Eurasia K6 "Italy-Greece" PCA plot!

[Sikeliot]

Credit to Petalpusher.

Observations..

1) The mainland Greeks form a cluster between Albania, Bulgaria, northern Italy, and southern Italy. One Peloponnesian actually plots north of the Bulgarian reference, but there is one outlier Peloponnesian falling into the southern Italian cluster.

2) One Campanian and one Sicilian from Ragusa each fall into the mainland Greek cluster.

3) Calabria, Catania, Messina, and Chios form their own cluster toward the bottom, drifting toward Cyprus.

4) The SOUTHERNMOST plotting mainland Greeks, plot with the NORTHERNMOST southern Italians.

5) One person from the Cyclades, CYCL6, is in the wrong place not because they should be, but because I entered a wrong number in the algorithm. That person is a mistake.

6) Within Italy, you can see that Trapani, Syracuse, and Ragusa shift toward Europe; Catania, Messina, Calabriaand Chios toward Cyprus/Levant, and the other Sicilians and islanders fill the gap.

LAK = Lakonia
PEL = Peloponnese
EUB = Euboea
SAM = Samos
CH = Chios
CRETE = Crete
CYCL = Cyclades
MES = Messina
PAL = Palermo
CAT = Catania
AGR = Agrigento
TRAP = Trapani
CAMP = Campania
CAL = Calabria


https://s10.postimg.io/rqlm0y8jb/SIKpca2.png


https://s9.postimg.io/g96bhc6nx/newplot_HR2.jpg

[Dick]

the Sikeliot cluster group

[Sikeliot]

Anyway this shows the gradient overall.

[Sikeliot]

No surprise that Albania and Epirus plot together.

[Journeyman26]

Cool! Nice work man. Would be interesting to see where I end up on it. I tend to plot in NW Greece or SE Italy.

[wvwvw]

I don't see any Campanians or other Southern Italians in there except Sicilians and 1 Campanian whom Sikeliot may have cherry picked. Where are the Campanians, Abruzzians etc? You should include more S.Italians (including South Tuscans) to get a more accurate picture.

[GoneWithTheWind]

I don't see any Campanians or other Southern Italians in there except Sicilians and 1 Campanian whom Sikeliot may have cherry picked. Where are the Campanians, Abruzzians etc?

They are Greeks

[Danaan]

No surprise that Albania and Epirus plot together.

Is it possible to add more samples from Epirus?

The sample is this, right?


Epirus:

Dodecad:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 33.47
2 Atlantic_Med 28.75
3 North_European 24.26
4 Southwest_Asian 7.68
5 Gedrosia 2.93
6 Northwest_African 1.91
7 East_Asian 1

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.87
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 7.46
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 9.04
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 10.59
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 11.06
6 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.33
7 TSI30 (Metspalu) 11.49
8 Romanians (Behar) 12.63
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.69
10 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.94
11 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 12.99
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 13.23
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 15.37
14 North_Italian (HGDP) 17.4
15 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.67
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.74
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 25.29
18 Cypriots (Behar) 26.14
19 Baleares (1000Genomes) 26.15
20 Galicia (1000Genomes) 27.27



PuntDna-L
# Population Percent
1 Anatolian_NF 40.82
2 European_HG 25.2
3 Caucasus_HG 25
4 Near_East 8.67
5 South_African_HG 0.16
6 Amerindian 0.13
7 Beringian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Albanian 1.97
2 Greek 2.33
3 Tuscan 3.46
4 Bulgarian 7.88
5 Sicilian_West 9.86
6 Ashkenazi_Jew 10.19
7 Italian_Bergamo 10.43
8 Sicilian_East 11.12
9 Romanian 12.89
10 Croatian 13.94
11 Spanish_Southwest 14.24
12 French 14.97
13 Spanish_Canaries 15.25
14 Belgian 15.85
15 Spanish_Northeast 16.24
16 German_South 17.47
17 Dutch_South 17.52
18 Turkish_Jew 17.52
19 Turkish_Aydin 17.58
20 Moroccan_Jew 17.96

It would be better if there were more samples because I don't know if it's representative (it quite probable that it is) and also there might be regional differences within Epirus. That's obviously true for Peloponnese, for example.
Also, samples of Central and other Italians would be interesting. How different they are from Southern Italians and those comparatively northern shifting Greeks?

I don't trust you, to be frank, but overall it seems interesting.

[catgeorge]

Is it possible to add more samples from Epirus?

The sample is this, right?


It would be better if there were more samples because I don't know if it's representative (it quite probable that it is) and also there might be regional differences within Epirus. That's obviously true for Peloponnese, for example.
Also, samples of Central and other Italians would be interesting. How different they are from Southern Italians and those comparatively northern shifting Greeks?

I don't trust you, to be frank, but overall it seems interesting.

Don't take these results as the be all and end all.

To obtain a clearer picture this is just one method. You need a proper study across all types of plotting methods to come to an aggregate and decent standard deviation.

What Sikeliot has done is present a decent method but to get a truer picture it takes more intensive investigation and studies.

[Sikeliot]

I don't see any Campanians or other Southern Italians in there except Sicilians and 1 Campanian whom Sikeliot may have cherry picked. Where are the Campanians, Abruzzians etc? You should include more S.Italians (including South Tuscans) to get a more accurate picture.

There are 3 Campanians on there. One of them is up near mainland Greeks, the other is far south. The other probably falls in the middle.

People from southern Tuscany and Lazio are central Italians.

[Sikeliot]

Is it possible to add more samples from Epirus?

The sample is this, right?


It would be better if there were more samples because I don't know if it's representative (it quite probable that it is) and also there might be regional differences within Epirus. That's obviously true for Peloponnese, for example.
Also, samples of Central and other Italians would be interesting. How different they are from Southern Italians and those comparatively northern shifting Greeks?

I don't trust you, to be frank, but overall it seems interesting.

These were all of the samples I have. I don't have central Italians, but they would definitely be north of the southern Italian cluster.

[Sikeliot]

The main point here was to show how mainland Greeks, far southern Italians, and Aegean islanders plot. I didn't intend on posting central Italians, and I do not have many Campanian samples to use.

[Sikeliot]

This doesn't really tell us anything new, I don't think. But I wonder what others make of it.

[Ylla]

They all seem pretty close.

[Petalpusher]

There s basically 3 different orientations for Greeks compared to S.Italians, Peloponnese are mesolithic shifted, Macedonians/Lakonians are steppe oriented and everything else is just more Caucasus shifted.

The "N.Caucasus" is not a good reference, the caucasus is simply on the right of this big cluster in reality, aligned with Armenia_Chalcolithic.

[Sikeliot]

There s basically 3 different orientations for Greeks compared to S.Italians, Peloponnese are mesolithic shifted, Macedonians/Lakonians are steppe oriented and everything else is just more Caucasus shifted.

The "N.Caucasus" is not a good reference, the caucasus is simply on the right of this big cluster in reality, aligned with Armenia_Chalcolithic.

Lakonia is the far southern Peloponnese but I labeled them separately. What about Epirus?

[Petalpusher]

Lakonia is the far southern Peloponnese but I labeled them separately. What about Epirus?

One sample is too little, similar to Albanians would be the logical thing. I never realized how southern Greeks are as northern if not more than the actual north of Greece, it's something more common than we imagine in many places of Europe, that are upside down genetically.

[Sikeliot]

One sample is too little, similar to Albanians would be the logical thing. I never realized how southern Greeks are as northern if not more than the actual north of Greece, it's something more common than we imagine in many places of Europe, that are upside down genetically.

Southern Greece accessible from West Asia only by sea... northern Greece was by land. This explains it. Also, the Peloponnese was thoroughly Slavicized too.

What do you make of the southern Italians?

[Petalpusher]

Southern Greece accessible from West Asia only by sea... northern Greece was by land. This explains it. Also, the Peloponnese was thoroughly Slavicized too.

What do you make of the southern Italians?

Still the same conclusion than Eurogenes, except now we can put a name on it with the new samples, it's either Levant_BA or something very similar, and more minor N.Africa. Most of S.Italy could be easily modeled as half N.Italy and half Levant BA, the reality is obviously more complex but there s definetly something from there in significant amount. Even if somehow they had been stuck as purely Anatolian farmers up until the Bronze age (it's very unlikely as Italy has been inhabited by HG's at all time, Villabruna to Remedello_CA proves it), they would be more like Tuscans with the sheer input they have from the steppe (they have R1's). On average S.Italians score 25% WHG, Anatolian farmers 6000 BC who didn't even put a foot yet in Europe score +35% WHG, that alone makes you wonder where's the catch. The farmers even have absorbed gradually a bit more of local WHG everywhere until the Bronze age, from there the steppe didn't add solely more WHG anymore but WHG+ANE, +CHG. It also applies to Greeks, maybe as much or more Levant_BA from when the empires collapsed, they just don't have the little N.African on top of it and a bit more steppe and/or WHG in general.

[Sikeliot]

Still the same conclusion than Eurogenes, except now we can put a name on it with the new samples, it's either Levant_BA or something very similar, and more minor N.Africa. Most of S.Italy could be easily modeled as half N.Italy and half Levant BA, the reality is obviously more complex but there s definetly something from there in significant amount. Even if somehow they had been stuck as purely Anatolian farmers up until the Bronze age (it's very unlikely as Italy has been inhabited by HG's at all time, Villabruna to Remedello_CA proves it), they would be more like Tuscans with the sheer input they have from the steppe (they have R1's). On average S.Italians score 25% WHG, Anatolian farmers 6000 BC who didn't even put a foot yet in Europe score +35% WHG, that alone makes you wonder where's the catch. The farmers even have absorbed gradually a bit more of local WHG everywhere until the Bronze age, from there the steppe didn't add solely more WHG anymore but WHG+ANE, +CHG. It also applies to Greeks, maybe as much or more Levant_BA from when the empires collapsed, they just don't have the little N.African on top of it and a bit more steppe and/or WHG in general.

My thought was that the flow of migration from the north into Greece is what shifts them further north. When you take out (most of) the islanders, you can see the rest of Greeks do not seem particularly shifted toward the Levant.

[Petalpusher]

My thought was that the flow of migration from the north into Greece is what shifts them further north. When you take out (most of) the islanders, you can see the rest of Greeks do not seem particularly shifted toward the Levant.

I m talking about a very large time scale, in the end Greeks are still somewhere between south and central Italians/Tuscans, we just expect countries in the south to plot...more south but it's never without reasons. Most European countries are between neolithic cultures and the steppe even the most distant ones from the steppes. Southwest Europe is between early neo+steppe, central europe between middle neo + steppe, northern europe late neo + steppe, etc... but below these very expected lines, something else happened, one way or another.

[Sikeliot]

I m talking about a very large time scale, in the end Greeks are still somewhere between south and central Italians/Tuscans, we just expect countries in the south to plot...more south but it's never without reasons. Most European countries are between neolithic cultures and the steppe even the most distant ones from the steppes. Southwest Europe is between early neo+steppe, central europe between middle neo + steppe, northern europe late neo + steppe, etc... but below these very expected lines, something else happened, one way or another.

If there was a mass influx of Near Easterners into Greece, the impact of their influence must have been smaller than that of subsequent Slavs and other northern influences, is what I would say.

Something similar can be seen in far western Sicily. Trapani was the center of Phoenician migration on the island, but they plot considerably north of many people in northeast Sicily. This means they may have once plotted further south than them, but absorbed enough northern influence to counterbalance it.

But southern Italy as a whole has been genetically intact for far longer than Greece, more unaltered by subsequent migrations, and I think this is most true for NE Sicily and Calabria.

[Petalpusher]

If there was a mass influx of Near Easterners into Greece, the impact of their influence must have been smaller than that of subsequent Slavs and other northern influences, is what I would say.

Something similar can be seen in far western Sicily. Trapani was the center of Phoenician migration on the island, but they plot considerably north of many people in northeast Sicily. This means they may have once plotted further south than them, but absorbed enough northern influence to counterbalance it.

But southern Italy as a whole has been genetically intact for far longer than Greece, more unaltered by subsequent migrations, and I think this is most true for NE Sicily and Calabria.


This is where i don't agree, what means intact and unaltered when today some get less mesolithic Euro than a neolithic farmer. If you mean some other influences were there before, maybe but again the sample from Remedello in N.Italy are pretty standard, they are just farmers+WHG, close to the vertical line which means nothing different was in Italy at that time and everything was going on just like in any other country in Europe. The definitive model for a modern European that has possibly nothing else than the known mesolithic, neolithic and steppe at any degree of each you like is that triangle, i say possibly because even in there you can still have it, it could just be compensated by more steppe or mesolithic (like for example Iberians), in the end from Sardinia to Norway to Russia you are still in the triangle.

https://s9.postimg.io/vhnm4k6a7/worldk6trig.jpg


The history of Europe is pretty simple, at the end of the mesolithic the farmers expand, replace the WHG/SHG while still absorbing a bit of them during all the neolithic, then comes the steppe and everybody ends up somewhere in between like probably 95% of the actual Europe's population, unsurprisingly.

Anything out of it has some influences "not in the book", again one way or another at any given time in known history since the mesolithic. Even compared to fully neolithics 8000 years ago at the doorbell of Europe, which was Greece actually so they were definetly like the farmers at some point, and we indeed have Greek neolithic samples clustering with the ancient Anatolians.

[Sikeliot]

Anything out of it has some influences "not in the book", again one way or another at any given time in known history since the mesolithic. Even compared to fully neolithics 8000 years ago at the doorbell of Europe, which was Greece actually so they were definetly like the farmers at some point, and we indeed have Greek neolithic samples clustering with the ancient Anatolians.

What I really meant (and may not have clarified) is that I think some of the Aegean islands, Calabria, and NE Sicily have almost no Germanic, Slavic, etc. input and have very low Indo-European in general, compared to other parts of Italy and Greece.

[Petalpusher]

What I really meant (and may not have clarified) is that I think some of the Aegean islands, Calabria, and NE Sicily have almost no Germanic, Slavic, etc. input and have very low Indo-European in general, compared to other parts of Italy and Greece.

I understood what you meant, even if they had 0% IE, Slavic, Germanic or anything, they would be something just under Sardinia, because Sardinia is nearly 0% of all this too. Here they rather fit as Sardinians + Levantines in the more extreme cases.

[Sikeliot]

I understood what you meant, even if they had 0% IE, Slavic, Germanic or anything, they would be something just under Sardinia, because Sardinia is nearly 0% of all this too. Here they rather fit as Sardinians + Levantines in the more extreme cases.

How much Slavic ancestry would you estimate for different parts of Greece -- where has the most, and least do you think?

And what about Sicily, where if anywhere might be entirely devoid of Norman, Lombard, etc?

[Petalpusher]

How much Slavic ancestry would you estimate for different parts of Greece -- where has the most, and least do you think?

And what about Sicily, where if anywhere might be entirely devoid of Norman, Lombard, etc?

You would have to define what is Slavic, is it Belorussia or a Balkan country, there's quite a difference. Lakonia and Macedonia appears to have more, but again comparing to S.Italy. Maybe something equating 15-20% of Yamnaya and 10-15% for Sicily on average. It's difficult to tell if it's really bronze age IE or more recent input from more steppe influenced populations than them but they both have IE for sure, Greek do score decent EHG, contrary to Sardinians for example. About Sicily, it would be the most distant ones from a Normandy/Lombardy cline, at first sight Catania has the least, Palermo the most.

[Alessio]

And you provided most kit numbers?

[Sikeliot]

You would have to define what is Slavic, is it Belorussia or a Balkan country, there's quite a difference. Lakonia and Macedonia appears to have more, but again comparing to S.Italy. Maybe something equating 15-20% of Yamnaya and 10-15% for Sicily on average. It's difficult to tell if it's really bronze age IE or more recent input from more steppe influenced populations than them but they both have IE for sure, Greek do score decent EHG, contrary to Sardinians for example. About Sicily, it would be the most distant ones from a Normandy/Lombardy cline, at first sight Catania has the least, Palermo the most.

There is also someone from Ragusa plotting actually with mainland Greeks.

The question is if Sicilians have more Levantine than Greeks, or just less Indo-European. What I mean is are they more recently mixed with MENAs or just have less Northern shifting components.

[Danaan]

You would have to define what is Slavic, is it Belorussia or a Balkan country, there's quite a difference. Lakonia and Macedonia appears to have more, but again comparing to S.Italy. Maybe something equating 15-20% of Yamnaya and 10-15% for Sicily on average. It's difficult to tell if it's really bronze age IE or more recent input from more steppe influenced populations than them but they both have IE for sure, Greek do score decent EHG, contrary to Sardinians for example. About Sicily, it would be the most distant ones from a Normandy/Lombardy cline, at first sight Catania has the least, Palermo the most.

Concerning Laconia, the samples may be misleading. 'Sclavenes' (Ezeritai, Melingoi) settled on the slopes of mount Taygetos in the 7th century (or even earlier in my opinion). That's South-Central Peloponnese or mostly NW Laconia

I am sure other results will be different.

How Tsakonians plot would be interesting.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Peloponnese_Middle_Ages_map-en.svg/1280px-Peloponnese_Middle_Ages_map-en.svg.png

[Sikeliot]

Concerning Laconia, the samples may be misleading. 'Sclavenes' (Ezeritai, Melingoi) settled on the slopes of mount Taygetos in the 7th century (or even earlier in my opinion). That's South-Central Peloponnese or mostly NW Laconia


I wonder if the lack of Anatolian/Pontic Greeks in that region may be why those Laconian results shift more north. Surely a lot of people in northern Greece have small influences from the population exchange.

[catgeorge]

I wonder if the lack of Anatolian/Pontic Greeks in that region may be why those Laconian results shift more north. Surely a lot of people in northern Greece have small influences from the population exchange.

I'd say majority have inter married by now. Indigenous Greeks in the area do not feel racially different to the Anatolian Greeks. The swarthiness of Anatolian Greeks in comparison to North Greeks is overdone and exaggerated if you look at it logically people need to travel through the area - I see them as Ionian Greeks and part of the proto Greek race. They look slightly different but not indifferent to say Bavarians and North Germans.

[catgeorge]

These are the offspring of Capaddocian Greeks that came to Greece

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Cappadocian_Greek_children.JPG

Greeks from Smyrna where majority migrated in Thessaloniki are even more "european" if that's the appropriate term.

[Danaan]

I wonder if the lack of Anatolian/Pontic Greeks in that region may be why those Laconian results shift more north. Surely a lot of people in northern Greece have small influences from the population exchange.

Anatolian and Pontic Greeks can be quite diverse. My maternal grandfather who was from Smyrna had Western Cretan and Cycladic ancestry most likely and he was a little darker than average like some people in Chania, for example. But some Anatolian Greeks would have more, let's say, Thracian-like ancestry. Those from Constantinople can also theoretically have medieval Latin, Gothic, 'Scythian' but also Armenian and god knows what else admixture.

The Slavs in Peloponnese were hellenized early, so their historical presence is not at all obvious. The 'Byzantines' lost control only temporarily.

[Sikeliot]

The Slavs in Peloponnese were hellenized early, so their historical presence is not at all obvious. The 'Byzantines' lost control only temporarily.

I notice some Peloponnesians seem to have more Slavic DNA (thus further from Sicily/Crete on Oracles) and others have less. I am not saying Cretans and Sicilians are a good proxy for pre-Slavic mainlanders, but any Slavic input in Greece will indeed pull them away from those aforementioned groups.

[Sikeliot]

What I notice is that Aegean islanders are highly variable, at least as much as southern Italians. The results I have from Samos plot all the way up near the mainland, while people from Chios are right alongside the most exotic Sicilians.

Cyclades are various, and the people from Kalymnos and Tilos in the Dodecanese, despite being located south of Chios, are plotting north of it!

[poiuytrewq0987]

I notice some Peloponnesians seem to have more Slavic DNA (thus further from Sicily/Crete on Oracles) and others have less. I am not saying Cretans and Sicilians are a good proxy for pre-Slavic mainlanders, but any Slavic input in Greece will indeed pull them away from those aforementioned groups.

Oh, I remember our discussion about whether Tracy Spiridakos looked Slavic. I found a Tracy doppelganger from Russia, an Olympic swimmer, so I guess you're right that she does look Slavic. :D

Tracy Spiridakos:

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/images/wennpic/tracy-spiridakos-nbc-universal-press-tour-01.jpg

Yulia Efimova:

http://sharedmedia.grahamdigital.com/photo/2016/08/15/Silver%20medalist%20Yulia%20Efimova.jpg_7733935_ve r1.0_1280_720.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Oh, I remember our discussion about whether Tracy Spiridakos looked Slavic. I found a Tracy doppelganger from Russia, an Olympic swimmer, so I guess you're right that she does look Slavic. :D

She is Laconian too, interestingly.

That photo doesn't even do justice to how Russian she actually looks. Try this:

http://cdn.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/tracy-spiridakos-revolution1.jpg