View Full Version : What is the proto-germanic haplogroup ? I1 or R-U106 ?
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 03:23 AM
What is the proto-germanic haplogroup ? I1 or R-U106 ?
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/409639HaplogroupI1.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=409639HaplogroupI1.gif)
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/380240HaplogroupR1bU106Eupedia.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=380240HaplogroupR1bU106Eupedia.gif)
Figaro
09-22-2015, 03:27 AM
I1, if I had to pick one.
Finland is a good proof for I1, actually the best.
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 03:38 AM
If it is I1,
the three most germanic countries would be: 1.Sweden 2.Norway 3.Finland.
Hotspot: eastern Norway + western Sweden.
If it R-U106,
the three most germanic countries would be: 1.Netherlands 2.Luxembourg 3.UK
Hospot: Netherlands + Friesland, Tournai's area and greater Luxembourg.
If it is I1,
the three most germanic countries would be: 1.Sweden 2.Norway 3.Finland.
Hotspot: eastern Norway + western Sweden.
If it R-U106,
the three most germanic countries would be: 1.Netherlands 2.Luxembourg 3.UK
Hospot: Netherlands + Friesland, Tournai's area and greater Luxembourg.
Actually West Finland is about 45-55% I1.
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 03:48 AM
R-U106 is older than meta-ethnicites, it is "Doggerlander" y-dna which is why it is more common in Netherlands and reaching into Britain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland
And for those that dont know, the Finnish I1 is old, the regions are 100% Finnish speaking and have been since 300-500AD
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 03:49 AM
Actually West Finland is about 45-55% I1.
That's possible but,
Why is Finland not germanic while they would have one the highest amount of "proto-germanic" origin ?
That's possible but,
Why is Finland not germanic while they would have one the highest amount of "proto-germanic" origin ?
That is the question, why did they shift language to that of the Estonian Vikings? Hope to get foreigners interested in this also. :D
Figaro
09-22-2015, 03:56 AM
Germanics are highly associated as a fairly even meshing of "Old Europe" and Indo-European Europe. Finland might be Finnic speaking, but it isn't entirely of Siberian-stock...it will be still much moreso so-called "Mesolithic Euro". and this subclade of "I" is very Mesolithic.
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 03:58 AM
That's possible but,
Why is Finland not germanic while they would have one the highest amount of "proto-germanic" origin ?
Because those proto-Germanics were assimilated into the Finnish poplulations. Possible they killed off indigenous males. Children learn their language from their mothers, hence mother tongue. I1-M253 marker stems from a male born in present day Denmark circa 5500 years ago.
Finnish I1, can it descend from pre-Saxon ancestry?
It has gone almost year since I last time visited FtDna's I1-project, being quite tired of the usual pathetic ydna discussion. Now after a little pushed by another Finnish guy I took a look and noticed that the SNP-based phylogenetic tree shows more upstream matches for Finnish Bothnians than a year ago. Most of new matches are from England which obviously mirrors the testing activity more than enything else. Anyway, it looks like the Bothnian I1 descends from something like Anglo-Saxons, but we have to date it, accoring to the clade age (made by Ken Nordtvedt and others), to the time before Anglo-Saxon British migrations. Here are those connected directly to Bothnians, They form an own class between all other I1 branches and Bothnians.
http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/2015/04/finnish-i1-can-it-descend-from-pre.html
The history of Finnish I1 was pretty long unkown and was a target of speculations although many Finns being aware of the Finnish history were able to see more and understand the course of history, actually pretty well (on our Finnish forums treating the Finish history was a member calling himself Moses Leone. He stated 8 years ago that the Finnish I1 was older than usually supposed and bound to Iron Age migrations). What we know now more is based on new Y-chromosome related information. It shows us hidden history of male ancestral lines thousands years back. And what can we now say for sure based on the new information? It is the same as many hints have given for us to presume already years ago. So we don't know now more basics, we only can broaden our knowledge with new facts.
Keeping in mind the Finnish history, not only genetics but also archaeological and linguistic evidences (known already around 200-300 years) it is undeniable that the Bothnian group is closely related to a certain Central European clade, known by the ydna-mutation CTS2208. Out of touch of this mutation the relation can be confirmed also by STR-statistics. STR-statistics can give misleading information if used to explain a single individual result more than hundreds years back in time, but statistical results are still valid. The more we have high classified samples the more history can be plumbed.
http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/2015/04/finnish-i1-can-it-descend-from-pre_18.html
Germanics are highly associated as a fairly even meshing of "Old Europe" and Indo-European Europe. Finland might be Finnic speaking, but it isn't entirely of Siberian-stock...it will be still much moreso so-called "Mesolithic Euro". and this subclade of "I" is very Mesolithic.
The Finnic part of Finns comes from Estonia via Volga-Kama during the Bronze Age so calling it as Siberian-stock population has no backing.
Figaro
09-22-2015, 04:05 AM
The Finnic part of Finns comes from Estonia via Volga-Kama during the Bronze Age so calling it as Siberian-stock population has no backing.
Not so much; I was kind of going back on that old mantra...
Either way, how bout 'dem Germanics...
Not so much; I was kind of going back on that old mantra...
Either way, how bout 'dem Germanics...
The Finnish I1 are pretty specific, I would like to hear suggestions of potential tribes they could match in history.
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 04:10 AM
Not so much; I was kind of going back on that old mantra...
Either way, how bout 'dem Germanics...
It is obvious I1 is proto-Germanic. Scandinavian languages are the true proto-Germanic languages. Modern day German is around 65% indo-European for example, and closer to Slavic as opposed to Scando tongues, rest is proto-germanic.
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 04:12 AM
The Finnish I1 are pretty specific, I would like to hear suggestions of potential tribes they could match in history.
Jutes, Angles most likely, where I1 originated from. Don't confuse Goths with Swedish Gotland. They were from Jutland, same pronounciation as Goths, Jutes names present day Gotland in Sweden.
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 04:13 AM
R-U106
The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-M223, R1a-Z284 and to a lesser extent N1c1, which evolved into a relatively unified whole during the Iron Age, the first truly Germanic culture and language, although spread across many tribes. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.
The presence of R1b-S21 in other parts of Europe can be attributed almost exclusively to the Germanic migrations that took place between the 3rd and the 10th century. The Frisians and Anglo-Saxons disseminated this haplogroup to England and the Scottish Lowlands, the Franks to Belgium and France, the Burgundians to eastern France, the Suebi to Galicia and northern Portugal, and the Lombards to Austria and Italy. The Goths help propagate S21 around Eastern Europe, but apparently their Germanic lineages were progressively diluted by blending with Slavic and Balkanic populations, and their impact in Italy, France and Spain was very minor. Later the Danish and Norwegian Vikings have also contributed to the diffusion of R1b-S21 (alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a) around much of Western Europe, but mainly in Iceland, in the British Isles, in Normandy, and in the southern Italy.
From the Late Middle Ages until the early 20th century, the Germans expanded across much of modern Poland, pushing as far as Latvia to the north-east and Romania to the south-east. During the same period the Austrians built an empire comprising what is now the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, and parts of Romania, western Ukraine and southern Poland. Many centuries of German and Austrian influence in central and Eastern Europe resulted in a small percentage of Germanic lineages being found among modern populations. In Romania 4% of the population still consider themselves German. The low percentage of R1b-S21 in Finland, Estonia and Latvia can be attributed to the Swedish or Danish rule from the late Middle Ages to the late 19th century.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S21-U106
It is obvious I1 is proto-Germanic. Scandinavian languages are the true proto-Germanic languages. Modern day German is around 65% indo-European for example, and closer to Slavic as opposed to Scando tongues, rest is proto-germanic.
This is supported by the fact that earliest language contact to proto-Germanic is proto-Finnic, it narrows the possible Urheimat region from Finland to Sweden.
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 04:17 AM
How did I1 become Germanic ?
From 2800 BCE, a large-scale cultural and genetic upheaval hit Scandinavia with the arrival of the Indo-Europeans from Eastern Europe, who introduced the Copper Age and Early Bronze Age practically without Neolithic transition. The first Indo-Europeans to reach Scandinavia were the Corded Ware people from modern Russia, Belarus and Poland, who are thought to have belonged predominantly to haplogroup R1a. These people shared some similar maternal lineages as Scandinavian I1 inhabitants, including mtDNA haplogroups U2e, U4 and U5, but also brought many new lineages such as H2a1, H6, W and various subclades of I, J, K and T.
The second major Indo-European migration to Scandinavia was that of haplogroup R1b, the branch that is thought to have introduced Proto-Germanic languages, as an offshoot of the Proto-Celto-Germanic speakers from Central Europe. R1b probably entered Scandinavia from present-day Germany as a northward expansion of the late Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE).
According to the Germanic substrate hypothesis, first proposed by Sigmund Feist in 1932, Proto-Germanic was a hybrid language mixing Indo-European (R1b, and to a lower extent R1a) and pre-Indo-European (native Nordic I1) elements. This hybridisation would have taken place during the Bronze Age and given birth to the first truly Germanic civilization, the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE).
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 04:20 AM
R-U106
The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-M223, R1a-Z284 and to a lesser extent N1c1, which evolved into a relatively unified whole during the Iron Age, the first truly Germanic culture and language, although spread across many tribes. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.
The presence of R1b-S21 in other parts of Europe can be attributed almost exclusively to the Germanic migrations that took place between the 3rd and the 10th century. The Frisians and Anglo-Saxons disseminated this haplogroup to England and the Scottish Lowlands, the Franks to Belgium and France, the Burgundians to eastern France, the Suebi to Galicia and northern Portugal, and the Lombards to Austria and Italy. The Goths help propagate S21 around Eastern Europe, but apparently their Germanic lineages were progressively diluted by blending with Slavic and Balkanic populations, and their impact in Italy, France and Spain was very minor. Later the Danish and Norwegian Vikings have also contributed to the diffusion of R1b-S21 (alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a) around much of Western Europe, but mainly in Iceland, in the British Isles, in Normandy, and in the southern Italy.
From the Late Middle Ages until the early 20th century, the Germans expanded across much of modern Poland, pushing as far as Latvia to the north-east and Romania to the south-east. During the same period the Austrians built an empire comprising what is now the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, and parts of Romania, western Ukraine and southern Poland. Many centuries of German and Austrian influence in central and Eastern Europe resulted in a small percentage of Germanic lineages being found among modern populations. In Romania 4% of the population still consider themselves German. The low percentage of R1b-S21 in Finland, Estonia and Latvia can be attributed to the Swedish or Danish rule from the late Middle Ages to the late 19th century.
They can both be germanic considering R-U106 is found in north portugal probably due to the Suebic tribe but I1 is proto-germanic. R-U106 can even be considered some kind of proto-celtic or proto-belgae and associated with ancient doggerlanders like my previous post.
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 04:22 AM
They can both be germanic considering R-U106 is found in north portugal probably due to the Suebic tribe but I1 is proto-germanic. R-U106 can even be considered some kind of proto-celtic or proto-belgae and associated with ancient doggerlanders like my previous post.
Ouch,
"The second major Indo-European migration to Scandinavia was that of haplogroup R1b, the branch that is thought to have introduced Proto-Germanic languages, as an offshoot of the Proto-Celto-Germanic speakers from Central Europe. R1b probably entered Scandinavia from present-day Germany as a northward expansion of the late Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE)."
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 04:26 AM
Ouch,
"The second major Indo-European migration to Scandinavia was that of haplogroup R1b, the branch that is thought to have introduced Proto-Germanic languages, as an offshoot of the Proto-Celto-Germanic speakers from Central Europe. R1b probably entered Scandinavia from present-day Germany as a northward expansion of the late Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE)."
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml
Corresponds with I1, Don't be so ignorant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Pre-roman_iron_age_%28map%29.PNG
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 04:28 AM
Don't be so ignorant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language
You're the ignorant here, if you had read everything, you would have understood.
Germanic languages are indo-european, close to celtic and italic languages.
Jutes, Angles most likely, where I1 originated from. Don't confuse Goths with Swedish Gotland. They were from Jutland, same pronounciation as Goths, Jutes names present day Gotland in Sweden.
Fornjót (Old Norse: Fornjótr) was an ancient giant in Norse mythology and a king of Finland, Kvenland and Gotland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fornj%C3%B3t
The saga deals with the arrival of the Norse gods to Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish Yngling dynasty at Uppsala.
In the initial stanzas of the poem Asagarth is the capital of Asaland, a section of Asia to the east of the Tana-kvísl or Vana-Kvísl river (kvísl is "fork"), which Snorri explains is the Tanais, or Don River, flowing into the Black Sea. The river divides "Sweden the Great", a concession to the Viking point of view. It is never called that prior to the Vikings (Section 1).
The river lands are occupied by the Vanir and are called Vanaland or Vanaheim. It is unclear what people Snorri thinks the Vanes are, whether the proto-Slavic Venedi or the east Germanic Vandals, who had been in that region at that time for well over 1000 years.
He does not say; however, the Germanic names of the characters, such as Njord, Frey and Vanlandi, indicate he had the Vandals in mind.
Odin is the chief of Ásgarðr. From there he conducts and dispatches military expeditions to all parts of the world. He has the virtue of never losing a battle (Section 2). When he is away, his two brothers, Vili and Vé, rule Ásaland from Ásgarðr.
On the border of Sweden is a mountain range running from northeast to southwest.
South of it are the lands of the Turks, where Odin had possessions; thus, the mountains must be the Caucasus Mountains. On the north are the uninhabitable fells, which must be the tundra/taiga country. Apparently the Vikings did not encounter the Urals or the Uralics of the region. Snorri evidences no knowledge of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglinga_saga
In the Scandinavian sources they are the descendants of Yngvi-Frey of Vanaheim. Yngling means descendant of Frey, and in the Gesta Danorum of Saxo Grammaticus they are called the sons of Frey. Several of these kings appear in Beowulf: Eadgils (Adils), Onela (Ale), and Ohthere (Ottar Vendelkråka), but here they are called Scylfings (see the Beowulf section below).
Snorri Sturluson hints at a less divine origin in Skáldskaparmál for this dynasty: One war-king was named Skelfir; and his house is called the House of Skilfings: his kindred is in the Eastern Land. In the 13th century, the official Swedish/Scandinavian term for the modern-day Southern Finland was "Eastern Land", Österland, i.e. the eastern half of Sweden at the time.
In Ynglinga Saga in 1220 AD, Snorri Sturluson discusses marriages between Swedish and Finnish royal families. In 1220 AD (c.), in the Skáldskaparmál section of Edda, Sturluson discusses King Halfdan the Old, Nór's great-grandson, and nine of his sons who are the forefathers of various royal lineages, including "Yngvi, from whom the Ynglings are descended".
According to Orkneyinga Saga in 1230 AD, Nór founded Norway. He was a direct descendant of Fornjótr, the King of Finland, Kvenland and Gotland.
Many Scandinavian historians name Halfdan the Old as an ancestor to Rollo, the Viking conqueror who founded Normandy and took the name Robert I (the first) after converting to Christianity. He is William the Conqueror's great grandfather.
In 1387 AD, Hversu Noregr byggðist ('How Norway was inhabited') is an account of the origin of various legendary Norwegian lineages.
It too traces the descendants of the primeval Finnish ruler Fornjotr back to Nór, who is here the eponym and first great king of Norway, and then gives details of the descendants of Nór and of his brother Gór in the following section known as the Ættartölur ('Genealogies', a.k.a. Fundinn Noregr, 'Founding of Norway'). The Hversu account is closely paralleled by the opening of the Orkneyinga saga.
The 'genealogies' also claim that many heroic families famed in Scandinavian tradition but not located in Norway were of a Finn-Kven stock, mostly sprung from Nór's great-grandson Halfdan the Old. Almost all the lineages sprung from Halfdan are then shown to reconvert in the person of Harald Fairhair, the first king of "all Norway". This information can be confirmed in other sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngling
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 04:33 AM
You're the ignorant here, if you had read everything, you would have understood.
Germanic languages are indo-european, close to celtic and italic languages.
We are discussing proto-Germanic, if you had read everything, you would have understood as well lol
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 04:35 AM
Corresponds with I1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Pre-roman_iron_age_%28map%29.PNG
That doesn't mean anything, all is there:
R-U106
R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-M223, R1a-Z284 and to a lesser extent N1c1, which evolved into a relatively unified whole during the Iron Age, the first truly Germanic culture and language, although spread across many tribes. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.
The arrival of the R-U106 correspond of the birth of the nordic Bronze Age and germanic languages in Scandinavia.
Baltic Finns appear in the map like magic later.
Like they dont exist in the sagas yet they have been in the region since Bronze Age, this should raise questions but it usually does not.
Not to mention the N1c appearance in the region.
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 04:38 AM
That doesn't mean anything, all is there:
R-U106
The arrival of the R-U106 correspond of the birth of the nordic Bronze Age and germanic languages in Scandinavia.
Map of the Pre-Roman Iron Age cultures associated with Proto-Germanic, ca 500 BC–50 BC. The area south of Scandinavia is the Jastorf culture. Again, corresponds with I1. If you are so adamant that R-U106 is proto-germanic than why bother opening a thread to discuss lol
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/GERMANICEXPANSION.GIF
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 04:42 AM
Map of the Pre-Roman Iron Age cultures associated with Proto-Germanic, ca 500 BC–50 BC. The area south of Scandinavia is the Jastorf culture. Again, corresponds with I1.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/GERMANICEXPANSION.GIF
Guapo, all is there:
According to the Germanic substrate hypothesis, first proposed by Sigmund Feist in 1932, Proto-Germanic was a hybrid language mixing Indo-European (R1b, and to a lower extent R1a) and pre-Indo-European (native Nordic I1) elements. This hybridisation would have taken place during the Bronze Age and given birth to the first truly Germanic civilization, the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE).
Germanic languages is an indo-european language while I1 is a pre-indo-european population, the R-U106 are obviously the proto-germanic who settled in Scandinavia and mixed.
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 04:45 AM
http://www.cichw1.net/seafapics/protomapironx7.JPG
http://www.worldology.com/Europe/images/ancient_europe_germanic.jpg
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 04:47 AM
http://www.cichw1.net/seafapics/protomapironx7.JPG
http://www.worldology.com/Europe/images/ancient_europe_germanic.jpg
Map means nothing but if that can console you.:thumb001:
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 04:47 AM
Germanic languages is an indo-european language while I1 is a pre-indo-european population, the R-U106 are obviously the proto-germanic who settled in Scandinavia and mixed.
If you are so adamant that R-U106 is proto-germanic than why bother opening a thread to discuss lol
Guapo, all is there:
Germanic languages is an indo-european language while I1 is a pre-indo-european population, the R-U106 are obviously the proto-germanic who settled in Scandinavia and mixed.
Proto-language can be placed in a small region at start, first contacts proto-Germanic had was with proto-Finnic.
Looking at linguistics and genetics most likely regions are, Svealand, Gotland and SW Finland.
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 04:52 AM
If you are so adamant that R-U106 is proto-germanic than why bother opening a thread to discuss lol
I'm waiting for a serious proof that I'm wrong.
In fact, it's endless debate because germanic culture was created by the hybridation of both group.
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 04:55 AM
I'm waiting for a serious proof that I'm wrong.
You're too obnoxious to believe anything else other that your pompous self inflated French ego. Read Äijä's posts and stop quoting me.
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 05:04 AM
You're too obnoxious to believe anything else other that your pompous self inflated French ego. Read Äijä's posts and stop quoting me.
Guapovitch, already butthurt.
Äijä's post doesn't prove that R-U106 isn't at the origin of the proto-germanic languages.
Vojvod
09-22-2015, 05:07 AM
Guapovitch, already butthurt.
Äijä's post doesn't prove that R-U106 isn't at the origin of the proto-germanic languages.
I have no reason to be butthurt but apparently you are by me for whatever sick reason is in your head concerning this petty issue considering you keep quoting me.
Guapovitch, already butthurt.
Äijä's post doesn't prove that R-U106 isn't at the origin of the proto-germanic languages.
Uppsala is a good pick for ground zero and I would focus at the I1 and N1c more than R-U106 that fits with Geats that where always under the King at Uppsala.
Medieval Scandinavians held Gamla Uppsala as one of the oldest and most important locations in Scandinavia.
The Danish chronicler Saxo Grammaticus held Odin himself to have resided in Gamla Uppsala far back in the mists of time:
At this time there was one Odin, who was credited over all Europe with the honour, which was false, of godhead, but used more continually to sojourn at Uppsala; and in this spot, either from the sloth of the inhabitants or from its own pleasantness, he vouchsafed to dwell with somewhat especial constancy.[10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamla_Uppsala
Swedish Haplogroup Database
The distribution of haplogroups across regions and counties for the oldest known ancestors
http://www.dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplopie&lang=en&haplo_level=1&lan_sel=C&database=other
Lawalye
09-22-2015, 08:27 PM
I have never said that all R-U106 are proto-germanic, I just said that the proto-germanic were a group of R-U106 carrier who settled in Scandinavia and were the trigger of the birth of the germanic culture, then the first germanic people was an hybrid between I1, R-U106 and R1A and were scandinavians.
The other U106 carriers who were more lately germanized, spoke celtic languages before.
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/497265EarlyR1bCopperAgeMigrationsv02.png (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=497265EarlyR1bCopperAgeMigrationsv02 .png)
I have never said that all R-U106 are proto-germanic, I just said that the proto-germanic were a group of R-U106 carrier who settled in Scandinavia and were the trigger of the birth of the germanic culture, then the first germanic people was an hybrid between I1, R-U106 and R1A and were scandinavians.
The other U106 carriers who were more lately germanized, spoke celtic languages before.
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/497265EarlyR1bCopperAgeMigrationsv02.png (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=497265EarlyR1bCopperAgeMigrationsv02 .png)
Where do you place the proto-Germanic homeland?
Lawalye
09-23-2015, 03:55 AM
Where do you place the proto-Germanic homeland?
The U106 is probably related to the halstat and la tène culture but it's older, there are also many branches.
I would say south Scandinavia because it's where the germanic culture was born.
The U106 is probably related to the halstat and la tène culture but it's older, there are also many branches.
I would say south Scandinavia because it's where the germanic culture was born.
Scandinavia is a big place, language starts in a specific region.
I guess it was in Svealand, most choose Denmark-Scania.
When Æsir–Vanir War was being fought one reason to conclude peace was because Jutes where threatening both sides, Jutes come from Denmark.
Lawalye
09-23-2015, 04:07 AM
They can both be germanic considering R-U106 is found in north portugal probably due to the Suebic tribe but I1 is proto-germanic. R-U106 can even be considered some kind of proto-celtic or proto-belgae and associated with ancient doggerlanders like my previous post.
In fact, you're right, I don't know what I answered so badly.
I've maybe not read your posts :icon_cheesygrin:
Lawalye
09-23-2015, 04:08 AM
Scandinavia is a big place, language starts in a specific region.
I guess it was in Svealand, most choose Denmark-Scania.
When Æsir–Vanir War was being fought one reason to conclude peace was because Jutes where threatening both sides, Jutes come from Denmark.
It is very likely to be.
It is very likely to be.
Naturally I am speculating, it is not scientific but I firmly believe the mythology is based on real events.
But the linguistic evidence places the homeland next to proto-Finnic so combined with genetics it is a theory worth considering.
Lawalye
09-23-2015, 04:14 AM
Other subject :
Is the anglo-saxons-jutes influence dominant in UK ?
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/615296anglosaxonmap.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=615296anglosaxonmap.jpg)
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/497265EarlyR1bCopperAgeMigrationsv02.png (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=497265EarlyR1bCopperAgeMigrationsv02 .png)
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/784527HaplogroupI1.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=784527HaplogroupI1.gif)
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/788180HaplogroupR1bS21.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=788180HaplogroupR1bS21.gif)
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/549752CelticEurope.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=549752CelticEurope.gif)
Other subject :
Is the anglo-saxons-jutes influence dominant in UK ?
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/615296anglosaxonmap.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=615296anglosaxonmap.jpg)
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/497265EarlyR1bCopperAgeMigrationsv02.png (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=497265EarlyR1bCopperAgeMigrationsv02 .png)
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/784527HaplogroupI1.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=784527HaplogroupI1.gif)
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/788180HaplogroupR1bS21.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=788180HaplogroupR1bS21.gif)
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/549752CelticEurope.gif (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=549752CelticEurope.gif)
It was before the Normans came with their French ways. :D
I do think England is dominantly Germanic culturally and genetically but with a very strong Romano-British substrate.
Rest of Britain is not included in this, Scotland and Wales have different history.
Lawalye
09-23-2015, 04:36 AM
It was before the Normans came with their French ways. :D
I do think England is dominantly Germanic culturally and genetically but with a very strong Romano-British substrate.
Rest of Britain is not included in this, Scotland and Wales have different history.
The battle of Hastings was only a succession war, the normans have a negligeable influence on the modern englishman.
Further informations on the subclades could lead to a better knowledge of the impact of the germanic invasion in Britain, it seems that the celtic influence could be higher than expected but different than the irish, welsh and Scott, for me
Diocletian
09-23-2015, 04:44 AM
Baltic Finns appear in the map like magic later.
Like they dont exist in the sagas yet they have been in the region since Bronze Age, this should raise questions but it usually does not.
Not to mention the N1c appearance in the region.
Psychological thriller.
The battle of Hastings was only a succession war, the normans have a negligeable influence on the modern englishman.
Further informations on the subclades could lead to a better knowledge of the impact of the germanic invasion in Britain, it seems that the celtic influence could be higher than expected but different than the irish, welsh and Scott, for me
I ment that culturally Normans had a huge impact, but I would think genetically also above their numbers, but they where large part Norse themselves.
How much of the R1b is of Nordic origin is the deciding factor, we now know women also moved from the continent so that brings up the Germanic part.
The U106 is probably related to the halstat and la tène culture but it's older, there are also many branches.
I would say south Scandinavia because it's where the germanic culture was born.
R1b U106 is probably not related to halstat and la tene. First R1b U106 has been found in Southern Sweden 2275-2032 BC BC and plotted with Norwegians and Swedes. It's been suggested that these people likely contributed significantly to Proto-Germanics.
At the moment it's impossible to say where exactly Proto-Germanic was born, however you should take a look at this. It's from the site anthrogenica and it's quite interesting.
People speaking a dialect of Proto-Indo-European moved north from the Usatovo culture on the European steppe.
They crossed the north European plain, where they mixed with TRB farmers, who spoke a non-IE language, and they adopted a lot of words from that language. They also came into contact with Celtic [correction - Italo-Celtic/western IE] speakers.
The mixed group entered Scandinavia, which at the time had a suitable climate for arable farming. There they encountered people speaking other languages and adopted words from them. (About 1/3 of the Germanic lexicon is non-IE.)
Then the climate turned too cold and wet in Scandinavia, forcing farmers south into the Jastorf culture and its equivalent in Pomerania. Here they came into contact with iron-working Celts and adopted some words from them. This is where the final sound changes seem to have taken place that created Proto-Germanic about 500 BC.
Proto-Germanic is the final stage of the language before it split into East, West and North Germanic. The first to split away was East Germanic (Gothic). The Goths moved south not because of floods (as far as I know), but in pursuit of better opportunities to the south, with which they were familiar because of the amber route.
Flooding certainly seems to be involved in driving some of the West Germanic speakers away from the (Proto-Germanic) homeland and areas that they had spread into from that homeland. Obviously they didn't all leave!
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2110&d=1396291948
I would say R1b-U106, R1a and R1b-L11* contributed mostly to Proto-Germanic. Germanic language has around 1/3 non-ie the Germanic lexicon. I believe that I1 was rather ''Germanized'' and partly contributed the 1/3 non-ie of the Germanic lexicon
R1b U106 is probably not related to halstat and la tene. First R1b U106 has been found in Southern Sweden 2275-2032 BC BC and plotted with Norwegians and Swedes. It's been suggested that these people likely contributed significantly to Proto-Germanics.
At the moment it's impossible to say where exactly Proto-Germanic was born, however you should take a look at this. It's from the site anthrogenica and it's quite interesting.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2110&d=1396291948
I would say R1b-U106, R1a and R1b-L11* contributed mostly to Proto-Germanic. Germanic language has around 1/3 non-ie the Germanic lexicon. I believe that I1 was rather ''Germanized'' and partly contributed the 1/3 non-ie of the Germanic lexicon
This a traditional and good explanation but it does not explain the proto-Finnic contact from the start, more northern location in Sweden, Finland or Baltic coast would explain it.
Gutasaga tells that the first place Goths migrated to on their route to modern Russia was in modern Estonia, and East-Germanic was the first to separate from proto-Germanic, again pointing more North.
I dont take everything literally in the sagas but brushing them aside is also not wise IMO.
spanish catalan
09-23-2015, 04:17 PM
I1
This a traditional and good explanation but it does not explain the proto-Finnic contact from the start, more northern location in Sweden, Finland or Baltic coast would explain it.
I am aware of Jaska's posts and views about Proto-Germanic.
His post
Your open-minded suggestion seems quite valid at the moment, if we take a look at the linguistic evidence:
1. Lots of Germanic loanwords not only in Finnish but in Saami, too, including layers like: Northwest Indo-European, Pre-Germanic, Palaeo-Germanic, Proto-Germanic, Northwest-Germanic, Proto-Nordic...
2. Only few loanwords between Germanic and Baltic (or Slavic), and none preceding the proper Proto-Germanic level of reconstruction (although older loanwords would be more difficult to distinguish from the real inherited cognates).
3. Proto-Finnic and Proto-Saami are found in the Southwestern Finland at the Proto-Germanic era, around 500 BC (since which we also have retained Germanic placenames in Finland); before that Finnic was spoken in the southern side of Gulf of Finland, and Saami somewhere in Karelia. Saami does not spread to Lapland before the Christian Era, and Finnish still a millennium later.
Indeed, we have a solid basis to argue that the Germanic homeland was in Southwestern Finland (maybe already since the Corded Ware Culture).
One counter-argument:
Few proposed Celtic loanwords in Germanic supposedly precede the Grimm's Law, thus representing southwestern contacts already during the Palaeo-Germanic times (~1000-500 BC).
One thing is for sure that the development of the Proto-Germanic language was very complicated, all options are still open.
I am aware of Jaska's posts and views about Proto-Germanic.
One thing is for sure that the development of the Proto-Germanic language was very complicated, all options are still open.
There are also some recent papers surrounding this issue, the proto-Finnic contact from the start is a fact.
Question is where are the two in close contact, if it is not in Estonia or Finland then we have the L550 with a possible spread also in Sweden at that time.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-Z4908/
My guess is that Jaska is working on something as he has been pretty quiet.
R1b U106 is probably not related to halstat and la tene. First R1b U106 has been found in Southern Sweden 2275-2032 BC BC and plotted with Norwegians and Swedes. It's been suggested that these people likely contributed significantly to Proto-Germanics.
At the moment it's impossible to say where exactly Proto-Germanic was born, however you should take a look at this. It's from the site anthrogenica and it's quite interesting.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2110&d=1396291948
I would say R1b-U106, R1a and R1b-L11* contributed mostly to Proto-Germanic. Germanic language has around 1/3 non-ie the Germanic lexicon. I believe that I1 was rather ''Germanized'' and partly contributed the 1/3 non-ie of the Germanic lexicon
how about R1a-L664? R1b would of came from R1a right?
Ayman Vasconic
05-06-2018, 07:34 AM
Surely not I1, as this is pre-Germanic factor. Pre means BEFORE. And Germanic people are Indo-Europeans. I-people are not.
For over a thousand years while this culture existed, the Proto-Germanic R1b and R1a-L664 tribes would have acquired vocabulary from the pre-existing Corded Ware population that they assimilated, which was itself a blend of Proto-Balto-Slavic languages (linked to haplogroup R1a-Z284) and languages of non-Indo-European origin (linked to haplogroups G2a, I1 and I2).
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Germanic
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