Why does greece have far more slavic DNA than albania?

[catgeorge]

Change the Yugoslav to Balkan and maybe you are on to something. They look plain Balkan.

Georgians

http://www.casertafocus.net/caserta/images/banda-georgiani.gif

http://www.lavocedimanduria.it/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Schermata-08-2456897-alle-12.52.48.png

http://vocedistrada.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/georgiani.jpg

[KrashNick]

Georgians



Greece
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P2Z8jJu-rh0/UN9qXg_JO1I/AAAAAAAAGkY/InXidIDeGEE/s1600/IMG_1137.JPG

Kosovo
https://s3.postimg.org/4c4bzdnoj/PERFAQESUESJA_E_KOSOVE_S_U18_VESPREM_20131.jpg

guess which team would pass better in Georgia...

[Hellenas]

Greece
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P2Z8jJu-rh0/UN9qXg_JO1I/AAAAAAAAGkY/InXidIDeGEE/s1600/IMG_1137.JPG

Kosovo
https://s3.postimg.org/4c4bzdnoj/PERFAQESUESJA_E_KOSOVE_S_U18_VESPREM_20131.jpg

guess which team would pass better in Georgia...

None.

Greeks look typical south Europeans and Kosovar Albanians are non-typical who look more like northerners.

Typical cosovar Albanians.

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~becki20g/classweb/kosovo/images/kosovo17v3_550.jpg

https://assets.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/no-slug/4bf92352542f9ed17df53d3a590bbac4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/UOSTxvn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HruZUVJ.jpg

Dinaric Kosovar.

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302377ae4b0b462a969ade2/53334ea9e4b09be6564d3194/53334eb0e4b014bbd2500f29/1399469523510/005+-+004+-+noncorbis_hi_001.jpg030.jpg?format=1000w


To stop wondering, Dinaric racial type is the most similar type to Armenid/Armenoid/Caucasid.

"Carleton S. Coon wrote that the Armenoid racial type is very similar to the Dinaric race."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenoid_race

"Dinaricism is not a quality pertaining to a single race, it is a condition. This condition is common in Europe; it is also common in western Asia."
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII13.htm

DINARID (Adriatic (Deniker); Epirotic)

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/glossdinarid.jpg

Central and southeastern Europid, named with reference to the Dinaric Alps. The Dinarid is considered a Taurid, being a product of the dinaricization of an ancestral population of uncertain affiliation (a Borreby-like Cro-Magnoid type has been suggested). Dinarids are typically brachycephalic and planoccipital, long-faced and long- and convex-nosed, and intermediate to dark in pigmentation. They are most common in the Balkans, especially in the region of former Yugoslavia, and a Dinarid "belt" extends from France through southern Germany, the Alps and northern Italy, terminating in the western shoreline populations of the Black Sea. Cf. Norid.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#Dinaric

ARMENID (Assyroid (Deniker); vorderasiatischer Typus ("Hither-Asiatic type", Günther))

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/armenid.jpg

Mostly brunet, large-headed Taurid type, first carefully described by von Luschan (as Armenoid). It resembles the European Dinarid, with the main exceptions of greater absolute facial dimensions and a larger nose. Armenids are prevalent among Armenians, and common throughout the Middle East, where they blend with Arabids to produce an easily recognizable Middle Eastern phenotype (cf. Assyrid). According to Coon, the Armenid (Armenoid, in his typology) type is the result of dinaricization of Iranids (Irano-Afghans, in his typology). Cf. Anatolid, Caucasid.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#Armenid

ARMENOID

Near Eastern Taurid parafamily, pertaining to the Armenid (relatively unmixed Taurid), Anatolid (Mediterranid-mixed Armenid), Assyrid and Caucasid (Dinarid-mixed Armenid) types.

CAUCASID (Mtebid (Lundman))

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/mtebid.jpg

Tall-statured Taurid indigenous to the northern Caucasus and adjacent regions, possibly initially a Dinarid-Armenoid intermediate. Caucasids are typical of the Georgian population, and the type is common among the Chechens, Ingushes, and Ossetians. A good example of the process of dinaricization, Caucasid features are probably a result of adaptation to life in mountainous regions. Not to be confused with Caucasian/Caucasoid.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#Caucasid

[Queen B]

Georgians

They also have square heads.

[Laberia]

They also have square heads.

But you are horse face. Hahahahahahahahahhaahaha
http://funny-wall.com/wp-content/uploads/Laughing-Horse.jpg

[CommonSense]

Because Albania, as a harsh mountainous region, wasn't appealing for Slavic settlers. Besides they were marching southwards along the Vardar valley which led them straight to Greek territory.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Because Albania, as a harsh mountainous region, wasn't appealing for Slavic settlers. Besides they were marching southwards along the Vardar valley which led them straight to Greek territory.

You're joking right?

The 2/3 of Greece have less or significantly less Slavic admixture than Albania. Only central Macedonia has more Slavic admixture than Albania (and some Slavic speakers as well) and the rest of North has equal

Greece has parts with zero Slavic admixture, see dodecanese etc

[Scholarios]

You're joking right?

The 2/3 of Greece have less or significantly less Slavic admixture than Albania. Only central Macedonia has more Slavic admixture than Albania (and some Slavic speakers as well) and the rest of North has equal

Greece has parts with zero Slavic admixture, see dodecanese etc

But I think North Albania was the kind of place where even the Romans didn't go. I mean, it's hard to get into Malësia even now. Imagine Proto-Albanians living in the highlands of Drin River, then coming down in winter to the Kosovo plain with their flocks, where they got partially Latinized. (like Vlachs got Hellenized this way). When Slavs came, the Proto-Albanians ran in the mountains and didn't come back down until like 14th Century where they started expanding fast and covered formerly Slav and Greek lands. Furthermore, the Slavs seem to have been following the primordial millennial-old "march to the sea" that the Proto-Greeks, Dorians, and others have taken. There was no reason for them to stay in barren-ass Albania, especially when there were other more savage tribes pushing them onward. (Avars, Bulgars, Magyars, and probably also Proto-Albanians and Proto-Vlachs)

You are right there are many such micro-regions of impassable mountains in Greece, and that's why Greeks survived the Slav invasions. But Greece is a lot bigger place than Albania and the lands of the Greek speaking people were even more expansive in the 6th and 7th Centuries. Imagine the Albanians as a tiny tribe like Tsakonians, if the Tsakonians didn't dwindle and instead expanded over the entire Peloponnese and into Central Greece.

Islands are of course another (mostly) impassable region for Slavic tribes. Cretans can be analogous to Albanians as they multiplied also around the 15th Century and expanded throughout the Aegean archipelago, into the Morea, and even to Italy and beyond. (same with Maniotes). In other words, tiny populations expanded and for this reason appear more "pure" today.

[brennus dux gallorum]

But I think North Albania was the kind of place where even the Romans didn't go. I mean, it's hard to get into Malësia even now. Imagine Proto-Albanians living in the highlands of Drin River, then coming down in winter to the Kosovo plain with their flocks, where they got partially Latinized. (like Vlachs got Hellenized this way). When Slavs came, the Proto-Albanians ran in the mountains and didn't come back down until like 14th Century where they started expanding fast and covered formerly Slav and Greek lands. Furthermore, the Slavs seem to have been following the primordial millennial-old "march to the sea" that the Proto-Greeks, Dorians, and others have taken. There was no reason for them to stay in barren-ass Albania, especially when there were other more savage tribes pushing them onward. (Avars, Bulgars, Magyars, and probably also Proto-Albanians and Proto-Vlachs)

You are right there are many such micro-regions of impassable mountains in Greece, and that's why Greeks survived the Slav invasions. But Greece is a lot bigger place than Albania and the lands of the Greek speaking people were even more expansive in the 6th and 7th Centuries. Imagine the Albanians as a tiny tribe like Tsakonians, if the Tsakonians didn't dwindle and instead expanded over the entire Peloponnese and into Central Greece.

Islands are of course another (mostly) impassable region for Slavic tribes. Cretans can be analogous to Albanians as they multiplied also around the 15th Century and expanded throughout the Aegean archipelago, into the Morea, and even to Italy and beyond. (same with Maniotes). In other words, tiny populations expanded and for this reason appear more "pure" today.

Genetic, anthropological and linguistic evidence debunk both of the first two paragraphs in your post, as from every aspect, Albanians are more Slavic mixed than half of Greeks, and equally or and less than the other half

And since you are talking about islanders who remained untouched, 40% of modern Greek population have from 1/4 to 100% ancestry from the islands. Among them, me

[Tauromachos]

whereas albania is more western influenced?

East europe admixture map:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif

West europe admixture map:
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/West-European-admixture.gif

Albania's slavic admixture is that of france's whereas greece is heavily influenced.
When will we take out albania out of eastern europe and add greece instead?


Far more Slavic ???

Any sources or proofs for this except eupedia?

Both don't have realy high Slavic for that matter.

Albania and Greece are the regions of South East Europe with the least Slavic and East Euro affinity

My source:The Sarno study

[Lavrentis]

The place in Greece which is more Slavic than Albania is the Macedonia and Thrace regions. The rest of Greece is less Slavic than Albania.

Btw, in Macedonia and Thrace there are still Slavic communities. I have also read that there are people there who speak Greek outside of their home but Slavic in their home. All these people get DNA tested and the result is that northern Greeks come out more Slavic than Albanians.

I’m not trying to seem biased, but Albanians look more Slavic than most of Greeks to me.

[Tauromachos]

The place in Greece which is more Slavic than Albania is the Macedonia and Thrace regions. The rest of Greece is less Slavic than Albania.

Btw, in Macedonia and Thrace there are still Slavic communities. I have also read that there are people there who speak Greek outside of their home but Slavic in their home. All these people get DNA tested and the result is that northern Greeks come out more Slavic than Albanians.

I’m not trying to seem biased, but Albanians look more Slavic than most of Greeks to me.

This^

[Scholarios]

Genetic, anthropological and linguistic evidence debunk both of the first two paragraphs in your post, as from every aspect, Albanians are more Slavic mixed than half of Greeks, and equally or and less than the other half

And since you are talking about islanders who remained untouched, 40% of modern Greek population have from 1/4 to 100% ancestry from the islands. Among them, me


What’s the obsession with purity ? What’s wrong with Slavs?


Ghegs are less autosomally East Euro/Baltic than almost any mainland Greek I’ve ever seen posted. They also have less Slavic haplogroups. ( confirmed in just about any study I’ve seen) These facts have been posted over and over and the reasons are as I’ve stated. If you care to address which parts have been “ debunked” , then I’d love to hear, because it sounds like you’re talking out of your ass on this topic, my friend.

Interesting about islander ancestry in Greeks. It means that without the Cretan diaspora re-colonizing the mainland, Mainland Greece would be even more Slavo-Vlachic with more R1a and I2a1b:cool:

[Coolguy1]

What’s the obsession with purity ? What’s wrong with Slavs?


Ghegs are less autosomally East Euro/Baltic than almost any mainland Greek I’ve ever seen posted. They also have less Slavic haplogroups. ( confirmed in just about any study I’ve seen) These facts have been posted over and over and the reasons are as I’ve stated. If you care to address which parts have been “ debunked” , then I’d love to hear, because it sounds like you’re talking out of your ass on this topic, my friend.

Interesting about islander ancestry in Greeks. It means that without the Cretan diaspora re-colonizing the mainland, Mainland Greece would be even more Slavo-Vlachic with more R1a and I2a1b:cool:

Scholarios, some of what you say isn’t true. Ghegs plot very close to Bulgarians and Romanians, they have a slight western shift in comparison. The only mainland Greeks who plot similarly are Slavophone Macedonians. There is a large discrepancy between Ghegs and much more southern shifted Tosks despite being geographically very close. On the other hand, Ghegs have lower levels of typical Slavic clades, which suggests that the mixing was mostly due to Albanian men taking Slavic wifes. Mainland Greeks have similar levels of these clades as Tosks.

[Pubiczar]

The place in Greece which is more Slavic than Albania is the Macedonia and Thrace regions. The rest of Greece is less Slavic than Albania.

Btw, in Macedonia and Thrace there are still Slavic communities. I have also read that there are people there who speak Greek outside of their home but Slavic in their home. All these people get DNA tested and the result is that northern Greeks come out more Slavic than Albanians.

I’m not trying to seem biased, but Albanians look more Slavic than most of Greeks to me.

Sorry to say to you but you speak out of your ass...

In Greek Macedonia, weather you are still Slavic speaker or not, or fully native Greek speaker only or not, doesn't play much into the genetics of the region...

I must burst your bubble as it seems this argument is way overused and is not true at all...

The truth is that, weather Greek only, or both Slavic and Greeks speaker, the people of the region are mixed and there is no magical genetic wall between them!

I have many kits, some of them are my matches and some have full genealogy provided and I can tell you that there is a genetic continuity in the region, regarding of ethnicity...

I can tell you also from what I've seen so far is that the western region of Macedonia(Kastoria) is more southern shifted than the central region(Thessaloniki) and in the same time more Albanian shifted(nothing strange according the geography)!

[brennus dux gallorum]

What’s the obsession with purity ? What’s wrong with Slavs?


Ghegs are less autosomally East Euro/Baltic than almost any mainland Greek I’ve ever seen posted. They also have less Slavic haplogroups. ( confirmed in just about any study I’ve seen) These facts have been posted over and over and the reasons are as I’ve stated. If you care to address which parts have been “ debunked” , then I’d love to hear, because it sounds like you’re talking out of your ass on this topic, my friend.

Interesting about islander ancestry in Greeks. It means that without the Cretan diaspora re-colonizing the mainland, Mainland Greece would be even more Slavo-Vlachic with more R1a and I2a1b:cool:

Nobody talked about purity, we compare two particular populations here

And no, most of Greek results from southern half of mainland have no more Slavic admixture than ghegs, it's quite the opposite

And talking about islanders' ancestry I don't mean exclusively cretans, garbage. There are 150 islands inhabited in Greece. Furthermore, provinces with increased Slavic or Slavo-Vlachic as you call it admixture don't have much population with partially islandic admixture (even though I am a half islander and almost half northern Greek). Most of partially islanders were settled in provinces with less Slavic admixture

[Lavrentis]

Sorry to say to you but you speak out of your ass...

In Greek Macedonia, weather you are still Slavic speaker or not, or fully native Greek speaker only or not, doesn't play much into the genetics of the region...

I must burst your bubble as it seems this argument is way overused and is not true at all...

I’ve read these things from here. Maybe it’s wrong, I don’t know. I have read that traditional ethnic Greek regions in Macedonia such as Halkidiki are not as Slavic shifted as Slavophone regions like Florina.

It makes sense to me that’s why I say it. It could be wrong of course.

[Kelmendasi]

You're joking right?

The 2/3 of Greece have less or significantly less Slavic admixture than Albania. Only central Macedonia has more Slavic admixture than Albania (and some Slavic speakers as well) and the rest of North has equal

Greece has parts with zero Slavic admixture, see dodecanese etc
Evidence?

[Lavrentis]

Ghegs have very little Slavic Y-DNA. But it’s already mentioned in this thread and in many other threads, even by Albanian users, that Ghegs took Slavic wives at some point. That’s not going to affect Y-DNA of course.

I have a lot of Gheg kits and most of them get almost identical results to northern Greeks and Bulgarians. I can post some of them.

[Kelmendasi]

Because Albania, as a harsh mountainous region, wasn't appealing for Slavic settlers. Besides they were marching southwards along the Vardar valley which led them straight to Greek territory.
This, the Slavs called the Malesia region of Albania "Prokletije" which iirc means "cursed mountains". This clearly tells us that the Slavs viewed the area as very unappealing, the Albanians on the other hand still inhabited the area.

[Kelmendasi]

Ghegs have very little Slavic Y-DNA. But it’s already mentioned in this thread and in many other threads, even by Albanian users, that Ghegs took Slavic wives at some point. That’s not going to affect Y-DNA of course.

I have a lot of Gheg kits and most of them get almost identical results to northern Greeks and Bulgarians. I can post some of them.
Not all Ghegs took Slavic wives, this only really occurred among the Albanian clans in Montenegro

[brennus dux gallorum]

Evidence?

The majority of results from peloponnese, central Greece and the islands, along with maps with Slavic toponyms in both countries (don't make me even get into islands, as my island has zero recorded Slavic names ;))

[Scholarios]

Scholarios, some of what you say isn’t true. Ghegs plot very close to Bulgarians and Romanians, they have a slight western shift in comparison. The only mainland Greeks who plot similarly are Slavophone Macedonians. There is a large discrepancy between Ghegs and much more southern shifted Tosks despite being geographically very close. On the other hand, Ghegs have lower levels of typical Slavic clades, which suggests that the mixing was mostly due to Albanian men taking Slavic wifes. Mainland Greeks have similar levels of these clades as Tosks.

Ok, you may have some points, but they are definitely Northwest of basically all Greeks. They’re close to Romanians ( a non-Slavic people ) and Bulgarians ( the least Slavic South Slavs). But combined with the low haplogroups and the fact that Greece assimilated an entire Slavic subregion in the past 100 years, I still think it isn’t crazy to believe Albania is less Slav influenced than Greece. ( even if only marginally ).

[Pubiczar]

I’ve read these things from here. Maybe it’s wrong, I don’t know. I have read that traditional ethnic Greek regions in Macedonia such as Halkidiki are not as Slavic shifted as Slavophone regions like Florina.

It makes sense to me that’s why I say it. It could be wrong of course.

There is one guy on Anthrogenica who posted his results...

He was half Tassos island and half Anatolian and he got a lot of East Euro on My Origins FTDNA, maybe around 16%, I will need to find his results.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Ok, you may have some points, but they are definitely Northwest of basically all Greeks. They’re close to Romanians ( a non-Slavic people ) and Bulgarians ( the least Slavic South Slavs). But combined with the low haplogroups and the fact that Greece assimilated an entire Slavic subregion in the past 100 years, I still think it isn’t crazy to believe Albania is less Slav influenced than Greece. ( even if only marginally ).

The particular subregion is more Slavic mixed than Albania, not the rest of the country

[Lavrentis]

The Arvanite ran out of arguments so he’s resorting to saying things like “b-but, Romanians are not a Slavic people, a-and, Bulgarians are the least Slavic shifted of all Slavs”

Yes you idiot, Romanians are not Slavic but they have significant Slavic influence. Particularly NE Romanians look barely different from Ukrainians.

And if Bulgarians are the least shifted Slavic people of all Slavs, what does that say about the fact that they are the Slavs who are the closest to Greeks?

[Scholarios]

Nobody talked about purity, we compare two particular populations here

And no, most of Greek results from southern half of mainland have no more Slavic admixture than ghegs, it's quite the opposite

And talking about islanders' ancestry I don't mean exclusively cretans, garbage. There are 150 islands inhabited in Greece. Furthermore, provinces with increased Slavic or Slavo-Vlachic as you call it admixture don't have much population with partially islandic admixture (even though I am a half islander and almost half northern Greek). Most of partially islanders were settled in provinces with less Slavic admixture

I am still waiting for you to refute the first two paragraphs, at least theoretically.

There are 150 islands in Greece from Thasos to Ikaria, Cretans have made their way there in the past 400 years. I’m one of their descendants.

[Scholarios]

The Arvanite ran out of arguments so he’s resorting to saying things like “b-but, Romanians are not a Slavic people, a-and, Bulgarians are the least Slavic shifted of all Slavs”

Yes you idiot, Romanians are not Slavic but they have significant Slavic influence. Particularly NE Romanians look barely different from Ukrainians.

And if Bulgarians are the least shifted Slavic people of all Slavs, what does that say about the fact that they are the Slavs who are the closest to Greeks?

cunt, I wasn’t speaking to you.

[Lavrentis]

How can a ραγιας who wishes his people were more raped by Slavs than they already are be using homosexuals as an insult?

At least ‘faggots’ are proud in what they are. But you, you fucking trash, you wish that some third world invaders had raped your ancestors more than they already have!

[Lavrentis]

Now he edited his comment :laugh:

[brennus dux gallorum]

I am still waiting for you to refute the first two paragraphs, at least theoretically.

There are 150 islands in Greece from Thasos to Ikaria, Cretans have made their way there in the past 400 years. I’m one of their descendants.

There are some dozens of results from both countries to find here, debunking all of your claims in the first two paragraphs, and I promise that I will post maps with Slavic toponyms after opening my pc

And as for the 150 islands, which remained almost untouched through centuries, and where me and 40% of people from Greece are partially or fully from, count, equally, if not more than particular provinces with half "slavovlahic" populations

And mind that other than islanders, anatolians in North have also zero Slavic admixture

[safinator]

Scholarios, some of what you say isn’t true. Ghegs plot very close to Bulgarians and Romanians, they have a slight western shift in comparison. The only mainland Greeks who plot similarly are Slavophone Macedonians. There is a large discrepancy between Ghegs and much more southern shifted Tosks despite being geographically very close. .

Ghegs if anything are eastern shifted compared to Tuscans/North Italians and there isn't any big discrepancy between Ghegs and Tosks like you could have between someone from Epirus and a Cretan,

[Scholarios]

There are some dozens of results from both countries to find here, debunking all of your claims in the first two paragraphs, and I promise that I will post maps with Slavic toponyms after opening my pc

And as for the 150 islands, which remained almost untouched through centuries, and where me and 40% of people from Greece are partially or fully from, count, equally, if not more than particular provinces with half "slavovlahic" populations

Boring slavophobia. I wrote the Apricity book on Slavic toponyms of Greece and Albania.

[Livin]

You're joking right?

The 2/3 of Greece have less or significantly less Slavic admixture than Albania. Only central Macedonia has more Slavic admixture than Albania (and some Slavic speakers as well) and the rest of North has equal

Greece has parts with zero Slavic admixture, see dodecanese etc


you are wrong dude!


Macedonia,thrace,thessalian and parts of peloponnesus are heavily slavic influenced!

Only Crete is clean.

[Kelmendasi]

You are well known as one of the biggest trash poster in ta, don't worry

And mind that my island has zero Slavic toponyms, unlike any part of Albania
Having Slavic toponyms in an area doesn't mean that the natives of that area have Slavic ancestry. It just means that the Slavs had replaced native names with their own names and those names stuck. Plus, the Mat and Durres areas of Albania hardly have any Slavic toponyms.

[Coolguy1]

Ghegs if anything are eastern shifted compared to Tuscans/North Italians and there isn't any big discrepancy between Ghegs and Tosks like you could have between someone from Epirus and a Cretan,

There is a sizeable difference between Ghegs and Tosks just going by the kits you have posted on another thread. Montenegrin Albanians are especially almost undifferentiated from Bulgarians.

Epirus and Crete are geographically distant and separated by ocean, it makes sense for them to be different.

[Tauromachos]

What’s the obsession with purity ? What’s wrong with Slavs?​​

Of course nothing

Slavic lands to Slavs,Greece to Greeks!!



Interesting about islander ancestry in Greeks. It means that without the Cretan diaspora re-colonizing the mainland, Mainland Greece would be even more Slavo-Vlachic with more R1a and I2a1b:cool:

Hahaha realy?????


One fourth of the Vlach people (isolated communities of Romance language speakers in the Balkans) belong to J2, considerably more than the average of Macedonia and northern Greece where they live. This, combined to the fact that they speak a language descended from Latin, suggests that they could have a greater part of Roman (or at least Italian) ancestry than other ethnic groups in the Balkans.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

[safinator]

There is a sizeable difference between Ghegs and Tosks just going by the kits you have posted on another thread. Montenegrin Albanians are especially almost undifferentiated from Bulgarians.

Epirus and Crete are geographically distant and separated by ocean, it makes sense for them to be different.

https://image.ibb.co/hHkYhe/K15ver3x.jpg

As you can see from this image Albanians are more western than Bulgarians and more eastern than Tuscans and North Italians but you are right that Albanians from Montenegro are slightly more northern plotting but the difference is marginal.

[brennus dux gallorum]

And you are an insecure cocksucker who even in 10 posts can’t manage to get out any point other than “ nuh-uh, not my island”. You’re not a bad person, but you are a moron who can’t seem to get past a.) your irrational and inappropriate prejudice against Albanians and b.) 200 years of Western-buttlicking as practiced and propagated by the Neo-Greek traitor state.

Every single word you post doesn't even make sense, your ideas worth less than a dish of boiled goat, I am really sorry for the time I wasted with you, next time I will do what the majority does here with you, to ignore you

And as long as it's my I island, I will talk about my island, without that showing any insecurity or something, it's just common sense, idiot

[brennus dux gallorum]

Having Slavic toponyms in an area doesn't mean that the natives of that area have Slavic ancestry. It just means that the Slavs had replaced native names with their own names and those names stuck. Plus, the Mat and Durres areas of Albania hardly have any Slavic toponyms.

I didn't imply that they replaced the local population, but they surely passed from there and a part of them was assimilated

*the vast majority of Greek Islands don't "hardly have Slavic toponyms", they have zero :)

[Nakama]

Based on what I've read in forums and academic blogs Cretan Greeks are the purest Greeks, the others are mixed with Slavs or with Anatolians (or both). Ancient Greek samples tested so far are all similar to Cretans the most in modern Greece.

[Lavrentis]

Based on what I've read in forums and academic blogs Cretan Greeks are the purest Greeks, the others are mixed with Slavs or with Anatolians (or both). Ancient Greek samples tested so far are all similar to Cretans the most in modern Greece.

Cretans are mixed with Anatolians/Armenians too but not to a big extend imo.

After the Byzantines took Crete from the Arabs, they settled Armenians in Crete because some places were deserted during the Arab rule of the island. So you can imagine that mixing with Armenians happened.

But as a whole, I would say that Cretans are closer to the ancient Greeks than most mainland Greeks are. I remember a study that came to the conclusion that Cretans are very similar to the ancient Minoans.

People from some islands like Kythera or Ionian islands should also be close to the ancient Greeks because these places were more isolated than the rest of Greece

[Livin]

Based on what I've read in forums and academic blogs Cretan Greeks are the purest Greeks, the others are mixed with Slavs or with Anatolians (or both). Ancient Greek samples tested so far are all similar to Cretans the most in modern Greece.

That’s the truth!

When we talk about greeks we mean Cretans!

[Babak]

Cretans are mixed with Anatolians/Armenians too but not to a big extend imo.

After the Byzantines took Crete from the Arabs, they settled Armenians in Crete because some places were deserted during the Arab rule of the island. So you can imagine that mixing with Armenians happened.

But as a whole, I would say that Cretans are closer to the ancient Greeks than most mainland Greeks are. I remember a study that came to the conclusion that Cretans are very similar to the ancient Minoans.

People from some islands like Kythera or Ionian islands should also be close to the ancient Greeks because these places were more isolated than the rest of Greece

Why do they get this though?

Eurogenes K15:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 36.44
2 West_Asian 19.62
3 West_Med 14.88
4 Atlantic 9.94
5 North_Sea 9.05
6 Red_Sea 6.53
7 Eastern_Euro 1.65
8 Baltic 1.52

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cyprian @ 8.867983
2 Italian_Jewish @ 9.455449
3 Sephardic_Jewish @ 9.509411
4 South_Italian @ 10.538556
5 Tunisian_Jewish @ 11.081727
6 Algerian_Jewish @ 11.493864
7 Lebanese_Muslim @ 11.667982
8 Libyan_Jewish @ 12.384988
9 Central_Greek @ 12.629702
10 East_Sicilian @ 12.730501
11 Ashkenazi @ 13.706054
12 Syrian @ 13.782309
13 Italian_Abruzzo @ 15.242478
14 Samaritan @ 16.090847
15 West_Sicilian @ 16.446417
16 Lebanese_Christian @ 16.548937
17 Turkish @ 16.930298
18 Jordanian @ 17.486563
19 Assyrian @ 17.576880
20 Lebanese_Druze @ 17.679707

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Abruzzo +50% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.452662

[brennus dux gallorum]

Based on what I've read in forums and academic blogs Cretan Greeks are the purest Greeks, the others are mixed with Slavs or with Anatolians (or both). Ancient Greek samples tested so far are all similar to Cretans the most in modern Greece.

That's impossible for ancient Greeks of mainland, as they lacked minoan admixture.

[Lavrentis]

Why do they get this though?

Eurogenes K15:

#PopulationPercent
1East_Med36.44
2West_Asian19.62
3West_Med14.88
4Atlantic9.94
5North_Sea9.05
6Red_Sea6.53
7Eastern_Euro1.65
8Baltic1.52

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cyprian @ 8.867983
2 Italian_Jewish @ 9.455449
3 Sephardic_Jewish @ 9.509411
4 South_Italian @ 10.538556
5 Tunisian_Jewish @ 11.081727
6 Algerian_Jewish @ 11.493864
7 Lebanese_Muslim @ 11.667982
8 Libyan_Jewish @ 12.384988
9 Central_Greek @ 12.629702
10 East_Sicilian @ 12.730501
11 Ashkenazi @ 13.706054
12 Syrian @ 13.782309
13 Italian_Abruzzo @ 15.242478
14 Samaritan @ 16.090847
15 West_Sicilian @ 16.446417
16 Lebanese_Christian @ 16.548937
17 Turkish @ 16.930298
18 Jordanian @ 17.486563
19 Assyrian @ 17.576880
20 Lebanese_Druze @ 17.679707

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Abruzzo +50% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.452662

That’s a half Cypriot, ask Sikeliot he will confirm :thumb001:

Cretans cluster close to Apulians and Athenians:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180823/0dcad7972f2b5e92ea3d334833f96e4b.png

Other Cretan results:

1)

#PopulationPercent
1East_Med29.82
2West_Med16.12
3West_Asian13.69
4Atlantic9.82
5North_Sea9.82
6Baltic9.51
7Eastern_Euro4.95
8Red_Sea4.3
9Oceanian0.76
10Southeast_Asian0.64
11Northeast_African0.55
12Siberian0.04

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Central_Greek5.03
2Ashkenazi5.64
3East_Sicilian6.07
4South_Italian6.81
5Greek8
6Greek_Thessaly8.06
7Italian_Abruzzo8.68
8West_Sicilian9.55
9Italian_Jewish9.58
10Sephardic_Jewish10.78
11Algerian_Jewish10.94
12Tuscan13.49
13Tunisian_Jewish13.88
14Cyprian14.31
15Libyan_Jewish14.49
16Bulgarian15.03
17Romanian17.33
18Lebanese_Muslim17.55
19Turkish18.38
20Syrian18.49

2)


#PopulationPercent
1East_Med29.88
2West_Asian18.24
3West_Med17.38
4Atlantic10.98
5North_Sea9.49
6Baltic7.9
7Red_Sea4.73
8Oceanian0.84
9Sub-Saharan0.4
10Amerindian0.11
11South_Asian0.06

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1South_Italian4.5
2Central_Greek4.86
3East_Sicilian5.78
4Ashkenazi8.28
5Italian_Abruzzo8.36
6Italian_Jewish9.23
7Sephardic_Jewish9.97
8West_Sicilian10.34
9Greek10.79
10Greek_Thessaly10.79
11Algerian_Jewish10.9
12Cyprian12.71
13Tunisian_Jewish13.28
14Tuscan14.1
15Libyan_Jewish14.66
16Lebanese_Muslim15.99
17Turkish16.4
18Syrian17.33
19Bulgarian17.95
20Samaritan19.83

[Pubiczar]

https://image.ibb.co/hHkYhe/K15ver3x.jpg

As you can see from this image Albanians are more western than Bulgarians and more eastern than Tuscans and North Italians but you are right that Albanians from Montenegro are slightly more northern plotting but the difference is marginal.

This PCA done by a memeber of Anthrogenica is very good imo. and is very similar to the one in Lazaridis et al study:

https://s33.postimg.cc/41f8jjpb3/33016272762_2f3e139a15_b.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/4qy0vwpuj/)

Although in this PCA there are only Bulgarians, we can see by the amateur PCA that some Slavic Macedonians, especially from the South of the country are quite south shifted and even more so than some Kosovo and Montenegro Albanians...

Also on the Lazaridis et al PCA, we can see some Albanians are quite eastern shifted and on the amateur map all the Albanians are western shifted except an Aromanian from Korca region in Albania...

Maybe the Aromanians from Albania are those that plot east on Lazaridis et al PCA...

[Babak]

That’s a half Cypriot, ask Sikeliot he will confirm :thumb001:

Cretans cluster with Apulians and Athenians:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180823/0dcad7972f2b5e92ea3d334833f96e4b.png

Other Cretan results:

1)

#PopulationPercent
1East_Med29.82
2West_Med16.12
3West_Asian13.69
4Atlantic9.82
5North_Sea9.82
6Baltic9.51
7Eastern_Euro4.95
8Red_Sea4.3
9Oceanian0.76
10Southeast_Asian0.64
11Northeast_African0.55
12Siberian0.04

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Central_Greek5.03
2Ashkenazi5.64
3East_Sicilian6.07
4South_Italian6.81
5Greek8
6Greek_Thessaly8.06
7Italian_Abruzzo8.68
8West_Sicilian9.55
9Italian_Jewish9.58
10Sephardic_Jewish10.78
11Algerian_Jewish10.94
12Tuscan13.49
13Tunisian_Jewish13.88
14Cyprian14.31
15Libyan_Jewish14.49
16Bulgarian15.03
17Romanian17.33
18Lebanese_Muslim17.55
19Turkish18.38
20Syrian18.49

2)


#PopulationPercent
1East_Med29.88
2West_Asian18.24
3West_Med17.38
4Atlantic10.98
5North_Sea9.49
6Baltic7.9
7Red_Sea4.73
8Oceanian0.84
9Sub-Saharan0.4
10Amerindian0.11
11South_Asian0.06

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1South_Italian4.5
2Central_Greek4.86
3East_Sicilian5.78
4Ashkenazi8.28
5Italian_Abruzzo8.36
6Italian_Jewish9.23
7Sephardic_Jewish9.97
8West_Sicilian10.34
9Greek10.79
10Greek_Thessaly10.79
11Algerian_Jewish10.9
12Cyprian12.71
13Tunisian_Jewish13.28
14Tuscan14.1
15Libyan_Jewish14.66
16Lebanese_Muslim15.99
17Turkish16.4
18Syrian17.33
19Bulgarian17.95
20Samaritan19.83

lol oh, i guess gultekin was wrong

[Coolguy1]

This PCA done by a memeber of Anthrogenica is very good imo. and is very similar to the one in Lazaridis et al study:

https://s33.postimg.cc/41f8jjpb3/33016272762_2f3e139a15_b.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/4qy0vwpuj/)

Although in this PCA there are only Bulgarians, we can see by the amateur PCA that some Slavic Macedonians, especially from the South of the country are quite south shifted and even more so than some Kosovo and Montenegro Albanians...

Also on the Lazaridis et al PCA, we can see some Albanians are quite eastern shifted and on the amateur map all the Albanians are western shifted except an Aromanian from Korca region in Albania...

Maybe the Aromanians from Albania are those that plot east on Lazaridis et al PCA...

I have seen Albanian results from the southeast area that are more northeastern shifted compared to Chams and Labs. This area has a large number of Slavic toponyms as well. They score similarly to you.

[Pubiczar]

I have seen Albanian results from the southeast area that are more northeastern shifted compared to Chams and Labs. This area has a large number of Slavic toponyms as well. They score similarly to you.

Both southern parts of my country and the south-eastern part of Albania are heavily Vlach admixed...
Having Slav + Vlach admixture makes people plot similar

[Kelmendasi]

I didn't imply that they replaced the local population, but they surely passed from there and a part of them was assimilated

*the vast majority of Greek Islands don't "hardly have Slavic toponyms", they have zero :)
The Greek islands are obviously not going to have Slavic toponynms as they didn't settle any iirc.

[-Scar-]

There were quite some Greek colonies along the coastline. The coastline until the drin river was mostly Greek, while the interior (aside from Epirus) was mostly Illyrian. Although some interior localities were a mix between Greeks and Illyrians at the time as well. In Byzantine times, Albania was seen as the gateway to the Greek world from Italy's perspective. It was the starting point of the via Egnatia to Constantinople. Especially in Tosk areas the Greek element has certainly been strong. Romans described Albania as a hybrid area between Greeks and Illyrians. We have to take into consideration that Albania was rather scarcely populated.

I'm not going to play the same game some Albanian nationalist do and claim Albanians are Greeks. But the Greek element in Albanian territory (especially the south) can not be denied. Ironically, it is far stronger than the Greek element in territories of FYR of Macedonia which was mostly Thracian.
"Now although in those earlier times, as I have said, all Epeirus and the Illyrian country were rugged and full of mountains, such as Tomarus and Polyanus and several others, still they were populous; but at the present time desolation prevails in most parts, p313 while the parts are still inhabited survive only in villages and in ruins. And even the oracle at Dodona, like the rest, is virtually extinct." - Strabo

[Peterski]

Probably because Greek culture was more attractive for foreigners (such as Slavs) to assimilate into, than Albanian culture.

Due to a much higher cultural level of Greece than Albania.

[Lavrentis]

Probably because Greek culture was more attractive for foreigners (such as Slavs) to assimilate into, than Albanian culture.

Due to a much higher cultural level of Greece than Albania.

Also because most parts of Albania are really isolated by mountains so it wasn’t easy for the Slavs to go there.

[-Scar-]

Byzantine Empire was by far more powerful, it speard Christianity in Europe.

[Lavrentis]

I know that I have said it many times already, but I also think most Slavs who are assimilated in Greece are Bulgarians and Slavo-Macedonians from the Ottoman times and the Balkan wars rather than the Medieval Slavs who invaded Greece. Most Medieval Slavs who invaded Greece were either exterminated by the Byzantines or were settled in Asia Minor.

While we know that during the Ottoman era and during the Balkan wars a lot of Bulgarians and Slavo-Macedonians were assimilated in northern Greece.

[Papastratosels26]

Wow such a hate to the northener Greeks from fellow [Greeks].

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[Papastratosels26]

Pussy, you won’t even name your island.Don't listen them. TheSouth Greeks always hated us.

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[Pubiczar]

I know that I have said it many times already, but I also think most Slavs who are assimilated in Greece are Bulgarians and Slavo-Macedonians from the Ottoman times and the Balkan wars rather than the Medieval Slavs who invaded Greece. Most Medieval Slavs who invaded Greece were either exterminated by the Byzantines or were settled in Asia Minor.

While we know that during the Ottoman era and during the Balkan wars a lot of Bulgarians and Slavo-Macedonians were assimilated in northern Greece.

Than how do you explain the occurrence of I2a-Dinaric, R1a-Z280, R1a-L1029 as far south as Peloponnese and even Crete?
There were never Bulgarians that far south...

[Tauromachos]

Than how do you explain the occurrence of I2a-Dinaric, R1a-Z280, R1a-L1029 as far south as Peloponnese and even Crete?
There were never Bulgarians that far south and many people from those areas with those lineages claim full ancestry from those areas, in another words, they are no migrants from Northern Greece!

How many or how much % of Cretans ancestry are these lineages?

Maybe i can find also some Vlacho Macedonians from Skopje with Gypsy halpogroups and clades

And?

[Livin]

Than how do you explain the occurrence of I2a-Dinaric, R1a-Z280, R1a-L1029 as far south as Peloponnese and even Crete?
There were never Bulgarians that far south and many people from those areas with those lineages claim full ancestry from those areas, in another words, they are no migrants from Northern Greece!

I2 in Crete is local.

But i have to agree with you about the r1a.We don't have enough informations.Did slavs settled there?


As for the I2 and r1a haplos/subclades are of medieval origins in the rest of greece parts.

[Lavrentis]

Than how do you explain the occurrence of I2a-Dinaric, R1a-Z280, R1a-L1029 as far south as Peloponnese and even Crete?
There were never Bulgarians that far south...

There were Bulgarians and other Slavs in Peloponnese and Crete actually, I wish I remembered the source but the Byzantines settled some Bulgarians there. In Crete they settled some Slavs after expelling the Arabs.

There are some Slavic toponyms in Crete such as Voulgaro, Rodovani, Sklavounou etc.

R1a in Peloponnese is 10%:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180823/52b44d95d3715a92ecd90b7dbcc2f17a.png

R1a in Crete is 8%:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180823/022364ebbc7c9ff86e5416a31153c47b.png

[Livin]

79523

This map is the best i guess!!!

It shows clearly the slavic influences.

[Pubiczar]

How many or how much % of Cretans ancestry are these lineages?

Maybe i can find also some Vlacho Macedonians from Skopje with Gypsy halpogroups and clades

And?

Why you get so emotional about this??

If I have said, there are many Greeks with French and Italian lineages would you feel better??

[Papastratosels26]

Why you get so emotional about this??

If I have said, there are many Greeks with French and Italian lineages would you feel better??Sicily xD

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[brennus dux gallorum]

Wow such a hate to the northener Greeks from fellow [Greeks].

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What lead you to that conclusion?

[Livin]

79524

Another good map i guess!Shows the main haplos from region to region.

[Tauromachos]

Why you get so emotional about this??

If I have said, there are many Greeks with French and Italian lineages would you feel better??

There are any Greeks with Greek lineages afterall?

Or don't they exist?

What about French,Italians,Balkanites with Greek lineages?

Do they exist as well maybe?

Its clear to me though their number is not large there are some Albanians at least with Gypsy subclade of H

Even Albanians themselves had said this sometimes

[Lavrentis]

But i have to agree with you about the r1a.We don't have enough informations.Did slavs settled there?

R1a in Crete is close to 9%. And yes, some Slavs were settled here by the Byzantines, because after expelling the Arabs, some parts of the island were deserted.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Than how do you explain the occurrence of I2a-Dinaric, R1a-Z280, R1a-L1029 as far south as Peloponnese and even Crete?
There were never Bulgarians that far south and many people from those areas with those lineages claim full ancestry from those areas, in another words, they are no migrants from Northern Greece!

There were slavs recorded in both Crete and peloponnese (even though to a very low degree in both) , but dinaric hg obviously predates slavs

[Papastratosels26]

Look lavrentis posts and you will see
What lead you to that conclusion?

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[Lavrentis]

Look lavrentis posts and you will see

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What did I say about northern Greeks? That they have Slavic influence? And that insulted you? :confused:

[brennus dux gallorum]

79524

Another good map i guess!Shows the main haplos from region to region.

Nea nikomedia genetically superior :amour101::amour101:

Where is that f**** place?

[Pubiczar]

There are any Greeks with Greek lineages afterall?

Or don't they exist?

What about French,Italians,Balkanites with Greek lineages?

Do they exist as well maybe?

Its clear to me though their number is not large there are some Albanians at least with Gypsy subclade of H

Even Albanians themselves had said this sometimes

Of course there are!

Some subclades of J2a are uber Greek if you ask me!

Than other clades of E1b and R1b as well!

But there is no 100% purity!

I don't know why is this so hard to be accepted

[Livin]

R1a in Crete is close to 9%. And yes, some Slavs were settled here by the Byzantines, because after expelling the Arabs, some parts of the island were deserted.

Seems true!I didn't knew that.But its not a big percentage i guess compared to other regions.

[Papastratosels26]

How can a ραγιας who wishes his people were more raped by Slavs than they already are be using homosexuals as an insult?

At least ‘faggots’ are proud in what they are. But you, you fucking trash, you wish that some third world invaders had raped your ancestors more than they already have!Maybe this????

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[Livin]

Nea nikomedia genetically superior :amour101::amour101:

Where is that f**** place?


Province,Veroia/Imathia.

They don't have eptanisa islands btw and some other parts.

[Lavrentis]

Maybe this????

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I didn’t insult northern Greeks. And that guy I was replying to is from Peloponnese

[Papastratosels26]

I didn’t insult northern Greeks. And that guy I was replying to is from PeloponneseI thought he was from the North. I Apologize.

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[Pubiczar]

There were slavs recorded in both Crete and peloponnese (even though to a very low degree in both) , but dinaric hg obviously predates slavs

Only subclade so far discovered of I2a Dinaric, that is not present in any Slavic people but is present in Greeks and some Jews is I-A2512!

But looking at the Greek dna project, there are more of the subclades present in the Slavic people than the former!

[Livin]

Of course there are!

Some subclades of J2a are uber Greek if you ask me!

Than other clades of E1b and R1b as well!

But there is no 100% purity!

I don't know why is this so hard to be accepted

J2a is the most greek haplo without doubt.

R1b also is very greek and it has to do with indoeuropean people(Dorians).It hits very hard in peloponesus,crete and in rhodes and other islands.

EV13 is pre-greek neolithic i don't think it should be considerered as a Greek haplo.


Myceneans and Minoans were CHG and they brought J2a lineages.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Anyway, judging by toponyms and results that I have Seen here, the ranking of Slavic admixture in the two countries is :

-Central Macedonia
-East Macedonia and thrace
-Epirus, thessaly and southern half Albania
-North Albania
-Peloponnese, central Greece
-Euboia
-Ionian islands
-Crete, cyclades and some northwest Aegean
-Rest of Aegean islands

[Tauromachos]

Of course there are!

Some subclades of J2a are uber Greek if you ask me!

Than other clades of E1b and R1b as well!

But there is no 100% purity!

I don't know why is this so hard to be accepted


No one talked about 100% purity

Such a thing does not exist and never did from a biological point of view and no one is pure

there aren't any 100% pure Slavs,pure Semites,pure Anatolians neither in that sense

The only thing is that Slavic ancestry in Greeks is constantly exagerated and overrated in this forum
vs anything else

It amazes me with what persitence and stubborness people here try defend the notion that Greece is heavily Slav admixed when all
the peer reviewed studies even Sarno say something different

Of course when some Slavs assimilated in Greece as some did"nobody denies that" their haplogroups and genetic legacy will show
up in some of todays Greek people but it won't be the majority or half of Greeks
anyway.

What next are you going to claim that Greeks are even more Slav admixed than your Slavo Makedonski?

I think common sense is sufficiant and dictates somehow that overall the Slavic admixture is higher in all the Slavic speaking Balkan populations than in any Greek group.

[CommonSense]

Not all Ghegs took Slavic wives, this only really occurred among the Albanian clans in Montenegro

True, the Albanians in Montenegro have a visibly higher 'Baltic' score on gedmatch than the other Albanians. There definitely was some interethnic mixing in that region.

[Arborean]

R1a in Crete is close to 9%. And yes, some Slavs were settled here by the Byzantines, because after expelling the Arabs, some parts of the island were deserted.

Don’t forget some of the earliest Slavic invasions were settled and assimilated and could have migrated from the mainland to Crete as Greeks despite generations earlier being Slavic.

Many also have low resolution tests. My line per Albanian founder effect joined Albanian clans around 700-800AD. The same could be the case for some cluster of Greeks with R1a or even I2a.

Also R1a in Crete could very well be partially Z93 or even Z280 clusters from the Caucasus.

In the mainlands case it’s most definitely the result of Slavic and indirectly Vlach settlements. Some could be assimilated early on and now be specific to Greece or others more recent from Bulgarian settlements as you suggest.

[Lavrentis]

Don’t forget some of the earliest Slavic invasions were settled and assimilated and could have migrated from the mainland to Crete as Greeks despite generations earlier being Slavic.

Yep, this is also a probable explanation and is probably one of the reasons of the existance of R1a in Crete. Inter-migrations. Especially in the big towns.

[Tauromachos]

Don’t forget some of the earliest Slavic invasions were settled and assimilated and could have migrated from the mainland to Crete as Greeks despite generations earlier being Slavic.

Hence they were not realy invasions

Dude that Slavic tribes tried to invade or penetrate into Greeks lands a couple of times is possible
But Greece hasn't been invaded 1000 of times by Slavs

The locals in Greece themselfes were warlike and wouldn't allow anyone to come in and invade so easy

In particular South Peloponnese and Crete where resistance against any kind of invadors has a long tradition

Even the Germans had hard time and much trouble in WW2 to invade the small Greek nation so much that
even Winston Churchill said this


Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but heroes fight like Greeks.





Also R1a in Crete could very well be partially Z93 or even Z280 clusters from the Caucasus.


+1

Hence it may have even existed in Minoan people

Minoans had some Caucasus

At least studies on Minoan samples so far show that Minoans had also haplogroup I among others
unfortunately i don't know which clades if I1 or I2..

Thus for Crete at least the existence of I does not have to do with Slavs or with other people from the North

The study also says that there were migration movement from Crete into the rest of Europe in Minoan times which brought these clades as far
as France

[Arborean]

Hence they were not realy invasions

Dude that Slavic tribes tried to invade or penetrate into Greeks lands a couple of times is possible
But Greece hasn't been invaded 1000 of times by Slavs

The locals in Greece themselfes were warlike and wouldn't allow anyone to come in and invade so easy

In particular South Peloponnese and Crete where resistance against any kind of invadors has a long tradition

Even the Germans had hard time and much trouble in WW2 to invade the small Greek nation so much that
even Winston Churchill said this







+1

Hence it may have even existed in Minoan people

Minoans had some Caucasus

At least studies on Minoan samples so far show that Minoans had also haplogroup I among others
unfortunately i don't know which clades if I1 or I2..

Thus for Crete at least the existence of I does not have to do with Slavs or with other people from the North

The study also says that there were migration movement from Crete into the rest of Europe in Minoan times which brought these clades as far
as France

All very possible. Alternatively, even if(as some suggested) there were very few Slavs remaining after expulsion, those few could have become fruitful in progeny after assimilation. In order for this theory to hold, most of the I2-Din and R1a in Greece would need to be the result of founder effects and bottlenecks.

Hopefully full resolution testing becomes cheaper so low resolution tests can be fleshed out better.

[Scholarios]

Wow such a hate to the northener Greeks from fellow [Greeks].

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They hate themselves too, and they argue in bad faith.

[Crn Volk]

I know that I have said it many times already, but I also think most Slavs who are assimilated in Greece are Bulgarians and Slavo-Macedonians from the Ottoman times and the Balkan wars rather than the Medieval Slavs who invaded Greece. Most Medieval Slavs who invaded Greece were either exterminated by the Byzantines or were settled in Asia Minor.

While we know that during the Ottoman era and during the Balkan wars a lot of Bulgarians and Slavo-Macedonians were assimilated in northern Greece.

Serbs and Bulgarians built powerful medieval empires well before the Turks arrived. Albania, Greek Macedonia and Thrace were part of these empires.

[Crn Volk]

Don't listen them. TheSouth Greeks always hated us.

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That's OK, doors' always open to the north ;)

[Constantine13]

Greeks have more *Northeastern*. Northeastern does not equal Slavic. The ancient Greek speakers came from, wait for it...somewhere northeast of Greece.

Albanians have more Illyrian. Illyrian likely makes up much of the Western. The most direct Illyrian descendants are the Ghegs, who migrated in from above the Jirecek line. Tosks are simply "Albanized" Epirotes, whom I suspect would have been Western shifted as well.

Whatever made the Ghegs migrate southward (Slavic advance?) likely pushed down other old (Thracian-type) Balkan groups into Greece, enriching the Northeastern component.

Actual Slavic influence is likely just as high--if not higher--in Albanians compared to Greeks




whereas albania is more western influenced?

East europe admixture map:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif

West europe admixture map:
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/West-European-admixture.gif

Albania's slavic admixture is that of france's whereas greece is heavily influenced.
When will we take out albania out of eastern europe and add greece instead?

[Scholarios]

Greeks have more *Northeastern*. Northeastern does not equal Slavic. The ancient Greek speakers came from, wait for it...somewhere northeast of Greece.

Albanians have more Illyrian. Illyrian likely makes up much of the Western. The most direct Illyrian descendants are the Ghegs, who migrated in from above the Jirecek line. Tosks are simply "Albanized" Epirotes, whom I suspect would have been Western shifted as well.

Whatever made the Ghegs migrate southward (Slavic advance?) likely pushed down other old (Thracian-type) Balkan groups into Greece, enriching the Northeastern component.

Actual Slavic influence is likely just as high--if not higher--in Albanians compared to Greeks


Yes, Mycenaeans had some northeast component. But from samples we got so far it was less than half modern Greeks’ NE. Also haplogroups were J2. I’m waiting for some Classical Greeks’ genomes. I think they’ll be the same or even less northeast.

[Kelmendasi]

There were slavs recorded in both Crete and peloponnese (even though to a very low degree in both) , but dinaric hg obviously predates slavs
The I2a-Din clades that Slavs belong to don't predate Slavs.

[Kelmendasi]

There are any Greeks with Greek lineages afterall?

Or don't they exist?

What about French,Italians,Balkanites with Greek lineages?

Do they exist as well maybe?

Its clear to me though their number is not large there are some Albanians at least with Gypsy subclade of H

Even Albanians themselves had said this sometimes
The number of H in Albanians is under 1%, Greeks probably have the same amount. And even this percentage of H could just be from Roma which identify with the nationality of the country like Albanian or Greek

[Kelmendasi]

Greeks have more *Northeastern*. Northeastern does not equal Slavic. The ancient Greek speakers came from, wait for it...somewhere northeast of Greece.

Albanians have more Illyrian. Illyrian likely makes up much of the Western. The most direct Illyrian descendants are the Ghegs, who migrated in from above the Jirecek line. Tosks are simply "Albanized" Epirotes, whom I suspect would have been Western shifted as well.

Whatever made the Ghegs migrate southward (Slavic advance?) likely pushed down other old (Thracian-type) Balkan groups into Greece, enriching the Northeastern component.

Actual Slavic influence is likely just as high--if not higher--in Albanians compared to Greeks
Tosks aren't "Albanized Epirotes", if that was the case their Ydna haplogroups and overall genetic make up would be closer to Epirotes and other Greeks rather than other Albanians. Northern Albania is still north of the Jirecek line so it seems most likely that Proto-Albanians occupied this area.

[IncelSlayer]

Do any of them score slavic DNA?
Slavic is a language group dominant in Russia,Ukraine,Belarus etc... does any of these genetic tests say greeks have dna from those countries?

[Sikeliot]

Anyway, judging by toponyms and results that I have Seen here, the ranking of Slavic admixture in the two countries is :

-Central Macedonia
-East Macedonia and thrace
-Epirus, thessaly and southern half Albania
-North Albania
-Peloponnese, central Greece
-Euboia
-Ionian islands
-Crete, cyclades and some northwest Aegean
-Rest of Aegean islands


Flip the list upside down and it's basically a list of most to least similar to Sicily. :lol: ;) Believe it or not there are Albanians who are genetically closer to Sicilians, than what you would find in Macedonian Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

Do any of them score slavic DNA?
Slavic is a language group dominant in Russia,Ukraine,Belarus etc... does any of these genetic tests say greeks have dna from those countries?

Yes.

On 23andme after the update many Greeks get the dots next to Poland for having DNA matches there.

[Sikeliot]

Btw, Scholarios -- here is your mainland Greek influence in Calabria you've been looking for :lol: Very "eastern" looking for Calabrian standards.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?256575-Classify-Italian-model-from-Calabria

:thumb001:

[Sikeliot]

Here is a Greek result -- scores actually very little East European (they are half island, half mainland) but it does match it to Russia.

More interesting to me is the minor East Asian.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2dwdjqe.jpg

[Lavrentis]

Greeks have more *Northeastern*. Northeastern does not equal Slavic. The ancient Greek speakers came from, wait for it...somewhere northeast of Greece.

Albanians have more Illyrian. Illyrian likely makes up much of the Western. The most direct Illyrian descendants are the Ghegs, who migrated in from above the Jirecek line. Tosks are simply "Albanized" Epirotes, whom I suspect would have been Western shifted as well.

Whatever made the Ghegs migrate southward (Slavic advance?) likely pushed down other old (Thracian-type) Balkan groups into Greece, enriching the Northeastern component.

Actual Slavic influence is likely just as high--if not higher--in Albanians compared to Greeks

Myceaneans were predominantly J2a though, not R1a.

The Dorians were R1b.

I think there has to be a different explanation as to why Greece has more NE DNA than Albania. I already said that it’s probably all the Bulgarians and Slavo-Macedonians that were assimilated in northern Greece during the Balkan wars

[Arborean]

Flip the list upside down and it's basically a list of most to least similar to Sicily. :lol: ;) Believe it or not there are Albanians who are genetically closer to Sicilians, than what you would find in Macedonian Greeks.

Surprisingly I get no East Euro on 23. Neither does my father. In some Gedmatch Calcs we come closer to South Italians, Sicilians, Sardinians. In some cases Tuscan and North Italian comes before even Albanian. For instance my father is modeled with Apulian in some Gedmatch admixtures. or Abruzzo. I have to find the right ones. We are from Eastern Albania too. So you would thing some Macedonian/Bulgarian would have rubbed off. Then again they are the least NE admixed South Slav groups.

[arkas]

Here is a Greek result -- scores actually very little East European (they are half island, half mainland) but it does match it to Russia.

More interesting to me is the minor East Asian.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2dwdjqe.jpg

That's crazy, even I have more Greek ethnicity estimates. Which Greek islands are high Italian estimates most common?

[Livin]

Yes, Mycenaeans had some northeast component. But from samples we got so far it was less than half modern Greeks’ NE. Also haplogroups were J2. I’m waiting for some Classical Greeks’ genomes. I think they’ll be the same or even less northeast.

They have not find many elite samples yet!Lazaridis estimate 25-30% ANE ancestry among Mycenaeans,witch means that if proto-greeks come from yamnaya would be probably R1a people.We need more samples about Mycenaeans genetics!

[Kelmendasi]

They have not find many elite samples yet!Lazaridis estimate 25-30% ANE ancestry among Mycenaeans,witch means that if proto-greeks come from yamnaya would be probably R1a people.We need more samples about Mycenaeans genetics!
I reckon Proto-Greeks were R1b-Z2103 carriers and not R1a carriers. Yamnaya samples were dominantly R1b-Z2103 carriers. Today in Europe R1b-Z2103 clades are mostly carried by Albanians and Greeks

[Scholarios]

They have not find many elite samples yet!Lazaridis estimate 25-30% ANE ancestry among Mycenaeans,witch means that if proto-greeks come from yamnaya would be probably R1a people.We need more samples about Mycenaeans genetics!

Hmmm. Yamnaya graves were mostly R1b though. Also, R1a in Greece is mostly a youngish clade. Basically everything found in Greece is J2 and G, but I can't imagine there isnt also R1b and E1b. We shall see. Stakes are high to sequence graves from 5th Century Athens or Sparta.

[Livin]

I reckon Proto-Greeks were R1b-Z2103 carriers and not R1a carriers. Yamnaya samples were dominantly R1b-Z2103 carriers. Today in Europe R1b-Z2103 clades are mostly carried by Albanians and Greeks

Maybe yes!I am not fully 100% sure if they were R1a.But if you check the languanges the greek is very close with indo-iranian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan

[Kelmendasi]

Hmmm. Yamnaya graves were mostly R1b though. Also, R1a in Greece is mostly a youngish clade. Basically everything found in Greece is J2 and G, but I can't imagine there isnt also R1b and E1b. We shall see. Stakes are high to sequence graves from 5th Century Athens or Sparta.
I think that the chances of finding E-V13 in Neolithic Greek samples is low, E-V13 at the time was most probably in very small numbers and I think it was restricted to the west Balkans when it comes to the Balkans. R1b should definitely be found in Bronze Age samples, same with E-V13 imo.

[Livin]

Hmmm. Yamnaya graves were mostly R1b though. Also, R1a in Greece is mostly a youngish clade. Basically everything found in Greece is J2 and G, but I can't imagine there isnt also R1b and E1b. We shall see. Stakes are high to sequence graves from 5th Century Athens or Sparta.

Anyway!The sure thing is proto-greeks were ANE people and they come in mainland from some kind of indoeuropean culture like Yamnaya or catacomb culture.R1a or R1b dosnt really matter!

We need more fukcing samples to found out i guess.

[Kelmendasi]

Maybe yes!I am not fully 100% sure if they were R1a.But if you check the languanges the greek is very close with indo-iranian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan
The Greek language is closer to Armenian than it is to Indo-Iranian and Armenians are mainly R1b-Z2103. Also the R1a in Greeks today isn't that old, it's surely from the Slavs. If R1a was carried by Proto-Greeks then there would be an old R1a clade restricted to Greeks or the Balkans.

[Coolguy1]

Greeks and Albanian seem to derive their steppe ancestry to Yamnaya groups that first settled in Bulgaria and then expanded further south. All other Europeans seem to be something Corded-Ware derived.

[Livin]

The Greek language is closer to Armenian than it is to Indo-Iranian and Armenians are mainly R1b-Z2103. Also the R1a in Greeks today isn't that old, it's surely from the Slavs. If R1a was carried by Proto-Greeks then there would be an old R1a clade restricted to Greeks or the Balkans.

Yes,close with indo-iranian and armenian too!

I agree that modern r1a clades are slavic.But can you explain me why modern Greeks have so low r1b lineages?

It seems the neolithic folks of EV13 absorded very easy these r1b(As you said) clades.


R1b hits mostly in Crete,some parts of Peloponnesus and Rhodes.Also some r1b clades coming from vlacho-arvanites and celtoromans....

[Lavrentis]

Weren’t all proto-Indo-Europeans ANE related? Like proto-Celts, proto-Illyrians etc? Or no? We definitely need more samples though

[Kelmendasi]

Greeks and Albanian seem to derive their steppe ancestry to Yamnaya groups that first settled in Bulgaria and then expanded further south. All other Europeans seem to be something Corded-Ware derived.
Yh, this is also shown by how the R1b in both is mainly derived from Z2103 suggesting that the R1b is mainly from direct contact with the Yamnaya or Yamnaya off-shoots

[Kelmendasi]

Weren’t all proto-Indo-Europeans ANE related? Like proto-Celts, proto-Illyrians etc? Or no? We definitely need more samples though
Indo-European samples do show ANE admix and R seems to have come from the ANE peoples originally, so PIE peoples had paternal origin from the ANE

[Token]

The Greek language is closer to Armenian than it is to Indo-Iranian and Armenians are mainly R1b-Z2103. Also the R1a in Greeks today isn't that old, it's surely from the Slavs. If R1a was carried by Proto-Greeks then there would be an old R1a clade restricted to Greeks or the Balkans.
Steppe component in the Mycenaean samples is most similar to Srubnaya, so Proto-Greeks were probably overwhelmingly R1a. We also have these Neolithic samples from Greece plotting together with Corded Ware. This would explain why Hellenic and Indo-Iranian are linguistically closer to each other than they are to any other Indo-European branch.

[Livin]

Greeks and Albanian seem to derive their steppe ancestry to Yamnaya groups that first settled in Bulgaria and then expanded further south. All other Europeans seem to be something Corded-Ware derived.

You are Cretan?

[Coolguy1]

You are Cretan?

No, Laconian.

[Livin]

No, Laconian.

You are fully Greek?

[Livin]

Steppe component in the Mycenaean samples is most similar to Srubnaya, so Proto-Greeks were probably overwhelmingly R1a. We also have these Neolithic samples from Greece plotting together with Corded Ware. This would explain why Hellenic and Indo-Iranian are linguistically closer to each other than they are to any other Indo-European branch.

Buddy,do you have any idea why we cant find R1a clades among modern greek population or even r1b.

I mean r1a is coming mostly from slavic expasion.Only r1b its probably real greek(Dorians).Do you beieve that neolithic folks absorded all these indoeuropean r1a-r1b clades??????

[Kelmendasi]

Steppe component in the Mycenaean samples is most similar to Srubnaya, so Proto-Greeks were probably overwhelmingly R1a. We also have these Neolithic samples from Greece plotting together with Corded Ware. This would explain why Hellenic and Indo-Iranian are linguistically closer to each other than they are to any other Indo-European branch.
Problem is there isn't any R1a-M458 clade which seems to be linked with the Greeks afaik, but this could just be because the clade died out due to no sons being born or something.

[Coolguy1]

You are fully Greek?

Yes I am.

[Livin]

Yes I am.

Cool!!!

Nice haplo :)

[Robocop]

whereas albania is more western influenced?

East europe admixture map:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif

West europe admixture map:
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/West-European-admixture.gif

Albania's slavic admixture is that of france's whereas greece is heavily influenced.
When will we take out albania out of eastern europe and add greece instead?

Well, IMO to answer this, one needs to go into distant past, not only recent ones.

We cannot forget the fact who DORANS (Greeks) were who settled in Greece 1750 BC (Myceneans), and then second wave of Greeks (Dorans) who came around 1200/1100 BC.

Dorans came from the east, as IndoEuropean tribe, this goes far before slavic or romance or celtic or germanic ethnics formed, so, it means they do not have connection to slavs as slavs, but they have connections to slavs as in terms of those ancient ancient times before even slavs formed as slavs, hope you get the point :).

Before Greeks (Myceneans and second wave of Greeks after Myceneans) came to area of Greece, Greece was settled by Neolithic farmers, very much alike those to whom Albanians share heritage.

All of them (in Greece) were submitted to Greeks (Myceneans) around 1800/1750 BC, also from those Neolithic farmers emerged some of other Greek ethnics as: IONIANS, who are IN FACT a mix of Dorans with pre-Doran/Greek settlers of Greece, so Dorans+Neolithic Farmers (before greeks/dorans) = IONIANS.

This may seem very complicated to some, but in fact it is very simple and interesting, I could write entire thread about it.

Anyway, by the time of Classical Greek period, means around 5th century BC, Greece was homogenized by language, Dorans and Pre-doran (non-hellenic) population all became Hellens (Greeks), in that time no one even payed attention that those non-hellenic population even existed there, cause they're all became one; Greeks (divided on Dorans as originals, Ionians etc...).

[Pubiczar]

I reckon Proto-Greeks were R1b-Z2103 carriers and not R1a carriers. Yamnaya samples were dominantly R1b-Z2103 carriers. Today in Europe R1b-Z2103 clades are mostly carried by Albanians and Greeks

There is a bronze age sample from Bulgaria - R1a-Z93
Also there are at least 2 Greeks, somewhere from the Aegean if I remember right who are R1a-Z93(NON Turkic branch)
Also I think, R1a-Z93 was found in South Italy as well, however we need more NGS tests for better resolution

[Token]

Buddy,do you have any idea why we cant find R1a clades among modern greek population or even r1b.

I mean r1a is coming mostly from slavic expasion.Only r1b its probably real greek(Dorians).Do you beieve that neolithic folks absorded all these indoeuropean r1a-r1b clades??????
Haplogroups are not that important in modern populations. For example, if you look at the Y-DNA distribution in modern Scandinavia, you would assume they are one of the least (genetically) Indo-European people of Europe. However, they have the highest levels of steppe ancestry of the world. Now look at Basques, they are ~90% R1b and are only 25% steppe.

[Livin]

Haplogroups are not that important in modern populations. For example, if you look at the Y-DNA distribution in modern Scandinavia, you would assume they are one of the least (genetically) Indo-European people of Europe. However, they have the highest levels of steppe ancestry of the world. Now look at Basques, they are ~90% R1b and are only 25% steppe.

Indeed!But it looks very strange to me that proto-greeks didnt left any liange behind them.

[Kelmendasi]

There is a bronze age sample from Bulgaria - R1a-Z93
Also there are at least 2 Greeks, somewhere from the Aegean if I remember right who are R1a-Z93(NON Turkic branch)
Also I think, R1a-Z93 was found in South Italy as well, however we need more NGS tests for better resolution
True, but he is considered to be Thracian and not Greek. I agree NGS tests are needed to determine a clade that these Greeks fall in

[Scholarios]

There is a bronze age sample from Bulgaria - R1a-Z93
Also there are at least 2 Greeks, somewhere from the Aegean if I remember right who are R1a-Z93(NON Turkic branch)
Also I think, R1a-Z93 was found in South Italy as well, however we need more NGS tests for better resolution

It's very weird tho, some Kurdish branch? Still don't understand that one, myself.

[Sikeliot]

That's crazy, even I have more Greek ethnicity estimates. Which Greek islands are high Italian estimates most common?

Aegean Islands. Even more than Crete the islands like Ikaria, Kalymnos, etc

[Pubiczar]

It's very weird tho, some Kurdish branch? Still don't understand that one, myself.

More NGS tests needed, however with their cost at the moment, not everyone can allow himself such a test...

I guess we will have to wait for more until the prize goes down for such tests.

Kurds are an interesting population and it has been confirmed that they have many european related y-dna lineages, however they are understudied so can't tell much about them...

[Pubiczar]

True, but he is considered to be Thracian and not Greek. I agree NGS tests are needed to determine a clade that these Greeks fall in

I am not sure about that, I think this sample predates the Thracians if I remember right it was dated to 1800 BC...

[Jana]

I think Dorians who came to Greece came from north meaning close neighbourhood (modern Macedonia and Albania) and not from far away like Ukrainian steppe.

So Dorians Were probably Slightly more northern shifted from Myceneans, no drastic difference.

Slavic influence in northern Greece is undeniable, but Albania is not devoid of it either especially the south (and it was Full with Slavic toponyms)

Seems Mountain Ghegs isolated in their highlands are Purest Paleo Balkan people with Least Slavic influence, others have it in Varying amounts including Vlachs and mainland Greeks.

[Jana]

Wow such a hate to the northener Greeks from fellow [Greeks].

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I don't want to troll you because I know you are Greek, but you look very Slavic to me.
And Slavic in sense you could even fit among East Slavs for example not just Balkan Slavs.

All other Greek members look Southern European to me, but you are exception.

[Tauromachos]

I don't want to troll you because I know you are Greek, but you look very Slavic to me.
And Slavic in sense you could even fit among East Slavs for example not just Balkan Slavs.

All other Greek members look Southern European to me, but you are exception.

He says he is Half German so his look is normal for a person with this mix i think.

He can pass in both Slavic and Germanic countries imo

But not exclusivly depending he can fit in different parts of Southern Europe too such as North Italy
for example ,just a typical Southern European look that sticks out in Central Europe or Slavic countries he doesn't
have

But to add there are Greek natives with Germanic looks too or sometimes Slavic looks.

But of course many Greeks look different and more Southern European as you say

[Livin]

I don't want to troll you because I know you are Greek, but you look very Slavic to me.
And Slavic in sense you could even fit among East Slavs for example not just Balkan Slavs.

All other Greek members look Southern European to me, but you are exception.

This goes for me also xd:D

[Papastratosels26]

I don't want to troll you because I know you are Greek, but you look very Slavic to me.
And Slavic in sense you could even fit among East Slavs for example not just Balkan Slavs.

All other Greek members look Southern European to me, but you are exception.I'm not offended. But East Slavs?

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[Livin]

I'm not offended. But East Slavs?

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Υou can pass as Russian i guess.Not the baltic type ofc but your North Pontid face can easily pass there.

[Jana]

He says he is Half German so his look is normal for a person with this mix i think.

He can pass in both Slavic and Germanic countries imo

But not exclusivly depending he can fit in different parts of Southern Europe too such as North Italy
for example ,just a typical Southern European look that sticks out in Central Europe or Slavic countries he doesn't
have

But to add there are Greek natives with Germanic looks too or sometimes Slavic looks.

But of course many Greeks look different and more Southern European as you say

I have visited Northern Italy Many times and never saw face like his.
To me he is unpassable in Northern Italy because of very foreign (Slavic) vibe for that part of World.

[Jana]

I'm not offended. But East Slavs?

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You would easily pass in Ukraine and Southern Russia.
North Pontid is major phenotype there, Balto-Nordid is more common in central and northern parts.

Just my opinion :)

[HELLBANIAN]

Probably because Greek culture was more attractive for foreigners (such as Slavs) to assimilate into, than Albanian culture.

Due to a much higher cultural level of Greece than Albania.

Albanians did assimilate Slavs and took brides although they were isolated mountaineers but they were more so assimilated by the arriving Slavs than other way around probably because those Slavs had empires were Albanians assimilated and became it's subject. Greece had an empire that assimilated a lot of Slavs which would make Greece overall more Slavic influenced, but it all comes down to the individual.

It is obviously connected to historical aspects rather than attractive culture.

[-Scar-]

Not by far though.
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Slavic_Europe.png