Are Iberians really genetically South Europeans, or are they a buffer zone between South and West?

[Myanthropologies]

Spaniards seem to genetically cluster between central European populations and Greeks, South Italians, etc. Georgraphically they are certainly South European, and they look it often as well, but I have noticed that a lot also look central/western european as well. They genetically seem to be a buffer zone between Greeks, South Italians, and the French, Germans, British, etc.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

South European like Greeks,Italians...

[Myanthropologies]

South European like Greeks,Italians...

I think Iberians are only geographically southern Europeans. Genetically and phenotypically they seem like they're in between English people and Greeks.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

I think Iberians are only geographically southern Europeans. Genetically and phenotypically they seem like they're in between English people and Greeks.

in the same way that Italians are a between German and Greeks and Greeks are a between Slavic and Italians or vice versa

[Myanthropologies]

in the same way that Italians are a between German and Greeks and Greeks are a between Slavic and Italians or vice versa

Greeks are between South Slavs and South Italians genetically, not russian slavs. And North Italians are still a bit more southern shifted than the Spanish and Portuguese. I guess Southern Europeans are very genetically and phenotypically diverse, which makes sense because it's very large.

[Autrigón]

I think Iberians are only geographically southern Europeans. Genetically and phenotypically they seem like they're in between English people and Greeks.eeem no... according with the hundreds of genetic maps that I have seen on this forum spaniards scores between french and north italians

[Myanthropologies]

eeem no... according with the hundreds of genetic maps that I have seen on this forum spaniards scores between french and north italians

Yeah, they cluster between the French and North Italians, but I said that North Italians are bit more south shifted genetically than Iberians are, though not by much. North Italians themselves are almost genetically in that buffer zone I'm speaking of as well. My point is, "Southern Europeans" seems way too broad of a category genetically and phenotypically. All Europeans are genetically close, but Spanish and Portuguese people seem to be specifically in between the British and Greeks, South Italians, and are closer to the British than to the Maltese genetically. Phenotypically, they look both southern and western european. I've noticed that a lot of Iberians look French, German, and English.

[CrazyDaisy]

I wonder how genetically different modern day Iberians are from conquistadores.

[Potentia]

I think that they are a buffer, yeah.

Genetically, Iberians are more Northern than North Italians, and more Southern than French. As was previously said.

For example, here's a Spaniard's K15. Notice the Italian, French, and English.

https://i.gyazo.com/a5ff1c04c615daf126948dfb377bfe66.png

[Potentia]

I wonder how genetically different modern day Iberians are from conquistadores.

Not much different.

The reason most Latin Americans are somewhat genetically different to modern Iberians is because of the Sephardic Ancestry and Moorish Ancestry. As well as the rest of our ancestry.

[CrazyDaisy]

Not much different.

The reason most Latin Americans are somewhat genetically different to modern Iberians is because of the Sephardic Ancestry and Moorish Ancestry. As well as the rest of our ancestry.

Well I have seen several Iberians that look more Latin American than British. Maybe they are part Sephardic/Moorish.

[Bell Beaker]

123132132321231 thread about Iberians.....

Genetics can be funny but I like more to look at the Phenotypes, it quite represents us well.

Portuguese People from Porto.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cprvaXTg1Bk

French People from Lyon.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3sftD94eaY

Brits from Manchester (not as Anglo Saxons, as Norwich is for example).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt4AXNjvJOc

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Between French and North Italians, even more North than North Italians, but still more southern than French (autosomally).

[Sebastianus Rex]

Southwestern Europeans, what the OP doubt ?

[Bell Beaker]

Southwestern Europeans, what the OP doubt ?

Pretty much.


But I don't see myself and most Iberians passing in France and British Lands.

Even if we are supposed to be genetically close. Perhaps in Wales or in the Celtic fringes of Ireland there are More Iberian types....

[Sebastianus Rex]

I wonder how genetically different modern day Iberians are from conquistadores.

Why should they be different ?


Not much different.

The reason most Latin Americans are somewhat genetically different to modern Iberians is because of the Sephardic Ancestry and Moorish Ancestry. As well as the rest of our ancestry.

The reason why most Latin Americans are different to modern Iberians is because they are mostly mixed with amerindians and/or blacks. Latin Americans of pure Iberian stock are genetically the same as Iberians.

[Abdelnour]

Well I have seen several Iberians that look more Latin American than British. Maybe they are part Sephardic/Moorish.

I think it could be genes from the paleo era.

61857

[Sebastianus Rex]

Pretty much.


But I don't see myself and most Iberians passing in France and British Lands.

For the UK perhaps 20-25% but no more than that in my opinion. Somewhat more for France.


Even if we are supposed to be genetically close. Perhaps in Wales or in the Celtic fringes of Ireland there are More Iberian types....

Perhaps, but not that much more from my experience, in general the populations are easily distinguishable. Iberians definitively overlap more with French (France is large and diverse) and Italians than with any British/Irish population.

[Bell Beaker]

For the UK perhaps 20-25% but no more than that in my opinion. Somewhat more for France.



Perhaps, but not that much more from my experience, in general the populations are easily distinguishable. Iberians definitively overlap more with French (France is large and diverse) and Italians than with any British/Irish population.

The French I think they are supposed to look like the Ancient Bretons of the pre-Anglo Saxon era.

But if we exclude Perpignan or South West French (which has a lot of Catalan influence) I think it's more or less the same as the UK.

Aquitaine it's probably a Crypto-Basque region, many people might have some degree of Basque ancestry, it would be interesting to see a nice shot of crowds from Aquitaine, perhaps there are Baskids there.

Northern French for example should be almost equal to Southern English, specially when we compare Cornwall with Bretagne.

Savoy people (SE France) are basicaly the same as Piedmontese and Vale D'Aosta I supose.

[Sikeliot]

Somewhat intermediate. They lack the strongly East Med, Armenoid, etc. type elements of southern Italy, but Iberians can more or less pass in much of the north and center of the country, though with less Dinaric influence. Those with more of an Atlantic European look can pass in the UK and Ireland.

Most can pass in France, but Germanic input is higher in France. A significant number of Atlanto-Med types can also pass in Greece. Berid types can pass in Sardinia and, sometimes, North Africa.

[alnortedelsur]

I wonder how genetically different modern day Iberians are from conquistadores.

They are still genetically the same.

[Bell Beaker]

Somewhat intermediate. They lack the strongly East Med, Armenoid, etc. type elements of southern Italy, but Iberians can more or less pass in much of the north and center of the country, though with less Dinaric influence. Those with more of an Atlantic European look can pass in the UK and Ireland.

Most can pass in France, but Germanic input is higher in France. A significant number of Atlanto-Med types can also pass in Greece. Berid types can pass in Sardinia and, sometimes, North Africa.

Berid is not a North African type, how many times shall I say that to you?

[Sebastianus Rex]

The French I think they are supposed to look like the Ancient Bretons of the pre-Anglo Saxon era.

But if we exclude Perpignan or South West French (which has a lot of Catalan influence) I think it's more or less the same as the UK.

Aquitaine it's probably a Crypto-Basque region, many people might have some degree of Basque ancestry, it would be interesting to see a nice shot of crowds from Aquitaine, perhaps there are Baskids there.

Northern French for example should be almost equal to Southern English, specially when we compare Cornwall with Bretagne.

Savoy people (SE France) are basicaly the same as Piedmontese and Vale D'Aosta I supose.

No, all over France you find abondantly Mediterranean and Alpine types, that is not the case for the UK at all where those are a minority and the darker types are usually Atlantid or Paleos.

France population (regardless of the region) is no way as northern looking as the British, not even close. I know well France and most French regions.

[Bell Beaker]

No, all over France you find abondantly Mediterranean and Alpine types, that is not the case for the UK at all where those are a minority and the darker types are usually Atlantid or Paleos.

France population (regardless of the region) is no way as northern looking as the British, not even close. I know well France and most French regions.

I just don't see Portuguese people passing as fine as in Perpignan as in Normandy or Calais or Bretagne....

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Pretty much.


But I don't see myself and most Iberians passing in France and British Lands.

Even if we are supposed to be genetically close. Perhaps in Wales or in the Celtic fringes of Ireland there are More Iberian types....

Isn't that interesting? I always wondered why this was.

Irish and Welsh do have mostly R-L21 Y-DNA which, besides them is mostly seen in Basques and Spaniards. It is a sub-group of something you could call Celtiberian, I forget it's number but it is a branch of R1b that is mostly found in Iberia, and in Ireland and Wales via it's sub-group R-L21.

I've heard Y-DNA is somewhat important. Autosomal and Y-DNA probably both influence things, tbh. I have heard Y-DNA influences brain function, for example, but if it does, who is to say autosomal DNA does not? It probably does. In fact people mostly look what they are autosomally. Like there are people with the surname Japon in Spain who descend from a Samurai that went there in the 1600s. They probably have Japanese Y-DNA and perhaps they think a bit like the Japanese because of it..but they mostly look like normal Spaniards. It leads me to believe phenotype is more an autosomally-dominated area.

With that said, it still does not explain the chunk of weird darker Irish/Welsh types. It could just be Neolithic remnants, and let us not pretend these kinds do not exist elsewhere in Northern Europe.

[Myanthropologies]

Well I'm not saying that Iberians look like British people. But most I've seen pass in France, and I've seen many many of them that resemble Germans and English people. Even if the majority don't, a large minority of them still resemble Germans and English people. This year my university has Spaniard foreign exchange kids and you wouldn't be able to tell that they're different from the Germanic and Celtic American whites until they opened their mouth. There seems to be a noticeable amount with fair hair and eyes as well.

Imo they look slightly closer to mainland Greeks and North Italians than to Germans probably, but they definitely look closer to Germans than to South Italians.

[Bell Beaker]

Isn't that interesting? I always wondered why this was.

Irish and Welsh do have mostly R-L21 Y-DNA which, besides them is mostly seen in Basques and Spaniards. It is a sub-group of something you could call Celtiberian, I forget it's number but it is a branch of R1b that is mostly found in Iberia, and in Ireland and Wales via it's sub-group R-L21.

I've heard Y-DNA is somewhat important. Autosomal and Y-DNA probably both influence things, tbh. I have heard Y-DNA influences brain function, for example, but if it does, who is to say autosomal DNA does not? It probably does. In fact people mostly look what they are autosomally. Like there are people with the surname Japon in Spain who descend from a Samurai that went there in the 1600s. They probably have Japanese Y-DNA and perhaps they think a bit like the Japanese because of it..but they mostly look like normal Spaniards. It leads me to believe phenotype is more an autosomally-dominated area.

With that said, it still does not explain the chunk of weird darker Irish/Welsh types. It could just be Neolithic remnants, and let us not pretend these kinds do not exist elsewhere in Northern Europe.

Let us say that the Dark peoples in Wales or Ireland are quite exaggerated, a Welshman as more Nordid types than a let's say Northern Frenchman.

But there are some more Mediterranean/Swarthy types in those areas, probably because they weren't as affected by Anglo Saxons as England or Scotland.

But even with that, the overlap between Irish/Welsh and the English or Scottish is huge and much larger than a Southern Italian with a Northern Italian or a Northern German with a Southern German.

[Dick]

Irish and Welsh do have mostly R-L21 Y-DNA which, besides them is mostly seen in Basques and Spaniards. It is a sub-group of something you could call Celtiberian, I forget it's number but it is a branch of R1b that is mostly found in Iberia, and in Ireland and Wales via it's sub-group R-L21.

I've heard Y-DNA is somewhat important. Autosomal and Y-DNA probably both influence things, tbh. I have heard Y-DNA influences brain function, for example

No wonder I1 WASPs are smarter than R1 irish potato farmers

[Sebastianus Rex]

I just don't see Portuguese people passing as fine as in Perpignan as in Normandy or Calais or Bretagne....

Still no comparison with Britain, even in northern France you see plenty of Mediterranean and Alpine types.

[Bell Beaker]

Still no comparison with Britain, even in northern France you see plenty of Mediterranean and Alpine types.

Alpinid is not among the top 5 phenotypes of Iberia I think.

Alpinid input in France is very Important. Among the top 3.....

[alnortedelsur]

Alpinid is not among the top 5 phenotypes of Iberia I think.

Alpinid input in France is very Important. Among the top 3.....

Alpinid input in Iberians is important too (in most cases mixed with other types). Maybe not as much as in France, but still, more important than what many people assume.

[Bell Beaker]

Alpinid input in Iberians is important too (in most cases mixed with other types). Maybe not as much as in France, but still, more important than what many people assume.

Alpinids, Pure Alpinids have their core region in France, Switzerland, North Italy, West and South Germany, Austria and perhaps the Benelux (More Wallon Belgium than Netherlands....).

[alnortedelsur]

Alpinids, Pure Alpinids have their core region in France, Switzerland, North Italy, West and South Germany, Austria and perhaps the Benelux (More Wallon Belgium than Netherlands....).

I don't disagree with those areas being the epicenter of Alpinids. I'm just saying that Alpinid traits can also be frequently found in Iberians, (most of the times not in their purest state, but mixed in with other traits).

[Thunder_shock]

If you remove the SSA in North Africans Iberians would be equidistant between them and Britons/Scandinavians.

[Lluna Plena]

Well I'm not saying that Iberians look like British people. But most I've seen pass in France, and I've seen many many of them that resemble Germans and English people. Even if the majority don't, a large minority of them still resemble Germans and English people. This year my university has Spaniard foreign exchange kids and you wouldn't be able to tell that they're different from the Germanic and Celtic American whites until they opened their mouth. There seems to be a noticeable amount with fair hair and eyes as well.

Imo they look slightly closer to mainland Greeks and North Italians than to Germans probably, but they definitely look closer to Germans than to South Italians.

Hi. Well, that has always been the great misconception about IBERIA (olive skinned, dark eyes...), but the reality is very different. Iberia is characterized by the wide variety of phenotypes. A sample:

61862
Cristina Castaño

61863
Mireia Belmonte

61864
Vanesa Romero

61865
Nuria Roca

61866
Marian Aguilera

61867
Lorena Bernal

I put just pictures of women (cause I'm a woman), but of course is the same with men. lol

[Myanthropologies]

Hi. Well, that has always been the great misconception about IBERIA (olive skinned, dark eyes...), but the reality is very different. Iberia is characterized by the wide variety of phenotypes. A sample:

61862
Cristina Castaño

61863
Mireia Belmonte

61864
Vanesa Romero

61865
Nuria Roca

61866
Marian Aguilera

61867
Lorena Bernal

I put just pictures of women (cause I'm a woman), but of course is the same with men. lol

Lol well I've always known that Spain wasn't majority dark and olive. I have seen that stereotype though and it is very misleading imo (funnily enough it was pushed by a south italian on here). Spain is my favorite soccer team, and I've always wanted to visit it one day.

But yeah, people like ctwentysevenj would feel really stupid after seeing some of the Spaniard foreign exchange kids at my college. I bet you he would think they're just white americans until they speak. There is a misconception that if you're southern or eastern, that means you're darker. And while in many cases, that's true, in many cases it's also not. People keep forgetting that Spain is also in WESTERN Europe in addition to being in Southern Europe. In my opinion most Spanish people pass way better in France than in even Greece.

[caviezel]

the problem with Spain is that they don't have enough light eyes, you need to have at least 30% of light eyes to be outside of the South belt.

[Ibericus]

If you remove the SSA in North Africans Iberians would be equidistant between them and Britons/Scandinavians.
Not at all. North Africans without SSA would be like Arabs, since they have a lot of Southwest-Asian.

[EL_BARBARO]

the problem with Spain is that they don't have enough light eyes, you need to have at least 30% of light eyes to be outside of the South belt.


And who on hell is interested in "being outside" of the South Belt?

[Berahthraban]

Iberians are much like North Italians and far Southern French, and component wise pretty much on par with Bosnians, Croatians and Serbs (ignoring west/east just "woggynes"), which of course is a fairly big difference compared to South Italians and Greeks, who are the closest you get to outliers in the region.

[Dick]

I wonder how genetically different modern day Iberians are from conquistadores.huge difference

[Ülev]

I2a1 - Indigenous Iberians

https://i2a1tree.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/20131213-115026.jpg

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

the problem with Spain is that they don't have enough light eyes, you need to have at least 30% of light eyes to be outside of the South belt.

I don't know what you mean by outside the "South belt" but if you mean what Sikeliot means, than they already shift outside of the "south belt" plot more northern, than Italy. Even Andalucians plot northern of Northern Italians.

[caviezel]

I don't know what you mean by outside the "South belt" but if you mean what Sikeliot means, than they already shift outside of the "south belt" plot more northern, than Italy. Even Andalucians plot northern of Northern Italians.
I'm talking of light eyes, I don't know what Sikeliot mean honestly.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

I'm talking of light eyes, I don't know what Sikeliot mean honestly.

I was saying what Sikeliot means when compare far north mainland Greece in genetics to Greek islanders or south Italian-Sicilians.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Alpinid input in Iberians is important too (in most cases mixed with other types). Maybe not as much as in France, but still, more important than what many people assume.

Yes. Many of the familyof my father's side who are predominantly Iberian look very Alpinid in phenotype or part.
Like them:
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-0/p206x206/14287663_171720339902140_426619309_n.jpg?oh=458e15 8d591c0750ad7ccc76bb63ddb5&oe=57D32A79
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/14249001_171720466568794_1627509126_n.jpg?oh=f3651 8938e735a8e83e98367f73a37bd&oe=57D33838
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/14249069_171720986568742_1319949615_n.gif?oh=8bf9d 90ca374825324a6095ffe156b09&oe=57D2182D

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I2a1 - Indigenous Iberians

https://i2a1tree.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/20131213-115026.jpg

I2a1 is not indigenous in iberia.

You can see its more prevelant in sardinia. And the hot spot is actually in france in the mainland right above spain boarder

[Ülev]

I2a1 is not indigenous in iberia.

You can see its more prevelant in sardinia. And the hot spot is actually in france in the mainland right above spain boarder

or just survived on the island more?

[Percivalle]

Yeah, they cluster between the French and North Italians, but I said that North Italians are bit more south shifted genetically than Iberians are, though not by much. North Italians themselves are almost genetically in that buffer zone I'm speaking of as well. My point is, "Southern Europeans" seems way too broad of a category genetically and phenotypically. All Europeans are genetically close, but Spanish and Portuguese people seem to be specifically in between the British and Greeks, South Italians, and are closer to the British than to the Maltese genetically. Phenotypically, they look both southern and western european. I've noticed that a lot of Iberians look French, German, and English.

Iberians are more western-north western than North Italians, not north. In a world-weighted PCA north of North Italians there are the Austrians not the Iberians. North-Italians are more eastern and very often more north-eastern shifted than Iberians. The sample North Italian used in the PCA is based on north-western Italians who are closer to Iberians but always a bit more eastern-shifted, while north-eastern Italians tend to have even more EHG. On an individual basis there are many exceptions to the rule but overall Iberians have more WHG but less of other types of HG than North Italians. On the other hand, a PCA chart includes a large number of SNPs, the majority of these SNPs do not control the phenotype, because the phenotype is produced by very few genes.


https://s16.postimg.io/5f6na54kz/newplot_9.png

https://s17.postimg.io/by0mzfs99/newplot_16.png

https://s16.postimg.io/3z7o9w7yt/neurok62.png

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

or just survived on the island more?
Its sardinia. Why would it survive in the mainland more if sardinia was primarily Italian territory for most of its time?

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

I2a1 is not indigenous in iberia.

You can see its more prevelant in sardinia. And the hot spot is actually in france in the mainland right above spain boarder

It still indigenous in Iberia if you ask me. It's found among a isolated pre-indo European people like the Basques.

[Cristiano viejo]

I wonder how genetically different modern day Iberians are from conquistadores.
Why should all of them be different? are you indeed crazy or what?


Well I have seen several Iberians that look more Latin American than British. Maybe they are part Sephardic/Moorish.
Yes, definitely you are crazy..


Hi. Well, that has always been the great misconception about IBERIA (olive skinned, dark eyes...), but the reality is very different. Iberia is characterized by the wide variety of phenotypes. A sample:

61862
Cristina Castaño

61863
Mireia Belmonte

61864
Vanesa Romero

61865
Nuria Roca

61866
Marian Aguilera

61867
Lorena Bernal

I put just pictures of women (cause I'm a woman), but of course is the same with men. lol


You can say SPAIN, nothing happens.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

It still indigenous in Iberia if you ask me. It's found among a isolated pre-indo European people like the Basques.

It is in basque region on the mainland. But then again its too predominant in sardinia to be only basque. Y full says its 2000 years old which is weird though.

Edit nvm I missread its 20,000-18000

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.10/tree/I2a1/


formed 21300 ybp, TMRCA 18400 ybp

this is before Ice age actually

Originating from sardinia. Basques are probably offshoots off of sardinians in I2a1 lineage

[Autrigón]

huge differenceTell me why, surprise me please!

[Ibericus]

Iberians are more western-north western than North Italians, not north. In a world-weighted PCA north of North Italians there are the Austrians not the Iberians. North-Italians are more eastern and very often more north-eastern shifted than Iberians. The sample North Italian used in the PCA is based on north-western Italians who are closer to Iberians but always a bit more eastern-shifted, while north-eastern Italians tend to have even more EHG. On an individual basis there are many exceptions to the rule but overall Iberians have more WHG but less of other types of HG than North Italians. On the other hand, a PCA chart includes a large number of SNPs, the majority of these SNPs do not control the phenotype, because the phenotype is produced by very few genes.


https://s16.postimg.io/5f6na54kz/newplot_9.png

https://s17.postimg.io/by0mzfs99/newplot_16.png

https://s16.postimg.io/3z7o9w7yt/neurok62.png
Yes, but this PCA lacks northern spaniards, who are more basque-shifted, and look where are Basques.

[Kamal900]

The Spaniards cluster with Northeren Italians and the French for the most part. Nothing unusual.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/European-middle-neolithic-en.svg/1024px-European-middle-neolithic-en.svg.png

Probably Descended from Cardium Pottery Culture. I2a1 is clearly related to that. Basque in I2a1 will be descended from that

[Styrian Mujo]

Iberians are THE south Euros. Italians and Greeks (and other Balkan nations) are Afro-Asiatic and Caucasian admixed. Let the shitstrom commence.

[Ülev]

Its sardinia. Why would it survive in the mainland more if sardinia was primarily Italian territory for most of its time?



Here it is:

Dominant Y-DNA by region at the onset of the Neolithization of Europe:

Region: dominant "indigeneous" Y-DNA haplogroups

1. Western and Central Europe: I2a, I1, I2c, C1a2
2. European part of Russia: R1a, R1b, Q1a
3. Caucasus region (Georgia): J1b, J2a
4. Western Asia*: G2, E1, J2, R2, T, G1, H2, L1, F3

*Samples from Anatolia, from the Levant and from Iran.

The most mysterious - due to their scarcity in aDNA so far - are J1 and N1c.

We have J1b in a hunter-gatherer from Georgia, but then there is a long "gap" and the next relevant sample - J1a dated to 2500-1950 BC - is from the Levant (Ain Ghazal, Early Bronze Age). When it comes to N1c the oldest sample in Europe, dated to 2500 BC, is from the region of Smolensk.


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187714-The-quot-Big-Picture-quot-of-Y-DNA-distribution-ca-8000-5000-BC

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187714-The-quot-Big-Picture-quot-of-Y-DNA-distribution-ca-8000-5000-BC

its likely Cardium culture haplogroup

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

[Ibericus]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/European-middle-neolithic-en.svg/1024px-European-middle-neolithic-en.svg.png

Probably Descended from Cardium Pottery Culture. I2a1 is clearly related to that. Basque in I2a1 will be descended from that
What are you saying, I2 is a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer haplogroup.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

What are you saying, I2 is a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer haplogroup.

it might be Y full says I2a1 is over 10,000 years old

[Antimage]

purely southern european country/ethnicity.

[Antimage]

Well I'm not saying that Iberians look like British people. But most I've seen pass in France, and I've seen many many of them that resemble Germans and English people. Even if the majority don't, a large minority of them still resemble Germans and English people. This year my university has Spaniard foreign exchange kids and you wouldn't be able to tell that they're different from the Germanic and Celtic American whites until they opened their mouth. There seems to be a noticeable amount with fair hair and eyes as well.

Imo they look slightly closer to mainland Greeks and North Italians than to Germans probably, but they definitely look closer to Germans than to South Italians.

last yeat at my university i met groups of spaniard and german exchange students and it was obvious they were different nationalities.

[Myanthropologies]

last yeat at my university i met groups of spaniard and german exchange students and it was obvious they were different nationalities.

Well I think it depends what country you live in. I live in the US, and the Spaniard kids here phenotypically mostly fit in with the Anglo and Germanic white americans, many even dress like us Americans lol. I helped one of them that was lost find a building her class was in the other day, and I would have had no idea she wasn't american.

[Ibericus]

it might be Y full says I2a1 is over 10,000 years old
it is. We have many samples of hunter-gatherers and they are mostly I2.

[Percivalle]

Yes, but this PCA lacks northern spaniards, who are more basque-shifted, and look where are Basques.

West-north west.

4 different PCA charts using HGDP samples for Basque, French, North Italians (NItal), Orcadians, Russians, Sardinians and Tuscans in 4 different calculators.

https://s17.postimg.org/ewmd85x1r/PCA_hgdp_K12ancientworld.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/50la8ir9r/PCA_hgdp_eurasia_k10.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/yh0waxxn3/PCA_hgdp_euro_k6_iran_neo.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/arbgm8z9r/PCA_HGDP_EUTest.jpg

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

it is. We have many samples of hunter-gatherers and they are mostly I2.

make sense. I2a1 is older than the Ice age when it ends

[AphroditeWorshiper]

I don't understand the thumb down of Cristiano, but... ok,ok

Cristiano, Iberians are Northern Europeans, happy?

[Thunder_shock]

Not at all. North Africans without SSA would be like Arabs, since they have a lot of Southwest-Asian.
No, more like Sicilians.

[Dick]

Tell me why, surprise me please!
Idk I'm just hear to learn better english

[Antimage]

Well I think it depends what country you live in. I live in the US, and the Spaniard kids here phenotypically mostly fit in with the Anglo and Germanic white americans, many even dress like us Americans lol. I helped one of them that was lost find a building her class was in the other day, and I would have had no idea she wasn't american.

I'm from Hungary. The spaniards I saw here looked very different from germans. But it could person on the individual, i guess. But then again i doubt germans and spaniards can pass for one another in groups. Atypically northern looking iberians look british rather than german imo.

Passing for a white american doesn't mean much to me. I have been told I could pass for white canadian and white american (by people from those countries) and I don't have any western european ancestry. This just tell me that white americans are mish mash of many different things and are phenotypically diverse. It could be different in rural regions. But i ithink in large cities where people are more mixed even lighter and atypically european looking mena's are perceived as white american.


Btw: I see, many people are pointing out that spaniards are genetically more northern than italians because spaniards are above italians are on PCA plots. Maybe they are more northern genetically(a quite blurry concept imo) but keep in mind genetics don't necessarily correlate with pigmentation.
Using this logic, lithuanians are lighter and more nordic than the nordics themselves, but that obviously not true -their WHG and ANE pulls them north of scandos but they are not lighter. Same with russians(esp. north russians)

[Ibericus]

No, more like Sicilians.
No, because Sicilians have a lot of Caucasus/West-Asian, whereas north-africans have very low of that. In any case, it's just fantasy games, because they are 20% SSA.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Iberians are THE south Euros. Italians and Greeks (and other Balkan nations) are Afro-Asiatic and Caucasian admixed. Let the shitstrom commence.

Bump, bump it up, lol. Let it rain.

[Lluna Plena]

Lol well I've always known that Spain wasn't majority dark and olive. I have seen that stereotype though and it is very misleading imo (funnily enough it was pushed by a south italian on here). Spain is my favorite soccer team, and I've always wanted to visit it one day.

But yeah, people like ctwentysevenj would feel really stupid after seeing some of the Spaniard foreign exchange kids at my college. I bet you he would think they're just white americans until they speak. There is a misconception that if you're southern or eastern, that means you're darker. And while in many cases, that's true, in many cases it's also not. People keep forgetting that Spain is also in WESTERN Europe in addition to being in Southern Europe. In my opinion most Spanish people pass way better in France than in even Greece.

:):thumb001:
Yeah. Look. There is a lipdub video recorded in Vic (UVIC-Barcelona) about six years ago. There is another UVIC (university) in Canada...since the day they uploaded the video, and still now, people from Canada think it's their school!! (read the comments below the vid.). Greetings.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeGDRSWB46w

[alnortedelsur]

:):thumb001:
Yeah. Look. There is a lipdub video recorded in Vic (UVIC-Barcelona) about six years ago. There is another UVIC (university) in Canada...since the day they uploaded the video, and still now, people from Canada think it's their school!! (read the comments below the vid.). Greetings.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeGDRSWB46w

I particularly like this one (from Barcelona too) :):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcBO7f06zJQ

[Green]

South European like Greeks,Italians...

lol

[Green]

Spaniards seem to genetically cluster between central European populations and Greeks, South Italians, etc. Georgraphically they are certainly South European, and they look it often as well, but I have noticed that a lot also look central/western european as well. They genetically seem to be a buffer zone between Greeks, South Italians, and the French, Germans, British, etc.



Does that answer your question?

my own

Eurogenes k15

http://i67.tinypic.com/206o46d.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/aw52l1.jpg

[Grab the Gauge]

Spaniards aren't southern European, they're just Western European. Which brings me to my next point: there is no such thing as a Southern European. The Greeks are too easterly and weird to be European at all. The Balkanites are totally distinct from the Romance Europeans, and the Albanians are even more distinctive still. That really only leaves Italy as the candidate for the "South Euro" title, yet the northern half of the country is Central European, if anything. Basically there is no Southern Europe, it's just a figment of our imagination. We should all just stop talking about it because it's ridiculous to even try to divide a lateral continent like Europe like that. Another thing I would like to say is that there's no such thing as Northwestern Europe. There is nothing but a bunch of water in the only location where Northwestern Europe could possibly be.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

lol

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