Is the currently "accepted" theory of Ashkenazi genes, half Italian and half Levantine?

[Sikeliot]

It makes sense if so. If they do come from Levantine men who took Italian wives, mostly in northern and central Italy, and then spread into the rest of Europe, that explains why they plot in southern Italy genetically.

[Shah-Jehan]

it wouldn't make sense if it was Levantine men, since Jewish ancestry is matriarchal.

[Neon Knight]

Half north Italian according to Longbowman.

[spanish catalan]

Ashkenazi jews not is half central european?

[Sikeliot]

it wouldn't make sense if it was Levantine men, since Jewish ancestry is matriarchal.

It was not always this way though. Jews were first expelled to Italy, and it was mostly men who did not bring their wives, so they took Italian converts as wives.

[Gaston]

Ashkenazi Jews can't be taken separately from Sefardi and North African Jews because they have the same genesis, with only later divergence.

North/central Italian looks like one possible source because historically it makes sense (the Roman Empire helped the spread of Jews) but is not the only possibility. Greeks (mainland) are also a serious option because of the hellenistic past of Jews and Greek influence in hebrew. Southern France is also possible (genetically plausible), although less likely.

Ashkenazi Jews have later Central-Eastern European admixture but it's very small, while North African Jews have minor Berber admixture.



it wouldn't make sense if it was Levantine men, since Jewish ancestry is matriarchal.

It wasn't always this way, the Near East has been strongly patriarcal and mysoginistic for a while. But even a lot (most?) Jews and Israelis nowadays don't know that.

[oh-nahhh]

No, that's total rubbish.

[XenophobicPrussian]

it wouldn't make sense if it was Levantine men, since Jewish ancestry is matriarchal.
wat

Jewish ancestry is matriarchal in their own Religious and political(women raise the child mostly, so a Jewish mother means the kid was taught/indoctrinated/whatever you wanna call it into Judaism or Jewish values), obviously genetically Jewish ancestry is both from the male/female.

[Anglojew]

No. It's just a theory. I think that part of the Ashkenazi ethnogenesis certaining occured via Italkim Jews settling in Germany but I believe my Crimean Hypothesis was a secondary route:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?157939-Ashkenazi-Jews-A-Gothic-Scythian-Judean-Khazar-Hybrid-Population

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?74375-Are-Ashkenazi-Jews-A-Lost-East-Gothic-Tribe

This also explains genetics such as the high presence of the CCR5-Delta32 mutation in Ashkenazi Jews.

[Sikeliot]

Greeks (mainland) are also a serious option because of the hellenistic past of Jews and Greek influence in hebrew.

This is not a possibility because Ashkenazim do not have enough Baltic or NE European type admixture that is present at quite high rates in Greeks, most of their Northern affinities are shared with Western Europe, which rules out Greek as a source of admixture.

[Longbowman]

etc

Every single one of your silly theories is totally overridden by the high similarities between AJs and SJs even before anything else.


wat

Jewish ancestry is matriarchal in their own Religious and political(women raise the child mostly, so a Jewish mother means the kid was taught/indoctrinated/whatever you wanna call it into Judaism or Jewish values), obviously genetically Jewish ancestry is both from the male/female.

He means 'if having a Jewish dad doesn't make you Jewish, how could it be that Jews are descended from non-Jews?' which overlooks the possibility of conversion and the fact that until the Talmud was written in the first half of the first millennium Judaism was inherited patrilineally.

Better to be 'indoctrinated' in a culture of love and family than one of hatred and self-distrust. I've never met a native Northwestern European who spent time with all their cousins. You claim to be racially aware, but no WN organisations exist to offer alms and shelter to travelling fellow whites, no WN organisations ensure 'brother' WNs never have to sleep on the streets; your so-called pride is restricted to self-aggrandising behaviour, but you're a race, ie, a bunch of people with similar genes, not a tribe, ie, a bunch of people who live and die for each other and would gladly give the shirt off their back to a fellow tribesman in need. You people are cold as ice, and understand neither family nor kinship. Southern Euros are different though, especially Albanians and other traditional peoples, it's a Med thing, though they're still not the same. Eastern Euros tend to know their cousins but have very few of them, so it's more the diminishment of the nuclear family that forces them to extend familial ties.

[Sikeliot]

Every single one of your silly theories is totally overridden by the high similarities between AJs and SJs.

Which means Sephardim are also roughly half Italic, half Levantine (even though probably slightly more Levantine than Ashkenazim).

[Alessio]

I'll still call it mostly hypothetical still.

[Iltirbas]

Which means Sephardim are also roughly half Italic, half Levantine (even though probably slightly more Levantine than Ashkenazim).

Wouldn't such an assumption be inconsistent with the known history of Sephardi Jews and their main migratory route in ancient times?

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Interesting theory.

[Linet]

Then why Askenaj score so close to Greeks :hug2: and not with the Italians ? I mean....close doesnt even describe it....http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/s/siamese_twins-3481.gif
Still i am curious since this appear in every chart :icon_ask:

http://i.imgur.com/5jbkEdu.png

[Gaston]

This is not a possibility because Ashkenazim do not have enough Baltic or NE European type admixture that is present at quite high rates in Greeks, most of their Northern affinities are shared with Western Europe, which rules out Greek as a source of admixture.

Maybe it's more recent gene flow. What is sure is Greeks, even considering mainlanders only, exhibit an important variation, although much less than the Italian peninsula.



Wouldn't such an assumption be inconsistent with the known history of Sephardi Jews and their main migratory route in ancient times?

Not really. This question would apply better to North African Jews who, despite their known history and the very old presence of Jews in North Africa (older than in most of Europe), the second component of North African Jews's genepool is European and not North African (which comes last). This means the older Jewish community was absorbed by new comers from a place where Jews absorbed Europeans, somewhere in Southern Europe very likely.

[MisterGaga]

This is not a possibility because Ashkenazim do not have enough Baltic or NE European type admixture that is present at quite high rates in Greeks, most of their Northern affinities are shared with Western Europe, which rules out Greek as a source of admixture.
A genetic test on Romaniotes (Native Greek Jews) would probably resolve this question.

[Alessio]

Every single one of your silly theories is totally overridden by the high similarities between AJs and SJs even before anything else.



He means 'if having a Jewish dad doesn't make you Jewish, how could it be that Jews are descended from non-Jews?' which overlooks the possibility of conversion and the fact that until the Talmud was written in the first half of the first millennium Judaism was inherited patrilineally.

Better to be 'indoctrinated' in a culture of love and family than one of hatred and self-distrust. I've never met a native Northwestern European who spent time with all their cousins. You claim to be racially aware, but no WN organisations exist to offer alms and shelter to travelling fellow whites, no WN organisations ensure 'brother' WNs never have to sleep on the streets; your so-called pride is restricted to self-aggrandising behaviour, but you're a race, ie, a bunch of people with similar genes, not a tribe, ie, a bunch of people who live and die for each other and would gladly give the shirt off their back to a fellow tribesman in need. You people are cold as ice, and understand neither family nor kinship. Southern Euros are different though, especially Albanians and other traditional peoples, it's a Med thing, though they're still not the same. Eastern Euros tend to know their cousins but have very few of them, so it's more the diminishment of the nuclear family that forces them to extend familial ties.

North West Europeans weren't like this before the huge industrialisation and the fruition of the individualisation process; e.g. my Dutch family lived on a big farmland with their parents and one sibling before and maintained close contact with their family members and only few generations before also extended family members were maintained in a manner similar to present day southern Europe.

When I ask my grandparents about extended family (included nephews/nieces), they usually say that they don't really care about maintaining contact with extended family members and after my great grandparents died, slowly the family began to disintegrate to a point that only direct family members would meet at special occasions, and this seems normal for most Dutch people, but I always have been very different in this regard ( genetics perhaps?)

In Italy, especially in the north this traditional and collective way of living - connecting with extended family members is severely declining as well. These are just byproducts of ''liberal individualism'', but if we're comparing both hierarchical and social systems I think that individualism wins over collectivism when taking in consideration the society as a whole from the bottom all the way to the top (e.g. equality, progression, individual achievements etc.) but the negative side effects for me are not weighing up the the general societal benefits - for this I'd choose for a nuance rather than both extremes.

The negative side effects of family oriented people are: tend to care less for people outside their family/circle, nepotism, corruption in extreme cases, and less potential to economically develop in a capitalistic society.

[Sikeliot]

Maybe it's more recent gene flow. What is sure is Greeks, even considering mainlanders only, exhibit an important variation, although much less than the Italian peninsula.

But there is no proof genetically of Greeks being close to Ashkenazis.

Anyway the bottom of the Greek cluster in that chart Linet posted that overlaps with southern Italians and Ashkenazis is clearly the Aegean islanders. Mainland Greeks are those toward the top of the cluster intersecting with the rest of the Balkans, and it seems unfathomable to me that Ashkenazim could be part Greek without having NE European affinities.

[Sikeliot]

Then why Askenaj score so close to Greeks :hug2: and not with the Italians ? I mean....close doesnt even describe it....http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/s/siamese_twins-3481.gif
Still i am curious since this appear in every chart :icon_ask:

http://i.imgur.com/5jbkEdu.png

Southern Italians, Ashkenazis, and Greek islanders plot together. Mainlander Greeks are those intersecting with Kosovars and the top of the Greek plot that is not overlapping with Italy.

[Longbowman]

Which means Sephardim are also roughly half Italic, half Levantine (even though probably slightly more Levantine than Ashkenazim).

Plus minor Iberian. It's very significant especially amongst Western Sephardics (Marranos) and above all Belmonte Jews.

[Longbowman]

North West Europeans weren't like this before the huge industrialisation and the fruition of the individualisation process; e.g. my Dutch family lived on a big farmland with their parents and one sibling before and maintained close contact with their family members and only few generations before also extended family members were maintained in a manner similar to present day southern Europe.

When I ask my grandparents about extended family (included nephews/nieces), they usually say that they don't really care about maintaining contact with extended family members and after my great grandparents died, slowly the family began to disintegrate to a point that only direct family members would meet at special occasions, and this seems normal for most Dutch people, but I always have been very different in this regard ( genetics perhaps?)

In Italy, especially in the north this traditional and collective way of living - connecting with extended family members is severely declining as well. These are just byproducts of ''liberal individualism'', but if we're comparing both hierarchical and social systems I think that individualism wins over collectivism when taking in consideration the society as a whole from the bottom all the way to the top (e.g. equality, progression, individual achievements etc.) but the negative side effects for me are not weighing up the the general societal benefits this I'd choose for a nuance rather than both extremes.

The negative side effects of family oriented people tend to care less for people outside their family/circle.

+1. The West has almost irreparably destroyed its familiarity. Jews have retained it. Of course, tribes are usually insular, but being part of one is overall beneficially, if misunderstood by both liberals and western WNs.

A Jew, or South Italian or Albanian saying they don't care about maintaining contact with their cousins or nephews would probably kill their parents on the spot. The same is true for many third worlders.

[Sikeliot]

Plus minor Iberian. It's very significant especially amongst Western Sephardics (Marranos) and above all Belmonte Jews.

Do you see any evidence of Greek admixture in Ashkenazim or Sephardim? Whether you believe it is due to Slavic or Indo-European input, Greeks have too large of the component we label "Balto-Slavic", "NE European", etc. compared to Ashkenazis for me to think there is any Greek admixture, unless you would propose such affinities came to Greeks later via Slavs which I know you do not agree.

[Longbowman]

Do you see any evidence of Greek admixture in Ashkenazim or Sephardim? Whether you believe it is due to Slavic or Indo-European input, Greeks have too large of the component we label "Balto-Slavic", "NE European", etc. compared to Ashkenazis for me to think there is any Greek admixture, unless you would propose such affinities came to Greeks later via Slavs which I know you do not agree.

Sorry, why are you asking me this? I didn't even mention Greeks. Regardless Greek admixture is not impossible.

[Sikeliot]

Sorry, why are you asking me this? I didn't even mention Greeks. Regardless Greek admixture is not impossible.

Because you would know better than anyone else here since you know genetics. How could Ashkenazim have large scale Greek admixture without a Balto-Slavic element? For the same reason I have come to question if southern Italians have Greek admixture either.

[Alessio]

+1. The West has almost irreparably destroyed its familiarity. Jews have retained it. Of course, tribes are usually insular, but being part of one is overall beneficially, if misunderstood by both liberals and western WNs.

A Jew, or South Italian or Albanian saying they don't care about maintaining contact with their cousins or nephews would probably kill their parents on the spot. The same is true for many third worlders.

The extreme form of individualism in my family and in North Western Europe in general has never felt really natural to me - I've preached for years about this issue. Also it seems more natural for my other family members than for me as well. Although I must add that having missed part of this familiarity could be due to both direct and indirect environmental influences along with harsh lessons about the bitterness of the lack of trust one should have to their direct family members, which is essential for a person to become healthy later in life.

A good example of a society with both a collectivistic character and still a relatively strong economy, would be ''Japan''.

[Longbowman]

Because you would know better than anyone else here since you know genetics. How could Ashkenazim have large scale Greek admixture without a Balto-Slavic element? For the same reason I have come to question if southern Italians have Greek admixture either.

Doesn't have to be mainland Greek, probably wasn't. Crete had a huge Jewish population back in the day. I'm not sold on the idea btw.

[Longbowman]

The extreme for of individualism in my family and in North Western Europe in general has never felt really natural to me - and I've preached for years about this issue; it seems more natural for my other family members than for me as well. Although I must add that having missed part of this familiarity could be due both direct and indirect environmental influences along with harsh lessons about the bitterness of the lack of trust one should have to their direct family members, which is essential for a person to become healthy later in life.

A good example of a society with both a collectivistic character and still a relatively strong economy, would be ''Japan''.

Japan is a terrible example of a functioning society.

[Selurong]

Japan is a terrible example of a functioning society.

I don't think so. Japan is a good, orderly and pleasing society.

But I hate them for their imperialism and their terrible blood-bath in our capital.

But objectively speaking, they're quite nice and developed.

[Sikeliot]

Doesn't have to be mainland Greek, probably wasn't. Crete had a huge Jewish population back in the day. I'm not sold on the idea btw.

If most of the European influence in Ashkenazim is Cretan, then they would plot further south than they do. Half Cretan and half Levantine would be like Cypriots probably.

[Longbowman]

I don't think so. Japan is a good, orderly and pleasing society.

But I hate them for their imperialism and their terrible blood-bath in our capital.

But objectively speaking, they're quite nice and developed.

One in three forty year olds is a version, stagnant economy for 20-25 years, highest debt per capita, lowest birth rates in the region, lowest level of sexual satisfaction, degenerate culture exports, degenerate culture.

But nice food and decent infrastructure.