Apricity's relevance as a discussion forum community is increasing by the day

[Loki]

This is my point of view, due to the massive influx of refugees and economic migrants in recent weeks from the Middle East, Asia, Africa etc. It seems the very fabric of European culture and society is put under threat. This situation could eventually change the demographics and face of Europe forever, like the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has warned.

Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic seem to be at the forefront in guarding the borders. Some international critics argue Orban is too harsh/extreme, but he raises very valid points that should be considered by all of Europe. People should not just think of the present, but of the long-term consequences of what is happening now. European society as we know it seems under threat. It is the sheer scale of the influx which is most concerning. I personally am no xenophobe or racist, but common sense is common sense. Europe just cannot cope with this amount of immigrants, and this is only the present. How will Europe look like in, say, 50 or 100 years from now?

A cleric (from Lebanon I think?) said that the migrants should "breed with Europeans in order to conquer Europe eventually". Of course that is just inflammatory rhetoric and I have no doubt that the vast majority of refugees are genuine (especially from Syria) and should be helped. But the root causes should be tackled, and soon. I think it is clear by now that the US's previous military adventures in Iraq has left a void waiting to be filled. And in Syria, America's support for the rebels has just prolonged the civil war, which could have been over by now if the US and other countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia did not support the uprising or so-called "Arab Spring". Look at Libya ... it was very stable under Gaddafi, and he was even becoming more mild and tried to mend relations in Europe. What was his reward? Regime change, and his death. Today Libya is a failed state with no functioning government. So, can anyone blame people from trying to flee these nightmare scenarios? I really feel for these refugees. But relocating them all to Europe is not the answer. It is effectively a brain drain on Syria. Who will be left there to rebuild the country after the war has ended?

Angela Merkel is partially (to a great extent) to blame for the massive increase in refugees wanting to go to Germany. This could change the face of Germany forever. Did she consult with the German people on this very serious matter before inviting them all to come? Her actions are inexplicable and irrational.

I really can't understand why the US does not want to work with Syria's government in order to get rid if ISIL. Hopefully Putin's initiative to form a broader coalition against these brutal, inhumane terrorists will bear fruit and end the unnecessary civil war.

So, my point with this thread is that Apricity as a European Cultural Community is a very relevant place for people to discuss Europe's future and its current challenges. :)

[Loki]

Any comments? :)

[Berahthraban]

Yes, this makes a lot of sense

[Dylan]

If refugees are to be seen as refugees and not as migrants than they should only be considered a refugee in the first country they choose to enter. If you first enter greece, but then try and get to Germany or Sweden or whatever because of the higher benefits, you are no longer fleeing oppression and are no longer a refugee, but a migrant.

I'm all for having Europe and the rest of the world take refugees in during their times of need, but not permanently.

[Subcarpați]

Refugees - NOT welcome.

[Äijä]

Any comments? :)

I agree in everything else but I am an honest racist. :thumb001:

[Äijä]

If refugees are to be seen as refugees and not as migrants than they should only be considered a refugee in the first country they choose to enter. If you first enter greece, but then try and get to Germany or Sweden or whatever because of the higher benefits, you are no longer fleeing oppression and are no longer a refugee, but a migrant.

I'm all for having Europe and the rest of the world take refugees in during their times of need, but not permanently.

99% are illegal economic migrants, they will never leave, every person that is allowed in will turn in to 5-7 more trough breeding and uniting families.

[StormBringer]

That's the spirit, find something positive in a negative situation :D

[Loki]

99% are illegal economic migrants, they will never leave, every person that is allowed in will turn in to 5-7 more trough breeding and uniting families.

To be fair, many (probably most) of the Syrian refugees are genuine refugees. Their country is falling apart, and it's not their fault. But the West should have seen this coming when they invaded Iraq, and fomented and supported uprisings in Libya and Syria. Now we are paying the price for that.

[Äijä]

To be fair, many (probably most) of the Syrian refugees are genuine refugees. Their country is falling apart, and it's not their fault. But the West should have seen this coming when they invaded Iraq, and fomented and supported uprisings in Libya and Syria. Now we are paying the price for that.

But most are not Syrians coming in, 2,5% of the total that have arrived to Finland are Syrians.

They also sell Syrians passports in Lebanon, most lie where they are from.

[Loki]

But most are not Syrians coming in, 2,5% of the total that have arrived to Finland are Syrians.

They also sell Syrians passports in Lebanon, most lie where they are from.

According to the BBC, around 40% of the refugees flooding in now are Syrian. Next is Iraqi and then Eritrean.

[abcd123]

According to the BBC, around 40% of the refugees flooding in now are Syrian. Next is Iraqi and then Eritrean.

Lol at your sig man.I take it you don't like David Cameron?

[Gooding]

May good Fortune smile upon Europe and may her generosity to those in need be suitably rewarded. In short, I wish her well and remain silent on those issues that are not for me to comment upon.

[Äijä]

According to the BBC, around 40% of the refugees flooding in now are Syrian. Next is Iraqi and then Eritrean.

I would not trust the BBC or the migrants papers.

[Raikaswinþs]

I disagree completely. Onr million war refugees in a population of 500 million isn't going to change anything that hasn't been changed already after 7 decades of Americans and their cultural globalisation and prioaganda machine haven't achieved yet. In essence tgetels no difference between germans, french, spaniards, britons an italians. our "regional" cultured are long dead anyway aside from isolated and ageing pueblos of the "dark" zone of the light-pollution-map.

The folk residues like the feria de abril or the oktober fest are just meaningless tourist attractions.

[Bezprym]

I would say this way: If anyone of these refugees will choose to enter Poland, then indeed such person is a refugee - they will not find money here.

EDIT: Sorry, they will - gift from the government..

[Instinct]

Personaly, I am not racist and I believe that the people can apply asylum without regarding their ethnicity, religion, sex or sexual orientation. However when I watch the news about the refugee crisis in Europe, I see the final destination of the Europe, let's be realist: If it's not invading the Europe, what is it?

Refugee means someone who needs a safe place to protect himself/herself and her family against the country of origin because of political reasons. For example during the world war II, the Royals of the Dutch Kingdom had to go to England as refugees to protect from the Nazis, otherwise they'd be killed, so they only saved their life also many people in Europe continent had to go to the USA as refugees, otherwise under the occupation of Nazis, they would be killed.

Well, definitely there is a civil war in Syria but there aren't two countries in the war. These people who flee from Syria are from every part of Syria, I mean there are people from Kobane who had to flee from IS due to occupation. These people from Kobane need to find a safe place, Aylan Kurdi from Kobane was a victim of war drowned in the sea, sadly.

These most of refugees are going to Europe to not to save their life but economical reasons. We can understand it clearly: most of them are young, single men and when they get the refugee status they know that the rest of the family in Syria, Turkey or Jordan will come to EU and will be granted refugee status too.

How they manage to go to EU zone? I've read on the news a few days ago, 14 refugees bought a big ship to go to Rhodes from Turkey. Human trafficiking is a business, smugglers earn a lot of money. Refugee floodings to Europe is the result of donating and training opposition groups against Bashar Al Assad. I mean, the US and the EU harm their own people, nations by the results of involving the Syrian politics and damaging Bashar Al Assad's stability. Assad is always ready to protect the Syrian nation's people but the problem is that jihadists and opposition both are donated and trained by the Western countries, Turkey and Gulf States.

One day, the US and the EU will regret about their so-called democracy screams to Bashar Al Assad. As I mentioned above, the Western civilization is on a wrong way to destroy their own civilization for so-called democracy screams, dirty schemes against Assad.

God Bless Bashar Al Assad and Russia for their struggle.

[Don Arb]

Refugees Welcome!

[blizzard]

I would say this way: If anyone of these refugees will choose to enter Poland, then indeed such person is a refugee - they will not find money here.

EDIT: Sorry, they will - gift from the government..
Be sure, your government will find money for them, no matter how wealthy or poor country is. Migrants can have about 50 euros per day and free living room without care about work.

[Don Arb]

The roots of middle eastern conflicts is bcs of Western imperialist countries and their interests in the region. Great Britain and USA have made the mess by creating Israel and changing their pupets there whenever they don't like them. It is unfair for Germany only.

[Loki]

Lol at your sig man.I take it you don't like David Cameron?

No, I don't like him at all :laugh:

[noricum]

To be fair, many (probably most) of the Syrian refugees are genuine refugees. Their country is falling apart, and it's not their fault. But the West should have seen this coming when they invaded Iraq, and fomented and supported uprisings in Libya and Syria. Now we are paying the price for that.

Syrians are refugees when tey enter the first safe country such as Jordan or Turkey. Every other border they cross makes them migrants in pursuit for a better life. Thus they should be correctly called migrants once they enter Europe (uncontrolled), I don't blame them, they would be stupid if they wouldnt try.
Even people arround me who voted for the Green party for decades now start to realise it can't go on like that.


Now we are paying the price for that.
They are coming to us because we don't do anything against it, although we would have all the means to do so. And we for this we will have to pay the price.

[Lisa]

To Cameron and Merkel
http://echo.msk.ru/blog/weller_michael/1619776-echo/

[Bezprym]

Be sure, your government will find money for them, no matter how wealthy or poor country is. Migrants can have about 50 euros per day and free living room without care about work.

I know, this is what I am saying - they will have gift from the government, apartments, jobs. While native Poles quite often do not have this comfort.

What I think about this whole situation is:

American politics started it. The United States destroyed stable enough governments leading to the complete anarchy. They promised locals bringing democracy, and other positive stuff, while in practise they just destroyed everything around and left people with all this mess. I am not saying it were only Americans - unfortunately, the whole Coalition of the willing took part in this destabilizing madness and here I am talking in particular about: the USA, Australia, Poland, United Kingdom, who contributed troops to the invasion force. Now we - simple civilians of simple countries are paying the price of our governments stupidity.

This is why I can understand politicians attitude towards greeting refugees - these governments are responsible for what is happening. However, they also forgot, that main goal of politics is building a comfortable country for the nation at first place. What [Polish, because I mostly follow what happens at my place] politicans promise to the immigrants/refugees is just a bullshit. They want to give them money, while Poles are in fact forced to escape from Poland to another countries to earn some normal money. They want to give them places to live, while many young Poles (also those in their 30s-40s) are forced to live with their parents, because buying an apartment is too expensive. They will also give them a job, while many Poles cannot find it here and even people with higher education have to clean some shit on the streets.

I am not opposed toward letting some numbers of refugees to stay here for a while. But I oppose making them feel like in home. With such attitude these refugees may change their behaviour and start to act like in Western Europe, while in fact the country must be strong enough and treat refugees and immigrants as foreigners. In Western Europe people have these distcrits with "sharia law", what is an absurd. If they will have to come here, I'd like to see that my law enforcement is able to deal with such morons, caught them, put in jail and send back to Syria. You come to Poland, then respect Polish law, putting your sharia in the ass. I am quite optimistic though, as I am almost sure, that if any Muslim here will start to act in suspicious ways, our citizens will be able to deal with them by themselves.

[EL_BARBARO]

I disagree completely. Onr million war refugees in a population of 500 million isn't going to change anything that hasn't been changed already after 7 decades of Americans and their cultural globalisation and prioaganda machine haven't achieved yet. In essence tgetels no difference between germans, french, spaniards, britons an italians. our "regional" cultured are long dead anyway aside from isolated and ageing pueblos of the "dark" zone of the light-pollution-map.

The folk residues like the feria de abril or the oktober fest are just meaningless tourist attractions.


Simply observed it could be understood you are right.

But it is not only a question of figures.

It is a question of time.

Perhaps these refugees can't cause big problems in the short term, but they could in the medium term.

Why? Because of their belief, which demand them to spread it to the others. Anyhow.

A belief which has nothing to do with the european culture, in some cases it is just straightly opposite to it.

And they have lastly -or rather always- picked the violence and the terrorism as a tool to force the others to have their beliefs.

Don't forget the so many "normal" muslims have already act as terrorists in Europe.

Don't forget a war (jihad) against West is declared.

Don't forget Christian Churches aren't usually allowed in the muslim countries.

And if allowed, I think most of them were already burned to their basements -even with people inside.

However West World offers tolerance and respect to any belief. And protect that.

They are taking advantage from this way to live and to understand.

But they don't allow in their countries this kind of life and understanding.

They don't tend to respect these customs nor these norms.

They attempt more and more frequently to force the others their norms and even their custums.

The more they grow the more harshly shout against the norms, the customs and the laws of the countries which admit them.

What to do then?

[ius semper]

This is my point of view, due to the massive influx of refugees and economic migrants in recent weeks from the Middle East, Asia, Africa etc. It seems the very fabric of European culture and society is put under threat. This situation could eventually change the demographics and face of Europe forever, like the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has warned.

Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic seem to be at the forefront in guarding the borders. Some international critics argue Orban is too harsh/extreme, but he raises very valid points that should be considered by all of Europe. People should not just think of the present, but of the long-term consequences of what is happening now. European society as we know it seems under threat. It is the sheer scale of the influx which is most concerning. I personally am no xenophobe or racist, but common sense is common sense. Europe just cannot cope with this amount of immigrants, and this is only the present. How will Europe look like in, say, 50 or 100 years from now?

A cleric (from Lebanon I think?) said that the migrants should "breed with Europeans in order to conquer Europe eventually". Of course that is just inflammatory rhetoric and I have no doubt that the vast majority of refugees are genuine (especially from Syria) and should be helped. But the root causes should be tackled, and soon. I think it is clear by now that the US's previous military adventures in Iraq has left a void waiting to be filled. And in Syria, America's support for the rebels has just prolonged the civil war, which could have been over by now if the US and other countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia did not support the uprising or so-called "Arab Spring". Look at Libya ... it was very stable under Gaddafi, and he was even becoming more mild and tried to mend relations in Europe. What was his reward? Regime change, and his death. Today Libya is a failed state with no functioning government. So, can anyone blame people from trying to flee these nightmare scenarios? I really feel for these refugees. But relocating them all to Europe is not the answer. It is effectively a brain drain on Syria. Who will be left there to rebuild the country after the war has ended?

Angela Merkel is partially (to a great extent) to blame for the massive increase in refugees wanting to go to Germany. This could change the face of Germany forever. Did she consult with the German people on this very serious matter before inviting them all to come? Her actions are inexplicable and irrational.

I really can't understand why the US does not want to work with Syria's government in order to get rid if ISIL. Hopefully Putin's initiative to form a broader coalition against these brutal, inhumane terrorists will bear fruit and end the unnecessary civil war.

So, my point with this thread is that Apricity as a European Cultural Community is a very relevant place for people to discuss Europe's future and its current challenges. :)

Your friend putin ( who I do consider a great leader ) has just built a massive mask in moscow

[EL_BARBARO]

Your friend putin ( who I do consider a great leader ) has just built a massive mask in moscow


Yeah, unbelievable. The world biggest one, I think.

Attempt to build a Church in their countries and wait and see.

[Loki]

They are coming to us because we don't do anything against it,

So are you suggesting that Western support of the uprising in Syria has nothing to do with it? It has everything to do with it.

[abcd123]

No, I don't like him at all :laugh:

Now I am starting to feel the same about him too.

[Marusya]

I know, this is what I am saying - they will have gift from the government, apartments, jobs. While native Poles quite often do not have this comfort.

What I think about this whole situation is:

American politics started it. The United States destroyed stable enough governments leading to the complete anarchy. They promised locals bringing democracy, and other positive stuff, while in practise they just destroyed everything around and left people with all this mess. I am not saying it were only Americans - unfortunately, the whole Coalition of the willing took part in this destabilizing madness and here I am talking in particular about: the USA, Australia, Poland, United Kingdom, who contributed troops to the invasion force. Now we - simple civilians of simple countries are paying the price of our governments stupidity.

This is why I can understand politicians attitude towards greeting refugees - these governments are responsible for what is happening. However, they also forgot, that main goal of politics is building a comfortable country for the nation at first place. What [Polish, because I mostly follow what happens at my place] politicans promise to the immigrants/refugees is just a bullshit. They want to give them money, while Poles are in fact forced to escape from Poland to another countries to earn some normal money. They want to give them places to live, while many young Poles (also those in their 30s-40s) are forced to live with their parents, because buying an apartment is too expensive. They will also give them a job, while many Poles cannot find it here and even people with higher education have to clean some shit on the streets.

I am not opposed toward letting some numbers of refugees to stay here for a while. But I oppose making them feel like in home. With such attitude these refugees may change their behaviour and start to act like in Western Europe, while in fact the country must be strong enough and treat refugees and immigrants as foreigners. In Western Europe people have these distcrits with "sharia law", what is an absurd. If they will have to come here, I'd like to see that my law enforcement is able to deal with such morons, caught them, put in jail and send back to Syria. You come to Poland, then respect Polish law, putting your sharia in the ass. I am quite optimistic though, as I am almost sure, that if any Muslim here will start to act in suspicious ways, our citizens will be able to deal with them by themselves.

I agree with what you have written here. However, I think some of the rich Arab countries need to take some of these refugees. They are their own, after all.

[Brianna]

I think that we need to preserve and protect European culture. They embrace other cultures. We should be embraced too. European history is intertwined with world history. It is integral to the changes and progress of the world. That is worth saving. I don't like this influx of refugees. It doesn't sit well with me. I'm fine with the humanitarian cases, but it's realistic to think that there are SOME criminals and terrorists among them. I'm sorry. We're under no obligation to commit suicide. We have to take a stand. It is our imperative. No other continent would sacrifice themselves at the altar of political correctness. Let us not commit hari kari.

[Isleño]

This is my point of view, due to the massive influx of refugees and economic migrants in recent weeks from the Middle East, Asia, Africa etc. It seems the very fabric of European culture and society is put under threat. This situation could eventually change the demographics and face of Europe forever, like the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has warned.

Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic seem to be at the forefront in guarding the borders. Some international critics argue Orban is too harsh/extreme, but he raises very valid points that should be considered by all of Europe. People should not just think of the present, but of the long-term consequences of what is happening now. European society as we know it seems under threat. It is the sheer scale of the influx which is most concerning. I personally am no xenophobe or racist, but common sense is common sense. Europe just cannot cope with this amount of immigrants, and this is only the present. How will Europe look like in, say, 50 or 100 years from now?

A cleric (from Lebanon I think?) said that the migrants should "breed with Europeans in order to conquer Europe eventually". Of course that is just inflammatory rhetoric and I have no doubt that the vast majority of refugees are genuine (especially from Syria) and should be helped. But the root causes should be tackled, and soon. I think it is clear by now that the US's previous military adventures in Iraq has left a void waiting to be filled. And in Syria, America's support for the rebels has just prolonged the civil war, which could have been over by now if the US and other countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia did not support the uprising or so-called "Arab Spring". Look at Libya ... it was very stable under Gaddafi, and he was even becoming more mild and tried to mend relations in Europe. What was his reward? Regime change, and his death. Today Libya is a failed state with no functioning government. So, can anyone blame people from trying to flee these nightmare scenarios? I really feel for these refugees. But relocating them all to Europe is not the answer. It is effectively a brain drain on Syria. Who will be left there to rebuild the country after the war has ended?

Angela Merkel is partially (to a great extent) to blame for the massive increase in refugees wanting to go to Germany. This could change the face of Germany forever. Did she consult with the German people on this very serious matter before inviting them all to come? Her actions are inexplicable and irrational.

I really can't understand why the US does not want to work with Syria's government in order to get rid if ISIL. Hopefully Putin's initiative to form a broader coalition against these brutal, inhumane terrorists will bear fruit and end the unnecessary civil war.

So, my point with this thread is that Apricity as a European Cultural Community is a very relevant place for people to discuss Europe's future and its current challenges. :)

I completely agree with this. Immigration when it is small and controlled, poses no direct threat to the host population and even in fact can bring some things that benefit us, such ethnic food restaurants and things like that. But when immigration becomes large and massive and unchecked as it is now in Europe, it goes from being no direct threat and something casual that could bring a few good things with it, to a direct threat and the host population under grave danger of genetic and cultural replacement or even miscegenation, which is a direct threat to the host population.

My big question is why isn't Arab countries jumping to the chance to help their fellow Muslims? I see Europe is under stress with so many immigrants at it's borders and as I understand, there are many millions of immigrants in Europe already. Saudi Arabia offered to build more mosques in Germany for the immigrants. Like really? One side of that is people could take that as an attempt to help Islam conquer Europe. Muammar Gaddafi once said " "We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."

So no, I do not believe Europe should have to try and place all these immigrants. A few maybe as a humanitarian effort but as many as are coming, no way. Europeans have to look at their future if they want Europe to remain native European, or do they want to be replaced or miscegenated. This is very important. I see all this immigration and something tells me that something is bubbling beneath the surface in Europe and something is going to happen soon that will not be very nice. I don't want to say civil war or a Middle Ages-like Spanish reconquest type of event, but something negative involving anarchy may result out of this in Europe's near future.

The immigration problem in the US is also large, but unlike Europe who are natives of that continent, American-born Americans are silenced often by the left based on the fact that they are not natives to the land and the incoming immigrants (most whom are from Latin America) are native to the American continent (most of them, but not all). Europe does not have this scenario tied to them, so I think they may actually rebel in the future where the US will probably not and the United States will become in the future like any of the multiracial countries in Latin America, with those that do not agree emigrating from the US and those that do agree, staying in the US and becoming part of that multiracial future.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The U.S., especially the Obama administration is definitely to blame for the ISIS rise with the withdrawal of troops in Iraq than leave behind a residual force like we currently do in Afghanistan. The issue isn't that we went in Iraq but that we left without leaving behind a residual force. Something that some of the still-free renegade Baathists like al-Douri took advantage of.

One of the issues with the Assad regime is that he doesn't have the support of the majority Sunni population. It's why I'm against the direct Russian intervention that's taking place right now. Putin is making the situation worse, not better. Assad seriously cannot be expected to continue ruling Syria after five years of brutal civil war. He has to retire and move on though he probably will have to answer for the civil war. Not going to see any kind of graceful retirement. It was Assad who chose to violently suppress the protests and turned Syrians against him after all.

By the way, it was the right thing to back the opposition, but other radical players like Turkey and Saudi Arabia didn't just back the opposition they also backed the jihadists who later formed the Islamic State. A threat Obama vastly underestimated.

Assad staying means more refugees flowing to Europe and elsewhere. Nobody wants to see Assad continue ruling except for his clique and minority demographic support. Assad needs to go like Mubarak went. Otherwise, Syrians will keep running for benefits in Europe on the grounds that a murderous dictator still rules the country whether the war's ended or not.

On Libya, it's arguable whether backing Gadhafi over the rebels would have kept Libya stable. Most likely it could have prolonged the civil war against the majority population who hates Gadhafi.

[noricum]

So are you suggesting that Western support of the uprising in Syria has nothing to do with it? It has everything to do with it.

Sure western support caused or at leaset increased the conflict and eventually caused many Syrians to flee. But if we wouldn't let them in, they wouldn't come in, thats my point.
It like the British argument: You know we where a empire with many colonies, you just can't avoid people from all former colonies to come in - of course you can if you want to!

[Loki]

My big question is why isn't Arab countries jumping to the chance to help their fellow Muslims?

Good question indeed.

Some Arab countries are helping, and are actually bearing the brunt of the refugee crisis. For example, Jordan and Lebanon. And Turkey (although not Arabic, but it's a border state.

The vast majority of displaced Syrians are in refugee camps in Jordan and Turkey. Their numbers actually dwarf the number of refugees who have come to Europe up to this point. In Jordan, for example, there is a tent camp erected for Syrian refugees that has basically developed into a massive tent city. Hundreds of thousands of people there ... unprecedented in history.

So, instead of taking in refugees, it would make more sense for Europe to provide financial assistance to countries like Jordan, in order for them to cope with the crisis and look after the refugees until it is safe enough in Syria for them to return and help rebuild their country.

[щрбл]

I really can't understand why the US does not want to work with Syria's government in order to get rid if ISIL. Hopefully Putin's initiative to form a broader coalition against these brutal, inhumane terrorists will bear fruit and end the unnecessary civil war.

Because whilst failing to face its own social problems (and which are about to cause its end) the US administration sees in the European crisis a triple advantage:

1. Creating chaos in Europe. It's one the last places which one could still call at least semi-democratic. Crippling the European countries with Muslims is one way among others to defeat their greatest rival, the whole union. The fragile social link between people, something that is absolutely hated by individualist countries like the US, will be definitely broken if the populations become too heterogeneous and for example where the indigenous people would have to bear the new arrivals on their backs.

2. A huge economical advantage : diverting the public opinion from the economical crisis in order to open the common market to the large american companies. For example, people seem to forget too easily about the transatlantic treaty...

3. Ensuring cheap petrol which ISIS sells under the market prices.

Pissing Russia off, as well?

And probably many many more other reasons which I can't think of right now.

[Mraz]

Any comments? :)


We will see a new World emerging soon. I doubt the future will be bright for any of us. Only a fool person would allow a stranger in his home and this without conditions. I doubt our leaders are fools. As you said Syria won't be able to rebuild itself, but let me tell you that the so called Islamic State is there to stay, they will take care of creating an obscurantist society, force their sick ideas on people and keep them on a leash while accepting to be integrated to the Capitalist economy, basically the previous dictators gave their people jobs, healthcare, education...The new ones will give them illiteracy and poverty while selling their oil for cheap. On the other side European people will clash with those new migrants who seem to believe that they deserve everything and that their host countries are like their backyard.

[Bezprym]

I agree with what you have written here. However, I think some of the rich Arab countries need to take some of these refugees. They are their own, after all.

Yes. Although I am not sure if Saudi Arabia is a good destination for Syrians and Iraqis. They wouldn't be safe there at all :p However, sure, Arabic countries should be first to help them, unfortunately we are unable to decide what Arabs will do and a fact that Saudis for instance do nothing in that matter doesn't mean we should behave like them - it were not Saudis who destroyed Iraq and Libya.

[Marusya]

Some opinion pieces I read today that paint a scary future for Europe.


Prepare for a Muslim Europe

Noah Klieger
Yedioth Ahronoth

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4698778,00.html

“Whether out of innocence or out of foolishness,” Europe has just volunteered to destroy its own culture, said Noah Klieger. By opening its borders to hundreds of thousands of Muslim refugees, the European Union has guaranteed that within a few decades we will witness the “establishment of an Islamic rule across the entire continent.” This should have been clear to Germany, which has already failed to integrate hundreds of thousands of Turkish migrant workers. Even after they were in Germany for decades, the Turks kept their language and their traditions—including “vendettas and honor killing.” France and Sweden also have problems with the Muslim minorities already on their soil. And those are the rich countries! The EU thinks it can disperse refugees among all its members, but it’s far from assured that eastern countries like Poland or the Czech Republic will agree, and we can assume that “not a single refugee will agree to settle in countries like Bulgaria and Romania, which are among the poorest in Europe.” Instead, they will cluster in Germany and France and multiply, as their birthrate far outstrips that of the natives. The result will be “the complete disappearance of the tradition, culture, and progress” of Western Europe.




“consider the Somalis,” said Ian Tuttle in NationalReview.com. The U.S. has welcomed tens of thousands of refugees from war-torn Somalia. The largest concentration has settled in Minneapolis, where instead of assimilating, many have “self-ghettoized” in a neighborhood dubbed Little Mogadishu that’s become a terrorist breeding ground. More than 60 young Somalis have left the state to join ISIS and other groups, lured by social media recruiters. It’s not hard to imagine “a ‘Little Damascus’ cropping up in Buffalo or Kansas City” that “is sure to incubate national security threats that will not manifest themselves for 20 years.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/423902/obama-syrian-refugee-plan-somalis


The civil war in Syria has uprooted 49 percent of the country’s population. If the same happened in the U.S., that would be about 158 million people—the equivalent of every man, woman, and child in 29 states.CNN.com


At least 66 Americans have been accused of supporting the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) since the beginning of 2014. Most were charged with planning to join the caliphate in the Middle East. Ten were women, and at least seven were people accused of plotting terrorist attacks at home.TheDailyBeast.com

[Miekka]

I have a rather novel idea for these alleged "refugees" (opportunist Muhummadan invaders), stay and fight for your homeland, organize your own militias, cooperate with the Syrian Army and form a solid resistance bloc. I won't even bother digging up the disproportionately high percentage of these "refugees" that are nothing more than military-age, single men that barge in, iPhoning it up all over Europe... A number of these individuals have demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt their appreciation for Europe's generosity, "Another group of men, this time Syrians, was also waiting for instructions of how to get back to Stockholm. They had spent a week in the “lousy city of Tornio” and had had enough of it. Finns are beginning to be sick and tired of these “asylum seekers” who are fit men dressed in nice clothes and iPhoning around the world."--> http://mvlehti.net/2015/09/20/refugees-flee-from-finland-back-to-sweden-finland-is-dark-cold-and-racist/

ISIS infiltration is a fairy tale?: http://mvlehti.net/2015/09/11/isis-infiltration-is-a-fairy-tale/

Non-Syrian refugees scrapping national identities, using fake passports: http://www.ibtimes.com.au/non-syrian-refugees-scrapping-national-identities-using-fake-passports-1465097

German Media Covering Up Rapes Committed by Muslim Migrants: http://www.eutimes.net/2015/09/german-media-covering-up-rapes-committed-by-muslim-migrants/

"Refugees" literally pissing on the graves of Europeans: http://www.telegraaf.nl/tv/nieuws/buitenland/24523608/__Vluchtelingen_slapen_op_kerkhof__.html

http://oi60.tinypic.com/28toat.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Because whilst failing to face its own social problems (and which are about to cause its end) the US administration sees in the European crisis a triple advantage:

1. Creating chaos in Europe. It's one the last places which one could still call at least semi-democratic. Crippling the European countries with Muslims is one way among others to defeat their greatest rival, the whole union. The fragile social link between people, something that is absolutely hated by individualist countries like the US, will be definitely broken if the populations become too heterogeneous and for example where the indigenous people would have to bear the new arrivals on their backs.

2. A huge economical advantage : diverting the public opinion from the economical crisis in order to open the common market to the large american companies. For example, people seem to forget too easily about the transatlantic treaty...

3. Ensuring cheap petrol which ISIS sells under the market prices.

Pissing Russia off, as well?

And probably many many more other reasons which I can't think of right now.

This is a terrible post but Loki naturally thumbed it up. Anti-American cunts are getting rather tiresome with your conspiracy theories.

[Armenian Bishop]

It's ominously ugly to see ISIS tear through the Middle East and expand their influence into the MENA. The refugee crisis has moved the consequences of the tragedy into the neighborhoods of Europe. I think that Europe should take action to neutralize ISIS, as well as the USA and Russia. China might also be of some help, against ISIS. Russia has sent military personnel into Syria, which is a good step in the right direction.

The millions of refugees flooding into Europe have left their homes in the MENA, to save themselves from execution, or enslavement, by IS extremists. Those millions of good folks from the MENA, flee from countries infected by the cancer of the Islamic State; they leave a vacuum behind of abandoned homes, which is being replaced by Islamic Extremism and corporal punishment.

What will come of the area, when ISIS is finally expelled. Europe, the USA and Russia must take action to destroy IS at it's source.

[Armenian Bishop]

ISIS is a Frankenstein Monster gone wild, that must be neutralized by its creators. The USA may have been instrumental in its creation, but they desperately want to extinguish it now. The USA and Turkey have good reasons to be worried, as well as Europe.

[Brianna]

It's ominously ugly to see ISIS tear through the Middle East and expand their influence into the MENA. The refugee crisis has moved the consequences of the tragedy into the neighborhoods of Europe. I think that Europe should take action to neutralize ISIS, as well as the USA and Russia. China might also be of some help, against ISIS. Russia has sent military personnel into Syria, which is a good step in the right direction.

The millions of refugees flooding into Europe have left their homes in the MENA, to save themselves from execution, or enslavement, by IS extremists. Those millions of good folks from the MENA, flee from countries infected by the cancer of the Islamic State; they leave a vacuum behind of abandoned homes, which is being replaced by Islamic Extremism and corporal punishment.

What will come of the area, when ISIS is finally expelled. Europe, the USA and Russia must take action to destroy IS at it's source.

I agree with that. However, how do you know that some terrorists aren't pretending to be refugees?

[blizzard]

ISIS is a Frankenstein Monster gone wild, that must be neutralized by its creators. The USA may have been instrumental in its creation, but they desperately want to extinguish it now.
No. They want ISIS, Kurds and Syria exterminate each other, and remove Assad. Then they will get control on gas and oil in region, and its transfer route.

[щрбл]

This is a terrible post but Loki naturally thumbed it up. Anti-American cunts are getting rather tiresome with your conspiracy theories.

Right. So I'm an anti-american cunt because I'm describing the obvious reality or because you disagree? Please, that's too easy. Social engineering is a discipline taught in most of universities. It's all around you on a daily basis, every time you turn on the radio or the telly.

As an example of cheap manipulation from the mass media, I'll ask a few perhaps rhetoric questions and would like to have your general opinion or them as a pro-American notcunt. :)

-Why are we bombarded with images of children and women whilst they represent not even 1/10th of the immigrant influx?
-Why are these people called Syrians when they clearly are not for the most part?
-Why do the media interchangeably use the words "immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers, migrants" when they clearly not. I have an English dictionary at home and I can confirm that.
-Why is nobody makes a difference between assimilation and integration?

What about the roots of the problem? Nobody really talks about it. All we have the right to hear about is "There is a terrible war, let's help these people." This is a my top 5 list of personal questions which have never ever been answered by any piece of mainstream media. And I wish they were.

- Where did ISIS get their arms and how much did it cost? Did they buy them or did they receive them? Where do the petrol barrels go in the occupied area. Do they sell them? To Whom do they sell them? At what price, perhaps under 45$(~current price) Why are they allowed to do so, considering they are surrounded by NATO allies. What is the monthly wage of an ISIS fighter? Where do they money come from?

- Why are the human traffickers tolerated? Why is Turkey shipping people of all origins to Greece? Why is Turkey helping ISIS by bombing Kurdish camps, considering Turks are NATO allies, obviously. One could have said otherwise some days.

- How is it possible that the most powerful army (yes, that is yours!!) cannot deal with a bunch of sand-dwellers with pointy sticks in a matter of weeks? Why do you think your country which has dozens of bases in the area can't deal with the problem..

- There is a deep contradiction with Socialists and Democrats when it comes to promoting mass immigration, regarding the domestic policy. Democrats promote letting in thousands of Muslims which are extremely far from being a democratic bunch of people. Socialists promote mass immigration, yet they willingly refuse to answer the social dumping effect contradicting all they 'fight' for. How is that the whole center/left and center/fight wings agree on being completely idiotic? Perhaps there's a hidden logic somewhere but I fail to see it... yet.

- Why is nobody talking about incompatibility between our way of life and theirs? Why have ghettos become camps? Why has social cohesion become solidarity towards the 3rd world countries and their problems? Why is nobody talking about birth rates or changing the demographic landscape on the long term, etc.

I obviously don't want you to answer but am only pointing out contradictions in general. Anyone would agree on the massive manipulations. Whether it comes to refusing to deal with the conflict in depth or remaining mute when it comes to systematically present detailed statistics on the people disembarking on the European shores or simply using a semantic field and/or strong images in order to emotionally blackmail the largest number of people... I think it's dishonest and tiresome but then I'm an anti-American cunt, too, so what would I know about it. :)

[Rudel]

Your friend putin ( who I do consider a great leader ) has just built a massive mask in moscow
Russia has indigenous Muslim. They're just catering to rural exiles from the Caucasus in Moscow. That comes with having an empire.

The fabric of most countries in the West of Europe started unraveling after WW2, with the American influence and the unraveling of colonial empires. Prancing like goats on cocaine now is being a bit late to the party.
Fixating on Islam is idiocy and only hurts those who do. There's a geopolitical and demographic issue, religion comes well behind.


I think that we need to preserve and protect European culture.
Preserving European culture is destroying European cultures.


We should be embraced too.
Bleh. The French culture isn't something I want to be put on display like some quaint painting, as if all things were equal.


Crippling the European countries with Muslims is one way among others to defeat their greatest rival, the whole union.
Nonsense. There's nothing to cripple, the union doesn't matter to Americans. It's self-crippling.


The fragile social link between people, something that is absolutely hated by individualist countries like the US
There's far more social link in the US than there is in Western and Central Europe.


I doubt our leaders are fools.
I don't.

[Drawing-slim]

The best solution for Europe at this point is to submit to Allah. Now this doesn't mean that Europe should or is going to follow the sharia law in anyway, but the way Europe is making headlines in a good way "Conquering with kindness", is the best way IMO.

[Loki]

The best solution for Europe at this point is to submit to Allah.

:heh:

Which one? The Sunni or Shia one? They hate and kill each other by blowing up people in their mosques while they are praying. Doesn't sound too good, does it? Submitting to Allah, it seems, will only bring more problems?

[poiuytrewq0987]

Right. So I'm an anti-american cunt because I'm describing the obvious reality or because you disagree? Please, that's too easy. Social engineering is a discipline taught in most of universities. It's all around you on a daily basis, every time you turn on the radio or the telly.

Erm, I disagreed with you because you delved into some of the most outrageous conspiracy theories about America I've read in a while.


-Why are we bombarded with images of children and women whilst they represent not even 1/10th of the immigrant influx?

What does this have to do with the American government? There are a lot of liberals who are sensitive about what happens in Syria, not because there is a grand conspiracy.


-Why are these people called Syrians when they clearly are not for the most part?

This is plain stupid. They are called Syrians because that's the name of the country they live in.


-Why do the media interchangeably use the words "immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers, migrants" when they clearly not. I have an English dictionary at home and I can confirm that.

It's because the media have no idea what to make of them.


-Why is nobody makes a difference between assimilation and integration?

There IS a difference, but I'm not sure what specific topic you're talking about here.


What about the roots of the problem? Nobody really talks about it. All we have the right to hear about is "There is a terrible war, let's help these people." This is a my top 5 list of personal questions which have never ever been answered by any piece of mainstream media. And I wish they were.

It's been answered plenty of times. Bashar al-Assad attempted to suppress the protests to democratize Syria violently and this backfired on him. He started the civil war, and we want to help Syrians be free of the murderous dictator. Eventually, when al-Assad goes, the refugees in Europe will have no excuse to stay and will be forced to go back.


- Where did ISIS get their arms and how much did it cost? Did they buy them or did they receive them? Where do the petrol barrels go in the occupied area. Do they sell them? To Whom do they sell them? At what price, perhaps under 45$(~current price) Why are they allowed to do so, considering they are surrounded by NATO allies. What is the monthly wage of an ISIS fighter? Where do they money come from?

We didn't fund the ISIS or other jihadists. Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia did.


- Why are the human traffickers tolerated? Why is Turkey shipping people of all origins to Greece? Why is Turkey helping ISIS by bombing Kurdish camps, considering Turks are NATO allies, obviously. One could have said otherwise some days.

Erm, you should be writing letters to the government of Turkey to do something about it. They're the ones with open borders policy.


- How is it possible that the most powerful army (yes, that is yours!!) cannot deal with a bunch of sand-dwellers with pointy sticks in a matter of weeks? Why do you think your country which has dozens of bases in the area can't deal with the problem..

We can't just carpet bomb Syria. There are civilian considerations, and as such the Muslims would use the excuse of accidental bombing to get revenge.


- There is a deep contradiction with Socialists and Democrats when it comes to promoting mass immigration, regarding the domestic policy. Democrats promote letting in thousands of Muslims which are extremely far from being a democratic bunch of people. Socialists promote mass immigration, yet they willingly refuse to answer the social dumping effect contradicting all they 'fight' for. How is that the whole center/left and center/fight wings agree on being completely idiotic? Perhaps there's a hidden logic somewhere but I fail to see it... yet.

What socialists are you talking about? We have only one proclaimed socialist in America and he's some Jew out of Vermont. Naturally, none of us want to see Muslims resettled in America or Europe but the currents of politics are such that the liberals get to dictate policy. Men like Viktor Orban are far and few.

-
Why is nobody talking about incompatibility between our way of life and theirs? Why have ghettos become camps? Why has social cohesion become solidarity towards the 3rd world countries and their problems? Why is nobody talking about birth rates or changing the demographic landscape on the long term, etc.

We're talking about it, and is one of the reasons why Donald Trump has rose so meteorically - because of the third world problem.


I obviously don't want you to answer but am only pointing out contradictions in general. Anyone would agree on the massive manipulations. Whether it comes to refusing to deal with the conflict in depth or remaining mute when it comes to systematically present detailed statistics on the people disembarking on the European shores or simply using a semantic field and/or strong images in order to emotionally blackmail the largest number of people... I think it's dishonest and tiresome but then I'm an anti-American cunt, too, so what would I know about it. :)

You didn't point out the contradictions, but outlined some weird conspiracy theories that have no basis in reality.

[щрбл]

What does this have to do with the American government? There are a lot of liberals who are sensitive about what happens in Syria, not because there is a grand conspiracy. This is plain stupid. They are called Syrians because that's the name of the country they live in. It's because the media have no idea what to make of them.

I'm pretending that the extremely biased way of throwing words and images has a purpose, which is precisely to emotionally blackmail the European populace whilst refusing to recognize the demographic reality of the influx (most of them aren't Syrians anyway that is why calling them Syrians is stupid..) as well as concealing its economical causes for example. The link with the American government is that it has funded yet again a failed revolution by (among others) sending weapons many of which have ended in the hands of the isis folks.

Now as for the precise use of words. They are asylum seekers in a war zone, refugees in Turkey, migrants in Greece, legal or illegal immigrants in Germany. Again, I see this as a cheap manipulation. Imho, one should precisely name problems in order to solve them, unless one doesn't want to do that or has a different agenda! I don't think journalists are stupid people, in general.



There IS a difference, but I'm not sure what specific topic you're talking about here.

It's closely related the same topic as above. The lack of strong policy on immigration or the voluntarily permissive one, depends on the point of view, is hidden behind some mild and politically correct words. Assimilation is actually a taboo in many countries. The use of the word "integration" is generally preferred because nobody is to disturb the foreigners, nobody is to force them to change their beliefs or way of life, in order to fit ours... One of the most visible side effects is the formation of disgusting ghettos, the lowering of wages, etc.



It's been answered plenty of times. Bashar al-Assad attempted to suppress the protests to democratize Syria violently and this backfired on him. He started the civil war, and we want to help Syrians be free of the murderous dictator. Eventually, when al-Assad goes, the refugees in Europe will have no excuse to stay and will be forced to go back.

There is far worse than Assad in the region, yet nobody complains. Some groups of people aren't just made to be democratic. It might sound a bit racist but it could turn out to be true, too.



We didn't fund the ISIS or other jihadists. Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia did.

Turkey has indeed its own interests. However, Qatar and Saudi Arabia are just a handful of missiles away from kicking the bucket. They are just puppet regimes supported by Nato/US. If one were concerned about human rights, these 2 countries would be the first to go. But then again, money doesn't smell, does it?



Erm, you should be writing letters to the government of Turkey to do something about it. They're the ones with open borders policy.

I'm doing something even better, I'm giving my vote to the people who will do so!



We can't just carpet bomb Syria. There are civilian considerations, and as such the Muslims would use the excuse of accidental bombing to get revenge.

I wouldn't know as I'm a civilian but it's still not an argument. There is just no will to end the conflict. There are probably 2 or 3 refineries at most and a limited number of petrol wells to be bombed. But then again, money doesn't smell.



What socialists are you talking about? We have only one proclaimed socialist in America and he's some Jew out of Vermont. Naturally, none of us want to see Muslims resettled in America or Europe but the currents of politics are such that the liberals get to dictate policy. Men like Viktor Orban are far and few.

I meant the European ones, I wasn't clear, indeed.



You didn't point out the contradictions, but outlined some weird conspiracy theories that have no basis in reality.

You are unfair, because I really did! I pointed out that speaking about the problems and appealing to one's emotions is dishonest and manipulative. On the contrary, talking about the causes of the war, the money flow (the most important bit actually), the roles of each one of the regional actors as well as the global ones in detail is something that very few media outlets do.

[щрбл]

Nonsense. There's nothing to cripple, the union doesn't matter to Americans. It's self-crippling.
But it does! Why is everyone forgetting about TTIP? Or perhaps you see it as the last nail to the European coffin? xD


There's far more social link in the US than there is in Western and Central Europe.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I suppose you are referring to personal initiatives or NGOs/local associations. Is it possible to quantify this kind of stuff..? But anyway, when it comes to the official policy, I see the social security system as a social contract (based on trust and a few laws) between the people and their state. Add too many leeches to the system and it's going to break.

[Drawing-slim]

:heh:

Which one? The Sunni or Shia one? They hate and kill each other by blowing up people in their mosques while they are praying. Doesn't sound too good, does it? Submitting to Allah, it seems, will only bring more problems?

Sunni is where its at. That's the cool trendy religion:cool: