Based on this chart, which Sicilians would you say have the most, and least Greek ancestry?

[Sikeliot]

In my opinion:

MOST: Ragusa
LEAST: Catania

https://s10.postimg.io/rqlm0y8jb/SIKpca2.png
https://s9.postimg.io/g96bhc6nx/newplot_HR2.jpg

[The Blade]

You seem to be right.

[Sikeliot]

You seem to be right.

This poster on Forumbiodiversity named "SamuelLevy" said that Catania has the most and this chart shows it... I literally think he is blind or intentionally misreading it.

[The Blade]

This poster on Forumbiodiversity named "SamuelLevy" said that Catania has the most and this chart shows it... I literally think he is blind or intentionally misreading it.
I guess he is misreading it. Otherwise, such opinion would be a paradox.

[Sikeliot]

Do others agree with my interpretation?

[Smitty]

I can't read the second, but I'll go off the first, as far as I understand it.

Ragusa doesn't strike me as the most Greek necessarily. There are only two plot points, and the Greek-leaning one is cancelled out by the other, no? Assuming Greek means pulled to the top-left, I would say Palermo and Trapani have the most. If it's pulled to the bottom-right, I would say Messina and Catania, which would better fit history.

[Sikeliot]

I can't read the second, but I'll go off the first, as far as I understand it.

Ragusa doesn't strike me as the most Greek necessarily. There are only two plot points, and the Greek-leaning one is cancelled out by the other, no? Assuming Greek means pulled to the top-left, I would say Palermo and Trapani have the most. If it's pulled to the bottom-right, I would say Messina and Catania, which would better fit history.

There are two clusters of Greeks -- the mainland (which is toward the top left) and the most outlying islands (the bottom right). The Sicilian cluster spans the entire range from intersecting with the southernmost plotting mainlanders, all the way through the island cluster, showing Sicily fits among the most southern/eastern plotting Greeks, but no one is quite as northward plotting as the most northward mainlanders.

Ragusa and Syracuse, going by history, should in fact be the most Greek. But only one of the people from Ragusa is up near the mainlanders. The other is down near the islanders.

[Smitty]

There are two clusters of Greeks -- the mainland (which is toward the top left) and the most outlying islands (the bottom right). The Sicilian cluster spans the entire range from intersecting with the southernmost plotting mainlanders, all the way through the island cluster, showing Sicily fits among the most southern/eastern plotting Greeks, but no one is quite as northward plotting as the most northward mainlanders.

Ragusa and Syracuse, going by history, should in fact be the most Greek. But only one of the people from Ragusa is up near the mainlanders. The other is down near the islanders.

Then, if we're assuming ancient Greeks are best represented by present-day mainlanders, don't Palermo and Trapani indicate the most Greek ancestry (just going by this chart)?

And is that a stray Peloponnesian plotting all the way over with the islanders?

[Sikeliot]

Then, if we're assuming ancient Greeks are best represented by present-day mainlanders, don't Palermo and Trapani indicate the most Greek ancestry (just going by this chart)?

And is that a stray Peloponnesian plotting all the way over with the islanders?

Yes, to both.

My guess is that the upper part of the Sicilian and Greek clusters have the most North European ancestry (from Lombards, Normans, Slavs, etc) and those toward the bottom have the most Near Eastern affinity.

What is interesting is only some of the Palermitans are plotting up north. Others are far south and one is even pulling toward the Bronze Age Levant and Moroccan Jews. Trapani, on the other hand, is a largely northward-plotting part of Sicily.

Also interesting that the Dodecanese islanders are further north than most eastern Sicilians, but Chios is at the bottom of the cluster.

[Smitty]

Yes, to both.

My guess is that the upper part of the Sicilian and Greek clusters have the most North European ancestry (from Lombards, Normans, Slavs, etc) and those toward the bottom have the most Near Eastern affinity.

What is interesting is only some of the Palermitans are plotting up north. Others are far south and one is even pulling toward the Bronze Age Levant and Moroccan Jews. Trapani, on the other hand, is a largely northward-plotting part of Sicily.

Also interesting that the Dodecanese islanders are further north than most eastern Sicilians, but Chios is at the bottom of the cluster.

Well, Palermo is the biggest city and the capital, so greater diversity makes sense. And to clarify your position, you do not believe the affinity between Sicilians and Greek islanders is due to Greek ancestry, but rather to shared ancestry.

[Sikeliot]

Well, Palermo is the biggest city and the capital, so greater diversity makes sense. And to clarify your position, you do not believe the affinity between Sicilians and Greek islanders is due to Greek ancestry, but rather to shared ancestry.

I believe both groups share Greek ancestry, but Greek ancestry from the mainland (which is the reason both Sicily and the Aegean spoke Greek, considered themselves Greek, through Hellenization) was a northward-shifting element imposed on a predominantly pre-Greek Neolithic base. As such, I believe the Aegean islands and Sicily were of similar stock to begin with.

Also keep in mind, ancient Greeks settled mainly on the east coast, but during the Byzantine conquest and Middle Ages, it's likely the west of the island, which was much busier and more traveled, received more Greek input than the east would have.

Those islands with the least mainland Greek input, and the parts of Sicily with the least Norman, Lombard, etc. are those toward the bottom right of the chart.

With a larger sample size, I expect to see more Sicilians (not just that one Palermitan and one Calabrese) drifting toward the Moroccan Jews as well.

[Sikeliot]

Ragusa doesn't strike me as the most Greek necessarily.

To me, they are the closest to the mainlanders, or at least that one person is. I think the other person from Ragusa is more islander-like.

Historically, that region did have a lot of Greek influence:

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/kristinakillgrove/files/2015/07/Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects-en.svg_.png

[Smitty]

To me, they are the closest to the mainlanders, or at least that one person is. I think the other person from Ragusa is more islander-like.

Historically, that region did have a lot of Greek influence:



Agreed. But two people don't make a great case by themselves. And as the other person indicated the opposite, it doesn't seem any conclusion can be drawn. That's all I was getting at.

[Sikeliot]

Agreed. But two people don't make a great case by themselves. And as the other person indicated the opposite, it doesn't seem any conclusion can be drawn. That's all I was getting at.

Ah ok. That makes sense.

I will say that it is interesting how diverse the Palermitans are.

[Smitty]

Ah ok. That makes sense.

I will say that it is interesting how diverse the Palermitans are.

Metropolitan area. Makes sense, no?

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

You seem to be right.

You said it.

[Sikeliot]

Metropolitan area. Makes sense, no?

I wonder if the people there descend from all over Sicily.

[Smitty]

I wonder if the people there descend from all over Sicily.

I would guess that's the case for a fair few of them.