Anthropology of Italy - one of the most complex [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Foxy

08-20-2010, 08:34 PM

ITALIANS

It is often claimed that Italians, especially those from the South of the country, have substantial Middle Eastern and African admixture acquired during Roman times and the Moorish occupation. However, data from anthropology shows a prehistoric origin for the Mediterranean elements in Italy, and detects no Negroid influence there whatsoever. Genetic research confirms this, showing that both sub-Saharan and Arab-Berber admixture are negligible. The differences between Northern and Southern Italians have also been greatly exaggerated for political reasons.

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Anthropology
"Italy, one of the most clearly demarcated geographical units in Europe, is a country of considerable [sub]racial variability. Although the Mediterranean race is strongly represented in it, Italy belongs only partially to the Mediterranean world, for much of it is more typically Alpine racial territory. ... The primary racial impulse of the early Neolithic, however, is known. This was the immigration of small Mediterraneans in great numbers, coming largely if not entirely by sea; these first food-producers were followed by more competent navigators, Atlanto-Mediterraneans, who settled chiefly in the north and in the islands, and Dinarics from the eastern Mediterranean in search of metal. Some of the Dinarics penetrated the Alpine Valleys while others settled in the Po Valley and in central Italy. The movement of highly cultured peoples from the east into Italy continued into historic times, and included the settlement of the Etruscans in Tuscany, and of the Greeks in Sicily and in the southern end of the peninsula.

"...through her role as mistress of the world, Rome accumulated and assimilated a heterogeneous population. That this population was by no means purely or even predominantly Mediterranean is shown by the study of the skulls of Pompeians, victims of the eruption which turned their city from a metropolis into a museum. These crania, with a mean cranial index of 80, represent a population which had acquired a [sub]racial character of its own despite its mixed origin, and in which the Alpine element was the most important. ... A series of 100 modern crania from Bologna, with a mean cranial index of 83.5, is almost purely Alpo-Dinaric, with the latter element in a position of prominence. The Dinaric race is common in northern, but not southern Italy, and this distinction has been true since the Bronze Age.

"In other words, the southern Italians are a blend for the most part of Alpines and small Mediterraneans, while among the northern Italians the most important dolichocephalic strain is the Atlanto-Mediterranean. The association of relatively great blondism with brachycephaly merely indicates that both Alpines and Dinarics are characteristically mixed or intermediate in pigmentation. The few unaltered Nordics still found in northern Italy and in aristocratic families elsewhere are far outnumbered by Atlanto-Mediterraneans. ... The binding element which is common to all sections is the Alpine, which has reemerged from obscure beginnings through a superstructure composed of Dinaric, Nordic, and various kinds of Mediterranean accretions."
(Coon, 1939)

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Genetics

Combined data from two large mtDNA studies provides an estimate of non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Italians. The first study sampled 411 Italians from all over the country and found five South Asian M and East Asian D sequences (1.2%) and eight sub-Saharan African L sequences (1.9%). The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%). This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African), which is very low and typical for European populations, since Pliss et al. 2005, e.g., observed 1.8% Asian admixture in Poles and 1.2% African admixture in Germans.

(Plaza et al. 2003;
Romano et al. 2003)

* * *

Similar data from the Y-chromosome reveals Italians' even lower non-Caucasoid paternal admixture. Both studies obtained samples from all over the mainland and islands. No Asian DNA was detected anywhere, but a single sub-Saharan African E(xE3b) sequence was found in the first study's sample of 416 (0.2%), and six were observed in the second study's sample of 746 (0.8%). The total is therefore a minuscule 0.6%, which decreases to 0.4% if only Southern Italians are considered and 0% if only Sicilians are considered. Again, these are normal levels of admixture for European populations (e.g. Austrians were found to have 0.8% E(xE3b) by Brion et al. 2004).

(Semino et al. 2004;
Cruciani et al. 2004)

* * *

52 world populations, including three Italian samples, were typed for 993 autosomal polymorphisms and subjected to a clustering algorithm. In the resulting data (excerpted below), Orange, Blue and Pink represent Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid clusters, respectively. Other colors denote Austro-Melanesian and Native American clusters (omitted). Notice that the Italian, Sardinian and Tuscan samples show the same near-total membership (>98%) in the Caucasoid cluster as the Basque, French and Scottish (Orcadian) samples.

(Rosenberg et al. 2005)

* * *

Two subclades of North African Y-chromosome haplogroup E3b (labeled E-M81 and E-M78β) have been given an estimated age of ~5000 years, making them useful in detecting historical admixture from Berbers. These markers exist at combined frequencies of 1.5% in Northern Italians, 2.2% in Central Italians, 0% in Southern Italians, 1.4% in Sardinians and 1.4% in Sicilians. Additionally, North African mtDNA haplogroup U6 occurs at a rate of 0.6% in Sicilians and is absent everywhere else in Italy (Plaza et al. 2003). This suggests that gene flow from Carthaginian and Moorish colonists was minimal.

(Cruciani et al. 2004)

* * *

Another Y-chromosome marker that may have been spread to Europe by Phoenicians and Arabs is the subclade of haplogroup J labeled J*(xJ2) or Eu10. It originated in the southern part of the Fertile Crescent and is very common in Arabia and Palestine (Neolithic J2 or Eu9 is from the northern Fertile Crescent). Its frequencies are 0.9% in Northern Italy, 7.1% in Central Italy and 5.3% in Southern Italy (for a total of between 0.5% and 3.6% admixture). It's important to note that while Phoenician and Arab colonists undoubtedly carried Eu10, its expansion is dated to ~9000-6400 YBP and generally attributed to Neolithic migrations (Nebel et al. 2001). Therefore, levels of recent admixture may be even lower.

(Di Giacomo et al. 2003)

* * *

An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians) and various Middle Eastern/North African populations revealed a "line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon," which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that "gene flow [across the sea] was more the exception than the rule," attributing this result to "a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture."

NORTH VS SOUTH

Italians share the same ancestry for the most part: Paleolithic, Neolithic and Italic with minor Germanic influences, and even smaller recent non-European ones. But there are two significant differences that account for most genetic as well as phenotypic variation between Northern and Southern Italy, and they have no connection to Roman times or subsequent events.

1) The North has an Ancient Celtic component, while the South has an Ancient Greek one:

http://racialreality.110mb.com/italians_files/Italy_Celtic_North.jpg
http://racialreality.110mb.com/italians_files/Italy_Greek_South.jpg

(Cavalli-Sforza, 1997)

* * *

Overall, however, physical differences are negligible:

http://racialreality.110mb.com/italians.html

Some pics of avarage Italians:

Northern Italian crowds vs southern Italian crowds:

North:

http://img120.exs.cx/img120/1577/Lombardy-UrgnanoBergamo.jpg
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/1123/Emilia-Romagna-MontefiorinoModena04.jpg

South:

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/931/campanianaples148il.jpg
http://img160.exs.cx/img160/9361/campanianaples092xz.jpg

Models:

North:
http://www.missitalia.rai.it/archivio/miss2001/finaliste/small/004a.jpg

Central:
http://www.missitalia.rai.it/archivio/miss2000/finaliste/small/033a.jpg

South:
http://www.missitalia.rai.it/archivio/miss2002/finaliste/small/068a.jpg

TO READ ALL AND SEE ALL THE PICS HERE IS THE SITE LINK http://racialreality.110mb.com/italians.html

Gatillo

08-20-2010, 09:17 PM

(Coon, 1939) = Pure shit.

the rest is interesting. Modern genetic studies are the only important

There really an appreciable difference between the people of southern and northern Italy? in Spain I do not see it, perhaps East and West but nor North and South.

Agrippa

08-20-2010, 09:31 PM

(Coon, 1939) = Pure shit.

Rather not, as he might have been not always wrong, but analysed the material available then in an acceptable way - others should be considered too though, but physical anthropology is definitely of interest and so far, many genetic studies give no better image than the old anthropology did, often even the opposite and I'm not even starting to talk about real phenotypical and racial traits yet, just about migrations and movements...

One should combine, if possible, the results of physical anthropology with genetic studies we have now and compare them, f.e. if a big migration or racial change was postulated then, sooner or latter, tests on prehistorical material and modern populations might solve the mystery once and for all, but without physical anthropology, it's just about genetic data which interpretation is: More difficult and less valuable.

Obviously it is more important from which grandfather you got important traits than some neutral genetic markers, to say it that way...

Gatillo

08-20-2010, 09:40 PM

Rather not, as he might have been not always wrong, but analysed the material available then in an acceptable way - others should be considered too though, but physical anthropology is definitely of interest and so far, many genetic studies give no better image than the old anthropology did, often even the opposite and I'm not even starting to talk about real phenotypical and racial traits yet, just about migrations and movements...

One should combine, if possible, the results of physical anthropology with genetic studies we have now and compare them, f.e. if a big migration or racial change was postulated then, sooner or latter, tests on prehistorical material and modern populations might solve the mystery once and for all, but without physical anthropology, it's just about genetic data which interpretation is: More difficult and less valuable.

Obviously it is more important from which grandfather you got important traits than some neutral genetic markers, to say it that way...

coon honestly worked with the media of his time, I do not doubt its limitations and its merit.

But everything I read from coon is always equal with the South of europe wants to explain that people tend to have dark hair with the Muslim occupation and I believe that there are other important factors that impress us as much as religion Muslim.

I do not think that what I said Coon can stand as a superior test compared to modern genetics.

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 09:45 PM

(Coon, 1939) = Pure shit.

Mind that many of his observations over Italians are a copycat of the Livi's map made over the young recruits before the internal immigrations started.
From my point of view they are more helpful than modern day genetic tests, since the above immigrations may have altered some things.

To me Coon was limited from a phenotypical point of view classification.
In north Italy, Alpine-atlanto med and atlanto med-dinarid are the first phenotypes, whereas south has more med-alpine and dinarids.

Gatillo

08-20-2010, 09:57 PM

Modern genetic studies are usually performed with autochthonous people with ancestors from that land and never immigrants.

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 10:01 PM

Modern genetic studies are usually performed with autochthonous people with ancestors from that land and never immigrants.

Sorry.
I didn't mean foreigners, i meant southern Italians settled in north Italy at the beginning of the first decades of 20th century, whereas Livi's maps(the ones used by Coon) predated those internal immigration.

Gatillo

08-20-2010, 10:14 PM

Sorry.
I didn't mean foreigners, i meant southern Italians settled in north Italy at the beginning of the first decades of 20th century, whereas Livi's maps(the ones used by Coon) predated those internal immigration.

But North-South Differences in Italy are very pronounceable?

I see logical that for millennia has migracciones North-South and vice versa on a peninsula like Italia, And that people will be very similar, if not they were from the beginning.

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 10:21 PM

But North-South Differences in Italy are very pronounceable?

I see logical that for millennia has migracciones North-South and vice versa on a peninsula like Italian, And that people will be very similar, if not they were from the beginning.

To be real there are some differences. Both cultural and phenotypical. Of course i'm not saying that north Italians are like Dolph Lundgren and the southern ones like Arafat but you can notice it.

Ibericus

08-20-2010, 10:25 PM

But North-South Differences in Italy are very pronounceable?

I see logical that for millennia has migracciones North-South and vice versa on a peninsula like Italian, And that people will be very similar, if not they were from the beginning.
No they are not pronounceable. In all the genetic studies the Southern Italians cluster very close with northern Italians, which is very logical. What makes Southern Italians a little different is that lots of them have Greek ancestry.

Gatillo

08-20-2010, 10:30 PM

To be real there are some differences. Both cultural and phenotypical. Of course i'm not saying that north Italians are like Dolph Lundgren and the southern ones like Arafat but you can notice it.

I think are nonsense, also occurs in Germany to a lesser extent Northern people think that the area of Munich and other South of germany are darker or different.

In turn the Nordics do not differentiate between an Italian North and one South for them that we are all brown, nonsense.

But of course is only my opinion, but we can not deny that there is a rather curious tendency to want to differentiate themselves from the neighbors to the south, even in enclosed places such as peninsulas, happens in all countries.

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 10:41 PM

I think are nonsense, also occurs in Germany to a lesser extent Northern people think that the area of Munich and other South of germany are darker or different.

This is not nonsense, the southern part of Germany is really a little darker then the northern part. If i'm not mistaking myself Bavaria is darker than other parts of Germany.

In turn the Nordics do not differentiate between an Italian North and one South for them that we are all brown, nonsense.

That is true for the half. Who has travelled can recognize some phenotypes from others in the same state. Then there are the ones who call some blondes with mongoloid traits "whites" because they are tricked by the blonde hairs and those are usually the ones whop call us brown for the whole.

But of course is only my opinion, but we can not deny that there is a rather curious tendency to want to differentiate themselves from the neighbors to the south, even in enclosed places such as peninsulas, happens in all countries.

I'm not trying to portrait the southern italians as swarthy or something like that, far from me. Though there are some differences verifiable also for the incidence of light eyes, blonde hair, stature and craniofacial measurements.

Stygian Cellarius

08-20-2010, 10:47 PM

I think are nonsense, also occurs in Germany to a lesser extent Northern people think that the area of Munich and other South of germany are darker or different.

But Southern Germans are darker than Northern Germans.

In turn the Nordics do not differentiate between an Italian North and one South for them that we are all brown, nonsense.

Well, it's all relative. To Germans, Italians are darker. The same as most Whites group Negroes together even though Negro diversity is great.

But of course is only my opinion, but we can not deny that there is a rather curious tendency to want to differentiate themselves from the neighbors to the south, even in enclosed places such as peninsulas, happens in all countries.

That's how humans, as biological organisms secure their genepool. They observe cultural or phenetic differences and erect psychological barriers. Then assess the "other" group for negative and positive characteristics.

If non-advantageous characteristics are observed, then the psychological barrier remains.
If disadvantageous characteristics are observed, then the psychological barriers strengthen.
If advantageous characteristics are observed, then the psychological barriers weaken.

Gatillo

08-20-2010, 10:51 PM

I'm not trying to portrait the southern italians as swarthy or something like that, far from me. Though there are some differences verifiable also for the incidence of light eyes, blonde hair, stature and craniofacial measurements.

I have seen some of these pseudo-studies and sorry but not are serious, the Italians for example you put with the same frequency of eye and hair color than the North African.

A example, by Peter Frost, 2006.

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/images/Frost-2.jpg

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 10:55 PM

I have seen some of these pseudo-studies and sorry but not are serious, the Italians for example you put with the same frequency of eye and hair color than the North African.

A example.

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/images/Frost-2.jpg

Are you kidding me or are you serious?
Yes of course, Palestine and eastern Turkye more light eyed than central and south Italy and even of a large part of central Spain.
That map is crap.

Frost is not even a real anthropologist, he only wanted to point out the different eye colours between europeans, every map even the wrong ones could fit his purpose.

Dude if you are jocking let me know that i break this conversation suddenly.

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 11:00 PM

If you want another map i post you the Lungman one, but i seriously doubt that Galicia has the same percentage of light eyes and blonde hair of Palestine, Turkye and north Africa.

http://img509.imageshack.us/i/lundracesmap1of5.jpg/
Get it?

I don't get why it so hard for people to accept some phisycal differences within a country. I'm not saying that north italians are Dolph Lundgren alike; But still, even some southern Italians agree and call northern italians, pasty "polentoni"(that is a typical northern dish)

Gatillo

08-20-2010, 11:00 PM

Are you kidding me or are you serious?
Yes of course, Palestine and eastern Turkye more light eyed than central and south Italy and even a large part of central Spain.
That map is crap.

Dude if you are jocking let me know that i break this conversation suddenly.

¿?¿?¿?¿?

You're the one who has spoken of these studies, I commented that studies were not serious, are all the same shit based on superficial impressions of foreigners, pseudo-cience.

If you're going to get angry we can stop the conversation, I have no problem.

Gatillo

08-20-2010, 11:03 PM

If you want another map i post you the Lungman one, but i seriously doubt that Galicia has the same percentage of light eyes and blonde hair of Palestine, Turkye and north Africa.

Get it?

Look again the map.... is only a small portion of North Africa, of course not is true, but it is true that the Berber ethnic group has some blue eyes, not a 20% only 4-5%.

among other things by the Spanish expelled a lot of Spaniards in that part of Africa in 1609.

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 11:15 PM

¿?¿?¿?¿?

You're the one who has spoken of these studies, I commented that studies were not serious, are all the same shit based on superficial impressions of foreigners, pseudo-cience.
Who spoke about those studies you posted?
I spoke about the Livi's surveys, and you can be sure that they are not superficial impression of foreigners but rather some of the greatest surveys by far over a sample of 300.000 men all over Italy.

If you're going to get angry we can stop the conversation, I have no problem.

If you post silly maps showing that even a large part of Spain has less blue eyed people than Palestine and Turkye of course i get angry.

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 11:19 PM

Look again the map.... is only a small portion of North Africa, of course not is true, but it is true that the Berber ethnic group has some blue eyes, not a 20% only 4-5%.

among other things by the Spanish expelled a lot of Spaniards in that part of Africa in 1609.

So what now? Are you trying to tell me that many italians do not differ in anything from and are even darker in eyes than eastern Turks while the Spaniards are accredited for the high amount of blue eyes in North Africa?

You are a buffon dude and probably a troll too.

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 11:22 PM

Here you are:
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5562/lundracesmap1of5.jpg

These maps are craps and you are trying to make a comparison between italians and spaniards with your craps.

Gatillo

08-20-2010, 11:24 PM

What part of "pseudo science" not understand? there are no serious studies of eye color or hair, that's what I tried to explain, you need read everything back again and relax.

And do you have to insult me? I think you have a problem.

P.D THE author of the maps. http://pages.globetrotter.net/peter_frost61z/

http://pages.globetrotter.net/peter_frost61z/European-hair-and-eye-color.htm

I repeat, for me are pseudo-science.

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 11:35 PM

What part of "pseudo science" not understand? there are no serious studies of eye color or hair, that's what I tried to explain.

And what part of Livi's survey(an italian anthroplogist who tested 300.000 italians not the whole Europe)you don't understand?

And do you have to insult me? I think you have a problem.

No dude the only one with problems is you here. I did not even speak about Spaniards, i purely spoke about italians and you were coming out with those fake maps useless for the matter.

Gatillo

08-20-2010, 11:40 PM

San Galgano

08-20-2010, 11:49 PM

Ok I see that your only intention is to talk about what you are blond Northern Italians and your concern is that you will not be confused with the South who are brown.

and if anyone thinks differently is a troll

I have finished the discussion with you.

I have never said anything like that to be real, i have only said that internal variations happen in every country and i expressly claimed that in north Italy don't live Dolph Lundgren's alike italians.

Now if you want tell me that berbers have light eyes because expelled converted spaniards went there, that is a trollish attitude, especially if you want to state too that italians have the same amount of light eyes of eastern Turkye and Palestine.

Then i don't understand why you asked if there are differences between north italians and the southern ones and get shocked if i tell you like that.
Don't even ask then.

Eldritch

08-20-2010, 11:55 PM

In turn the Nordics do not differentiate between an Italian North and one South for them that we are all brown, nonsense.

O RLY? Well thanks for telling us what we think.

Gatillo

08-21-2010, 12:09 AM

I have never said anything like that to be real, i have only said that internal variations happen in every country and i expressly claimed that in north Italy don't live Dolph Lundgren's alike italians.

Now if you want tell me that berbers have light eyes because expelled converted spaniards went there, that is a trollish attitude, especially if you want to state too that italians have the same amount of light eyes of eastern Turkye and Palestine.

Then i don't understand why you asked if there are differences between north italians and the southern ones and get shocked if i tell you like that.
Don't even ask then.

My only intention was to say that modern genetic studies are the only important, statistics of hair and eye colors are shit.

I put a maps of an anthropologist of Canada, made in 2006, modern, to show that they always lie, are trash and stereotypes based on false impressions and you understand it as if it were an insult to your hair blond of habitant of northern italy.

I guess that was a misunderstanding but do not forget that you called me buffon and other insults.

These studies are shit you know for example a baby can change hair and eye color if live its early days and months in a sunny atmosphere? and it does not change your DNA, just change the pigmentation of eyes and hair, sometimes.

Gatillo

08-21-2010, 12:12 AM

O RLY? Well thanks for telling us what we think.

going to tell me there are not a lot of people in Northern Europe who think that?

Eldritch

08-21-2010, 12:26 AM

going to tell me there are not a lot of people in Northern Europe who think that?

First of all, not all people in northern Europe are Nordics. At first you spoke about Nordics, not about northern Europeans. Sure, the overlap is significant but we might as well keep the paradigm straight. I'm assuming you were talking about "inhabitants of the Nordic countries", rather than "people who are phenotypically Nordid", correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, are there a lot of people in the Nordic countries who think there's no difference between south and north Italians? I dare say there aren't. Most likely there are some, but then again there are dumb people in every country and what they think is of no consequence anyway. Probably not every Nordic person has even given the matter a lot of thought, but I'm sure that even people who know next to nothing about Italy must understand intuitively that the country consists of several different regions and areas. I know nothing at all about Bhutan, but even I understand that people from different areas in that country most likely must have cultural, ethnic etc. differences. See how that works?

Move on to people who actually have read up on the history and geography of Italy (such as in, "cough cough", school) and you'll find that almost all of them understand this. I don't want to come across as condescending, nor do I think this is a major issue, but I just wanted to point this out.

Besides, haven't you just yourself fallen into the trap of thinking "all people in region X think/act/say Y"?

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 12:27 AM

My only intention was to say that modern genetic studies are the only important, statistics of hair and eye colors are shit.

If we talk about phenotypes to me it does matter even statistic of hair and eyes. North italians have more blue eyed and light haired people than the southern part. I can't see blasphemy in this. 37% of southern Italians can trace back their roots to greeks, whereas north italians have a bigger celtic heritage. It Is not a mistery nor a desire to slander southern Italians. You probably met some idiots of the Lega North but that is not my case. Southern italians are proud of their greek ancestry.

I put a maps of an anthropologist of Canada, made in 2006, modern, to show that they always lie, are trash and stereotypes based on false impressions and you understand it as if it were an insult to your hair blond of habitant of northern italy.

I'm not even from north Italy as i'm considered center Italy.
And i didn't consider that an insult, but i'm tired of people trying to picture Italy as if they lived here. In Italy there are some regional differences and i'm not the only one saying this.
Anyway I apologize with you if you were only trying to say that those maps are craps.

I guess that was a misunderstanding but do not forget that you called me buffon and other insults.

Again i apologize, i probably mistaken you for a troll who usual slanders north Italians.

These studies are shit you know for example a baby can change hair and eye color if live its early days and months in a sunny atmosphere? and it does not change your DNA, just change the pigmentation of eyes and hair, sometimes.

There are even some genetic differences between north and south Italy, but anyway let's stop here.:thumb001:

Gatillo

08-21-2010, 12:39 AM

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 12:47 AM

Ok, it is clear that this is simply a misunderstanding.

Eldritch your intention is good but I think you're wrong and that many people do not stop to think about differences as ridiculous as a 5-10% higher frequency of light eyes and hair in a region of Italy, Greece, Spain, France ect. .. I think it's also the most logical and normal not stopping to look at that ridiculous rate

Though you agree that a difference of 10% is not so low, and that probably a region could have had a different history which caused a bigger % of light eyes and hair and created a different culture during time then?

Eldritch

08-21-2010, 12:52 AM

...

Eldritch your intention is good but I think you're wrong and that many people do not stop to think about differences as ridiculous as a 5-10% higher frequency of light eyes and hair in a region of Italy, Greece, Spain, France ect. .. I think it's also the most logical and normal not stopping to look at that ridiculous rate

I'm not sure I understand what you mean; isn't it a good thing if most people don't think about ridiculous differences?

Anyway let's drop it, it's not important anyway.

Curtis24

08-21-2010, 12:56 AM

coon honestly worked with the media of his time, I do not doubt its limitations and its merit.

But everything I read from coon is always equal with the South of europe wants to explain that people tend to have dark hair with the Muslim occupation and I believe that there are other important factors that impress us as much as religion Muslim.

I do not think that what I said Coon can stand as a superior test compared to modern genetics.

But modern archaeogenetics is even more distorted by the media than Coon's work. For instance, Bryan Sykes and Stephen Oppenheimer both published books claiming that the British/Irish populations have experienced few major genetic changes since Neolothic times. Both books recieved major media attention, because they seemed to support the "race is a social construct" way of thinking. But more recent genetic advances have shown that the data Sykes and Oppenheimer used was wrongly interpreted.

Recently there was another thread where the media had distorted some study involving the Etruscans to try to convince the public that Italians were genetically the same as Turks.

Furthermore, much genetic data seems to be highly ambiguous at present. I've seen studies showing that Vikings both had a strong impact, and had a neglible impact, on Ireland's population etc.

Current genetic can obviously show some very general things about inheritance, but at present physical anthropology is still a more specific and consistent way of defining ancestry.

Gatillo

08-21-2010, 01:01 AM

a 15% or 20% or even 25% not is a big difference, the reason may be environmentally more or less light in the environment, genetic differences are also small, a small Greek contribution in the South for example, and a small contribution in other areas Ostrogoth would rise slightly the percentage of eye color.

but the main and common people, the root, is the same on a closed peninsula where there were always exchange of people, In short, I think the differences are small.

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 01:17 AM

Gatillo i sent you a p.m.
Check it out.

Gatillo

08-21-2010, 01:19 AM

But modern archaeogenetics is even more distorted by the media than Coon's work. For instance, Bryan Sykes and Stephen Oppenheimer both published books claiming that the British/Irish populations have experienced few major genetic changes since Neolothic times. Both books recieved major media attention, because they seemed to support the "race is a social construct" way of thinking. But more recent genetic advances have shown that the data Sykes and Oppenheimer used was wrongly interpreted.

Recently there was another thread where the media had distorted some study involving the Etruscans to try to convince the public that Italians were genetically the same as Turks.

Furthermore, much genetic data seems to be highly ambiguous at present. I've seen studies showing that Vikings both had a strong impact, and had a neglible impact, on Ireland's population etc.

Current genetic can obviously show some very general things about inheritance, but at present physical anthropology is still a more specific and consistent way of defining ancestry.

I agree, sometimes the politicians manipulate the interpretation of a genetic study, but not the study itself (scientists are playing their prestige) For that reason it is best to read the study directly and not a newspaper that tells the story.

I do not know if I expressed myself badly, anyway this media manipulation does not give more veracity the obsolete studies of Professor Coon.

Curtis24

08-21-2010, 01:21 AM

Gatillo

08-21-2010, 01:42 AM

But its not as if Italy is a wide open plain. There is a geographical barrier - the Appenine Mountains - that separates North from South.

Furthermore, you assume a population constantly in flux, which is not an accurate assumption. There were some periods of major population flux in Italy, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

You can see that the real obstacle is not the Apennine mountains, the main obstacle are the alpes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Italia_fisica_appennini.png

Curtis24

08-21-2010, 01:47 AM

Ok, but the existence of the Alps still wouldn't prevent a racial dichotomy between North and South. It merely indicates that most of Italy's population would come from sea-travelers rather than continental migrations - which physical anthropology and genetics both back up.

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 01:51 AM

You can see that the real obstacle is not the Apennine mountains, the main obstacle are the alpes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Italia_fisica_appennini.png

Gatillo, celts arrived via Slovenia, and Pyrenees have been not an obstacle to celts nor germanic invasion of Spain, as well as Goths and Franks and celts haven't had any problem to reach Rome and Italy via Alps.

Internal migrations are different things.
The main fluxes in Italy have been during romans time(romans transplanted apuani tribes-ancient ligures-in S. Italy) and the 20th century when S.Italians moved to N.Italy.
If you read history of Italy you will see that there wasn't the need for italians to move around the peninsula save the times i wrote above.

poiuytrewq0987

08-21-2010, 01:56 AM

http://www.missitalia.rai.it/archivio/miss2001/finaliste/small/004a.jpg

She looks a LOT like a girl who I know from the Balkans.

Gatillo

08-21-2010, 02:01 AM

I agree, the Alps or the Apennines not were a problem for migration.

We have strayed from the main topic, my intention was that Coon is outdated and unreliable, today.

Foxy

08-21-2010, 08:27 AM

To be real there are some differences. Both cultural and phenotypical. Of course i'm not saying that north Italians are like Dolph Lundgren and the southern ones like Arafat but you can notice it.

I think that the differences are more cultural than phenotypical. Surely in the south you have higher percentage to find olive skinned people. But that's all. I have travelled almost in all Italy and I saw not so great differences. The only regions worth of notible differences for me are Sardinia, where people is really shorter and to find a blonde is almost impossible, and Apulia, where people seem to have different features, but I am not able to explain why.
Tuscans, Latials, Marchigians and Abruzzeses look to me almost the same.
I have not been in Sicily yet.
Northern Italians look not so different from central Italians.

Foxy

08-21-2010, 08:36 AM

You can see that the real obstacle is not the Apennine mountains, the main obstacle are the alpes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Italia_fisica_appennini.png

Indeed except in Abruzzo, where Appennines are pretty tall (until 3000 metres), the rest is not so high (Alps are far higher). And also the division between Abruzzo and Lazium is not phenotypic, but more geographical.
As Abruzzo constantly receives winds from North-East and Appennines isolates most of the winds, Abruzzo is colder and less green than Latium, which is, vice versa, hotter and more mitigate. L'Aquila, capital city of Abruzzo, is the coldest city of Italy, with temperatures than in winter are costantly around -20°.
But on a genetic base, there's not difference between Latials and Abruzzeses and these two regions had exchanges before Roman times.

http://www.flapane.com/maps/cartina_lazio.gif

Foxy

08-21-2010, 08:51 AM

If we talk about phenotypes to me it does matter even statistic of hair and eyes. North italians have more blue eyed and light haired people than the southern part. I can't see blasphemy in this. 37% of southern Italians can trace back their roots to greeks, whereas north italians have a bigger celtic heritage. It Is not a mistery nor a desire to slander southern Italians. You probably met some idiots of the Lega North but that is not my case. Southern italians are proud of their greek ancestry.

I'm not even from north Italy as i'm considered center Italy.
And i didn't consider that an insult, but i'm tired of people trying to picture Italy as if they lived here. In Italy there are some regional differences and i'm not the only one saying this.
Anyway I apologize with you if you were only trying to say that those maps are craps.

Again i apologize, i probably mistaken you for a troll who usual slanders north Italians.

There are even some genetic differences between north and south Italy, but anyway let's stop here.:thumb001:

And we from the centre are not Celtic nor Greek, but Roman.

Foxy

08-21-2010, 09:02 AM

[QUOTE=RomanQueen;255281]ITALIANS

The differences between Northern and Southern Italians have also been greatly exaggerated for political reasons.

NORTH VS SOUTH

Italians share the same ancestry for the most part: Paleolithic, Neolithic and Italic with minor Germanic influences, and even smaller recent non-European ones. But there are two significant differences that account for most genetic as well as phenotypic variation between Northern and Southern Italy, and they have no connection to Roman times or subsequent events.

1) The North has an Ancient Celtic component, while the South has an Ancient Greek one:

http://racialreality.110mb.com/italians_files/Italy_Celtic_North.jpg
http://racialreality.110mb.com/italians_files/Italy_Greek_South.jpg

(Cavalli-Sforza, 1997)

* * *

Overall, however, physical differences are negligible:

[/QUOTE=RomanQueen;255281]

Read the post again, people. It is said not that there are no differences between Northerns and southerns, but only that they have been very exaggerated for political reason.
In short, Italians constitute one only country. It is false to say that they are 2 or even 3 countries together. But there are differences like in every other nation.

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 12:27 PM

[QUOTE=RomanQueen;255544]I think that the differences are more cultural than phenotypical. Surely in the south you have higher percentage to find olive skinned people. But that's all.

That is not a little thing Roman Queen. More olive skin tone imply a different history, i.e Greeks in southern Italy.

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 12:32 PM

And we from the centre are not Celtic nor Greek, but Roman.

Villanovian-etruscan-latin-umbrian to be more precise.;)
And i'd add even ancient ligures and some celts as well.

Curtis24

08-21-2010, 01:00 PM

Well, everyone I know who has visited Italy says there's great skin color differences between North and South, as well as behavioral differences. Northerners are more restrained and deliberate like most Europeans, while people become noisier, ruder, more pushy as one goes south, these things being most pronounced in Sicily.

Completely anecdotal, I know, but at the least North and South seem to be at different stages of socioeconomic development.

Agrippa

08-21-2010, 02:30 PM

In the South the Mediterranean Neolithic (Cardium Pottery) was already stronger, though it reached further north of course, so were influences over the adriatic sea and Greek and other Eastern and Southern Mediterranean's people colonisations, including that of some Phoenicians and Saracens and the like, but also Normans as we know.

The North on the other hand has a somewhat different climate and economy, was a region with much more influences from the North, Italics were stronger, Celts anyway, Germanics too.

After all, the South too has many Northern influences, but its just that the respective differences are observable and that certain variants and traits more common in lets say Sicily are less common in lets say Lombardy and vice versa.

Simple facts, the North is more Alpinoid-Atlantomediterranid with more Northern influences, the South is more Gracilmediterranid with Alpinoid and Dinarid, with more Southern influences - relative to each other.

Foxy

08-21-2010, 02:55 PM

Villanovian-etruscan-latin-umbrian to be more precise.;)
And i'd add even ancient ligures and some celts as well.

And Samnitic and Picenean... But all these constitute the central band. I am sad that us from the centre are very few rapresented in this dispute. Can I tell you one thing?

We are the best!

http://www.sopra-acqua.net/Mid_ITALY_map.png

Besides I am totallt againt this dualism North vs South, becouse they are forgetting the richness of centre. Florence and Rome together have more monuments that many European countries.

Anyway, Sicily is not the Middle East, is the Far West.

Gatillo

08-21-2010, 04:34 PM

I think that the Sicilians do not represent the south of Italy, or the center, the islands are always more complicated.

Metanthropos

08-21-2010, 04:51 PM

Simple facts, the North is more Alpinoid-Atlantomediterranid with more Northern influences, the South is more Gracilmediterranid with Alpinoid and Dinarid, with more Southern influences - relative to each other.

We all know Coon's page on Italy, but what's Eickstedt's opinion?

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 06:24 PM

Edited..

Metanthropos

08-21-2010, 07:07 PM

Sopra di me potete notare un'altra testa di cazzo teutonica rincoglionita e con il cazzo ritto pensando ai vichinghi e a Dolph Lundgren..lol

Povera Europa...

Non è che stai facendo tutto da solo?

Aviane

08-21-2010, 07:13 PM

But Southern Germans are darker than Northern Germans.

Well, it's all relative. To Germans, Italians are darker. The same as most Whites group Negroes together even though Negro diversity is great.

That's how humans, as biological organisms secure their genepool. They observe cultural or phenetic differences and erect psychological barriers. Then assess the "other" group for negative and positive characteristics.

If non-advantageous characteristics are observed, then the psychological barrier remains.
If disadvantageous characteristics are observed, then the psychological barriers strengthen.
If advantageous characteristics are observed, then the psychological barriers weaken.

Yes South Germans are usually more darker than North Germans especially in hair and eye color.

But yes also in general us Whites do have a bad habit of grouping all blacks as if they are all the same and which in reality is more the opposite.

If you want another map i post you the Lungman one, but i seriously doubt that Galicia has the same percentage of light eyes and blonde hair of Palestine, Turkye and north Africa.

http://img509.imageshack.us/i/lundracesmap1of5.jpg/
Get it?

I don't get why it so hard for people to accept some phisycal differences within a country. I'm not saying that north italians are Dolph Lundgren alike; But still, even some southern Italians agree and call northern italians, pasty "polentoni"(that is a typical northern dish)

I agree their some aleast some differences in Italy between the North and South but it doesn't mean one end looks like Sweden and the other Saudi Arabia (for a fact I don't think is in anyway true) which is rather exaggerated.

So what now? Are you trying to tell me that many italians do not differ in anything from and are even darker in eyes than eastern Turks while the Spaniards are accredited for the high amount of blue eyes in North Africa?

You are a buffon dude and probably a troll too.

I seriously doubt that most Italians have darker eyes than Eastern Turks even though Turks can still be light eyed and rather have comparisons with some Greeks.

I also doubt if this guy is for real.

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 07:37 PM

Non è che stai facendo tutto da solo?

ahahahaha
Scusami!!!:p

Pensavo che tu avessi citato Eickstedt perche' parla di razza mediterranea da sotto l'arco alpino fino all'Africa del nord e il medio oriente implicando che siamo africani.
Ho preso un'abbaglio colossale.

http://www.siciliatv.org/ecards/img/scusa.jpg

Aviane

08-21-2010, 07:44 PM

And what part of Livi's survey(an italian anthroplogist who tested 300.000 italians not the whole Europe)you don't understand?

No dude the only one with problems is you here. I did not even speak about Spaniards, i purely spoke about italians and you were coming out with those fake maps useless for the matter.

I wouldn't give him too much satisfaction, he sounds quite parinoid.

I have never said anything like that to be real, i have only said that internal variations happen in every country and i expressly claimed that in north Italy don't live Dolph Lundgren's alike italians.

Now if you want tell me that berbers have light eyes because expelled converted spaniards went there, that is a trollish attitude, especially if you want to state too that italians have the same amount of light eyes of eastern Turkye and Palestine.

Then i don't understand why you asked if there are differences between north italians and the southern ones and get shocked if i tell you like that.
Don't even ask then.

Well he shouldn't of even bothered as said don't ask for what you can't handle.

If we talk about phenotypes to me it does matter even statistic of hair and eyes. North italians have more blue eyed and light haired people than the southern part. I can't see blasphemy in this. 37% of southern Italians can trace back their roots to greeks, whereas north italians have a bigger celtic heritage. It Is not a mistery nor a desire to slander southern Italians. You probably met some idiots of the Lega North but that is not my case. Southern italians are proud of their greek ancestry.

I'm not even from north Italy as i'm considered center Italy.
And i didn't consider that an insult, but i'm tired of people trying to picture Italy as if they lived here. In Italy there are some regional differences and i'm not the only one saying this.
Anyway I apologize with you if you were only trying to say that those maps are craps.

Again i apologize, i probably mistaken you for a troll who usual slanders north Italians.

There are even some genetic differences between north and south Italy, but anyway let's stop here.:thumb001:

You tell him, your the one who only knows your country better and yes Northern Italians are a bit more lighter than Southern Italians aleast in hair and eye color and a little in skin tone.

Metanthropos

08-21-2010, 08:05 PM

ahahahaha
Scusami!!!:p

Pensavo che tu avessi citato Eickstedt perche' parla di razza mediterranea da sotto l'arco alpino fino all'Africa del nord e il medio oriente implicando che siamo africani.
Ho preso un'abbaglio colossale.

Dovresti essere contento visto che Eickstedt prova un'attrazione quasi erotica verso il tipo mediterraneo "delicato ed elegante" dalle fattezze "regolari ed armoniose" e dalla corporatura "snella e proporzionata" come dimostra il vicino di casa terrone.

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 08:13 PM

I agree their some aleast some differences in Italy between the North and South but it doesn't mean one end looks like Sweden and the other Saudi Arabia (for a fact I don't think is in anyway true) which is rather exaggerated.
Right Asterox, and i think this is the point. When north Italians say they are paler and more blue eyed than the southern Italians, foreigners always think that this imply that their phenotype is like the stereotypical vicking of the books, then if they see a brown haired and light eyed italian they say you are not white as you claim. As if the stereotypical vicking look was largely diffused once you cross the borders of Italy. Whites comes in different shades of course.

I seriously doubt that most Italians have darker eyes than Eastern Turks even though Turks can still be light eyed and rather have comparisons with some Greeks.

Indeed Asterox. Notice then in the map the guy posted, how Palestine, Turkye and part of N.Africa have almost the same % of light eyes of Cornwall, South England and Wales.
Just to point out which genetists and anthropologists we have to deal with.

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 08:17 PM

Dovresti essere contento visto che Eickstedt prova un'attrazione quasi erotica verso il tipo mediterraneo "delicato ed elegante" dalle fattezze "regolari ed armoniose" e dalla corporatura "snella e proporzionata" come dimostra il vicino di casa terrone.

ahahaha

Si pero' non mi va di essere associato ai nord africani visto che sono 1.85cm con gli occhi chiarissimi.:thumb001:
Gia' il vicino terrone rispecchia di piu' quelle fattezze.;)

p.s
Sei Tirolese?

Aviane

08-21-2010, 08:36 PM

Metanthropos

08-21-2010, 08:37 PM

ahahaha

Si pero' non mi va di essere associato ai nord africani visto che sono 1.85cm con gli occhi chiarissimi.:thumb001:
Gia' il vicino terrone rispecchia di piu' quelle fattezze.;)
Ma i nordafricani sono alti. Sono i terroni che sono bassi.

p.s
Sei Tirolese?

No, però sto in Italia.

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 08:39 PM

San Galgano

08-21-2010, 08:43 PM

Ma i nordafricani sono alti. Sono i terroni che sono bassi.

Si, pero' gli occhi color turchese non li vedi nei magrebini.;)
Magari in qualche meridionale si:D

No, però sto in Italia.

..E io ti faccio i miei complimenti per la padronanza della lingua.
Impressionante direi.

Foxy

08-22-2010, 07:58 AM

Right Asterox, and i think this is the point. When north Italians say they are paler and more blue eyed than the southern Italians, foreigners always think that this imply that their phenotype is like the stereotypical vicking of the books, then if they see a brown haired and light eyed italian they say you are not white as you claim. As if the stereotypical vicking look was largely diffused once you cross the borders of Italy. Whites comes in different shades of course.

Indeed Asterox. Notice then in the map the guy posted, how Palestine, Turkye and part of N.Africa have almost the same % of light eyes of Cornwall, South England and Wales.
Just to point out which genetists and anthropologists we have to deal with.

For the truth the lightest Italians I have seen where from Campania, so southern Italy, for the simple reason that differently from most Italians who have at most golden blonde hair, there I've seen natural platinum blondes, becouse of the norman heritage. Surely most of them have the typical southern look, but the light one are really light :D
Same goes for tallness.
I have a 2nd grade cousin living in Salerno who's half Abruzzese and half Campanian. Her father is Campanian and is very tall with blue eyes and blonde hair. She is 17 now and is platinum blonde and has nordic features. When she went at school for the first time people thought she had been adopted from Sweden or Ukraine. She came back home shocked and crying becouse thought her parents had lied to her, ahahah!!

Same goes for my bf. He's 1/4 Campanian and 3/4 Abruzzese and is 2 meters tall with blonde hair and green eyes. When we went to Berlin and in Munich people spoke him directly in German, and he replied: <<I am Italian>> and they were pretty surprised.
Surely they are a minorance, most Italian from North and South are brunette.

Ma i nordafricani sono alti. Sono i terroni che sono bassi.

No, però sto in Italia.

Dove vivi? Io studio tedesco e mi servirebbe una mano...
Ohi, ma come ci sei sbarcato qua?

poiuytrewq0987

08-22-2010, 09:29 AM

That's right this is silly when people follow the books in what North Italians say that they are some type of Germans or Vikings and South Italians are a type of Arab or Moor. To be honest the stereotypical viking look would be more going towards the Netherlands or Denmark.

All the more reason why Padania needs to be an independent state.

Northern Italian:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:m0ErT6blun2tlM:http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4240/blancpur.png&t=1

Southern Italian:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:9xIUUdTvFGQiyM:http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/ssrusha/Gypsies/GypcyScum.jpg&t=1

Agrippa

08-22-2010, 01:10 PM

We all know Coon's page on Italy, but what's Eickstedt's opinion?

In German literature Northern Italy was seen as being more Alpinoid (and Northern related), Southern Italy as a basically more Gracilmediterranid area, but I'm currently not at home, I might add some quotations probably...

San Galgano

08-22-2010, 01:33 PM

For the truth the lightest Italians I have seen where from Campania, so southern Italy, for the simple reason that differently from most Italians who have at most golden blonde hair, there I've seen natural platinum blondes, becouse of the norman heritage.

Let's omit with nonchalance people from Veneto and Piedmont both for tallness and blondness....;)
People from Campania have some enclaves with very blond people, but in the north the golden blonde is more diffused. Anyway around Benevento there are also little cities with Norman names. But i'm not convinced blondness it is a norman heritage, i think it is because of the apuani and other ancient italic tribes. Otherwise following your way of reasoning, People from Piedmont, Lombardy, Veneto, Emilia,Tuscany and Umbria should be like people from Germany since thre have been two german waves of Franks and Goths plus permanent celts in some cases there.

San Galgano

08-22-2010, 01:40 PM

All the more reason why Padania needs to be an independent state.

Northern Italian:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:m0ErT6blun2tlM:http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4240/blancpur.png&t=1

Southern Italian:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:9xIUUdTvFGQiyM:http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/ssrusha/Gypsies/GypcyScum.jpg&t=1

The guy in the 2nd pic is a Greek-balkan heritage dude.:D

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/greeksahoy!/magna_grecia_metropoleis.jpg

Gatillo

08-22-2010, 05:47 PM

poiuytrewq0987

08-22-2010, 06:54 PM

San Galgano

08-22-2010, 07:01 PM

All the more reason why Padania needs to be an independent state.

Northern Italian:

Southern Italian:

Let's say more something like this:
North Italians:
http://quomedia.diesis.it/images/3480.jpg

Southern italians:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qD38Ibdgi64/Si4Xuypvz6I/AAAAAAAAAWs/8JlWCZgudA8/s400/alessio+2.jpg

There is no need to be extreme like that, and above all that was not my intention.

San Galgano

08-22-2010, 07:05 PM

An easy way to find out whether they have norman heritage or not would be to go to where they live and force them to take 23andme tests. :D

Some southern italians cluster with swedish people indeed, but of course it is not the rule, as well as it is not the rule for N.Italians.
Many N.italians cluster with swiss and french people while south Italians cluster with Greece for the most.

Aviane

08-22-2010, 10:26 PM

I do feel Northern Italians are especially more closer to the French and Swiss they could be apart of my people very simply or family members, well some of them atleast.

As for Southern Italians is no surprise that they're closer to Greeks or even Balkanians, which they would be more at home in those places.

Foxy

08-23-2010, 10:21 AM

Let's omit with nonchalance people from Veneto and Piedmont both for tallness and blondness....;)
People from Campania have some enclaves with very blond people, but in the north the golden blonde is more diffused. Anyway around Benevento there are also little cities with Norman names. But i'm not convinced blondness it is a norman heritage, i think it is because of the apuani and other ancient italic tribes. Otherwise following your way of reasoning, People from Piedmont, Lombardy, Veneto, Emilia,Tuscany and Umbria should be like people from Germany since thre have been two german waves of Franks and Goths plus permanent celts in some cases there.

I give you a bad news: not all the Celts were light and surely they were darker than normans. And Longobards and the other germanic tribes who invaded Italy went also to central and southern Italy. Ostrogothes put their capital in Emilia and Longobards in Lombardy, but they spread throughout the peninsula, except for those territories under Bizantines and the Church. But they have always been a minorance. They couldn't change the dna. Same goes for Normans. For me the presence of more brunettes in the south is due first of all to climatical reasons, then to the massive Greek presence there.
But if I meet a platinum blonde from Sicily I have no doubt that he/she has got norman ancestry, becouse no other people who settled Sicily had those colours.
Anyway I don't see why people is so obsessed with blondes... Bah... White brunettes are rarer than white blondes, so the special ones are the first :D

besides.... (look down)...

Let's say more something like this:
North Italians:
http://quomedia.diesis.it/images/3480.jpg

Southern italians:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qD38Ibdgi64/Si4Xuypvz6I/AAAAAAAAAWs/8JlWCZgudA8/s400/alessio+2.jpg

in this case I go for the southern one :wink

Some southern italians cluster with swedish people indeed, but of course it is not the rule, as well as it is not the rule for N.Italians.
Many N.italians cluster with swiss and french people while south Italians cluster with Greece for the most.

If you have travelled you should have seen that there is an abyss between Swisse and Lombardians. Lombardians look more like central Italian than like Swisses.
Plus you cited Piedmonteses as one of the tallest region of Italy, whereas it is one of the shortest, lol :D

Avarage tallness:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Statura_Italia.png/300px-Statura_Italia.png

Diffusion of light and dark traits:
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A-zlkymaK3_lmM:http://www.thegreatsleep.com/img/hair.gif&t=1

And human skintone:
http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/k16kl3c2f2au/4tokm2/e1-13.jpg

Thor

08-23-2010, 11:17 AM

I know alot of people who believe southern europeans are just a mix of arabs and jews and that greeks are turks. I know thats not all true but they dont listen when i try to tell them what should i tell them.

Metanthropos

08-23-2010, 12:07 PM

Plus you cited Piedmonteses as one of the tallest region of Italy, whereas it is one of the shortest, lol :D

Avarage tallness:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Statura_Italia.png/300px-Statura_Italia.png

What's the source of that map? Data taken after Southern immigration?

Dalla carta che presenta la distribuzione della statura (fig. 51) appare come le variazioni regionali siano molto notevoli, andando da un minimo di cm. 154,4 (Lanusei) a due massimi di 168,1 (Asiago) e 168,4 (Saluzzo).

R. Biasutti, Le razze e i popoli della Terra. The tallest district in the whole country was found in Piedmont.

I don't give a damn about those quarrels but I wonder why here in your first post while quoting Coon you've been careful to delete this sentence everybody can read in Coon's chapter:

No country in Europe in which one language and one cultural tradition prevail shows a greater diversity of race between its southern and its northern extremities than does Italy.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII7.htm

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 01:13 PM

I give you a bad news: not all the Celts were light and surely they were darker than normans. And Longobards and the other germanic tribes who invaded Italy went also to central and southern Italy. Ostrogothes put their capital in Emilia and Longobards in Lombardy, but they spread throughout the peninsula, except for those territories under Bizantines and the Church. But they have always been a minorance. They couldn't change the dna. Same goes for Normans. For me the presence of more brunettes in the south is due first of all to climatical reasons, then to the massive Greek presence there.
But if I meet a platinum blonde from Sicily I have no doubt that he/she has got norman ancestry, becouse no other people who settled Sicily had those colours.
Anyway I don't see why people is so obsessed with blondes... Bah... White brunettes are rarer than white blondes, so the special ones are the first :D
But celts were surely lighter than greeks in the south, and both were largely presents in the two extremes of the peninsula and created the substratums. Marche region too had a great presence of Celts.
I know history of Italy anyway thanks. The presence of the Longobards in north-central Italy can't be compared to the one in south Italy, even from a cultural point of view. The longobards gave rise to the feudal property and communes in the center-north, while communes never affected south Italy. As for the blonde platinum people in southern Italy, someone probably is a norman descendant as well as in N-central.Italy someone is a longobard descendant, and some because of pre-existing italic tribes, and celts. Climatical reasons need a larger time than 2500 years to change phenotypes and before greeks Italy was invaded by indoeuropeans for the whole who were similar in features.
Plus in Sicily settled the Sicanes who were a ligur tribe, and it is obvious that not all the Greeks were the stereoyped greeks of Hollywood, and they got blonde haired people too.

If you have travelled you should have seen that there is an abyss between Swisse and Lombardians. Lombardians look more like central Italian than like Swisses.
Bah...i spoke about autosomal tests, anyway northern Italy don't differ too much in phenotype from Southern France if you have visited both.

Plus you cited Piedmonteses as one of the tallest region of Italy, whereas it is one of the shortest, lol :D

Avarage tallness:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Statura_Italia.png/300px-Statura_Italia.png

Diffusion of light and dark traits:
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A-zlkymaK3_lmM:http://www.thegreatsleep.com/img/hair.gif&t=1

And human skintone:
http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/k16kl3c2f2au/4tokm2/e1-13.jpg

Yes Piedmonteses, Venetes, Lombards and Tuscans were the tallest in Italy before the internal immigrations started. See Livi's surveys and Biasutti. I don't know what 1st map should mean but you know that is hard to find a real ethnic piedmontese today.
I don't get what these maps should mean in general to be real. They say basically what i stated before.
Shortest people are in the south of Italy, the less light too. Where are the news?

Ibericus

08-23-2010, 01:53 PM

And human skintone:
http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/k16kl3c2f2au/4tokm2/e1-13.jpg
This map is really bad. There is no way on earth that Balkanics have the same skintone as Turks and middle-easts. Also North-Africans are way darker than southern europeans

Foxy

08-23-2010, 02:29 PM

But celts were surely lighter than greeks in the south, and both were largely presents in the two extremes of the peninsula and created the substratums. Marche region too had a great presence of Celts.
I know history of Italy anyway thanks. The presence of the Longobards in north-central Italy can't be compared to the one in south Italy, even from a cultural point of view. The longobards gave rise to the feudal property and communes in the center-north, while communes never affected south Italy. As for the blonde platinum people in southern Italy, someone probably is a norman descendant as well as in N-central.Italy someone is a longobard descendant, and some because of pre-existing italic tribes, and celts. Climatical reasons need a larger time than 2500 years to change phenotypes and before greeks Italy was invaded by indoeuropeans for the whole who were similar in features.
Plus in Sicily settled the Sicanes who were a ligur tribe, and it is obvious that not all the Greeks were the stereoyped greeks of Hollywood, and they got blonde haired people too.

Bah...i spoke about autosomal tests, anyway northern Italy don't differ too much in phenotype from Southern France if you have visited both.

Yes Piedmonteses, Venetes, Lombards and Tuscans were the tallest in Italy before the internal immigrations started. See Livi's surveys and Biasutti. I don't know what 1st map should mean but you know that is hard to find a real ethnic piedmontese today.
I don't get what these maps should mean in general though. They say basically what i stated before.
Shortest people are in the south of Italy, the less light too. Where are the news?

Yes that there's difference between the North and the South is clear, but in my opinion differences have been exaggerated. All the northern Italians I have met were, if not like southerns, not different from centrals and also in the features they have all the same facial features: latins/atlantids. In the deep South maybe people has a prevalent dinaric structure, but people from centre and from North look to me the same.
Southern Frenchs too, indeed they are latin and the backgroud of them is not different from the Northern Italian one. Central Italians at the beginning were a mix of Romans, Celts and Italics, so they have something in common with southern Frechs too. Where do you put centrals in this dispute?

This map is really bad. There is no way on earth that Balkanics have the same skintone as Turks and middle-easts. Also North-Africans are way darker than southern europeans

Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccans have a light skin indeed, as it is shown in this map. The point is that the skinton doesn't make them white. Indeed just look at a Morroccan facial structure and at a Spanish facial structure. The differences are clear!

Algerian:
http://www.atour.com/news/international/images/20010703.jpg

Spanish:
http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc209/commentdog2/spanish-thursday/images/spanish-thursday-cute-guy.gif

Italian:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_78wgd5ujqrc/Sak01zvz2eI/AAAAAAAAAqU/CcfFwLHfeTw/s400/birthdayboy_antoniosabatojr_2-29.jpg

*surely there are lighter spaniards and Italians, but I doubt there are lighter Algerians. Algerians, Berberb and Moroccans anyway are lighter than the other northern Africans.

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 02:49 PM

Yes that there's difference between the North and the South is clear, but in my opinion differences have been exaggerated. All the northern Italians I have met were, if not like southerns, not different from centrals and also in the features they have all the same facial features: latins/atlantids. In the deep South maybe people has a prevalent dinaric structure, but people from centre and from North look to me the same.
Southern Frenchs too, indeed they are latin and the backgroud of them is not different from the Northern Italian one. Central Italians at the beginning were a mix of Romans, Celts and Italics, so they have something in common with southern Frechs too. Where do you put centrals in this dispute?
Yes north Italians don't differ too much from central Italians, but i see differences from central-north Italians and the southern ones. Some maps of blondism-craniofacial structure-height(within Italy) clearly show a divide.

In the other hand sardinians are probably the shortest and the darkest of Italy but they are paleo-sardinians and the less mixed in Europe togheter with Basques. In short they are dark cause they are the same of 10.000 years ago.

Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccans have a light skin indeed, as it is shown in this map. The point is that the skinton doesn't make them white. Indeed just look at a Morroccan facial structure and at a Spanish facial structure. The differences are clear!

Algerian:
http://www.atour.com/news/international/images/20010703.jpg

Spanish:
http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc209/commentdog2/spanish-thursday/images/spanish-thursday-cute-guy.gif

Italian:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_78wgd5ujqrc/Sak01zvz2eI/AAAAAAAAAqU/CcfFwLHfeTw/s400/birthdayboy_antoniosabatojr_2-29.jpg

*surely there are lighter spaniards and Italians, but I doubt there are lighter Algerians. Algerians, Berberb and Moroccans anyway are lighter than the other northern Africans.

I agree with you here, despite some berbers have a light skin, craniofacial structures make them totally different from a dark european.
Zidane to make an example, could be never be considered more europoid than Gattuso to me. If Gattuso had an ancient greek helmet he would look like a Spartan.(let alone the "300" movie who portrayed Spartans as Vickings..lol)

http://www.oleole.com/media/main/images/blogs/images/group1/subgrp123/mrs-zidane_32064.jpg

http://www.homens-lindos.blogger.com.br/Ivan%20Gennaro%20Gattuso.jpg

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 02:56 PM

In any case the North Africa continue to have a darker skin tone, I personally know the area, a Moroccan with skin as clear as that of a Spanish is as common as a Nordic-looking Spanish, only about 25%.

As for the photos at least the first (feliz jueves) is a South American with features of mestizaje.

As I said at the time the maps of eye color, hair or skin are based on stereotypes and not science in 100% of cases.

a travel shows as I say, greetings!

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 02:59 PM

As I said at the time the maps of eye color, hair or skin are based on stereotypes and not science in 100% of cases.

The Biasutti and Livi's maps within Italy are not pseudo sciences though, rather a large surveys with lot of samples.

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 03:00 PM

I agree with you here, despite some berbers have a light skin, craniofacial structures make them totally different from a dark european.
Zidane to make an example, could be never be considered more europoid than Gattuso to me. If Gattuso had an ancient greek helmet he would look like a Spartan.(let alone the "300" movie who portrayed Spartans as Vickings..lol)

I am agree, head and face are very different and you can see (in person) at a glance without having any idea of craniometric, hair is also different, anyway the skin tone is diferent too, as I said only 25-30% of them can be as clear as a Spanish or Italian.

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 03:01 PM

As for the photos at least the first (feliz jueves) is a South American with features of mestizaje.

I agree, that guy is not a spaniard at all.

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 03:15 PM

I have seen in person these people in Morocco, look.

70%

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ozZClA9PSyI/SMbNXTqeqSI/AAAAAAAAAiA/4Ag8xq9DYjA/s400/Fotografia_archivo_bloguero_marroqui_Mohamed_Erraj i.jpg

http://www.orihueladigital.es/orihuela/deportes/carrera-policia-nacional-eroski-121107-1-ok.JPG

Of course you can find others with lighter skin and more European appearance, mixed descendants of Muslims expelled the majority Hispanic progenie (5 centurys ago)

about 15-25%

http://www.comibam.org/recursosmisioneros/fotoseimagenes/johnfries/images/Marruecos-Marroqui-Musulman-Hombre-vendiendo-agua.jpg

no more than 4% have blue eyes and some blond hair, majority kids.

I know very good this people.

I can not say with experience of other world regions although I suspect that many others are also wrong in that skin color map

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 03:23 PM

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 03:37 PM

Yes, i think the percentages you stated are right. People sometime idealize the berbers and moroccans too much.
I have also heard people saying that they are lighter then southern Europeans..:pound:

hehe Not, light-skinned Berbers are as common as the European Southern of Nordic appearance, 15-25%.

Ibericus

08-23-2010, 03:41 PM

Spanish:
http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc209/commentdog2/spanish-thursday/images/spanish-thursday-cute-guy.gif

While I agree with your point, This man doesn't look spanish and he is not spanish, he is Southamerican

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 03:51 PM

While I agree with your point, This man doesn't look spanish and he is not spanish, he is Southamerican

He's clearly not spanish Iberia, at most he could be a mestizo with distant spanish ancestry.

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 04:15 PM

South American and mestizo (mixed with amerindians,and have a lot of European blood) people of america, they maybe seem Europeans for their color but her face is another story

http://boricuaonline.com/sanlorenzo_chayanne.jpg

http://images.contactmusic.com/videoimages/sbmg/chayanne-refugio-de-amor-you-are-my-home.jpg

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 04:24 PM

South American and mestizo (mixed with amerindians) people of america, they maybe seem Europeans for their color but her face is another story

http://boricuaonline.com/sanlorenzo_chayanne.jpg

http://images.contactmusic.com/videoimages/sbmg/chayanne-refugio-de-amor-you-are-my-home.jpg

I find weird some people cannot make distinction between mestizo and southern europeans sometimes.
I mean, to a certain extent, every european is able to distinguish a blonde anglosaxon from a blonde slavic most of times(I'm not implying one wither than other)and clearly there are some craniofacial different structures.
A longer head for anglosaxons and a more rounded head for slavic one.
In the same time i could spot a mestizo feature even in the fairest south american, but many north europeans not and they sometime mistake them for southern europeans.
How is that possible?

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 07:52 PM

I find weird some people cannot make distinction between mestizo and southern europeans sometimes.
I mean, to a certain extent, every european is able to distinguish a blonde anglosaxon from a blonde slavic most of times(I'm not implying one wither than other)and clearly there are some craniofacial different structures.
A longer head for anglosaxons and a more rounded head for slavic one.
In the same time i could spot a mestizo feature even in the fairest south american, but many north europeans not and they sometime mistake them for southern europeans.
How is that possible?

It's because of Hollywood films and other stereotypes, because it is easier to use a South American mestizo in the role of a Spanish and any Arab in the role of Italian or Greek.

And if it appears France is all fields, vineyards and cafes, with houses and antique cars.

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 08:17 PM

It's because of Hollywood films and other stereotypes, because it is easier to use a South American mestizo in the role of a Spanish and any Arab in the role of Italian or Greek.

And if it appears France is all fields, vineyards and cafes, with houses and antique cars.

LOL

The worst representation of italians was made in this movie where Jennifer Lopez pretended to be an italian.:pound::lol00001::rotfl:
Not even the darkest italians has those slanted eyes and the flat nostrils.
http://opiniones.terra.es/tmp/swotti/cacheDGHLIHDLZGRPBMCGCGXHBM5LCG==RW50ZXJ0YWLUBWVUD C1NB3ZPZXM=/imgThe%20Wedding%20Planner2.jpg

http://laltraitaliablog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/jennifer_lopez_1.jpg

Foxy

08-23-2010, 09:06 PM

While I agree with your point, This man doesn't look spanish and he is not spanish, he is Southamerican

Oh, pardon. I digited "spanish guy" and it appeared this pic. Anyway you know what I meant: even the darkest Italian/Spaniard looks totally different from a maghrebin. Who confuses them is an ignorant and even blind.

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 09:20 PM

hehe Spanish guy is more like this

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_OMLYyLC8HTo/STcKn_dIjJI/AAAAAAAAUZY/IJING109zOc/s400/IkerCasillas09.jpg

http://www.cronaldomadrid.com/wp-content/uploads//david-villa.jpg

http://img.blogdeblogs.com/altaspulsaciones/uploads/2009/08/valencias-david-villa-001.jpg

Debaser11

08-23-2010, 09:30 PM

Ibericus

08-23-2010, 09:31 PM

Oh, pardon. I digited "spanish guy" and it appeared this pic. Anyway you know what I meant: even the darkest Italian/Spaniard looks totally different from a maghrebin. Who confuses them is an ignorant and even blind.
Yes, because in America they call Spanish to everyone who comes from a spanish-speaking country, thus if you google "spanish guy" you'll find more southamericans than real spanish (aka Spaniards)

Pallantides

08-23-2010, 09:32 PM

What makes the anthroplogy of Italy, so more complex than other areas in Europe? :confused:

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 09:41 PM

What makes the anthroplogy of Italy, so more complex than other areas in Europe? :confused:

Well, Finns and Italians are Europe's most diverse, according to genetics.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?ex=1376452800&en=f4641ba4084d7660&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 09:52 PM

The Italian skin tone thing is pretty fascinating to me. My best friend growing up had mother who looked very much like a Naples woman, (In other words, southern). She looked very dark. Not just like "ohh, she's less pasty than the North." I'm mean, basically Sicilian. Think Al Pacino. I'm sure many would think she had Hispanic admixture in her. Because these people were quite close to us, I knew my friend's mother's extended family as well and met them on numerous occasions. Her mother (my friend's grandmother) was one of the fairest women I have ever seen and even had some reddish hair. My friend's mother's siblings were all also MUCH more fairer than she was. So she was kind of the odd one out. I mean, they didn't even look like siblings and I can remember being confused by their lack of similarity as a kid. I never saw her father (my friend's maternal grandfather) so it's possible that's where the swarthiness in my friend's mom came from. I'm as certain as a person can be in my position that she was not adopted.

Now here's where it gets even more interesting to me. This woman who looks very exotic/southern Italian/Sicilian marries a man who is even more darker looking than her. He has an Anglo last name but looks Sicilian or borderline Mexican/Spanish. As with my friend's mother, my family and his family also go way back. As a boy, I even met this man's mother too (so this would be my friend's paternal grandmother). I recall this woman also being fair relative to her son (who I'm also as certain as one can be in my position that he was not adopted). I never met my friend's paternal grandfather.

Those those two people get married and have kids (one of whom becomes my best friend growing up). All three of their kids are MUCH more fair than their parents. My friend was unable to tan and had rosy cheeks in cold weather while I could tan pretty well even though my genes came from much lighter parents with mostly northern European features. My friend had two siblings. The boy was just as fair as him. These two would pass as British Isles stock. The girl was maybe slightly darker but would still easily pass as a northern Italian.

My parents think I'm nuts for even noticing. But I'm more racially conscious than they are. I'm sure my parents think most Italians look like Robert DeNiro. That's just what Americans are exposed to. Anyways, that family is the most phenotypically perplexing family I know. Just thought I'd share an anecdote since I'm way out of my depth when touching anthropology.

I believe you and sometimes me too think that the souther italians' skin tone is a mistery.
I know two sicilian girls. One is dark as the stereotypical sicilian of the movies, and her sister could be mistaken for Sharone Stone. Any cheating by their mother happened so they are really sisters.
Sometimes i think that southern italian skin tone is something that has really to do with generation after generation under the sun.(I know it's not like this but it's not the first time it happened to ear an anecdote like the one you told us.)

P.s
Is Al Pacino really that dark?
Compare him to Colin Farrel to make an example(or are they both dark?:D):
http://www.unoriginal.co.uk/gallery/plasticsurgery/al_pacino.gif
http://www.livingtv.co.uk/images/colin-farrell-431x400.jpg

Pallantides

08-23-2010, 09:52 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?ex=1376452800&en=f4641ba4084d7660&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg

I hate how they only have sampled Western Norwegians, wich makes Norway appear closer to the UK than Sweden. :grumpy:

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 09:55 PM

Well, Finns and Italians are Europe's most diverse, according to genetics.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?ex=1376452800&en=f4641ba4084d7660&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

Dude sometimes i really don't get you.
You seem like a provocative person in some occasions with your maps and links.

That map is crap again.
Iberia posted lot of maps and italians are not at all the most diverse if you mean not completely europeans.
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3483/fetchobjectactionuriinf.png

http://www.golivewire.com/forums/img.cgi?i=59841

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 09:56 PM

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 10:06 PM

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg

I hate how they only have sampled Western Norwegians, wich makes Norway appear closer to the UK than Sweden. :grumpy:

Dude sometimes i really don't get you.
You seem like a provocative person in some occasions with your maps and links.

That map is crap again.
Iberia posted lot of maps and italians are not at all the most diverse if you mean not completely europeans.

This map is not provocative, the small difference you see in the Italians because they have taken samples of Atlantic Europe, and less than central-eastern.
do not know if I understand, even taking samples of the Atlantic countries , italians are related.

Finland is the only remote extremity in that map and of course they are related to the remaining European, I think her only flaw is the presentation that has a bit confusing.

but this words explaining the map I think that sums it all

"All the populations are quite similar"

Pallantides

08-23-2010, 10:17 PM

It would have been better if they had tested East Norwegians than samples from an area in West Norway that have had a large historical population of Dutch and Scottish immigrants, if the sample had been from eastern Norway and not west, I'm sure Norway would cluster with Sweden and not appear like pseudo-Celts. :)

Finland is the only remote extremity in that map
If Sardinians and Basques were included they too would be outliners.

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 10:20 PM

San galgano:

anyway sorry if you think is evil, is the first one I saw on google and modern with university references

there was no provocation attempt on my part, We can forget that map or if you want you can tell me what you see wrong or unusual, without misunderstandings.

Debaser11

08-23-2010, 10:23 PM

P.s
Is Al Pacino really that dark?
Compare him to Colin Farrel to make an example(or are they both dark?:D):
http://www.unoriginal.co.uk/gallery/plasticsurgery/al_pacino.gif
http://www.livingtv.co.uk/images/colin-farrell-431x400.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/7/78/TheGodfatherPartII1974.jpg

That's closer to what I had in mind. You can't trust his appearance now. He's had so much cosmetic work done as he's gotten older.

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 10:23 PM

It would have been better if they had tested East Norwegians than samples from an area in West Norway that have had a large historical population of Dutch and Scottish immigrants, if the sample had been from eastern Norway and not west, I'm sure Norway would cluster with Sweden and not appear like pseudo-Celts. :)

If Sardinians and Basques were included they too would be outliners.

I agree on the first.

As for the Basque legend there is no scientific basis, they are quite similar to other Spanish.

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 10:29 PM

This map is not provocative, the small difference you see in the Italians because they have taken samples of Atlantic Europe, and less than central-eastern.
do not know if I understand, even taking samples of the Atlantic countries , italians are related.

Finland is the only remote extremity in that map and of course they are related to the remaining European, I think her only flaw is the presentation that has a bit confusing.

but this words explaining the map I think that sums it all

"All the populations are quite similar"

Finnish appear a bit outliers because they have a bit more asian dna, but in the autosomal tests italians don't show any non caucasian admixture though.

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/5619/li2008structure.png

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 10:33 PM

Finnish appear a bit outliers because they have a bit more asian dna, but in the autosomal tests italians don't show any non caucasian admixture though.

But look at the Italians, italians are related with close countries, including Spanish.

perhaps the way they are sorted look bad, perhaps by not including the Greeks?

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 10:41 PM

But look at the Italians, italians are related with close countries, including Spanish.

perhaps the way they are sorted look bad, perhaps by not including the Greeks?

That map to me is a fake because it shows southern Italians completely disconnected from Greeks(where many maps show the opposite) and north and central italians as a weird appendix with no connections with spaniards or french(where in 23andme is usual like that).

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 10:49 PM

That map to me is a fake because it shows southern Italians completely disconnected from Greeks(where many maps show the opposite) and north and central italians as a weird appendix with no connections with spaniards or french(where in 23andme is usual like that).

EL is greece, right? perhaps the Italian samples were from Central and northern and not one persons from south ¿? look the points, is it possible?

I think the way they have arranged the circles is very sensitive, such as the Finns, being so far away, just because have some Asian blood.

Pallantides

08-23-2010, 10:59 PM

I agree on the first.

As for the Basque legend there is no scientific basis, they are quite similar to other Spanish.

23andMe's Basque sample seem to be outliners compared to other Europeans:
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/stuff/23andmeEurope.png

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 11:04 PM

23andMe's Basque sample seem to be outliners compared to other Europeans:
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/stuff/23andmeEurope.png

show me who supports the study, and the year, recent studies indicate that basques are similar to other Spanish.

Studies before 2004 were huge mistakes.

about the Basque country and nationalist legends and myths, in google you'll find that they discovered America with their whaling ships in the tenth centur, not is a joke.

Pallantides

08-23-2010, 11:06 PM

https://www.23andme.com

23andMe is DNA company and I think they are up to date on the newest research, I'm sure you can email them about their samples and reference populations if you want.:)

Gatillo

08-23-2010, 11:19 PM

https://www.23andme.com

23andMe is DNA company and I think they are up to date on the newest research, I'm sure you can email them about their samples and reference populations if you want.:)

I see, is a private company, the truth I prefer the studies supported by universities risking the prestige.

If you are interested in serious studies with Oxford and the University of Barcelona, I can send it by private.

Basques only differ in that they have never been invaded by Romans, Goths, ect ...and are genetically pure, pure old Iberians.

San Galgano

08-23-2010, 11:25 PM

http://www.imfdb.org/images/7/78/TheGodfatherPartII1974.jpg

That's closer to what I had in mind. You can't trust his appearance now. He's had so much cosmetic work done as he's gotten older.

Okay Debaser, he was not the fairest of the universe, but mind that in the Godfather and Scarface he had lot of make up too.
Here in Serpico seems more natural and he doesn't appear so different from Colin Farrell, Sean Connery or George Clooney:
http://www.kathirvel.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/al_pacino_serpico.jpg
http://www.virginmedia.com/images/george-clooney.jpg

Debaser11

08-23-2010, 11:44 PM

Okay Debaser, he was not the fairest of the universe, but mind that in the Godfather and Scarface he had lot of make up too.

Well, in that Godfather II photo is how my friend's mom looks. And his father was even darker and looked almost Amerindian. Yet my friend could be Welsh or something. And he's fully grown so it's not like his swarthy genes are lying dormant.

But yeah, Pacino might have just been wearing heavy make-up like you mentioned. When I think of Dog Day Afternoon, I remember him being very fair. But he's also dark in Scent of a Woman, Devil's Advocate, Ocean's Twelve (or is it Thirteen?), and Donnie Brasco. So if he goes "dark face," he does it an awful lot.

manu

08-24-2010, 12:05 AM

I imagine the average italian to be like this colourwise but I guess the rest of world wouldn't agree with me.

http://www.settemuse.it/foto_sfondi_attori/foto_stefano_accorsi/stefano_accorsi_002.jpg

San Galgano

08-24-2010, 12:11 AM

Well, in that Godfather II photo is how my friend's mom looks. And his father was even darker and looked almost Amerindian. Yet my friend could be Welsh or something. And he's fully grown so it's not like his swarthy genes are lying dormant.

Got it. Well the important is that those genes are not dominant then.

But yeah, Pacino might have just been wearing heavy make-up like you mentioned. When I think of Dog Day Afternoon, I remember him being very fair. But he's also dark in Scent of a Woman, Devil's Advocate, Ocean's Twelve (or is it Thirteen?), and Donnie Brasco. So if he goes "dark face," he does it an awful lot.

What i wanted to say is that sometimes dark phenotypes appear also in non-mediterranean people but the important is that their facial structures, as in the case of Al Pacino, have nothing non-caucasoid.

San Galgano

08-24-2010, 12:15 AM

I imagine the average italian to be like this colourwise but I guess the rest of world wouldn't agree with me.

http://www.settemuse.it/foto_sfondi_attori/foto_stefano_accorsi/stefano_accorsi_002.jpg

I agree with you and i would like to post a typical face from my place too that it seems alpinoid like Stefano Accorsi:

http://www.cinematografo.it/cinematografo_new/allegati/12572/leonardo_pieraccioni.jpg

Metanthropos

08-25-2010, 08:07 PM

In German literature Northern Italy was seen as being more Alpinoid (and Northern related), Southern Italy as a basically more Gracilmediterranid area, but I'm currently not at home, I might add some quotations probably...

It's a pity German literature hasn't received on the web the same treatment as Coon.

Agrippa

08-25-2010, 08:22 PM

It's a pity German literature hasn't received on the web the same treatment as Coon.

That's right, it is both because of the negative connotation and propaganda after World War 2 as well as the language barrier obviously.

Here some images from the relatively newer work of "Rassengeschichte der Menschheit", the data should be known, some images of Italians from different regions added.

Dolichomorph from Sardinia, Puglia (Mediterranoid), depigmented brachycephalic Latium (Alpinoid), planoccipital Marche (Dinaroid).
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5646&stc=1&d=1282767231

Dolichomorphs from Calabria, Latium, Sicily (Mediterranoid) - the one from Calabria was considered by R. Knussmann in his work from 1996 as a typical Gracilmediterranid:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5647&stc=1&d=1282767231

Two maps added from the same volume.

Ibericus

08-25-2010, 08:40 PM

That's right, it is both because of the negative connotation and propaganda after World War 2 as well as the language barrier obviously.

Here some images from the relatively newer work of "Rassengeschichte der Menschheit", the data should be known, some images of Italians from different regions added.

Dolichomorph from Sardinia, Puglia (Mediterranoid), depigmented brachycephalic Latium (Alpinoid), planoccipital Marche (Dinaroid).
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5646&stc=1&d=1282767231

Dolichomorphs from Calabria, Latium, Sicily (Mediterranoid) - the one from Calabria was considered by R. Knussmann in his work from 1996 as a typical Gracilmediterranid:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5647&stc=1&d=1282767231

Two maps added from the same volume.
LOL, the two "mediterranoids" have little in common....

Metanthropos

08-25-2010, 08:47 PM

LOL, the two "mediterranoids" have little in common....

Well they are considered Mediterranoids in that they are dark dolichomorphs... even if we haven't got a profile picture.

Foxy

08-26-2010, 07:31 AM

The Italian skin tone thing is pretty fascinating to me. My best friend growing up had a mother who looked very much like a Naples woman. (In other words, southern.) She looked very dark. Not just like "ohh, she's less pasty than the North." I'm mean, basically Sicilian. Think Al Pacino. I'm sure many would think she had Hispanic admixture in her. Because these people were quite close to us, I knew my friend's mother's extended family as well and met them on numerous occasions. Her mother (my friend's grandmother) was one of the fairest women I have ever seen and even had some reddish hair. My friend's mother's siblings were all also MUCH more fairer than she was. So she was kind of the odd one out. I mean, they didn't even look like siblings and I can remember being confused by their lack of similarity as a kid. I never saw her father (my friend's maternal grandfather) so it's possible that's where the swarthiness in my friend's mom came from. I'm as certain as a person can be in my position that she was not adopted.

Now here's where it gets even more interesting to me. This woman who looks very exotic/southern Italian/Sicilian marries a man who is even more darker looking than her. He has an Anglo last name but looks Sicilian or borderline Mexican/Spanish. As with my friend's mother, my family and his family also go way back. As a boy, I even met this man's mother too (so this would be my friend's paternal grandmother). I recall this woman also being fair relative to her son (who I'm also as certain as one can be in my position that he was not adopted). I never met my friend's paternal grandfather.

So these two people get married and have kids (one of whom becomes my best friend growing up). All three of their kids are MUCH more fair than their parents. My friend was unable to tan and had rosy cheeks in cold weather while I could tan pretty well even though my genes came from much lighter parents with mostly northern European features. My friend had two siblings--a brother and a sister. The brother was just as fair as him. My friend and his brother would pass as British Isles stock. The sister was maybe slightly darker (and could maybe even tan some) but would still easily pass as a northern Italian from what I've seen in this thread.

No guy, this is not strange at all and you have to be appreciated for your interest and not biased, as at least you don't focus only on stereotypes. Cases like this one are not rare. I have a very related friend who's from Northern Latium. Her father was brunette with brown eyes and her mother has black hair (now dyed in blonde) and blue-grey eyes. My friend is born brunette with brown-amber eyes, her little sister golden blond with blue-grey eyes. You have to see the recessiveness of the ancestors' genes. Many Italians have at least an ancestor with light traits (in the hair or in the eyes and even in the skin).
Australian government, during the "Stolen generation" period, wanted to remove all the young aborigines with light skin or mixed with Europeans and integrate them in the white community, and force them to inter-marriage with whites until their dark genes would be virtually deleted without the risk that two people of white appearance could produce a black son. For deleting recesseive genes you need a lot of generations. As Italians are all very mixed (becouse of historical facts), when two Italians mix you never know all the genetic ancestry of them.
An other exemple: a cousin of my bf is blue eyed, blonde haired (she looks English) while both her parents and her sister have brown and black hair and dark eyes.

What makes the anthroplogy of Italy, so more complex than other areas in Europe? :confused:

I will post a map of all the invasions that Italy received from pre-history to today. But I need 2 hours. :D

Dolichomorph from Sardinia, Puglia (Mediterranoid), depigmented brachycephalic Latium (Alpinoid), planoccipital Marche (Dinaroid).
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5646&stc=1&d=1282767231

The last looks like my father oncle and most members of my father family have similar features and are tall. This confirm my supposition that I was not a typical mediterranean but have dinaric ancestry. But after all Abruzzo is just on the southern border of Marche.