Phenotype doesn't matter, what matters is what genetics tell us.

[Sikeliot]

Enough arguing about Southern European phenotypes, who is lighter vs darker. We have PLENTY of genetic data and it is completely unambiguous.

It doesn't matter if northern Italians are lighter than Iberians, they plot south of Iberians on PCA plots and have more Near Eastern ancestry than them, even the blondest and most Germanic looking people in northern Italy. In fact, they also have more Near Eastern DNA than do the southern French, the Croats, Serbians, and Bosnians.

Southern Italians, especially Calabria, Sicily, and Campania are halfway genetically between Iberia and the Levant. Period. Whether they look it or not. They are peripheral Europeans genetically.

Greeks from the north and center of their country especially, but even Peloponnesians, are genetically closer to other Balkan people than to Sicilians and southern Italians. On a north-south basis, they are on par with Tuscans, NOT Calabrese. Deal with it.

Cypriots are Hellenized Near Easterners, and their Greek ancestry is minimal. They lack the NE European element present in all other Greeks. Same with Pontians, they are a native Caucasus people and are not genetically Greek.

Madeiran Portuguese have minor Sub-Saharan ancestry. Deal with it. It does not show because it is too minor to have an impact. They are like some white southerners in the US, they are definitely "white" but not all their ancestors were.

THESE ARE THE GENETIC FACTS, BACKED BY SCIENCE. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU AGREE WITH THEM OR NOT. JUST STOP ARGUING ABOUT STUPID SHIT. Thank you.

[Grab the Gauge]

It's not enough to not have African admixture. You need to have some Mongoloid genes infused to get that maximal performance.

[Casandrinos]

using 23andme as a gospel again ?


You won't tell people what to take for granted, who are you?

[XvThomas_LysergicV]

Fuck ancestry and haplogroups,etc. In the real world phenotype is only thing that matters.

[Linebacker]

Genetics usually co-relate with appearance,so there goes this whole thread.

People who have similar genetics also look similar in appearance.

[Ylla]

Youve said this over 9000 times.

[Cristiano viejo]

I think the opposite, phenotypes are what matter (if you dont score high figures of non-white blood of course, for example more than 1-2%, no more).

[Blake]

Not true.

[Anthropologique]

using 23andme as a gospel again ?


You won't tell people what to take for granted, who are you?

He's using genetic studies that most informed people know about. Also, Eurogenes and McDonald. Certain things are facts.

[Anthropologique]

Genetics usually co-relate with appearance,so there goes this whole thread.

People who have similar genetics also look similar in appearance.

Of course. Autosomal DNA is the prime determinant of phenotype. That and environmental adaptation.

[Anthropologique]

Enough arguing about Southern European phenotypes, who is lighter vs darker. We have PLENTY of genetic data and it is completely unambiguous.

It doesn't matter if northern Italians are lighter than Iberians, they plot south of Iberians on PCA plots and have more Near Eastern ancestry than them, even the blondest and most Germanic looking people in northern Italy. In fact, they also have more Near Eastern DNA than do the southern French, the Croats, Serbians, and Bosnians.

Southern Italians, especially Calabria, Sicily, and Campania are halfway genetically between Iberia and the Levant. Period. Whether they look it or not. They are peripheral Europeans genetically.

Greeks from the north and center of their country especially, but even Peloponnesians, are genetically closer to other Balkan people than to Sicilians and southern Italians. On a north-south basis, they are on par with Tuscans, NOT Calabrese. Deal with it.

Cypriots are Hellenized Near Easterners, and their Greek ancestry is minimal. They lack the NE European element present in all other Greeks. Same with Pontians, they are a native Caucasus people and are not genetically Greek.

Madeiran Portuguese have minor Sub-Saharan ancestry. Deal with it. It does not show because it is too minor to have an impact. They are like some white southerners in the US, they are definitely "white" but not all their ancestors were.

THESE ARE THE GENETIC FACTS, BACKED BY SCIENCE. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU AGREE WITH THEM OR NOT. JUST STOP ARGUING ABOUT STUPID SHIT. Thank you.

The truth is that even Iberians, on average, are probably lighter than N. Italians, at least in skin tone. The Candilli (2012, 2013) measured Porto Portuguese as considerably lighter in skin tone and hair than central Italians. The Italians were only moderately lighter in eye shades.

There is significant correlation between autosomal DNA scores and phenotype.

[Anthropologique]

Not true.


Tell that to the geneticists at places like MIT, Johns Hopkins, University of Chicago, Brown, Oxford, Harvard ... You are plain nonsensical.

[Anthropologique]

^^

Blake, please, for your safety, go visit a good psychiatrist. Are you also a climate change denier? Man, you are in deep denial.

[Sikeliot]

What I am saying is that in the end when determining who people truly are, genes and not appearance matter more. An octoroon from Louisiana who looks like they could be fully British or French is still 1/8 African and is not a full European for instance.

[Sikeliot]

Genetics usually co-relate with appearance,so there goes this whole thread.

With the exception of North Italians and Iberians (IMO the former are lighter and look more North European influenced), the rest of my examples I genuinely believe correlate with appearance.

[Blake]

The truth is that even Iberians, on average, are probably lighter than N. Italians, at least in skin tone. The Candilli (2012, 2013) measured Porto Portuguese as considerably lighter in skin tone and hair than central Italians. The Italians were only moderately lighter in eye shades.

There is significant correlation between autosomal DNA scores and phenotype.

In your head. Studies are everywhere and for everyone, moron. I have several of them, but I will not go out saying that the Italians are German and Portuguese are even clearer than Poles like a sucker. Portuguese and Spaniards more darker and the majority tanned a lot, becoming like a Cape Verdean.

http://fifawallpapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Portugal-3.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Portuguese and Spaniards more darker and the majority tanned a lot, becoming like a Cape Verdean.

This is just ridiculous. Portuguese people who look typically Cape Verdean are not fully Portuguese, unless you are comparing them to a Cape Verdean of nearly full Portuguese descent in which case the comparison no longer makes sense.

[Blake]

^^

Blake, please, for your safety, go visit a good psychiatrist. Are you also a climate change denier? Man, you are in deep denial.

Verily I say because Affirmation is lying in several points. I guess you could go to the psychiatrist before than me after all. "also a climate change"....

[Bagot]

The truth is that even Iberians, on average, are probably lighter than N. Italians, at least in skin tone. The Candilli (2012, 2013) measured Porto Portuguese as considerably lighter in skin tone and hair than central Italians. The Italians were only moderately lighter in eye shades.

There is significant correlation between autosomal DNA scores and phenotype.

More than a truth, it's your desperate desire.

[Bagot]

With the exception of North Italians and Iberians (IMO the former are lighter and look more North European influenced), the rest of my examples I genuinely believe correlate with appearance.

Don't say that, Sikeliot. Iberians here desperately need to think to be lighter than them and being all almost British-looking.

[Sikeliot]

Don't say that, Sikeliot. Iberians here desperately need to think to be lighter than them and being all almost British-looking.

Their features do often look like dark Brits or French, but a subset of them have a look shared with North Africans (heavily Berid types, South Med, etc.) so I would say Iberians look like a combination of 75% French, 25% North African. I do not see much resemblance to Italians and Greeks except for in some coastal Spaniards.

North Italians to me look Central European.

But my point is, the genetics say northern Italians have more Near Eastern influence than Iberians, it is just invisible in their looks.

[Blake]

This is just ridiculous. Portuguese people who look typically Cape Verdean are not fully Portuguese, unless you are comparing them to a Cape Verdean of nearly full Portuguese descent in which case the comparison no longer makes sense.

After tanned, here in Brazil we see it, they are confused with Cape Verde in relation to dark skin, they do not flake off they just get as dark as possible. Skin adaptation for the most power. A North Italian can not get as tanned as well naturally.

[Anthropologique]

Don't say that, Sikeliot. Iberians here desperately need to think to be lighter than them and being all almost British-looking.

Nonsense. Scientific facts speak for themselves. The idiot Blake actually thinks Cape Verdeans are indigenous Portuguese.

[Sikeliot]

After tanned, here in Brazil we see it, they are confused with Cape Verde in relation to dark skin, they do not flake off they just get as dark as possible. Skin adaptation for the most power. A North Italian can not get as tanned as well naturally.

Because the people calling themselves Portuguese in Brazil are colonial Brazilians with African descent mixed in somewhere who identify as Portuguese...

[Anthropologique]

After tanned, here in Brazil we see it, they are confused with Cape Verde in relation to dark skin, they do not flake off they just get as dark as possible. Skin adaptation for the most power. A North Italian can not get as tanned as well naturally.

LMAO!! Half the people in Brazil are mixed. You don't even know who is full white many times. You need help in the worst way.

[Anthropologique]

Because the people calling themselves Portuguese in Brazil are colonial Brazilians with African descent mixed in somewhere who identify as Portuguese...

I can't believe anyone could be so stupid. He lives in an alternative universe.

[Blake]

Because the people calling themselves Portuguese in Brazil are colonial Brazilians with African descent mixed in somewhere who identify as Portuguese...

Not true really, I think you're delusional. Florianopolis has a lot of Portugueses (born in Portugal) and they are exactly the same or even more dark and can support a fucking sunstroke.

[Blake]

LMAO!! Half the people in Brazil are mixed. You don't even know who is full white many times. You need help in the worst way.

Brazil has 400000 portugueses even now. LOL Inform yourself.

[Sikeliot]

Not true really, I think you're delusional. Florianopolis has a lot of Portugueses (born in Portugal) and they are exactly the same or even more dark and can support a fucking sunstroke.

Are they from Madeira? If so, there is minor African influence there...

[Anthropologique]

Not true really, I think you're delusional. Florianopolis has a lot of Portugueses (born in Portugal) and they are exactly the same or even more dark and can support a fucking sunstroke.

LMAO! A Brazilian says that! Hey, guess who also tans very well: the Swedes.

[Blake]

Are they from Madeira? If so, there is minor African influence there...

Not Madeira at all. Lisbon, North Portugal... many Spaniards from any place.

[Anthropologique]

You don't even know who is really native Portuguese in Brazil. Blake, the person who thinks N. Italians look like Germans. Just STFU already!

[Anthropologique]

Not Madeira at all. Lisbon, North Portugal... many Spaniards from any place.

People in Lisbon can come from anywhere, in Portugal and outside. Doesn't mean shit! Again, Swedes tan very well, what does that make them? You are just a friggin hateful lunatic - no objectivity whatsoever.

[Sikeliot]

Is he seriously suggesting native Portuguese people look mixed with black African ?!

[Blake]

You don't even know who is really native Portuguese in Brazil. Blake, the person who thinks N. Italians look like Germans. Just STFU already!

Although maybe I think you would not know recognize the difference from a British to an American or Australian even if he opens his mouth to say something. So I think you're out of context and delirious. Do I think that Northern Italians are German, do you think the Portuguese are Lapland.

[Blake]

Is he seriously suggesting native Portuguese people look mixed with black African ?!

I said they can tanned as a Cape Verdean in other words they can be really very dark without flake off. Skin adaptation, tanned a lot.

[Anthropologique]

Is he seriously suggesting native Portuguese people look mixed with black African ?!

A Brazilian saying that no less. He's another insecure Brazilian creating The Other to make him feel better about himself.

I could post a million group pictures of indigenous Portugal in Portugal and he would say they were cherry picked. A nut job who ignores science ...

[Anthropologique]

I said they can tanned as a Cape Verdean in other words they can be very dark without flake off. Skin adaptation.

So what about the Swedes? LMAO!!

[Sikeliot]

I said they can tanned as a Cape Verdean in other words they can be really very dark without flake off. Skin adaptation, tanned a lot.

Ok but the Cape Verdeans they look like to you are those who are mostly Portuguese anyway..

[Bagot]

Their features do often look like dark Brits or French, but a subset of them have a look shared with North Africans (heavily Berid types, South Med, etc.) so I would say Iberians look like a combination of 75% French, 25% North African. I do not see much resemblance to Italians and Greeks except for in some coastal Spaniards.

North Italians to me look Central European.

But my point is, the genetics say northern Italians have more Near Eastern influence than Iberians, it is just invisible in their looks.

Phenotypes aren't strictly related to genetics IMO, because those components (north Euro, Near Eastern...) are ancient and not recent. You know, there may be siblings with same autosomal DNA but very different phenotypes.

[Blake]

A Brazilian saying that no less. He's another insecure Brazilian creating The Other to make him feel better about himself.

I could post a million group pictures of indigenous Portugal in Portugal and he would say they were cherry picked. A nut job who ignores science ...

You are out of the ordinary, I can not have a conversation with someone possessed by emotions. Try to at least put the link the next time before belching shit, all I ask.

[Blake]

So what about the Swedes? LMAO!!

Sweden? This kid is delusional. How old are you?

[Sikeliot]

Some Portuguese do look really exotic, yes. But the darkest/most exotic otherwise would be Maltese, southern Italians, and Sicilians. I do not count Cypriots. I think Spaniards are slightly lighter than Portuguese with less MENA influence.

[Blake]

Some Portuguese do look really exotic, yes. But the darkest/most exotic otherwise would be Maltese, southern Italians, and Sicilians. I do not count Cypriots. I think Spaniards are slightly lighter than Portuguese with less MENA influence.

You really have some problems with Southern Italians, right? It's not good, men.

[Ibericus]

I also prefer genetics. Phenotype can be misleading. You can have a brother who is swarthy and the other blonde, and they are genetically the same.
You can mix with a light-blonde Pakistani, but your son can look like a full brown average Paki, because his genetics are the same as his countrymen. That's how genetics work.
So at the end, genetics is what tells you the most about a population, it gives you the whole picture.

[Casandrinos]

He's using genetic studies that most informed people know about. Also, Eurogenes and McDonald. Certain things are facts.

All those studies are on amateur levels, there are flows in their methodology that some people can't recognize.

Let alone the further misinterpretation

[Anthropologique]

You are out of the ordinary, I can not have a conversation with someone possessed by emotions. Try to at least put the link the next time before belching shit, all I ask.

Do you believe in science? More specifically, do you believe in genetic science?

[curupira]

They are peripheral Europeans genetically.

Don't forget core Europeans before the arrival of Indo Europeans (steppe men from Russia) would score like this (a Neolithic sample from Stuttgart), they were shifted towards the Near East:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?161349-Gedmatch-results-of-a-Neolithic-man-from-Stuttgart-Germany&highlight=Stuttgart

[Blake]

Do you believe in science? More specifically, do you believe in genetic science?

You're making me nervous, did you have memory problems? Check my previous posts and find the answer.

[curupira]

In short, genetic profile varies not only in space but also, and quite importantly, in time. The core European of today is different from the core European of the Neolithic era, who in turn was different from the core European of the hunter gatherer period. Just to show to you how relative the notions of "core" and "peripheral" are. Sardinians of today are peripheral in relation to the core European of today but mainstream in relation to the core European of the Neolithic era.

With the sequence of studies on ancient European remains, our understanding of the peopling of Europe has increased substantially. Initially Europe had Hunter Gatherers, on a West to East Axis (Mesolithic and before). Then came the Neolithic, which meant a pull towards the Near East. What exactly was this component is something still to be more investigated. We already know there was significant mtDNA and yDNA change, as well as autosomal change. The autosomal meant a pull towards the Near East. Then came the steppe invasion, which also brought R1b/R1a and the autosomal make-up of the Yamnayans (Eastern Hunter Gatherer + Neolithic, their own type of Near Eastern pull, Armenians being a proxy for that). With the steppe invasion, the WHG+EEF population of Europe was pulled, depending on the degree of Yamnaya input, towards the East.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2cdibte.png
http://i59.tinypic.com/71tcw1.png

[Sikeliot]

You really have some problems with Southern Italians, right? It's not good, men.

I am half southern Italian. If what I am saying indicates I have a problem with them, then what you are saying indicates you have a problem with the Portuguese.

[Anthropologique]

I am half southern Italian. If what I am saying indicates I have a problem with them, then what you are saying indicates you have a problem with the Portuguese.


He likely has a problem with non-German looking Italians. LOL.

[Sikeliot]

He is Brasileiro, the formerly banned troll. So he is now banned.

[Anthropologique]

He is Brasileiro, the formerly banned troll. So he is now banned.

Another nut job bites the dust.

[Casandrinos]

What I am saying is that in the end when determining who people truly are, genes and not appearance matter more. An octoroon from Louisiana who looks like they could be fully British or French is still 1/8 African and is not a full European for instance.

But if the Octoroon marries a fully genetically ''white'' lady their offspring will come out as 1% African and their offspring's offspring as 0-0,1%African

So this offspring will still be 1/32 African but it won't show neither in genes nor in phenotype.

By your logic there's no reason for this offspring to recognize his existing African ancestry as it's genetically noise

there's a paradox here

[Sikeliot]

But if the Octoroon marries a fully genetically ''white'' lady their offspring will come out as 1% African and their offspring's offspring as 0-0,1%African

So this offspring will still be 1/32 African but it won't show neither in genes nor in phenotype.

By your logic there's no reason for this offspring to recognize his existing African ancestry as it's genetically noise


I recognize mine actually. But that is because it is visible in some distant relatives and family photos.

[Casandrinos]

I recognize mine actually. But that is because it is visible in some distant relatives and family photos.

So you're going by phenotype now?

[Sikeliot]

So you're going by phenotype now?

It is different when people are mixed race. Anyway if the African genes are there even if they do not show, then they're still there... so it is consistent with my original point actually.

[Longbowman]

It's not enough to not have African admixture. You need to have some Mongoloid genes infused to get that maximal performance.

Khazar supremacy?

[Faklon]

Some genetics for example

http://oi61.tinypic.com/246upzn.jpg

https://d1o50x50snmhul.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/dn27850-1_800.jpg

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQc2ZwZmNCcG1BdGs/view

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-78pM7Poo1Yw/U4uI2rkf5bI/AAAAAAAAJnQ/qYruhxFj-Uw/s1600/ng.2991-F1.jpg

http://oi59.tinypic.com/34s34o0.jpg

http://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Red_hair_map.jpg

Neolithic Slayerid

http://i.imgur.com/mteB9IZ.jpg

[Casandrinos]

It is different when people are mixed race. Anyway if the African genes are there even if they do not show, then they're still there... so it is consistent with my original point actually.

They are there but on noise levels, like 0,1%

so you would still identify as part African? And what prevents you from identifying with an admixture of 0,000000001% if ''it's still there''

[Sikeliot]

They are there but on noise levels, like 0,1%

so you would still identify as part African? And what prevents you from identifying with an admixture of 0,000000001% if ''it's still there''


When you can tell which relatives it is from it is recent enough to identify with but of course I still identify as a white person even with there being a traceable African relative.

[Casandrinos]

When you can tell which relatives it is from it is recent enough to identify with but of course I still identify as a white person even with there being a traceable African relative.

So what matters is to be aware of it irl, to have an impact in yourself when you look at the pictures.

If you don't know it , it doesn't exist. But you can search it with genetics....

[Damião de Góis]

Don't say that, Sikeliot. Iberians here desperately need to think to be lighter than them and being all almost British-looking.

"Iberians here"? Iberians here post as much about italians as they do about tunisians. We are the imaginary enemies of italians, it's funny.

[safinator]

Some genetics for example

http://oi61.tinypic.com/246upzn.jpg

https://d1o50x50snmhul.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/dn27850-1_800.jpg

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQc2ZwZmNCcG1BdGs/view

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-78pM7Poo1Yw/U4uI2rkf5bI/AAAAAAAAJnQ/qYruhxFj-Uw/s1600/ng.2991-F1.jpg

http://oi59.tinypic.com/34s34o0.jpg

http://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Red_hair_map.jpg

Neolithic Slayerid

http://i.imgur.com/mteB9IZ.jpg

Neolithic level of Spaniards is more than that of Greeks according to first chart.

[Journeyman26]

Ugh it's easy for people to misunderstand genetics though. "MENA genes" just mean SNPs that are more common in middle easterners than anywhere else, it doesnt mean they aren't present anywhere else, and doesn't necessarily mean admixture. Every nation has a huge amount of variability, and a ton of it get mis-classified. Plus, many people have made up their minds anyway regardless of what tests say. As a Tuscan/Greek I scored 0.1% MENA on 23andMe... yet if I had a nickle for everytime someone has a) told me that Italians/Greeks score super high mena on average or b) the test probably "underscored" my MENA contribution. It is ridiculous.

[Sikeliot]

Neolithic level of Spaniards is more than that of Greeks according to first chart.

Because Greeks have more Indo-European.

[Damião de Góis]

Spaniards more neolithic than greeks? That contradicts everything else i've seen so far.

[Ibericus]

Those divisions are wrong because they are redundant (Neolithic farmers have Hunter-Gather) and Yamanya have Eastern HG.

[Sikeliot]

Spaniards more neolithic than greeks? That contradicts everything else i've seen so far.

Because Indo-European/Baltic/whatever you want to call it is the only non-Neolithic component being measured and Greeks have it more than Spanish.

[Damião de Góis]

Because Indo-European/Baltic/whatever you want to call it is the only non-Neolithic component being measured and Greeks have it more than Spanish.

Taking Eurogenes k13 for example, the Baltic score is roughly the same. On the other hand there are huge differences on the West Asian + East Med scores (associated with neolithic).

[ius semper]

Because Indo-European/Baltic/whatever you want to call it is the only non-Neolithic component being measured and Greeks have it more than Spanish.

greeks have more middle eastern influence anyway. And Iberians aren't 75% french and 25% N african as you said before, that's stupid. The fact that some months ago yous aid I could fit in N Italy and france proves it.

[Sikeliot]

greeks have more middle eastern influence anyway. And Iberians aren't 75% french and 25% N african as you said before, that's stupid. The fact that some months ago yous aid I could fit in N Italy and france proves it.

Greeks are the genetic equivalent of half Bulgarian, half Sicilian.

[ius semper]

Greeks are the genetic equivalent of half Bulgarian, half Sicilian.

and Iberians plot between french and southern italian. But that's just a unit of mesure.

[Sikeliot]

and Iberians plot between french and southern italian. But that's just a unit of mesure.

Actually Iberians come up like a mixture of French and North African, like 80% French, 20% North African. Italian is not even part of the equation.

[ius semper]

Actually Iberians come up like a mixture of French and North African, like 80% French, 20% North African. Italian is not even part of the equation.

Oh yes they are. So now, iberians can look french but can't look italian right? how's that possible? Iberians are nothing but Iberians. No french, no italian, no north african and no blonde creatures of scandinavialand. The geographic position of the peninsula makes the french and the italians have something in common with us, which is so common that when you travel you get mistaken by them. Northern africans are isolated of us because of something called the gibraltar strait,

[Sikeliot]

Oh yes they are. So now, iberians can look french but can't look italian right? how's that possible? Iberians are nothing but Iberians. No french, no italian, no north african and no blonde creatures of scandinavialand. The geographic position of the peninsula makes the french and the italians have something in common with us, which is so common that when you travel you get mistaken by them. Northern africans are isolated of us because of something called the gibraltar strait,



Iberians look distinct from anyone else, in general, but they really look more like an exotic version of the French, with some looking French still. I do not think any part of Italy phenotypically overlaps with Iberia. Too much Central European influence in the north, the center looks uniquely Italic, and the southerners have too much eastern influence.

[Faklon]

Spaniards more neolithic than greeks? That contradicts everything else i've seen so far.

Those divisions are wrong because they are redundant (Neolithic farmers have Hunter-Gather) and Yamanya have Eastern HG.

Well this is from Wolfgang Haak et al, I didn't calculate it myself.

For the second part, I guess to know for sure for South-East Europe we need samples from the area to know the concept of population mingling better. Some population overlapping is to be expected as it happened with anthropology too my take, it's not aliens.

On this, from Haak et al Spaniards also seem to have Bedouin affinities.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2db340z.jpg

[Sikeliot]

\

On this, from Haak et al Spaniards also seem to have Bedouin affinities.



And Greeks not.

[Faklon]

Taking Eurogenes k13 for example, the Baltic score is roughly the same. On the other hand there are huge differences on the West Asian + East Med scores (associated with neolithic).

Are you suggesting that West-Asian is less associated with the Steppe than Atlantic-med with Neolithic farmers?

I'm not so sure if it does or not, but these variances aren't that much telling anyway.

[Damião de Góis]

Are you suggesting that West-Asian is less associated with the Steppe than Atlantic-med than Atlantic-med with Neolithic?

I'm not so sure if it does or not, but these variances aren't that much telling anyway.

No Atlantic-Med here, but let's consider West Med. I associate West Asian more to the neolithic than West Med yes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dCZldTIfd-EPjDlpQiFNcHwOtZus9Qdll3pB48zdQG0/edit#gid=0

[Petalpusher]

There s a distinction to make between early neolithic and late neolithic, it's not exactly the same, we can even talk about mid neo. Greeks have a bit more localized North comp ie Baltic in some places (Thessaly is very high) but also a bit more neolithic overall, about 10% depending on the regions we are comparing. In some way it's also rebalanced by the very high N.Atlantic iberians have (for south europe)

In my opinion the only thing that is entirely pure North/IE would be

Baltic

then what all Euro share in different proportions:
N.Atlantic
West Med
West Asian
East med

then comes the really "Alien" stuff for Europe (above noise, or even 1-2% because of some links, goes without saying):
Red sea
South Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian

and the totally distinct ethnic components (above noise again):
East Asian
NE African
SSA

[EL_BARBARO]

"Iberians here"? Iberians here post as much about italians as they do about tunisians. We are the imaginary enemies of italians, it's funny.


It seems as if we were his nightmare.

If he were recorded during his different sleep phases, I would be pretty sure it could be heard a constant "iberians, iberians, iberians, iberians, iberians, iberians, iberians, iberians...", as well as many others here.

What a morbid obsession.

Incredible.

[Faklon]

No Atlantic-Med here, but let's consider West Med. I associate West Asian more to the neolithic than West Med yes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dCZldTIfd-EPjDlpQiFNcHwOtZus9Qdll3pB48zdQG0/edit#gid=0

So,you consider a variance that it's shared more around the med (West Med) as a worse proxy for Neolithic affinities than West Asian which is shared more in Northern Europe than Iberia.

It's an interesting logic and even if it seems unlikely in the big picture may hold some truth in part, but it's not much telling.

[Petalpusher]

So,you consider a variance that it's shared more around the med (West Med) as a worse proxy for Neolithic affinities than West Asian which is shared more in Northern Europe than Iberia.

It's an interesting logic and even if it seems unlikely in the big picture may hold some truth in part, but it's not much telling.

The thing is the West Asian is not proportionnal. A Norwegian will still score 5-6% West Asian like the vast majority of Europe regardless of their neolithic influence, it's incredibly stable across countries so it doesn't tell much, except in Italy and South East Europe where it rises. It only fades just a couple of percent at the two extremities of Europe, NorthEast and SouthWest, Iberians and...Finns.

[Damião de Góis]

So,you consider a variance that it's shared more around the med (West Med) as a worse proxy for Neolithic affinities than West Asian which is shared more in Northern Europe than Iberia.

It's an interesting logic and even if it seems unlikely in the big picture may hold some truth in part, but it's not much telling.

West Med's hot spots are Sardinians and Basques. West Asian hot spots are the Caucasus and nearby regions.
Areas associated with the Neolithic have more West Asian or East Med than West Med. So it's not a far fetched conclusion.

Northern Europeans also have more West Med than West Asian or East Med if you want to mention them.

[Faklon]

...

Because the variances are overlapping to an extend and have differentiating founder effects?

Your logic is flawed because West Asian rises as you go mainstream in Europe and West Med falls when Sardinians are used as reference for farmers.

[Damião de Góis]

Because the variances are overlapping to an extend and have differentiating founder effects?

Your logic is flawed because West Asian rises as you go mainstream in Europe and West Med falls when Sardinians are used as reference for farmers.

What i said on the post above is very clear on that spreadsheet. West Asian doesn't rise as you head west into Europe from the Caucasus.
I don't think any European population has more West Asian than West Med.

Still, you can have your own interpretation and i'll have mine.

[Anthropologique]

"Iberians here"? Iberians here post as much about italians as they do about tunisians. We are the imaginary enemies of italians, it's funny.

He's putting words in people's mouths. Iberians do not claim that they look like Brits, only that there are more similarities that obtain between the two because of the Atlantic effect. You have British people on hear saying just that. No one would ever suggest they look exactly the same.

Crap, I posted dozens of group pics of mainstream indigenous Spaniards and Portuguese and then I'm accused of cheery picking. Seriously!? Cherry picking group and crowd pics in cities and villages!? Has the world gone totally mad?

[Journeyman26]

There s a distinction to make between early neolithic and late neolithic, it's not exactly the same, we can even talk about mid neo. Greeks have a bit more localized North comp ie Baltic in some places (Thessaly is very high) but also a bit more neolithic overall, about 10% depending on the regions we are comparing. In some way it's also rebalanced by the very high N.Atlantic iberians have (for south europe)

In my opinion the only thing that is entirely pure North/IE would be

Baltic

then what all Euro share in different proportions:
N.Atlantic
West Med
West Asian
East med

then comes the really "Alien" stuff for Europe (above noise, or even 1-2% because of some links, goes without saying):
Red sea
South Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian

and the totally distinct ethnic components (above noise again):
East Asian
NE African
SSA

makes sense... i score 3.26% Red Sea using K12.. but otherwise pretty standard south euro stuff (east med 28%, west med 21%, NA 21%, Baltic 14%, WA 13%). I assume that is pretty par for the course for a southerner.

[Faklon]

What i said on the post above is very clear on that spreadsheet. West Asian doesn't rise as you head west into Europe from the Caucasus.
I don't think any European population has more West Asian than West Med.

Still, you can have your own interpretation and i'll have mine.

But West-Med to West-Asian is 50 to 0 in Sardinians when the analogy in Russians to say is less that 2 to 1 and the first are used as a proxy for farmers.

Do you understand the relativity of the components we're talking about?

[Insuperable]

No Atlantic-Med here, but let's consider West Med. I associate West Asian more to the neolithic than West Med yes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dCZldTIfd-EPjDlpQiFNcHwOtZus9Qdll3pB48zdQG0/edit#gid=0

Both are neolithic, how can you associate one more with the neolithic? That West Asian is less European than West Med is true of course since West Med came with early neolithic farmers ('early' compared to European neolithic age) and West Asian came during later European neolithic age. Plus West Med peaks in Europe unlike East Med so there I agree with you.

[Damião de Góis]

But West-Med to West-Asian is 50 to 0 in Sardinians when the analogy in Russians to say is less that 2 to 1 and the first are used as a proxy for farmers.

Do you understand the relativity of the components we're talking about?


Both are neolithic, how can you associate one more with the neolithic? That West Asian is less European than West Med is true of course since West Med came with early neolithic farmers ('early' compared to European neolithic age) and West Asian came during later European neolithic age. Plus West Med peaks in Europe unlike East Med so there I agree with you.

We are thinking of different things as to who "neolithic farmers" were. If sardinians are the ones who should be considered and not modern populations from the fertile crescent, then ok.

[Petalpusher]

makes sense... i score 3.26% Red Sea using K12.. but otherwise pretty standard south euro stuff (east med 28%, west med 21%, NA 21%, Baltic 14%, WA 13%). I assume that is pretty par for the course for a southerner.

Just by your Baltic score i can tell you have something else than Italian, because even North Italians don't score more than 11-12% Baltic so it is obviously coming from your Greek side, that can reach 16% in some places, so it makes perfect sense you get an intermediate of the two averages. On the other hand it also lowers your N.Atlantic so it can only be something East of Italy.

There s really less variation in population average than people think, it's the consequence of sometimes a thousand of years of borders and everything is well stabilized now, there is still variation between regions and some here have multiple ancestries which blur things, but ive learned by looking at people's results really indigenous to a country (4gp typically) there s really almost no variation when the right samples are considered. It's pretty fascinating.

[nicalandia]

I agree, i can tell an Italian from an Iberian on the spot, even without thinking about..

[War Chef]

Southern Italians, especially Calabria, Sicily, and Campania are halfway genetically between Iberia and the Levant. Period.

Spaniards are Basque-like freaks on genetic plots, actually the biggest outliers of them all. Why not say Italians are between French and Lebs?

[Cristiano viejo]

Don't say that, Sikeliot. Iberians here desperately need to think to be lighter than them and being all almost British-looking.
You Italians are the only ones to relate Iberians with British, nor Iberians nor British both themselves.
Such obssesion.

[Sikeliot]

Spaniards are Basque-like freaks on genetic plots, actually the biggest outliers of them all. Why not say Italians are between French and Lebs?

Then maybe that is more accurate, yes.

[Sikeliot]

Just by your Baltic score i can tell you have something else than Italian, because even North Italians don't score more than 11-12% Baltic so it is obviously coming from your Greek side, that can reach 16% in some places, so it makes perfect sense you get an intermediate of the two averages.

Correct. Italians have some of the lowest NE European affinity in all of Europe.

[Seth MacFarlane]

Genitics equal phenotype at times but not always, i have seen south euros who look central european , and the oppsite happens as well

[Havomrak]

Genitics equal phenotype at times but not always, i have seen south euros who look central european , and the oppsite happens as well

Hummels is from Central Germany and looks Southern European

[Sikeliot]

Hummels is from Central Germany and looks Southern European


He looks Turkish.

[Seth MacFarlane]

Hummels is from Central Germany and looks Southern European

People dont care when someone is atypically ligher or more northern looking but when people are darker or more exotic featured, users cry all day . just like when we all know who possts british and scandavaian spaniards but gets upset and screams gypsey for the other types. Hypocrites

[spanish catalan]

because Calabria and Campania have people with "levantine look" and Basilicata and Apulia no?

[Seth MacFarlane]

because Calabria and Campania have people with "levantine look" and Basilicata and Apulia no?

Are you trying to get yourself attacked on here bro ? Lol , accoeding to some users absolutely no south italains can posses levantine looks. They are as genitically distant from lebanese as they are to spanirds but saying they have types that are like spaniards is much more acceptable.

[spanish catalan]

Are you trying to get yourself attacked on here bro ? Lol , accoeding to some users absolutely no south italains can posses levantine looks. They are as genitically distant from lebanese as they are to spanirds but saying they have types that are like spaniards is much more acceptable.

you think these phenotypes came to Italy with neolithic migration or other migration later?

[Sikeliot]

Are you trying to get yourself attacked on here bro ? Lol , accoeding to some users absolutely no south italains can posses levantine looks. They are as genitically distant from lebanese as they are to spanirds but saying they have types that are like spaniards is much more acceptable.

Because this forum is a Eurocentric forum. It is only okay here to compare Iberians to MENAs.

[Sikeliot]

because Calabria and Campania have people with "levantine look" and Basilicata and Apulia no?

All of southern Italy has these types but they are higher in Calabria and Sicily, though also present in Campania and Apulia.

[spanish catalan]

Because this forum is a Eurocentric forum. It is only okay here to compare Iberians to MENAs.

you think these types came with neolithic migration?

[Seth MacFarlane]

you think these phenotypes came to Italy with neolithic migration or other migration later?

Well , i think they come from the early neollothic farmers , the earliest ones weree from levant and the later ones were anatolian.

[Anthropologique]

Because this forum is a Eurocentric forum. It is only okay here to compare Iberians to MENAs.

Yes, mentally deficient individuals do that to boost their (pathetic) self image(s). The psychology professionals are taking copious notes as regards certain behavior patterns on this forum.

[Sikeliot]

I think such phenotypes in southern Italy are due to the region having been quite genetically bottlenecked for so long, so Neolithic Near Eastern types remained.

[spanish catalan]

I think such phenotypes in southern Italy are due to the region having been quite genetically bottlenecked for so long, so Neolithic Near Eastern types remained.

this migration?

http://i57.tinypic.com/10ngio9.png

[Sikeliot]

this migration?

http://i57.tinypic.com/10ngio9.png

Yes.

[Seth MacFarlane]

Yes, mentally deficient individuals do that to boost their (pathetic) self image(s). The psychology professionals are taking copious notes as regards certain behavior patterns on this forum.
Lol are they really

[Anthropologique]

Lol are they really

Glad you agree. One sick circus ...

[Anthropologique]

Lol are they really

Yes they are. Their comments have you ROTF.

[Kastrioti1443]

Phenotype matter a lot. Phenotype does not equal genotype or otherwise.

This forum has many examples to prove that.

Why do you make repetitions of the same fucking topics 1000 times.

If someone would go and look at your threads, he would find plenty of threads like this one.

[Anthropologique]

Phenotype matter a lot. Phenotype does not equal genotype or otherwise.

This forum has many examples to prove that.

Why do you make repetitions of the same fucking topics 1000 times.

If someone would go and look at your threads, he would find plenty of threads like this one.

Ask a population geneticist and he will tell you that genome (specifically autosomal DNA) is the biggest determinant of phenotype. Second is environmental adaptation. If you don't believe it, I would be happy to put you in touch with any number of geneticists at places like Johns Hopkins, U. Chicago and Yale.

[Kastrioti1443]

Ask a population geneticist and he will tell you that genome (specifically autosomal DNA) is the biggest determinant of phenotype. Second is environmental adaptation. If you don't believe it, I would be happy to put you in touch with any number of geneticists at places like Johns Hopkins, U. Chicago and Yale.

Autosomal DNA has to do with the look, but not always, at least with european ethncities.

There were cases in this forum where 3 people who were nordoids plotted lower than a guy who was atlanto-med/dinarid. All 4 were balkaners.

[Anthropologique]

Autosomal DNA has to do with the look, but not always, at least with european ethncities.

There were cases in this forum where 3 people who were nordoids plotted lower than a guy who was atlanto-med/dinarid. All 4 were balkaners.

That's because DNA behaves randomly, so combinatorial aberrations occur every so often. As a rule, genome composition + environmental adaptation = phenotype.

[wvwvw]

..

[Anglojew]

Of course. Autosomal DNA is the prime determinant of phenotype. That and environmental adaptation.

Is it really? Do you have some studies on the subject you could link to?

[Casandrinos]

Autosomal DNA has to do with the look, but not always, at least with european ethncities.

There were cases in this forum where 3 people who were nordoids plotted lower than a guy who was atlanto-med/dinarid. All 4 were balkaners.


Plotting is based on "North/South" labels from amateur geneticists.The autosomal DNA of two populations plotting together can be quite different.

But to people with limited intelligence Greeks and Albanians look the same , even if we dont share many SNPs on IBD shares and despite the anthropological data that is not compatible with that idea.

But hey those are genetic facts, you have to accept the mentally disturbed person's views or there will be banhammer for you.

[Petalpusher]

Autosomal DNA has to do with the look, but not always, at least with european ethncities.

There were cases in this forum where 3 people who were nordoids plotted lower than a guy who was atlanto-med/dinarid. All 4 were balkaners.

My take on this is genotype always match in some way the phenotype, we just most of the time have flawed conceptions on how things translate in the phenotype. Even centuries ago anthropologists didn't base their studies on superficial traits but on metrics, you just look at Coon's work, eyes/hair are at the bottom of every of his pseudo classification. The only thing that is consistant are the metrics, and extensive criterias of it. You can find light eyes/hair in the extreme south, let's say Sicily, but you ll have really hard time finding mesolithic features because the genetic material just isn't there in sufficient amount. Theorically it can occur at very low frequency with 15-20%, but it's like winning the lottery every single day of the week on thousands of markers to make a proper meso look, when others superficial traits are just a couple of SNPs.

[safinator]

Is it really? Do you have some studies on the subject you could link to?

There's no study on the subject because it doesn't exist, it's all conjecture of anthroforum users hidden behind some agenda usually.

Just for the sake of it light skin pigment in Europeans seems to have arose from Neolithic migrants and the Paleolithic people consistently show darker skin than the Neolithic types (Albeit with a slightly more odds of lighter eyes), that practically goes against the hivemind on here.

[Tooting Carmen]

My take on this is genotype always match in some way the phenotype, we just most of the time have flawed conceptions on how things translate in the phenotype. Even centuries ago anthropologists didn't base their studies on superficial traits but on metrics, you just look at Coon's work, eyes/hair are at the bottom of every of his pseudo classification. The only thing that is consistant are the metrics, and extensive criterias of it. You can find light eyes/hair in the extreme south, let's say Sicily, but you ll have really hard time finding mesolithic features because the genetic material just isn't there in sufficient amount. Theorically it can occur at very low frequency with 15-20%, but it's like winning the lottery every single day of the week on thousands of markers to make a proper meso look, when others superficial traits are just a couple of SNPs.

Yes that is probably true. I was actually in Sicily at the end of last month on holiday, and even the minority of light-haired/eyed people still had very different facial features and physique to the Northern European tourists walking around. Conversely, do these dark-haired Brits look particularly Southern European?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/George_osborne_hi.jpghttp://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/02/12/article-2551589-1B319C5200000578-630_306x423.jpghttp://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/21000000/Colin-Firth-3-colin-firth-21038862-2344-1313.jpg

[Petalpusher]

Yes that is probably true. I was actually in Sicily at the end of last month on holiday, and even the minority of light-haired/eyed people still had very different facial features and physique to the Northern European tourists walking around. Conversely, do these dark-haired Brits look particularly Southern European?


Imo it's unlikely to very unlikely to find them elsewhere than at least central Europe, too much forehead, chin, high cheeks, recessed orbitals... overall cizeled features that comes from mesolithic input (you can have different input of mesolithic but not that specific west Euro kind)

Even between siblings you have a lot of variations when in reality they are almost identical genetically (at 99% genotyping accuracy) yet you can have siblings with totally different hair/eyes but in a range of phenotype that are more associated to a region of Europe.

[Not a Cop]

Imo it's unlikely to very unlikely to find them elsewhere than at least central Europe, too much forehead, chin, high cheeks, recessed orbitals... overall cizeled features that comes from mesolithic input (you can have different input of mesolithic but not that specific west Euro kind)

Even between siblings you have a lot of variations when in reality they are almost identical genetically (at 99% genotyping accuracy) yet you can have siblings with totally different hair/eyes but in a range of phenotype that are more associated to a region of Europe.

Phenotype indeed=Genotype, cause it's your genes make you look so, but directly linking % of WHG or Baltic\North Atlantic to frequency of blue eyes is retarded, it's like applying free market for world economy.



There's no study on the subject because it doesn't exist, it's all conjecture of anthroforum users hidden behind some agenda usually.

Just for the sake of it light skin pigment in Europeans seems to have arose from Neolithic migrants and the Paleolithic people consistently show darker skin than the Neolithic types (Albeit with a slightly more odds of lighter eyes), that practically goes against the hivemind on here.

Not a slightly more odds, almost all of found mesolthic euros were blue-eyed, with few exceptions.

[safinator]

Not a slightly more odds, almost all of found mesolthic euros were blue-eyed, with few exceptions.

La Brana had 50% chance of being blue eyed and even the Motala samples if i remember correctly had only 66% possibility of being light eyec.

Far from the 99% possibility of light eyes you get from an offspring of two light eyed parents.

[Cristiano viejo]

Hummels is from Central Germany and looks Southern European


He looks Turkish.

Indeed, he does not look Euro.

[Anthropologique]

Is it really? Do you have some studies on the subject you could link to?


It's Biology / Genetics 101. Go to any good biology / genetics college text book and you will find plenty on the subject.

Try Alan R. Templeton: Population Genetics and Microevolutionary Theory (2006), Wiley - Liss. There are several other very good ones listed on Amazon.

It's amazing how uniformed so many TA people are about the fundamentals of population genetics.

[Ibericus]

Is it really? Do you have some studies on the subject you could link to?
Autosomal markers include plenty of phenotpic SNPs.

[Anglojew]

It's Biology / Genetics 101. Go to any good biology / genetics college text book and you will find plenty on the subject.

Try Alan R. Templeton: Population Genetics and Microevolutionary Theory (2006), Wiley - Liss. There are several other very good ones listed on Amazon.

It's amazing how uniformed so many TA people are about the fundamentals of population genetics.

Could you do a thread about the percentages associated with Y, Mt and Autosomal DNA to inform people?

[sql]

So true. People tell me I'm just European when genetically I have a significant amount of Levant DNA, yet because I have the Atlantid classification people even go as far as to call me a WASP, which is far from being true.

[Jupiter]

Most Near Eastern DNA found in Italians and other Europeans are ancient, back to the times when a lot of Near Easterners were White, before they mix and become brown like we see them nowadays. It's estimated that R1a and R1b originated in the Middle East and now the majority of the British population is R1b and half of Germans are also R1b while the other half is R1a (also from the Middle East).

Does it mean Brits and Germans have Middle Eastern ancestry? YES.
Does it mean Brits and Germans necessarily have non-White admixture? Well, I don't think so, because their Middle Eastern ancestry is ancient like I said before, and the indigenous peoples of Iran and Central Asia were blue-eyed Aryans, who aren't white anymore because they've been invaded and mixed with the invaders for a long time. However, even nowadays, isolated tribes of Central Asia are still blonde white people with blue eyes, which proves what I'm saying.

[fanta]

But phenotype generally follows genotype...

[Proctor]

Most Near Eastern DNA found in Italians and other Europeans are ancient, back to the times when a lot of Near Easterners were White, before they mix and become brown like we see them nowadays. It's estimated that R1a and R1b originated in the Middle East and now the majority of the British population is R1b and half of Germans are also R1b while the other half is R1a (also from the Middle East).

Does it mean Brits and Germans have Middle Eastern ancestry? YES.
Does it mean Brits and Germans necessarily have non-White admixture? Well, I don't think so, because their Middle Eastern ancestry is ancient like I said before, and the indigenous peoples of Iran and Central Asia were blue-eyed Aryans, who aren't white anymore because they've been invaded and mixed with the invaders for a long time. However, even nowadays, isolated tribes of Central Asia are still blonde white people with blue eyes, which proves what I'm saying.

Y-dna doesn't really equate to much.

Longbowman did a thread on it


Some people seem to have some misinformed views on haplogroups - namely, a seeming belief that they are hugely important on an individual's genetic makeup, perhaps even phenotype and race. This is just a brief thread to explain the actual value of haplogroups:

1) mtDNA constitutes the smallest chromosome in humans

mtDNA consists of only 16,600 base pairs, which might sound a lot but humans have around 3.2 billion, which means it's only about 0.0005% of your genome. In terms of direct impact on the physical form, mtDNA only constitutes 37 genes, of which according to wikipedia, 13 are for proteins (polypeptides), 22 are for transfer RNA (tRNA) and two are for the small and large subunits of ribosomal RNA (rRNA). It has very little effect on the individual. Remember, your eye colour alone is determined by c. ~15 genes, so 37 is a very small amount.



2) YDNA is larger than mtDNA, at about 50 million base pairs, but that's still only around 1% of the male genome (females do not have a Y-chromosome, which should tell you how important it is vis-a-vis phenotype and race). Unsurprisingly, it's mainly involved in proteins that exist in males but not females. It is a fascinating chromosome, especially with regards to the differences between humans and other mammals.

3) So why are they so often cited in human genetics?

Because they're the only genes automatically handed down father-to-son, and mother-to-child, excluding mutations, which makes them useful for identifying racial groupings. So if 80% of Britons are R1b, then R1b becomes associated with Britons. But, even assuming YDNA chomosome X is exclusively Finnish in origin, if someone has YDNA clade X, all it means is 1 great great great great great etc. grandparent was Finnish - and thus YDNA isn't hugely relevant in determine the race of an individual. Similarly, not being clade X doesn't mean you aren't Finnish, it just means your great great etc. grandparent wasn't Finnish. The remaining 99%+ of your makeup could easily be Finnish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

Here's the thread: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?107088-Actual-Importance-of-Haplogroups

[Sikeliot]

But phenotype generally follows genotype...

Yes. So if people make contentions about phenotype that do not match genotype, they have an incorrect idea of how the ethnicity looks.

[Hadouken]

Indeed, he does not look Euro.

hummels doesnt look euro ? please...

[Cristiano viejo]

hummels doesnt look euro ? please...

At all.

[Hadouken]

At all.

he does look very european

[Cristiano viejo]

he does look very european

Excuse me, are we talking about the same person?

This?

http://cdn.glamour.mx/uploads/images/thumbs/201425/guapos_mundial_brasil_2014_jugadores_fotos_4331046 39_320x.jpg

[Petalpusher]

Hummels indeed gives a pseudo Turkish vibe, at the same time he has a lot of Germanic features to me. I was looking for pic of his parents (usually a good way to be sure)

There was a convo on some old topic here :

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?51818-Classify-germans-Pierre-Littbarski-amp-Mats-Hummels&p=956117&viewfull=1#post956117

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ld23s8MgJI1qf6l16o1_500.png

They look very (real life) Germans, both have German names, from Westphalia,.. ironically this guy may come out "North German" genetically.



(Inb4 Guapo say tourists)

[Sikeliot]

hummels doesnt look euro ? please...

He looks Turkish.

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/67/590x/450012957-488986.jpg
http://www.unicef.de/img/crop/72020/content/c986a962ac64a2503b6c8a1da48e70da/yH/mats-hummels-portraet.jpg

[Hadouken]

can pass in turkey yes but that doesnt have anything to do with it ....there are tons of euros who can fit in turkey (and not even atypical)

the man looks european

[Damião de Góis]

Obviously Hummels doesn't look turkish. Any football fan who has seen him on TV can tell you that.
Saying he looks non euro is very far fetched in my opinion

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Photo/competitions/General/01/68/27/51/1682751_w2.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

Obviously Hummels doesn't look turkish. Any football fan who has seen him on TV can tell you that.
Saying he looks non euro is very far fetched in my opinion

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Photo/competitions/General/01/68/27/51/1682751_w2.jpg

He looks Turkish to me, and nothing German. There are tons of dark Germans but this guy overpass everything.

[pelikarski]

If he passes in Turkey, this doesn't mean he is not European looking.
There are lots of people with fair features that can fit as Turks too. Turks can look from N.European to Arabic

[Cristiano viejo]

If he passes in Turkey, this doesn't mean he is not European looking.
There are lots of people with fair features that can fit as Turks too. Turks can look from N.European to Arabic

That is true but Hummels has an Asian vibe that it hurts.

[Sikeliot]

He doesn't even look like the type of Turks who look European though.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Obviously Hummels doesn't look turkish. Any football fan who has seen him on TV can tell you that.
Saying he looks non euro is very far fetched in my opinion

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Photo/competitions/General/01/68/27/51/1682751_w2.jpg

Agreed. He looks similar to this Mexican actor guy who is clearly pred. Caucasoid-Euro, Iberian.
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t34.0-12/11997213_1049057875135205_542352496_n.jpg?oh=2f828 65871d5e957ccfef3586d111c37&oe=55F39192
The chick with her is Spanish ancestry, from what I know also partly French ancestry also by her mom side.

[Cristiano viejo]

Agreed. He looks similar to this Mexican actor guy who is clearly pred. Caucasoid-Euro, Iberian.
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t34.0-12/11997213_1049057875135205_542352496_n.jpg?oh=2f828 65871d5e957ccfef3586d111c37&oe=55F39192
The chick with her is Spanish ancestry, from what I know also partly French ancestry also by her mom side.

They look nothing alike, the Hummels eyes have an Asian vibe that it is not happen with the Mexican guy.

[Not a Cop]

Yes. So if people make contentions about phenotype that do not match genotype, they have an incorrect idea of how the ethnicity looks.

Damn i am i the only guy, who attended biology lessons here? Phenotype always match the genotype, it's basics.



That is true but Hummels has an Asian vibe that it hurts.

Huemmels has nothig asian about him.

[Cristiano viejo]

Damn i am i the only guy, who attended biology lessons here? Phenotype always match the genotype, it's basics.




Huemmels has nothig asian about him.

This phenotype is 50% black/50% white?

http://entretenimiento.starmedia.com/imagenes/2013/09/prison.jpg

what about this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Dennis_Schroder_2015_cropped.jpg

[Berahthraban]

This phenotype is 50% black/50% white?

http://entretenimiento.starmedia.com/imagenes/2013/09/prison.jpg

Wentworth Miller is not 50% black, probably much less.
This is his father to the right: https://i2.wp.com/img4.imageshack.us/img4/5867/wentunclechrisdad.jpg
But I definitely agree that phenotype does not always match the genotype, I mean, there is no discussion about that.

[Kazbolat]

What is the percentage of moorish genes in Iberia? To me Iberians look like a cross between british and moroccans

[Damião de Góis]

What is the percentage of moorish genes in Iberia? To me Iberians look like a cross between british and moroccans

A lot less than iranid influence in caucasians, just look at a genetic plot to see who's closer to who. To me Caucasians look like irano-afghans anyway.

[Cristiano viejo]

What is the percentage of moorish genes in Iberia? To me Iberians look like a cross between british and moroccans

That is because you are retard, we are 100% Moroccans.

[Kazbolat]

^Did i hit a nerve?

[Anthropologique]

Wentworth Miller is not 50% black, probably much less.
This is his father to the right: https://i2.wp.com/img4.imageshack.us/img4/5867/wentunclechrisdad.jpg
But I definitely agree that phenotype does not always match the genotype, I mean, there is no discussion about that.

Yes, you don't always get exact matches because environmental adaptation is also part of the equation and DNA behaves randomly, sometimes yielding combinatorial anomalies.

[Anthropologique]

^Did i hit a nerve?

Very modest NA levels and the markers are exceedingly old. What you seem to have been influenced by are the pics of non-indigenous Iberians that trolls and Iberian haters post on here. Gypsies and mixed race people are not native to Iberia.

Your perception that Iberians are a cross between Moroccans and British is ludicrous.

Learn some genetics ...

[EL_BARBARO]

^Did i hit a nerve?


No, you simply shitted. Now flush the toilet please.

[Anthropologique]

No, you simply shitted. Now flush the toilet please.

GOOD ONE!!:thumb001::thumb001:

[Kazbolat]

Very modest NA levels and the markers are exceedingly old. What you seem to have been influenced by are the pics of non-indigenous Iberians that trolls and Iberian haters post on here. Gypsies and mixed race people are not native to Iberia.

Your perception that Iberians are a cross between Moroccans and British is ludicrous.

Learn some genetics ...

Okay

Dodecad k12b
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit?pli=1#gid=0


Spanish_D 5.1% Northwest_African


Canarias 11.8% Northwest_African


Algerian_D 34.7% Northwest_African


No doubt that northwest_african admixture in Spanish comes from North African Moors. If we take Algerians as a proxy for invading Moors, then Iberians are at least 15-20% Moorish/North African genetically, and Canarians are ~30%.

[Sikeliot]

Okay

Dodecad k12b
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit?pli=1#gid=0


Spanish_D 5.1% Northwest_African


Canarias 11.8% Northwest_African


Algerian_D 34.7% Northwest_African


No doubt that northwest_african admixture in Spanish comes from North African Moors. If we take Algerians as a proxy for invading Moors, then Iberians are at least 15-20% Moorish/North African genetically, and Canarians are ~30%.

Yes. "North African" component is probably ancient though, but that Algerians only score 34% shows that Iberians are more than 5% North African.

[Anthropologique]

Okay

Dodecad k12b
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit?pli=1#gid=0


Spanish_D 5.1% Northwest_African


Canarias 11.8% Northwest_African


Algerian_D 34.7% Northwest_African


No doubt that northwest_african admixture in Spanish comes from North African Moors. If we take Algerians as a proxy for invading Moors, then Iberians are at least 15-20% Moorish/North African genetically, and Canarians are ~30%.

Nonsense.

Nearly all of NA is the result of ancient (Mesolithic and Neolithic) migrations; from the original Eurasian Berbers. The Canaries are considered apart from the mainland. Population geneticists treat NATIVE Canarians a group separate from native Spaniards.

[Anthropologique]

DELET.

[Anthropologique]

Yes. "North African" component is probably ancient though, but that Algerians only score 34% shows that Iberians are more than 5% North African.

I know many Iberians who do not show North African at all in their DNA scores. Many other have < 0.2%.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes. "North African" component is probably ancient though, but that Algerians only score 34% shows that Iberians are more than 5% North African.

Nonsense, modern Algerians have nothing to do with Northern African from the invasion, they have been strongly mixed since then.

[Petalpusher]

They were probably an intermediate of Mozabites and Algerians, in the 50% NW Africa range, so that would be more like a 10% influence overall counting a bit of prehistoric input that is present in all ancient genomes. It's also what match best the SSA level, since 10% NA is more or less 2%, you rarely find more than that. I would say the largest spectrum is 5-15% of Moors+NA influence overall, depending on regions, with the lowest level in the NEast and as usual the Basques with nothing.

[Ibericus]

Yes. "North African" component is probably ancient though, but that Algerians only score 34% shows that Iberians are more than 5% North African.
The north-african component is based on the Mozabites, who score 98.5% of this component. So that makes it a full 5% north-african. Which is close to the 5% given for mainland iberians on the study of Canarians, in which north-africans (from Morocco) themselves score 95% of their own component :

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0018389.t002&representation=PNG_L

[Ibericus]

They were probably an intermediate of Mozabites and Algerians, in the 50% NW Africa range, so that would be more like a 10% influence overall counting a bit of prehistoric input that is present in all ancient genomes. It's also what match best the SSA level, since 10% NA is more or less 2%, you rarely find more than that. I would say the largest spectrum is 5-15% of Moors+NA influence overall, depending on regions, with the lowest level in the NEast and as usual the Basques with nothing.
Nah. I would say the range is 0-6% (from 0% of Basque, Navarrese, northern Aragón, etc. to maximum of 6% in Extremadure and Murcia). So the average is something in the middle, like 3%. And then a separate thing is 15% for Canarians.

[Petalpusher]

Nah. I would say the range is 0-6% (from 0% of Basque, Navarrese, northern Aragón, etc. to maximum of 6% in Extremadure and Murcia). So the average is something in the middle, like 3%. And then a separate thing is 15% for Canarians.

If you consider it was full blown Mozabites yes. What i tried to say is, they were probably not. If they were 50-60%, then it doubles the influence but doesnt increase it per say (just a higher input of a less intense N.African)

Basically 5% of Mozabite influence, or 10% of an intermediate, or 15% if they were ethnically Algerians (less likely i think). The influence is still the same, what is unclear is exactly the ethnic makeup of the input. The datas of SSA just hint more at an intermediate in my opinion.

K12b looks very conservative on SSA because of course it's in the NW African (almost no one score any) so you can also consider 0.1 SSA is equal 5% NA. North/NE Spain doesn't score any but some score 0.1/0.3 + the NW Africa. Cataluna is at the lowest with 2.4 NW and 0 SSA. Basques are 0+0, maybe little readings on the Spanish side.

[Ibericus]

If you consider it was full blown Mozabites yes. What i tried to say is, they were probably not. If they were 50-60%, then it doubles the influence but doesnt increase it per say (just a higher input of a less intense N.African)

Basically 5% of Mozabite influence, or 10% of an intermediate, or 15% if they were ethnically Algerians (less likely i think). The influence is still the same, what is unclear is exactly the ethnic makeup of the input. The datas of SSA just hint more at an intermediate in my opinion.

K12b looks very conservative on SSA because of course it's in the NW African (almost no one score any) so you can also consider 0.1 SSA is equal 5% NA. North/NE Spain doesn't score any but some score 0.1/0.3 + the NW Africa. Cataluna is at the lowest with 2.4 NW and 0 SSA. Basques are 0+0, maybe little readings on the Spanish side.
No. In reality Mozabites are exactly the same as Algerians or Moroccans. The only difference is that they are inbred and isolated, that's why they create their own component. Aside from that , the study on Canarians, the north-african component is made only of Moroccans from Rabat and Casablanca, they score 94.7% of the North-African component, while Iberian score 5% of this component.

[Petalpusher]

They are not exactly the same, Mozabites score more legit SSA. So if you want to score 5% of 100% NorthWest African that embeds +20% SSA, fine.. but it's the same than getting 10% of 50% NorthWest Africa with less SSA, the latter looks closer to reality imo that's all, so we are actually agreeing on the overall influence. It's not 20% like some say but depending on what we consider ethnically for the input it's on average 5% of peak N.African or 10% of a less hardcore NA (and 15%, in some cases more, for the Isles.)

[GiCa]

He can be adopted..as he doesn't biologically resemble none of his parents
Well in that case he s nevertheless German.

[Kazbolat]

Spaniards are at least 15-20% north african genetically PERIOD

[Gaston]

Spaniards are at least 15-20% north african genetically PERIOD

There is no "period" in science, it just shows you're desperate to make your claim to be accepted.
But no, Spaniards are not at least 15-20% North African (this suits more Canarians) but 5 to 10%+ North African.

In any case, it doesn't make you Caucasians a European or white population. And Iberians still look closest to the pinnacle of whiteness (which are the Brits).


Nonsense, modern Algerians have nothing to do with Northern African from the invasion, they have been strongly mixed since then.

There is no evidence for that, modern Northwest Africans being quite homogenous from the Atlantic to Libya (which is an enormous distance), the levels of African ancestry being rather similar all across the board and ANE-admixture lacking altogether.



Enough arguing about Southern European phenotypes, who is lighter vs darker. We have PLENTY of genetic data and it is completely unambiguous.


Genetics and "phenotypes" (aka looks in this forum) are two separate things and one doesn't have superiority over the other. Actually both have to show that while on a global level, genes and phenotype correlate quite well, on a regional levels it doesn't always. This last point is often ignored by most people in this forum and the pseudo-science bullshit that is classification is very popular here and still going on.

[Cristiano viejo]

There is no evidence for that, modern Northwest Africans being quite homogenous from the Atlantic to Libya (which is an enormous distance), the levels of African ancestry being rather similar all across the board and ANE-admixture lacking altogether.


You just have to see how look some Berbers nowadays, and the rest of the North Africa population, to check how it must have been the North African population until the Arab invasion.
Also you just have to read the descriptions and engravings of them from the time.

I seriously doubt about E1b1b being "a brown haplogroup". If it was, all Spaniards should look like Maghrebians taking account this stupid thread.

[Kazbolat]

There is no "period" in science, it just shows you're desperate to make your claim to be accepted.
But no, Spaniards are not at least 15-20% North African (this suits more Canarians) but 5 to 10%+ North African.

In any case, it doesn't make you Caucasians a European or white population. And Iberians still look closest to the pinnacle of whiteness (which are the Brits).

Are you serious? Do i look like a guy who cares about being european? Europeans are primitive Neolithic + WHG animals who got raped by ANE-rich IndoEuropeans.

[Grab the Gauge]

Are you serious? Do i look like a guy who cares about being european? Europeans are primitive Neolithic + WHG animals who got raped by ANE-rich IndoEuropeans.

IndoEuropeans were ENF and WHG, not ANE. ANE is a Mongoloid group that came out of the Upper Paleolithic and raped everyone. IndoEuropeans merged with, and did not rape, WHG in southern and central Europe.

[Peterski]

ENF were Neolithic farmers, not Indo-Europeans.

Indo-Europeans were primarily EHG (which was a mix of WHG with ANE) and Caucasus-Gedrosian.

ANE, which is based on Mal'ta boy, has nothing to do with Mongoloids, it is related to Europids and Amerinds:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30809-Kennewick-Man-Was-Native-American?p=463644&viewfull=1#post463644


(...) This suggests that populations related to contemporary Western Eurasians had a more north-easterly distribution 24,000 years ago than commonly thought. Furthermore, we estimate that 14 to 38% of Native American ancestry may originate through gene flow from this ancient population. (...) Gene flow from the MA-1 [Mal'ta] lineage into Native American ancestors could explain why several crania from the First Americans have been reported as bearing morphological characteristics that do not resemble those of east Asians2, 13. Sequencing of another south-central Siberian, Afontova Gora-2 dating to approximately 17,000 years ago14, revealed similar autosomal genetic signatures as MA-1, suggesting that the region was continuously occupied by humans throughout the Last Glacial Maximum. Our findings reveal that western Eurasian genetic signatures in modern-day Native Americans derive not only from post-Columbian admixture, as commonly thought, but also from a mixed ancestry of the First Americans. (...)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4105016/bin/nihms583477f1.jpg

Mal'ta boy in K19 scores as populations which are descended from ANE - no East Asians among them. Mal'ta boy was "33% Lithuanian", "27% Kalash" and "17% Chipewyan" as you can see (because these populations are to a large extent descended from him or his like):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30809-Kennewick-Man-Was-Native-American?p=463732&viewfull=1#post463732

http://abload.de/img/malboy_k19qyzbt.png

=======================

ANE admixture (Non-Mongoloid):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3714-Post-Neolithic-impact-lesser-as-we-move-south-in-Europe-fair-comment&p=64896&viewfull=1#post64896

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/ANEK8.png

East Asian admixture (Mongoloid):

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/EEAK8.png

[Grab the Gauge]

ANE, which is based on Mal'ta boy, has nothing to do with Mongoloids, it is related to Europids and Amerinds:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30809-Kennewick-Man-Was-Native-American?p=463644&viewfull=1#post463644

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4105016/bin/nihms583477f1.jpg

Look at the portraits they carved of themselves (http://donsmaps.com/malta.html). They were Mongolod. "Amerinds" are Mongoloids.

[Peterski]

EHG = Eastern European hunter-gatherers (based on DNA from Karelian sample and Samara sample).

EHG can be modelled as a mixture of WHG and ANE. WHG was ANE-free.

Yamnaya and Corded Ware were EHG (or WHG + ANE) and Caucasus-Gedrosia (not the same as ENF).

SHG = Scandinavian hunter-gatherers, mostly WHG + some ANE as well.

[Peterski]

They were Mongolod. "Amerinds" are Mongoloids.

Nope. :no:

Keep up with most recent findings in genetic research. You are a few years behind.

Amerinds are not Mongoloid, they are MUTTS. They are mix of several groups:

- Mongoloids
- Cacuasoid Siberians (= ANE)
- Australasians
- Polynesians

This is from the 2015 paper revealing Australasian admixture in South Amerinds:

http://dna-explained.com/2015/07/22/some-native-americans-had-oceanic-ancestors/

http://d1jrw5jterzxwu.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/default/files/uploads/nature-dna-map.jpg

[Peterski]

Not a single Amerind population is "pure Mongoloid".

All of them have Caucasoid Siberian (ANE = Ancient North Eurasian) admixture, ranging from 14% to 38% of total DNA.

Many South Amerinds also have admixture related to Australo-Melanesians (such as Papuans, etc.) and Negritos:

Xavante people:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Xavante.jpg

Surui people:

http://www.oneworldmanystories.com/img/storyimages/14_surui_tribe_1.jpg

Karitana people:

http://img.brainjet.com/slides/2/7/1/2/4/4/2712441958/20118e5dd86416261ab0202e56f6dc7f85ab0c97.png

[Arhat]

Are you serious? Do i look like a guy who cares about being european? Europeans are primitive Neolithic + WHG animals who got raped by ANE-rich IndoEuropeans.

Can you not stop with this trolling? Europeans are a mix of EHG/WHG/ENF and not less mixed than Caucasians which are also a very mixed population. Most of European Y-DNA is Indo-European anyways unlike that of North Caucasians which are low in R1

[Peterski]

Autosomal DNA of Kennewick Man and Anzick 1 in Eurogenes_ANE K7 calculator:

Kennewick:

East Asian - 48.66%
ANE - 29,12%
WHG-UHG - 16.27%

Anzick 1:

East Asian - 55.30%
ANE - 34.01%
WHG-UHG - 5.15%

UHG = Unknown Hunter-Gatherer
WHG = Western Hunter-Gatherer

ANE = Mal'ta boy (in other words, Mal'ta boy is 100% ANE; ANE is based on him)

That ANE population had nothing to do with East Asians / Mongoloids.

East Asian is a totally different component, and is not related to ANE.

[Peterski]

Autosomal DNA of Kennewick Man and Anzick 1 in Eurogenes_ANE K7 calculator:

Kennewick:

East Asian - 48.66%
ANE - 29,12%
WHG-UHG - 16.27%

Anzick 1:

East Asian - 55.30%
ANE - 34.01%
WHG-UHG - 5.15%

UHG = Unknown Hunter-Gatherer
WHG = Western Hunter-Gatherer

ANE = Mal'ta boy (in other words, Mal'ta boy is 100% ANE; ANE is based on him)

That ANE population had nothing to do with East Asians / Mongoloids.

East Asian is a totally different component, and is not related to ANE.

Indo-Europeans of Corded Ware culture and Yamnaya culture were also rich in ANE, but also had Caucasus-Gedrosia and WHG:

EHG (Western Russian hunter-gatherers from Karelia and from Samara region) were essentially WHG + ANE mix:

Autosomal admixtures (note that despite some being R1b and some R1a, autosomally they were similar)

http://s27.postimg.org/3o2nxh9kj/EHG_PIE.png

http://s27.postimg.org/3o2nxh9kj/EHG_PIE.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYMS7NsA9Hw

Yamnaya culture men - reconstructions from skulls:

http://s3.postimg.org/5163x2jnn/Yamna_2.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Yamna_culture.jpg

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/yamnaya1z3r2ubptdc.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Yamna_cultdure.jpg


The Yamna population generally belongs to the European race. It was tall (175.5cm), dolichocephalic, with broad faces of medium height. Among them there were, however, more robust elements with high and wide faces of the proto-Europoid type, and also more gracile individuals with narrow and high faces, probably reflecting contacts with the East Mediterranean type (Kurts 1984: 90).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REZlM021s_8

[Grab the Gauge]

Autosomal DNA of Kennewick Man and Anzick 1 in Eurogenes_ANE K7 calculator:

Kennewick:

East Asian - 48.66%
ANE - 29,12%
WHG-UHG - 16.27%

Anzick 1:

East Asian - 55.30%
ANE - 34.01%
WHG-UHG - 5.15%

UHG = Unknown Hunter-Gatherer
WHG = Western Hunter-Gatherer

ANE = Mal'ta boy (in other words, Mal'ta boy is 100% ANE; ANE is based on him)

That ANE population had nothing to do with East Asians / Mongoloids.

East Asian is a totally different component, and is not related to ANE.

This should be the last time I have to explain this to you.

Amerindians are Mongoloids. East Asians are Mongoloids. Mal'ta are Mongoloids.

http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/images-art/malta-venus.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/14/03/14/140314f1ca500a421e26877baf0ec014.jpg


This is a matter of forensic and biological fact. West Eurasians are not exclusively Caucasoid.

Mal'ta-Buret has East Asian admixture. By the virtue of their close regional proximity to Tianyuan, and the placement of Oase 1 in West Eurasia, they would have to be part East Asian. Genetics says this. The Mal'ta-Buret material culture says this. Anyone who continues to say anything to the contrary is a fanatic in denial.

And that's the way the world works.

[Peterski]

^ Autosomally Yamnaya guys were, as you can see above, ~35% ANE, ~35% WHG, ~5% South Asian and ~25% Caucasus-Gedrosia.

And they had extremely Europid look, despite being ~35% ANE. So ANE =/= Mongoloid. They would be much less Europid looking if it was.


Amerindians are Mongoloids. East Asians are Mongoloids. Mal'ta are Mongoloids.

Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish... Mongoloid = East Asian, that's how Mongoloid is defined.

And ANE has been proven time and again not to be related to East Asians, nor ancestral to them.

ANE was related and partially ancestral to Amerindians, Europeans, Middle Easterners and South Asians.

The old idea that Amerindians are 100% Mongoloid is outdated since around year 2012 or 2013... :picard1:

Native Americans are ca. 60-65% Mongoloid-like, the remaining 40-35% is Caucasoid-like and Australoid-like.

Kennewick Man was even less than 50% Mongoloid, as you can see above. Anzick was 55% Mongoloid.

[Grab the Gauge]

Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish. Mongoloid = East Asian, that's how Mongoloid is defined.



Yet again, you are wrong and your shitty Soviet reconstruction is too.




Mon·gol·oid (mŏng′gə-loid′, mŏn′-)
adj.

1. Of or being a human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as yellowish-brown skin, straight black hair, dark eyes with epicanthic folds, and prominent cheekbones and including peoples indigenous to central and eastern Asia. No longer in scientific use. See Usage Note at Negroid.
2. Characteristic of or resembling a Mongol.
3. also mongoloid Offensive Of or relating to Down syndrome.
n.
1. A member of the Mongoloid racial classification. No longer in scientific use.
2. also mongoloid Offensive A person with Down syndrome.
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

Mongoloid (ˈmɒŋɡəˌlɔɪd)
adj

1. (Peoples) denoting, relating to, or belonging to one of the supposed racial groups of mankind, including most of the peoples of Asia, the Inuit, and the North American Indians
n
2. (Peoples) a member of this group

[Peterski]

including peoples indigenous to central and eastern Asia.

And yet more rubbish! Mongoloids are NOT indigenous to Central Asia... :picard1:

They expanded into Central Asia during the Iron Age and during the Middle Ages.

Until the end of the Bronze Age all of Central Asian ancient DNA is Caucasoid:

A. Frequency of mtDNA lineages of East Asian origin before the Iron Age:
B. Frequency of lineages of East Asian origin by the end of the Iron Age:

http://s24.postimg.org/6td3u1p85/paz2.png

And here anthropological data which only confirms those mtDNA figures:

http://s15.postimg.org/5jqlfhl0b/Kazakh_genesis_Ismagulov.jpg

[Peterski]

No longer in scientific use.

Exactly - term "Mongoloid" in a way you are using it, is no longer in scientific use.

North-East Asians are different from South-East Asians and different from Native Americans.

They cannot all be lumped under one umbrella term "Mongoloid". They are not one race.

Filipinos, for example, are a mixture of two races - of North-East Asians and local Negritos.

In general MOST of the world is racially mixed, and was already before 1492.

Native Americans were a mixture of Mongoloids, Non-Mongoloid Siberians, and Australo-Melanesians.

Later on also Polynesians added to that mix (reaching South America from the Easter Island).

[Grab the Gauge]

Oase 1 from Romania is East Asian (40k years old). Tianyuan from China is East Asian (40k years old.) You do the logistics, Einstein.

[Peterski]

Oase 1 from Romania is East Asian (40k years old).

Yet more rubbish all the time... Where did you find info that he was "East Asian" ???

He was 1/8 Neanderthal and 7/8 Out-of-African Human (so-called "Basal Eurasian").

He lived before the divergence of "Basal Eurasians" into West Eurasians and East Asians.

East Asians came into being some 30,000 - 35,000 years ago - long after Oase 1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectodysplasin_A_receptor#East_Asian_characteristic s

Oase 1 was equally closely related to many modern Eurasian populations:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5242-split-Uniparental-Markers-amp-Paleolithic-Asia/page7&highlight=Oase

[Raikaswinþs]

stop arguing about stupid shit!- has 80k threads about stupid shit

face it Sikeliot, the entire section should be moved to troll carnival and nk one would even realise. no need to dress it all up as "anthropology".

[Peterski]

According to the definition of "Mongoloid" that you quoted:


traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as yellowish-brown skin, straight black hair, dark eyes with epicanthic folds, and prominent cheekbones

Oase 1 had dark skin, he did not have straight hair (that mutation emerged 5,000 - 10,000 years after his death), etc., etc.

So what makes him Mongoloid or East Asian? Show me his epicanthic folds and prominent cheekbones.

Oase 1 simply lived before East Asians and West Eurasians even started to exist as "things".

[Grab the Gauge]

According to the definition of "Mongoloid" that you quoted:



Oase 1 had dark skin, he did not have straight hair (that mutation emerged 5,000 - 10,000 years after his death), etc., etc.

So what makes him Mongoloid or East Asian? Show me his epicanthic folds and prominent cheekbones.

Oase 1 simply lived before East Asians even existed as a "thing".

Because he's East Asian you fucktard. Read Fu's paper.

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2015_Nature_Fu_Oase.pdf



Analysis of DNA from Oase-1 showed that he had approximately 6-9% Neanderthal ancestry, significantly more than any present-day human, derived (at least in part) from interbreeding 4 to 6 generations earlier. He was not more closely related to ancient European hunter-gatherers than to East Asians, suggesting that his population did not make a significant contribution to modern European ancestry. He carried modern human uniparental lineages - an extinct lineage of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N and a form of Y DNA haplogroup F exclusive of G, H, and IJ.[6]

[Grab the Gauge]

Sinodont Upper Paleolithic modern human remains found in Russia near Denisova cave


www.archaeology.nsc.ru/ru/about/conferenc/doc/2011_01.pdf

[Jupiter]

I explain the origins of the European race on two threads:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?184201-Nordids-Are-NOT-From-This-Planet

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?184389-Part-2-Nordids-Are-NOT-From-This-Planet

[Peterski]

Because he's East Asian you fucktard. Read Fu's paper.

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2015_Nature_Fu_Oase.pdf


Analysis of DNA from Oase-1 showed that he had approximately 6-9% Neanderthal ancestry, significantly more than any present-day human, derived (at least in part) from interbreeding 4 to 6 generations earlier. He was not more closely related to ancient European hunter-gatherers than to East Asians, suggesting that his population did not make a significant contribution to modern European ancestry. He carried modern human uniparental lineages - an extinct lineage of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N and a form of Y DNA haplogroup F exclusive of G, H, and IJ.[6]]

He was NOT East Asian...The only thing they wrote is:

"He is not more closely related to European HGs than to East Asians".

It's because he was Basal Eurasian. And also because:

"He carried (...) an extinct lineage of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N"

His lineage got extinct, he wasn't ancestral to East Asians.

==========================================

Oase 1 (though his skin colour was most certainly much darker):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wIXCiYCiiw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wIXCiYCiiw

[Nurzat]

I think the opposite, phenotypes are what matter (if you dont score high figures of non-white blood of course, for example more than 1-2%, no more).

looks over genetics, I agree, but they mostly go hand in hand anyway

[Grab the Gauge]

He was NOT East Asian...The only thing they wrote is:

"He is not more closely related to European HGs than to East Asians".

It's because he was Basal Eurasian. And also because:

"He carried (...) an extinct lineage of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N"

His lineage got extinct, he wasn't ancestral to East Asians.

==========================================

Oase 1 (though his skin colour was most certainly much darker):


Unbelievable.


Litvin, you are wrong. Oase 1 is not a Basal Eurasian and he looked absolutely nothing like the laughable painting in your trash video. Read Qiaomei Fu's paper immediately, admit that you are wrong, and move on with your life.




To isolate nuclear DNA from Oase 1, we used three sets of oligo- nucleotide probes that cover about two million sites that are single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) in present-day humans and cap- tured DNA molecules from the five libraries. Of the SNPs targeted, 51% (n 5 1,038,619) were covered by at least one DNA fragment, and 13% (n 5 271,326) were covered by at least one fragment with a terminal C-to-T substitution. To estimate nuclear DNA contamina- tion, we tested whether Oase 1 DNA fragments with or without evid- ence of deamination share more alleles with present-day Europeans or with East Asians. We found that Europeans share significantly fewer alleles with Oase 1 fragments that are deaminated than with Oase 1 fragments that are not, consistent with European contamination of 17–30% (Supplementary Note 1). On the basis of these findings and those from mtDNA, we restricted all subsequent analyses to DNA fragments that carry terminal C-to-T substitutions. After doing this, we found that we captured targeted SNPs from the X and Y chromo- somes at a similar rate, indicating that Oase 1 carried both an X and a Y chromosome and thus that he was male. The Y chromosome alleles belong to the F haplogroup, which is carried by most males in Eurasia today (Supplementary Note 2)

To determine the relationship of the Oase 1 individual to present- day populations, we first tested whether he shared more alleles with particular present-day individuals from different populations using D-statistics, which provides a robust estimate of admixture almost regardless of how SNPs for analysis are chosen27. We find that Oase 1 shared more alleles with present-day East Asians and Native Americans than with present-day Europeans, counter to what might naively be expected for an ancient individual from Europe (Fig. 1) (5.2 # jZj # 6.4; Extended Data Table 1). However, it has been sug- gested that Europeans after the introduction of agriculture derive a part of their ancestry from a ‘basal Eurasian’ population that separated from the initial settlers of Europe and Asia before they split from each other28. Therefore, we replaced present-day Europeans with Palaeolithic and Mesolithic European individuals in these analyses. We then find that the Oase 1 individual shares equally many alleles with these early Europeans as with present-day East Asians and Native Americans (Fig.1)(jZj #1.5inExtendedDataTable 1)

Restrictingthis analysis to transversion polymorphisms, which are not susceptible to errors induced by cytosine deamination, does not influence this result (Extended Data Table 2 and Supplementary Note 3). This suggests that the Oase 1 individual belonged to a population that did not contribute much,or not at all, tolater Europeans. This contrasts,for example, with the ,36,000–39,000-year-old Kostenki 14 individual from western Russia, who was more closely related to later Europeans than to East Asians (1.9 # jZj # 13.7; Extended Data Table 1)16.

[Insuperable]

Because he's East Asian you fucktard. Read Fu's paper.

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2015_Nature_Fu_Oase.pdf

LoL. He wasn't East Asian nor European nor anything resembling any modern population. Here is the analysis of his genome.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/06/24/analyses-of-the-oase-1-genome/

As Davidski puts it he is of all population the most similar to present-day Eurasians and apparently from a population that was on the way to becoming European. but probably did not contribute in any significant way to the genetic makeup of present-day Europeans.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.hr/2015/05/ancient-dna-from-upper-paleolithic.html



Unbelievable.

Litvin, you are wrong. Oase 1 is not a Basal Eurasian and he looked absolutely nothing like the laughable painting in your trash video. Read Qiaomei Fu's paper immediately, admit that you are wrong, and move on with your life.



Yes, it is true that he wasn't a Basal Eurasian that is not Basal Eurasian ancestreal to European farmers, but of different kind.

[Grab the Gauge]

As Davidski puts it he is of all population the most similar to present-day Eurasians and apparently from a population that was on the way to becoming European.




Yes, it is true that he wasn't a Basal Eurasian that is not Basal Eurasian ancestreal to European farmers, but of different kind.

Read Qiaomei Fu's paper immediately and stop posting white trash anthropology. OASE 1 IS CLOSER TO MODERN DAY EAST ASIANS AND NATIVE AMERICANS THAN PRESENT DAY EUROPEANS. THE UPPER PALEOLITHIC POPULATION OF EUROPE INCLUDED MONGOLOIDS. OASE 1, LIKE MESOLITHIC SWEDES, EVEN HAD DERIVED EDAR 370A. THEY WERE EXACTLY LIKE MODERN DAY EAST ASIANS IN FACIAL FEATURES AND SOFT TISSUE COLORATION AND FORM. GENETICS CONFIRMS THIS. PHYSICAL EVIDENCE FROM EUROPE AND ASIA CONFIRMS THIS. IT'S NOT A MATTER FOR DEBATE.

[KabaralSalatin]

Well it's probably correct..

[Insuperable]

Read Qiaomei Fu's paper immediately and stop posting white trash anthropology. OASE 1 IS CLOSER TO MODERN DAY EAST ASIANS AND NATIVE AMERICANS THAN PRESENT DAY EUROPEANS. THE UPPER PALEOLITHIC POPULATION OF EUROPE INCLUDED MONGOLOIDS. OASE 1, LIKE MESOLITHIC SWEDES, EVEN HAD DERIVED EDAR 370A. THEY WERE EXACTLY LIKE MODERN DAY EAST ASIANS IN FACIAL FEATURES AND SOFT TISSUE COLORATION AND FORM. GENETICS CONFIRMS THIS. PHYSICAL EVIDENCE FROM EUROPE AND ASIA CONFIRMS THIS. IT'S NOT A MATTER FOR DEBATE.

First of all it is not Fu's paper, but that of Pääbo who led the study and David Reich who are both the corresponding authors. It is 40 000 years ago. When compared to modern populations Oase 1 was genetically half way between Hunter Gatherers and East Asians and they were/are genetically still very much apart (also depends which HGs, but nevertheless). MA-1 is classified as Mongoloid (although old classification), but was EDAR negative and said not to do much with East Asians compared with other groups. Until recently Kenwick man was thought to be Caucasoid. 40 000 years old physical classification are irrelevant in any case. You can't say he was East Asian although when compared to modern popuations he was closer to them than to modern Europeans. Nor Scandinavian WHs nor Oase individuals contributed much to modern Europeans in any case.

[Peterski]

Another reconstruction of Oase (if Grab the Gauge does not like that one posted above):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRaQyy1RWrk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRaQyy1RWrk

[LightHouse89]

what happened to the nightclubs? I prefer those but this time post half naked women or something and ask us to classify them.

[LightHouse89]

Another reconstruction of Oase (if Grab the Gauge does not like that one posted above):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRaQyy1RWrk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRaQyy1RWrk

how do they know he was bald?

[LightHouse89]

He was NOT East Asian...The only thing they wrote is:

"He is not more closely related to European HGs than to East Asians".

It's because he was Basal Eurasian. And also because:

"He carried (...) an extinct lineage of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N"

His lineage got extinct, he wasn't ancestral to East Asians.

==========================================

Oase 1 (though his skin colour was most certainly much darker):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wIXCiYCiiw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wIXCiYCiiw

Gauge the Boner didnt like this video because the character wasnt black enough for him. LOL :rofl_002:

Anyway I doubt he would have been that light and I doubt he would have been black like in the second video.

Anyway is it true that skin cancer developed back then or is that a more recent mutation in our genes?

[LightHouse89]

Read Qiaomei Fu's paper immediately and stop posting white trash anthropology. OASE 1 IS CLOSER TO MODERN DAY EAST ASIANS AND NATIVE AMERICANS THAN PRESENT DAY EUROPEANS. THE UPPER PALEOLITHIC POPULATION OF EUROPE INCLUDED MONGOLOIDS. OASE 1, LIKE MESOLITHIC SWEDES, EVEN HAD DERIVED EDAR 370A. THEY WERE EXACTLY LIKE MODERN DAY EAST ASIANS IN FACIAL FEATURES AND SOFT TISSUE COLORATION AND FORM. GENETICS CONFIRMS THIS. PHYSICAL EVIDENCE FROM EUROPE AND ASIA CONFIRMS THIS. IT'S NOT A MATTER FOR DEBATE.

Grab the Boner is mad. The caps and he said white trash anthropology.

'white trash anthropology'. What does that mean?

[Hevo]

MA-1 is classified as Mongoloid (although old classification),

Was there actually an advanced forensic facial reconstruction of MA-1 like the reconstruction the Bronze Age warrior in Poland?

http://archeowiesci.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Rekonstrukcja-komputerowa-600x220.jpg

[Grab the Gauge]

Another reconstruction of Oase (if Grab the Gauge does not like that one posted above):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRaQyy1RWrk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRaQyy1RWrk

That's better than the other one, but it's still shit; Oase 1 obviously has a narrower, much shorter nose, they made his about as broad as a full blown Neanderthal. They also made the face too long. I can make a better reconstruction using Playdough (looks like they used dog shit).

[Grab the Gauge]

Was there actually an advanced forensic facial reconstruction of MA-1 like the reconstruction the Bronze Age warrior in Poland?

http://archeowiesci.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Rekonstrukcja-komputerowa-600x220.jpg

There has never been a forensic reconstruction before but the Mal'ta-Buret people were skilled carvers and made many visuals of themselves out of ivory which can be seen at the link I have posted all over this forum. Physical descriptions indicating mongoloid bodytypes are also described in detail.

http://donsmaps.com/malta.html




Gauge the Boner didnt like this video because the character wasnt black enough for him. LOL

Anyway I doubt he would have been that light and I doubt he would have been black like in the second video.

He has east asian skin and lived outdoors, so he would resemble this in terms of darkness:

https://oromywhat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/tanned.jpg

In other words, black and brown.

[Insuperable]

Was there actually an advanced forensic facial reconstruction of MA-1 like the reconstruction the Bronze Age warrior in Poland?

http://archeowiesci.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Rekonstrukcja-komputerowa-600x220.jpg

I don't think so. At least I don't know about it.

[LightHouse89]

False

What matters? Well this depends.

Genetics tell us a lot. Phenotypes also tell us a lot. A variety of methods tell us a lot about who and what we are.

[LightHouse89]

Was there actually an advanced forensic facial reconstruction of MA-1 like the reconstruction the Bronze Age warrior in Poland?

http://archeowiesci.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Rekonstrukcja-komputerowa-600x220.jpg

Its absurd to think for a second that people past 10,000 years ago would look anything like contemporary Hominids [I avoid using fake pseudo science terms like humans or the human race]. Anyway we have changed drastically in the last 10,000 years and only a total moron would suggest otherwise.

Archaic hominids be them Neanderthals and Cro Magnons would have looked far different than us. Just look at the bones of many of them compared to modern hominids and the differences are amazing.

What I find most fascinating is that our skulls are much smaller today than in back then thousands of years ago. We have changed and will most likely continue to do so unless the Punctuated Equilibrium theory is correct [I have my doubts]. One thing is correct though about evolution is that speciation has not occurred drastically for us for a very very long time. I mean the only addition we have today and had back then is the thumb, something primates do not have yet they share 99.-% DNA with us. That's fascinating!

But back to the point. I laugh at people who get extremely 'well why does this archaic human not look sub sarahan enough or Nordic enough' blah blah... the fact is we look nothing like them today.

That's evolution.

http://discovermagazine.com/2009/mar/09-they-dont-make-homo-sapiens-like-they-used-to

A lot of that is covered in the book 10,000 year explosion which sadly was marked 'politically incorrect' despite being very convincing.

I remember some asshole was like 'well man evolution takes millions of year blah blah'... I said Yeah no shit but at which time does evolution stop? It doesn't as it keeps going on. Stephen Jay Gould the scientist behind the Punctuated Equilibrium theory suggestsed that Human Beings have not evolved in the last 200,000 and we have the same exact brains we did back then blah blah....

That's been proven false by many Natural Scientists, Biological discoveries and Anthropology.

Sadly honesty in the science field today is lacking due to political reasons within the Anthro field and Biology specifically... Many of the students of Gould are carrying on his Jewish pseudo science.

[LightHouse89]

There has never been a forensic reconstruction before but the Mal'ta-Buret people were skilled carvers and made many visuals of themselves out of ivory which can be seen at the link I have posted all over this forum. Physical descriptions indicating mongoloid bodytypes are also described in detail.

http://donsmaps.com/malta.html





He has east asian skin and lived outdoors, so he would resemble this in terms of darkness:

https://oromywhat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/tanned.jpg

In other words, black and brown.

Why is it that we have skin cancer today then? Im not picking fun of your post but that fascinates me to a degree. If archaic hominids had black skin back then, then why is it today so prevalent within 'eurasian' populations? Is it due to the loss of certain genes?

We know Chimps have light skin below the fur. So at some point genes for darker skin would have been present in Neanderthals and Cro Magnons.

Anyway modern Hominids are drastically different than 200,000 years ago.

[Proto-Shaman]

Most of European Y-DNA is Indo-European anyways unlike that of North Caucasians which are low in R1

https://media.giphy.com/media/EzGslrzAb5AxG/giphy.gif

[LightHouse89]

The social construct who claimed hominids have not changed in 200,000 years...

Proven wrong again!
http://discovermagazine.com/2012/jan-feb/59

[Hevo]

There has never been a forensic reconstruction before but the Mal'ta-Buret people were skilled carvers and made many visuals of themselves out of ivory which can be seen at the link I have posted all over this forum. Physical descriptions indicating mongoloid bodytypes are also described in detail.

http://donsmaps.com/malta.html


Very interesting but it doesn't mean that they actually looked Mongoloid. We need serious reconstructions to be certain.

[Guanimaa]

I wouldn't look out of place in West Africa, even though I'm from a New world country. As I was explaining to someone. In real life genetics don't mean much, its the phenotype people go on.

But on this forum the woman below would be seen as "new world white" despite her phenotype. In a classification thread(both from the same country), would be seen a simply Black and White.



http://i62.tinypic.com/34pj4lv.png
Genetically, I’m 86.6% Western European (specifically from the Orkney Islands in northern Scotland), 5.9% West African (from the Mandinka and/or Yoruba ethnic groups) and 7.4% Middle Eastern (Mozabite, Palestinian, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, and/or Jewish ethnicities.)

http://littlehousebytheferry.com/2013/11/02/bahamas-dna-project/


This lady would be guessed as West African despite of her grandmother:
http://i61.tinypic.com/ixwnd1.jpg






This Papuan girl would be seen as African in real life, but on this forum Melanesian:
http://www.augnet.org/p/Page1/images/W01s.jpg