The Norman Conquest in southern Italy

[Aemma]

Ok so in the UK England section we've got a discussion going on about those blasted Normans (;)) and I quoted a passage from a book in one of my most recent posts suggesting that southern Italy seems to have a completely different historical memory of her own conquering by the Normans. This author states that Sicilians especially seem to be proud of their Norman heritage.

So, needless to say, I have some questions for my Italian friends here:

Firstly, do you think that this author's interpretation correct?

Secondly, if he is correct in his interpretation (that Italians remember the Normans in a more favourable light), why do you suppose it does have a more positive recall? What have been the contributing factors for such?

Thanking you all in advance for your theories and hypotheses and facts and figures! :D

Cheers!...Aemma, la normande :)

[Aemma]

:o

Nobody???? 40 views and not one single response. Only one thank you from my friend Soten?

I am disappoint. :(

[Electronic God-Man]

Can you quote that passage in here? I'll think about it. Of course, I'm not an eye-tie.

[Osweo]

I remember reading here in a post by an Italian member, that when they say 'the Kingdom', it's usually understood that they mean that of the Normans, despite all that's happened before or since.

As we said elsewhere, the fact that the Normans provided some stability after the struggles here between locals, Goths, Lombards, Franks, Saracens and Greeks, probably has a lot to do with this 'nostalgia', if that's the right word. And the return to Christian rule after years of Moorish arrogance will have been relevant. Perhaps also the Normans' skill at imposing order and efficiency played its role too. I speculate.

[Aemma]

Can you quote that passage in here? I'll think about it. Of course, I'm not an eye-tie.

Ok here tis Soten. :) And again, thank you!


And yet, although William the Conqueror is glorified in Normandy, he has left a bad reputation behind him in England. Of course, many English historians agree in recognizing the fundamental contribution of the Normans to English civilization. But most English people today identify more easily with the conquered Anglo-Saxons than with the Norman conquerors, even though the latter are also their ancestors....

Historical myths do not always survive. The great hero of the Norman adventure is not recognized as such by the inhabitants of the land he conquered. The opposite could be said of southern Italy, another region of Western Europe subjugated at the same period by other Normans. In this area, which has known many invaders, the Normans are the only ones who still find favour with modern Italians, especially Sicilians....

From François Neveux's The Normans: The Conquests That Changed the Face of Europe

[Electronic God-Man]

But most English people today identify more easily with the conquered Anglo-Saxons than with the Norman conquerors, even though the latter are also their ancestors....

Actually it seems understandable to me. How many Normans came over? Are there any good estimates? At any rate, they were the elite and wouldn't have contributed nearly as much to the ancestry of the modern English as the Anglo-Saxons did. I'm an American of English ancestry and even I get the sense that the Anglo-Saxons were the "real" English speaking their Old English at the base of society while the Normans were a Frenchified foreign ruling class.


In this area, which has known many invaders, the Normans are the only ones who still find favour with modern Italians, especially Sicilians....

Who were the other conquerors of Southern Italy and Sicily?

Ancient Greeks - This happened so far back and the populations mixed so thoroughly that most Sicilians see those Greeks that settled their island as simply their own ancestors, not conquerors. And as the Sicilians themselves so wonderfully put it, "Una faccia, una razza." (One face, one race.)

Muslim Arabs - Simply put, they're Muslim and Arab. A Catholic Italian would never identify too strongly with that occupation of Southern Italy/Sicily. Actually, at the time things may not have been so bad, but modern Italians don't look back on it so fondly. This occupation was more solidly foreign.

Normans - If the Sicilians do, in fact, favor the Normans I would imagine it is mostly because they fought off the Arabs...and they themselves were solidly Western European and helped return Sicily (and Italy) to the Western sphere, rather than the Muslim or Byzantine world.

French/Spanish - I figure these are too tied up with the later period of Italian history and as enemies during the push for unification.

So if they had to pick a conquering power as a favorite the choice is obvious.

[Loddfafner]

It all depends on how you pronounce "cicero ceci". A certain red-bearded man sleeping under a mountain and due to awaken any day now might also be somewhat relevant.

[Electronic God-Man]

A certain red-bearded man sleeping under a mountain and due to awaken any day now might also be somewhat relevant.


He (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor#Frederick_Barbaros sa_in_fiction) is soooo late. I guess those ravens are still flying.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Barbarossa01.jpg

[Curtis24]

have any of you read the Godfather(I'm sure you know the movie, but the book's even better)? There is an extended passage where the author describes the formation of the mafia under Norman rule. Essentially, the old legend goes that the Normans were repressive, exploitaive, and insensitive to the needs of Sicilian peasants. As a result, the mafia formed as an underground organization to provide social services - including law enforcement -for native Sicilians. With a special emphasis on punishing those who served as lackeys or informers to the Normans.

For better or worse, the Normans seem to have had a great effect on modern Sicily.

As an aside, I'd also recommend reading Mario Puzo's "The Sicilian". He talks more about Siciliy's history - how different ethnicities(Greeks, Italians, Normans, Arabs, Jews, etc.) on the island painted the windows or something of their house different colors etc. But don't tell anyone their house has an Arab or Jewish color, or you might get shot. There were other interesting things in it, but its been a long time since I read it.

[Rhobot]

Normans (especially the earlier kings such as Roger II) did oversee a golden age in Sicily/Southern Italy (amazing art and architecture especially, due to their patronage of Byzantine and Arab artists).

http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/leightonarabhall/images/ziza-4.jpg

http://www.buten.net/max/sicily/mosaics/LaMartoranaRoger0511.jpg

Would agree that Sicilians don't see the Greeks as conquerors- the ancient Greeks are their ancestors, modern Greeks are sort of cousins.

[San Galgano]

Ok so in the UK England section we've got a discussion going on about those blasted Normans (;)) and I quoted a passage from a book in one of my most recent posts suggesting that southern Italy seems to have a completely different historical memory of her own conquering by the Normans. This author states that Sicilians especially seem to be proud of their Norman heritage.

So, needless to say, I have some questions for my Italian friends here:

Firstly, do you think that this author's interpretation correct?

Secondly, if he is correct in his interpretation (that Italians remember the Normans in a more favourable light), why do you suppose it does have a more positive recall? What have been the contributing factors for such?

Thanking you all in advance for your theories and hypotheses and facts and figures! :D

Cheers!...Aemma, la normande :)

First of all thanks for this nice thread!:thumb001:


I would say Sicilians have a complete different interpretation from the rest of Italians. For the different conquerors they have had they use at time one of them at their own advantage.
Many time sicilians don't even feel themselves italians but only sicilians.
The rest of southern Italians don't feel(for what i know)a strong link with normans, but that because they are not seen as liberators in the historical memory, from saracens(which are not particularly seen as a bad thing in Sicily since the isle became a cultural center and one of the most rich place in Europe).
But i would say as a whole Sicilians have a rainbow memory regarding their history, they don't revere a conqueror in particular, but whoever made the history of the isle a thing to remember in the history books, and Normans have large and important part in the history of the isle. Following this concept they basically feel a divine ancestry with Greeks more than other people who settled in Sicily. With them Sicily became the Magna Grecia, and managed to overclass(outclass-thanks Osweo ;O)) the same Greece itself.

[San Galgano]

It all depends on how you pronounce "cicero ceci". A certain red-bearded man sleeping under a mountain and due to awaken any day now might also be somewhat relevant.

It could seem impossible to many here, but during the sicilian vespers(a revolt of sicilians against french Angioines), the french soldiers hunted by sicilians who asked for revenge, had to confuse themselves between sicilian people to escape lynching, and the only way to understand if they were french or sicilians was to ask them to pronounce "ciciri"(chickpeas) which they could not pronounce in the sicilian way of course.

[Albion]

Firstly, do you think that this author's interpretation correct?

Yes, but I'm not going to bother explaining why since 1) I'm in a lazy mood and 2) I did that in the other thread. :D


How many Normans came over?

Are there any good estimates?

A few thousand, about 10,000 tops I'd say.


At any rate, they were the elite and wouldn't have contributed nearly as much to the ancestry of the modern English as the Anglo-Saxons did.

Correct.


the Anglo-Saxons were the "real" English speaking their Old English at the base of society while the Normans were a Frenchified foreign ruling class.

Were in the early middle ages, but the Anglo-Normans were assimilated and the two cultures sort of fused into what we see today.

[Osweo]

"ciciri"(chickpeas)

A classic shibboleth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth). :thumb001:

The term originates from the Hebrew word "shibbóleth" (שִׁבֹּלֶת), which literally means the part of a plant containing grains, such as an ear of corn or a stalk of grain[3] or, in different contexts, "stream, torrent".[4][5] It derives from an account in the Hebrew Bible, in which pronunciation of this word was used to distinguish Ephraimites, whose dialect lacked a /ʃ/ sound (as in shoe), from Gileadites whose dialect did include such a sound.

In the Book of Judges, chapter 12, after the inhabitants of Gilead inflicted a military defeat upon the tribe of Ephraim (around 1370–1070 BC), the surviving Ephraimites tried to cross the Jordan River back into their home territory and the Gileadites secured the river's fords to stop them. In order to identify and kill these refugees, the Gileadites put each refugee to a simple test:

“ Gilead then cut Ephraim off from the fords of the Jordan, and whenever Ephraimite fugitives said, 'Let me cross,' the men of Gilead would ask, 'Are you an Ephraimite?' If he said, 'No,' they then said, 'Very well, say "Shibboleth" (שיבולת).' If anyone said, "Sibboleth" (סיבולת), because he could not pronounce it, then they would seize him and kill him by the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand Ephraimites fell on this occasion.


How should you say it correctly, by the way? /tʃi:tʃi:Ri:/ ? :p

[San Galgano]

A classic shibboleth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth). :thumb001:


How should you say it correctly, by the way? /tʃi:tʃi:Ri:/ ? :p

ahah
mate if you lived in Italy and learned proper italian(the florentine) you would have problem to speak sicilian dialect as many non-sicilian italians have.

I really don't know how to spell it in sicilian, i think it is a bit as if a Londoner tried to speak redneck dialects. :p

[Rhobot]

Sicilian is almost a separate language' it is very different from standard Italian or any dialect spoken north of Naples. Lots of Greek and Arabic loan words, as well as Spanish and French ones.

[Libertas]

Leon-Robert Menager in his study "Inventaire des familles normandes et franques emigrees en Italie meridionale et en Sicilie (XIe-XIIe siecles) gives a total figure of 385 immigrant aristocrats in the 11th and 12th centuries into southern Italy and Sicily.

Most were from Normandy (over two-thirds) but men from elsewhere in northern France and Flanders were also represented.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Clearly Sicily needs to be included in the Megali Idea. :evil

[Foxy]

Surely we have a good memory of Normans: they didn't come here to kill but to save us from the Arabs, they treated us good and thank to them it started the Italian literature (Sicilian School).

Sicilian school:
The Sicilian School was a small community of Sicilian, and to a lesser extent, mainland Italian poets gathered around Frederick II, most of them belonging to his court, the Magna Curia. Headed by Giacomo da Lentini, they produced more than three-hundred poems of courtly love between 1230 and 1266, the experiment being continued after Frederick's death by his son, Manfredi. This school included Enzio, king of Sardinia, Pier delle Vigne, Inghilfredi, Stefano Protonotaro, Guido and Odo delle Colonne, Rinaldo d'Aquino, Giacomino Pugliese, Giacomo da Lentini, Arrigo Testa, Mazzeo Ricco, Perceval Doria, and Frederick II himself.

While in England the Norman invasion rapresented the return to a dark age, in Italy this led to a reflourish of the literature and art. Friedrick II of Svevia is one of the most beloved historical figures of Middle Age here in Italy. (I myself am a fan of him.)


Anyway there is only a dark face in this thing: Normans established in southern Italy a strong feudal system, while in the North - free - they had the opportunity to develop the "free cities" (comuni) and came out of the Middle Age far before the South and part of the centre (Abruzzo and Molise). The regions of central Italy belonging to the State of the Church were feudal too and faced similar problems.

[Foxy]

Anyway not only Sicily was occupied by Normans.

http://www.comune.aversa.ce.it/storiaturismo/immagini/normanni3.jpg

Corradino of Svevia (Friedrick II's grandson) was killed in Abruzzo.
The small pink area in Campania (I don't think is a coincidence) has also a strong percentage of blonde people, though it is so close to Neaples (Greek) where blonde hair are very rare.

[Osweo]

Sicilian school:
Interesting stuff! :thumb001:

I just wanted to make a brief comment here, though;

While in England the Norman invasion rapresented the return to a dark age, in Italy this led to a reflourish of the literature and art. .
That's not really the case. There was a complete replacement of high culture. The Norman version wasn't overall 'lower' or 'worse' than the native English one it uprooted, it was just starkly different in style, focus and background.

I cannot deny that the Normans were more impressive masons than the English, having spent a few years of my life in the shadow of this;
http://www.freefoto.com/images/1008/06/1008_06_3---Durham-Cathedral_web.jpg?&k=Durham+Cathedral
http://www.ship-of-fools.com/mystery/2007/media/durham_cathedral.jpg
http://www.paradoxplace.com/Photo%20Pages/UK/Britain_Yorkshire_and_North/Durham_Cathedral/Images/900/Durham-Location-SR.jpg
http://www.channel4.com/4homes/images/mb/Channel4/4homes/architecture/our-favourite-buildings/george-clarke-s-favourite-buildings/Durham-Cathedral-credit-robert-scarth-lg--gt_full_width_landscape.jpg
http://imagecache6.allposters.com/LRG/21/2177/3ZUCD00Z.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Sfec-durham-cathedral-2007-263.JPG

Of course, the problem is that the Normans destroyed our older cathedrals to build their own. :mad::( All that we have that survives is from the more rustic parish churches, so it's not easy to imagine what we have lost. :cry2

[San Galgano]

The regions of central Italy belonging to the State of the Church were feudal too and faced similar problems.

No, no... Tuscany never been under the state of Church, it passed from the longobard dukedom of Tuscia to commune and then Grandukedom of Tuscany.:D

[Foxy]

No, no... Tuscany never been under the state of Church, it passed from the longobard dukedom of Tuscia to commune and then Grandukedom of Tuscany.:D

Indeed I wrote "the regions of central Italy belonging to the State of the Church", not the whole central Italy :D Tuscany is central Italy but was indipendent. Abruzzo is central too and was under the Normans. The other stayed with the Church. :thumbs up

[San Galgano]

Indeed I wrote "the regions of central Italy belonging to the State of the Church", not the whole central Italy :D Tuscany is central Italy but was indipendent. Abruzzo is central too and was under the Normans. The other stayed with the Church. :thumbs up


I think if Tuscany had been under the papal state we would never have had Renaissance.

[San Galgano]

I would like to add a little thing.
Normans gave a great contribute to free Sicily but Pisa(Tuscany:D)-who was an important sea republic-crushed the saracen fleet allowing Norman to enter the isle.

Tuscans have always been a pain for everybody.:D

[Peasant]

http://www.freefoto.com/images/1008/06/1008_06_3---Durham-Cathedral_web.jpg?&k=Durham+Cathedral

I love that Cathedral. And the little Norman Chapel (http://www.dur.ac.uk/castle.chapel/history.php) in Durham Castle.

[Aemma]

Leon-Robert Menager in his study "Inventaire des familles normandes et franques emigrees en Italie meridionale et en Sicilie (XIe-XIIe siecles) gives a total figure of 385 immigrant aristocrats in the 11th and 12th centuries into southern Italy and Sicily.

Most were from Normandy (over two-thirds) but men from elsewhere in northern France and Flanders were also represented.

Nice info Libertas! Thank you! Would you happen to have a link for the above-cited work?

[Libertas]

Nice info Libertas! Thank you! Would you happen to have a link for the above-cited work?

I doubt if there is an internet link.
Menager's survey comes from "Roberto il Guiscard e il suo tempo (Fonti e studi del Corpus membranarum italicarum, Centro di studi normanno-suevi, Universita' degli studi di Bari, published in Rome in 1975.

[Libertas]

Aemma, I've found an internet link for you.
For the 275 specifically NORMAN families out of the 385 their origins and a lot of good material (in French) are under this link:
http://sedlouviers.pagesperso-orange.fr/confetextes/Normands/normands.htm

[Aemma]

Aemma, I've found an internet link for you.
For the 275 specifically NORMAN families out of the 385 their origins and a lot of good material (in French) are under this link:
http://sedlouviers.pagesperso-orange.fr/confetextes/Normands/normands.htm

Actually, what a fantastic find Libertas, I cannot thank you enough! :)

Briefly for those of you whose French is a tad rusty I'll give the main points as to the reasons why the Normans came to southern Italy, as per this excellent article:


1.1 Pourquoi les Normands sont-ils venus en Italie et d’où venaient-ils ?

Why did the Normans come to Italy and where did they come from?

Reasons given below:

Reason #1: The population's high mobility during the Medieval Period. Apparently people just travelled quite a bit during this time period. (Much like today I suppose!) Princes, bishops, merchants, adventuresome pilgrims, vagabonds, brigands and all manner of men-for-hire travelled freely not only within the Duchy of Normandy but without as well. And not to be forgotten are the numerous monks that lived in the various abbeys who travelled widely. Many abbeys in Calabria were restored by Robert Guiscard.


-La mobilité médiévale : Pierre BOUET dans « les Normands en Méditerranée » nous rappelle que le monde médiéval n’est nullement un monde de sédentaires. Tout le monde, à l’intérieur du duché comme à l’extérieur des frontières n’hésite pas à entreprendre des voyages longs et difficiles. Les princes, les évêques inspectant leur patrimoine et leur diocèse, les marchands, sans oublier les innombrables pèlerins aventuriers, vagabonds, brigands ou loueurs temporaires de bras ou de savoir faire. La conscience du temps (il n’appartient qu’à Dieu) est de toute façon fort éloignée de celle qui prévaut dans notre société industrielle productiviste.

Il faut aussi relever les allées et venues incessantes des moines de l’abbaye de St Evroult, dans l’Orne, dont l’abbé Robert de Grandmesnil confiera la restauration de plusieurs abbayes de Calabre à Robert Guiscard.


Reason #2: Pilgrimages, especially between the spiritual sanctuaries of Mont St Michel and Monte Gargano--both devotional places of the Archangel St. Michael. The grotto at Monte Gargano is an especially important pilgrimage stopping place for those Normans going to the Holy Lands in Jerusalem. Norman knights are regularly solicited to defend Christian lands against the 'infidels'.


-Les pèlerinages : Dès le 9ème siècle, les sanctuaires du MONT SAINT MICHEL et du MONTE GARGANO en APULIE ont été dédiés tous deux à l’ARCHANGE SAINT MICHEL, chef de la brigade céleste et qu’on invoque pour se protéger du brigandage, et se sont trouvés associés dans une relation privilégiée . En l’an 1000, un va et vient de pèlerins unit les deux hauts lieux et dans les deux sens .La grotte du MONT GARGAN constitue l’étape obligée des normands avant ou après la visite des lieux saints de JERUSALEM sur un chemin jalonné par Salerne, Rome et Reims . En outre, depuis que le duché, libéré de ses attaches scandinaves s’est tourné vers l’occident, les chevaliers normands sont régulièrement sollicités pour défendre les terres chrétiennes contre les « infidèles ».

Reason #3: The right to exile. The Duke of Normandy had the right to banish whomever he saw fit if they were a threat to his sovereignty. This was the plight of one Osmond Drangot, his brother Rainolf Drangot (who later became Pirince of Aversa), and their friend Raoul Todinius aka Raoul the First of Tosny.


-Le droit d’exil: Pratique relevant du droit scandinave, le droit d’exil permet au DUC, en cas de crise politique, de complot, de violation de la règle ou d’opposition à son autorité, de condamner à l’exil le « contrevenant » et de confisquer ses biens.
C’est cette mésaventure qui arrive dans les années 1020 à OSMOND DRANGOT, d’assez haut lignage ( les QUADRELLIS d’AVESNES en BRAY), banni par RICHARD II pour s’être fait justice lui-même en assassinant le séducteur de sa fille. RICHARD exile d’ailleurs l’assassin mais aussi son frère (l’inquiétant RAINOLF DRANGOT qui deviendra prince d’AVERSA) et ses amis dont un certain RAOUL TODINIUS ou de TOËNI qui n’est autre que notre turbulent voisin RAOUL 1er de TOSNY .

Reason #4: Mercenaries. There appeared ot be a high demand for such and the Normans skilled in cavalry are readily sought as excellent technicians of this new form of combat. To make oneself for hire could prove very lucrative for some.


-Le « mercenariat »: Au XIe siècle, les armées ne sont ni nationales ni permanentes, l’appel au marché des mercenaires garantit à le fois contre une collusion possible entre mécontents et conscrits et une « volatilité » des armées. En outre, dans l’éventail des spécialités offertes, ces Normands qui maîtrisent l’usage de la cavalerie lourde, sont extrêmement recherchés comme techniciens d’une forme nouvelle du combat . Vendre ses bras dans ces conditions pouvait ainsi se révéler extrêmement lucratif ...


Reason #5: The overpopulation and lack of land in the Duchy of Normandy itself. With the advent of rights of succession going to the first born, numerous younger brothers of the families of Norman nobility found themselves without. Many saw a good opportunity to seek their fortune.


-La surpopulation du duché ou le manque de terre: L’introduction du droit d’aînesse dans la transmission des terres a privé de fiefs de nombreux cadets de la petite noblesse normande. Néanmoins, des terres inexploitées sont encore disponibles dans le sud du bocage et en Basse Normandie. En vérité, la situation de l’Italie méridionale apporte la possibilité d’une fortune autrement rapide et c’est l’attrait de ce nouvel eldorado qui semble le plus déterminant.

Comme l’écrit Lucien MUSSET « le facteur décisif du flux d’émigration normande est la découverte sur place que l’Italie du sud était une terre riche et mal défendue où des fortunes rapides étaient à portée de main.. » pour qui saurait saisir l’occasion et où la possibilité était offerte à de simples chevaliers d’accéder au faite des honneurs.

Again, great find Libertas. And thank you. :)