Are Norwegians the most Cro-Magnon?

[Pallantides]

I always thought these Cro-Magnon reconstructions looked very Norwegian
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/stuff/cro-magnon1.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/stuff/cro-magnon2.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/stuff/cro-magnon3.jpg

Norwegians:
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00732/Grete_Faremo_Gret_7326424x3.jpg
http://fotball.adressa.no/multimedia/archive/00077/16x9FrodeJohnsen_77743a.jpg
http://www.til.no/var/storage/images/media2/mediabank/mats-reginiussen/104804-1-nor-NO/Mats-Reginiussen_bildespesial_big.jpg
http://www.godset.no/filarkiv/nyheter_thumbs/3744full_FrerdrikN.JPG
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/monica1.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/SteinarB205_99938a.jpg
http://www.monssen.no/rosenborg/media/2004/h103_l.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2517/kventype.jpg
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1856/vaagetype1.jpg
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3421/vaagetype2.jpg
http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/troe043.jpg

[Gatillo]

If are a majority of people in Norway with this form of eyes and forehead....

But in Spain are also common these fronts and sunken eyes, style Frankenstein my own brothers (not me) are exactly those facial features.

[Äike]

Most Scandinavians derive from Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnons and Nordids are a minority.

Finns are the most Cro-Magnon, btw.

[Tomasz]

Well it depends on how do you define "CM" I guess...

If we define "CM" today as Cromagnid (Bruenn, Faelid) and predominantly Cromagnid (more extreme Tronder examples) then I think Norway is one of the most "CM" countries today. But some people add Osteuropids and Borrebys to this category since they're Cromagnid-derived (if someone would be very stubborn, then he/she could even add Alpinoids). Then I guess Finland could be first...

[Äike]

Well it depends on how do you define "CM" I guess...

If we define "CM" today as Cromagnid (Bruenn, Faelid) and predominantly Cromagnid (more extreme Tronder examples) then I think Norway is one of the most "CM" countries today. But some people add Osteuropids and Borrebys to this category since they're Cromagnid-derived (if someone would be very stubborn, then he/she could even add Alpinoids). Then I guess Finland could be first...

Northern-Europeans are the most Cro-Magnon people and I have read from somewhere, that Finnish skulls resemble the ancient Cro-Magnon skulls the most.

[Tomasz]

Northern-Europeans are the most Cro-Magnon people and I have read from somewhere, that Finnish skulls resemble the ancient Cro-Magnon skulls the most.

Yes, I've heard it once from my friend from Finland. He was also saying that Finns are the most Cro-magnon but I don't know the exact arguments, why. :wink

[Pallantides]

I'd like to see some Finnish examples also?:)


More Norwegians:
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/The%20Schreinerske%20Collection/homme1.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/The%20Schreinerske%20Collection/signe.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Hallingdal/hallingdal56.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nesset/nesset1.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Norge/JohsEiknes.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2654/kvinnefranesset.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Norge/AslakJvers.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Sogn/sogn1.jpghttp://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5653/norsksoldat.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Norge/jakt.jpg(The two men wearing shorts are German tourists)

[Mordid]

Norwegian are mostly partially CM (Tronder) and i dont think Norwegian are mostly CM except Finn.

[Pallantides]

Norwegian are mostly partially CM (Tronder) and i dont think Norwegian are mostly CM except Finn.

Show some examples please, there is all this talk about Finns being most similar to Cro-Magnon but I'd like to see some examples of these Finnish Cro-Magnons.


Brünn, Dalo-Falids, Tydal(Paleo-Atlantid) and Borreby's are far more common in Scandinavia than in Finland.

[Jaska]

Here it is about Finns and cromagnons:

http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samples/niskanenbalticcorrected.pdf

Other northern European people are quite close, too. There are a plenty of old pictures of Finns in books, and most of those Norwegians look very Finn-like to me.

Jean Sibelius:
http://www.geh.org/ne/str085/m198130600001.jpg

Peter Franzen is a bit like that third cro:
http://static.iltalehti.fi/viihde/franzen170709STL_vi.jpg

Those cro faces could be from anywhere in the northern half of Europe, I think.

[Hweinlant]

http://i33.tinypic.com/2vvox1g.jpg

Crom-Magnon1 and Finnish actor Pertti Koivula

[Aviane]

If are a majority of people in Norway with this form of eyes and forehead....

But in Spain are also common these fronts and sunken eyes, style Frankenstein my own brothers (not me) are exactly those facial features.

Do you really mean this or you are just messing about ? :confused: :(

[Aviane]

Show some examples please, there is all this talk about Finns being most similar to Cro-Magnon but I'd like to see some examples of these Finnish Cro-Magnons.


Brünn, Dalo-Falids, Tydal(Paleo-Atlantid) and Borreby's are far more common in Scandinavia than in Finland.

True I've seen more of these types in Scandianavian countries than Finland although Finland types are usually just mainly Baltids.

[Gatillo]

Do you really mean this or you are just messing about ? :confused: :(

¿?¿?¿

[Pallantides]

Norway's defence minister Grete Faremo is the most Cro-Magnid female I have ever seen:
http://www.abcnyheter.no/files/imagecache/wide/2010-03/faremo_798.jpg

[Jack B]

Yes she has quite strong features, which are the most CM countries in general besides Norway?

[Sahson]

If Bruenns and Borrebys were considered CM then England could be considered very Cro-Magnon too. We have quite alot of Bruenn stock. A borreby below...

http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/passtheremote/emma-bunton-20060116-102752.jpg

[Aviane]

If Bruenns and Borrebys were considered CM then England could be considered very Cro-Magnon too. We have quite alot of Bruenn stock. A borreby below...

http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/passtheremote/emma-bunton-20060116-102752.jpg

I'm from England too and I do see alot of Cro-magnons around here who look just like that but sometimes their is also variation among them.

Plus this woman could also be from Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Belgium or parts of France.

[Sahson]

I'm from England too and I do see alot of Cro-magnons around here who look just like that but sometimes their is also variation among them.

Plus this woman could also be from Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Belgium or parts of France.

Yes the Ben-ne-lux region is very CM with quite abit of alpine admixture thrown in France, and I suppose the other areas, though I am not certain about those places.

Bruenns, Borreby are very common in my area of England.

[Pallantides]

http://img.skysports.com/08/04/218x298/John_Arne_Riise_812213.jpg
http://www.riisnes.com/Hakon_2.jpg
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2262/einarmagnuskvikne.jpg
http://www.freidig.no/images/Krogvold.jpg
http://media.aftenposten.no/archive/01015/ELITESERIEN_FOTBAL_1015520f.jpg
http://www.nrk.no/contentfile/file/1.6502117!f169CropList/img650x367.jpg
http://static.vg.no/leonora/edrumbilder/1145612730591_291.jpg
http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2007/01/17/1169033182843_810.jpg
http://planportal.mediedager.no/gjester/bilder/Niels%20Roine%20web%202.JPG
http://dalane-tidende.no/images/stories/2010/07jul/VAMP%202010_2.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3627/3327752285_a12943b7dd_o.jpg
http://www.stortinget.no/Personimages/PersonImages_ExtraLarge/KKK_ekstrastort.jpg
http://oslopuls.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00057/_26112008151915_jpg_57520d.jpg
http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2009/01/08/1231399007039_900.jpg
http://www.drammensteater.no/images/204.jpg
http://www.aftenbladet.no/archive/00269/Marit_Nybakk_269348a.jpg
http://g.api.no/obscura/www.ba.no/778x778r/03331/1278790619000_Mjelde-2048_3331551778x778r.jpg
http://www.tipsgaming.com/prod_images/doc_3_4863.jpg
http://bulmeurt.uib.no:8080/retorikk/media/bilde/bilde482.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/GeirRed.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/AsleSkjong.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/anne-karin_l_iversen.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/160412.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/JanIF.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/KarolineSgaard.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/Else-MartheSrlieLybekk.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/staale_granerud.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/FridtjovSheim.jpghttp://fotball.adressa.no/multimedia/archive/00011/Michael_Kleppe_Jamtf_11775a.jpghttp://www.haugesundsdagblad.no/bentethorsen.jpghttp://www.brann.no/sitefiles/1/import/09profil_VAAGANMOEN.jpg

[Agrippa]

I'd say Norway is a country with a high proportion of Cromagnoid and Cromagnoid-derived variants in which you can find many very typical variants, yet it is not generally so and you can find obviously a lot of Aurignacoid (in Norway mostly Nordoid) variants too.

I think there are areas in Europe which are more Cromagnoid, if including the derivatives, but the typical unreduced and rugged, more classic Cromagnoid faces, are very common in the North West in general, from Norway to Ireland.

The North East of Europe might be more Cromagnoid if including the derivatives and talking about averages, but they don't have more of the "relatively unchanged" rugged, relatively unreduced and longer headed variants. These are more common in Norway, also common in the British Isles and regions in Germany.

[Äike]

I'd say Norway is a country with a high proportion of Cromagnoid and Cromagnoid-derived variants in which you can find many very typical variants, yet it is not generally so and you can find obviously a lot of Aurignacoid (in Norway mostly Nordoid) variants too.

I think there are areas in Europe which are more Cromagnoid, if including the derivatives, but the typical unreduced and rugged, more classic Cromagnoid faces, are very common in the North West in general, from Norway to Ireland.

The North East of Europe might be more Cromagnoid if including the derivatives and talking about averages, but they don't have more of the "relatively unchanged" rugged, relatively unreduced and longer headed variants. These are more common in Norway, also common in the British Isles and regions in Germany.

Leaving out the Cro-Magnon derivatives, Finns still resemble the ancient Cro-Magnon skulls, more than any other Europeans. Thus Finns and probably Scandinavians are more Cro-Magnon than the people of the British isles, although there are a lot of UP-people there too.

Finns have retained their Northern-European, Upper Paleolithic language, thus it's logical that they are the most Cro-Magnon people in Europe and also have the highest percentage of ancient Upper Paleolithic genes. ;)

[Pallantides]

Kristin Lie
http://spindel.oslonett.no/weblisher/cache/x340_b930457f7632882c75724e43fa262499HKstafetten06 _Krsitin_Lie.jpg
http://www.tronderfotball.no/upload/ukerevyen/konv_kristin_lie.jpg
http://kondismirror.edbc.no/bilder/multi/2005/NM-triathlon/Kristin%20Lie%20stripper.jpg

[Agrippa]

Leaving out the Cro-Magnon derivatives, Finns still resemble the ancient Cro-Magnon skulls, more than any other Europeans. Thus Finns and probably Scandinavians are more Cro-Magnon than the people of the British isles, although there are a lot of UP-people there too.

Finns have retained their Northern-European, Upper Paleolithic language, thus it's logical that they are the most Cro-Magnon people in Europe and also have the highest percentage of ancient Upper Paleolithic genes. ;)

Don't come up with the Finno-Ugrian continuity theory :rolleyes:

Also in Finland there seem to be more Nordoids vs. Cromagnoid derivatives rather than classic Cromagnid variants. Most longer headed individuals have also narrower faces and other Atlanto-Nordoid traits.

Finland is more of an Osteuropid (derivative) - Nordoid country.

[Äike]

Don't come up with the Finno-Ugrian continuity theory :rolleyes:

Also in Finland there seem to be more Nordoids vs. Cromagnoid derivatives rather than classic Cromagnid variants. Most longer headed individuals have also narrower faces and other Atlanto-Nordoid traits.

Finland is more of an Osteuropid (derivative) - Nordoid country.


Of modern nationalities, Finns are closest to Cro-Magnons in terms of anthropological measurements.

Here's a 33 page PDF (http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samples/niskanenbalticcorrected.pdf), if you don't believe me:

The Origin of the Baltic-Finns from the
Physical Anthropological Point of View (http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samples/niskanenbalticcorrected.pdf)

There's only 1 question. Did the Finno-Ugrics arrive here 6000 years ago or 11 000 years ago, when looking at anthropology and genetics then I get an impression that it's 11 000 years ago.

[Agrippa]

Here's a 33 page PDF (http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samples/niskanenbalticcorrected.pdf), if you don't believe me:

The Origin of the Baltic-Finns from the
Physical Anthropological Point of View (http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samples/niskanenbalticcorrected.pdf)

There's only 1 question. Did the Finno-Ugrics arrive here 6000 years ago or 11 000 years ago, when looking at anthropology and genetics then I get an impression that it's 11 000 years ago.

"Finns" are a population, if you combine the data of a robust Baltid and a Nordoid, you get something close to a Cromagnid quite often I guess, but in reality this are still Osteuropid and Nordid variants primarily.

That is one of the main reasons why I think typology is so important and can't be substituted completely by just using mean values.

What is the mean value in a Celtic population which, if using the individual analysis, was primarily Nordoid and Alpinoid.

A "mesomesomorphic population"...

Yet if you look at the warrior graves, they were mostly robust-tall leptodolichomorphs (Atlanto-Nordoid) and not "smaller mesomesomorphs..."

As for this great paper, it states things like:

These old assumptions are incorrect. In reality, all Finno-
Ugrians of Europe (the Baltic-Finns, Saami, Volga-Finns,
Permian-Finns, and Hungarians) are phenotypically and
genetically typical Europeans.


Epicanthic eyefolds, flat faces, coarse straight hair, and other Mongoloid traits are not encountered among them more frequently than
among other Europeans (Coon 1939, Brues 1977).

Well, he must have looked "at other Saami" then, especially if the Lappid core type is concerned.

And Eastbaltids too show their traits more clearly and don't look just like the real Cromagnoid variants like you can find them f.e. among Norwegians.

Also that the Austrians are as much Mongoliform as the Saami is a bad joke to everyone knowing the reality, even Dienekes mentioned this immediately when reading the paper.

One has just to look at how the paper deals with the Saami to know that something went wrong...

Obviously Finns have a very large Cromagnoid derived proportion, but also a strong Nordid part and the Eastbaltid subtype of the Osteuropid racial type is really a deviation from the Europid norm obviously - not that this is such a catastrophy, it's just a fact...

[Pallantides]

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nesset/nesset17.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/The%20Borgen%20Collection/borgen174.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Norge/agot.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Norge/brud.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Norge/jar1.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nesset/nesset10.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nesset/nesset42.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/The%20Borgen%20Collection/borgen1426.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Norge/kvinneifolkedrakt.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Norge/speleman3.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Telemark/telemark75.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Telemark/astridbakke.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Trondheim/selbu15.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Ole_Gabriel_Ueland.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Valdres/valdres18.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Valdres/valdres28.jpg

[Hweinlant]

The North East of Europe might be more Cromagnoid if including the derivatives and talking about averages, but they don't have more of the "relatively unchanged" rugged, relatively unreduced and longer headed variants. These are more common in Norway, also common in the British Isles and regions in Germany.

Blaa blaa bla blabla .. What are you trying to say ? More Western Europe -> longer skull -> more dolichocephalic.

Was it really that hard ? Your theology is simply build on shorter and longer skulls. Now, do you actually now, for fact, that Scots have longer skulls than Norwegians. Do Norwegians have longer skulls than Finns ? Do Finns have longer skulls than Irish ?

Provide data, as of 2010, or near by. Thanx.

[Korbis]

All what i know is norwegians tend to have wider jaw bone and skulls, its not very hard to spot escandinavian "natives".


I´m not an expert but this guy cries caveman for me, or something.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_L2MwiWHpg7A/S_07y5lMLkI/AAAAAAAAE3k/ypXzmknQ_fQ/s1600/Michael-Nyqvist_439115q.jpg

[Pallantides]

Michael Nyqvist have Italian ancestry.:)

As a baby, he was adopted from an orphanage and his biological father is Italian.

His mother might have been Swedish though.


He played the Swedish/Saami preacher Lars Levi Læstadius in the movie Kautokeino Opprøret(Kautokeino Rebellion)
http://www.rushprint.no/adm/imgnews/1443/Kautokeino_stort.jpg
http://olehorvli.com/tidende/files/elin_horvli_michael_nyquist.jpg

[Aviane]

Leaving out the Cro-Magnon derivatives, Finns still resemble the ancient Cro-Magnon skulls, more than any other Europeans. Thus Finns and probably Scandinavians are more Cro-Magnon than the people of the British isles, although there are a lot of UP-people there too.

Finns have retained their Northern-European, Upper Paleolithic language, thus it's logical that they are the most Cro-Magnon people in Europe and also have the highest percentage of ancient Upper Paleolithic genes. ;)

Finns being Cro-Magnon is definitely not much of a thread because I've seen many already on this thread to convince me that they match up to the type.

[Pallantides]

Daniel Berg Hestad - height: 1.83m
http://fotball.bt.no/multimedia/archive/00074/16x9_Berg_Hestad_74483a.jpg
http://www.nrk.no/contentfile/file/1.6598986!f169CropList/img650x367.jpg
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00209/Daniel_Berg_Hestad_209646c.jpg
http://fotball.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00075/16x9BergHestad_75397a.jpg

Christian Gauseth - height: 1.89m
http://fotball.adressa.no/multimedia/spillere/Christian_Gauseth_b.jpghttp://fotball.aftenbladet.no/multimedia/archive/00081/Christian_Gauseth_81872a.jpghttp://fotball.fvn.no/multimedia/archive/00122/gauseth_122041x.jpg
http://www.jbl.no/stream_file.asp?iEntityId=41332

[Agrippa]

Daniel Berg Hestad seems to be somewhat more Nordoid influenced, but both are pred. Cromagnid, rather Dalofaelid, even if Christian Gauseth looks somewhat infantile in the first image, he doesn't as much in the others. I just wondered about him being actually taller than Hestad, would have guessed otherwise.

[Pallantides]

I just wondered about him being actually taller than Hestad, would have guessed otherwise.

According to wikipedia he is taller
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gauseth
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Berg_Hestad


Gauseth is 26 years old, while Hestad is 35 years old.

[Don]

http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2007/01/17/1169033182843_810.jpg

¡JODER!:eek:

[Mordid]

Pallantides, he seem more robust than average Nordid.

[Sebbo]

I see you mentioned the height of individuals,do you think there is a correlation between how CM someone is , and their stature ( width as well) or is it mainly a facial thing , I also read that Finns are the modern population that is closest to the early Cro-magnons, but who knows .

[Raikaswinþs]

Basques argue the same thing. Although to be fair, we would argue that we are a breed of Neanderthals and forest trolls if that would make us more different

[Curtis24]

Certainly wide swathes of Norwegian territory are mostly Cromagnid, such as areas in the west coast; however, the most populous areas in the Southeast trend more to Nordid. Cromagnids probably don't make a majority in any European country.

[Pallantides]

I'm from south east Norway myself and in my opinion Nordids are not more common here than Cro-Magnid derived individuals.

[Äike]

Certainly wide swathes of Norwegian territory are mostly Cromagnid, such as areas in the west coast; however, the most populous areas in the Southeast trend more to Nordid.

I don't think so.


Cromagnids probably don't make a majority in any European country.

Well, borealized Cro-Magnons/subraces deriving from Cro-Magnon are a majority in all Northern-European countries.

[Curtis24]

Well, borealized Cro-Magnons/subraces deriving from Cro-Magnon are a majority in all Northern-European countries.

Keep in mind, "Cromagnid" is a specific taxonomic category which doesn't include many derived Cro-magnon races that are brachycephal, such as Alpinids and Baltids. So while I agree that Cro-magnon derived types are extremely common in Europe, actual unreduced Cromagnids aren't as common.


I'm from south east Norway myself and in my opinion Nordids are not more common here than Cro-Magnid derived individuals.

Well, I'm not going to argue with you. You would know better than me, living there. I was only going by the historical settlement of Norway and older charts showing rates of physical traits.

[Ugo Tognazzi]

Not long ago i suggested to a friend a relation between ''cro magnoid'' scandinavians and the Maglemosian people (Danish Mesolithic)

using a web translator from the related wiki page in Danish
(http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglemosekultur)



Anthropology

No known individual skeletons of people from maglemosetid: until now the oldest is the skeleton of a woman from Koelbjerg near Vissenbjerg on Funen, about 25 years old and about 155 cm tall, dated to ca. 8,000 BC Other skeletons known from the Køge Bay and the settlement Holmegård V Holmegaard bog in southern Zealand, these dated to ca. 7,000 BC Maglemosefolket belonged to Homo sapiens sapiens, modern man's race, but tend to be heavier built. The bones were strong, bones of the body relatively short and broad. The skull was longer, less tall and wide a later and had big eyebrows, powerful chewing muscles, prominent jaw, large teeth characterized by wear - presumably they have been used as tools.


NorthWestern Europe at the time (late Mesolithic) was slightly different according to this map:
http://neveryetmelted.com/wp-images/Doggerland.jpg
http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080709/images/454151a-i4.0.jpg

Maglemosian has been associated with Oberkassel (German Mesolithic) which was found near Bonn (Arthur Keith)
http://books.google.it/books?id=nCxEDWs8kwgC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=maglemose+skull&source=bl&ots=3AMcVmuH9J&sig=VqdzOS2mjRu37c3d92tOPPBkBW4&hl=it&ei=dCXgTKTSE4efOvKYgJgP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=maglemose%20skull&f=false

Oberkassel bei Bonn (top) posted on this fora by Agrippa
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4227/oberkassellcombecapelletc8.jpg

So it would be reasonable that the fjords of coastal Norway could represent a natural boundary in which this type might have somehow survived without too many external influences.

Before making any in-depth accurate comparison i think it's enough to say that just the aspect of the Riise brothers (John Arne and Bjorn Helge) is certainly suggestive of what Mesolithic man might have looked in the north 10.000 B.C.

Another thing would be to find out why a similar type is popular in Ireland too.

http://www.forzaroma.info/images/stories/Riise/riise_ppiano.jpg
http://www.lsk.no/arch/_img/w400/9083919.jpg

[Aviane]

Ugo Tognazzi nice work here overall.

Cromagnoid Scanians and Maglemosian people who probably of been the basis for the types found in Norway in particular today and also the skulls could be part of the proof.

People like the Riise brothers could be very well linked to the types found in Ireland known mainly as the Brünn type which are close.

[Ugo Tognazzi]

Thanks ^

Norwegians and Irish are also associated by the presence of red/rufous hair (sometimes curly as I observed even on Norwegians) rufousity associated with this type seems to drop once in Sweden and Finland.

[Erik]

The ancient inhabitants of the Canarian Islands, the Guanchos, had the same skull
shape as the Cro-Magnons had. The Guanchos used to have red/hair hair with blue
eyes like the West-Norwegians. See the redhaired Norwegian man. Maybe this is a prove
that the ancient Cro-Magnons had fair/red hair with blue eyes?
Which haplogroup had the Maglemosian people from Denmark? Maybe I and R1b?

[Tomasz]

Maybe this is a prove
that the ancient Cro-Magnons had fair/red hair with blue eyes?

On the one hand, modern largely unreduced Cro-Magnid variants are very fair and often have red/reddish hair. Just look at Dalo-Falids and Bruenns. The latter have the largest percentages of redheads from all phenotypes.

On the other hand there are also even more archaic (but not that widespread) Cro-Magnid types, so called Paleo-Atlantids. They can be met in British Isles ocasionally or in Scandinavia (especially Norway; so called Tydal type). They are heavily pigmented with black hair.

[Don]

The ancient inhabitants of the Canarian Islands, the Guanchos, had the same skull
shape as the Cro-Magnons had. The Guanchos used to have red/hair hair with blue
eyes like the West-Norwegians. See the redhaired Norwegian man. Maybe this is a prove
that the ancient Cro-Magnons had fair/red hair with blue eyes?
Which haplogroup had the Maglemosian people from Denmark? Maybe I and R1b?

Guanches.

[Karl der Große]

Currently I would say the French-Bretons.

[whirlwind]

Awesome. Well now I see why you have placed me as rather Norwegian looking Pallantides.

[Mordid]

Awesome. Well now I see why you have placed me as rather Norwegian looking Pallantides.

You aren't exactly CM. ;)

[whirlwind]

You aren't exactly CM. ;)

When I take the average of all classifications that I've been given on the fora over the years, the average is CM :thumb001:

[Arne]

You aren't exactly CM. ;)

:rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

[Pallantides]

http://linnmaria.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/bogaroglinn2.jpg?w=550http://www.gaysir.no/grafikk/artikkelbilder/Uteliv_inneliv3/HanneBjornevik_SAK1.jpg
http://fotball.rbnett.no/multimedia/archive/00127/rindar_y1_127121o.jpghttp://fotball.smp.no/multimedia/archive/00088/Aar_y_88542a.JPGhttp://fotball.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00127/woods_127241o.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8114/hahayhr.jpg
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2004/09/05/harn.jpg
http://www.kon-tiki.no/Images/ngl_challenge2010.jpg
http://fotball.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00112/henriksen_112396o.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6480/enslaved1.jpg

[Fortis in Arduis]

I thought that Finns were the most CM.

[Mordid]

Nope. Russian are the most CM.

[Arne]

What about Herbert Grönemeyer ?
http://www.songtexte-kostenlos.com/img/photos/a8832herbert-groenemeyer.gif

[Agrippa]

http://fotball.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00112/henriksen_112396o.jpg

This guy is a good example for a progressive Cromagnid/Dalofaelid.

[Pallantides]

Arild Rønsen
http://gfx.nrk.no/ARK0E--1AmhPQ83jzbKl_gQNiJvptOWsCznD1DVlSxdg.jpghttp://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00779/arild_ronsen_670_779961a.jpg

[Äike]

I thought that Finns were the most CM.

They are, I already pointed this out a few pages earlier.

[Pallantides]

Finns have Uralic and even ancient Siberian admixture, Lithuanians are more pure UP European than anyone else.

[Äike]

Finns have Uralic and even Siberian admixture

Finns are Uralic... But I do not get your point about the Siberian admixture. Do you mean that Finns have Saami influence, while the Saami have Samoyed influence and the Samoyeds are Siberians?


Lithuanians are more pure UP European than anyone else.

We are talking about anthropology and basing such claims on some researches which were made as a hobby, not on a professional level, isn't a good idea.

[Guapo]

Hail Iceland.

[Pallantides]

Finns are Uralic... But I do not get your point about the Siberian admixture. Do you mean that Finns have Saami influence, while the Saami have Samoyed influence and the Samoyeds are Siberians?


Yes, neither Finns or Saami make good candidates becuase of obvious admixture, this don't mean I don't view them as European though.



We are talking about anthropology and basing such claims on some researches which were made as a hobby, not on a professional level, isn't a good idea.

It's been in discussion that Davide's work will be included in Scientific journal.

People like Dienekes and Davide have done far more than many of these professional researchers, many of their methodes are the same but they are far less PC.

[Äike]

Yes, neither Finns or Saami make good candidates becuase of obvious admixture, this don't mean I don't view them as European though.



It's been in discussion that Davide's work will be included in Scientific journal.

People like Dienekes and Davide have done far more than many of these professional researchers, many of their methodes are the same but they are far less PC.


Of modern nationalities, Finns are closest to Cro-Magnons in terms of anthropological measurements.

http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samples/niskanenbalticcorrected.pdf

[/debate]

[Arne]

Yes karl.
As i´d looked uppon the Norwegian Threads, it can´t be True they´re the most Cro-Magnon.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16460&page=6
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21821
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21814
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21793
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21791

[Pallantides]

Yes karl.
As i´d look uppon the Norwegian Threads, it can´t be True they´re the most Cro-Magnon.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16460&page=6
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21821
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21814
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21793
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21791

Apart from the Nordids, Trønders(who are Cro-Mag+Nordid) and Lappoid influnced indivduals, the majority look North Cro-Magnid.

[Äike]

The majority of Northern-Europeans derive from Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnons. But Finns have retained their native Northern-European/Upper Paleolithic language, thus for obvious reasons, they are the most Cro-Magnon.

[Arne]

Apart from the Nordids, Trønders(who are Cro-Mag+Nordid) and Lappoid influnced indivduals, the majority look North Cro-Magnid.

30 percent of your Photos look Clearly Cromagnid, but the other seem to be borealized (reduced Cromagnon).
They can´t be referred as "most Cromagnon"

[Pallantides]

30 percent of your Photos look Clearly Cromagnid, but the other seem to be borealized (reduced Cromagnon).
They can´t be referred as "most Cromagnon"

well then the Finns are screwed:D
So who do you suggest have the most unreduced Cro-Magnon's?

[Äike]

well then the Finns are screwed:D
So who do you suggest have the most unreduced Cro-Magnon's?

Nope, the Finns aren't screwed.

Reread this sentence.


Of modern nationalities, Finns are closest to Cro-Magnons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon) in terms of anthropological measurements.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Cro-Magnon.jpg/509px-Cro-Magnon.jpg
The original "Old man of Crô-Magnon", Musée de l'Homme, Paris

[Pallantides]

I remember reading that some Cro Magnon remains they tested belonged to mtDNA N* and N1*(they didn't manage to detect any deeper subclade, the N* might also have belonged to a subclade of N1)




Reread this sentence.


I have read it... yet I'm not 100% convinced.

[Curtis24]

I always thought Eastern Europe and Russia had the most unreduced, uncombined Cro-magnons... in Western Europe, you find Cro-magnons often combined with other types.

[Tomasz]

If we look at distribution of the most unreduced Cro-Magnid types, then what do we find?

Bruenns on British Isles, especially in west Ireland (although sort of more reduced here than in the rest of country and Great Britain) and some remnats on Iceland.
Dalo-Falids in west Germany, especially north-west and adjacent areas. Sometimes in Scandinavia.
Paleo-Atlantids in north Scotland and parts of Scandinavia (Tydals).
East-Cro-Magnids - remnats in Eastern Europe although less numerous compared to the rest of population than in countries mentioned before (in north-west Europe).

It's difficult to judge, really. Percentage-wise Eastern Europe is less Cro-Magnid but there are more people living in Russia and adjacent countries than in these north-west European countries...

Also, it depends whether we count only partly alpinized (Borreby/North-Alpinid) and partly balticized (West-Baltids) indivuals.

If I had to bet, I'd say that north-west Europe with extension into west Germany is the most Cro-Magnid.

[Äike]

I always thought Eastern Europe and Russia had the most unreduced, uncombined Cro-magnons... in Western Europe, you find Cro-magnons often combined with other types.

Eastern-Europe and Russia do not come to my mind, when we are talking about Cro-Magnons. Northern-Europe does, with our majority UP-descend populations.


If we look at distribution of the most unreduced Cro-Magnid types, then what do we find?

Bruenns on British Isles, especially in west Ireland (although sort of more reduced here than in the rest of country and Great Britain) and some remnats on Iceland.
Dalo-Falids in west Germany, especially north-west and adjacent areas. Sometimes in Scandinavia.
Paleo-Atlantids in north Scotland and parts of Scandinavia (Tydals).
East-Cro-Magnids - remnats in Eastern Europe although less numerous compared to the rest of population than in countries mentioned before (in north-west Europe).

It's difficult to judge, really. Percentage-wise Eastern Europe is less Cro-Magnid but there are more people living in Russia and adjacent countries than in these north-west European countries...

Also, it depends whether we count only partly alpinized (Borreby/North-Alpinid) and partly balticized (West-Baltids) indivuals.

If I had to bet, I'd say that north-west Europe with extension into west Germany is the most Cro-Magnid.

Finland has the largest percentage of unreduced Cro-Magnons, which co-exist with other Cro-Magnon derived types. Finnish skulls resemble the original Cro-Magnon skulls the most. I do not know how many times I have to repeat this.

[Aviane]

On the one hand, modern largely unreduced Cro-Magnid variants are very fair and often have red/reddish hair. Just look at Dalo-Falids and Bruenns. The latter have the largest percentages of redheads from all phenotypes.

On the other hand there are also even more archaic (but not that widespread) Cro-Magnid types, so called Paleo-Atlantids. They can be met in British Isles ocasionally or in Scandinavia (especially Norway; so called Tydal type). They are heavily pigmented with black hair.

Indeed these types of Cromagnoids are often red or reddish haired which the Dalo-faelids and Bruenns have and these are definite the ones who have the most out of every phenotypes.

You can definite find their other counterpart which is not of course the most common but is found sometimes in the Britain (Wales, parts of England and some parts of Scotland) or Scandinavia (Norway for definite) and even thoughout my travels to these places I've noticed these types.


The majority of Northern-Europeans derive from Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnons. But Finns have retained their native Northern-European/Upper Paleolithic language, thus for obvious reasons, they are the most Cro-Magnon.

True Northern Europeans are UP/Cro-Magnons in generally except though the Finns have got the most amount of this Paleolithic.


I always thought Eastern Europe and Russia had the most unreduced, uncombined Cro-magnons... in Western Europe, you find Cro-magnons often combined with other types.

Eastern Europe is probably for true the center of Cro-magnons even though in Western Europe you can get alot of blends so yes.


If we look at distribution of the most unreduced Cro-Magnid types, then what do we find?

Bruenns on British Isles, especially in west Ireland (although sort of more reduced here than in the rest of country and Great Britain) and some remnats on Iceland.
Dalo-Falids in west Germany, especially north-west and adjacent areas. Sometimes in Scandinavia.
Paleo-Atlantids in north Scotland and parts of Scandinavia (Tydals).
East-Cro-Magnids - remnats in Eastern Europe although less numerous compared to the rest of population than in countries mentioned before (in north-west Europe).

It's difficult to judge, really. Percentage-wise Eastern Europe is less Cro-Magnid but there are more people living in Russia and adjacent countries than in these north-west European countries...

Also, it depends whether we count only partly alpinized (Borreby/North-Alpinid) and partly balticized (West-Baltids) indivuals.

If I had to bet, I'd say that north-west Europe with extension into west Germany is the most Cro-Magnid.

All true Indeed. :thumb001: :cool:

[Curtis24]

Eastern-Europe and Russia do not come to my mind, when we are talking about Cro-Magnons. Northern-Europe does, with our majority UP-descend populations.



Finland has the largest percentage of unreduced Cro-Magnons, which co-exist with other Cro-Magnon derived types. Finnish skulls resemble the original Cro-Magnon skulls the most. I do not know how many times I have to repeat this.

This is true, I take it back, I included partially reduced(Borrebids, West Baltids) in my calculation that Eastern Europe had the most unreduced.

That being, probably NW Europe, the British Isles in particular, seem to have the most true unreduced Cromagnids - Dalofaelids. Norway comes in at number two IMO.

[Arne]

Neandertaler compared with Cromagnon
http://bournesocial.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Neanderthal-Cro-Magnon.jpg

[Curtis24]

Pallantides, what country is Norway genetically the closest to, vs. what country is Britain closest to(besides Ireland, of course)?

[Pallantides]

Pallantides, what country is Norway genetically the closest to, vs. what country is Britain closest to(besides Ireland, of course)?

I haven't seen the results of enough Norwegians to make an accurate judgement, but I'd say the closest people to Norwegians are the Swedes, Western Norwegians also seem to be closer to British:
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1123/westandeast.jpg

NO1 - West Norwegian
NO2 - East Norwegian(me)
NO3 - East Norwegian
NO5 - Unknown

[Pallantides]

Norwegian Waffen SS frontfighter Bjarne Dramstad
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/367/bjarnedramstad.jpg

[Pallantides]

Time for a resurrection. :cool:


http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/3509/valdres25.jpghttp://g.api.no/obscura/pub/728x1000r/03464/1285655018000_28nyhForsvar_3464206728x1000r.jpghtt p://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/2471968/Vibeke+Stene+vibekestene1.jpghttp://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7884/pertien.jpghttp://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8820/marenengekschoen.jpghttp://www.tvnorge.no/polopoly_fs/1.9595.1300275492!image/1625527302.jpghttp://img541.imageshack.us/img541/7473/breimstaffetengloppen.jpghttp://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2646/asbjrn2.jpghttp://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2995/sigveasplund.jpghttp://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8162/bjrnk.jpghttp://img809.imageshack.us/img809/1441/valdres26.jpghttp://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1720/valdres24.jpg

[Agrippa]

I like those pictures with more than one rather similar variant, making it look and feel even more as if looking at higher Mesolithic hunters and Megalithic people of the North, with quite typical Northern Cromagnid/Dalofaelid traits.

Especially these two pictures could be in a movie casting for playing the clan members:
http://g.api.no/obscura/pub/728x1000r/03464/1285655018000_28nyhForsvar_3464206728x1000r.jpg

The guy on the left can play the clan leader ;)

These two must be related:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/1441/valdres26.jpg

[Pallantides]

How about these two?

Magnus Takvam
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/7795/magnustakvam.jpg

Ingvild Bryn
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/9031/ingvildbryn.jpg

[Agrippa]

The man has Cromagnoid traits, but also derivate ones, so Borreby-Alpinoid being strong, probably even slight Nordoid as well.

The woman more so, but might have an Atlanto-Nordoid influence.

[safinator]

Finns are, according to a study they're closest in morphology to CM.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://i33.tinypic.com/2vvox1g.jpg

Crom-Magnon1 and Finnish actor Pertti Koivula

Damn...aside from a much narrower mouth I am Cro Magnon 1. Weird, that's not how I saw cromag 1 being reconstructed. Well, my eye area doesn't slant down either, and is larger. Those big jaws and cheeks like that, never see anyone else that way.

[Sharkeatpeople]

I think lot of population of Norway-CM, but also by the number of Nordic population,a little which country compare with Norway,
except among other countries in Scandinavia and Britain

[Dani Cutie]

The ancient inhabitants of the Canarian Islands, the Guanchos, had the same skull
shape as the Cro-Magnons had. The Guanchos used to have red/hair hair with blue
eyes like the West-Norwegians. See the redhaired Norwegian man. Maybe this is a prove
that the ancient Cro-Magnons had fair/red hair with blue eyes?
Which haplogroup had the Maglemosian people from Denmark? Maybe I and R1b?

People says that guanches was 1/2 vándals and1/2 Africans

[aherne]

No: Finns win this game followed by Swedes. SE Norwegians (where the vast majority live) are nearly identical to Swedes in look: on Western rugged coast you will find more Aryan looking people but they're still a minority. Blonde CM types are a majority everywhere

[Norb]

No: Finns win this game followed by Swedes. SE Norwegians (where the vast majority live) are nearly identical to Swedes in look: on Western rugged coast you will find more Aryan looking people but they're still a minority. Blonde CM types are a majority everywhere

who has the most gracile/babyface corded types?

[Jingle Bell]

Prob Balt/Finns

[Marshall Theodore]

No, Balts do

[aherne]

who has the most gracile/babyface corded types?

Germanics and Slavs... This is due to highly gracilized Baltid-like intake. Corded types in CM-low regions (Romania, for example) do not exhibit these tendencies.

[Norb]

Germanics and Slavs... This is due to highly gracilized Baltid-like intake. Corded types in CM-low regions (Romania, for example) do not exhibit these tendencies.

I meant in Germanic Countries...the 'babyfaced' Corded would be due to MED admixture and nothing to do with Baltid right?

[Atlantic Reptilian]

I meant in Germanic Countries...the 'babyfaced' Corded would be due to MED admixture and nothing to do with Baltid right?

Both (although med a bit less) if you look at Sweden

[Norb]

Both (although med a bit less) if you look at Sweden

Baltid doesn't soften features, it's a harsh robust CM type

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Baltid doesn't soften features, it's a harsh robust CM type

If it is reduced it does. It's anyhow not uncommon here in Sweden. They seem round and are shorter than average.

[Septentrion]

I always thought these Cro-Magnon reconstructions looked very Norwegian
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/stuff/cro-magnon1.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/stuff/cro-magnon2.jpghttp://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/stuff/cro-magnon3.jpg

Norwegians:
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00732/Grete_Faremo_Gret_7326424x3.jpg
http://fotball.adressa.no/multimedia/archive/00077/16x9FrodeJohnsen_77743a.jpg
http://www.til.no/var/storage/images/media2/mediabank/mats-reginiussen/104804-1-nor-NO/Mats-Reginiussen_bildespesial_big.jpg
http://www.godset.no/filarkiv/nyheter_thumbs/3744full_FrerdrikN.JPG
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/monica1.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Nordmenn/SteinarB205_99938a.jpg
http://www.monssen.no/rosenborg/media/2004/h103_l.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2517/kventype.jpg
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1856/vaagetype1.jpg
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3421/vaagetype2.jpg
http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/troe043.jpg

The Norwegian population has a good amount of people who are CM-influenced. This is much more so than Sweden in particular. Nevertheless, it is less strong than Denmark. So the answer is no!

[Septentrion]

Yes the Ben-ne-lux region is very CM with quite abit of alpine admixture thrown in France, and I suppose the other areas, though I am not certain about those places.

Bruenns, Borreby are very common in my area of England.

Yes, southern Belgium is the most CM region of the Be-Ne-Lux. This is why Belgium as a whole has the largest head size mean in Europe outside of Ireland.

[Septentrion]

I thought that Finns were the most CM.

Not by any stretch. The most CM are in NW Europe.

[Septentrion]

The majority of Northern-Europeans derive from Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnons. But Finns have retained their native Northern-European/Upper Paleolithic language, thus for obvious reasons, they are the most Cro-Magnon.

No!!! Don’t confuse anthropology with linguistics. Ok!

[Marshall Theodore]

No, its NW euros

[Septentrion]

Northern-Europeans are the most Cro-Magnon people and I have read from somewhere, that Finnish skulls resemble the ancient Cro-Magnon skulls the most.

Do you even know what is meant by Cromagnid in anthropological terms? Let me help you understand.
CM types are the Dalofaelid, Brunn, Borreby, Paleo Atlantid and finally Berid ( southern Cromagnid). The Finns has a lower frequency for all those phenotypes.

[Septentrion]

No, its NW euros

Correct.

[Septentrion]

Norwegians are predominantly Nordid or Nordid-influenced phenotypes in 3/4 of the cases. Although there is large minority which is strongly Cromagnid population in the south, south-west, western coastal areas. Thus Norwegians are not the most Cromagnid population in Europe.