How did Finns become white?

[Southerner]

This has always confused me. The Finns are a Uralic group just like the Sami and Nenets, yet the Finns don't look Asiatic. Finns have one of the highest concentrations of blue eyes and blonde hair in Europe. How did dark skinned Asiatic folks turn into what they are today? I guess the same question could be applied to the Hungarians as well.

[Diocletian]

How did dark skinned Asiatic folks turn into what they are today?

I'm barely holding myself back not to swear on this idiocy.

[sql]

Only a fraction of your ancestors are from the group that brought you your language. Finns are 7% NE Asian.

[Raikaswinþs]

This has always confused me. The Finns are a Uralic group just like the Sami and Nenets, yet the Finns don't look Asiatic. Finns have one of the highest concentrations of blue eyes and blonde hair in Europe. How did dark skinned Asiatic folks turn into what they are today? I guess the same question could be applied to the Hungarians as well.

they don't?

http://static.iltalehti.fi/jalkapallo/vaakamixu1510_503_jp.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/cwrothman/SGbgFJTp9vI/AAAAAAAAA6E/rC8sDJDHoKE/image%5B13%5D.png?imgmax=800

http://oud.fashionscene.nl/images/library/16/3a/1f/97/dd_annmarie.jpg

http://en.people.cn/200508/22/images/0821_E67.jpg

http://www.protocolo.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/ministro-finlandes.jpg

Some definitely have a strong vibe.


Regardless, what do you mean ? Aren't Asians white? (I suppose you mean East Asians/Siberians) what colour are then then?


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Yakut_costume_7.jpg/590px-Yakut_costume_7.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/dd/4b/77dd4b52b108e54f18ece4bca4856317.jpg

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Mixed heavily with Hunter-Gatherer descended Northerners, which are the ancestors of Swedes.

[GiCa]

finaland latitude and climat requires blond hair and blue eyes (phototype II)

[Also]

Finns are closer to east asians than other yuropeans in general. Yellow blood is stronk, many of them look a quarter or half asian.

[Grab the Gauge]

Blue eyes and light skin have been in the area for at least 17,000 years (Swedish Mesolithic hunter gatherers). No one believes Saami were ever purely Mongoloid, there was always WHG nearby.

[Berahthraban]

Linguistics is not the same thing as genetics. Finns are a only a few percent East Asian, 3 - 7%.

[Grab the Gauge]

Linguistics is not the same thing as genetics. Finns are a only a few percent East Asian, 3 - 7%.

Even if this were true (the percentage is far higher), 3-7% is the equivalent contribution of a geat great great grandparent and is enough to produce this "look":

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Sea_sami_man.jpg

[Arhat]

This has always confused me. The Finns are a Uralic group just like the Sami and Nenets, yet the Finns don't look Asiatic. Finns have one of the highest concentrations of blue eyes and blonde hair in Europe. How did dark skinned Asiatic folks turn into what they are today? I guess the same question could be applied to the Hungarians as well.

Finnish DNA is predominately from Northern Corded Ware tribes which adopted Uralic languages. But we don't know how Proto-Uralics were genetically or how they exactly looked like. They certainly had a major Siberian affinity but I am sure also a high EHG/ANE. Finns still carry large amounts of Uralic Y-DNA. Hungarians are an entire different story and indeed carry minimal autosomal and Y-DNA from original Uralics but they became very late Uralic speaking and the Magyars were already heavily mixed before they arrived in modern Hungary

[Raikaswinþs]

Even if this were true (the percentage is far higher), 3-7% is the equivalent contribution of a geat great great grandparent and is enough to produce this "look":

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Sea_sami_man.jpg

but isn't that guy a sami?

[Berahthraban]

Even if this were true (the percentage is far higher), 3-7% is the equivalent contribution of a geat great great grandparent and is enough to produce this "look":

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Sea_sami_man.jpg

That is not a Finn, he is Sami (10 - 17%, sometimes even more) East Asian. And no, 3 - 7% is correct, might be one or two percent more in the very eastern region.

[Grab the Gauge]

That is not a Finn, he is Sami (10 - 17%, sometimes even more) East Asian. And no, 3 - 7% is correct, might be one or two percent more in the very eastern region.

Lol, just keep pulling stuff out of your ass man one day you might find a kernel of truth or common sense.

[Berahthraban]

Lol, just keep pulling stuff out of your ass man one day you might find a kernel of truth or common sense.

I know it's hard to discuss facts when you don't have a clue what you're talking about, keep trying.

[Grab the Gauge]

but isn't that guy a sami?

Yes he is a Saami, the indigenous people of Finland, the original Uralics in Scandinavia, the people OP was referring to and the ancestors of the people calling themselves "Finns".

[Grab the Gauge]

I know it's hard to discuss facts when you don't have a clue what you're talking about, keep trying.

I see a Swedish flag in your avatar. Finnish people and half breeds are notorious for self-identifying as Swedes. You wouldn't by any chance be one such individual, surely not?

[Berahthraban]

Yes he is aSaami, the indigenous people of Finland, the original Uralics in Scandinavia, the people OP was referring to and the ancestors of the people calling themselves "Finns".

The indigenous people of Finland are from what I know WHG, which Sami is a bit less of. They are still partly native as all Fennoscandians though. Finn stands for Finnish, not Sami.

[Berahthraban]

I see a Swedish flag in your avatar. Finnish people and half breeds are notorious for self-identifying as Swedes. You wouldn't by any chance be one such individual, surely not?

Hilarious :D Keep trying maybe one time someone will believe you

[Grab the Gauge]

The indigenous people of Finland are from what I know WHG, which Sami is a bit less of. They are still partly native as all Fennoscandians though. Finn stands for Finnish, not Sami.

Nonsense; there were not unmixed descendents of Mesolithic hunter gatherers living in Finland at the time of their earliest known contact with the agricultural world. They were at that time exactly what they had been for thousands of years; Mongoloid Uralics with WHG input.

[GiCa]

this climate DfB

requires blue eyes, light hair, light skin

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Koppen_World_Map_Dfa_Dwa_Dsa_Dfb_Dwb_Dsb.png

[Berahthraban]

Nonsense; there were not unmixed descendents of Mesolithic hunter gatherers living in Finland at the time of their earliest known contact with the agricultural world. They were at that time exactly what they had been for thousands of years; Mongoloid Uralics with WHG input.

What has that to do with anything? I am talking about the first, the indigenous people in Finland, not who they were when they interacted with the agricultural world.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

What has that to do with anything? I am talking about the first, the indigenous people in Finland, not who they were when they interacted with the agricultural world.

You should answer the one question though, if you are part Finnish :D

[Oneeye]

this climate DfB

requires blue eyes, light hair, light skin

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Koppen_World_Map_Dfa_Dwa_Dsa_Dfb_Dwb_Dsb.png

Lolwut

[Berahthraban]

You should answer the one question though, if you are part Finnish :D

1/512 If I counted it right :D We will see what my 23andme test and raw data has to say ;)

[Arhat]

Nonsense; there were not unmixed descendents of Mesolithic hunter gatherers living in Finland at the time of their earliest known contact with the agricultural world. They were at that time exactly what they had been for thousands of years; Mongoloid Uralics with WHG input.

Finns have more WHG than most North Europeans except of Balts even significantly more than Germanic Scandinavians so from this point of view they are more European than any other Europeans. They are lower in Near Eastern ancestry than almost all other Europeans also. So even if they had 10% East Eurasian admixture they would be still more Mesolithic European than almost all other Europeans.

[Grab the Gauge]

What has that to do with anything? I am talking about the first, the indigenous people in Finland, not who they were when they interacted with the agricultural world.

Oh yeah sure you were buddy, cos that's totally relevant.

But I assure you WHG was not the first, or even second indigenous people in Finland.

http://sydaby.eget.net/eng/wolf/wolf_ralf.htm

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

As I said Finns became white because they mixed a lot with the native tribes there which were descended from hunter-gatherers. The squinty eyes in Finns today could be either from their Mongoloid ancestors OR from their native Hunter-Gatherer ancestors, as they were slant-eyed also.

Finns have a high amount of East Asian genetics (for European anyway). Their western neighbors the Swedes are more pure Hunter-Gatherer but they also have ANE influences, which is different from East Asian but very different from Hunter-Gatherer, another race basically, that came in later. Nordics and Slavs have most ANE blood today.

I think Swedes are the ubermensch. They are almost pure Hunter-Gatherers + ANE mix. No shitty rat-face ENF admixture (the Norwegians have more of that) and no down syndrome Mongoloid blood either (which the Finns have). The ANE were Mongoloids, but they were robust. Unlike East Asian Mongoloids that are mixed with Denisovans or whatever (the down syndrome look must come from here). And this is the blood of the Finns...but everyone should be proud of who they are, I am just expressing my own personal opinion.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

isolationism probably. people who separated probably had more of those traits. Or also by chance or sexual selection to have those traits as well. Its also possible they took in outsiders ( other europeans)

[Grab the Gauge]

Finns have more WHG than most North Europeans except of Balts even significantly more than Germanic Scandinavians

Here's another lie from our resident "Corded" Crack Head "Arhat".

[GiCa]

yes...blue eyes, light hair required in:

*almost all abitable Canada
*New England Usa
*Minnesota, Wisconsin..
*Northern Kazakhstan
*Hokkaido
*a portion of Russia near to Koreas and Japan
*denmark, eastern germany, sweden, and all North and east europe till european russia


also this climate requires blue eyes, light hair, and also.. red hair..: Cfb Oceanic
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Koppen_World_Map_Cfb_Cfc_Cwb_Cwc.png

[Berahthraban]

Oh yeah sure you were buddy, cos that's totally relevant.

But I assure you WHG was not the first, or even second indigenous people in Finland.

http://sydaby.eget.net/eng/wolf/wolf_ralf.htm

Assuring me isn't enough, tell me more precisely what I should read.

[Grab the Gauge]

Assuring me isn't enough, tell me more precisely what I should read.

You could start with the link I posted. People have been in Finland for over 200,000 years.

[Berahthraban]

You could start with the link I posted. People have been in Finland for over 200,000 years.

I won't read the whole thing right now, if you want to make a point, tell me where it is.

[Grab the Gauge]

My point is that you have ADD.

[Berahthraban]

My point is that you have ADD.

Maybe I do? Better than starting to cry everytime someone disagrees :D

[Grab the Gauge]

Maybe I do? Better than starting to cry everytime someone disagrees :D

You only disagreed becaused you cried.

[Berahthraban]

You only disagreed becaused you cried.

Don't be sad, things will get better :D

[Grab the Gauge]

Don't be sad, things will get better :D

Oh my God, I just looked at your classification thread. Third picture down, you look exactly like this:

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/142341645-shintaro-ishihara-governor-of-tokyo-talks-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=Z0zsWpN2ukUDXYqF4boPJVHjf2rh9L0jMaJNSiqtwSDRqgr1 Ho0NVfMuRa3RE3oiZIwLokU2dVAQJ1Ylga6XJw%3D%3D

[Berahthraban]

Oh my God, I just looked at your classification thread. Third picture down, you look exactly like this:

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/142341645-shintaro-ishihara-governor-of-tokyo-talks-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=Z0zsWpN2ukUDXYqF4boPJVHjf2rh9L0jMaJNSiqtwSDRqgr1 Ho0NVfMuRa3RE3oiZIwLokU2dVAQJ1Ylga6XJw%3D%3D

Picture isn't working, but I can imagine it being something really really funny :D

[Grab the Gauge]

Oh man its freaking amazing. I'm calling this dude up and asking him to take a DNA test right now.

[Berahthraban]

Oh man its freaking amazing. I'm calling this dude up and asking him to take a DNA test right now.

Awesome ;)

[Neon Knight]

From the journal Nature:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

[abcd123]

Oh man its freaking amazing. I'm calling this dude up and asking him to take a DNA test right now.

Diabeetus.

[Neon Knight]

They became white when they stopped eating so much fish and started playing heavy metal :p

[Demon Revival]

yes...blue eyes, light hair required in:

*almost all abitable Canada
*New England Usa
*Minnesota, Wisconsin..
*Northern Kazakhstan
*Hokkaido
*a portion of Russia near to Koreas and Japan
*denmark, eastern germany, sweden, and all North and east europe till european russia


also this climate requires blue eyes, light hair, and also.. red hair..: Cfb Oceanic
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Koppen_World_Map_Cfb_Cfc_Cwb_Cwc.png

B**ch, we're doing science here. No one cares about your pseudo-scientific skin color wet dreams where if you stay 100 years under the cloud you'll become gray eyed and whiter than a ghost. You must be seriously retarded, if you genuinely think Finns were a bunch of Asians who ended up looking like Swedes just because they were in a similar UV radiation to them, or in your retarded way of wording it "because blue eyes are a need there".

Yeah, sure "blue eyes required" and fucken rampant in the whole Korea, Japan, Hokkaido, Kazakhstan and in Natives from USA and Canada. :rolleyes: In what parallel world do you live?

And before you go on saying about how I am too rude, I am just trying to save you of the humiliation that posting your mentally deranged, binary, 2 + 2 = 5 armchair theories will bring to yourself. You're literally posting this stupid shit in all possible threads despite the fact you were completely disproved in the first ones you made and ended up looking like a moron.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

B**ch, we're doing science here. No one cares about your pseudo-scientific skin color wet dreams where if you stay 100 years under the cloud you'll become gray eyed and whiter than a ghost. You must be seriously retarded, if you genuinely think Finns were a bunch of Asians who ended up looking like Swedes just because they were in a similar UV radiation to them.

She's a science here.

[XvThomas_LysergicV]

Mixing. No it has nothing to do with mixing. They all woke one day white. There must have been something in the drank haha.

[Äijä]

This has always confused me. The Finns are a Uralic group just like the Sami and Nenets, yet the Finns don't look Asiatic. Finns have one of the highest concentrations of blue eyes and blonde hair in Europe. How did dark skinned Asiatic folks turn into what they are today? I guess the same question could be applied to the Hungarians as well.

They where always white?

[Äijä]

Yes he is a Saami, the indigenous people of Finland, the original Uralics in Scandinavia, the people OP was referring to and the ancestors of the people calling themselves "Finns".

http://glubble-bubble.weebly.com/uploads/5/4/6/4/54640841/2251988_orig.jpg

[Äijä]

If Finnic and Uralic groups all carry different portions of different Siberian-Asian admix, then what is the original Uralic component?

If there is one it is the South Siberian one that fits the genetic and linguistic trail, that is a region that had majority Europid people at one time.


http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2036746823/2051577506/gr4.jpg

http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2036746823/2051577515/mmc3.pdf

[Äijä]

You could start with the link I posted. People have been in Finland for over 200,000 years.

They dug a hole during the ice age?

[Also]

We should challenge the premise in the title here.

Finns didn't become white at any point, they are still eurasian folks.

[Rugevit]

Blue eyes and light skin have been in the area for at least 17,000 years (Swedish Mesolithic hunter gatherers). No one believes Saami were ever purely Mongoloid, there was always WHG nearby.

17,000 years ago Finland and Scandinavia were under ice. Blue eye mutation occurred between 6,000-10,000 year ago in northern Black Sea region. https://occupycorporatism.com/blue-eyes-originated-10000-years-ago-in-the-black-sea-region/

[Äijä]

IMO North Siberian was aquired by Finns from Sami-Samoyed who got it first when entering the Arctic regions, Baltic Finns entered Finland after Sami and Germanic peoples.

Sami-Samoyed where Uralic speaking traders that entered the northern regions first, we know Sami arrival in to Fennoscandia resulted an language shift by the local peoples.

I suspect the same is the case with the Siberian Arctic, the locals had a language shift to the language of the trade, Ket is an example what could have been spoken before.

[Rugevit]

Uralic speakers migrated to Finland assimilating the locals. Those Uralic people may have absorbed genes of Europeans on their way to Finland if it was through Estonia. Siberian admixture between 0-10% does not reflect in physical appearance of most people , especially if these people have a high percentage of WHG ancestry. Mongoloid physical appearance becomes visible when Siberian admixture is higher than 10%. Komi , Udmurts, Mari are good examples.

[Äijä]

Example from modern times.


A coureur des bois was an adventurer with many skills, including those of businessman, and of an expert canoeist.[5] They engaged in a range of activities including fishing, snowshoeing and hunting.[6] All these activities depended on skills learned through close contact with the indigenous peoples of North America. Native peoples were essential to the fur trade because they actually trapped the fur-bearing animals (especially beaver) and prepared the skins. Often transactions took the form of reciprocal gift-giving. Pierre-Esprit Radisson and his companions, for instance, "struck agreeable relations with Natives inland by giving European goods as gifts".[7] Relations between the coureur de bois and the Natives often included a sexual dimension; Marriage 'à la façon du pays' (following local custom) was common.[8] As wives indigenous women played a key role as translators, guides and mediators- becoming "women between"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coureur_des_bois

[Äijä]

Uralic speakers migrated to Finland assimilating the locals. Siberian admixture between 0-10% does not reflect in physical appearance of most people , especially if these people have a high percentage of WHG ancestry. Mongoloid physical appearance becomes visible when Siberian admixture is higher than 10%. Komi , Udmurts, Mari are good examples.

Yes but the point is they all have different Asian admix, North Siberian, South Siberian, Mongol and in different proportions.

[Rugevit]

Yes but the point is they all have different Asian admix, North Siberian, South Siberian, Mongol and in different proportions.


That's right. Which Siberian admixture Finns have needs to be determined. Finns also may have different ANE than other European as per Lazaridis et al.

[Äijä]

That's right. Which Siberian admixture Finns have needs to be determined. Finns also may have different ANE than other European as per Lazaridis et al.

Finns have North Siberian and South Siberian, North was aquired from the Sami and the South they carried with them, Balts also have South Siberian to a degree.

[Rugevit]

Finns have North Siberian and South Siberian, North was aquired from the Sami and the South they carried with them, Balts also have South Siberian to a degree.

In which population south Siberian admixture peaks? Do you have a table of those admixtures for different populations?

[Äijä]

In which population south Siberian admixture peaks? Do you have a table of those admixtures for different populations?

No I dont, I am trying to find info about the Lithuanian admix.

I read on the Finnish forum that they have also both North and South Siberian but the percentages are low so the info is very blurred still.

[Neon Knight]

B**ch, we're doing science here. No one cares about your pseudo-scientific skin color wet dreams where if you stay 100 years under the cloud you'll become gray eyed and whiter than a ghost. You must be seriously retarded, if you genuinely think Finns were a bunch of Asians who ended up looking like Swedes just because they were in a similar UV radiation to them, or in your retarded way of wording it "because blue eyes are a need there".

Yeah, sure "blue eyes required" and fucken rampant in the whole Korea, Japan, Hokkaido, Kazakhstan and in Natives from USA and Canada. :rolleyes: In what parallel world do you live?

And before you go on saying about how I am too rude, I am just trying to save you of the humiliation that posting your mentally deranged, binary, 2 + 2 = 5 armchair theories will bring to yourself. You're literally posting this stupid shit in all possible threads despite the fact you were completely disproved in the first ones you made and ended up looking like a moron.

There's no need to insult her. You ought to apologise.

[Demon Revival]

There's no need to insult her. You ought to apologise.

The first world should be taken as an interjection and not a sexist slur, as so far 95% of the times I've used it was against a male. It could have used "goddammit" but I reserve that word for inbetween paragraphs.

[Insuperable]

The first world should be taken as an interjection and not a sexist slur, as so far 95% of the times I've used it was against a male. It could have used "goddammit" but I reserve that word for inbetween paragraphs.

Regardless of your ideology she is a very nice member who never insulted anyone on any level. Hate to be the one who is giving lessons about insults.xD

[Nurzat]

This has always confused me. The Finns are a Uralic group just like the Sami and Nenets, yet the Finns don't look Asiatic. Finns have one of the highest concentrations of blue eyes and blonde hair in Europe. How did dark skinned Asiatic folks turn into what they are today? I guess the same question could be applied to the Hungarians as well.

Finns mixed with Romanians in order to become White. Romanians from Moldavia region are direct descendants of the so-called proto-Indo-Europeans, or Aryans. we can consider Moldova as the only national entity that carries on the Aryan legacy

[Anglojew]

Mongoloids evolved FROM Uralics not the other way around.

[Grab the Gauge]

Mongoloids evolved FROM Uralics not the other way around.

East Asian remains with genetic affinities to Mongoloids have been dated to roughly 40,000 YBP (Tianyuan) and 36,000 YBP (Oase 1). Additionaly skulls and sentition which have Mongoloid morphology but no DNA have been found in Magdalenian-era Europe (Chancelade) and Strashnaya in Russia. So yes Uralkcs evolved out of Mongoloids unless you have efidence Uralic was being spoken 40,000 years ago.

[Grab the Gauge]

17,000 years ago Finland and Scandinavia were under ice. Blue eye mutation occurred between 6,000-10,000 year ago in northern Black Sea region. https://occupycorporatism.com/blue-eyes-originated-10000-years-ago-in-the-black-sea-region/

You are wrong on both counts and your source "occupycorporatism" (lol) is also wrong. Mesolithic remains from Sweden dated to 17,000 years ago had blue eyes. Luxembourg Mesolithic remains older than 10,000 YBP also had blue eyes. La Brana 1, descended from a population native to Spain that had been there for over 10,000 years, also had blue eyes.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/europeans-neolithic-farmers-mesolithic.html

[Grab the Gauge]

IMO North Siberian was aquired by Finns from Sami-Samoyed who got it first when entering the Arctic regions, Baltic Finns entered Finland after Sami and Germanic peoples.

Sami-Samoyed where Uralic speaking traders that entered the northern regions first, we know Sami arrival in to Fennoscandia resulted an language shift by the local peoples.

I suspect the same is the case with the Siberian Arctic, the locals had a language shift to the language of the trade, Ket is an example what could have been spoken before.

The presence of Mongoloid skulls in Romania as well as France and Strashnaya, as well as tell-tale signs of Mongoloid ancestry in Swedish Mesolithic hunters (EDAR 370A) confirm that the paleolithic population of Europe was partly Mongoloid (including WHG). Thus there was no contact, no crossing of cultures. The Mongoloids had always been there long beforenthe existence of a Germanic or Uralic language, and like WHG they merely reach their maximum survival in subarctic and arctic Europe, even though they had previously been in what is now France and Romania.

[Rugevit]

You are wrong on both counts and your source "occupycorporatism" (lol) is also wrong. Mesolithic remains from Sweden dated to 17,000 years ago had blue eyes. Luxembourg Mesolithic remains older than 10,000 YBP also had blue eyes. La Brana 1, descended from a population native to Spain that had been there for over 10,000 years, also had blue eyes.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/europeans-neolithic-farmers-mesolithic.html


Mesolithic remains in Sweden are dated to 8,000 years of age. 17,000 years ago Finland and Scandinavia was under ice. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?107551-Y-DNA-I-found-in-Mesolithic-Sweden(-I1)-and-Luxemburg-alot-of-other-good-stuff&p=2228551&viewfull=1#post2228551


There is no way of knowing what eye colour people of Mesolith had. Researchers in that paper were suggesting that those people may had blue eyes as opposed to they had. This does not contradict the statement of Danish researchers who suggested that blue mutation is between 6,000 - 10,000 years of age.


A team of researchers from Copenhagen University have located a single mutation that causes the mysterious phenomenon of blue eyes. And all blue eyed people are genetically related to a person who lived in the Black Sea region sometime between 6 – 10,000 years ago. The research was published in the Journal of Human Genetics. A mutation in a gene called OCA2 came into being nearly 8,000 years ago. It can be definitively traced back to an ancestor from the Black Sea.

[Antimage]

This has always confused me. The Finns are a Uralic group just like the Sami and Nenets, yet the Finns don't look Asiatic. Finns have one of the highest concentrations of blue eyes and blonde hair in Europe. How did dark skinned Asiatic folks turn into what they are today? I guess the same question could be applied to the Hungarians as well.

Because.... race =/= language

Jamaicans speak english, but they are not english or anything european racially..

[Nurzat]

Because.... race =/= language

Jamaicans speak english, but they are not english or anything european racially..

Finns mixed with Romanians in order to become White. Romanians from Moldavia region are direct descendants of the so-called proto-Indo-Europeans, or Aryans. we can consider Moldova as the only national entity that carries on the Aryan legacy

[Antimage]

they don't?
...g]

There is nothing mongolic about Kimi Raikonen, he is uber european looking

[Grab the Gauge]

Mesolithic remains in Sweden is dated to 8,000 years of age. 17,000 years ago Finland and Scandinavia was under ice. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?107551-Y-DNA-I-found-in-Mesolithic-Sweden(-I1)-and-Luxemburg-alot-of-other-good-stuff&p=2228551&viewfull=1#post2228551


There is no way of known what eye colour people of Mesolith had. Researchers in that paper were suggesting that those people may had blue eyes as opposed to they had. The paper to which I linked you is referencing a team of researchers from Copenhagen University


A team of researchers from Copenhagen University have located a single mutation that causes the mysterious phenomenon of blue eyes. And all blue eyed people are genetically related to a person who lived in the Black Sea region sometime between 6 – 10,000 years ago.

The Swedish mesolithic remains have a radiocarbo ndating of 20,000-8,000 years, and for yuourninformation Sweden was not covered with ice 17,000 years ago and Arctic ice has never prevented people including Neanderthals (http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/april-2011/article/the-last-neanderthals) from living. Interesting you keep pushing this recent Black Sea origins for blue eyes garbage.

[Harkonnen]

Mesolithic remains in Sweden are dated to 8,000 years of age. 17,000 years ago Finland and Scandinavia was under ice. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?107551-Y-DNA-I-found-in-Mesolithic-Sweden(-I1)-and-Luxemburg-alot-of-other-good-stuff&p=2228551&viewfull=1#post2228551


There is no way of knowing what eye colour people of Mesolith had. Researchers in that paper were suggesting that those people may had blue eyes as opposed to they had. This does not contradict the statement of Danish researchers who suggested that blue mutation is between 6,000 - 10,000 years of age.


A team of researchers from Copenhagen University have located a single mutation that causes the mysterious phenomenon of blue eyes. And all blue eyed people are genetically related to a person who lived in the Black Sea region sometime between 6 – 10,000 years ago. The research was published in the Journal of Human Genetics. A mutation in a gene called OCA2 came into being nearly 8,000 years ago. It can be definitively traced back to an ancestor from the Black Sea.

This "Blue eye origin in Black Sea" that has circulated the web for years is really more of a myth than reality. To this day I don't know what made the Danes say this; I guess you could call it a educated guess. However we do not know where the mutation happened first, all we know is that all blue eyes descent from the same dude or gal. Black Sea region is of course a possibility among possibilities. But there are really no 6k-7k year old remains from Black Sea to verify this hypothesis. OTOH fex La Brana had blue eyes, and so did the mesolithic Scandinavians, are either of these representing the original mutation: I don't know.

[Petroskoijari]

This has always confused me. The Finns are a Uralic group just like the Sami and Nenets, yet the Finns don't look Asiatic. Finns have one of the highest concentrations of blue eyes and blonde hair in Europe. How did dark skinned Asiatic folks turn into what they are today? I guess the same question could be applied to the Hungarians as well.
:picard2:. You do realize that people migrated to Finland from multiple different regions after the last glacial period, right?

[Grab the Gauge]

:picard2:. You do realize that people migrated to Finland from multiple different regions after the last glacial period, right?

No dude, they did not. Sweden was never uninhabited during LGM and Younger Dryas, that is an outdated model from the 80s that's been completely turned over in recent years.

[Rugevit]

The Swedish mesolithic remains have a radiocarbo ndating of 20,000-8,000 years, and for yuourninformation Sweden was not covered with ice 17,000 years ago and Arctic ice has never prevented people including Neanderthals (http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/april-2011/article/the-last-neanderthals) from living. Interesting you keep pushing this recent Balticnorigins for blueneyes garbage -- I don't suppose it has anything to do with the Baltic flag on your profile.
Learn the basics.

The Late Glacial Maximum (circa 13,000-10,000 years ago)
The Last Glacial Maximum (circa 25,000-13,000 years ago)

Mesolithic period in Europe began around 11,500 years before present and continued until farming was introduced during Neolithic age. Mesolithic remains in Swedens are 8,000 years old +/- smaller margin , and not until 20,000 years.

I don't push anything here.


Earlier than 12,000 years ago Finland and Scandinavia , as well as parts of northernorthern regions of Europe were under ice during Last and late glacial maximum.



https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcThF7xc3rx8fw1xB15cO2qHg1kvBC1us KGXf2keP-HegiPW6Vjl

[rhiannon]

this climate DfB

requires blue eyes, light hair, light skin

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Koppen_World_Map_Dfa_Dwa_Dsa_Dfb_Dwb_Dsb.png

That map makes no sense.

[Grab the Gauge]

Earlier than 12,000 years ago Finland and Scandinavia , as well as parts of northern Poland, the Baltic states, and other northern regions of Europe were under ice during Late Glacium ma

For the love of God, stop posting this utter garbage and listen to what I am trying to tell you. Sweden and the Urals WERE inhabited prior to 15,000 years ago!

[Rugevit]

For the love of God, stop posting this utter garbage and listen to what I am trying to tell you. Sweden and the Urals WERE inhabited prior to 15,000 years ago!

Who was writing anything about Ural? ? And you have to stop posting the garbage and learn the basics or bugger off. Sweden and Finland were under ice 17,000 years ago. Mesolithic remains of Sweden are dated to 8,000 years of age.

[Grab the Gauge]

That map makes no sense.


You have to stop posting the garbage and learn the basics or bugger off. Sweden and Finland were under ice 17,000 years ago. Mesolithic remains of Sweden are dated to 8,000 years of age.

And what I am telling you is that they were NOT under ice 17,000 years ago, Neanderthals DID live in the Ural Mountains when they were "covered in ice" and the Swedish Mesolithic remains are dated to 20,000-8'000 YBP!

[Harkonnen]

East Asian remains with genetic affinities to Mongoloids have been dated to roughly 40,000 YBP (Tianyuan) and 36,000 YBP (Oase 1). Additionaly skulls and sentition which have Mongoloid morphology but no DNA have been found in Magdalenian-era Europe (Chancelade) and Strashnaya in Russia. So yes Uralkcs evolved out of Mongoloids unless you have efidence Uralic was being spoken 40,000 years ago.

Tianyuan, Oase from Romania, and Ust-Ishim are all genetically equidistant between modern East Eurasians (especially modern North East Asians) and WHG/ANE. With this fact in mind there is indeed some idea to call them Mongoloid in some sense at least, despite the fact that modern mongoloids are really more of a end product than the real thing. However as WHG and ANE concepts also descent from that same genetic mass, then in order to stay coherent, they too would have to be genetic mongoloids.

[Rugevit]

And what I am telling you is that they were NOT under ice 17,000 years ago, Neanderthals DID live in the Ural Mountains when they were "covered in ice" and the Swedish Mesolithic remains are dated to 20,000-8'000 YBP!

I pointed you to the sources showing the ages of late and last glacial maxima and the geographic regions of Europe they covered. Ural mountains extend all the way to north-western Kazakhstan. Southern regions were not under the ice. The remains from Sweden are labelled as Mesolithic, which should give you a hint about the period of time at which those people live. Mesolithic age in Europe is later han 11,500 years ago. Open few articles and maps to see where Scandinavia and where Ural mountains are located . And the regions of Europe covered by ice sheets 17,000 years ago. Most Ural mountains were not covered by ice. Scandinavia and Finland were.

[Grab the Gauge]

Tianyuan, Oase from Romania, and Ust-Ishim are all genetically equidistant between modern East Eurasians (especially modern North East Asians) and WHG/ANE. With this fact in mind there is indeed some idea to call them Mongoloid in some sense at least, despite the fact that modern mongoloids are really more of a end product than the real thing. However as WHG and ANE concepts also descent from the genetic mass, then in order to stay coherent, they too would have to be genetic mongoloids.

Well, they have similarities with East Asians. One of the things tnat sets East Asians and Upper Paleolithic Europeans apart from the rest of humanify is their high sexual dimorphism, a trait they share with Neanderthals. Another is high cranial capacity -- both East Asians and WHG have a large cranial capacity. And then there's EDAR 370A - a characteristic East Asian mutation found in Swedish Mesolithic hunters. These facts suggest a genetic link between WHG and Mongoloids.

[Insuperable]

Well, they have similarities with East Asians. One of the things tnat sets East Asians and Upper Paleolithic Europeans apart from the rest of humanify is their high sexual dimorphism, a trait they share with Neanderthals. Another is high cranial capacity -- both East Asians and WHG have a large cranial capacity. And then there's EDAR 370A - a characteristic East Asian mutation found in Swedish Mesolithic hunters. These facts suggest a genetic link between WHG and Mongoloids.

WHGs (Western European hunter gatherers like La Brana) are one thing and Mesolithic HG from Scandinavia are another thing. La Brana and other HGs were EDAR370A negative. Not all Mesolithics from Scandianvia were EDAR positive.

[Grab the Gauge]

I pointed you to the sources showing the ages of late and last glacial maxima .

No, you referenced me to an Apricitybpost made by a child like you whomused the cutoff dating and then spammed it with estrogenic fury after you got embarassed. The Ural Mountains were indeed iced over during LGM and there were people living there. There were also people living in Sweden and Finland during LGM and Younger Dryas and glacial maximums going back all the way to 200,000 years ago.

[Insuperable]

Well, they have similarities with East Asians. One of the things tnat sets East Asians and Upper Paleolithic Europeans apart from the rest of humanify is their high sexual dimorphism, a trait they share with Neanderthals. Another is high cranial capacity -- both East Asians and WHG have a large cranial capacity. And then there's EDAR 370A - a characteristic East Asian mutation found in Swedish Mesolithic hunters. These facts suggest a genetic link between WHG and Mongoloids.

WHGs (Western European hunter gatherers like La Brana) are one thing and Mesolithic HG from Scandinavia are another thing. La Brana and other HGs were EDAR370A negative. Not all Mesolithics from Scandianvia were EDAR positive. WHGs contributed to modern Europeans while Scandinavian mesolithics and OASE didn't.

[Grab the Gauge]

WHGs (Western European hunter gatherers like La Brana) are one thing and Mesolithic HG from Scandinavia are another thing. La Brana and other HGs were EDAR370A negative. Not all Mesolithics from Scandianvia were EDAR positive.

You are scientifically illiterate and you do not know any of the claims you just made here for a fact.

[Rugevit]

No, you referenced me to an Apricitybpost made by a child like you whomused the cutoff dating and then spammed it with estrogenic fury after you got embarassed. The Ural Mountains were indeed iced over during LGM and there were people living there. There were also people living in Sweden and Finland during LGM and Younger Dryas and glacial maximums going back all the way to 200,000 years ago.

The apricity post referenced the published article by Lazaradis et al. Below are quote from the original source on carbon dating. There is no evidence people were living in Scandinavia 17,000 years ago. Scandinavia were under ice. Most of Ural were not under ice 17,000 years ago. If anyone I embarrassed is you here.


Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present day Europeans

The Motala individuals were recovered from the site of Kanaljorden in the town of Motala, Östergötland, Sweden, excavated between 2009 and 2013. The human remains at this site are represented by several adult skulls and one infant skeleton. All individuals are part of a ritual deposition at the bottom of a small lake. Direct radiocarbon dates on the remains range between 7,013 ± 76 and 6,701 ± 64 BP (6,361-5,516 cal BC), corresponding to the late Middle Mesolithic of Scandinavia.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.6639.pdf


Mesolithic skull deposition at Motal SwedenMesolithic skull deposition at Motal Sweden

Radiocarbon analyses of human bones and wooden artefacts date the depositions to 6029-5640 BC. Radiocarbon analyses of human bones and wooden artefacts date the depositions to 6029-5640 BC.

http://www.academia.edu/3122672/Mesolithic_skull_depositions_at_Kanaljorden_Motala _Sweden


---

[Grab the Gauge]

The apricity post referenced the published article by Lazaradis et al. Below are quote from the original source on carbon dating. There is no evidence people were living in Scandinavia 17,000 years ago. Scandinavia were under ice. Most of Ural were not under ice 17,000 years ago. If anyone I embarrassed is you here.


Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present day Europeans

The Motala individuals were recovered from the site of Kanaljorden in the town of Motala, Östergötland, Sweden, excavated between 2009 and 2013. The human remains at this site are represented by several adult skulls and one infant skeleton. All individuals are part of a ritual deposition at the bottom of a small lake. Direct radiocarbon dates on the remains range between 7,013 ± 76 and 6,701 ± 64 BP (6,361-5,516 cal BC), corresponding to the late Middle Mesolithic of Scandinavia.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.6639.pdf


Mesolithic skull deposition at Motal SwedenMesolithic skull deposition at Motal Sweden

Radiocarbon analyses of human bones and wooden artefacts date the depositions to 6029-5640 BC. Radiocarbon analyses of human bones and wooden artefacts date the depositions to 6029-5640 BC.

http://www.academia.edu/3122672/Mesolithic_skull_depositions_at_Kanaljorden_Motala _Sweden


---

The Motala remains were not the only ones pooled in the original link I posted. Furthermore, the dates given in your source are for human remains and wooden artifacts, which were intrusive. The dates for Swedish hunter gatherers are 20,000-8,000 YBP, and as your own source states, 7,000 YBP corresponds to "the late Middle Mesolithic of Scandinavia.", i.e. not at it's earliest inception, i.e. there were people living there 17,000 years ago.

[Rugevit]

The Motala remains were not the only ones pooledin the original link I posted. Furthermore, the dates given in your source are for human remains and wooden artifacts which were intrusive. The dates for Swedish hunter gatherers are 20,000-8,000 YBP, and as your own source states, 7,000 YBP corresponds to "the late Middle Mesolithic of Scandinavia.", i.e. not at it's earliest inception, i.e. there were peoplemlivinf there 17,000 years ago.

You did not give any links. Quote relevant text and provide a reference to the source showing an individual 17,000 years old in Scandinavia. More likely, these are same remains preliminary tested using less advance technology that showed such a large age interval.

[Harkonnen]

WHGs (Western European hunter gatherers like La Brana) are one thing and Mesolithic HG from Scandinavia are another thing. La Brana and other HGs were EDAR370A negative. Not all Mesolithics from Scandianvia were EDAR positive. WHGs contributed to modern Europeans while Scandinavian mesolithics and OASE didn't.

Not all East Asians are EDAR positive either :) It is at least somewhat nonsensical to build correlations between autosomal components and individual genetic mutations such as EDAR. Highest percentages of EDAR are actually found among Native Americans and some Siberians. If I remember correctly South East Asians don't have really that much. You can see, that based on this, it is even possible that the actual original EDAR mutation could have happened in a ANE population, but was later introduced into ENA populations, and henceforth positively selected in these populations. Remember that mesolithic Scandinavians had ANE. Btw I'm not really that serious about this theory, but I do see it as a genuine possibility. Remember that for example Komi people completely lack the EDAR mutation (also remember that populations such as Poles and Greeks have some EDAR) despite having reasonably high East Eurasian admix. This ofc because of negative selection.

Still I do think that you are quite right that at least most modern Europeans do not have much actual ancestry from mesolithic Scandinavians. Only lack of EDAR does not prove it.

[Grab the Gauge]

You did not give any links. Quote relevant text and provide a reference to the source showing an individual 17,000 years old in Scandinavia. More likely, these are same remains preliminary tested using less advance technology that showed such a large age interval.

I gave PLENTY of links and you ignored every one of them! Amazing how the smarmiest of people manage to become moderators here.

[Rugevit]

I gave PLENTY of links and you ignored every one of them! Amazing how the smarmiest of people manage to become moderators here.

I did not ignore them. You gave only a link Dienekes blog, which discusses Lazaridis et al paper http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/europeans-neolithic-farmers-mesolithic.html

There is nothing about Mesolithic remains being 17,000 years old in Dienekes blog or Lazaridis et al paper.


Amazing how the smarmiest of people manage to become moderators here.

You will be amazed soon when I start to moderate you for spamming and insulting moderators.

[Grab the Gauge]

I will be amazed when you stop spamming this thread with lies and irrelevant non-truths.

[Longbowman]

I think Swedes are the ubermensch. They are almost pure Hunter-Gatherers + ANE mix. No shitty rat-face ENF admixture (the Norwegians have more of that) and no down syndrome Mongoloid blood either (which the Finns have). The ANE were Mongoloids, but they were robust. Unlike East Asian Mongoloids that are mixed with Denisovans or whatever (the down syndrome look must come from here). And this is the blood of the Finns...but everyone should be proud of who they are, I am just expressing my own personal opinion.

Shitty rat-faced ENF admixture is like 45% of your blood. East Asians aren't mixed with Denisovans to any significant degree, you're thinking of Polynesians and Melanesians.

[Rugevit]

I will be amazed when you stop spamming this thread with lies and irrelevant non-truths.

I am still awaiting for you to quote relevant text referencing the source that states that Mesolithic remains of Sweden are 17,000 years of age of older.

[Grab the Gauge]

Shitty rat-faced ENF admixture is like 45% of your blood. East Asians aren't mixed with Denisovans to any significant degree, you're thinking of Polynesians and Melanesians.

East Asians are 0.5% Denisova... Papuans around 5%. Of course this is all only based on what is currently known primarily from one toe bone from one individual who lived tens of thousands of years ago. As the amount of archaic human DNA profiles increases, the percentage of archaic human DNA in living people can increase, as well. We can only say at this point that East Asians are significantly Denisova-admixed. Tibetans, for example are only able live in the highest ranges of the mountains because of Denisova DNA. (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v512/n7513/full/nature13408.html) Now tell a Tibetan that his Denisova DNA is not significant.

[Longbowman]

The Swedish mesolithic remains have a radiocarbo ndating of 20,000-8,000 years, and for yuourninformation Sweden was not covered with ice 17,000 years ago and Arctic ice has never prevented people including Neanderthals (http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/april-2011/article/the-last-neanderthals) from living. Interesting you keep pushing this recent Black Sea origins for blue eyes garbage.

You do this a lot: including a source that doesn't actually support your lies.

[Grab the Gauge]

East Asians are 0.5% Denisova... Papuans around 5%. Of course this is all only based on what is currently known primarily from one toe bone from one individual who lived tens of thousands of years ago. As the amount of archaic human DNA profiles increases, the percentage of archaic human DNA in living people can increase, as well. We can only say at this point that East Asians are significantly Denisova-admixed. Tibetans, for example are only able live in the highest ranges of the mountains because of Denisova DNA. (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v512/n7513/full/nature13408.html) Now tell a Tibetan that his Denisova DNA is not significant.

Any comments on this relevant quote?

[Longbowman]

East Asians are 0.5% Denisova... Papuans around 5%. Of course this is all only based on what is currently known primarily from one toe bone from one individual who lived tens of thousands of years ago. As the amount of archaic human DNA profiles increases, the percentage of archaic human DNA in living people can increase, as well. We can only say at this point that East Asians are significantly Denisova-admixed. Tibetans, for example are only able live in the highest ranges of the mountains because of Denisova DNA. (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v512/n7513/full/nature13408.html) Now tell a Tibetan that his Denisova DNA is not significant.

Fascinatingly, 0.5% isn't a significant or accurate (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929711003958) amount and probably did not contribute to the 'down syndrome look' of Asians today. Of course Asians have more Neanderthal ancestry than do Europeans, and Neanderthals are not far removed from Denisovans.

Selection for a specific, useful gene, as per a single paper, is fascinating, but does not push the percentage of Denisovan ancestry in East Asians any higher than the fraction of a percentage point that it is.

[Harkonnen]

East Asians are 0.5% Denisova... Papuans around 5%. Of course this is all only based on what is currently known primarily from one toe bone from one individual who lived tens of thousands of years ago. As the amount of archaic human DNA profiles increases, the percentage of archaic human DNA in living people can increase, as well. We can only say at this point that East Asians are significantly Denisova-admixed. Tibetans, for example are only able live in the highest ranges of the mountains because of Denisova DNA (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v512/n7513/full/nature13408.html) Now tell a Tibetan that his Denisova DNA is not significant.

This goes back to my previous post. Obviously Tibetans do not have significant Denisovan admixture. What they have is a situation in which they have positively selected that mutation beneficial in high altitudes. I would be willing to bet Papuans lack this "denisovan high altitude adaptation mutation" despite having more Denisovan autosomal admix. Simply because they have no use for it. Going forward Tibetans through autosomal admixture could loose their Denisovan completely, but still retain this mutation originating in Denisovans. Simply because it is useful, and people having it being destined to success in that environment.

[Grab the Gauge]

Fascinatingly, 0.5% isn't a significant or accurate (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929711003958) amount and probably did not contribute to the 'down syndrome look' of Asians today. Of course Asians have more Neanderthal ancestry than do Europeans, and Neanderthals are not far removed from Denisovans.

Would you like to tell this Tibetan that 0.5% is not significant or accurate?

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/266875/266875,1289917694,4/stock-photo-gorkha-nepal-september-portrait-of-village-tibetan-man-on-september-in-gorkha-65225008.jpg

[Grab the Gauge]

This goes back to my previous post. Obviously Tibetans do not have significant Denisovan admixture.


Obviously they do. 0.5% is significant, especially when all of it is located on the Y-chromosome, where the most important genes in the human genome lie.

[Rugevit]

The Swedish mesolithic remains have a radiocarbo ndating of 20,000-8,000 years, and for yuourninformation Sweden was not covered with ice 17,000 years ago and Arctic ice has never prevented people including Neanderthals (http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/april-2011/article/the-last-neanderthals) from living. Interesting you keep pushing this recent Black Sea origins for blue eyes garbage.

This article. Did you read the article in full and looked at the picture included? The Neanderthal site is at Byzovaya, northern Ural was not covered by Ice sheets. See the map below.

PS I am still waiting for any information about Mesolithic remains of Sweden dated to 17,000 years of age and the absence of ice sheets in Scandinavia and Finland from you.



http://popular-archaeology.com/upload/2697/byzovaya4.jpg


-

[Grab the Gauge]

This article. Did you read the article in full and looked at the picture included? The Neanderthal site is at Byzovaya, northern Ural not covered by Ice sheets. See the map below.

-

The photo merely displays the maximum ice sheet extent at MIS2 roughly 30,000 years ago, not that Byozavaya was not covered in ice (it was).

[Rugevit]

The photo merely displays the maximum ice sheet extent at MIS2 roughly 30,000 years ago, not that Byozavaya was not covered in ice (it was).

First, we need get relevant information and sources about Mesolithic remains of Sweden being 17,000 years of age and Sweden together with Finland were not under ice sheets during that time from you. Then we may discuss the Byzovaya site in details. I am waiting.

[Harkonnen]

Obviously they do. 0.5% is significant, especially when all of it is located on the Y-chromosome, where the most important genes in the human genome lie.

Tibetans have Denisovan Y-dna?

[Grab the Gauge]

First, we need get relevant information and sources about Mesolithic remains of Sweden being 17,000 years of age and Sweden together with Finland were not under ice sheets during that time from you. Then we may discuss the Byzovaya site in details. I am waiting.

Right which is exactly why you posted that Byozavaya picture in the first place, huh? Don't wanna talk about it now? You already posted a source stating that 7,000 YBP was the middle Mesolithic in Sweden, just face it and get on with your life mate you were wrong.

[Nurzat]

How did Finns become white?

they always were

[Longbowman]

Would you like to tell this Tibetan that 0.5% is not significant or accurate?

A photo of an ugly woman you say is Tibetan with the inaccurate implication she looks Denisovan does not override the detailed paper I provided you with nor does it serve to make you look good in any way. Furthermore, as stated, 0.5% is a figure you have conjured out of the air.

I suspect you didn't read the paper. I quote from it:


This suggests that populations with Denisova admixture could have been in proximity to the ancestors of the Onge and Jehai during the earliest settlement of the region but provides no evidence for ancestors of present-day East Asians in the region at that time ( Appendix B). Thus, these findings suggest that the present-day East Asian and Indonesian populations are primarily descended from more recent migrations to the region.


Obviously they do. 0.5% is significant, especially when all of it is located on the Y-chromosome, where the most important genes in the human genome lie.

This is risible, no known YDNA is non-Sapiens in origin. I won't even bother to address the 'most important genes' notion. What, do women lack all the 'most important genes?'

[Rugevit]

Right which is exactly why you posted that Byozavaya picture in the first place, huh?

You accused me of not reading the information you provided. I have read the information about the Bysovaya site too. I will discuss it once we settle the issue on the age of Mesolithic remains from Sweden.



Don't wanna talk about it now? You already posted a source stating that 7,000 YBP was the middle Mesolithic in Sweden. You already posted a source stating that 7,000 YBP was the middle Mesolithic in Sweden, just face it and get on with your life mate you were wrong.

I have stated the right age all along and posted enough information showing the age of Mesolithic remains from Sweden. You have been maintaining the age of Mesolithic remains from Sweden is between 8,000-20,000 ybp and there were no ice sheets in Sweden and Finland 17,000 years ago accusing me of many things along the way. Spare me of personal remarks and this is the last time I am asking to provide the evidence to substantiate your claims.

[Grab the Gauge]

A photo of an ugly woman you say is Tibetan with the inaccurate implication she looks Denisovan does not override the detailed paper I provided you with nor does it serve to make you look good in any way.

I suspect you didn't read the paper. I quote from it:

The person in the photograph was a male, and:

That says absolutely nothing about Denisovan DNA, which East Asians do have to a significant degree.

[Longbowman]

The person in the photograph was a male, and:

Oof.


That says absolutely nothing about Denisovan DNA, which East Asians do have to a significant degree.

Yes it does. Please read the paper. East Asians have no to negligible Denisovan admixture.


Nevertheless, the fact that Denisova genetic material is present in eastern Southeast Asians and Oceanians (Mamanwa, Australians, and New Guineans), but not in the west (Onge and Jehai) or northwest (the Eurasian continent) suggests that interbreeding might have occurred in Southeast Asia itself.


Although some of the observed patterns could alternatively be explained by a history in which there was initially some Denisova genetic material throughout Southeast Asia—which was subsequently displaced by major migrations of people related to present-day East Asians—such a history cannot parsimoniously explain the absence of Denisova genetic material in the Onge and Jehai.

Feel free to provide a paper demonstrating any Denisovan admixture in a group even only so far north as the Han, let alone Siberians.

[Grab the Gauge]

Oof.



Yes it does. Please read the paper. East Asians have none to negligible Denisovan admixture.

How about you read this:



This is sort of where we are with Denisovan ancestry in living human populations. David Reich and colleagues (2011) have showed that most island populations of Indonesia and Oceania east of Wallace’s line have a measurable fraction of Denisovan ancestry, while they found no measurable fraction on the Asian mainland or anywhere that had been connected to the mainland during the last glaciation. Around the same time, Pontus Skoglund and Mattias Jakobsson (2011) generally agree with these findings but additionally suggested that some people in South China have a substantial component of Denisovan ancestry. Neither study had the power to rule out very small levels (<1%) of ancestry, so this does not imply a total absence of all Denisovan introgression in other populations, just that the introgression is at most slight.


A paper by Kay Prüfer in 2013 said that mainland Asians and Native Americans had around 0.2% Denisovan ancestry.[36]

[Grab the Gauge]

You accused me of not reading the information you provided.

Not only that, you did not read the information you provided. :rotfl2

[Longbowman]

How about you read this:

'Some people in South China' a) doesn't imply Han and b) strongly implies no Denisovan in Siberians which is the point. It doesn't contradict Reich et al when they suggest the admixture took place in SE Asia but was later almost totally wiped out by EEA migrations, except in offshore islands. Your source is probably referring to isolated minorities like the Dai or some such.

As for Pruefer, I'm familiar with that paper, which was why I initially suggested your 0.5% 'guesstimate' (source for 0.5%, by the way?) was way too high (250% of the highest actual scientific estimate). Regardless let's say 0.2%. You think that 0.2% had the kind of phenotypical influence McCool seems to think it did? Obviously not. If 0.2% makes one Denisovan then I'm eight times a negro and eleven times a mongol.

[Grab the Gauge]

You think that 0.2% had the kind of phenotypical influence McCool seems to think it did? Obviously not. If 0.2% makes one Denisovan then I'm eight times a negro and eleven times a mongol.

I just posted it and 0.2% is substantial, especially when one remembers that the Denisova never made up more than 0.2% of Earth's population. And that's for all East Asians and Native Americans.

[Longbowman]

I just posted it and 0.2% is substantial, especially when one remembers that the Denisova never made up more than 0.2% of Earth's population. And that's for all East Asians and Native Americans.

You just made that up. There is no evidence Denisovans 'never made up more than 0.2% of the world's population.' Also, that doesn't make it substantial. If there were only 100 Jews ever and I were 0.2% Jewish I would still only be 0.2% Jewish. The Jewish genes in me would not magically become more than 0.2% just because Jews were rare. Furthermore I await your 0.5% source, which you did not post. <1% is not 0.5% and the <1% does not refer to the '[certain minor] South Chinese groups' so either way you misread it. Rather the <1% refers to populations not previously mentioned, from Khoi-San to Icelanders to Sami.


Neither study had the power to rule out very small levels (<1%) of ancestry, so this does not imply a total absence of all Denisovan introgression in other populations, just that the introgression is at most slight.

[Rugevit]

Right which is exactly why you posted that Byozavaya picture in the first place, huh? Don't wanna talk about it now?

You are stuck on something as simple as checking the basic facts. Trolling did help you either. Let's discuss the Byzovaya site as I promised. This is what stated in the article about estimated age of Neanderthal remains at the Byzovaya and the map which was included in the article for a reason.

----

Says Slimak, "Byzova is considered an Upper Paleolithic (40,000 - 10,000 years BP) site because it [the artifact assemblage] dates to 28,500 years ago and in all of Europe -- all of Eurasia

Map showing the location of the Byzovaya site, close to the northern Urals. Other sites are also shown. The red stippled line circumscribes the area with known Neanderthal sites; here only some selected young sites are marked. The maximum extent of the Eurasia Ice Sheet (about 26,000 to 20,000 years B.P.), according to Svendsen et.al. (2004), is also shown. [Image courtesy Science/AAAS]

http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/april-2011/article/the-last-neanderthals
---

In other words, the artifact assemblage dated to 28,500 ybp at the Byzovaya site were not in the ice-sheets as there were no ice-sheets during that time at the Byzovaya site.



http://popular-archaeology.com/upload/2697/byzovaya4.jpg

[Hashoeva]

What does the colour of your hair or eyes has to do with how Asiatic you look like? Finns can look Asiatic even if they have blue eyes or blonde hair. It doesnt mean anything. They have some Asiatic ancestry which can show up in their appearance.

A blonde Mongolian girl (Mongols have a bit of East-European / Caucasian ancestry which can show up even though it is rare)
http://static.flickr.com/92/233012392_eca64c39ab_b.jpg

[Grab the Gauge]

You just made that up. There is no evidence Denisovans 'never made up more than 0.2% of the world's population.'

Yes, tbere is, and this is the general scientific consensus based on population structure inferred from genetic profiles, as well as physical evidence of extremely low population densities among these hominids such as inbreeding.



Also, that doesn't make it substantial.

The number 0.2% is substantial regardless of the world's ancient demograpics.



If there were only 100 Jews ever and I were 0.2% Jewish I would still only be 0.2% Jewish. The Jewish genes in me would not magically become more than 0.2% just because Jews were rare.

It would mean that you were 0.2% Jewish to the exclusion of all the other populations of the world who numbered 100 as well as to other groups who did number more than 100.


Furthermore I await your 0.5% source, which you did not post. <1% is not 0.5% and the <1% does not refer to the '[certain minor] South Chinese groups' so either way you misread it. Rather the <1% refers to populations not previously mentioned, from Khoi-San to Icelanders to Sami.

"Around 0.2%" is roughly 0.5%.

[Longbowman]

Yes, tbere is, and this is the general scientific consensus based on population structure inferred from genetic profiles, as well as physical evidence of extremely low population densities among these hominids such as inbreeding.

Then link me or be dismissed.


The number 0.2% is substantial regardless of the world's ancient demograpics.

Then why mention the world's ancient demographics? But no, it isn't.


It would mean that you were 0.2% Jewish to the exclusion of all the other populations of the world who numbered 100 as well as to other groups who did number more than 100.

But still no more than 0.2% of your genome, so this is irrelevant, which is my point.


"Around 0.2%" is roughly 0.5%.

So you increased the value by 250% to make it sound more impressive. That's honestly disgusting. If you knew the figure given was 0.2% as you claim to have an arbitrarily increased it to make it sound more impressive, that's essentially a lie. Might I remind you 0.5 is less close to 0.2 than is zero. A very low and dishonest tactic, assuming you're telling the truth.

[Grab the Gauge]

http://popular-archaeology.com/upload/2697/byzovaya4.jpg


You clearly on the autism spectrum so I'm going to do this as simply as humanly possible:

The maximum extent of the Arctic ice sheet at MIS2 was not the only ice sheet on Earth.

Nor does it mean everything off of that ice sheet was free of ice.

Byozavaya was covered in ice.

And ice does not prevent people from living on it; as groups like the Inuit have proven.

------------------------------------------

Now, write that down on a chalk board and headbutt it 20,000 times, and see if it doesn't resonate by the time you are finished.

[Rugevit]

You clearly on the autism spectrum so I'm going to do this as simply as humanly possible. [/B]
------------------------------------------

Now, write that down on a chalk board and headbutt it 20,000 times, and see if it doesn't resonate by the time you are finished

You are walking a thin line. One more insult and disciplinary measures will be taken. Do you understand this ?






The maximum extent of the Arctic ice sheet at MIS2 was not the only ice sheet on Earth.

Nor does it mean everything off of that ice sheet was free of ice.

Byozavaya was covered in ice.

And ice does not prevent people from living on it; as groups like the Inuit have proven.

Read again what is written about the ice-sheets covering the Byzovaya site


Map showing the location of the Byzovaya site, close to the northern Urals. Other sites are also shown. The red stippled line circumscribes the area with known Neanderthal sites; here only some selected young sites are marked. The maximum extent of the Eurasia Ice Sheet (about 26,000 to 20,000 years B.P.), according to Svendsen et.al. (2004), is also shown. [Image courtesy Science/AAAS] [in other words no ice-sheets were covering the Byzovaya site 28,500 years ago at the time Neanderthals lived at the Byzovaya]


If you have any evidence to suggest the region at which Byzovaya is located was covered by ice-sheets 28,500 years ago then provide that evidence.

http://popular-archaeology.com/upload/2697/byzovaya4.jpg

[Grab the Gauge]

Then link me or be dismissed.


jhawks@wisc.edu


Then why mention the world's ancient demographics? But no, it isn't.

Yes it is, and this back and forth only hinges on your refusal to drop your incorrect opinion that it is not. Science says so.




But still no more than 0.2% of your genome, so this is irrelevant, which is my point.

Not all genomes are created equal, and all inheritance is not equally distributed. It would be extremely fucking relevant, and it is.

[Longbowman]

jhawks@wisc.edu

This is an email address, not a source. If you expect me to email whoever's there, and just take his word for it, I won't, and also, that's a dreadfully convenient and dishonest debating tactic. You're really doing yourself a disservice here.


Yes it is, and this back and forth only hinges on your refusal to drop your incorrect opinion that it is not. Science says so.

Then prove it with a source.


Not all genomes are created equal, and all inheritance is not equally distributed. It would be extremely fucking relevant, and it is.

It isn't relevant at all and you have no proof that it is, especially phenotypically, which is the point. At this stage we have no reason to believe that that 0.2% is any more significant than 0.2%, or one in every 500 SNPs.

[Grab the Gauge]

This is an email address, not a source. If you expect me to email whoever's there, and just take his word for it, I won't, and also, that's a dreadfully convenient and dishonest debating tactic. You're really doing yourself a disservice here.

It is the email address of a world-renown paleoanthropologist, he told it directly to me so you just ask him for sources because I'm not about to dig sources for someone who is just going to completely ignore them and continue insisting that 0.2, 0.5 or 1% is not significant, because they themselves are insecure the small level of admixture in their own genome.

[Grab the Gauge]

You are walking a thin line. One more insult and disciplinary measures will be taken. Do you understand this ?

Do you understand that "autism spectrum" is not an insult? Do not post that quote or that image again you are spamming irrelevant and off-topic information.

[Longbowman]

It is the email address of a world-renown paleoanthropologist, he told it directly to me so you just ask him for sources because I'm not about to dig sources for someone who is just going to completely ignore them and continue insisting that 0.2, 0.5 or 1% is not significant, because they themselves are insecure the small level of admixture in their own genome.

If he hasn't released any peer-reviewed data on the issue then his idea is not valid.

Dig or be ignored, and subsequently banned, or retract your statement. You are making a mockery of everyone who is politely addressing your rude and constantly insulting posts. No, I'm not insecure - what am I insecure about? Denisovan genes? Why would they bother me? No, 0.2% isn't significant and 0.5 and 1% are figures you made up and then refused to apologise for making up when you were called on them. Now, when I have pushed you to the corner and demanded you provide evidence to counter the points I've raised, all you do is lash out.

This is a warning. Your second of the day, and your last.

[Grab the Gauge]

If he hasn't released any peer-reviewed data on the issue then his idea is not valid.

Dig or be ignored, and subsequently banned, or retract your statement. You are making a mockery of everyone who is politely addressing your rude and constantly insulting posts. No, I'm not insecure - what am I insecure about? Denisovan genes? Why would they bother me? No, 0.2% isn't significant and 0.5 and 1% are figures you made up and then refused to apologise for making up when you were called on them. Now, when I have pushed you to the corner and demanded you provide evidence to counter the points I've raised, all you do is lash out.

This is a warning. Your second of the day, and your last.

You cannot ban me for not posting something.

[Grab the Gauge]

And it isn't his idea, ask him for the sources.

[Longbowman]

You cannot ban me for not posting something.

Pardon me, I wrote that poorly. Another insult and you will be [temporarily] banned.

[Longbowman]

And it isn't his idea, ask him for the sources.

No. This is absurd. It is your contention, you do the work. This is not how a debate functions.

[Rugevit]

Do you understand that "autism spectrum" is not an insult?

You are trolling not adding much to the discussion. Insults won't be tolerated though.




Do not post that quote or that image again you are spamming irrelevant and off-topic information.

I will post the the text and the map which the text describes as many times as needed until you understand what the the author discusses. There won't be evidence to show that the Byzovaya site was covered with ice-sheets 28,500 years ago contrary to the commentary of the article from you again?

[Grab the Gauge]

No. This is absurd. It is your contention, you do the work. This is not how a debate functions.

Why don't you just get the answer directly from him? Even my patience has its limits. The paper from Myers is not available online freely but that very source writes:



Whereas African populations and living humans outside Africa share signs of population growth in the last 100,000 years, the Denisova genome seems to have come from a population that had long been small, and may have been shrinking.

You're just going to have to write the man and ask him personally, dude. I can't quote directly from a study I have no access to.

[Grab the Gauge]

I will post the the text and the map which the text describes as many times as needed until you understand what the the author discusses

If you spent more time reading than posting (or headbutting) them, you might learn that they do not suggest what you inferred.

[Longbowman]

Why don't you just get the answer directly from him? Even my patience has its limits. The paper from Myers is not available online freely but that very source writes:

You're just going to have to write the man and ask him personally, dude. I can't quote directly from a study I have no access to.

Then you must accept that we cannot accept your contention. Besides his opinion without sources would mean little. Your patience? Christ almighty.

[Grab the Gauge]

Then you must accept that we cannot accept your contention. Besides his opinion without sources would mean little. Your patience? Christ almighty.

You wouldn't accept the facts regardless, but here is the study: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6104/222

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Shitty rat-faced ENF admixture is like 45% of your blood. East Asians aren't mixed with Denisovans to any significant degree, you're thinking of Polynesians and Melanesians.

Calm down.

I sense tension between the two of us lately.

You seem to think I'm some sort of Ernst Rohm Gay Nazi.

The world does not work like that...I am not a Nazi, nor white supremacist, nor white nationalist, nor any of these labels, I am not even centre-right.

45% of my blood? Please. I have the least ENF of anyone.

I was just expressing an opinion, if you don't like it, I'm sorry. Loki has freedom of speech policy here, I can express my opinions. I am not advocating anything.

[Longbowman]

You wouldn't accept the facts regardless, but here is the study: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6104/222

What part of this says 0.2% of the world's population?


We present a DNA library preparation method that has allowed us to reconstruct a high-coverage (30×) genome sequence of a Denisovan, an extinct relative of Neandertals. The quality of this genome allows a direct estimation of Denisovan heterozygosity indicating that genetic diversity in these archaic hominins was extremely low. It also allows tentative dating of the specimen on the basis of “missing evolution” in its genome, detailed measurements of Denisovan and Neandertal admixture into present-day human populations, and the generation of a near-complete catalog of genetic changes that swept to high frequency in modern humans since their divergence from Denisovans.

[Rugevit]

If you spent more time reading than posting (or headbutting) them, you might learn that they do not suggest what you inferred.

The elements of material culture found at the Byzyvoaya site could not exist in ice sheets. The author discussing the Neanderthal site included the map showing no ice sheets were covering the Byzovaya site at the time of Neanderthal presence on purpose. For people like you.

[Longbowman]

Calm down.

I sense tension between the two of us lately.

You seem to think I'm some sort of Ernst Rohm Gay Nazi.

The world does not work like that...I am not a Nazi, nor white supremacist, nor white nationalist, nor any of these labels, I am not even centre-right.

45% of my blood? Please. I have the least ENF of anyone.

I was just expressing an opinion, if you don't like it, I'm sorry. Loki has freedom of speech policy here, I can express my opinions. I am not advocating anything.

The least ENF of anyone in Europe is still around 40%.

Here, you're probably 40-45%: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml

I didn't try to suppress your freedom of expression. Your freedom of expression does not extend, however, to calling people 'rat-faced.' I expect more of our staff.

[Grab the Gauge]

Then you must accept that we cannot accept your contention. Besides his opinion without sources would mean little. Your patience? Christ almighty.


What part of this says 0.2% of the world's population?

You're looking at the abstract of the paper not the full paper, which was my point. You will have to get a subscription to sciencemag to read the entire thing. See why I said you won't even read or understand anything I post? You refuse to listen.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

The least ENF of anyone in Europe is still around 40%.

Here, you're probably 40-45%: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml

I didn't try to suppress your freedom of expression. Your freedom of expression does not extend, however, to calling people 'rat-faced.' I expect more of our staff.

You sure it doesn't? Besides, I was saying that jokingly.

[Longbowman]

You're looking at the abstract of the paper not the full paper, which was my point. You will have to get a subscription to sciencemag to read the entire thing. See why I said you won't even read or understand anything I post? You refuse to listen.

Do you have a subscription? Take a screenshot of the relevant part.

[Longbowman]

You sure it doesn't? Besides, I was saying that jokingly.

Yes. Insults aren't covered. You're a staff member and you should know that.

[Grab the Gauge]

The elements of material culture found at the Byzyvoaya site could not exist in ice sheets. The author discussing the Neanderthal site included the map showing no ice sheets were covering the Byozavaya site

No, he did not. He posted a map showing that the Arctic ice sheet at its maximum did not cover Byozavaya at MIS2. ice, not connected to the Arctic ice sheet, was however, covering Byozavaya. Headbutt it repeatedly.

[Rugevit]

What part of this says 0.2% of the world's population?

He won't reference any material. If he references a source, the information won't be relevant to the discussion. He's done this on several occasions.

[Longbowman]

He won't reference any material. If he references a source, the information won't be relevant to the discussion. He's done this on several occasions.

I know, I've pointed this out before.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Yes. Insults aren't covered. You're a staff member and you should know that.

Insults? I love rat-faces, it was totally a compliment.

Seriously, I thought only insults towards individuals were not allowed. Wadaad insulted the entire Alevi peoples and did not get banned.

[Grab the Gauge]

Do you have a subscription? Take a screenshot of the relevant part.

No I do not and what you describe is illegal. The easiest thing you can do is email Hawks and get the information directly from an expert. You refuse to do this because you refuse to listen. You know you are going to find information you do not want to know.

[Rugevit]

No, he did not. He posted a map showing that the Arctic ice sheet at its maximum did not cover Byozavaya at MIS2. ice, not connected to the Arctic ice sheet, was however covering Byozavaya.

The author did not state that any ice was covering the Byzovaya site 28,500 years ago. Provide the evidence there were ice sheets covering the site around 28,500 years ago. Alternatively, use simple logic. If there were ice sheets and cold weather how could Neanderthals obtain the ihings found at the site.

[Longbowman]

Insults? I love rat-faces, it was totally a compliment.

Seriously, I thought only insults towards individuals were not allowed. Wadaad insulted the entire Alevi peoples and did not get banned.

Wadaad is no longer a staff member. Insults won't get you banned (well, enough will) and yes of course personal ones are worse but racial slurs are also not allowed. 'Rat-faced' is insulting and contributes nothing to the conversation.

[Longbowman]

No I do not and what you describe is illegal. The easiest thing you can do is email Hawks and get the information directly from an expert. You refuse to do this because you refuse to listen. You know you are going to find information you do not want to know.

I don't have an agenda. You do, clearly (eg increasing arbitrarily the amount of Denisova admix in East Asians). Please stop projecting. If the information is inaccessible then it must be discarded.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Wadaad is no longer a staff member. Insults won't get you banned (well, enough will) and yes of course personal ones are worse but racial slurs are also not allowed. 'Rat-faced' is insulting and contributes nothing to the conversation.

Fine. I won't say that again.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

At any rate, Swedes are still the Übermensch.

Most great things from Finland came from Finland-Swedes.

[Grab the Gauge]

The extent of mixture between these two archaic lineages and Africans was significant and persistent; ancient populations, meaning Neandertals and the Denisovan Asians, account for some 8 % of the ancestry of living non-Africans according to Reich and colleagues.

This is a substantial percentage, given the likelihood that these were small, peripheral populations at the northern margin of the Eurasian range. This growing body of new information fleshes out the details of Multiregional Evolution in ways that the fossil record could not address.

http://www.academia.edu/3762914/Wolpoff_2013_MRE

[Grab the Gauge]

I don't have an agenda. You do, clearly (eg increasing arbitrarily the amount of Denisova admix in East Asians). Please stop projecting. If the information is inaccessible then it must be discarded.

Lol. No. The information is available and a world-renown paleoanthropologist has relayed it. Your choice to ignore it is based purely in emotion and not logic. Denisova and Neanderthal hominids were fringe, tiny populations. How much of a percentage do you think Denisovans ever made up of Earth's population, given that it took archaeology 100 years to finally dig one up?

[StonyArabia]

They were a Nordic people who got an uralic language via an unralic elite

[Grab the Gauge]

The author did not state that any ice was covering the Byzovaya site 28,500 years ago. Provide the evidence there were ice sheets covering the site around 28,500 years ago. Alternatively, use simple logic. If there were ice sheets and cold weather how could Neanderthals obtain the ihings found at the site.

OH YEAH MAN HOW COULD YOU EVER GET ANYTHING WHEN IT WAS COLD AND THERE WAS ICE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeAKVGKSAxQ

[Longbowman]

Lol. No. The information is available and a world-renown paleoanthropologist has relayed it. Your choice to ignore it is based purely in emotion and not logic. Denisova and Neanderthal hominids were fringe, tiny populations. How much of a percentage do you think Denisovans ever made up of Earth's population, given that it took archaeology 100 years to finally dig one up?

We can't know from a single archaeological site and speculating is futile. No, the information is not available to either of us.

[Rugevit]

OH YEAH MAN HOW COULD YOU EVER GET ANYTHING WHEN IT WAS COLD AND THERE WAS ICE

Not everything. The things that were found at the Byzovaya site will not exist in the midst of ice. Read the article and look at the diagrams. The author is implying there were no ice-sheets present at the site 25,000-30,000 years ago.

[Grab the Gauge]

Not everything. The things that were found at the Byzovaya site will not exist in the midst of ice. Read the article and look at the diagrams. The author is implying there were no ice-sheets present at the site 25,000-30,000 years ago.

Ice ≠ ice sheets / headbutt x 20,000

[Petroskoijari]

At any rate, Swedes are still the Übermensch.

Most great things from Finland came from Finland-Swedes.
Swedish Finns are only 5.3% of the population.

[Rugevit]

Ice ≠ ice sheets / headbutt x 20,000

The discussion was about ice sheets to begin with in reference to inhospitable environment for the living things. Now , you are making references to ice. What's next? Icicles?

[Hevo]

The least ENF of anyone in Europe is still around 40%.



Isn't the lowest ENF score like 26% in Europe?(Finns/Balts/Northern Russians?)

[Longbowman]

Isn't the lowest ENF score like 26% in Europe?(Finns/Balts/Northern Russians?)

Yeah, even Ukrainians get less than Scandos.

[Grab the Gauge]

The discussion was about ice sheets to begin with in reference to inhospitable environment for the living things. Now , you are making references to ice

No it was not. You're not on the same spectrum as everybody else and multiple attempts to enlighten you have failed. That video of the Inuit I posted was an example of people living in an environment covered by ice several feet deep, and close to the ice sheets, but not on an ice sheet. Byzovaya was one such location.

[Äijä]

They were a Nordic people who got an uralic language via an unralic elite

I rarely mention this possibility to avoid shitstroms.

[Rugevit]

No it was not. You're not on the same spectrum as everybody else and multiple attempts to enlighten you have failed. That video of the Inuit I posted was an example of people living in an environment covered by ice several feet deep, and close to the ice sheets, but not on an ice sheet. Byzovaya was one such location.


Yes, it was. The discussion started with ice-sheets covering Scandinavia at 17,000 ybp. You realised you were wrong and immediately began discussing ice in general. As if the existence of ice at Byzovskaya was relevant when discussing if Neanderthals could settle in harsh conditions similar to those found in Scandinavia during the ice-age. There was no attempt to enlighten you either, as you are hopeless and cannot present arguments coherently referencing the sources of information appropriately.

[Grab the Gauge]

Chronology of what really happened:


Yes, it was, as the discussion start with ice-sheets in Scandinavia at 17,000 ybp.

You put forth the wrong and irrelevant utterance that Sweden was covered in ice.



You realised you were wrong and immediately began discussing ice in general.

I mentioned Neanderthals lived on ice, you started talking about ice sheets after you saw a photo with the word "sheet" on it.



There was no attempt to enlighten you, as you are hopeless. Not by me.

You then screamed the words "oh sheet" after realizing you fucked up and proceeded to engage in a multitask Autistic mating ritual of copypasta, monitor headbutting, arm flaling and high pitched wailing resembling:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miOWJ4rKb_g

[Äijä]

:popcorn:

[Rugevit]

Chronology of what really happened:



You put forth the wrong and irrelevant utterance that Sweden was covered in ice.

I mentioned Neanderthals lived on ice, you started talking about ice sheets after you saw a photo with the word "sheet" on it.


The discussion started with the ice age in Scandinavia in reference to inhospitable environment for people to be present in Scandinavia 17, 000 years ago. You suggested that people could live in ice referencing Neanderthals at the Byzovskaya site. The condition at the Byzovskaya were nowhere similar to those of Scandinavia covered by ice sheets. Many sites around Europe have ice . And icicles too. You may just referenced them too . But how was it relevant?



You then screamed the words "oh sheet" and proceeded to engage in a multitask Autistic mating ritual of copypasta, monitor headbutting, arm flaling and high pitched wailing.

That's what you have been doing and warned few times along the way.

[Grab the Gauge]

That's what you have been doing and warned few times along the way.

■ And I'm going to warn you to stop making passive-aggressive threats to ban people for unbannable comments -- because they proved you wrong.

[Äijä]

The discussion started with the ice age in Scandinavia in reference to inhospitable environment for people to be present in Scandinavia 17, 000 years ago. You suggested that people could live in ice referencing Neanderthals at the Byzovskaya site. The condition at the Byzovskaya were nowhere similar to those of Scandinavia covered by ice sheets. Many sites around Europe have ice . And icicles too. You may just referenced them too . But how was it relevant?



That's what you have been doing and warned few times along the way.


Not to mention that after the ice melted much of Finland and Sweden was under water, we have the effects of the ice retreating and the later lake/ocean floor and coastlines clearly visible on the landscape today.

Finland is still rising from the sea every year!

This guy is a pure troll.

[Instinct]

Finns were already white :)

Maybe Finns themselves made a few European nations white ;)

[Rugevit]

Not to mention that after the ice melted much of Finland and Sweden was under water, we have the effects of the ice retreating and the later lake/ocean floor and coastlines clearly visible on the landscape today.

Finland is still rising from the sea every year!

As ice sheets receded many lakes were formed in Finland . Belarus was covered by ice sheets too . As ice sheets retreated many swamps were formed in Belarus. Belarus and Lithuania possibly too are swampy countries. 1/4 of Belarus was under swamps not so long ago. Ice sheets also brought large stones to our land. In the past people considered those stones sacred. There are many stones still around.




This guy is a pure troll.

He is not even good at trolling.

[Grab the Gauge]

Not to mention that after the ice melted much of Finland and Sweden was under water, we have the effects of the ice retreating and the later lake/ocean floor and coastlines clearly visible on the landscape today.

Finland is still rising from the sea every year!

This guy is a pure troll.

Looks like we have another casualty of Scandinavian public education here, folks.

[Rugevit]

■ And I'm going to warn you to stop making passive-aggressive threats to ban people for unbannable comments -- because they proved you wrong.

I didn't threat to ban people. I warned you not to insult forum members. Dude! Don't be ridiculous.

[Grab the Gauge]

I did threat to ban people. I warned you not to insult forum members. Dude! Don't be ridiculous.

You specifically threatened "disciplinary action" which goes to show what a hapless schmuck you are. Can't believe Loki allowed all these greasy etniks to become mods and admins here.

[Rugevit]

Looks like we have another casualty of Scandinavian public education here, folks.

What's wrong in his comments? You are the last person to comment on Finnish system of education here.

[Rugevit]

You specifically threatened "disciplinary action" which goes to show what a hapless schmuck you are.

That's right. I warned you after repeated insults. I was not the only one.


Can't believe Loki allowed all these greasy etniks to become mods and admins here.

Keep going. ;)

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Swedish Finns are only 5.3% of the population.

That's right. Yet they gave most to Finnish culture.

Sibelius, Moomins, the Finnish anthem, etc.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Yeah, even Ukrainians get less than Scandos.

Dreams crushed.

But ew. Ukrainians.

I guess some Neolithic blood is a good thing, if you are too native you'll end up like Ukrainians!

Scandos are the perfect balance. Not too ENF, not too Hunter-Gatherer.

[Äijä]

That's right. Yet they gave most to Finnish culture.

Sibelius, Moomins, the Finnish anthem, etc.

Part of the pan-European cultural sphere, Swedes got that from Germans etc.

Many Swedish speaking Finns are originally ethnically Finnish that went up the social ladder of the time, some are from Central Europe.

It means very little, the same as English speaking Finns creating art and science today for the world market.

When Finland became part of Sweden they where culturally in the same level, difference is that Sweden had men that wanted the seal of approval to rule from the Pope.

[abcd123]

They used monobenzone.Jacko approved.

[Petroskoijari]

Part of the pan-European cultural sphere, Swedes got that from Germans etc.

Many Swedish speaking Finns are originally ethnically Finnish that went up the social ladder of the time, some are from Central Europe.

It means very little, the same as English speaking Finns creating art and science today for the world market.

When Finland became part of Sweden they where culturally in the same level, difference is that Sweden had men that wanted the seal of approval to rule from the Pope.

He is just jealous :cool:.

[Petroskoijari]

Looks like we have another casualty of Scandinavian public education here, folks.

Just common facts. You must also believe in creationism.

[Äijä]

Moomins are a pretty funny example of Finland-Swedish contributions. :D

I would focus on the nationalist leaders that raised their children as Finnish speakers, Sibelius went to a Finnish speaking school.
The family is not totally Swedish ethnically anyways like most of the Swedish speaking families.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

He is just jealous :cool:.

Jealous of what?

What do I have to be jealous of you for?

[Petroskoijari]

Jealous of what?

What do I have to be jealous of you for?

You tell me.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Moomins are a pretty funny example of Finland-Swedish contributions. :D

I would focus on the nationalists leaders that raised their children as Finnish speakers, Sibelius went to a Finnish speaking school.
The family is not totally Swedish ethnically anyways like most of the Swedish speaking families.

Most Swedish families of Sweden are not totally Swedish ethnically, either. And the Sweden-Finns of course have Swedish blood infused.

What is your point? Language is a uber important part of shaping the identity, how a person thinks has everything to do with language. A full blooded Finn who speaks Swedish, I would not consider a Swede, but still a product of Sweden :cool:

At any rate, Sibelius' blood is mostly Swedish, and the creator of Moomins as far as I know is Swedish as can be.

Swedes from Sweden gave the world Dunderklumpen! which is better than Moomins anyway.

I probably have some distant Finnish roots, probably almost every Swedish family does. It means nothing. No one is 100% pure anything.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

You tell me.

The only Finns I admire happen to be Finland-Swedes, and since I'm a Swede, I really don't have anything to be jealous of native Finns for.

[Äijä]

Most Swedish families of Sweden are not totally Swedish ethnically, either. And the Sweden-Finns of course have Swedish blood infused.

What is your point? Language is a uber important part of shaping the identity, how a person thinks has everything to do with language. A full blooded Finn who speaks Swedish, I would not consider a Swede, but still a product of Sweden :cool:

At any rate, Sibelius' blood is mostly Swedish, and the creator of Moomins as far as I know is Swedish as can be.

Swedes from Sweden gave the world Dunderklumpen! which is better than Moomins anyway.

I probably have some distant Finnish roots, probably almost every Swedish family does. It means nothing. No one is 100% pure anything.


We know pretty well every family in this country and now we have DNA tests, so I call BS on Sibelius.

http://www.sibelius.fi/suomi/suku_perhe/suku_sibelius.htm


Not to mention the Finnish ancestry in Sweden that is huge compared to Swedish ancestry in Finland.

Creator of Moomins does have an Über Finland-Swedish look, dont know where it comes from, it needs to be studied.

https://lizfergusonmontrealgazette.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/fifa-jansson-photo.jpg

http://www.vol1brooklyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/tove-jansson-stamp.jpeg

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

We know pretty well every family in this country and now we have DNA tests, so I call BS on Sibelius.

http://www.sibelius.fi/suomi/suku_perhe/suku_sibelius.htm


Not to mention the Finnish ancestry in Sweden that is huge compared to Swedish ancestry in Finland.

Creator of Moomins does have an Über Finland-Swedish look, dont know where it comes from, it needs to be studied.

https://lizfergusonmontrealgazette.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/fifa-jansson-photo.jpg

http://www.vol1brooklyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/tove-jansson-stamp.jpeg

Yes, she looks a lot like my own relatives.

Anyways, I stand corrected about Sibelius, I just read that he was a Finland-Swede and assumed that meant much of his ancestry was Swedish.

[Äijä]

http://www.jukkajoutsi.com/ajalka31.jpg

This look is ten times more common in Finland-Swedes than in Finnish speakers, it should be studied.

Mannerheim (German roots) is hardly an example of an regular potato farming Finland-Swede.

[Grab the Gauge]

Just common facts. You must also believe in creationism.

Fact: the melting of ice sheets around Scandinavia caused flooding throughout Northern Europe.

Fact: It was nothing like the biblical Great Flood. (http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-dk-historie6.htm)

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

http://www.jukkajoutsi.com/ajalka31.jpg

This look is ten times more common in Finland-Swedes than in Finnish speakers, it should be studied.

Mannerheim (German roots) is hardly an example of an regular potato farming Finland-Swede.

I never mentioned Mannerheim.

Weird how Finland-Swedes look more Asiatic than Finns.

[Äijä]

I never mentioned Mannerheim.

Weird how Finland-Swedes look more Asiatic than Finns.

Not all of them, they are not an heterogeneous people, some are 13th century immigrants, some are of Central European heritage etc.

If you moved in to the Swedish empire you learned Swedish usually.

[Jupiter]

they don't?

http://static.iltalehti.fi/jalkapallo/vaakamixu1510_503_jp.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/cwrothman/SGbgFJTp9vI/AAAAAAAAA6E/rC8sDJDHoKE/image%5B13%5D.png?imgmax=800

http://oud.fashionscene.nl/images/library/16/3a/1f/97/dd_annmarie.jpg

http://en.people.cn/200508/22/images/0821_E67.jpg

http://www.protocolo.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/ministro-finlandes.jpg

Some definitely have a strong vibe.


Regardless, what do you mean ? Aren't Asians white? (I suppose you mean East Asians/Siberians) what colour are then then?


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Yakut_costume_7.jpg/590px-Yakut_costume_7.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/dd/4b/77dd4b52b108e54f18ece4bca4856317.jpg

Just because they have white skin doesn't mean they're white. Many Japanese people have naturally white skin but they aren't white people.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Not all of them, they are not an heterogeneous people, some are 13th century immigrants, some are of Central European heritage etc.

If you moved in to the Swedish empire you learned Swedish usually.

Not arguing with you on that.

[Äijä]

http://www.protocolo.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/ministro-finlandes.jpg

http://oud.fashionscene.nl/images/library/16/3a/1f/97/dd_annmarie.jpg

Finland-Swedes.

[Grab the Gauge]

Petroskoijari thumbed my post down. :rotfl2



http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-dk-historie5.htm



When the kilometers-thick Scandinavian ice sheet began to melt the freshwater lake, the Baltic Ice Lake, was formed. It was a cold sea with drifting icebergs. The lake's surface level was higher than the World Sea. Some believe that the ice lake emptied as a major flood disaster around the year 9,600 BC, but most believe that it happened gradually.

The landscape of present-day Denmark was dominated by icy steppes and regular tundra roamed by a small numbers of reindeer hunters.

[Äijä]

I dont see them as strange but just putting it out there for those that see something stereotypically "Uralic" in them.

[Berahthraban]

Finland-Swedes.

Not arguing with you just want to point out that the guy (Stubb) is half Finland Swedish and half Finnish, at least according to wiki

[Harkonnen]

That's right. Yet they gave most to Finnish culture.

Sibelius, Moomins, the Finnish anthem, etc.

If I say that the sky is black
It is as black as I want it to be and
If I say, that the world is not spinning
Then it does not spin, jumalauta
From my mouth I'm spitting this truth
Now you can taste the forest and from my mouth
You can read the history of the people one last time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4i9gf1dcTM

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

If I say that the sky is black
It is as black as I want it to be and
If I say, that the world is not spinning
Then it does not spin, jumalauta
From my mouth I'm spitting this truth
Now you can taste the forest and from my mouth
You can read the history of the people one last time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4i9gf1dcTM

What is your point, Uralic?

[Äijä]

Not arguing with you just want to point out that the guy (Stubb) is half Finland Swedish and half Finnish, at least according to wiki

Some more.

http://www.tageronnqvist.com/wp-content/uploads/920.jpg

http://www.google.fi/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fd3ac2fc8l4ni8x.cloudfro nt.net%2F1394542813668.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radiorock.fi%2F%23!%2Fm uu%2FZaani&docid=P23LLBfH9q0UKM&tbnid=uUz4WkgJ7KLkvM%3A&w=468&h=314&ved=0CAIQxiBqFQoTCPv_48WqkMgCFcaULAodlZAGLQ&iact=c&ictx=1



http://hbl.fi/sites/default/files/styles/full_600/public/2011/05/heikkila2.jpg?itok=OLVbbgYU?1306737751

http://demokraatti.fi/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/J251123Y-720x380.jpg

http://helsinki.vasemmisto.fi/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Silvia-Modig.jpg

[Peter Nirsch]

Because they started to have sex with Swedish people IMHO.

[Äijä]

Because they started to have sex with Swedish people IMHO.

You know what they say about opinions.

[Harkonnen]

What is your point, Uralic?

Someone changes the names of our local shops at nights
mothers give birth to children who speak in tongues we cannot understand
Who commands here, who is obeyed here?
two great gods, Avarice and Money
whose temples are the stockmarkets and the brothels,
the markets, the shops, the colored city-lights
But I am, and I live and I breathe
this one great god, Lust for Life
its temples are the pubs, brothels,
markets, shops, the colored city-lights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_Xy_xUzx8

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Someone changes the names of our local shops at nights
mothers give birth to children who speak in tongues we cannot understand
Who commands here, who is obeyed here?
two great gods, Avarice and Money
whose temples are the stockmarkets and the brothels,
the markets, the shops, the colored city-lights
But I am, and I live and I breathe
this one great god, Lust for Life
its temples are the pubs, brothels,
markets, shops, the colored city-lights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_Xy_xUzx8

I am not a Uralic Finnomongol I do not understand you or your culture or what you are trying to say right now...

[Äijä]

I am not a Uralic Finnomongol I do not understand you or your culture or what you are trying to say right now...

It a song with a nationalist sentiment against the present degeneration.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

It a song with a nationalist sentiment against the present degeneration.

Oh, cool.

[Harkonnen]

I am not a Uralic Finnomongol I do not understand you or your culture or what you are trying to say right now...



When flogs of cranes fly to west
pigeons silently hover above the nightly lake
and gulls sing the last melody

The night is yellow and black
The blue-one is watching, wondering
who is fooling us, who is tricking us
when the ground is blue and red

The truth has been teared to pieces
everyone of us knows this
the law has swept away the dust of the truth
I'm pure and I lie

Also this brave urban dream
is part of my nature
there isn't a boundary, no shelter
everything is transient

Dead people sleep in the city
under a ocean of candles
and every Christmas, we have time
to cry on the grave

I intertwine inside my sorrow
it's so beutiful, beutiful, beautiful
no one can take this from me
i've paid for it all

Who believes in this all now
who still believes in the snake
that spits poison with two tongues
to the hall of our dreams

Even though I always don't manage
to believe and love
still there is left some
beauty to look at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2pdcts6p5w

[Biant]

Good song, tho.

[JanPulja]

Finns always were white. In addition, the uralic settlers were whiter than the flood of neolithic wogs that swept over Southern and Western Europe.

[Longbowman]

I am not a Uralic Finnomongol I do not understand you or your culture or what you are trying to say right now...

You do look more pseudo-Asiatic than any Finn here, though.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

You do look more pseudo-Asiatic than any Finn here, though.

True.

I don't know why that is, but I bet it's because of high Hunter-Gatherer/ANE blood.

Though according to you I have a lot of ENF blood, too.

I always thought I was only like 1% ENF.

I didn't know even Scandos were nearly half ENF. I am tempted to call bullshit on that idea, but you wouldn't lie...

[Longbowman]

True.

I don't know why that is, but I bet it's because of high Hunter-Gatherer/ANE blood.

Though according to you I have a lot of ENF blood, too.

I always thought I was only like 1% ENF.

I didn't know even Scandos were nearly half ENF. I am tempted to call bullshit on that idea, but you wouldn't lie...

1% EEF? Dude the old Gokhem (4000 years ago in Sweden) remains are as ENF as Sardinians are today.

ENF is an integral European component. Yes, I suspect ANE is the cause of your looks.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

1% EEF? Dude the old Gokhem (4000 years ago in Sweden) remains are as ENF as Sardinians are today.

ENF is an integral European component. Yes, I suspect ANE is the cause of your looks.

I thought it was a Southern Euro thing, though I knew every European had some ENF blood, I didn't know it was so much.

Isn't it true that some Slavic peoples get the most ANE? I wonder if I get more ANE than the people with the most ANE or what??

[Longbowman]

I thought it was a Southern Euro thing, though I knew every European had some ENF blood, I didn't know it was so much.

Isn't it true that some Slavic peoples get the most ANE? I wonder if I get more ANE than the people with the most ANE or what??

Well ANE came from Ancient North Eurasia which is why yes, Slavs and people close to North Eurasia, like Selkups, score most of it. You almost certainly score less ANE than either group.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Well ANE came from Ancient North Eurasia which is why yes, Slavs and people close to North Eurasia, like Selkups, score most of it. You almost certainly score less ANE than either group.

Actually, I'm looking at a spreadsheet right now...that has me in it (I didn't even know I was in it). It looks like I get more than the average Swede, anyways. That is saying something, I think. Swedes get more than most Europeans (besides the ones we've been talking about). So I do get high ANE.

Like all Europeans, I'm a mix of Farmers, Hunter-Gatherers and ANEs. All Europeans are essentially a mix of these three.

I have more ANE, though. I have a lot of Farmer apparently, but less than Southern Euros.

[Longbowman]

Actually, I'm looking at a spreadsheet right now...that has me in it (I didn't even know I was in it). It looks like I get more than the average Swede, anyways. That is saying something, I think. Swedes get more than most Europeans (besides the ones we've been talking about). So I do get high ANE.

Like all Europeans, I'm a mix of Farmers, Hunter-Gatherers and ANEs. All Europeans are essentially a mix of these three.

I have more ANE, though. I have a lot of Farmer apparently, but less than Southern Euros.

Of course, all NW Euros have WHG, ENF and then ANE.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Of course, all NW Euros have WHG, ENF and then ANE.

I mean,

it's really more about the individual.

Grace O'Malleys Irish and her mother scores more ANE than me.

I have a hard time identifying at all with the ENF part of my heritage. I've always felt like a Hunter-Gatherer/ANE mix. Then you got some Euros with even more Hunter-Gatherer and less ENF, when you compare Swedes with these people, Swedes look like swarthy sand niggers. So it's hard finding a real identity.

[Longbowman]

I mean,

it's really more about the individual.

Grace O'Malleys Irish and her mother scores more ANE than me.

I have a hard time identifying at all with the ENF part of my heritage. I've always felt like a Hunter-Gatherer/ANE mix. Then you got some Euros with even more Hunter-Gatherer and less ENF, when you compare Swedes with these people, Swedes look like swarthy sand niggers. So it's hard finding a real identity.

She still scores more ENF and WHG than ANE.

Your identity really shouldn't be based on ancient components.

[Longbowman]

I mean,

it's really more about the individual.

Grace O'Malleys Irish and her mother scores more ANE than me.

I have a hard time identifying at all with the ENF part of my heritage. I've always felt like a Hunter-Gatherer/ANE mix. Then you got some Euros with even more Hunter-Gatherer and less ENF, when you compare Swedes with these people, Swedes look like swarthy sand niggers. So it's hard finding a real identity.

She still scores more ENF and WHG than ANE.

Your identity really shouldn't be based on ancient components.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

She still scores more ENF and WHG than ANE.

Your identity really shouldn't be based on ancient components.

Agreed I guess.

I don't actually have that much WHG-UHG, though I would have liked to believe I was uber that. Hell, I'm more ENF than Sikeliot's mother according to this spreadsheet.

I definitely get more ENF than the Swedish average.

I should really identify with all three, I shouldn't single one of these out considering I am way more ENF than I thought, more ANE than a lot, and, well, I am not as WHG-UHG as I thought but still I mostly am.

I'll identify with all three of these from now on, seeing as all three contributed to me and to the greater European ethnogenesis. All three are equally important. I take back any foul things I have said about ENF people before...I was mislead.

[Longbowman]

Agreed I guess.

I don't actually have that much WHG-UHG, though I would have liked to believe I was uber that. Hell, I'm more ENF than Sikeliot's mother according to this spreadsheet.

I definitely get more ENF than the Swedish average.

I should really identify with all three, I shouldn't single one of these out considering I am way more ENF than I thought, more ANE than a lot, and, well, I am not as WHG-UHG as I thought but still I mostly am.

I'll identify with all three of these from now on, seeing as all three contributed to me and to the greater European ethnogenesis. All three are equally important. I take back any foul things I have said about ENF people before...I was mislead.

Well you're not pure Swedish, and Germany, English and Dutch all score higher ENF.

[Petroskoijari]

Petroskoijari thumbed my post down. :rotfl2



http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-dk-historie5.htm

Yes I did :).

[Harkonnen]

Agreed I guess.

I don't actually have that much WHG-UHG, though I would have liked to believe I was uber that. Hell, I'm more ENF than Sikeliot's mother according to this spreadsheet.

I definitely get more ENF than the Swedish average.

I should really identify with all three, I shouldn't single one of these out considering I am way more ENF than I thought, more ANE than a lot, and, well, I am not as WHG-UHG as I thought but still I mostly am.

I'll identify with all three of these from now on, seeing as all three contributed to me and to the greater European ethnogenesis. All three are equally important. I take back any foul things I have said about ENF people before...I was mislead.

Do you like ever like ever wonder like whats its all about like. Or do you just go whichever way the wind blows

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Do you like ever like ever wonder like whats its all about like. Or do you just go whichever way the wind blows

huh?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Well you're not pure Swedish, and Germany, English and Dutch all score higher ENF.

Looks like I get more ENF than some British people on here...I get more than the SE_English average according to the spreadsheet.

The point is I should not have bad mouthed ENFs :)

[Harkonnen]

huh?

And the wind blows still and the wind blows wild again. Does it mean anything to you? Or is it like whatever

[Longbowman]

Looks like I get more ENF than some British people on here...I get more than the SE_English average according to the spreadsheet.

The point is I should not have bad mouthed ENFs :)

One of us, one of us, one of us.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

And the wind blows still and the wind blows wild again. Does it mean anything to you? Or is it like whatever

No, I really don't care which way the wind blows.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

One of us, one of us, one of us.

Well, I am definitely re-considering my stance (especially after seeing the spreadsheet).

I do feel bad about bad mouthing ENFs now. I never knew they were so important to the European ethnogenesis.

[Harkonnen]

No, I really don't care which way the wind blows.

How would you feel if you busted your knee tripping on some rock on your way to nowhere, only to find out that the bloody rock was a actually a gem of the rarest kind. Thrown down from heavens above by gods themselves with their seven hands.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

How would you feel if you busted your knee tripping on some rock on your way to nowhere, only to find out that the bloody rock was a actually a gem of the rarest kind. Thrown down from heavens above by gods themselves with their seven hands.

I'd feel pretty special.

[Harkonnen]

I'd feel pretty special.

You would not feel pain?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

You would not feel pain?

I would feel some pain, yes. But I'd be happy that I just tripped over a gem of the rarest kind.

[Harkonnen]

I would feel some pain, yes. But I'd be happy that I just tripped over a gem of the rarest kind.

What if this pain was not normal pain. It would not go away, but only intensify. Also the beauty of the gem would not be normal either, it would also only intensify. To get rid of the pain, you'd have to eat the gem. Would you eat the gem?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

What if this pain was not normal pain. It would not go away, but only intensify. Also the beauty of the gem would not be normal either, it would also only intensify. To get rid of the pain, you'd have to eat the gem. Would you eat the gem?

Hmmm.

Okay, yes, I'd eat the gem. I thought the pain would go away, if it didn't go away, then it's not worth having the gem around.

[Insuperable]

You are scientifically illiterate and you do not know any of the claims you just made here for a fact.

When it comes to this matter of course I am scientifically illiterate, but I can read results. The other day you claimed that Oase1 speciman found in Romania has an East Asian EDAR variant when in fact that is not the case. First of all Oase' is AA at rs3827760 and secondly OASE is 37 000 - 42 000 years old human while East Asian EDAR mutation is several thousand years younger, that is 30 000 - 35 000 years old. Just because of this you are in no position to speak about scientific illiteracy.

Secondly Loschbour, La Brana and similar were also AA while the surprise for scientists as it is written is that 4 out of 7 Scandinavian HGs were either AG or GA and one of them was GG. The rest were AA. Although all European HGs were closer compared to all other populations, Scandinavian HGs were a bit different than WHGs in sharing more alleles with Mal'ta like population (though Mal'ta boy also didn't have that EDAR mutation). This can be easily seen on PCA plot. This is most likely why some SHGs had EDAR mutation though their best fit is 81% WHG and 19% ANE.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.hr/2013/12/ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three.html

This component (ANE) was very likely present in Southern Scandinavia since at least the Mesolithic (see the summary of SHG below), but only seems to have reached Western Europe after the Neolithic.

Loschbour in their analysis is used to represent all WHGs.

Our estimates of mixture proportions (Fig. 2B and Extended Table 3)
> indicate that EEF [Early European Farmer] ancestry in Europe today
> ranges from as little as around 30% in the Baltic to as high as
> around 90% in the Mediterranean.
> . . . Europeans also have ANE [Ancient North Eurasian] ancestry (up
> to ~20%), which is widespread across Europe, but quantitative less
> as the WHG [West European Hunter-Gatherer]/(WHG+ANE) ratio is
> ~0.6-0.8 for most Europeans (SI12). The history behind the ANE
> ancestry in West Eurasia is not simple, as the Near East has little
> or no WHG ancestry but substantial levels of ANE ancestry there
> especially in the North Caucasus (SI12; Fig.1B; Fig. 2). Loschbour
> and Stuttgart had little or no ANE ancestry, indicating that it was
> not as pervasive in central Europe around the time of the
> agricultural transition as it is today. (By implication ANE ancestry
> was also not present in the ancient Near East; since Stuttgart
> which has substantial Near Eastern ancestry lacks it.) However, ANE
> ancestry was already present in at least some Europeans
> (Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherers) ) by ~8,000 years ago. . . "

[Insuperable]

Not all East Asians are EDAR positive either :) It is at least somewhat nonsensical to build correlations between autosomal components and individual genetic mutations such as EDAR.
Highest percentages of EDAR are actually found among Native Americans and some Siberians. If I remember correctly South East Asians don't have really that much. You can see, that based on this, it is even possible that the actual original EDAR mutation could have happened in a ANE population, but was later introduced into ENA populations, and henceforth positively selected in these populations. Remember that mesolithic Scandinavians had ANE. Btw I'm not really that serious about this theory, but I do see it as a genuine possibility. Remember that for example Komi people completely lack the EDAR mutation (also remember that populations such as Poles and Greeks have some EDAR) despite having reasonably high East Eurasian admix. This ofc because of negative selection.

Agreed, it is of course possible. It could have become fixed in East Asian due to selection, but introduced by ANE like population. Mal'ta boy didn't have it, but perhaps it wasn't fixated at the time and could be present in other samples. Hezhe, Karitiana, Oroqen, Pima... have the highest percentage (100%) while SE Asians have less than 50%. Even more than 25% of Hmong people don't have EDAR mutation and many Han people too. On the other even out of 24 samples Somalis 3 or 4 of them had EDAR mutation.xD


Still I do think that you are quite right that at least most modern Europeans do not have much actual ancestry from mesolithic Scandinavians. Only lack of EDAR does not prove it.

EDAR mutation does not prove it, true. It really is written that EDAR mutation only further proves that they didn't contribute much to modern populations.

[katalonia]

Mongolia confirmed for 100% Aryan.

[Nurzat]

Mongolia confirmed for 100% Aryan.

I read Katatonia instead of Katalonia, lel