of Saint Maarten) will be Dutchified. English will be given in school but apart from that rooted out. The languages will be Dutch and Papiamento.

What will be important will be (eco-)tourism and a small scaled economy with small shops and businesses and a modern infrastructre will be created. On Sint Maarten and Curaçao there will be modern urban centres where large scaled businesses and banking should be encouraged.


Note: when these countries have become modern functioning economies with living democracies and no incentive to cause us anymore trouble then they don't have to be on a leesh anymore and the role of the Commonwealth can be slowly diminished

[Albion]

Which should not join the Commonwealth of Nations but instead join the Kingdom of the Netherlands as a constituent country because the Brits nicked the country from us for starters

Sorry about that.


After some 100 years after which adventurous Dutch, English, Huguenot French, Walloon and German immigrants join the existing and returning European population it should be independent.

Yes, good plan. Model it in Australia or NZ, but implement a White South Africa Policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy).


The country will become independent when the 40 million base (majority Afrikaner) has been reached.

Good plan, but I'd say encourage it to reach 150 million.


Then on to Rhodesia: it should be partitioned and re-colonized by Europeans that freshly arrived from Europe, British from South Africa that want to move up north and dispossessed European farmers/ other Europeans from Rhodesia and other African nations and those educated blacks that prefer to live under European majority rule and it should become part of the Commonwealth of Nations until after 100 years when it could join the Union of South Africa.

Exactly! That's what I was saying above, until Invictus shot me down (although with no basis for his arguments, just presumptions).


It should also be a policy to establish friendly African buffer-states, protecting the Europeans in Southern Africa from the Africans. We should try to let those nations grow rich (to reach European-levels of prosperity) under the Botswana-model which has proven to be a huge success: an educated people, a stable democracy, zero tolerance against corruption.

Yes, but that's not enough, there'd need to be border fences and guards and the border should follow natural barriers such as deep gorges, hard-to-cross deserts, etc.


To the east we should decolonize the African islands to the east under the condition that we can station Navy outposts there for the time being and hand them over to their respective peoples but we should help them according to the Chinese model: Réunion, Mauritius and the Seychelles. The British Indian Ocean Territory should just be handed over to it's original folk and be left in peace.

Not necessarily. Decolonize Reunion and most of British Indian Ocean territory (and return it to the Chagosians), keep Diego Garcia as a naval base, France Keeps Europa island and the other uninhabited islands it has.


When it comes to helping African countries we should definitely follow the Chinese model. Build and maintain infrastructure and schools while getting access to resources.

Yes.


The King or the Queen would become the King or Queen of the Netherlands, the Netherlands Antilles, Suriname, Suid Afrika and Indonesia.

Netherlands: Yep
Netherlands Antilles: Yep
Suriname: Why??? Its a disease and fly infested cesspit where only a few thousand live, just like Guyana (aka "British Guiana")
Suid Afrika: Yep, but you'd need the backing of other nations to take it, Britain, France and maybe America.
Indonesia: No chance. That's like Britain saying we're going to get America back :D :D :D The whole population is hostile to Euro/Dutch rule, and to be honest there is a lot of them and the Indonesian military isn't small.


English will be given in school but apart from that rooted out. The languages will be Dutch and Papiamento.

Why? English is useful to them in that part of the world, America has lots of tourists with a lot of money (for the time being anyway :D :D )

[The Lawspeaker]

Sorry about that.
It's alright. Just when the Euro's retake it: stay out. :wink






Suriname: Why??? Its a disease and fly infested cesspit where only a few thousand live, just like Guyana (aka "British Guiana")
We have over a quarter of a million Surinamese here.. effectively more then those that life there. It's a cesspit that can be cleared up (at least the coastal plains can.. when it comes to the jungle: either prepare well or stay out). Suriname like Indonesia can provide us with raw materials and tropical products and they can be helped with building up their own economies and societies. And.. another nice thing: a Dutchman would no longer need to travel to some far away island in the Pacific to find a tropical haven. He could go to Suriname where he can speak Dutch and (after some time) still find the comforts of home. Suriname like South Africa, the Antilles and Indonesia is what the Dutch call a verwantschapsland (a nation to which we have (cultural/historical) ties).



Suid Afrika: Yep, but you'd need the backing of other nations to take it, Britain, France and maybe America.
Yes. A military intervention should be carried out by a joint European force.



Indonesia: No chance. That's like Britain saying we're going to get America back :D :D :D The whole population is hostile to Euro/Dutch rule, and to be honest there is a lot of them and the Indonesian military isn't small.
Hmm we won't be conquering Indonesia. It would be better to offer them a good deal: Dutch businesses will invest massively in Indonesia and build it up, rooting out tropical diseases, cleaning up the place big time and in turn they only have to allow the King or Queen as their ceremonial head of state(not that they will see her very often) by joining the Commonwealth. Dutch Indonesians and Indo-Dutch will also invest en masse and return to the Islands. And Dutch could be given on schools as a primary foreign language while Dutch children can study Bahasa or Malay in school and be given the opportunity to study in let's say Batavia or Soerabaja before returning to the Netherlands whereas an Indonesian can do the same in let's say Delft or Leiden. The Netherlands could be made very popular there as the old generation is long buried and the Netherlands could be a partner state and a social-economic roll model.




Why? English is useful to them in that part of the world, America has lots of tourists with a lot of money (for the time being anyway :D :D )
But Dutch and Papiamento will be the language spoken. English could be used in the same manner as English is being used here: as a primary foreign language.
So my personal advise to any rich yanks that want to settle on those islands: get out of your villa, sign up for an integration course and start learning Dutch and Papiamento.

[Albion]

It's alright. Just when the Euro's retake it: stay out.

OK, our government and country can since they're the morons who messed up last time, but I take it English and Scots will be welcome in Rhodesia?


We have over a quarter of a million Surinamese here.. effectively more then those that life there. It's a cesspit that can be cleared up (at least the coastal plains can.. when it comes to the jungle: either prepare well or stay out).

You can clear the plains but it'll still be a sticky, icky sweat box.


Suriname like Indonesia can provide us with raw materials and tropical products and they can be helped with building up their own economies and societies.

Yeah, that's true. I guess uninhabited areas of it could be settled with Dutch so that the Netherlands would actually have a reason other than "for the resources" to explain to the UN and the rest of the world why it would incorporate it into the rest of the Netherlands.
The parts of Suriname inhabited by non-Dutch could stay as a separate colony.


a Dutchman would no longer need to travel to some far away island in the Pacific to find a tropical haven

Yes, sorry to burst your bubble but you already have the Dutch Antilles. We have Bermuda, Cayman Islands and Pitcairn Island, but its still more practical for most English / Brits to travel to the Med.
It'd be nice as a settler colony, but I'd partition it between European areas and Surinamese areas, I don't think it'd work out as a major tourist destination though.


It would be better to offer them a good deal: Dutch businesses will invest massively in Indonesia and build it up, rooting out tropical diseases, cleaning up the place big time and in turn they only have to allow the King or Queen as their ceremonial head of state(not that they will see her very often) by joining the Commonwealth

I wouldn't bother, you'd just be creating another China, another competitor to Europe and the West. They wouldn't be eternally grateful, they'd make their money and go it alone, challenging the west.


So my personal advise to any rich yanks that want to settle on those islands: get out of your villa, sign up for an integration course and start learning Dutch and Papiamento.

Hahaha, yes good point.

I'd like to re-settle western Australia, not by invading Australia or anything, by working with the Aussie government. They could fill up a empty patch of their massive country and the UK could lose a lot of excess population.

[Groenewolf]

We have over a quarter of a million Surinamese here.. effectively more then those that life there. It's a cesspit that can be cleared up (at least the coastal plains can.. when it comes to the jungle: either prepare well or stay out). Suriname like Indonesia can provide us with raw materials and tropical products and they can be helped with building up their own economies and societies. And.. another nice thing: a Dutchman would no longer need to travel to some far away island in the Pacific to find a tropical haven. He could go to Suriname where he can speak Dutch and (after some time) still find the comforts of home. Suriname like South Africa, the Antilles and Indonesia is what the Dutch call a verwantschapsland (a nation to which we have (cultural/historical) ties).


Of course we could use to build up a space center, like France has in their South-American part of the world. Doing our own semi-independent space-program would probably by a bit of a overstretch. But we could offer it to other space agencies for a nice sum of money and of course participation.

[The Lawspeaker]

Of course we could use to build up a space center, like France has in their South-American part of the world. Doing our own semi-independent space-program would probably by a bit of a overstretch. But we could offer it to other space agencies for a nice sum of money and of course participation.
Exactly. It would be a nice station for a Dutch (plus Commonwealth - think about the South Africans) space program and the E.S.A. And we could also use a place somewhere for nuclear testing in case the Netherlands and the Commonwealth would see the need to join the Nuclear Club.:thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

OK, our government and country can since they're the morons who messed up last time, but I take it English and Scots will be welcome in Rhodesia?
Of course. Rhodesia would be (for the time being) part of the British Commonwealth whereas South Africa would be Dutch. They could also settle in South Africa if they are British South Africans.





You can clear the plains but it'll still be a sticky, icky sweat box.
Good point. It will need a special breed of people. But then again most Dutch that would go to the colonies would then go to South Africa anyways.





Yeah, that's true. I guess uninhabited areas of it could be settled with Dutch so that the Netherlands would actually have a reason other than "for the resources" to explain to the UN and the rest of the world why it would incorporate it into the rest of the Netherlands.
It won't be incorperated but the country will be as independent as they were before 1975 - it will basically be a restauration of the 1954-1975 situation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_for_the_Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands) with it's own elected government and a governor to represent H.M The Queen. This government will be elected by the citizens of Suriname.

Basically if you look at it from the form of a passport: it would have the Surinamese coat of arms with a crown (the crown representing the Netherlands) and the words "Koninkrijk Suriname- Kingdom of Suriname" (and maybe in the local language "Sranan" as well (It would be something like "Sranan Kownukondre" - I looked it up in a dictionary.)



The parts of Suriname inhabited by non-Dutch could stay as a separate colony.
No partition will take place. We are not going to rip up their country but we are going to build it into a country. Dutch that will go there should just receive the full assistance from Dutch and Surinamese authorities.





Yes, sorry to burst your bubble but you already have the Dutch Antilles. We have Bermuda, Cayman Islands and Pitcairn Island, but its still more practical for most English / Brits to travel to the Med.
Good point but with the increasing wealth more people would be able to travel to the colonies and since it would be a part of the Kingdom travelling there could be slightly cheaper then going abroad. Also: it would be easy for a Dutchman then to decide to not to stick around here in the cold Netherlands when he has to study instead study in the colonies. Hell: the same could go for military postings (mainly the Navy) and jungle training.



It'd be nice as a settler colony, but I'd partition it between European areas and Surinamese areas, I don't think it'd work out as a major tourist destination though.
No partitions. It one would simply build it up it would become much more liveable for both European settlers/tourists/students and for the locals themselves.

XiuDVEiBMI8
This for instance is Indonesia in 1941. I am sure you know what it looks like today. :wink



I wouldn't bother, you'd just be creating another China, another competitor to Europe and the West. They wouldn't be eternally grateful, they'd make their money and go it alone, challenging the west.
You never know. Indonesians are not exactly the biggest friends of the Chinese and Japanese so it might come in handy one day. And.. since we would let them evolve to a similar kind of economy that we have found we face a competitor that is in some cases very similar to us.. and it would keep us sharp. :wink




Hahaha, yes good point.

I'd like to re-settle western Australia, not by invading Australia or anything, by working with the Aussie government. They could fill up a empty patch of their massive country and the UK could lose a lot of excess population.
Well.. It would be a good idea for the Dutch to spread out and the majority of Dutch immigrants should go to South Africa with other people then going to the West and East Indies (and abroad). They will not "take over lands" but just settle in neighborhoods or in new villages and on the countryside to lead development projects and generate jobs and assist the local administration.

Whereas the locals should be helped to learn Dutch the Dutch there should learn the local languages and local customs - creating a fusion between the culture of the colonies and the culture of the Netherlands and the ones going to the Indies would mainly be the ones with connection there anyways: Indo-Europeans, grandchildren of the Indies diaspora and immigrants from those areas. It would be wise for other Dutch to stay in seperate neighborhoods until the colonies have reached a similar level of personal wealth and civilization as the Netherlands has.

So in that way- we get rid of a lot of excess population and a lot of those leaving for the Indies have Indies' heritage anyways.

[Albion]

Of course. Rhodesia would be (for the time being) part of the British Commonwealth whereas South Africa would be Dutch. They could also settle in South Africa if they are British South Africans.

Yes, that makes sense and then eventually Rhodesia once developed could become a independent nation modelled on NZ or Australia.


Good point. It will need a special breed of people. But then again most Dutch that would go to the colonies would then go to South Africa anyways

It would appeal to the "adventurous" sort or the sort of people who have next to nothing in Europe, that's how Canada and America were founded.
There's a lot of opportunity that could be had, people could start mining and resource companies who set up farms to supply the Netherlands with food.
I guess such a scheme could be implemented in Guyana too under British rule.


It won't be incorperated but the country will be as independent as they were before 1975 - it will basically be a restauration of the 1954-1975 situation with it's own elected government and a governor to represent H.M The Queen. This government will be elected by the citizens of Suriname.


Well that's what the British do, the government here lets the territories rule themselves, but it seems unless such territories are incorporated into the nation fully and represented in the parliament like the rest of the nation then they deemed to be "colonies" and the UN get on your case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_list_of_Non-Self-Governing_Territories (aka "the colonies list") (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_list_of_Non-Self-Governing_Territories)


No partition will take place. We are not going to rip up their country but we are going to build it into a country. Dutch that will go there should just receive the full assistance from Dutch and Surinamese authorities.

But what about multiculturalism? Wouldn't it be a multicultural mess with the Dutch sharing a country with the Surinamese?


No partitions.

Awww.... So what do you propose to do, swamp the Surinamese population or outbreed them? :D :D :D Good luck.


It one would simply build it up it would become much more liveable for both European settlers/tourists/students and for the locals themselves.

Sounds nice.


This for instance is Indonesia in 1941. I am sure you know what it looks like today.

Yes, I do, a militaristic banana republic.


You never know. Indonesians are not exactly the biggest friends of the Chinese and Japanese so it might come in handy one day. And.. since we would let them evolve to a similar kind of economy that we have found we face a competitor that is in some cases very similar to us.. and it would keep us sharp.

They don't have to like China or Japan to be a competitor, but the Netherlands could never compete with a developed country with vast amounts of resources and such a huge labour force as Indonesia's could be.
Keeping sharp is one thing, clambering for economic survival is another.


Well.. It would be a good idea for the Dutch to spread out and the majority of Dutch immigrants should go to South Africa with other people then going to the West and East Indies (and abroad). They will not "take over lands" but just settle in neighborhoods or in new villages and on the countryside to lead development projects and generate jobs and assist the local administration.

Wait, didn't you say South Africa would be white / boer again? It sounds like here that we'd "take civilization" to them as the old colonialists would say (sorry, I couldn't think of better words :D :D :D), but that's the gist of it - you'd be giving them everything on a silver platter.


Whereas the locals should be helped to learn Dutch the Dutch there should learn the local languages and local customs - creating a fusion between the culture of the colonies and the culture of the Netherlands

That happened in Paraguay (Spaniards+Guarani, latter Italians+Guarano-Spaniards), some people would see that as a positive example, others as a negative. Paraguay did well until Brazil, Argentina and Bolivia flattened it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_triple_alliance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gran_Chaco_War


the ones going to the Indies would mainly be the ones with connection there anyways: Indo-Europeans, grandchildren of the Indies diaspora and immigrants from those areas. It would be wise for other Dutch to stay in seperate neighborhoods until the colonies have reached a similar level of personal wealth and civilization as the Netherlands has.

Good idea.


So in that way- we get rid of a lot of excess population and a lot of those leaving for the Indies have Indies' heritage anyways.

Ah, got it. So you get rid of the non-Europeans from mainland Netherlands whilst at the same time gaining resources, good plan, mines a bit different though:

Plan for the British:

1) Convince Australia to let us dump our excess population in Western Australia + Queensland.

2) Bribe Papuan officials into signing away the sovereignty of PNG, make PNG a part of Australia in the same sort of relationship Greenland has to Denmark.

3) Build massive dams in PNG - build the world's biggest pipeline carrying water from PNG across the Torres straight all the way down to Sydney, NSW and maybe as far as Victoria - use cheap Indonesian labourers to keep costs down. This would effectively irrigate much of Eastern Australia allowing the dusty continent to actually support a decent amount of people for a continent that size.

4) Develop PNG whilst ensuring the traditional society remains the same. Develop essentials such as roads, good governance, food for all, clean water and housing in the few towns and cities.
PNG would have a generous social welfare system funded by the water pipeline - the Aussies and newly settled Brits would pay PNG for the water.

5) Storm Zimbabwe, maybe get help from France or Netherlands. Depose that idiot Mugabe, partition the country into Rhodesia for the whites and Zimbabwe for the blacks - to separate countries. Zimbabwe could be a republic and could go it alone, Rhodesia would be in the commonwealth.

6) Agree with Chile the boundaries between British and Chilean Antarctica, ignore Argentina. :D:D Settle the peninsulars and islands of British Antarctica under small domed towns and cities, mine for resources and minerals, fill in abandoned mines with CO2 brought in from coal-fired power stations and other heavy polluters (the CO2 would be trapped, shipped and then stored securely).

7) Abandon Aktiori and Dhekelia, give them to Greek Cyprus.

8) Give Gibraltar independence, but militarily protect it.

9) Bribe Guyanan officials into handing over sovereignty to Britain, partition Guyana into two countries - Guyana (along the coast) and British Guiana (with a small area of coast).
British Guiana would be where we'd get resources from, it'd be settled with Brits and incorporated into England as a county (take that UN decolonization comity :D ).
Develop Guyana and give it independence.

OK, now everyone knows I'm a evil colonialist :D :D :D :D

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, that makes sense and then eventually Rhodesia once developed could become a independent nation modelled on NZ or Australia.
Or join (then former Dutch) South Africa in a new independent Union. :) We could make sure that the legal systems, the education systems and the economies of South Africa and Rhodesia are already so much like each other that independence and reunification won't cause trouble.




It would appeal to the "adventurous" sort or the sort of people who have next to nothing in Europe, that's how Canada and America were founded.
There's a lot of opportunity that could be had, people could start mining and resource companies who set up farms to supply the Netherlands with food.
I guess such a scheme could be implemented in Guyana too under British rule.
Knowing myself (I love my country a lot but sitting here doing nothing because this country is too small for us and our ideas while there is a world outside is not so attractive to me) I would pick up and try my luck in the colonies. :thumb001:
And I am sure that there are lots of people that think the same way. Back in the good old days they had somewhere to go.. now we just sit here moping around on a forum. :wink
And it could also work for farmers that can't find enough land here. There are vast tracks of arable land over there (mainly in South Africa and Suriname) that are ready to be prepared for use.




Well that's what the British do, the government here lets the territories rule themselves, but it seems unless such territories are incorporated into the nation fully and represented in the parliament like the rest of the nation then they deemed to be "colonies" and the UN get on your case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_list_of_Non-Self-Governing_Territories (aka "the colonies list") (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_list_of_Non-Self-Governing_Territories)
What we could do is to give them the kind of independence (for the first 50 years) that Canada enjoyed when it was still a Dominion. After that it would be the modern British system with a constitutional monarchy and a lieutenant general ("gouverneur") in her absence. This administrative figure can be an elected native as well as a elected Dutchman) and an elected parliament (Dutch style) and local elected provincial administrations and communal administrations. With only the Statute of the Kingdom and the monarchy (and maybe a pegged currency) tying them to the Netherlands.




But what about multiculturalism? Wouldn't it be a multicultural mess with the Dutch sharing a country with the Surinamese?
It depends on what Surinamese you're talking too. Marons could be a problem. Hindustani and Javanese are usually not. It could actually even be encouraged to mix into the population -mixing with the most intelligent, educated and gracile amogst them and produce a relatively sizeable offspring (3 or 4 children a family ?) while maybe even offering sterilization to those natives with severe genetic conditions so the pace of interbreeding and out-breeding would go faster and then within some generations a mixed population could replace some of the more troublesome elements in society after which the country could become independent as it would be socially, economically politically and culturally and genetically viable. Race mixing ? Yes. But it's in the colonies and ties them to us should why bother: here we should have different standards though.

But perhaps it would be wise to make sure that large groups of Marons get educated and fused into a changing country and the rest maybe "repatriated" to West Africa..




Awww.... So what do you propose to do, swamp the Surinamese population or outbreed them? :D :D :D Good luck.
A dual approach. Both intermixing and outbreeding.:)




Sounds nice.
It would basically turn into a kind of tropical Netherlands over time with some distinct cultural, racial, historical and linguistic elements that sets them apart from us. Economically: not so as it would grow to the same wealth as we have and probably has an socio-economic system that mirrors our own (collective bargaining and progressive taxes and all). Unless you count out the native tribes that should be left alone anyways.:)




Yes, I do, a militaristic banana republic.
Exactly. And it should become a modern, friendly state with a functioning economy and democracy. That is as clean as table sheet on a washing line.




They don't have to like China or Japan to be a competitor, but the Netherlands could never compete with a developed country with vast amounts of resources and such a huge labour force as Indonesia's could be.
Keeping sharp is one thing, clambering for economic survival is another.
By that time we could make sure that we have set different agreements with the Indonesians as they would be part of the Commonwealth anyways. It's not like Australia and Canada are competitors for Britain.




Wait, didn't you say South Africa would be white / boer again? It sounds like here that we'd "take civilization" to them as the old colonialists would say (sorry, I couldn't think of better words :D :D :D), but that's the gist of it - you'd be giving them everything on a silver platter.
Yes. But Afrikaners and Dutch are next of kin so a couple of million Dutch living amongst them and slowly breeding themselves into the Afrikaner bloodline in a time of an Afrikaner surge in the population would not harm them.. maybe even strengthen them. But South Africa would have to be rebuild and that's where Dutch immigrants can help them as reaching 40 million Afrikaners will take time.




That happened in Paraguay (Spaniards+Guarani, latter Italians+Guarano-Spaniards), some people would see that as a positive example, others as a negative. Paraguay did well until Brazil, Argentina and Bolivia flattened it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_triple_alliance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gran_Chaco_War
There will be no one flattening Indonesia as the Japs have learned their lesson and the Chinese are not so aggressive. So it could work pretty well. :) It could lead to a strengthening of both the European race and the non-European races and to a spread of our language, genes and culture.




Good idea.
We should always be prudent until it is no longer needed. :)




Ah, got it. So you get rid of the non-Europeans from mainland Netherlands whilst at the same time gaining resources, good plan
Exactly. And there are people with Dutch blood amongst them too (mixed origins) and Dutch that married colonials or people of colonial descent and people with an entrepreunerial and adventerous spirit. In that way we get the best of both worlds: we do ourselves, those people, and the colonies a real favour.
Now that is development aid in a true sense.

[Albion]

Yes. But Afrikaners and Dutch are next of kin so a couple of million Dutch living amongst them and slowly breeding themselves into the Afrikaner bloodline in a time of an Afrikaner surge in the population would not harm them.. maybe even strengthen them. But South Africa would have to be rebuild and that's where Dutch immigrants can help them as reaching 40 million Afrikaners will take time.

Yes, Dutch and Afrikaans are basically the same culture and people, much like Aussies and Kiwis, I thought you meant the Dutch would live side-by-side with black Africans.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, Dutch and Afrikaans are basically the same culture and people, much like Aussies and Kiwis, I thought you meant the Dutch would live side-by-side with black Africans.
HELL no. They don't even belong there in the first place. No I meant Afrikaners. :)

[Albion]

HELL no. They don't even belong there in the first place. No I meant Afrikaners. :)


Hahaha, true. When the Dutch settled the Cape the Black Africans were just starting to reach South Africa, pretty pathetic really when you consider all they had to do is walk, the Dutch sailed there! :D:D:D:D

[RoyBatty]

Always "England", never "Britain" when something bad happens:rolleyes2::rolleyes2: No, "England" (Britain) shouldn't.


Yep, thanks for clarifying this. It isn't quite fair or accurate to equate "England" with the UK.



To clarify what I said earlier, such a republic for the "Boers" or Afrikaans in South Africa would be a separate sovereign nation apart from South Africa, who would create it and how I don't know, unlike Zimbabwe South Africa would be pretty hard to take.


The "Boers" or Afrikaners were screwed the minute valuable resources were discovered on Boer territory. The British Imperialists naturally had to get their paws on it and remove the Boers from the equation.

For the same reasons the UK and USA attacked Iraq, the UK and USA overthrew the democratic government of Iran in the 1950's, the UK and France launched a war against Egypt, the UK pushed opium on the Chinese etc etc etc. It's business. It always was business. It will always be about business.

Business aka "Free Trade" is all about rigging trade to be in favour of the Imperialist powers and to extract unequal concessions from the willing or unwilling "trading partners". When these "trading partners" start "hindering" trade and "progress", they are usually demonised in the media of the traders first after which they are unceremoniously assaulted and deposed by Imperial Stormtroopers. After this phase a compliant dictator is typically installed and business as usual resumes. Wall Street and The City of London breath easily again. Porsches disappear off showroom floors. Life is peachy.

All the "freedom", "human rights" and "democracy" talk is the fluffy feelgood nonsense they use to sell the package to the gullible general public.

As for "taking" South Africa or Zimbabwe, imo the South African military capabilities have deteriorated to junk status. It's not even a shadow of what it was during the Apartheid era. I think Zimbabwe might be a tougher nut to crack militarily than current day SA would be.

[Austin]

Though resources are a factor in conflict, I'm more apt to believe in tribal differences as a cause of conflict, both artificially created and by blood.



Really? Did you forget that it's a massive, diverse continent? The Abyssinian empire (the only one to resist the great 'scramble' for land) lasted almost 3,000 years. The Mali empire had texts on mathematics and astronomy. The Egyptian empire, arguably also African, contributed many inventions to scientific fields. I don't dispute some European influence in these empires, however, I think that you are missing out on a large portion of human history.

We need to stop referring to Africa as one large continent and Africans as one people, because they clearly aren't.


Nothing worthwhile came out of Africa from black Africans. Egypt and it's empire were certainly by no measure pure African and this is common knowledge. Black Africa did have culture and civilizations but they amounted to nothing in comparison with even halfhearted cultures elsewhere.


Also there are many who would and do to this day argue that Egypt is not culturally/socially/geographically a part of Africa in the utmost sense and to this I largely agree, Egypt did not follow the same pattern as the rest of Africa and this is undeniable.

Why stand up for black Africans Susi?


Black Africa, the parts most consider black Africa, is one large continent with one mass of black people who still die in mass to a mere sexual disease and still mass rape each other.

There are no mass rapes in Egypt. To claim Egypt is a part of black Africa and its problems is ignorance.

[Albion]

Nothing worthwhile came out of Africa from black Africans. Egypt and it's empire were certainly by no measure pure African and this is common knowledge. Black Africa did have culture and civilizations but they amounted to nothing in comparison with even halfhearted cultures elsewhere.
Also there are many who would and do to this day argue that Egypt is not culturally/socially/geographically a part of Africa in the utmost sense and to this I largely agree, Egypt did not follow the same pattern as the rest of Africa and this is undeniable.
Why stand up for black Africans Susi?
Yes, most of The African empires south of the Sahara were started by Arabs who had travelled by sea or the trade routes.
The whole of North Africa north of the Sahara is traditionally Hamito-Semitic and always has been, genetically and racially North Africa has more in common with Europe than it does with sub-saharan Africa.

Abysinnia is nothing special by the way.

[Sahson]

Hahaha, yes good point.

I'd like to re-settle western Australia, not by invading Australia or anything, by working with the Aussie government. They could fill up a empty patch of their massive country and the UK could lose a lot of excess population.

I don't know why, it's not that nice. The people here have a different mentality to the British. The Western Australians have been trying to become indepedant on their own, because they are sick of the Eastern states taking their precious resources, and then raping them.

A few years ago there was talks about Australia becoming a republic and no longer accepting the Queen as their monarchy. To try and regain Australia would be extremely difficult, to migrate british people to here?

Well 33% of Perth's population is already British, my next door neighbours are scouse, Australian, and Somersets. However alot of the land is useless here, and in order for you to terraform the northern area's you're going to need alot of cash.

Australia being colonized again? for the resources it is good, intergrating the people would be near impossible.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

I just don't understand how Africa, after centuries of European and Arab colonization, are just pretty much handing the KY Jelly over to the Chinese. :coffee:
African governments are short of Western corruption money,the Chinese have plenty.
Here we have fokhead kaffir Zuma stating that the West should not degenerate China

[Albion]

I don't know why, it's not that nice. The people here have a different mentality to the British.

Yes, I know that but its not a vast difference like between say British and Chinese.


The Western Australians have been trying to become indepedant on their own,

I heard at the formation of Australia they applied to Westminister to become a separate country, so that movement is still active then?


because they are sick of the Eastern states taking their precious resources, and then raping them.

Yes, the remainder of Australia would be a lot less wealthy if Western Australia broke away, I know there's coal in NSW and some other resources in Queensland and Victoria, but is there really that much in the other states of Australia resource wise?


To try and regain Australia would be extremely difficult, to migrate british people to here?

No, I think you misunderstood me. Britain wouldn't try and regain Australia, it'd work in conjunction with the Aussie government to help settler more of the territory and to build up the population.
To support the extra population water would be piped from Papua New Guinea to the Eastern states, but most notably Queensland for irrigation and water supply.
Papua New Guinea is very wet and has ample places for building dams (apart from the savannah landscape in the extreme south). The Papuan economy would be supported by supplying Australia with water, Australia would be able to farm, settled and populate more areas and Australia would become even better than it already is.


Well 33% of Perth's population is already British,

Yes, isn't it about 25% in Victoria and Tasmania as well?


my next door neighbours are scouse, Australian, and Somersets. However alot of the land is useless here, and in order for you to terraform the northern area's you're going to need alot of cash.

True, but I still think a lot of it could be transformed through irrigation, however I doubt Western Australia could get water from PNG, but I think its plausible that Queensland could at least.
To improve the soils perrenial plants would be grown over vast areas, the plants wouldn't be harvested and would be allowed to form a "mulch" when they died, forming a thin layer of semi-decent soil. more crops could be grown on it, left to form a mulch and then eventually there'd be a decent band of soil to grow crops on.


Australia being colonized again?

Nope, Australia colonizing areas of its own territory.


for the resources it is good, intergrating the people would be near impossible.

How so? I know Brits and Aussies are different, but not that different. Besides, the territories being settled would be settled by Brits who'd eventually be assimilated - more workers, bigger labour force, more land to farm and no problems with other religions because only Brits and other Europeans would settle.

[Albion]

http://germania.zoomshare.com/files/irrigate_australia.bmp

Purple area: Area of water extraction

Blue area: Area of possible irrigation

Dark red lines: Pipelines carrying water from PNG

Light red lines: Probable maximum extent of water pipelines from PNG.

[Sahson]

Yes, I know that but its not a vast difference like between say British and Chinese.

In my case I grew up with chinese, and malays. I am able to fit well with asians. So forgive me. I can associate with Yorkshire comrades, but I don't generally fit in with yorkshires.



I heard at the formation of Australia they applied to Westminister to become a separate country, so that movement is still active then?

Something that tends to happen alot in this state is that, well for starters this state has different laws and systems to the other states, our education system here is completely different ot NSW, VIC, Sa, and QLD. I know WA has been trying to segregate since we became a federation, but it has never happened, I think the last time was in the 70's there's been about 4 trys.

Same goes with Daylight saving time here. we have had it proposed several times, and we even had a trial that was to go on for 3 years, but lasted 2. Other states mock WA as being stuck in the past, because of such things.

Still the mentality among WA'ers is that well they will buy WA products before any other state, we have symbols on our grocery products if they are made in WA. I work in produce section of a supermarket, and most people will buy WA bananas for $5.00 kg then the Queensland bananas at $3.49 kg because they apparently taste better.



Yes, the remainder of Australia would be a lot less wealthy if Western Australia broke away, I know there's coal in NSW and some other resources in Queensland and Victoria, but is there really that much in the other states of Australia resource wise?

WA is considerably wealthy, my dad's business thrives off natural resources, and WA was the ideal place. We have...


offshore diamond dredging(where they dredge the seabed for diamonds.
Diamonds in the north
Natural gas in the north
Oil reserves at the border of east timor.
Gold in Kalgoorie
Large Gold reserve in Boddington
Bauxite in the Darling ranges
Coal reserves
Bananas on Port Headland
Dairy byproducts are found near Capel, and Bunbury.
Lamb, Beef, chicken is local
we have orchard trees(macademias,etc), Lettuce, and other vegetables grown here.
Wineries in the south


WA has is the largest producer of diamonds in the world, and our gold resource is probably one of the largest in the world. Have you heard of the superpit?

http://www.useeus.com.au/media/blogs/photo/July08/endofwa/Kalgoolie%20Long%20view%20of%20the%20Super%20Pit.j pg

3.5 km long, 1.5 km wide, and 500 meters deep! If you click to see the full size you can see 400ton dumptruck(which my dad's company sells gear & repairs the tires) on the image to give you an idea of the size. There is apparently 8 mines down at the bottom of that pit.

Queensland has aluminium, bauxite, and uranium. NSW doesn't have that much, aluminium and bauxite, victoria has some resources, but not an awful lot. Like wise WA is the powerhouse.


Papua New Guinea is very wet and has ample places for building dams (apart from the savannah landscape in the extreme south). The Papuan economy would be supported by supplying Australia with water, Australia would be able to farm, settled and populate more areas and Australia would become even better than it already is.

Places like North Northern Territory, Queensland, and North WA are also extremely wet. Building pipelines up there is relatively pointless, its the southern inland that is a concern. NT dam levels never go below 55%.


True, but I still think a lot of it could be transformed through irrigation, however I doubt Western Australia could get water from PNG, but I think its plausible that Queensland could at least.
To improve the soils perrenial plants would be grown over vast areas, the plants wouldn't be harvested and would be allowed to form a "mulch" when they died, forming a thin layer of semi-decent soil. more crops could be grown on it, left to form a mulch and then eventually there'd be a decent band of soil to grow crops on.

Again Queensland is not much of an issue, barring the barren areas near Northern Territory. Cape York(the penisula) is a huge nature reserve(jungle), Cairns can get 800mm in a month during the summers.

West NSW has been a concern, but this year they've had the best rainfall in 10 years, and only 7% of land is considered drought area, compared to 18% last year.


How so? I know Brits and Aussies are different, but not that different. Besides, the territories being settled would be settled by Brits who'd eventually be assimilated - more workers, bigger labour force, more land to farm and no problems with other religions because only Brits and other Europeans would settle.

This may seem weird but the community in this city(mandurah) there seems to be a british community, and an australian community. There is a significant amount of British at the Mandurah City Soccer Club. Infact there's probably about less then a dozen australians. It seems that the Australians do their own thing...

After going to high school here for 3 years, none of my high school firends bother to talk, but when it comes to seeing a fellow person from the MCSC(even though I only turn up 3 times of the year) we're talking for nearly a full hour.

I know I'm having difficulty explaining it, but it seems that australians stick to their kind, asians do the same, arabs at university do the same, and very well to. My IT unit had 20 arabs, and an Arab teacher, arabic was spoken quite alot.


http://germania.zoomshare.com/files/irrigate_australia.bmp

Purple area: Area of water extraction

Blue area: Area of possible irrigation

Dark red lines: Pipelines carrying water from PNG

Light red lines: Probable maximum extent of water pipelines from PNG.

Just to inform you in 2004 there was talks building a multi-billion dollar pipeline from broome to perth to supply water. Instead the government built desalinization plants in the Perth Metro. Perth receives around 750mm a rain a year.

Mandurah receives around 880mm a year, and places down south can get up to 1000mm, but they are sparsely populated. Our main issue is generally rain in the summer, we get barely anything, while, broome, Kalumburu, Derby, etc. get nearly 1/3 of their entire rainfall...

As I've said Darwin, and Cairns are fine. Queensland is one of the wettest states, with anywhere along the coast receiving 2000+mm the wettest place in Australia is Mt. Bellenden Ker, near Tully in northern Queensland, it holds the record with 12,461mm of rainfall in a year .

So you could distinguish Australia either being Tropical, or Temperate. Sometimes the cyclones that occur in spring in WA, generally tend to affect Perth metropolitan area.

Apparently I live just 20 minutes away from the wettest place in WA. Furnissdale (http://maps.bonzle.com/c/a?a=p&p=727&d=w&wetgr=r&cmd=sp&st=5). Though up north, Kalumburu, and wyndham have received over 2400mm rainfall in the past 24 months.

But yes Australia could do with adopting more irrigation plans, and desalinisation plants.

If everything goes to shit in england mate, perhaps we could get together among other people on Apricity and set up a micronation, just like this chap, who founded the Principality of Hutt River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River), here's their main website - clicky (http://www.principality-hutt-river.com/)

I personally think PNG would be more ideal, with some highland, that way we could grow some great coffee, and sell overpriced water like Fiji. :wink I think we could all happy agree to this, on the provisor, my flag is recognized as the national flag.

http://planet.langwiki.info/images/thumb/0/0e/Flag_of_Vercia.png/800px-Flag_of_Vercia.png

What you think?

[Albion]

In my case I grew up with chinese, and malays. I am able to fit well with asians. So forgive me. I can associate with Yorkshire comrades, but I don't generally fit in with yorkshires.

Yes, I guess that's to be expected. So how exactly did you grow up with Chinese and Malays, did you come from Singapore or is there a lot in your town?


Same goes with Daylight saving time here. we have had it proposed several times, and we even had a trial that was to go on for 3 years, but lasted 2. Other states mock WA as being stuck in the past, because of such things.

I think daylight savings are a waste of time, here in the UK they're on about standardising our time with that of Western Europe by making daylight savings apply for the whole year or something.


Still the mentality among WA'ers is that well they will buy WA products before any other state, we have symbols on our grocery products if they are made in WA. I work in produce section of a supermarket, and most people will buy WA bananas for $5.00 kg then the Queensland bananas at $3.49 kg because they apparently taste better.

That's a good mentality. Its like that with Scots and English here, they'll buy English cheeses and Scottish biscuits in a semi-nationalistic way :D:D:D:D Shame though that most English produce has the Union jack on when Scottish produce gets the Scottish saltire.
Check this out (http://www.fairflags.org.uk/blog/)


WA is considerably wealthy, my dad's business thrives off natural resources, and WA was the ideal place. We have...

That's good. The UK has a few natural resources but not really valuable one's so most aren't worth extracting on large scales anymore. The only one's of much value really are oil and gas with Scotland having about 70% of the oil and England having about 60-70% of the gas (we would have the one that's worth a lot less :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:)
Also its hard to extract resources here too because you always get people moaning about mines spoiling the views and everything, but there's an old silica sand open-cast mine in my town and it got turned into a lake and parkland and donated to the town once it was exhausted.



offshore diamond dredging(where they dredge the seabed for diamonds.
Diamonds in the north
Natural gas in the north
Oil reserves at the border of east timor.
Gold in Kalgoorie
Large Gold reserve in Boddington
Bauxite in the Darling ranges
Coal reserves
Bananas on Port Headland
Dairy byproducts are found near Capel, and Bunbury.
Lamb, Beef, chicken is local
we have orchard trees(macademias,etc), Lettuce, and other vegetables grown here.
Wineries in the south


God, talk about the "lucky country" :D:D:D:thumb001:


WA has is the largest producer of diamonds in the world, and our gold resource is probably one of the largest in the world. Have you heard of the superpit?

Yes, I've heard of it. I doubt the demand for WA's resources will dry up anytime soon.


Places like North Northern Territory, Queensland, and North WA are also extremely wet. Building pipelines up there is relatively pointless, its the southern inland that is a concern. NT dam levels never go below 55%.


Yes but the water in Queensland and NT could be used to irrigate NSW, WA and maybe SA with the Queensland and NT water supplies replenished by PNG.


West NSW has been a concern, but this year they've had the best rainfall in 10 years, and only 7% of land is considered drought area, compared to 18% last year.

Yes, I read a piece in National Geographic about farmers being displaced and losing everything because the Murray-Darling basin was going bone dry (it was a few years ago I read it).


This may seem weird but the community in this city(mandurah) there seems to be a british community, and an australian community. There is a significant amount of British at the Mandurah City Soccer Club. Infact there's probably about less then a dozen australians. It seems that the Australians do their own thing...

Yeah, maybe there's a difference but I still think Europeans would be preferable over Africans (and East Asians preferable over them too).


I know I'm having difficulty explaining it, but it seems that australians stick to their kind, asians do the same, arabs at university do the same, and very well to. My IT unit had 20 arabs, and an Arab teacher, arabic was spoken quite alot.

Hmmm... well in the UK the Indians, Pakistanis and Poles live apart from the British, the Irish and Scots just seem to blend in with the English (they slag is off sometimes, but at the end of the day most English don't see any difference between us, just another accent of which Britain has many).


Just to inform you in 2004 there was talks building a multi-billion dollar pipeline from broome to perth to supply water. Instead the government built desalinization plants in the Perth Metro. Perth receives around 750mm a rain a year.

Desalination would probably be more practical for Perth than a pipeline going that far south and west from the north.


Mandurah receives around 880mm a year, and places down south can get up to 1000mm, but they are sparsely populated. Our main issue is generally rain in the summer, we get barely anything, while, broome, Kalumburu, Derby, etc. get nearly 1/3 of their entire rainfall...


But yes Australia could do with adopting more irrigation plans, and desalinisation plants.

Yes, its pretty weird in a way, the areas best for farming and settlement are in the South East (NSW and Victoria) meaning this is where most of the population will be, yet its a rather dry part of the country.


If everything goes to shit in england mate, perhaps we could get together among other people on Apricity and set up a micronation,

Another micronationalist? I thought I was the only one. :D:D:D:D I hate these "virtual micronations" which exist only on the internet, for me a micronation is a self-declare nation which actually has and controls territory, much like the unrecognised nations of the world.

Hutt river is a very good example, there's also "Sealand" in England which controls a sea fort (and thought off an invasion :D) and there was Minerva which has now been swallowed up by Tonga and the sea.


I personally think PNG would be more ideal, with some highland, that way we could grow some great coffee, and sell overpriced water like Fiji. :wink

Good place for it, PNG has next to no control over the highlands, one thing is though there's still cannibals in New Guinea's highlands so guns would be a must-have.
The tropical climate would probably even out into a more temperate-like micro-climate the higher up you got, all what would be needed would be to clear some jungle.
Yeah, if England becomes 3rd world due to the muslims or the debt then yeah, neo-colonialism it is.


I think we could all happy agree to this, on the provisor, my flag is recognized as the national flag.

http://planet.langwiki.info/images/thumb/0/0e/Flag_of_Vercia.png/800px-Flag_of_Vercia.png


What you think?

Very nice, I like Scandinavian crosses.

Yeah OK. Here my flag (I designed it a few weeks ago, I knew I'd need it some day:) )

http://germania.zoomshare.com/files/celtabria_s_flag.PNG

It bears no resemblance to the flags of St Helena, Kiribati and Niue whatsoever :D:D:D:D

I quite like the idea of settler-colonialism independent of a nation, that a group of free settlers could find some uninhabited land and set up a colony for themselves without having to hand control of the colony to a existing country (i.e. France, Britain or Australia), I think if colonialism ever makes a comeback then that'll be how its done in the future.

[Sahson]

Yes, I guess that's to be expected. So how exactly did you grow up with Chinese and Malays, did you come from Singapore or is there a lot in your town?

Lived in Malaysia for 11 years from age 3 to age 14. Malaysia has one of the top 15 most largest petroleum supplies. I'm sure you have hear of Petronas.



I think daylight savings are a waste of time, here in the UK they're on about standardising our time with that of Western Europe by making daylight savings apply for the whole year or something.

My sentiments are similar, however in our summer time, our sun can rise up at around 4.30am and set at 8.30pm(I think this is our longest day)


God, talk about the "lucky country" :D:D:D:thumb001:O

Yes, you can imagine why WA wanted to become independant, and why the other states would be screaming no. WA signed the treaty to become free from the british empire, only to end up stuck with the other states. New Zealand was offered to sign the same treaty but refused.


Yes, I read a piece in National Geographic about farmers being displaced and losing everything because the Murray-Darling basin was going bone dry (it was a few years ago I read it).

One of the most retarded projects in the Murray area has been occuring, destroying the ecosystem and drying up the river there. There are people there, I kid you not growing Australian rice! :eek: plus there are other factors that is ruining this basin...

SA is one of the driest states, and trying to find a tree is somewhat of a task, unless to go south-east SA.


Desalination would probably be more practical for Perth than a pipeline going that far south and west from the north.

Yes and we have a couple already, right now for the past 10 years WA has been having Solar power acts, where you pay to install solar power panels on your roof, and the government gives you back x amount.

What still ticks me off is Perth receives the most sunshine in year then any other metropolitan in Australia yet we are still burning coal for electricity. :mad:


Good place for it, PNG has next to no control over the highlands, one thing is though there's still cannibals in New Guinea's highlands so guns would be a must-have.
The tropical climate would probably even out into a more temperate-like micro-climate the higher up you got, all what would be needed would be to clear some jungle.
Yeah, if England becomes 3rd world due to the muslims or the debt then yeah, neo-colonialism it is.

Concrete electric fences like the ones in Jurassic Park to keep the cannibals in there place. Growing good coffee could be one of our industries, we need to make more industries for the lack of resources we would have. like probably manufacturing medical equipment, they always make money.


I quite like the idea of settler-colonialism independent of a nation, that a group of free settlers could find some uninhabited land and set up a colony for themselves without having to hand control of the colony to a existing country (i.e. France, Britain or Australia), I think if colonialism ever makes a comeback then that'll be how its done in the future.

The security with a large nation looking after the colonies, in both security, and economy is admirable. But policies that get in the way are annoying.

[Albion]

Lived in Malaysia for 11 years from age 3 to age 14. Malaysia has one of the top 15 most largest petroleum supplies. I'm sure you have hear of Petronas.

Yes, I've heard of Petronas, the big oil company that owns the Petronas towers.


My sentiments are similar, however in our summer time, our sun can rise up at around 4.30am and set at 8.30pm(I think this is our longest day)

Here at the height of summer I think its 5:30am till around 10:00pm, probably due to the latitude.


One of the most retarded projects in the Murray area has been occuring, destroying the ecosystem and drying up the river there. There are people there, I kid you not growing Australian rice! plus there are other factors that is ruining this basin...

Yes, I've heard of Australian rice, rice growing is very water-intensive, I think it'd be better suited to the more tropical / wet areas of Australia.


What still ticks me off is Perth receives the most sunshine in year then any other metropolitan in Australia yet we are still burning coal for electricity.

Yes, that must be annoying. In the UK there's a lot of potential for wind and tide power, but its not really being pushed enough.


Concrete electric fences like the ones in Jurassic Park to keep the cannibals in there place.

Lol, who'd it be keeping in? Because such an electric fence would have to encircle us. I'd just have walls around a town, I like your concept too.


Growing good coffee could be one of our industries, we need to make more industries for the lack of resources we would have. like probably manufacturing medical equipment, they always make money.

They're good ideas, perhaps tropical fruits could be grown also and interesting and unique flora could be sold to rich people and places like Kew gardens. I'm not sure about the resources, isn't PNG meant to be quite abundant in them?
One thing though, it sounds like you're forming a "standard country", in my head I had an idea for an isolationist one, a place which produces all its own things and exports just a few items and has less contact with the outside world.


The security with a large nation looking after the colonies, in both security, and economy is admirable. But policies that get in the way are annoying.

The world is against straight-out colonialism by modern day nations, idealists with ideas nobody likes have infested world governments. If somewhere became a colony of Australia or GB then there'd be outcry, the UN, US and do-gooders would be on their backs in no time. Besides, other countries would interfere.
I think if I ever started a micronation I'd procure old Soviet military equipment, you can buy this stuff, there's people who sell old Soviet tanks, armoured cars and lots of stuff like that.

[Susi]

Why stand up for black Africans Susi?

I'm not willing to write off an entire continent of people based solely on the fact that they're 'black Africans'. I don't know about you.


Black Africa, the parts most consider black Africa, is one large continent with one mass of black people who still die in mass to a mere sexual disease and still mass rape each other.

Kind of like how all Americans are fat, ignorant, uncultured hicks who spend their time dying of preventable chronic diseases? Africa is a huge continent. Your (ludicrous) claim is (partially) the case in some countries, but not others.

And if you really wanted to know, the rate of new infections of HIV/AIDS in parts of rural America is almost as high as some African countries (there's a report from CDC on this, soon to be released)...

http://*******/9z2fE2 this is WHO data. i selected some african countries and look, the prevalence (number of persons in a given population with a disease/condition) of HIV/AIDS is in general plateauing or in decline. So much for your theory... public health programs have been enacted in many of these countries... I don't say that things aren't bad there, but I thought we'd gone beyond simply labelling a continent as savages?


There are no mass rapes in Egypt. To claim Egypt is a part of black Africa and its problems is ignorance.

So now we're not talking about Africa as a whole but "black Africa"? What's it going to be then, eh?

[Albion]

Susi, why has Black Africa never had any real empires, countries or nations? Why were Native Americans under similar situations and climates able to build civilizations in some areas?
Why after the same colonization and repression have countries such as Vietnam and those of Latin America still done better than Africa? (I know Vietnam and Latin America aren't doing great, but still rather better than Black Africa).
There's got to be a reason, what is it then?

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Susi, why has Black Africa never had any real empires, countries or nations? Why were Native Americans under similar situations and climates able to build civilizations in some areas?
Why after the same colonization and repression have countries such as Vietnam and those of Latin America still done better than Africa? (I know Vietnam and Latin America aren't doing great, but still rather better than Black Africa).
There's got to be a reason, what is it then?

One should forget the Africa kaffir,95 percent are useless and 5 percent became slaves.
Look at Brazil,India,Iraq,Pakistan etc.
The darker you are the lower you are in the food chain or the nearer you are to a pariah status

[Korbis]

First of all, colonization of Africa was a huge mistake and should not never repeat again by any means.

The primeval negro lived very happy running from lions, crawling on mud and dancing nude around the fire until european men came to interrupt his idyllic existence, enslaved them and taught them to use complex devices in order to use it against their own masters in future revolts, once they were established in civilized nations and was just too late to send all of them back.

All the hard work made by slaves could have done by the europeans itselves if they had followed the protestant principles with flawless rigor. Catholics would manage to do the same one way or another. Our weakness, our fault.

Had caucasian and negro permanently stayed in their own native land the modern world would be a much better place.

[Osweo]

Fair points on the whole, Korbis (Bienvenido!), but this following is rather naive to me;

The primeval negro lived very happy running from lions, crawling on mud and dancing nude around the fire until european men came to interrupt his idyllic existence,
You should read on actual accounts of life in Black Africa, by the earlier explorers and missionaries. It was a pretty nasty dog-eat-dog oppressive sort of world even before we were heard of there, in many places...

[Korbis]

Fair points on the whole, Korbis (Bienvenido!), but this following is rather naive to me;

You should read on actual accounts of life in Black Africa, by the earlier explorers and missionaries. It was a pretty nasty dog-eat-dog oppressive sort of world even before we were heard of there, in many places...


- Gracias.

They seemed happy from an spiritual point of view living in that way. Who were us to judge them?

Maybe if we would left them alone they could have advanced by themselves and reach some sort of Iron Age. Who knows?

[Austin]

I'm not willing to write off an entire continent of people based solely on the fact that they're 'black Africans'. I don't know about you.



Kind of like how all Americans are fat, ignorant, uncultured hicks who spend their time dying of preventable chronic diseases? Africa is a huge continent. Your (ludicrous) claim is (partially) the case in some countries, but not others.

And if you really wanted to know, the rate of new infections of HIV/AIDS in parts of rural America is almost as high as some African countries (there's a report from CDC on this, soon to be released)...

http://*******/9z2fE2 this is WHO data. i selected some african countries and look, the prevalence (number of persons in a given population with a disease/condition) of HIV/AIDS is in general plateauing or in decline. So much for your theory... public health programs have been enacted in many of these countries... I don't say that things aren't bad there, but I thought we'd gone beyond simply labelling a continent as savages?



So now we're not talking about Africa as a whole but "black Africa"? What's it going to be then, eh?

All that crap you just said about AIDS in America....it is 95%+ in the BLACK community, something you Europeans are never told. Africa is a continent of savages. I have no intellectual/historical/moral qualms in firmly stating that nor would most people in the world behind closed doors.

[Matematik]

Africans seem to make themselves easy pickings. They're so caught up in blaming the whites and Arabs for all their problems that they're allowing the Chinese to come in and take their natural resources for the lowest price possible under the pretense they're their friends. China doesn't give a shit about anyone but China, when they can no longer see any economic interest in Africa they will dump them.

In many African countries China is building roads, it is quite obvious it is only to develop infrastructure so they can eventually ship the natural resources out of Africa and to China. It is very much colonialism.

[Matematik]

The primeval negro lived very happy running from lions, crawling on mud and dancing nude around the fire until european men came to interrupt his idyllic existence, enslaved them and taught them to use complex devices in order to use it against their own masters in future revolts, once they were established in civilized nations and was just too late to send all of them back.


Bullshit, Africa had always been a tribal, racist and genocial place hundreds of years before colonialism. African tribes seem largely to hate each other and bigger, bader tribes were always attacking smaller tribes, enslaving the men and raping the women.

These genocides you hear about in places such as Rwanda, Dafur and Congo are absolutely nothing to do with colonialism, these are feuds that stem back hundreds of years. You see, Africans don't view themselves all as "black brothers" in the same way we Westerners think they do. Different tribes view each other almost as completely different races.

[Eldritch]

First of all, colonization of Africa was a huge mistake and should not never repeat again by any means.

The primeval negro lived very happy running from lions, crawling on mud and dancing nude around the fire until european men came to interrupt his idyllic existence, enslaved them and taught them to use complex devices in order to use it against their own masters in future revolts, once they were established in civilized nations and was just too late to send all of them back.

All the hard work made by slaves could have done by the europeans itselves if they had followed the protestant principles with flawless rigor. Catholics would manage to do the same one way or another. Our weakness, our fault.

Had caucasian and negro permanently stayed in their own native land the modern world would be a much better place.

Colonising Africa was no mistake on the part of Europeans. Thinking it could be civilised as well colonised, was. ;)

Were you aware that the Arabs (whose heritage Afrocentric AfrAms are so desperate to appropiate for themselves) had black African slaves too? Only they rendered them infertile, which explains the lack of African minorities and racial admixture in the Middle East.

[Korbis]

Bullshit, Africa had always been a tribal, racist and genocial place hundreds of years before colonialism. African tribes seem largely to hate each other and bigger, bader tribes were always attacking smaller tribes, enslaving the men and raping the women.

These genocides you hear about in places such as Rwanda, Dafur and Congo are absolutely nothing to do with colonialism, these are feuds that stem back hundreds of years. You see, Africans don't view themselves all as "black brothers" in the same way we Westerners think they do. Different tribes view each other almost as completely different races.


I never said savagery and cruelty was alien to the nature of the negro. Its their natural state indeed, and try to teach them to behave like us was the fatal mistake we are still paying for. Not to mention brought them to northern continents.

Colonialism was in the long term highly detrimental to us and beneficial to them.

[Korbis]

Were you aware that the Arabs (whose heritage Afrocentric AfrAms are so desperate to appropiate for themselves) had black African slaves too? Only they rendered them infertile, which explains the lack of African minorities and racial admixture in the Middle East.


Yes i know Ottoman Empire started the slave trade way before Europeans, but that´s beside the point.


Lack of racial admixture?

Arabs had no qualms about breed with negroes, nowadays most of them are mongrels of caucasians and negroids. Originally, they were no different than other mediterraneans. It explains pretty well what happened in North Africa.

[ikki]

Colonising Africa was no mistake on the part of Europeans. Thinking it could be civilised as well colonised, was. ;)



Should have just cleaned it out after conquest, then settled as a 100% nordic land :p Irresponsible to leave all those cockroaches around.

[Eldritch]

Arabs had no qualms about breed with negroes, nowadays most of them are mongrels of caucasians and negroids. Originally, they were no different than other mediterraneans. It explains pretty well what happened in North Africa.

I was referring to the Middle East, not north Africa, though. Caucasoid-Negroid mongrel is a term I'd apply to someone like Somalis, for xample (Somalis don't think of think of themselves as "black").

And most Arabs having Negroid admixture? I'm no expert, I'll admit that, but I find a bit hard to believe.

[Korbis]

Somalis are negroids with little caucasian influence, but still groids no matter what they say. Not all black africans look the same, they have subraces after all.


And yes most habitants of the Arabian peninsula and other islamic mediterranean countries are descendants of caucasian/semitic/black mongrels, i mean the "Bin Laden" look. But in there, Turkey, Lebanon or Syria a minority of pure mediterraneans or even semites without negro admixture stands out greatly from the crowd.

[Curtis24]

As Chinese more and more colonize Africa, what we will see is natural selection on a continent-wide scale.

In 100 years or even 50 years, a majority of people living in Africa may be East Asian.

[Debaser11]

I'm not willing to write off an entire continent of people based solely on the fact that they're 'black Africans'. I don't know about you.

But you won't look at the evidence from the leads I sent you that suggests a 15-20 point IQ gap between Negros and Europeans? Don't you get tired of being an ideologue? Your belief in black Africans becoming the same as Europeans is tantamount to a religion. It's just blind faith. You have nothing to substantiate this belief.

And as others have said, it's disingenuous to conflate North Africa and black Africa. Should we conflate all Asians because they're on the same continent too? Also, the Mali and Egyptian Empires were not Negroid. So much for Negro achievement.


Kind of like how all Americans are fat, ignorant, uncultured hicks who spend their time dying of preventable chronic diseases? Africa is a huge continent. Your (ludicrous) claim is (partially) the case in some countries, but not others.

Name one sub-Saharan African country that is as nice as any European country. Even some of the poorer Asian countries that have faced recent Holocausts (like Cambodia) are less dysfunctional.


And if you really wanted to know, the rate of new infections of HIV/AIDS in parts of rural America is almost as high as some African countries (there's a report from CDC on this, soon to be released)...

This is complete garbage. Until I see evidence, I'll stick by what every mainstream media source says about AIDS. Blacks are the main carriers of the disease because they are more promiscuous on average. Why does admitting this simple fact bother you? And why does admitting black ineptitude bother you but not imagining white persecution? Are you that insecure where you have to go along with what the leftists want you to think about your own race being the great exploiter? I know admitting that whites are not devils and chastising blacks is not cool, but at least it's honest.


http://*******/9z2fE2 this is WHO data. i selected some african countries and look, the prevalence (number of persons in a given population with a disease/condition) of HIV/AIDS is in general plateauing or in decline.

Again, we're trying to invent points instead of getting to the heart of matters. They're still way above everyone else. Why? Because they do things like rape two year olds to try to cure their AIDS. (And yes, this is more common than people want to believe.) Do you not accept that the AIDS madness has to top out somewhere? I mean, even Ted Williams didn't bat over a .300 average EVERY year. The law of averages says something has got to give at some time. No rates are permanent. That doesn't mean the root cause of the trend you're looking at is gone. There's not necessarily a cause for celebration.

Detroit's murder rate may go down a bit this year relative to how bad it was last year. Is that in and of itself proof that blacks are becoming less violent? Nope. The urban murder rate for blacks was slightly higher in the 1980s in the U.S. Are blacks areas now safe to hang around? No. There are other issues. Blacks raped 36,000 white women in the U.S. in 2005. They raped a bit less the next year. Should we now act like blacks are no longer pathological because they raped slightly fewer white women in 2006? Demographic trends in age, population dispersal, the amount of law enforcement in a given area, the percentage of thugs actively serving prison sentences within a particular year would all affect crime rate reports within a calendar year. There are similar factors related to demographics that probably explain the modest drop you're all too happy to point out concerning the AIDS graph. Experience tells me it's Western aide and a demographic lull contributing.





So much for your theory... public health programs have been enacted in many of these countries...

Blacks don't have public health programs unless by "public health programs" you mean chastising the West to donate more volunteers and medicine.



I don't say that things aren't bad there, but I thought we'd gone beyond simply labelling a continent as savages?

Not every black is a savage. But why do you assume they are the same as whites or capable of what whites achieve on average? Most of them certainly haven't shown themselves to be. Again, you're the one lacking evidence for your claim. Not the dirty "racists."



So now we're not talking about Africa as a whole but "black Africa"? What's it going to be then, eh?

In my mind they're both dysfunctional. But the two regions should not be conflated. North Africa is significantly more competent because the people there average about ten points higher in IQ.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Somalis are negroids with little caucasian influence, but still groids no matter what they say. Not all black africans look the same, they have subraces after all.


And yes most habitants of the Arabian peninsula and other islamic mediterranean countries are descendants of caucasian/semitic/black mongrels, i mean the "Bin Laden" look. But in there, Turkey, Lebanon or Syria a minority of pure mediterraneans or even semites without negro admixture stands out greatly from the crowd.

Actually, Somalis along with Ethiopians are the most Europid-looking Africans.

[Albion]

But you won't look at the evidence from the leads I sent you that suggests a 15-20 point IQ gap between Negros and Europeans?

Yes, but the usual reply to that by the liberals is "IQ tests are racist / biased to European culture", its ridiculous really when all IQ tests do is test basic understanding of key concepts which are (or should be) universal to all humans. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Eldritch]

Yes, but the usual reply to that by the liberals is "IQ tests are racist / biased to European culture", its ridiculous really when all IQ tests do is test basic understanding of key concepts which are (or should be) universal to all humans. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

... and when east Asians oftentimes outperform whites in the same tests that supposedly are biased towards Europeans.

But then again liberals like to pick 'n' nix their sources.

[Albion]

... and when east Asians oftentimes outperform whites in the same tests that supposedly are biased towards Europeans.

But then again liberals like to pick 'n' nix their sources.

Yes, they'd say it was due to "western influences being greater in Asia", I've seen it all before. Check out the "Society and Culture" section on Yahoo Answers, its mad on there :D

[Debaser11]

Yes, but the usual reply to that by the liberals is "IQ tests are racist / biased to European culture", its ridiculous really when all IQ tests do is test basic understanding of key concepts which are (or should be) universal to all humans. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes. It measures something. Especially Raven's Matrices. Liberals want all these tests made that supposedly measure the hidden intelligence of their pet minorities yet no one can seem to make one where blacks score equally high (and they keep trying). And even if such an inherent hidden intelligence existed way down deep in the darker races that could be uncovered through some magic test, what's the point when it has no real world application anyways? If you want to be an engineer or a rocket scientist, you have to learn the white man's math. Sorry. That's the way it is. These crybabies who bitch about "Eurocentricity" might as well be saying that "reality is biased." It's like their parents never told them "life's not fair."

If reality were as subjective as apologetic relativists want everyone to think it is, why do people the world over all seem to gravitate toward technologically advanced, humane Western culture like flies on shit? I don't know anyone in my neighborhood crossing their fingers in hopes that they can live next to some "cultural enricher" and I don't hear about any American crossing their fingers that they'll get a job transfer to Kenya or India. We're doing fine. Others are not.

And how could white racists make a test that is "culturally biased" that at the same time shows consistent trends in East Asians regardless if they grew up in China, Japan, Korea, or the West? How could they show consistent trends among whites in the same manner regardless of socio-economic background? How could they show consistent trends among blacks regardless of what country they grew up in or what economic class they come from? How could they show consistent trends of marked differences in intelligence between Jews and Gypsies? Both are "outsiders" through the lens of a "Eurocentric." None of these liberal critics ever bother to explain how something like a puzzle (which is basically pure g) is "culturally biased." I'll bite on some verbal tests being a bit biased. But matrices? I guess logic is biased in a way. It (for whatever reason) gravitates towards whites and not blacks. But that's sort of what the tests are telling us in the first place now, isn't it?

These trends in results transcend class, geography and time and line up overwhelmingly by race. For a "culturally biased" test, that's an amazing achievement, I must say. The odds of those results lining up by race the way they constantly do and still being as culturally biased as liberals claim is practically a googolplex to one. Furthermore, these white racists also would have oddly enough designed a culturally biased test to favor Jews (who I would assume white racists hate) and East Asians (who they'd likely not be fans of either). I have never heard any of these white racists like Rushton and Jensen and Murray complaining about not being from the race that measures top dog (Ashkenazis). Yet, I'll hear Afrocentricists regularly talk about how such tests are biased (without explaining how), but then they'll even go as far as to flat out say that blacks are superior (again, without explaining on what grounds their claim rests).

[Crossbow]

The final proof will come when no white man is left, and the remaining people will be confronted with the task of maintaining an equal level in technique, education, organisation, and so on.
Most probably the whole system will collapse gradually, or within a short period. Some installations and devices will last a bit longer perhaps, but after the last breakdown no cure is available anymore.
Back to nature then...but blacks already blamed the white man for destroying the earth, and regard Europeans and Americans as a global epidemic.
It will be a great world where discrimination no longer exists:rolleyes:, and all non-whites will never have to face their own stupidity again.

[Debaser11]

I can foresee some crazy future where the remaining whites are begging to be let into Asian societies. But it's all pie in the sky.

[lei.talk]

and the remaining people will be confronted with the task
of maintaining an equal level in technique, education, organisation, and so on.
Most probably the whole system will collapse gradually (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3986),
or within a short period.

[Debaser11]

^Yes. Quite the little experimental microcosm. Bleak.

[Crossbow]

I can foresee some crazy future where the remaining whites are begging to be let into Asian societies. But it's all pie in the sky.

I read once (but unfortunately I cannot remember where or what is was), an article in which was suggested that even Asians, despite their indisputed intelligence cannot function without the constant technical innovation coming from the West. I don't know whether this is true or not, but the west provided them with all principles and information.

[Debaser11]

^I do believe Asians are a more creatively stagnant people (though I also think they are creative in their own way). I believe there is something special about the white man's nature and spirit that might be biological that makes the world more beautiful. I know it seems self-serving (because I'm white) and such words also seem hateful (towards nonwhites) but I don't think I'm anything special, if that helps. In fact, most whites aren't special. But there are a few at the top who really make things happen, in my opinion. And I do also think highly of many nonwhites. I just think collectively, those nonwhite elites are not the people I'd like with the big stick.

But in short, I think the concern you're expressing above is a valid one. China sat on gun powder for how long and never developed it?

*And if you could remember where you read that article, Crossbow, I would be interested to know. It's sort of reading just to reinforce my beliefs (so again, it's self-serving to a degree) but such a read would nonetheless be fascinating.

[Crossbow]

^I do believe Asians are a more creatively stagnant people (though I also think they are creative in their own way). I believe there is something special about the white man's nature and spirit that might be biological that makes the world more beautiful. I know it seems self-serving (because I'm white) and such words also seem hateful (towards nonwhites) but I don't think I'm anything special, if that helps. In fact, most whites aren't special. But there are a few at the top who really make things happen, in my opinion. And I do also think highly of many nonwhites. I just think collectively, those nonwhite elites are not the people I'd like with the big stick.

But in short, I think the concern you're expressing above is a valid one. China sat on gun powder for how long and never developed it?

*And if you could remember where you read that article, Crossbow, I would be interested to know. It's sort of reading just to reinforce my beliefs (so again, it's self-serving to a degree) but such a read would nonetheless be fascinating.

Yes, I'll try to find out where I met that article, which stated that Asians can't do without western stimulation in that field. Sometimes you read something valuable, and you just forget to write it down, or save it.:(

[Groenewolf]

I read once (but unfortunately I cannot remember where or what is was), an article in which was suggested that even Asians, despite their indisputed intelligence cannot function without the constant technical innovation coming from the West. I don't know whether this is true or not, but the west provided them with all principles and information.

From what I have heard they are indeed less creative or if it is as I think it is : We have a more explosive form of creativity. And can therefor make more potential greater leaps in advancement of technology and science. While in the East it goes at a slower phase which also stimulated by cultural factors that favor conformism.

However it is possible we will loose our edge thanks to a combination of dysgenenics and the many political taboos on certain research topics, that can be freely researched in the East.

[Inese]

If we are to survive the future then we have to change things. We have to dig in Africa until we reach the planet core. We have to become absolute rulers of Africa. This is only a simple case of Darwinism. If we don't do it, they will, and they'll triumph over us eventually.
:rolleyes: What do i want in Africa?? I dont leave the northern countrys and i dont like other climates and total foreign cultures! If you have no problem move to Africa and let Europe alone. Balkan wars or Somalia wars ---- no big difference

[poiuytrewq0987]

:rolleyes: What do i want in Africa?? I dont leave the northern countrys and i dont like other climates and total foreign cultures!

Did I say anything about you moving to Africa? I only created this thread to signify the importance of Africa in her natural resources it possesses. It is incomparable to what little natural resources Europe has.


If you have no problem move to Africa and let Europe alone. Balkan wars or Somalia wars ---- no big differenceThat's quite ignorant of you.

[RoyBatty]

... and when east Asians oftentimes outperform whites in the same tests that supposedly are biased towards Europeans.

But then again liberals like to pick 'n' nix their sources.

Imo the Orientals may be marginally more intelligent than whitey but for some reason or another they haven't been as "successful", at least not in terms of spreading influence and dominating the world.

Perhaps they lack some of the required primitive instincts such as aggression, psychotic tendencies, the calculating cold-bloodedness etc.....

In recent times the Japanese perhaps came closest to filling these criteria to compete with whitey but lost out due to lack of numbers and resources.

[Korbis]

Imo the Orientals may be marginally more intelligent than whitey but for some reason or another they haven't been as "successful", at least not in terms of spreading influence and dominating the world.

Perhaps they lack some of the required primitive instincts such as aggression, psychotic tendencies, the calculating cold-bloodedness etc.....

In recent times the Japanese perhaps came closest to filling these criteria to compete with whitey but lost out due to lack of numbers and resources.


They lack individualism and heterogeneity both genetic and mentally wise, being discipline and tendency to cohesion their strong points.

What made europeans powerful and great were their differences and diversity because of whom we were constanly competing against another ethnic groups in order to stand out for our own, thus improving again and again our ways and tools.

Asians on the other hand were pretty homogeneous and once they reached estability and the unification of their culture were more or less accomplished they fell in a stagnation and became apparently unable to progress to a true modernity.

[Debaser11]

Christianity has a big role. There is both a sense of the individual as well as the community within the Christian tradition. No Asian tradition has a Christian ideal that's as powerful as YOU are one of God's children and YOU are meant to fulfill something in his name for his glory. Very empowering for both the individual and the community at the same time. I wish atheists would at least appreciate that much.

The Chinaman Confucianism is a bunch of "don't rock the boat" jabber from what I've read (and I won't pretend to be well-read on Eastern philosophy). It's a sound philosophy but it doesn't foster "creative explosiveness" (to borrow a term from a previous poster) the way Christianity is capable of doing.

[Grumpy Cat]

Susi, why has Black Africa never had any real empires, countries or nations?

I just have to be devil's advocate here:

Mali Empire/Imperial Ghana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire)

Ashanti Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Ashanti)

Songhai Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire)

Nubia/Kush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia)

Aksumite Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum)

Abyssinian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyssinian_Empire)

Wolof Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolof_Empire)



African Empires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_empires)

States formed by Arabs and Boers are included as well, but many of them are also black.

[Osweo]

Christianity has a big role.

But Abyssinia has been Christian since forever....

[Grumpy Cat]

But Abyssinia has been Christian since forever....

But it was black.

[Debaser11]

I just have to be devil's advocate here:

Mali Empire/Imperial Ghana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire)

Ashanti Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Ashanti)

Songhai Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire)

Nubia/Kush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia)

Aksumite Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum)

Abyssinian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyssinian_Empire)

Wolof Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolof_Empire)



African Empires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_empires)

States formed by Arabs and Boers are included as well, but many of them are also black.

I know you're being "Devil's Advocate," but this is a combination of the soft bigotry of low expectations (when Japan looked like these "empires" they were considered barbarians (so were Europeans for that matter)) and attributing Islamic/Horn African influenced civilizations with Negroid ones, which didn't have much of anything.

[Grumpy Cat]

I know you're being "Devil's Advocate," but this is a combination of the soft bigotry of low expectations (when Japan looked like these "empires" they were considered barbarians (so were Europeans for that matter)) and attributing Islamic/Horn African influenced civilizations with Negroid ones, which didn't have much of anything.

Not all of them were Islamic.

The Kushites were before Christ (and before Islam) and the Ghana Empire predates Islam's arrival in the region but became Islamic later.

I have to admit, though, my knowledge of African history is pretty sparse, but I know they had empires.

[Osweo]

But it was black.

I edited the post, as I forgot to indicate that this was a reply to Debaser;s post. :p

(And from the Nile to the Red Sea is a rather different kettle of fish anyway)

[Debaser11]

Not all of them were Islamic.

The Kushites were before Christ (and before Islam) and the Ghana Empire predates Islam's arrival in the region but became Islamic later.

I have to admit, though, my knowledge of African history is pretty sparse, but I know they had empires.

Right. I should have phrased that whole post I made better, actually. But those are all the common ones people bring up to try to prove that blacks (Negros in particular) are just as capable as Eurasians. They were all basically near some sort of cultural crossroads between the heart of the Roman Empire and the Middle East. Clearly, none of those are proof that blacks are equal as none of them in any way surpassed the civilizations from which they borrowed so heavily from. When blacks start catching up to the first world like the Japs did, then I'll be convinced that they are closer to Eurasian intelligence. Until that day comes...

And I know I have already mentioned this, but people who often defend these civilizations will make fun of Celts and Visigoths for being "hairy savages" who were nothing next to the Chinese of the day. It's a bait and switch race deniers like to pull between whites, blacks, and Asians.

[Sahson]

Well it was nice knowing you guys...

China: from middle kingdom to Top! (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2010/09/137_73033.html)

[The Ripper]

Let's be civil and share the pie fair and square.

Finland claims Namibia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovambo_people :D

[Lulletje Rozewater]

As Chinese more and more colonize Africa, what we will see is natural selection on a continent-wide scale.

In 100 years or even 50 years, a majority of people living in Africa may be East Asian.
50 years later
http://i56.tinypic.com/2vcibk5.jpg

[Lulletje Rozewater]

I read once (but unfortunately I cannot remember where or what is was), an article in which was suggested that even Asians, despite their indisputed intelligence cannot function without the constant technical innovation coming from the West. I don't know whether this is true or not, but the west provided them with all principles and information.

Are you possibly referring to this paper?????????????????
http://www.weightlesswealth.com/downloads/061023%20McMaster-2007%20Andriessen%20and%20Van%20den%20Boom.pdf

[Curtis24]

Christianity has a big role. There is both a sense of the individual as well as the community within the Christian tradition. No Asian tradition has a Christian ideal that's as powerful as YOU are one of God's children and YOU are meant to fulfill something in his name for his glory. Very empowering for both the individual and the community at the same time. I wish atheists would at least appreciate that much.

The Chinaman Confucianism is a bunch of "don't rock the boat" jabber from what I've read (and I won't pretend to be well-read on Eastern philosophy). It's a sound philosophy but it doesn't foster "creative explosiveness" (to borrow a term from a previous poster) the way Christianity is capable of doing.

Christianity is focused on positive action, whereas Confucianism is focused on the avoidance of negative action. Which really, kind of highlights the differences between WEstern and East ASian societies.

Christianity: "Treat others as you yourself wish to be treated."
Confuscianism: 'Do not do what you don't wish to be done."


Related to the ethical principle of the Golden Rule, the Silver Rule is most commonly understood to be "Do not do to others as you would not have them do to you," or similar expressions. Some such expressions, found in philosophical and religious literature, are considered versions of the golden rule, and there is some controversy over whether the Golden Rule and Silver Rule should be considered different expressions of the same underlying idea, or whether they differ logically, ethically, or practically.

The Golden Rule promotes positive actions and deeds, whilst the Silver Rule prohibits negative ones. As such, the Silver Rule may avoid some criticisms of the Golden Rule, which could be interpreting as suggesting that one should do things to others which they don't want done to them, just because one wants them done to oneself. On the other hand, the Silver Rule can be criticized for being too easily satisfied, and hence insufficient to base morality on, if it never requires us to engage in acts of benevolence, assistance, but merely to refrain from acts of belligerence.

Some authors[who?] understand the Silver Rule to be the shorter principle "Do no harm". In this version, it is often attributed to the Hippocratic Oath, and used in medical discussions. However, it is not found in the Hippocratic Oath, but a similar statement was made by Hippocrates in his Epidemics, Bk. I, Sect. XI. One translation reads: "Declare the past, diagnose the present, foretell the future; practice these acts. As to diseases, make a habit of two things — to help, or at least to do no harm."

The shorter expression might be interpreted as a simplification of the longer one, however the latter preserves the parallelism with the Golden Rule.

The Silver Rule has been championed by Confucius, Gandhi and Martin Luther King alike as a way to compensate for the Golden Rule's shortcomings.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Rule

[Crossbow]

Are you possibly referring to this paper?????????????????
http://www.weightlesswealth.com/downloads/061023%20McMaster-2007%20Andriessen%20and%20Van%20den%20Boom.pdf

No, it wasn't:) but it treats the same problem, from a different angle.

[InvaderNat]

I'm not worried about China becoming the world's biggest super-power (or even a hyper-power), I'd rather have the Chinese 'policing' the world than the current 'liberal-democratic' bastards who control the USA.

I think fears of China taking over the world (militarily) are unfounded, China has never invaded anyone except for a very brief incursion into Vietnam and by proxy in Korea - both of whom neighbor China.
Even if they did colonize Africa they still would be able to defend it if WW3 broke-out, as Africa is much closer to Europe and easier to access for the United States. In addition the Africans would/will almost certainly reject Chinese colonization making permanent settlement just as difficult as it was for European settlers after the 1970's.

[Curtis24]

I also think fears of China are unfounded. Mostly because China's social cohesion is based purely on money, and once the money goes(as it will, because of China's ponzi-like banking scheme), the Chinese people will sell out to foreigners.

[Psychonaut]

China has never invaded anyone except for a very brief incursion into Vietnam and by proxy in Korea

The Tibetan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet), Mongolian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_mongolia), Hui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningxia), Uyghur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang), and Zhuang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangxi) peoples would probably disagree with your assessment.

[Osweo]

The Tibetan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet), Mongolian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_mongolia), Hui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningxia), Uyghur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang), and Zhuang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangxi) peoples would probably disagree with your assessment.

And they're the lucky ones. Who now remembers the Zhung? They spread from Tibet to Manchuria once, along the northern edges of the Han.

And precedent doesn't work when drastically new circumstances come into play. It probably came as a bit of a surprise when the Europeans starting sailing around conquering the known world too.