Theophanies and Polytheistic Reconstruction

[Psychonaut]

I'd like to know what you all think about theophanies as they relate to contemporary polytheistic reconstruction.


Theophany, from the Greek, theophaneia (meaning "appearance/showing of God"), refers to the appearance of a deity to a human, or to a divine disclosure.

I don't think any of us will deny that theophanies occur (or at the very least that people who experience them believe them to occur); the question at hand is what to make of a theophany?

If we look back to the Neolithic period, we see that religion in general was shamanic, which is undoubtedly theophantic in nature. The revalations of the shaman would form the base of religious beliefs for the tribe, since the shaman was seen as an intermediary between the worlds.

While this level of theophantic influence declined steadily in most of the world's religions, seers retained a very high position within Indian religious hierarchy for a long time. The Vedas are, allegedly, revealed texts, the direct products of theophanies. To this day, many Indian sects under the "Hindu" umbrella have doctrines that stem from relatively recent revelations.

While this type of thing was not as prominent in Europe, it was not wholly absent in the Classical age. Delphic Oracles such as Pythia can be seen as theophantic figures who exerted great influence on all around them. Similarly, the Norse Völuspá can be seen as a theophantic revelation of a seeres.

Now, within the contemporary polytheist community, theophantic information is usually caveated as being UPG (unique/unverified personal gnosis) and is treated as being a personal rather than universal truth. My questions to you folks include: at what point nowadays, if ever, can a theophantic revelation transition transition from being UPG into Lore of the same order as the Völuspá or Hávamál? Alternatively, if the theophany was not singular in nature but was an SPG (shared personal gnosis) would it, in your opinion, be more likely to be able to become Lore?

[Skandi]

I think that with the advent of science and also comunication it is much less likely for one persons views to influence so many. That may sound a bit illogical as we can now tell more people than ever, but those people who we tell are less likely to believe us and as they will not be constantly exposed to the idea (as they would have been in a tribal setting) the idea is less likely to stick. Partially because of the fact that the number of different ideas that they will hear over a given period of time will also have increased.




Alternatively, if the theophany was not singular in nature but was an SPG (shared personal gnosis) would it, in your opinion, be more likely to be able to become Lore?

I think that a SPG would be much more likely to pass on into the lore, in the fact that it would pass into that groups lore and that, may then in turn influence others overtime. We're much more likely to believe a group than a singleton.

[Gooding]

If the theophany was a shared personal gnosis, or SPG, if you like,I think that it would be a lot more likely to become Lore, with the usual scribal modifications of detail as time went on and interpretations varied.I say this merely because if the gods and goddesses were to impart a message, or perhaps a new truth, or a rediscovered old truth, to a crowd of people at the same time, however mundane the actual events leading up to that mass revelation, those details could be modified, touched up to look interesting and captivate the listeners and readers.I think then that the basic lesson of the SPG would be retained and others would enjoy learning about it.How would one verify an SPG,though?Asatru might be off to a slow and gradual start now, but I believe that the basic lessons of this will one day perhaps be recorded as the Aesir and Vanir returning from a long exile and Thor destroying a brutal Jotun;).That said, I must state that for me Lore is a presentation of vital lessons gained from events that may or may not have been historical and those lessons, or theophanies, in other words,were given to us by the Holy Powers to preserve and learn from.I do not doubt that there are more lessons to come.

[Vargtand]

Well I would advise caution to incorporate it into what we would define as lore.
Because even if these things occurred that a god would come down and speak to us or show it self for us/someone/something, one must recognise that there are always two versions of the message...
The one that is being said and the one that is being understood.

Now due to safe to say all of us Germanic people have been and still are in some way affected by Christian teachings and doctrines, be it directly or indirectly. Even if we manage to rid our self of this influence we still retain it in the back of our mind which means, that what ever message we read and understand we will without any exclusion interpret the message in such a way that it will be coloured by our previous understanding of the world that is very coloured by Christianity and modernism in general.

I would caution as to include this into lore, as I've written in other threads and I know I am being repetitive but this needs to happen in a logical order first we must purge the taint go back to our old ways and from there evolve onwards.. if it is to be relevant for Asatur for instance otherwise it would simply be Neo-asatru, neo-paganism I advise against as much as I advise against neo-conservatism, or neo-liberalism. or Neo-commu...Wait I advise against the old as well in that regard..

Just my reflection on the matter of course, I can be completely wrong, it might be fully possible to include it in "official lore" so to speak.

[Vargtand]

If the theophany was a shared personal gnosis, or SPG, if you like,I think that it would be a lot more likely to become Lore, with the usual scribal modifications of detail as time went on and interpretations varied.I say this merely because if the gods and goddesses were to impart a message, or perhaps a new truth, or a rediscovered old truth, to a crowd of people at the same time, however mundane the actual events leading up to that mass revelation, those details could be modified, touched up to look interesting and captivate the listeners and readers.I think then that the basic lesson of the SPG would be retained and others would enjoy learning about it.How would one verify an SPG,though?Asatru might be off to a slow and gradual start now, but I believe that the basic lessons of this will one day perhaps be recorded as the Aesir and Vanir returning from a long exile and Thor destroying a brutal Jotun;).That said, I must state that for me Lore is a presentation of vital lessons gained from events that may or may not have been historical and those lessons, or theophanies, in other words,were given to us by the Holy Powers to preserve and learn from.I do not doubt that there are more lessons to come.

If I understand the concept of a SPG correctly it would be a collective database most likely? (please correct me if I am wrong I can’t say I know the term)
If my assumption is correct then who would then moderate this collective database? As surely there will be contradicting accounts, and naturally be accounts where the exposed party simply misunderstand the situation or just had a bad dream.. (I have a saying, he who looks for god finds him in everything).. Who would moderate such things who would deem what was correct and what was, what is false?

As I am sorry to say, we have no pure untainted followers of Asatru, those died before the Viking age.. so I fear these judges would then either be scholars, and approach it scientifically with what information we have, perhaps philosophers? Or self proclaimed gothi (you call it this correct?) Eg the problem would be who would judge… then we would go the same root as organised religion and that is a problem I think…

Or of course we let it free people could add as they chose and let time show what was true and what was false. That is probably the best approach to take if you intend to build something that can be classed as lore. It would be subjective for trends of society though..

Difficult questions. Of course I could have misunderstood it all from the start as I said I am not familiar with the term…

[Gooding]

If I understand the concept of a SPG correctly it would be a collective database most likely? (please correct me if I am wrong I can’t say I know the term)
If my assumption is correct then who would then moderate this collective database? As surely there will be contradicting accounts, and naturally be accounts where the exposed party simply misunderstand the situation or just had a bad dream.. (I have a saying, he who looks for god finds him in everything).. Who would moderate such things who would deem what was correct and what was, what is false?

As I am sorry to say, we have no pure untainted followers of Asatru, those died before the Viking age.. so I fear these judges would then either be scholars, and approach it scientifically with what information we have, perhaps philosophers? Or self proclaimed gothi (you call it this correct?) Eg the problem would be who would judge… then we would go the same root as organised religion and that is a problem I think…

Or of course we let it free people could add as they chose and let time show what was true and what was false. That is probably the best approach to take if you intend to build something that can be classed as lore. It would be subjective for trends of society though..

Difficult questions. Of course I could have misunderstood it all from the start as I said I am not familiar with the term…


I find myself in agreement with you,sir.This database,I think, would be "monitored", so to speak, by the Asatru community itself.Time+custom+Lore might be how such a shared personal gnosis might be monitored.I do not know if the future of Asatru is to be hierarchical, with a High Gothi, or a group of High Gothar determining doctrine and practice, or if it would be more representative, with a High Althing being comprised of reps of various local thingar(is that right?) determining what is to be regarded as Lore, or no.Perhaps with the introduction of new gods will come new Lore.My wife follows the Fae Craft and with certain talks with her, I wonder whether or not the Vanir might achieve ascendency over the Aesir, at least temporarily, with the new focus humanity has on the Earth and Cosmos.That would certainly involve new lore, with succeeding generations to develop it.I might be way off in left field, but those are my thoughts.

[Psychonaut]

Who would moderate such things who would deem what was correct and what was, what is false?

This is, in my opinion, the very crux of the issue. In the past, all societies were stratified and contained a priestly caste (the Vedic Brahmins, Norse Goðar, Gallic Druids, etc). It was the domain of the priestly caste (who would be the civilized descendants of the ancient shamans) to decide these types of things. This is certainly a matter where egalitarian ideas that, unfortunately, are overrepresented in American Heathenry, must be pushed to the wayside. We have yet to develop any type of real spiritual authority. All current Heathen groups are based on authority that is strictly temporal, most being based on who founded the group. I think that for us to have theophanies that are valid for the Folk as a whole, we would first have to have some sort of spiritual authorities. There are a handful of groups that seem to be working in that direction, but since they are currently marginalized within the Heathen community, I doubt their theophanies will be accepted by the greater Heathen community.

[Vargtand]

I find myself in agreement with you,sir.This database,I think, would be "monitored", so to speak, by the Asatru community itself.Time+custom+Lore might be how such a shared personal gnosis might be monitored.I do not know if the future of Asatru is to be hierarchical, with a High Gothi, or a group of High Gothar determining doctrine and practice, or if it would be more representative, with a High Althing being comprised of reps of various local thingar(is that right?) determining what is to be regarded as Lore, or no.Perhaps with the introduction of new gods will come new Lore.My wife follows the Fae Craft and with certain talks with her, I wonder whether or not the Vanir might achieve ascendency over the Aesir, at least temporarily, with the new focus humanity has on the Earth and Cosmos.That would certainly involve new lore, with succeeding generations to develop it.I might be way off in left field, but those are my thoughts.


Well even with such a system we would still have the problem of it being coloured by contemporary society.. Just from personal observation what I’ve read about various groups of so called Heathens here in Sweden at least they all seem to be pseudo Christians, or hippy Christians as I call them.

A sort of longing to be different but at the same time squeezing it into the box of acceptability that society has put around them, adjusting the faith the customs to those rules.
As long as we can see this trend I would at least say stay clear of adding things and mixing things in. once this trend is gone first then would it be advisable I think. But that would require that both you and I were long put into the earth or burned if you so wish.
For we are all tainted, corrupted even (if I am allowed to be slightly poetic..) we carry with us to much of contemporary culture and time for us to be proper developers of this legacy.
I foresee that the effort would better be spent, rather than developing the sagas further, the old ones need to be uncovered first, and when that is done, and maybe my children’s children would grow up not knowing the words of Abraham but only knowing our peoples culture, only knowing our heroes only knowing our ways, and of course science. That child I think would be most suited to further the development of our culture.

With that said to further continue actually answering your post. That way of organising it although logical to say the least might cause quite a rigid school, if not careful we could end up with a replica of white Christ’s church. There might be a danger there. As one sees with Christianity that well theologically speaking it’s quite stagnant and due to it’s rigidness it became just that. And I think we both can agree that there is a problem when the religion does not follow the culture.. namely that they become two separate entities. And that is something I wish never to happen with Asatru which is in my mind a cultural legacy and it’s very nature makes it both cultural and religious without being one or the other…

As for the Asar and Vaner I can’t say I have contemplated their roles in quite that way so I would need to get back to you on that one :)






This is, in my opinion, the very crux of the issue. In the past, all societies were stratified and contained a priestly caste (the Vedic Brahmins, Norse Goðar, Gallic Druids, etc). It was the domain of the priestly caste (who would be the civilized descendants of the ancient shamans) to decide these types of things. This is certainly a matter where egalitarian ideas that, unfortunately, are overrepresented in American Heathenry, must be pushed to the wayside. We have yet to develop any type of real spiritual authority. All current Heathen groups are based on authority that is strictly temporal, most being based on who founded the group. I think that for us to have theophanies that are valid for the Folk as a whole, we would first have to have some sort of spiritual authorities. There are a handful of groups that seem to be working in that direction, but since they are currently marginalized within the Heathen community, I doubt their theophanies will be accepted by the greater Heathen community.

Hmm, what source do you have for such a tight and defined priesthood in asatru? As from what I’ve understood it was often the king who took the role of the Goði, and from my understanding there was no defined priest cast if you excuse the wording.

I do not think you are lying nor do I accuse you of being misinformed, it seems strange that this is conflicting to what I previously thought to be true though.


Regarding a spiritual authority, it becomes tricky as I do not think all could unite behind one for that, that they agreed with it. I think the only natural would be that the strongest movement the most charismatic leader became that, eg a king, someone who seized the power and fended of the opposition. It becomes quite silly when I word it like this, it is how ever how the Christian equivalent came to be…

I would think (just a personal opinion) that perhaps a combination of scholars and philosophers with the aid of psychologists should become the authority as while scholars may know the stories a philosopher would be able to understand it and the psychologist would see to it that the philosopher would not draw to much influences from other cultures.. well hopefully…

Or it can be completely scholar based or computer based where it would simply be a matter of yes or no, did it exist answers…

Basically I am trying to illustrated that it would be difficult to conclude who would make the best authority.

[Psychonaut]

Hmm, what source do you have for such a tight and defined priesthood in asatru? As from what I’ve understood it was often the king who took the role of the Goði, and from my understanding there was no defined priest cast if you excuse the wording.

A relevant passage from H.R. Ellis Davidson's Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe can be read here (http://books.google.com/books?id=scC_AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=%22much+less+is+known+about+the+Germanic+and%22&source=web&ots=CIxp6LPbeL&sig=jytcC43e6oTkY8AZDxFNczpZ31g&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result). The


I do not think you are lying nor do I accuse you of being misinformed, it seems strange that this is conflicting to what I previously thought to be true though.

:thumb001:

[Aemma]

Ok admittedly I haven't read the whole thread yet because I'm just chomping at the bit to say something here! (I'm such a patient woman, eh? Not! :D)

On the subject of UPGs, honestly I've always had a difficulty with this concept. Not that I don't believe that they occur, of course they do, but I much prefer the use of your term Psychonaut for the mere fact that it speaks of this phenomenon in a much more objective way than the term UPG suggests. But my major qualm with UPGs has much to do with exactly how these events are incorporated into our development as a belief system. In fact, I see too much of a tendency for these to eventually one day become established dogma than anything else. This idea that if a majority of people have the same 'visions' or 'epiphanies' then it must be 'true' scares the living heck out of me because my heathenry and how I practise it eschews such groupthink tendencies. In my short time as a heathen, I have come across too many Heathens who are not folkish, but universalist, and who have come from a variety of traditions, other than Chrisitianity, which have in my view skewed, some notions that are the foundations of a true indigenous and cultural belief system such as is Heathenry. I fear the likes of a Diana Paxson who wields quite a bit of power out in the open Asatru community to start dictating to me and my own one day that no you're doing it all wrong. what's that saying that we have in the community? One heathen says: I do it this way. The other one says: No you're doing it all wrong! Or the other little saying: Put a question to 5 different heathens and you'll get 6 different answers.

The overall community is fragmented and part of the membership is not legitimate in my honest and blunt opinion. Those who do not recognise that Heathenry/Asatru is a belief system that culturally belongs to a People in my opinion have no right to practise it. Yet there are some out there, for instance the likes of a Diana Paxson, who will debate this point otherwise. Talk about multikult!! Hel, I used to belong to a group of Heathens which sought to bring us all together in an online community which could share in the pleasures of us all identifying ourselves as Heathen, no matter what stripe. I made some good friends there over the years but I am no longer part of that community and have severed all official ties. Why? Because it doesn't work. However I digress....

I agree with Vargtand wholeheartedly. There is way too much baggage, Christian or otherwise, for us to say that whomever's UPGs can and should have a place as Lore proper. I would suggest that we call it something else entirely if we are to regard UPGs as something that perhaps should be incorporated as further study material. Perhaps 'The Books of Modern Traditions' or 'The Books of Modern Theophanies'? But to me, the notion of 'the Lore' is pretty narrow in terms of what it entails: the Eddas, the sagas, hmmm can't honestly say I can think of anything else to place in the Lore category. Folklore stories are equally important to me but they stay in the realm of exactly that, folklore.

Ok, had to get this bit off of my chest. :) I'll return a bit later to read the rest and further comment. :)

Cheers for now!...Aemma

[Lyfing]

Here’s a perspective..

Theophanies could be looked at as a part of our inward heroic journey.


..to my considerable amazement I learned, on reading it, that the imagery of schizophrenic fantasy perfectly matches that of the mythological hero*journey, which I had outlined and elucidated, back in 1949, in The `' Hero with a Thousand Faces. My own had been a work based on a comparative study of the mythologies of mankind, with only here and there passing references to the phenomenology of dream, hysteria, mystic visions, and the like. Mainly, it was an organization of themes and motifs common to all mythologies; and I had had no idea, in bringing these together, of the extent to which they would correspond to the fantasies of madness. According to my thinking, they were the universal, archetypal, psychologically based symbolic themes and motifs of all traditional mythologies; and now from this paper of Dr. Perry I was learning that the same symbolic figures arise spontaneously from the broken-off, tortured state of mind of modern individuals suffering from a complete schizophrenic breakdown: the condition of one who has lost touch with the life and thought of his community and is compulsively fantasizing out of his own completely cut-off base.

Very briefly: The usual pattern is, first, of a break , away or departure from the local social order and context; next, a long, deep retreat*inward*and backward, as it were, in time, and*inward, deep into the psyche; a chaotic series of encounters there, darkly terrifying experiences, and presently (if the victim is fortunate) encounters of a centering kind, fulfilling, harmonizing, giving new courage; and then finally, in such fortunate cases, a return*journey*of rebirth to life. And that is the universal formula also of the mythological hero*journey, which I, in my own published work, had described as: 1) separation, 2)initiation, and 3) return:

A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow men.2

That is the pattern of the myth, and that is the pattern of these fantasies of the psyche

Schizophrenia: The Inward Journey, by Joseph Campbell ( From Myths To Live By (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1002) )

Back in the days of the shamans their “personal dream-symbology” was the same as the symbology of their culture. It all worked out…


The opposite type of psychotic patient, on the other hand, a pitiful thing to behold, has dropped into a snake-pit deep within. His whole attention, his whole being, is down there, engaged in a life-and-death battle with the terrible apparitions of unmastered psychological energies-which, it would appear, is exactly what the potential shaman also is doing in the period of his visionary*journey. And so, we have next to ask what the difference is between the predicament of the "essential schizophrenic" and that of the trance-prone shaman: to which the answer is simply that the primitive shaman does not reject the local social order and its forms; that, in fact, it is actually by virtue of those forms that he is brought back to rational consciousness. And when he has returned, furthermore, it is generally found that his*inward*personal experiences reconfirm, refresh, and reinforce the inherited local forms; for his personal dream-symbology is at one with the symbology of his culture. Whereas, in contrast, in the case of a modern psychotic patient, there is a radical break off and no effective association at all with the symbol system of his culture. The established symbol system here provides no help at all to the poor lost schizophrenic, terrified by the figments of his own imagination, to which he is a total stranger; whereas, in the case of the primitive shaman, there is between his outward life and his*inward*a fundamental accord.

Schizophrenia: The Inward Journey, by Joseph Campbell ( From Myths To Live By (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1002) )

Now, our “personal dream symbology” has nothing to do with the religions around us. We ( well.. many of us ) no longer have a traditional set of supernormal sign stimuli to work on our unique set of innate releasing mechanisms.


And so we have this critical problem, as I say, this critical problem as human beings, of seeing to it that the mythology-the constellation of sign signals, affect images, energy-releasing and -directing signs-that we are communicating to our young will deliver directive messages qualified to relate them richly and vitally to the environment that is to be theirs for life, and not to some period of man already past, some piously desiderated future, or–what is worst of all–some querulous, freakish sect or momentary fad. And I call this problem critical because, when it is badly resolved, the result for the misadjusted individual is what is known, in mythological terms, as a Waste Land situation. The world does not talk to him; he does not talk to the world. When that is the case, there is a cut-off, the individual is thrown back on himself, and he is in prime shape for that psychotic break-away that will turn him into either an essential schizophrenic in a padded cell, or a paranoid screaming slogans at large, in a bughouse without walls.

Schizophrenia: The Inward Journey, by Joseph Campbell ( From Myths To Live By (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1002) )


So, we question how our own inner visions relate to contemporary polytheistic reconstruction in an attempt to remedy this..??


..at what point nowadays, if ever, can a theophantic revelation transition transition from being UPG into Lore of the same order as the Völuspá or Hávamál? Alternatively, if the theophany was not singular in nature but was an SPG (shared personal gnosis) would it, in your opinion, be more likely to be able to become Lore?

When the whole show is taken as poetry..


There is always in the adventure great danger of what is known to psychology as "inflation," which is what overtakes the psychotic. He identifies himself-' either with the visionary object or with its witness, the visionary subject. The trick must be to become aware of it without becoming lost in it: to understand that we may all be saviors when functioning in relation to our friends or enemies: savior figures, but never The Savior. We may all be mothers and fathers, but are never The Mother, The Father.

Schizophrenia: The Inward Journey, by Joseph Campbell ( From Myths To Live By (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1002) )

…


A distinction must be drawn, through all our studies of mythology, between the attitudes toward divinities represented on one hand by the priest and his flock, and on the other by the creative poet, artist, or philosopher. The former tends to what I would call a positivistic reading of the imagery of his cult. Such a reading is fostered by the attitude of prayer, since in prayer it is extremely difficult to retain the balance between belief and disbelief that is proper to the contemplation of an image or idea of God. The poet, artist, and philosopher, on the other hand, being themselves fashioners of images and coiners of ideas, realize that all representation--whether in the visible matter of stone or in the mental matter of the word--is necessarily conditioned by the fallibility of the human organs. Overwhelmed by his own muse, a bad poet may imagine his visions to be supernatural facts and so fall into the posture of a prophet--whose utterances I would define as “poetry overdone,” over-interpreted; wherefore he becomes the founder of a cult and a generator of priests. But so also a gifted priest may find his supernatural beings losing body, deepening into void, changing form, even dissolving: whereupon he will possibly become either a prophet or, if more greatly favored, a creative poet.

Occidental Mythology, Page 518

Later,
-Lyfing

[Psychonaut]

Theophanies could be looked at as a part of our inward heroic journey.

That's pretty much how I take it as well. I've had all kinds of crazy theophanies and hierophanies, but they generally only relate to my personal mythos.


There is always in the adventure great danger of what is known to psychology as "inflation," which is what overtakes the psychotic. He identifies himself-' either with the visionary object or with its witness, the visionary subject. The trick must be to become aware of it without becoming lost in it: to understand that we may all be saviors when functioning in relation to our friends or enemies: savior figures, but never The Savior. We may all be mothers and fathers, but are never The Mother, The Father.

This is absolutely right. Jung and Eliade both make similar warnings throughout their works. The last thing we need is some crazy jackass who goes around convincing people that he's an avatar of Thor. :D


But to me, the notion of 'the Lore' is pretty narrow in terms of what it entails: the Eddas, the sagas, hmmm can't honestly say I can think of anything else to place in the Lore category.

Here's a followup question then: what is it that defines Lore? Like I said, there are several pieces that look to be the results of theophanies; others are records of historical events. Why should our Lore be restricted to documents that were written prior to an arbitrary date? If (and that's a pretty big 'if' ;)) some Heathen were to produce a work of the same order as either of the Eddas, would it not make sense to treat it similarly to those works that it resembles? Hopefully I'm not drawing an unfair comparison, but the idea of a closed canon of religious literature seems oddly out of place in Heathenry and is perhaps a Christian holdover. For example, our closest IE pagan relatives, the Indians, have a continually expanding body of religious literature.

[Vargtand]

This is absolutely right. Jung and Eliade both make similar warnings throughout their works. The last thing we need is some crazy jackass who goes around convincing people that he's an avatar of Thor. :D


That marvel already did.. [that could turn into a topic in it's own right so I'll leave my rambling out of it]



Here's a followup question then: what is it that defines Lore? Like I said, there are several pieces that look to be the results of theophanies; others are records of historical events. Why should our Lore be restricted to documents that were written prior to an arbitrary date? If (and that's a pretty big 'if' ;)) some Heathen were to produce a work of the same order as either of the Eddas, would it not make sense to treat it similarly to those works that it resembles? Hopefully I'm not drawing an unfair comparison, but the idea of a closed canon of religious literature seems oddly out of place in Heathenry and is perhaps a Christian holdover. For example, our closest IE pagan relatives, the Indians, have a continually expanding body of religious literature.

Well I would not call the Indians close but when everything in-between disappears indeed it becomes the closest…

Now I could of course answer this with the same answer as I’ve given in all of my posts but that would be quite tiring :P

So apart from the obvious fact that the heathen who were to write this would be a born again heathen and that he would have other cultural baggage with him.

But I may settle for it that had the works filled the gaps that our current source of information gives us then it may hypothetically work. How ever a general rule of thumb lore > neo-lore always.
Though with Germanic myth very much of it is composed of sagas of heroes and well.. in that sense those that a Germanic pagan would consider heroes would meet the qualifications to fit into lore.. So to speak.

[Lyfing]

Here's a followup question then: what is it that defines Lore? Like I said, there are several pieces that look to be the results of theophanies; others are records of historical events. Why should our Lore be restricted to documents that were written prior to an arbitrary date? If (and that's a pretty big 'if' ;)) some Heathen were to produce a work of the same order as either of the Eddas, would it not make sense to treat it similarly to those works that it resembles? Hopefully I'm not drawing an unfair comparison, but the idea of a closed canon of religious literature seems oddly out of place in Heathenry and is perhaps a Christian holdover. For example, our closest IE pagan relatives, the Indians, have a continually expanding body of religious literature.

Maybe. I’d certainly like to see a work which would really put this question on the table. There are a few I’m aware of that are something of the sort. One is Robert Blumetti’s The Book of Balder Rising. I’ve never read it, but it seems to fit what’s been talked about..

This is from the forward (http://books.google.com/books?id=_CXd9_Qzs5YC&pg=PR9&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1#PPR10,M1)..


Several of its members were able to induce a humanistic trance-state. Blumetti was especially adept at this and was able to travel to other worlds while in such a trance state. While in such a state, Blumetti experienced several moving, and sould transforming incidents.

…

The third incident happened one night when the God Balder appeared before Blumetti in his bedroom. Blumetti was waken from his sleep and found Balder standing at the foot of his head. The figure of Balder seemed translucent, as if a light shined from within, but the light did not fill the room. Balder spoke to Blumetti. “Dagaz, Nauthiz, Ansuz; these are the words that my father spoke into my ear whil I laid on my funeral pyre. Their meaning is the secret of the rebirth of our people and the Gods, and through me, the Gods will live again and our people will rise from the ashes after Ragnarok.”

For many years, Blumetti did not understand the meaning of what Balder said, but in time, after many years of meditation, he finally understood. He used the Runes to help him understand what the Gods were trying to make him understand. After many years, it suddenly came to him. He had discovered a new understanding of the old myths. Upon rereading them, his mind was flooded with a cascade of visions. He swore that he would try and put into words the truths he believes that the Gods had conveyed to him. And that is what he has tried to do. The Book of Balder Rising is a compilation of a new understanding of the Folk Faith of our people for the Twenty-first Century. It is meant to be a gift for our Folk as we embark on our journey into both a new century and a new millennium. What Blumetti has learned during his many years of mediation on the runes and the Norse myths, he has written down in this book so that others may know and understand. Whether you believe his story or not, whether you believe what is written in these pages, the choice is yours. Either way, may you always walk with the Gods. Hail Freyja! Hail Odin! Hail Balder!

The Book of Balder Rising

These are from www.balderrising.org that doesn’t work anymore. Here’s him talking about DNA..


Balder’s resurrection from Hel was planned by Odin. The Son of Odin died so that the Gods might live again. He is the instrument for their rebirth. Balder represents the cyclical structure of nature. Just as the Gods created a Golden Age when first they created the universe, so a new Golden Age will be ushered in by the return of Balder from Hel. But, this new age will only become real once the Gods and Goddesses are reborn, and that cannot happen unless we, the children of the Gods, make a conscious effort to call them back.

The three runes of regeneration that Odin whispered into Balder’s ear are Dagaz, Nauthiz and Ansuz. They are the secret for the rebirth of the Gods, and the magic spell Odin used to ensure that he and the Gods cheated Ragnarok and return in the new age. Balder was his instrument and into Balder’s ear did he speak the rune-spell.

Dagaz is the rune of day, or in this case, a new day. It represents light, polarity and synchronization. It is the union of two opposites, male and female that represents the two strips of the chromosome strands in the DNA chain. This rune is the dawning of a new day, and the birth of a new transcendent consciousness. It can manifest itself in a blinding flash of inspiration. Within it the individual is united with the cosmic forces of the universe represented as the Gods. Dagaz synthesizes opposites and makes them whole in a new union. This is the mysterious process of life and regeneration.

Nauthiz is the rune of necessity or the compulsion of fate. This rune represents the Norns and their destiny weaving powers. It is the rune of need and within it is the power to survive and thrive in difficult times. Nauthiz gives strength necessary to overcome the impossible. It provides the Folk with the urge to survive the present decay and decline of our world (Ragnarok). It is shaped like the bow-drill, which was used to ignite fire (inspiration). It drives the urge of growth and formation which is the biological process of birth and growth, which is the force of evolution. Within it is the process of friction and resistance, which drives the process of the progression of life. It is also the rune of growth of the folk.

Ansuz is the third rune. This is the rune of the Gods, and especially Odin. It has the power of transformation and inspiration. Being the rune of Odin, it unlocks the secrets of death, divine inspiration and wisdom. It is necessary to provide order and balance and to instill knowledge necessary for the folk to march into the future. It also represents the wisdom of the past and all that came before, which lies within our DNA or genes. The Ansuz rune provides inspired speech and hope for the future.

These three runes are the instrument of the rebirth of the Gods and the regeneration of our folk after Ragnarok. It represents the hope of the future. But it is up to us to decide if the Gods are to return.


Here is him telling the story of what Balder is up to after Ragnarok..


One day Balder, who resided in the Netherworld, was woken from his sleep by his loving wife, Nanna. All the realm of Hel seem to come alive with an excitement that was unnatural for Hel’s domain. All nine levels of the netherworld were arouse by news of a great caravan that was crossing the (river) and demanding entry into the gates that guard the netherworld.
"Why do you disturb me, dear wife?" Balder asked Nanna as he rose from his slumber.
"Because we have a messenger who beckons at our door," Nanna said. "He won’t leave, nor will he come in our house. He said that he has been told to seek you out and requests you attendance."
"Is he sent by Hel?" Balder asked.
"I think not," Nanna said. "I do not recognize who he is, for his cloak in a golden light that hides his identity."
Balder knew that this could only be of great importance. No messenger of Hel would be cloaked in such an aura. Balder rose and dressed and then went to greet their visitor. When he opened the door to his house, he saw standing in the door way a figure encased in a light, pure and bright.
"What is your name, and who sent you?’ Balder asked.
"I have been sent by one who flows and have been ordered to ask you one question," the visitor said.
"Then ask your question," Balder said.
"What did the All-Father say to his beloved son, Balder the Beautiful, when he laid on his funeral pyre?"
"Dagaz, Nauthiz and Ansuz are the charms for my resurrection," Balder said.
As he spoke those words, the light that encased the visitor declined until Balder could make out the figure of Hermond standing before. His fair face was both sad and happy at once.
"Dear brother," Hermond said. "It has been too long. I come as a herald and gift bearer for the All-Father, who even now rides at the head of a great procession of Gods and Goddesses on their way to this world. I was told to ask this question and give you these gifts."
Hermond then presented Balder with a spear, Odin’s spear and with Odin’s arm ring, Daupnir.
Balder took the gifts from Hermond and his heart was both glad and sad, for he knew that Ragnarok had come and the Gods had met their doom. But he also knew that this meant that his time had come, and his and Nanna’s time in Hel’s realm had come to an end. It was time for his resurrection.
Throughout Hel word has passed rapidly that the time for Balder’s departure had arrived. Balder and Nanna were brought before Hel, who had prepared a great feast.
"These preparations are not for you, Balder," she said in her mournful voice. "They were laid out as welcome for those who come with Odin to my realm. "I did not prepare a departure celebration for no one has ever left my domain, and I would not know how to say goodbye. The term is foreign to my lips and so you have my leave to go."
With Balder and Nanna was Hermond, as they walked to the gates of Hel’s domain. They found two, beautiful, white horses waiting for them. Their manes and hooves were gold and shined with a light that was warm and bright.
"Never have I see such lovely steeds," Nanna said as she caressed the horses lovingly.
"They are given to you by Odin himself, and their father is Sleipnir and their mother is Gold Mane. They are named Spiritflow and Fleshgrow. They will take you back to the world of the living and assist you in restoring order out of chaos."
"Come, my love," Balder said to his wife. "The cycle of life turns, and a new age waits to be born."
Balder and Nanna mounted their steed and road out of Hel. The way out was no longer guarded. The fierce hound, Garm, whose responsibility it was to keep the dead in Hel, had broken his chains and fled. Balder and his wife were free to leave. They passed over the bridge and crossed the river. The hooves of their steeds shined so bright as they raced away from the Netherworld that it blocked out all sight of the great host that had passed them on the road to Hel. So they did not see Odin leading the great procession of the Gods and Goddesses that rode to be welcomed by Hel’s embrace, and remained there until the time when Balder had done what he was born to do - call back the Gods and Goddesses from the realm of the dead.
Balder found the nine worlds in a state of chaos. The fires of Muspellheim had laid low and leveled all things, until it was impossible to distinguish one thing from another. The God of Regeneration knew that he had to undo the great leveling that Surtur had inflicted upon the Cosmos. Balder is the sun-rising and thus the great regenerative Life-Force. His resurrection from the Netherworld caused the Life-Force to renew itself, and fill the Cosmos once more.
Balder stood and watched and then raised his hand and a new sun was born. Nanna smiled as the warm, golden rays gently bathed her face. She too raised her hand and a new earth rose out of the waters of chaos. It was green and fruitful, with endless forests and pleasant meadows and golden fields. Clear, fresh rivers cris-crossed the landscape and emptied into the new blue oceans that surrounded the lands.
Standing on Idavoll’s Plains, where Asgard once stood, Balder heard a voice.
"Brother. Is that you?"
When Balder turned around, he saw his brother, Hodur, standing on the fields. He had followed Balder out of Hel, but he still could not see. Balder walked up to his brother and placed his hands over his eyes and smiled, bathing his brother in his golden rays.
"You are blind no more, dear Hodur," Balder said. "From this day forth, you will no longer be plagued by the darkness that has clouded your mind."
When he removed his hands from Hodur’s face, his once-blind brother opened his eyes and glazed upon the face of Balder the Beautiful. The light that shined from his face caused Hodur to lose control and he burst into tears for the treachery that he had committed against his brother. He collapsed in grief and joy before Balder. Balder held his hands and spoke to his brother.
"Let the past die with this new age," Balder said. "Now that you can look upon the truth, and never again will the treachery of the lying tongue lead you to commit fratricide. We are united by blood and our blood will prove to be a bond stronger than the strongest chains."

Then there is another one called New Edda which seems to be a softer or whatever to call it approach. I’ve read in it some and it seems like the back (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1594571139/ref=sib_dp_pop_fc/192-8466290-8026361?ie=UTF8&p=S001#) says..


Worked into the same narrative framework Snorri used in the original Edda, at the last time the holy stories were collected, it is presented as a reference useful for modern Reconsctructionists, such as Asatruar, though historians, folklorists, and those who simply enjoy mythology might find it entertaining and maybe even useful.

So here are two actual approaches. The Book of Balder Rising seems steeped in theophantic revelation, while New Edda seems like a bunch of stories put together with the fashion of Snorri, even using many sources of stories. I suppose both can have their advantages. So what do ya’ll think..??

Later,
-Lyfing

[YggsVinr]

My questions to you folks include: at what point nowadays, if ever, can a theophantic revelation transition transition from being UPG into Lore of the same order as the Völuspá or Hávamál? Alternatively, if the theophany was not singular in nature but was an SPG (shared personal gnosis) would it, in your opinion, be more likely to be able to become Lore?

I agree with Lyfing's statement here:


Theophanies could be looked at as a part of our inward heroic journey.

Also, if we look at the various methods of prophecy or communication with the dead (and so on) it appears that it was usually through the mound sitting (or similar technique) of a singular individual, and so such an experience is better seen as an experience that speaks to a person individually. In the Saga of Olaf Trygvasson we hear about Hallbjorn who falls asleep on a mound and is given the gift of poetry (reflected in the story of Caedmon) by the occupying draugr, or the Sturlungasaga wherein Egil Skallagrimsson comes back to assure that Snorri doesn't best him in poetry, and let us not forget Svipdagsmal where Svipdag requests aid from his deceased mother:

‘Awake, Gróa, good woman, awake!
At the door of the dead I wake thee:
Dost bear in mind how thou badest thy son
To thy grave-hill to go?’
‘What aileth now my only son,
What maketh heavy thy heart,
That thy mother thou callest under mould who lieth
And hath left the world of the living?’

or when Hervör requests aid from her deceased Berserk father, Angantyr at the burial mounds at Samsey:

"Wake, Angantyr,
wakes you Hervor,
Svafa's offspring,
your only daughter;
the keen-edged blade
from the barrow give me,
the sword dwarf-smithied
from Sigrlami"

and

"Why do you hail me,
Hervor, daughter?
To your doom you are faring
filled with evil!
Mad are you now,
your mind darkened,
when with wits wandering
you wake the dead.

...

"I tell you, Hervor -
hear my words out! -
what shall come to pass,
prince's daughter:
trust what I tell you,
Tyrfing, daughter,
shall be ruin and end
of all your family."

In Germanic lore these revelations or prophecies are typically self-induced. They appear in dreams or upon the visiting of a burial mound, and do not appear as externally willed as the Christian revelation does. As such, we can view theophany in Germanic religion as our relationship with our ancestors, and the way we experience that relationship. These experiences are highly personal.

I also believe that for the abovementioned transition into lore to occur, we need the same kind of situation/environment hypothetically needed for new gods to arise: an established heathen community or environment, and a few generations of heathen-born children. I think that, perhaps, today we are too eager to create a new lore for ourselves. However, I agree with what Aemma said when she cautioned against the forming of such experiences into dogma (I hope I'm not misquoting you here, Aemma).


While this type of thing was not as prominent in Europe, it was not wholly absent in the Classical age. Delphic Oracles such as Pythia can be seen as theophantic figures who exerted great influence on all around them. Similarly, the Norse Völuspá can be seen as a theophantic revelation of a seeres.

Can we really consider Völuspá to be an example of theophantic revelation (through its literal meaning as an appearance or showing of god), though? In the Germanic tradition it becomes evident that fate itself is beyond the reach of even the gods. The seeress prophesizes Ragnarök and there is nothing the gods can do to change their own fate or that of mankind. Völuspá is a revelation to Odin himself, and the Norns themselves are giants not of the race of gods even though they weave the death of the gods. The condition of the Germanic god really forces us to rethink our own understanding of what a “deity” constitutes or what the Christian tradition has forced us to believe a deity is.