March of the Titans

[Vulpix]

March of the Titans (http://www.white-history.com/index.htm)
A History of the White Race

Version 10 October 2008

<table style="border-collapse: collapse;" width="700" border="2" bordercolor="#c0c0c0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 1. Important Issues (http://www.white-history.com/hwr1.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Definition of race; White racial types; Means of tracking race in history; Environment and genes; Homo Erectus and Neanderthal no relation to Homo Sapiens.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 2. The Late Paleolithic Age (http://www.white-history.com/hwr2.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> 35,000 BC - 10,000 BC; First modern White racial types establish hunter gatherer existence and sporadic first settlements in Europe and Near East.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 3. The Neolithic Age (http://www.white-history.com/hwr3.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0">
- 10,000 BC; First fixed White settlements in Europe; then in Near East. The great stone monuments are created, and the first cities emerge.
</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff">
Chapter 4. Laying the Foundations - The Old European Civilizations (http://www.white-history.com/hwr4.htm)
</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff">
- 5000 BC - 2500 BC; First European continental civilizations; Crete; Etruscans; and the Indus River Valley.
</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0">
Chapter 5. Born of the Black Sea - The Indo-European Invasions (http://www.white-history.com/hwr5.htm)
</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - 5600 BC - 1000 BC; The Black Sea Flood causes Nordic invasions of Europe (Celts, Germans, Balts and Slavs); and the Near East, Afghanistan and India (Aryans).</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 6. To the Ends of the Earth - Lost White Migrations (http://www.white-history.com/hwr6a.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff">
- Astonishing ancient White migrations to China (1500 BC), the Canary Islands (1300 BC); North and South America (7000 - 2000 BC).
</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 7. The Near East - Whites Overwhelmed (http://www.white-history.com/hwr7.htm)
</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - 3000 BC - 1000 BC; Indo-Aryan civilizations in Mesopotamia; Iraq; Iran; dissolution and disappearance into Semitic and Arabic neighbors.
</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 8. Egypt - Nordic Desert Empire (http://www.white-history.com/hwr8.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff">- 3000 BC - 800 BC; Nordic Egyptian kings and queens; Dissolution of White Egyptians into Semitic, Arabic and Black (Nubian) neighbors.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 9. Alpha and Omega - The Rise and Fall of Civilizations (http://www.white-history.com/hwr9.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - The rise and fall of civilizations explained in terms of their racial homogeneity; with the Near East civilizations as examples.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 10. The Hellenes - Classical Greece (http://www.white-history.com/hwr10.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff">
- 1500 BC - 200 BC; Age of Indo-Aryan peoples in Greece; The Classical Age and its dissolution into non-White slave and immigrant population.
</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0">
Chapter 11. Conqueror and Creator - Alexander the Great (http://www.white-history.com/hwr11.htm)
</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - 1000 BC - 200 BC; The greatest military leader of all time, Alexander the Macedonian, conquers all of the known world and creates the kingdoms of Syria Ptolemaic Egypt.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff">
Chapter 12. The Age of the Caesars - Pre-Christian Rome (http://www.white-history.com/hwr12.htm)
</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - 800 BC - 200 AD; Origins of Roman Republic and its transformation into an Empire; Racial developments till the time of Christianity; Julius Caesar, Octavian Augustus and the Pax Romana.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 13. Power and Purpose: The Glory of Rome (http://www.white-history.com/hwr13.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0">
- Cultural, military and architectural splendor of Classical Rome
</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 14. Opponents and Allies - Rome and the Celts (http://www.white-history.com/hwr14.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - 200 BC - 100 AD; Roman conquest of Celtic lands of France, Spain and Britain</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 15. The Useful Foe - Rome and the Germans (http://www.white-history.com/hwr15.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - 100 BC- 100 AD; Roman Empire defeated by Germans under Hermann; German mercenaries become the backbone of the Roman military as true Romans become fewer.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 16. Racial Cauldron - Rome and the Near East (http://www.white-history.com/hwr16.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - 200 BC - 200 AD; Roman conquest of mixed race Middle and Near East lands; Influx of mixed race peoples and slaves into Rome causes dissolution of original Roman population.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 17. Christianity - By Stealth and Steel (http://www.white-history.com/hwr17.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - The Jewish origins of Christianity; Spread of Christianity into Roman Empire and Europe.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 18. The First Great Race War - Atilla the Hun (http://www.white-history.com/hwr18.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - The invasion of Europe by Asiatic Mongols under Atilla the Hun and his descendants.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 19. The Fall of Rome - The Triumph of the Slaves (http://www.white-history.com/hwr19.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - The real cause of the fall of the Western Roman Empire explained through the disappearance of the original Roman people.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 20. Byzantine - The Eastern Roman Empire (http://www.white-history.com/hwr20.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - The Eastern Roman Empire as a largely mixed race population existing through constant replenishment of its population from Europe.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 21. The Second Great Race War- The Crusades (http://www.white-history.com/hwr21.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - The White Race war against the non-White Muslims in Palestine; Egypt, North Africa and Portugal, under the guise of Christianity.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 22. Lessons in Decline - Spain and Portugal (http://www.white-history.com/hwr22.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Origin of the Iberian countries; the Portuguese slave trade; Gypsies in Spain; History until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 23. The Third Great Race War - The Moors Invade Europe (http://www.white-history.com/hwr23.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - The non-White Moors invade Europe and are driven out by White armies; Jewish co-operation with the non-White Moors.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 24. The Nordic Reservoir - Scandinavia (http://www.white-history.com/hwr24.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Denmark; Sweden; Finland; Norway - the history of the Scandinavian countries from the first settlements until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 25. The Fury of the Men of the North - Vikings and Normans (http://www.white-history.com/hwr25.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - History of expeditions and settlements: France; Britain, Ireland, Russia and North America.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 26. Flamboyance and Ferment - France (http://www.white-history.com/hwr26.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - History until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 27. Destiny and Destruction - Napoleon (http://www.white-history.com/hwr27.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Racial implications of Napoleonic wars for France.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 28. The Isle of Influence - Great Britain (http://www.white-history.com/hwr28i.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - History until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 29. Civil War and Emigration - Ireland (http://www.white-history.com/hwr29.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Conflict with the English: the longest running White civil war in history; History until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 30. Small yet Significant - The Low Countries (http://www.white-history.com/hwr30.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Netherlands; Belgium, Luxembourg - History until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 31. The Fourth Great Race War - The Bulgars, Khazars and Magyars (http://www.white-history.com/hwr31.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Asiatic invasions of Eastern Europe defeated by White armies.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 32. The Fifth Great Race War - Ghengis Khan (http://www.white-history.com/hwr32.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Asiatic invasions of Eastern Europe and Southern Russia.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 33. Continual Conquest - The Baltic States (http://www.white-history.com/hwr33i.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Prussia; Lithuania; Latvia; Estonia; Poland; the Christian Teutonic Knights exterminate the last White pagans.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 34. The Test of Ethnicity - Switzerland, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia (http://www.white-history.com/hwr34i.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Conflict resolution in racially homogeneous and non racially homogeneous societies; History until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 35. The Sixth Great Race War - The Ottoman Holocaust (http://www.white-history.com/hwr35.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Non-White invasion of South Eastern Europe; The fall of Constantinople; non-White Turks only driven out after nearly 1000 years; Racial after effects on White population in this region.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 36. Turmoil in the Balkans - Romania, Bulgaria, Albania and Greece (http://www.white-history.com/hwr36i.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - History until contemporary times; the true story of Count Dracula (Vlad the Impaler); partially mixed race populations result from non-White Ottoman occupation and resultant instability.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 37. Risorgimento - The Resurrection of Italy (http://www.white-history.com/hwr37.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Lombard Germanic invasion of northern Italy causes division of Italy into bi-racial nation; White in the north, mixed race Roman remnants in the south; History until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 38. Gott Mitt Uns - The Rise of Germany (http://www.white-history.com/hwr38.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Holy Roman Empire; Civil Wars; Unification; Maintenance of racially homogeneous society; History until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 39. The Doomed Empire - Austria and Hungary (http://www.white-history.com/hwr39.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Creation of ethnically and partially racially diverse empire and its resultant collapse; History of the separate countries of Austria and Hungary until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 40. The Rise of the Tsars - Russia to 1917 (http://www.white-history.com/hwr40.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Nordic origins and race wars with Asiatics in pre-Communist Russia</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 41. Christianity Dominant - The Dark Ages (http://www.white-history.com/hwr41.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - The Age of Christianity causes halt in progress in learning; the Inquisition.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 42. The Rebirth of Classical Culture - The Renaissance (http://www.white-history.com/hwr42.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff">
- The overthrow of the Christian Dark Age causes a return to pre-Christian White classical values; science and learning re-emerge after 900 years.
</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 43. In The Name of God - The Christian Wars (http://www.white-history.com/hwr43.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - White civil wars caused by Christianity; One third of the White Race killed as a result.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 44. White Expansion - Voyages of Discovery (http://www.white-history.com/hwr44.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Whites explore and start settling the world</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 45. The Yihequan - Race War in the Far East (http://www.white-history.com/hwr45.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - First White settlements; Chinese race war against White powers; Japanese racial isolation and then adaptation to White culture</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 46. The Sun Never Sets - The British Empire (http://www.white-history.com/hwr46.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - History until its dissolution</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 47. The Well of Bibighar - Whites in India (http://www.white-history.com/hwr47.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - The British take control of India with the aid of certain Indian leaders, but face a vicious anti-White race war and rebellion.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 48. Conquistadors - Whites in South and Central America (http://www.white-history.com/hwr48.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - The White Conquest of South and Central America and the creation of modern South American population; fall of Incas and Aztecs explained through racial mixing.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 49. Revolution! The Birth of the United States of America (http://www.white-history.com/hwr49.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - The establishment of the American Colonies and their rebellion against British rule, leading to the American Revolution and its racial implications.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 50. The Seventh Great Race War - The Amerinds (http://www.white-history.com/hwr50.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - ("Red Indians") - The race wars between the Whites and Red Indians in America; until contemporary times; Original American constitution refuses to recognize Amerinds as US citizens.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 51. The Eighth Great Race War - Mexico (http://www.white-history.com/hwr51.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Santa Ana and the Mexican-US War; The Alamo; The USA invades Mexico.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 52. Three Fifths of a Person: The History of Slaves (http://www.white-history.com/hwr52.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - History of slaves as a means of importing Blacks into White countries; Original American constitution counts Blacks as three fifths of a person and denies them citizenship and voting rights; Black race war against Whites in Haiti.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 53. "Our White Men Cutting One Another's Throats" - The American Civil War and the Reconstruction (http://www.white-history.com/hwr53.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Course of the American Civil War; Racial implications and the Ku Klux Klan.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 54. Immigration and Eugenics - America from 1870 to 1945 (http://www.white-history.com/hwr54.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Black riots; Jewish immigration ; Racially based US immigration laws follow American world lead in eugenics.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 55. British North America - Canada (http://www.white-history.com/hwr55.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Canadian Amerinds displaced by White immigration; History until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 56. The White Man's Burden - White Settlements in Southern Africa (http://www.white-history.com/hwr56.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - South Africa and Rhodesia; microcosm of the rise and fall of states according to their demographic make-up.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 57. New Zeal - Australia and New Zealand (http://www.white-history.com/hwr57.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Maoris and Aborigines displaced by White immigration; History until contemporary times.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 58. Shaping the World - The White Technological Revolution (http://www.white-history.com/hwr58.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - All significant inventions which shape the world originate with the White Race; comprehensive list of inventors, inventions, dates, places.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 59. The First Great Brothers' War - World War 1 (http://www.white-history.com/hwr59.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Course of war; Racial implications.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 60. The October Revolution - Communism in Russia (http://www.white-history.com/hwr60.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Course of revolution which brought Communism to the World.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 61. The Suppressed Link - Jews and Communism (http://www.white-history.com/hwr61.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - The Jewish role in the creation of Communism; Soviet anti-Zionism.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 62. The Second Great Brothers' War - World War 2 (http://www.white-history.com/hwr62.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Course of war; Racial implications.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 63. The Shadow of the Ghetto - The Saga of the European Jews (http://www.white-history.com/hwr63.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - History of Jews until contemporary times; Expulsion in Middle Ages; Nazi anti-Semitism; Anti-Jewishness and anti-Zionism.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 64. The Racial State - The Third Reich (http://www.white-history.com/hwr64.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - Racial Laws; Social ordering; Economics; Health laws; the Jews.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 65. The White Master Goes Home - The Collapse of Colonialism (http://www.white-history.com/hwr65.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - The end of the White colonies in the Third World.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 66. Social Upheaval - 'Civil Rights' and the Collapse of Communism (http://www.white-history.com/hwr66.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - The rise of Black Power in the USA; The Soviet Union and the Cold War until the dissolution of the Communist Empire</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> Chapter 67. The Changing Face - Non-White Immigration Into the White Heartlands (http://www.white-history.com/hwr67.htm) </td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#c0c0c0"> - Third World immigration into Europe; North America and Australia in the last ten years of the 20th Century; World racial populations and projections.</td></tr><tr><td width="215" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Chapter 68. Ragnarok - The Coming Fall of the West (http://www.white-history.com/hwr68.htm)</td><td width="519" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff"> - The dissolution of contemporary Western civilization through breakdown in racial homogeneity; racial discordance (race and crime); Current rates of non-White immigration will mean not one majority White country left on earth by 2090.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Osweo]

I'm sick of having this waved at me as though it were an impeccable authority, so I thought it might be useful to subject a random section to criticism, to see of what quality it is made;


The only common thread amongst the centuries of internecine war was a refusal by all of the Germans to allow foreigners into their lands. This tradition ensured that Germany remained one of the most racially homogeneous societies on continental Europe until the last quarter of the 20th Century,
Nonsense. There is an immense amount of Slavonic and Celtic substrate in the population. And plenty of French Huguenots got in without too much bother. And you'll find Hungarian names if you look enough into the pedigrees of the aristos... Why do Jews speak a form of Rheinland Deutsch?


Otto also had to fight off attacks from the Danes and Slavs, defeating them and establishing German centers in the lands he occupied as a result - the most prominent being the archbishopric of Magdeburg in 968 AD.

He passes over the same matter in silence...


Remnants of the Avars however wreaked havoc on central Europe, on German and Slav alike. They had occupied large areas of present day eastern Europe - Hungary, Russia to the Volga river and a strip of territory reaching right up to the Baltic sea.
He thinks the Chuvash are 'Avars' (they are Bulgars), and that the latter were up on the Baltic once upon a time... :tsk:


The Avars were overthrown either through their physical expulsion, or in some cases, their biological absorption - again contributing to the "Slavic" look which can still be found amongst certain groups of Slavs.

This is not to say that all present day Slavs are of mixed ancestry - huge numbers are not - but what is regarded as the typically "Slavic" look has its roots in the absorption of the various Asiatic invaders. As any traveler to Eastern Europe or Russia can vouch, the "Slavic" look is not nearly as common as is often believed, and confined mainly to the southeastern reaches of Russia itself.
Drivel.


Originally from Asia Minor (Turkey), the Khazars
Just plain wrong.


remnants of a Mongoloid people who had originally settled in Finland (and whose descendants to this day form part of the Lapp people in that country) but who were in part driven south by the Indo-European invaders over the centuries.

Mixing North and South is a bit thick...


The Khazars themselves were not that different, perhaps a little lighter than the original Semites, but that was all. In this way the core of what was to become the European Jews was formed - the basis of the Ashkenazim.

Idiocy. A fantasy invented by a Jew (Koestler) and many times disproven. The Ashkenazim are clearly from the Rhineland.


THE NORSEMEN DEFEAT THE MAGYARS
LoL WHAT?@?!!!????

By the end of the 8th Century the Norsemen had built fortified settlements at Novgorod and Kiev and had set up smaller trading posts further down south, into Khazar territory. In short order they were at war with the emerging Magyars. The Asiatics were defeated by the Nordic Norsemen, and the entire area around the lower Don River became known as Great Sweden
Svithjod the Great is a name older than the Varangian expeditions, being attached to very old stories about the Goths in the modern Ukraine. There are no records of Magyar/Varangian battles. BOTH were enemies of the Khazars in fact, and are thus more likely to have been ALLIES!


The Alans had originally called themselves the As, and a leading clan amongst them was known as the Rukhs-As (the "shining" or "leading" Alans). From this developed a tribal name, the Rus.
Piss Poor Etymology. :tsk:


properly named Aesopus
LOL, if you don't understand Greek name structure, don't embarrass yourself like this! Αἴσωπος, Aisōpos...


once settled in the north eastern reaches of Europe, the Balts never tried to expand further: the only Indo-European peoples not to engage in any further land grabbing exercises. Probably because of this isolationist policy,
LOL, the Balts pushed as far east as Moscow in their prehistoric phase. And how is it 'isolationist' to have assimilated so many Finnics? - the bulk of modern Latvians.


Pre-Roman Celtic Britain is best described as iron age, although the country was essentially Neolithic with agriculture as its main activity.
Poorly written self-contradicting drivel.


queen Boadicea of the Iceni
Oh ffs... How many times will this spelling error be perpetuated!??!?! :rage BOUDICCA! Modern Welsh Buddug!


The Boadicean revolt was the last major native rebellion the Romans experienced in Britain for the next two hundred years.
There are plenty of indication of Brigantes revolting, it's just that Boudicca was lucky that the works of Tacitus were preserved and well written.


By 212 AD, the Romans were firmly entrenched in England (as opposed to Britain)
VERY bad means of expression...


The Balts occupied the northern coast of the continent (giving their name to the Baltic sea) and the Scandinavian countries (dominating them, with the notable exception of Finland, which has to this day retained a large part of its original Alpine/Mediterranean population make-up).
Yep, you read it correctly. Finns are Alpine Mediterraneans.


It is presumed that advance parties of Germans could also have been responsible for the wave of Indo-European peoples called the Latini, who penetrated Italy around this time.

FUCK THIS, I CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Regardless of some nitpicking disputes, it is overall an excellent work

[Electronic God-Man]

Regardless of some nitpicking disputes, it is overall an excellent work

Nitpicking? The whole thing is a ridiculous portrayal of history. It's just plain false in too many ways to count.

How is it an excellent work?

[SwordoftheVistula]

Some spelling disputes, based on which language you are citing from?

It's an excellent work which outlines the influence and spread of a certain people throughout history.

[Electronic God-Man]

The "White Race" was not behind all the great civilizations and achievements in history. Race was not the major factor driving all of history.

[Matritensis]

The chapter dedicated to Spain is so full of inexactitudes that if,as I suppose,the rest of the book is like that,no wonder all the racialist sites on the net are so full of utter bullshit,ignorance of history,and crap in general.One thing is to the defend Europe's heritage,try to preserve its ways and achievements,and another is to defend a fallacy (that race alone creates empires and that its "degeneration" destroys them) twisting history or simply inventing it in order to make everything match.What a fucking joke,really.

[Aramis]

It was only expectable that jealous southerns (and Oswiu) will hate this piece of scientific work. Nothing new under the Sun.

[lei.talk]

I'm sick of having this waved at me as though it were an impeccable authority, so I thought it might be useful to subject a random section to criticism, to see of what quality it is made:

Nonsense...
Drivel.
Just plain wrong.
Idiocy...
LoL WHAT?@?!!!????
LOL...

respectfully - these criticisms
might demonstrate a more suasive affect,
if, accompanied by some evidence (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=247358&#post247358).

mere bald declarations (mockery)
might be considered insufficient by thoughtfull readers.


as suggested by ullarsskald (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=289330#post289330),
you may find this smilie appropriate:
http://www.clunk.org.uk/forums/images/smilies/exploding_head.gif
*

[Matritensis]

It was only expectable that jealous southerns (and Oswiu) will hate this piece of scientific work. Nothing new under the Sun.

Jealous of what,specifically? When somebody puts an Iberian sculpture as an example of "Gothic nordics in Spain" the least you can call him is cretin.Scientific work? :clap2:

[Ibericus]

Worst book ever. Pure crap. The spanish section makes me want to puke..

[Saruman]

In any case Kemp's typology was horrendous. He only distinguished between "Nordic, Alpine and Mediterranean", stating that the last is extinct:eek:, overall taking typology from Madison Grant whose system was too simple and erroneous(one has to distinguish Dinarid from Alpinid). He was also very obscure in his explanation of their origin, leaving easily an impression upon the casual reader that they might have arrived from another planet. Personally while being open minded that's certainly far too fetched in absence of any conclusive evidence. Also just because some individuals had light eyes, that doesn't make them "Nordic", it can be easily natural variation among many populations. Though that Pharaohs had a predominance of types similar to Europeans is correct (South Mediterranid numerous, Berberid Cromagnid type etc.).

[Falkata]

Horrible book written by a clueless nordicist dude who looks southern.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eZy7ckbzk28/R6p1NjcpdmI/AAAAAAAAAHU/rFr2MrMQsOQ/s400/arthur.JPG

Totally simplistic, innacurate... this book is an insult against historians
I´m reading right now about Spain in this March of the Titans crap and I´ve already noticed a good set of nosensical statements

- The ancient iberian sculpture "La dama de Elche" is portrayed as " gothic nordic" --> The goths arrived to Iberia many centuries later...

-Hannibal (yes, the carthaginian) is also described as "nordic" :eek:

- The "Reconquista" is described as a racial fight between White Goths and Non-White Africans when it was a religious one.

-The expulsion of the moriscos in 1609 is also portrayed as racial and Kemp keeps talking about Goths even in that century (XVII ! ) as if they were still something appart from the local population.

- He affirms that " a very large ammount of black slaves were imported into Spain" which its also false and absurd.

-He tries to associate the fall of the spanish Empire with a change in the racial makeup of the population (turning into "less white). Nothing happened to the spanish people in the XVII-XVIII centuries. If anything, they became "more white" by Kemp standards since 250000 moriscos were expelled in 1609 and many of those lands occupied by central european peasants.

-As an ending for this epic bullshit he claims that still some basques continue to wage a guerrilla war in the north of the country
Apparently , there are people in the basque mountains with shotguns and grenades like if this was Colombia :D

[Cato]

Chapter 50 : The Seventh Great Race War - The Amerinds

As if the Aerminds had any concept of race or race war. They were merely fighting against a superior foe for the survival of their cultures and for the possession of lands that their peoples had lived on since, according to their folklore, the beginning.

A long time ago, when people learned I was an Indian, they would say, "I'm sorry, but you're an Indian." They said it to make me feel inferior. I learned afterwards that I was a racist for a while. But I learned from my elders you must love all people that walk on this earth. So I changed after I listened to the chiefs in the council talk about being a racist. Racism didn't come from the Indians. It came from the colonists. Indians didn't know what a racist was.

That comment by the late Leon Shenandoah, Tadodaho (high chief) or the Iroquois, has stuck with me, ever since I read it in a book written about the old chief's beliefs. Amerinds had none of the concepts of race and ethnicity that exist today, yet the puerile "A History of the White Race" portrays the many and largely unconnected conflicts between Europeans and Amerinds in stark terms: it was a "race war." I've read more than a few interviews with Native chiefs, shamans, and such, and there's no real hatred in them for whites, more a sense of pity that the "white brothers" (I've seen this term used more than once, largely by spiritual leaders) have lost their way (i.e. the gifts of the Creator).

Chief Shenandoah felt that the vast majority of whites were like this, lost and inventing new ways to replace the original ways that they lost in the mad scramble for land and power. He spoke of "Original Instructions" passed from the Creator, and kept alive in ceremonies by the Iroquois; when an Iroquois returns to the old ways, he likened it to returning to planting and farming (as agriculture prefigured in old Iroquois society). Whites, Shenandoah felt, were largely cut off from their own "Original Instructions" and needed to find a way back to them.

Far more than savages, the Amerinds have a very sublime belief in the balance between man, different races, and nature.

[Falkata]

WtF? A racial war?
The amerinds were killing each other since centuries before any european arrived to America .
That´s why the spaniards could conquer America with just a few hundreds hungry men. Because they´ve got the support of many oppresed amerindian tribes like the Tlaxcala for example

[Cato]

WtF? A racial war?
The amerinds were killing each other since centuries before any european arrived to America .
That´s why the spaniards could conquer America with just a few hundreds hungry men. Because they´ve got the support of many oppresed amerindian tribes like the Tlaxcala for example

Psuedo-history imo, like the nonsensical "Black Athena" thesis.

[Cato]

Psuedo-history imo, like the nonsensical "Black Athena" thesis.

I was referring to March of the Titans as psuedo-history, jut to make things clear. :)

[Alvarado]

The funny thing is that Kemp looks like a mongrel compared to muslim kings of Granada.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mWUJ2IySjL4/SrPhzYm6doI/AAAAAAAAAQ8/b42ikk5HuYM/S1600-R/z+-+playing++nazi.jpg


http://wa3.www.artehistoria.jcyl.es/granbat/jpg/CDA28909.jpg


http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/nt_1488/caras%20espanolas%201/alhambragranada.jpg


http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5512/alhambragranada3.jpg

[San Galgano]

Lol this passage about Rome:


The importation of these racially alien slaves impacted upon the demographics of Rome over a period of time. The numbers of slaves must have been tremendous: there were enough of them to form their own 70,000 strong army, as happened in 73 BC, when the slave leader Spartacus led the famous slave uprising. It took an entire Roman army to suppress that uprising - but still the practice of slavery continued, and was to ultimately cost the Romans their very existence itself.


To begin with Spartacus was a Thracian and his two fidel corporals were two celts-Crixus and Oenomaus- not africans, nor middle easterners.
Second i would like to know why his army of 70000 person should bother him since they could also be all thracians, celts, and germans for what we know about.
Third, the impact of slaves in Rome has been dismounted several times from a genetic point of view and for the low average life of slaves (17,5 years)
The fall of Rome was not caused by slaves or costume degenarations(i thought this was already clear, and specified many times from several serious historicians)but from new waves of people pushing from north east, a major germanization of the army asking for more power etc.
Wtf, the last years of the empire was caracterized by an army composed almost exclusively by Ghots and Franks and the last roman emperor was deposed by Odoacre who called himself "Rex Italie".

If middle easterners and africans were so much why didn't they take the power at the place of Germans?

[Cato]

Chapter 50 : The Seventh Great Race War - The Amerinds

I did some more digging online and came up with this speech by the famous Seneca Red Jacket, in defense of his native religion against Christian missionizers. Again, this is just my attempt to rebut the stupid notion that the Amerinds were, and are, savage louts (as March of the Titans suggests). Yes, I have Seneca (and Cayuga) forefathers, and no something of the old tribal lore; it offends me highly when some outside commentator with an agenda makes such bald assumptions about my red kin. :grumpy: The Seneca are one of the Six Nations of the Iroquois League, which has been what we'd call a democratic confederation for at least a millenium (or when Europe was still ruled by feudal monarchs claiming the divine right of kings).

"Red Jacket Defends Native American Religion, 1805."

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5790/

The entire speech is worth reading, but this is the important portion of Red Jacket's words.

Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit; if there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book (i.e. the Bible)?

Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers, and has been handed down from father to son. We also have a religion which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed down to us their children. We worship that way. It teacheth us to be thankful for all the favors we receive; to love each other, and to be united. We never quarrel about religion.

Brother, the Great Spirit has made us all; but he has made a great difference between his white and red children; he has given us a different complexion, and different customs; to you he has given the arts; to these he has not opened our eyes; we know these things to be true. Since he has made so great a difference between us in other things, why may we not conclude that he has given us a different religion according to our understanding. The Great Spirit does right; he knows what is best for his children; we are satisfied.

Brother, we do not wish to destroy your religion, or take it from you; we only want to enjoy our own.

[Joe McCarthy]

In fairness to Kemp, I don't think the Amerinds needed to yell 'RAHOWA!' before our struggle with them could be deemed a race war. All that is required is that we were of two different races and we were at war. That's all.

Moreover, even a cursory familiarity with the Indian wars will allow one to recognize that there was a great deal of racial animosity coming from the Amerind side.


Originally Posted by Falkata
WtF? A racial war?
The amerinds were killing each other since centuries before any european arrived to America .


By the same token, Africans were killing each other centuries before Europeans landed in Africa. Even so, only a deconstructionist type would say something like Blood River was not racial conflict.

[Cato]

Moreover, even a cursory familiarity with the Indian wars will allow one to recognize that there was a great deal of racial animosity coming from the Amerind side.

Something that also came from the Europeans, often with far more effective means of extermination than anything the Natives could accomplish. The Natives more or less lived in a heroic culture of sorts, with raiding and low-level skirmishes between tribes the order of warfare (rather than organized warfare in the European style).

Also, refer to my earlier post, where the Tadodaho, more or less suggests that racism as it is known nowadays is the creation of a peculiarly western mentality.

[Falkata]

By the same token, Africans were killing each other centuries before Europeans landed in Africa. Even so, only a deconstructionist type would say something like Blood River was not racial conflict.

It´s not a racial conflict, since there aren´t homogenous blocks of "blacks/amerindians vs whites" and the war wasn´t motivated by racial reasons It´s much more complicated than that.
Maybe you are one of the ones who always claim "racism!!" when a white punches a black in a random fight.

[Cato]

The armed conflicts in North America involving Europeans saw Natives fighting on several sides of these wars (i.e. the French and Indian War, the American Revolution, the War of 1812).

[Joe McCarthy]

Something that also came from the Europeans, often with far more effective means of extermination than anything the Natives could accomplish. The Natives more or less lived in a heroic culture of sorts, with raiding and low-level skirmishes between tribes the order of warfare (rather than organized warfare in the European style).

Tribes like the Apache were great guerilla fighters and that caused the US military a certain amount of angst, but even that was facilitated by the Spanish reintroduction of horses into the Americas in the 16th century.

As for whether the often bloodthirsty savagery of Amerinds qualifies as heroic or not... I suppose that's a matter of debate. I'm a bit skeptical about words like 'honor' and 'heroic' being used to describe indiscriminate mass carnage of all ages, sexes, and conditions as warfare. My view toward the Japanese is similar.

[Charles Martel]

The whole book is a joke and has no ounce of historical accuracy. If I was Iberian I would find it insulting and revolting to say they least.

[Curtis24]

The book is actually good at summarizing non-racial parts of history. However, any and all discussions of race in the book are bullshit.

[Joe McCarthy]

It´s not a racial conflict, since there aren´t homogenous blocks of "blacks/amerindians vs whites" and the war wasn´t motivated by racial reasons It´s much more complicated than that.


By this reasoning no conflict in history has been a race war. Indeed, even in Haiti the French had a good number of black and mulatto fighters on their side. Every civilizational conflict, including the Crusades, has seen members from the opposing hostile group joining the other side.

And the fact that a conflict is not entirely motivated by race tells us nothing. Every conflict is motivated by a confluence of causes. The war in Bosnia is pretty generally regarded as having been ethnic conflict, but few would interpret that to mean it didn't have other causes too.

[Curtis24]

The amerinds were killing each other since centuries before any european arrived to America .

The situation is of course more complicated. The truth is that they went through cycles of both peace and war. Immediately prior to the coming of Europeans, the Iroquois had been in the process of developing a Christian like morality and law code. Prior to that, they had lived in a prolonged "Dark Ages" that included cannibalism and ritualistic torture. Prior to that, they had lived peacefully for many centuries in small villages and engaged extensively in peaceful trade with each other. etc.

[Vasconcelos]

I've read a bit of it, it's wrong in so many ways I can't even bother to look at it again, what an ignorant.

[Osweo]

Horrible book written by a clueless nordicist dude who looks southern.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eZy7ckbzk28/R6p1NjcpdmI/AAAAAAAAAHU/rFr2MrMQsOQ/s400/arthur.JPG

Totally simplistic, innacurate... this book is an insult against historians
I couldn't agree more, but I would like to point out that the all too predictable mockery of his personal features isn't very helpful in defeating his arguments.

I mean, he's a stubby, chubby, rather silly looking person, and perhaps even I'm more 'Nordic' than him :p (and perhaps by his own reasoning he should bow down to what I say on historical matters!), but the most important thing is rather to reveal the basic errors at play in his scribblings. Going on about the facial features might be read as mere hurt pride or expected 'lashing out' from the sort he characterises as near sub-humans - almost proving him right, indeed.

I´m reading right now about Spain in this March of the Titans crap and I´ve already noticed a good set of nosensical statements
I didn't DARE read the Spanish section. It's infamous. Perhaps when I'm in the mood to be appalled, dismayed and generally pissed off, I'll have a look through it.

But what the FUCK does this joker think he's achieving with all this? Is he mistaken, an honest fool? Christ, he'd be a perfect 'plant' put by our enemies to discredit simple decent nationalism, but I fear that our enemies have all their work done for them by our own crazies. :tsk:

no wonder all the racialist sites on the net are so full of utter bullshit,ignorance of history,and crap in general.
Exactly. The Rojos must love the man. :mad:

respectfully - these criticisms
might demonstrate a more suasive affect,
if, accompanied by some evidence (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=247358&#post247358).

mere bald declarations (mockery)
might be considered insufficient by thoughtfull readers.
Oh man, he hints that the 'Latini' were 'Germans'... It's surely not worth my time to address EVERY point.

Acadian Driftwood has or had a signature on here something like;
'If your arguments are weak, just smother your opponant in bullshit.' And there's a good point there. You can attack by sheer quantity when quality is beyond you. Refuting bullshit is always harder work than concocting it.
Do you REALLY think the best response to such a stratagem is to waste your time going through every single point? I'm asking this as a serious question. I do at least try now and then to be sensible in what I choose to bother myself with, and what I will 'let slide'. I try to be at least partially 'politic'. As an example; Can certain bugbears of 20th Century history be defended and have they been slandered? Sure, but is it sensible and useful to expend effort on that at this particular moment in time? Might a concentration on certain issues do more harm than good? In such a vein, I believe that Kemp's work should be dismissed as quickly and effectively as possible, and we should move ON, rather than get bogged down in trivia.

As I see it, Kemp's message relies on him being perceived as a 'man who knows his history', a man who has penetrated to the true essence behing the facts. I find this hard to uphold, when I see what a poor master of facts he actually is.

There are STUPID mistakes in the book. REALLY STUPID! So much so, that it beggars belief. Isn't this enough to damn the whole message?

I'll take at least one of the points I summarily dismissed, to highlight again what the man is like with the facts;


Originally from Asia Minor (Turkey), the Khazars
Just plain wrong.
The Khazars were a mixture of several peoples. NONE of which were from Anatolia. The Turkic element was from the Central Asian Steppe. The Jewish element had mostly come up from the Fertile Crescent via the eastern Caucasus, there was a local element of Hunnic/Sarmatian background, and probably a Caucasian base too. Their capital was in the Volga delta, but they had old settlements along the River Terek (which passes through modern Chechnya.

How can we trust a man who makes such sorry mistakes? Has he done NO background reading? Has he read, but been too dense to understand the words in front of him? Did he write the whole book on the train to work, without any notes whatsoever? :tsk:

To my mind, habitually linking to it does a good deal to discredit yourself and anything you might say, which is a damned shame. :(


as suggested by ullarsskald (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=289330#post289330),
you may find this smilie appropriate:
http://www.clunk.org.uk/forums/images/smilies/exploding_head.gif
Heh, but I'm afraid it's more this; :(

[Curtis24]

I´m reading right now about Spain in this March of the Titans crap and I´ve already noticed a good set of nosensical statements

Yeah, this kind of outlines his major (flawed) argument, which is that the rise and fall of civilizations/empires is caused exclusively by racial changes.

Since we know that in the 17th century Spain became less powerful, and France and England more powerful, Kemp has to find a racial reason for it. The one he comes up with - mass miscegenation with black slaves combined with mass Gypsy immigration - is indeed laughable.

[Don]

The odds which prevailed at the Battle of Cajamarca were to be repeated even more dramatically a further four times:

at the Battle of Jauja, 80 Spaniards defeated an Inca army of tens of thousands;

at the Battle of Vilcashuaman, 30 Spaniards defeated tens of thousands of Inca opponents;

at the Battle of Vilaconoga, 10 Spaniards defeated an army of tens of thousands of Incas; and

at the battle of Cuzco, 40 Spaniards defeated the last great Inca army, also consisting of tens of thousands of Inca warriors.

Was the flu... the flu... :(

...





Germans the First Colonists
Up until 1529, White settlements in South America had been passing in nature: and despite the Spanish and Portuguese doing most of the exploring, it was a German, Bartholomous Welser, who led the first attempt at a White colony on the continent.

LOL,

just

LOL,


bliblabla dungeons & dragons

Ah... the nordicist tendencies to inventions and fantasies... we, spaniards don't have that problem, we only have to take a look at our history, kinda mythic and awesome, but real...

... the problem is that our stigma make us to, slowly, forget and ban our history (uncompatible with the big plans of ethnocide for us) in favour to the multikulti and invasion.

Anyway, these kind of childish inventions and style of telling our history is contraproductive for all of us.

[Liffrea]

It is, to put it mildly, poor and cringe worthy, I bought a copy from the BNP and spent most of my time either laughing or chocking, needless to say it is relegated to the can I give it away or e bay it shelf of my collection.

I’ve seen Kemp speak at a BNP meeting, it wasn’t about his book. He did make some reasonable points about nationalism but much of it was the usual groan worthy BS of those who probably know they will never have to do anything they say so why not say what they like.

Probably one reason I lost interest in the BNP and politics in general.

[Joe McCarthy]

I think it's safe to say that Kemp is a better thinker and writer than most of his critics on this thread. His blog is actually somewhat interesting.

[Ibericus]

I think it's safe to say that Kemp is a better thinker and writer than most of his critics on this thread. His blog is actually somewhat interesting.
indeed for a fantasy novel he would be better, but here there are people with much more knowledge of history than this clueless nutjob. It's not that hard though.

[Matritensis]

I think it's safe to say that Kemp is a better thinker and writer than most of his critics on this thread. His blog is actually somewhat interesting.


Possibly.Once he gets his facts straight and read some history books I see him getting all kinds of prizes easily.

[Aramis]

Kemp has a political agenda, nothing new there. What I find disgusting is his obvious abuse of serious scientific disciplines for self-promotion.

[Cato]

Kemp has a political agenda, nothing new there. What I find disgusting is his obvious abuse of serious scientific disciplines for self-promotion.

He also betrays a sound lack of folklore-based knowledge about the Amerinds, which is what sticks in my craw when he slyly insinutates that taking scalps and cannibalism were features universal to the red people.

[Great Dane]

I have not read the March of the Titans in its entirety. But the main theme I picked up was that race is destiny. Look at cities like Detroit and Cleveland, built by Northern Europeans. Non-whites, mainly blacks and later Hispanics, move in and destroy what the white race created. The same process is going on in California. Look at South Africa since the ANC took control. So maybe Nordic supermen didn't build the pyramids but that doesn't that ethnic and racial divisions have not contributed to the collapse of past empires.

[Pallantides]

As an avid student of history(I try to be objective too) I find 'March of the Titans' to be laughable Nordicist fantasy hogwash, it sort of remind me of the 17th Century Swedish Scholar Olaus Rudbeck's 'Atlantica':

Between 1679-1702, Rudbeck dedicated himself to contributions in historical-linguistics patriotism, writing a 3,000-page treatise in four volumes called Atlantica (Atland eller Manheim in Swedish) where he purported to prove that Sweden was Atlantis, the cradle of civilization, and Swedish the original language of Adam from which Latin and Hebrew had evolved.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Horrible book written by a clueless nordicist dude who looks southern.

Picking out a couple pics which makes him look bad...when I first met him in RL I didn't recognize him from the pics. In actuality he looks like department store manager from the area where I grew up, which is to say a standard Anglo-Germanic.


The Khazars were a mixture of several peoples. NONE of which were from Anatolia.

They were from the Black Sea region, and the area north of the black sea had been ruled by the Turks for some time before the Russians took control of the area in the 19th century, so that's not any sort of major discrepancy.


I’ve seen Kemp speak at a BNP meeting, it wasn’t about his book. He did make some reasonable points about nationalism but much of it was the usual groan worthy BS

That's standard for any political speech. They're mainly aimed at those who might be hearing that perspective for the first time, with an eye towards saying nothing too far out of the ordinary that might get quoted and twisted in a bad way by the media. No doubt any speech at a Lib/Lab/Con event would also be 'the usual groan worthy BS' to anyone who closely follows politics.

[Curtis24]

Its hard to understand what he's trying to accomplish. According to his theories, the only parts of Europe "unmixed" are England and Scandinavia(excluding Finland, of course).

[Lulletje Rozewater]

I think it's safe to say that Kemp is a better thinker and writer than most of his critics on this thread. His blog is actually somewhat interesting.

Chew on this one.
http://www.boervolk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1894

[Lulletje Rozewater]

THIS work has in essence to do with the difference between culture, race and nation-hood. Too often, either through ignorance, indifference or maliciousness, the distinctions between these three concepts are blurred, obscuring the real drivers of history and preventing an understanding of the true causes of events.

Kemp, the author of many articles and books pasted on the web-sites of StormFront and Freedom 2000, here sets out the gist of his intended argument. He argues that the true "drivers of history" are culture, race and nationhood. He seeks to draw attention to his study by attempting to place it in the realm of dispassionate scientific analysis different from the one done in "ignorance, indifference and maliciousness". He proposes to illuminate the "true causes of events" implicitly suggested as being culture, race and nationhood.

A race can be defined as a group of individuals who share broadly the same common genetic characteristics. In this way, broadly speaking, the peoples of Europe share a common genetic inheritance which can be seen through their physical appearance .

It is telling that Kemp bases his definition of race upon "genetic characteristics". This he translates into "physical appearance. The "genetic characteristics" is also linked to the broader use of "blood" as explanatory concept for nationalism, hence only those of "pure white blood" are acceptable.

The same applies broadly speaking, to the other main racial groups around the world: the Black (Negroid); the Mongolian (Asian) and so on. This common genetic heritage defines not only the different races' physical appearance, but also (and more controversially), their intelligence and cognitive abilities .

Kemp argues that genetic characteristics influences much more than the physical appearance of the "different races". He is arguing along the lines of what was believed and studied in the 1930s. Saul Dubow in his book, Scientific Racism tackles this issue. For example, there were various psychological studies which might have influenced the way people thought about African intelligence and behaviour. Dubow points to the new techniques of mental testing carried out in the twentieth century and to the debates about how educable Africans really were. Dubow talks about how apartheid ideologues in the twentieth century looked for means to prove scientifically black intellectual inferiority, but it proved much more difficult. But, even Verwoerd came to think in the 1930s that there was "no demonstrable differences in the intelligence of blacks and whites. Dubow also suggests that some of the aspects of the mental testing movement were incompatible with Christian National ideology. Genetic intelligence ideas however, does not have much import anymore in conventional circles, but it seems as if Kemp is arguing that it is possible to determine "intelligence and cognitive abilities" by means of genetic heritage.

Nationhood can be defined as the feeling of unity experienced by a group of individuals, and not necessarily racially defined. It is possible for a collection of individuals from different races to claim a common nationhood, depending on how that nation defines itself .

[Magister Eckhart]

There have been five pages of discussion on this piece of tripe?

Frankly I don't see the reason why we need a new "history" of the White Race. The Nordicists have their works of historical and pseudo-scientific fancy already completed for them in Chamberlain's The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century and Alfred Rosenberg's Myth of the Twentieth Century. The whole project strikes me as fundamentally masturbatory. But then, it is Nordicism, after all.

[Curtis24]

Well, Kemp is arguing for British nationalism and skews all his views to from that vantage point.

[Don]

I insist that the nordicist tendencies to fantasies and inventions are harmfull not only to the true main characters of the European history -that need no new mythic stories, but to recover their History from the shades where they are hidden by the infamous multikulti global and antieuropean powers.


Is better to recover and save from the ban of global multiculti and european ehtnocicer plans our History, despite most of european main events of history is not written by nordics or easterns, than fall in a childish nordicism of inventions, myths, dungeons & dragons;

- not only because we don't need it; (our reality overwhelmed these fictions reaching in many episodes the trait of epic and non-human deeds, we don't need to invent nothing, just save recover and share, as we europeans are).

- or because the real history is an incredible valuable resource of lessons that our ancestors left us to deal with our enemies, like islam or multicultural societies (inquisition, castes systems-new/old europeans, treacherous recurrent episodes and strategies by enemies...)

- but because that is exactly what the lower civilizations and races do: the amerindians with their fantasies and mythifications about the aztecs and incas, the muslims with their false glory of their Al-Andalus and the Islam, even the negros.


Recover our real history, now eventually banned and erased by this corrupted society. Our duty. It is written by our superior -even called Gods- european ancestors and their deeds need no invention or fantasy to reach the level of the Myths.

We are not sudacas, negros or muslims who need to scratch into the fantasies and lies to feel superior to other races and cultures.

And even more, day after day our real history is already beeing erased and demonised, with all that this implies.

It is not only a duty to honor our ancestors, but a need of every culture and race to keep its self-esteem high to keep high performance levels (like our malfunctioning self-defense).




Final Note:

I understand that the poor sudacas or the negros fall into these childish decadent movements celebrating fantastic and false stories about their past "glory" at the time they cry envious and attack the REAL HISTORY of Europeans (in particular spaniards)...

... but to see another european falling into this... -read nordicism- is a bad signal.
Indeed it is.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by SwordoftheVistula
That's standard for any political speech. They're mainly aimed at those who might be hearing that perspective for the first time, with an eye towards saying nothing too far out of the ordinary that might get quoted and twisted in a bad way by the media. No doubt any speech at a Lib/Lab/Con event would also be 'the usual groan worthy BS' to anyone who closely follows politics.

In one context you are correct……just not this one, this was a closed meeting for activists not an open meeting for members of the public. It was also another reason that I swiftly lost interest, out of some 150 members of the BNP in Derby the same six or seven turned out to leaflet, knock on doors, organise protests. Nationalism is 99.999999% keyboard warriors telling people what they would do if they could tear their arse away long enough from the screen. When Kemp came to speak there were probably seventy odd members in attendance, nice of them to turn up, not sure where they were when it came to facing down Asian gangs in Swadlincote trying to smash the stall up we were selling newspapers from or posting leaflets on cold December nights.

[Osweo]

Picking out a couple pics which makes him look bad...when I first met him in RL I didn't recognize him from the pics. In actuality he looks like department store manager from the area where I grew up, which is to say a standard Anglo-Germanic.
ER... Heroic knightly Iron-Age Herder type, surely?!

They were from the Black Sea region, and the area north of the black sea had been ruled by the Turks for some time before the Russians took control of the area in the 19th century, so that's not any sort of major discrepancy.
Oh for Christ's sake... :tsk: Kemp's actual words were "Asia Minor (Turkey)". The Black Sea ... is pretty big when you're close up to it, you know. Look into how big an enterprises were the Russo Turkish Wars, even once the Russians had taken control of the northern shore.

Major discrepancies.... "The Greeks, a people originally from the Nile Valley (Egypt)" would be a close enough parallel to the error made.

I just don't see why you're so ready to defend the indefensible here. Weird... How many embarrassing errors do you NEED to be shown!?

I suppose you agree with the general premise. But that doesn't mean you should defend ANY idiotic attempt to support it. You do your cause FAR more harm than good.

this was a closed meeting for activists not an open meeting for members of the public.
Liffrea, don't answer this if it's a bit too prying or whatever, but can I ask just how it is that Kemp got where he did in the party? To what does he owe his feted status there? Why are they so wedded to such a liability? Do they really not care about their reputation among other European nationalists who we ought to be working with, rather than doing our best to repell and insult? :(

[Joe McCarthy]

Well, Kemp is arguing for British nationalism and skews all his views to from that vantage point.

If you read his chapter on Nazi Germany, you won't get the feeling he's an apologist for the British.

[The Lawspeaker]

Right. I am reading some bits here and there now and I will only read more when I am in need of some comedy (because it's such non-sense that it cracks me up already).
If you want historical facts then this is a book to avoid as the black plague.

[Magister Eckhart]

Rename the book to March of the Idiots?

Well we don't want to be anti-White, just anti-Nordicist. :P

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Osweo
Liffrea, don't answer this if it's a bit too prying or whatever, but can I ask just how it is that Kemp got where he did in the party? To what does he owe his feted status there? Why are they so wedded to such a liability? Do they really not care about their reputation among other European nationalists who we ought to be working with, rather than doing our best to repell and insult?

It’s not prying, I honestly don’t know. I’ve only ever spoke to Nick Griffin when I asked him a question at a meeting in Nottingham (this one was public and, credit where its due, it was an open forum, anyone could ask him what they liked). I wasn’t anywhere near the seat of power, just a local activist who believed in helping out where I could. I don’t rate his book but from what I saw of Kemp when he spoke I don’t doubt he was committed and sincere in what he was saying, whether he was a “party man” or a “yes” man, who knows.

As for your other questions, well that’s best left to the BNP hierarchy to answer.

[SwordoftheVistula]

In one context you are correct……just not this one, this was a closed meeting for activists not an open meeting for members of the public. It was also another reason that I swiftly lost interest, out of some 150 members of the BNP in Derby the same six or seven turned out to leaflet, knock on doors, organise protests. Nationalism is 99.999999% keyboard warriors telling people what they would do if they could tear their arse away long enough from the screen. When Kemp came to speak there were probably seventy odd members in attendance, nice of them to turn up, not sure where they were when it came to facing down Asian gangs in Swadlincote trying to smash the stall up we were selling newspapers from or posting leaflets on cold December nights.

That's true, but it is also true of 'mainstream' politics as well. Hundreds or thousands will come out to a Sarah Palin book signing in town, but you're lucky to turn up a dozen of them to leaflet, knock on doors, make phone calls, etc at election time (and it's usually the same group of people). I suspect it's true on the left side as well to some extent, except the labor unions do a good job of arm-twisting their people into doing political work.



can I ask just how it is that Kemp got where he did in the party? To what does he owe his feted status there? Why are they so wedded to such a liability?

He's probably their most competent employee, in addition to giving his political speeches, he also runs their store (Excalibur) and news site.




Do they really not care about their reputation among other European nationalists who we ought to be working with, rather than doing our best to repell and insult? :(

I haven't seen any indication that he is regarded as a liability by other European nationalist parties. The BNP is in a group that includes France’s Front National, Hungary’s Jobbik, Italy’s Fiamma Tricolore, Britain’s British National Party, Ukraine’s Svoboda, Spain’s Movimiento Social Republicano, Belgium’s Front National du Belgique, Portugal’s Partido Nacional Renovador and Sweden’s Nationaldemokraterna.

I don't see why everyone with an inferiority complex has to come in and launch rabid attacks. If someone makes a thread like 'the glory of Rome', you don't see a bunch of northern Europeans coming on to threadcrap "NO WAY FUCK YOU YOU ALL SUX UR ALL WRONG!!!11!!"

[Falkata]

I don't see why everyone with an inferiority complex has to come in and launch rabid attacks. If someone makes a thread like 'the glory of Rome', you don't see a bunch of northern Europeans coming on to threadcrap "NO WAY FUCK YOU YOU ALL SUX UR ALL WRONG!!!11!!"

Because i doubt in that thread they talk about mongol scandinavians and superior meds creating Germany or the Netherlands.

[Pallantides]

I think one got to have some sort of inferiority complex when you make up stuff like 'March of Titans'



We don't need 'national myths' or 'historical fabrications' to know we are the best.:D
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/8660/germanictribesman.jpg

[Don]

I think one got to have some sort of inferiority complex when you make up stuff like 'March of Titans'

We don't need 'national myths' or 'historical fabrications' to know we are the best.:D


No, we don't. These are the Amerindian with their raza (an european word:confused:) and their aztecs and incas, the negros and the islamics...

...but not us.

We just need to save our history, eventually banned and forbidden by the powers of the multikulti-euroethnociders.

A rich resource of REAL deeds of our race, our ancestors and culture.
A great way to increase our already high levels of Immunodeficiency.

[Ibericus]

I don't see why everyone with an inferiority complex has to come in and launch rabid attacks. If someone makes a thread like 'the glory of Rome', you don't see a bunch of northern Europeans coming on to threadcrap "NO WAY FUCK YOU YOU ALL SUX UR ALL WRONG!!!11!!"
Maybe because he is making-up our history and considering us nothing less than a product of race-mixing between negroes and white goths ? :lightbul:

[Don]

A rich resource of REAL deeds of our race, our ancestors and culture.
A great way to increaseour already high levels of Immunodeficiency.

Error.

Fix:

A great way to fix our increasing levels of Immunodeficiency.

[Pallantides]

The Spanish and Swedish claims of Gothic origins led to a clash at the Council of Basel in 1434. Before the assembled cardinals and delegations could engage in theological discussion, they had to decide how to sit during the proceedings. The delegations from the more prominent nations argued that they should sit closest to the Pope, and there were also disputes over who was to have the finest chairs and who was to have their chairs on mats. In some cases they compromised so that some would have half a chair leg on the rim of a mat. In this conflict, Nicolaus Ragvaldi, bishop of Växjö, claimed that the Swedes were the descendants of the great Goths, and that the people of Västergötland (Westrogothia in Latin) were the Visigoths and the people of Östergötland (Ostrogothia in Latin) were the Ostrogoths. The Spanish delegation retorted that it was only the lazy and unenterprising Goths who had remained in Sweden, whereas the heroic Goths had left Sweden, invaded the Roman empire and settled in Spain.
:)

[Curtis24]

Because I can't help myself:


COLONIAL POLICY AND THE IMPORTATION OF BLACK SLAVES

Spanish colonial policy was different from colonial policies being pursued by other White nations in Europe (with the exception of Portugal, which followed the Spanish example).

Instead of colonizing their acquisitions with millions of their own people, the Spanish used their colonial possessions purely as economic resources. Spanish men who went to South America, the Caribbean or even North America, did not take families or Spanish women with them. The result was a massive degree of mixing with the local populations in the Spanish colonies, producing an overwhelmingly mixed race population still prevalent in Central and Southern America.

In addition to this, the Spaniards, like most other European nations, became users of Black slaves in its colonies - millions of Blacks were imported to South and Central America, adding a further dimension to the racial mix in those territories.

However, also in common with Portugal, a large number of Black slaves were imported into Spain itself. It is a matter of debate exactly how many of these slaves were absorbed into the Spanish population, and this admixture has contributed to the mixed race element found in Spain today.

GYPSIES - SPAIN'S FIVE CENTURIES LONG IMMIGRATION INVASION

As if the Black slaves and Moorish occupation was not enough, Spain's racial character has also been significantly affected by a five century long immigration of Gypsies, dark wandering nomads who had their origin in India itself. The Gypsies spread throughout Europe but concentrated in Spain and Romania, where their numbers are in the millions.

In Spain, the Gypsies occupied large areas to the point where significant parts of what is thought of as Spanish culture - for example the "Flamenco" dance - is in fact Gypsy in origin. In this way, much of what is regarded as Spanish is actually Gypsy, and it can be argued with a fair degree of certainty that the Gypsy element in Spain's current mixed race population is very high - possibly even a majority, given that the Spaniards expelled both Moors and other mixed race elements during that country’s history.

The official 1992 estimate of the number of Gypsies in Spain was around 600,000 - like all official figures, it is most likely an underestimation and does not include the vast number of mixed race Spanish/Gypsy people who display the classic "dark" appearance so incorrectly associated with true Spaniards.

It would however be incorrect to paint every single Spaniard with this same brush - many Spaniards did not mix with either the Moors, Black slaves or the Gypsies. These people remained strongest in the north of Spain.

SPAIN: THE RACIAL DIVISIONS EMERGE:





Spain: The racial divisions emerge. This famous painting, above, by El Greco, (1548 -1614), "Saint Martin and the Beggar", is a vivid depiction of the emerging division of Spain into those who had mixed with the non-White Muslims and those who had not. Saint Martin is portrayed as completely White. The beggar is clearly of mixed race. Insets compare the faces of the two characters in this painting.

SPAIN'S DECLINE AS A GREAT POWER FOLLOWS MISCEGENATION

The change in the racial face of Spain, combined with its disastrous European wars, brought about that country's decline as a great power, perfectly in line with the law that societies create cultures in the image of their populations, and change those societal norms as their populations change.

Spain is a significant example of this principle, because, like Italy after the Germanic Lombard invasion, that country essentially became a bi-racial nation: White in the North, with a gradually darkening population to the south.

By 1648, Spain had been so weakened that it conceded Dutch independence in that year. French provinces were handed back to France in 1659, and Portugal was once again granted independence in 1668.

[Curtis24]

Maybe because he is making-up our history and considering us nothing less than a product of race-mixing between negroes and white goths ? :lightbul:

and gypsies :p

[Matritensis]

In this way, much of what is regarded as Spanish is actually Gypsy, and it can be argued with a fair degree of certainty that the Gypsy element in Spain's current mixed race population is very high - possibly even a majority

Please don't tell the Gypsies that they are a majority in Spain,they are already trouble being a minority,thanks! :p

[Don]

In this way, much of what is regarded as Spanish is actually Gypsy, and it can be argued with a fair degree of certainty that the Gypsy element in Spain's current mixed race population is very high - possibly even a majority
Con dos cojones.

rzzFcyaLJVA
This is me and my "primos" playing and dancing old celtiberian traditional songs. We are spaniards and cristianos viejos.

[Ibericus]

In this way, much of what is regarded as Spanish is actually Gypsy, and it can be argued with a fair degree of certainty that the Gypsy element in Spain's current mixed race population is very high - possibly even a majority
There is something called 'genetics' that this Kemp idiot has probably never heard about in his life.

[Alvarado]

rzzFcyaLJVA
This is me and my "primos" playing and dancing old celtiberian traditional songs. We are spaniards and cristianos viejos.

You are Dinaric+Atlanto-med. More racially progressive than Kemp LOL.

[Don]

You are Dinaric+Atlanto-med. More racially progressive than Kemp LOL.

Gracias, but... do you like my dance and arts?

[Alvarado]

Gracias, but... do you like my dance and arts?

Of course sir, only progressive individuals can create superior art.

[Pallantides]

I prefer this Kemp
http://www.maybelline.com.au/ABOUT_US/Our_Models/Kemp_Muhl/medias/Kemp_big.jpg
http://choucroutegarnie.fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/kemp-muhl_gq-italia_msp2.jpg

[Curtis24]

Con dos cojones.

rzzFcyaLJVA
This is me and my "primos" playing and dancing old celtiberian traditional songs. We are spaniards and cristianos viejos.

Very interesting ;) Is it a war dance?

[Don]

Very interesting ;) Is it a war dance?

No, it is a sexual dance charged with ancient symbolisms that hits hardly into the deepest corners of women's sexuality, making them fall forever to the executor's arms

That's how the first man started the first hareem, as you know, classical spanish as well, as the magic carpets.

http://www.gastrosoler.com/haren%20de%20wkipedia.jpg
This is me, with my harem. The painting was made by Arthur Kemp's himself (my cousin), just after killing with my scimitar the 5 head dracoctopus of Torromposhanjorst mounted in my magic carpet... but that is another history... probably told by my cousin soon.

[Óttar]

Reminds me of 33' Freemasonic historian CW Leadbetter, who, writing in the early 20th century, among other extravagant and ridiculous claims, believed the Greeks were Celts.

[Curtis24]

That is a real video of you, right?

[SwordoftheVistula]

rzzFcyaLJVA


Regardless of geography, whoever is in that video is in no way, shape, or form anything resembling white. When I and/or Arthur Kemp go out to a pub in England, we both are assumed to be English, local or perhaps from maybe a few dozen miles away. The dude in that vid would not fit in anywhere in England, or the [white] US or anywhere in northern Europe and would be automatically assumed as 'foreign'.



http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=296127&postcount=61

it was only the lazy and unenterprising Goths who had remained in Sweden, whereas the heroic Goths had left Sweden, invaded the Roman empire and settled in Spain

This now applies to all of Europe: It is now only the lazy and unenterprising Goths who remain in Europe, whereas the heroic have left, invading and settling other continents.

[Magister Eckhart]

Regardless of geography, whoever is in that video is in no way, shape, or form anything resembling white. When I and/or Arthur Kemp go out to a pub in England, we both are assumed to be English, local or perhaps from maybe a few dozen miles away. The dude in that vid would not fit in anywhere in England, or the [white] US or anywhere in northern Europe and would be automatically assumed as 'foreign'..

Actually, the person in that video does fit the contemporary definition of "white", though he perhaps would not fit that paradigm a century ago (but then, "whites" from a century ago would likely not have been considered such a century before that). It's a shifting paradigm. Any notion of a constant "white race" throughout history is pure fantasy. It is cultures which are constant, not biological races or the social paradigms based on that biological understading of "race". I would, in fact, submit that there is no such thing at all of a "white" race; a European race, perhaps, if one wishes to view "race" as a spiritual reality, or a Caucasian race if one wishes to view "race" biologically.

[Matritensis]

Regardless of geography, whoever is in that video is in no way, shape, or form anything resembling white. When I and/or Arthur Kemp go out to a pub in England, we both are assumed to be English, local or perhaps from maybe a few dozen miles away. The dude in that vid would not fit in anywhere in England, or the [white] US or anywhere in northern Europe and would be automatically assumed as 'foreign'.



http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=296127&postcount=61

it was only the lazy and unenterprising Goths who had remained in Sweden, whereas the heroic Goths had left Sweden, invaded the Roman empire and settled in Spain

This now applies to all of Europe: It is now only the lazy and unenterprising Goths who remain in Europe, whereas the heroic have left, invading and settling other continents.

The guy in the video is a gypsy from Spain.

[Curtis24]

oh... so its not really Don?:embarrassed

anyway, i kinda thought it was cool

[Curtis24]

If you read his chapter on Nazi Germany, you won't get the feeling he's an apologist for the British.

Actually, I'd argue against that. The main theme of his later chapters, is that Europeans have screwed themselves through imperialism and creating immigrant classes.

On his blog, he goes on about how apartheid hurt whites more than it did blacks, because whites got used to high lifestyle while having blacks do the work for them.

[Matritensis]

oh... so its not really Don?:embarrassed

anyway, i kinda thought it was cool


LOL,you were not kidding? :thumb001:

[Don]

wrkmTWIIIn4

These (and the previous) are gitanos, in english gypsies, they came from India.

We kicked the moors and the jews but not these gitanos, who stay in our lands living a different lifestyle (quite parasitic, indeed) even with their own laws and language (caló or romaní).

I know for some americans, whose level of unknowledge about the homeland europe reaches shamefull levels, the spaniards could be represented by some kind of these, as has been proven in this very same thread, but sadly I must inform that I was not the one of the video, neither he fits nowhere in Spain without the seal of Gitano.

So, I'm not the one of the video, I am not gitano, neither a hollywood movie spaniard (those jews really are resentfull with us still)

My profile says "celtiberian/visigothic", as major part of Spaniards.
These guys came 500 years ago from India, Asia and live in ghettos, in almost everycountry of Europe.

You guys, really surprise me sometimes. I guess you believe as well that I killed a dracoctopus with magic name.

[Ibericus]

That is a real video of you, right?


Regardless of geography, whoever is in that video is in no way, shape, or form anything resembling white. When I and/or Arthur Kemp go out to a pub in England, we both are assumed to be English, local or perhaps from maybe a few dozen miles away. The dude in that vid would not fit in anywhere in England, or the [white] US or anywhere in northern Europe and would be automatically assumed as 'foreign'.



http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=296127&postcount=61

it was only the lazy and unenterprising Goths who had remained in Sweden, whereas the heroic Goths had left Sweden, invaded the Roman empire and settled in Spain

This now applies to all of Europe: It is now only the lazy and unenterprising Goths who remain in Europe, whereas the heroic have left, invading and settling other continents.


Actually, the person in that video does fit the contemporary definition of "white", though he perhaps would not fit that paradigm a century ago (but then, "whites" from a century ago would likely not have been considered such a century before that). It's a shifting paradigm. Any notion of a constant "white race" throughout history is pure fantasy. It is cultures which are constant, not biological races or the social paradigms based on that biological understading of "race". I would, in fact, submit that there is no such thing at all of a "white" race; a European race, perhaps, if one wishes to view "race" as a spiritual reality, or a Caucasian race if one wishes to view "race" biologically.

http://lidercorp.org.mx/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

For GOD's sake, americans are so fuckin ignorant. That dude in the video is fucking GYPSY, not a Spaniard.

[Pallantides]

Yes, it's fairly obvious.

[Alvarado]

Actually, the person in that video does fit the contemporary definition of "white", though he perhaps would not fit that paradigm a century ago (but then, "whites" from a century ago would likely not have been considered such a century before that).

Speaking of paradigms, Kemp isn't the paradigm of whiteness, either. In fact, he isn't even an example of the average nordic european. Otherwise, "germanics" shouldn't identify themselves with lighter traits. Kemp is a trouble for preservation of "recessive" traits.

Not to mention that the guy in the video is a gypsy.

[Cato]

For GOD's sake, americans are so fuckin ignorant. That dude in the video is fucking GYPSY, not a Spaniard.

That was sort of my guess; he has the general shoddy, shifty, and overall uncouth appearance of other gypsies that I've seen in pictures.

[Don]

Sincerely, any american that talks about Europe and claims its origins, MUST know the basics about Europe and its main Countries.

The gypsies are not european. Basic. They live in Ghettos, isolated from "payos" (spaniards) and were the only foreign ethnic not expelled from Spain after cleansing by Inquisition (not as Jews and Muslims) by many reasons.
They arrived 500 years ago.

http://www.vurdon.it/itinerario.jpg

http://www.elboomeran.com/upload/fotos/blogs_entradas/una_familia_gitana_med.jpg

[Curtis24]

For GOD's sake, americans are so fuckin ignorant. That dude in the video is fucking GYPSY, not a Spaniard.

I only took it a face value, because I thought there was a chance he *wasn't* kidding and didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I know thats not what most Spanish look like, as our numerous discussions on this have shown.

[Ibericus]

I only took it a face value, because I thought there was a chance he *wasn't* kidding and didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I know thats not what most Spanish look like, as our numerous discussions on this have shown.
It's so damn obvious that guy was gypsy, even the music and dance is gypsy. Don was playing sarcasm, because according to Kemp spaniards are gypsy ;)

[Curtis24]

WEll I thought maybe the Don was just self-delusional or something, and didn't want to hurt his feelings.

Anyway ,sorry the Don. Nothing about your posts or personality indicates to me that you are gypsy or non-white, I Just made a mistake.

[Don]

Curtis, I was just joking, maybe laughing at the american's ignorance about Spain... but you really amazed me by falling in the joke :)

My feelings are not hurt, just a little disappointed by the obvious reason that some of you americans should do your homework, -not pallamedes or others who are more informed- (I know jewish don't make easy this with their aculturation made in Hollywood) regarding Europe and its main countries, cultures and ethnic groups, natives and foreigners, as in this case, the gypsies, if you want to have coherence and strength in your claims of your "europicity".


Now a test to see if the lesson is learnt:

1.- Gitano is a castilian word that means:
a) Spaniard
b) I only like the mushrooms that make me see magic things.
c) Gypsy

2.- Gitanos came to Europe from:
a) Asia, a nomadic caste from India.
b) An Ufo
c) Spain

3.- Find the Spaniard among the indians (old Gitanos).(enlarge if needed).
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2mi6voUK000/S_VhpqeJLRI/AAAAAAAAAXc/RoU5ih9VzVQ/s1600/poster_vicente_sin_logos%5B1%5D.jpg

I know I had a little fun by the ignorance of some americans about spain... but not offense intended. :)
You are mainly victims of resentfull jewish propaganda and black legends that really have the effects intended, to keep us divided among other ones, as the vengeance... a personal one between them and us... but that is another history.

If you want to see a pic from me, there is one in my profile, I'm not the one of the dancing video, nor the moor of the harem.

[The Lawspeaker]

1. C
2.A
3. I am not sure.. I think it's the old guy dead in center am I right ?


Can I go on for the washing machine now ?

[Don]

1. C
2.A
3. I am not sure.. I think it's the old guy dead in center am I right ?


Can I go on for the washing machine now ?

Shhhh!
This test is for our friends the americans.
No washing machine, holandés, too easy for you.

[Curtis24]

The dark-skinned one are Southern Spaniards, right? ;)

[Psychonaut]

Speaking of paradigms, Kemp isn't the paradigm of whiteness, either. In fact, he isn't even an example of the average nordic european. Otherwise, "germanics" shouldn't identify themselves with lighter traits. Kemp is a trouble for preservation of "recessive" traits.

Do you honestly think that the lack of an attribute in he who is making the argument disallows him from making an argument involving that attribute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque)?

[Alvarado]

Do you honestly think that the lack of an attribute in he who is making the argument disallows him from making an argument involving that attribute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque)?

In this particular case, yes. Kemp's theory is based primarily on colour hierarchy. Then, according to this logic , Kemp's views are conditioned by his low racial quality.

[Psychonaut]

In this particular case, yes. Kemp's theory is based primarily on colour hierarchy. Then, according to this logic , Kemp's views are conditioned by his low racial quality.

http://forums.theashtray.net/Smileys/fess_smileys/Facepalm_emote_gif.gif

Please demonstrate why his skin color affects the validity of his argument.

[Alvarado]

http://forums.theashtray.net/Smileys/fess_smileys/Facepalm_emote_gif.gif

Please demonstrate why his skin color affects the validity of his argument.

It's easy:

Dark colour=Low racial quality.

Low racial quality= Ineptitude to make valid arguments.

Racial determinism.

[Ibericus]

http://forums.theashtray.net/Smileys/fess_smileys/Facepalm_emote_gif.gif

Please demonstrate why his skin color affects the validity of his argument.
Ask this to Mr.Kemp himself, he knows the answer.

[Osweo]

Do you honestly think that the lack of an attribute in he who is making the argument disallows him from making an argument involving that attribute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque)?

I think it makes the whole thing even more absurd, and raises awkward questions about the man's motives and character.

As a simplification;

* People with X were and are great. They ought to have some sort of privileged position in the future.
* I haven't got X. I am arguing for somebody to get advantage over me.
- This seems like a rather worrying personal trait to me. I don't like or trust psychiatric terms that are well known these days, like 'masochism' and 'self-hate' or whatever, as though they were clearly understood and categorisable things, but I can still see that the man has some messed up ideas. He's willing to sacrifice himself on the altar of 'the Titans', in other words. Fanaticism?

* I'm part of a movement that is trying to get us to respect our traditions, to give consideration to our forebears and what they would find a betrayal now - i.e. 'giving the franchise to the dead' as somebody put it.
* If I dismiss my own type in favour of another, I'm disparaging my own ancestors.
- There's a distinct lack of pietas here (in the Virgilian sense).

* People with X deserve this that and the other.
* Yet only _I_, without X, am arguing for this, sticking my neck out on the line in the process in a fight against a powerful consensus.
- People with X don't seem interested in claiming their 'birthright'. They lack something. Or rather, merely having X is NOT after all a good indicator of greatness. Perhaps people without X are more deserving of equal respect than they are held to be in this scheme, seeing as how they are also among the ones that are resisting the current situation?

* Those without X shouldn't be suffered to control our fates.
* Damn, I'm one myself! :eek: Ahem.... Don't listen to me!!!
****

Kemp's entire system relies on gross characterisations of the worth/personality/ability of people based on certain slight subracial differences. By his own standards, shouldn't we dismiss his opinions as being conditioned by his stubby alpinised frame (and therefore soul/character/mind)? If those who don't conform to the racial standards implied ARE capable of providing good sound leadership to protect their people, I'm led to wonder just what ARE the benefits of this certain desired X phenotype?! Is it ONLY AESTHETIC? I have seen nothing to convince me of a correlation between nordidness and usefulness. I would submit that aesthetic questions should be of a VERY low priority in our present live-or-die straits. :ohwell:
.................................................. .................................................

Like I said a few posts ago, I didn't want to get drawn into the 'looks' discussion, given that it's easier and supposedly more intellectually convincing to blow the props from under his scheme by looking at the details he supplies to demonstrate it.

But given that there's SO much absurdity in the body of the work, we may be forgiven for chuckling at the other more incidental (?) absurd aspects of the whole situation.

[Psychonaut]

It's easy:

Dark colour=Low racial quality.

Low racial quality= Ineptitude to make valid arguments.

Racial determinism.

So, you think that because he is a believer in racial determinism, his skin color affects his ability to construct this very argument? You do see that your argument here rests entirely on the very argument which you are attempting to denounce (your interpretation of Kemp's) being true, right? Arguments are shown to be invalid by disproving either the premises or by demonstrating that the conclusion does not follow from the premises. What you're doing here is a really silly type of question begging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question).

Post Script:

To expand...

The argument: If A (Kemp's hypothesis of hierarchy), and B (Kemp is an untermensch), therefore C (Kemp's hypothesis is invalid).

If this argument probes C to be true, then the veracity of C necessarily invalidates A, which is itself being used to prove the truth of C. This cancels out the entire argument, making it a null proposition.

[Alvarado]

So, you think that because he is a believer in racial determinism, his skin color affects his ability to construct this very argument? You do see that your argument here rests entirely on the very argument which you are attempting to denounce (your interpretation of Kemp's) being true, right?

Of course, but it's his contradiction, not mine. I'm putting into practice, his own contradictory argument.

[Matritensis]

Is it ONLY AESTHETIC?

Voilà.

[Osweo]

The argument: If A (Kemp's hypothesis of hierarchy), and B (Kemp is an untermensch), therefore C (Kemp's hypothesis is invalid).

If this argument probes C to be true, then the veracity of C necessarily invalidates A, which is itself being used to prove the truth of C. This cancels out the entire argument, making it a null proposition.

Jmmm.... ?Que?





:p

Anyway, it doesn' t matter, as the briefest of glances is enough to see that his mastery of the data (required to adequately demonstrate the historical functioning of this hierarchical system) is, at best, shite. ;)

[Don]

If subject A makes a declaration implying X trait, something that necessarely invalidates C only while B is in contradiction with the proportionality of X trait of Kemp, then:
http://starviewer.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/superdualidad.jpg

So, it is proven my conformity with the idea that Kemp is a cretin.

Although... A>B

[Psychonaut]

If subject A makes a declaration implying X trait, something that necessarely invalidates C only while B is in contradiction with the proportionality of X trait of Kemp, then:
http://starviewer.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/superdualidad.jpg

So, it is proven my conformity with the idea that Kemp is a cretin.

Although... A>B

Very nice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule). :thumb down

[Joe McCarthy]

Israeli women:

http://trueslant.com/stephanfaris/files/2010/05/israeli-women.jpg

Spanish women:

http://www.physics.purdue.edu/nanophys/newpage10-03/gallery/spanish_friends.jpg

[Don]

Very nice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule). :thumb down

You can't expect clever products from me.

Look:
Modern Spaniards are gypsi/moor half-whites(P) according to Kemp's ideas (C)

So, if:

Don = 100% Spaniard

Then:

DON=Poo+Crap

And in consequence we can conclude

Don's posts = Poo.poo

[Alvarado]

Israeli women:

http://trueslant.com/stephanfaris/files/2010/05/israeli-women.jpg

Spanish women:

http://www.physics.purdue.edu/nanophys/newpage10-03/gallery/spanish_friends.jpg

Mine are better:

Spanish:

http://contratarfamosos.centraldelespectaculo.com/imgs/famosos/big/anne-igartiburu.jpg


Israeli:

http://malagaes.com/imagenes/articulos/145Noa.jpg


It's funny!

[Joe McCarthy]

I still remember being struck by how much lighter the Israeli team was than the Spanish team during the opening ceremonies of the Olympics in Athens a few years ago.

[Alvarado]

I remember this:

http://www.andaluzabaloncesto.org/ficheros/imagennoticia5863_0.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/olympics/puertorico73.jpg

[Treffie]

Sincerely, any american that talks about Europe and claims its origins, MUST know the basics about Europe and its main Countries.

The gypsies are not european. Basic. They live in Ghettos, isolated from "payos" (spaniards) and were the only foreign ethnic not expelled from Spain after cleansing by Inquisition (not as Jews and Muslims) by many reasons.

Not all live in ghettos, most of the Gypsies that came over prior to the EU have now assimilated here.

[Ibericus]

I still remember being struck by how much lighter the Israeli team was than the Spanish team during the opening ceremonies of the Olympics in Athens a few years ago.
I doubt it :

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2006/01/skin-reflectance-of-selected-world.html

[Cato]

Sincerely, any american that talks about Europe and claims its origins, MUST know the basics about Europe and its main Countries.

The gypsies are not european. Basic. They live in Ghettos, isolated from "payos" (spaniards) and were the only foreign ethnic not expelled from Spain after cleansing by Inquisition (not as Jews and Muslims) by many reasons.
They arrived 500 years ago.

http://www.vurdon.it/itinerario.jpg

http://www.elboomeran.com/upload/fotos/blogs_entradas/una_familia_gitana_med.jpg

Damn, is it me, or do the gypsies look like the scummier, lowlife sorts of Amerindians that I see every so often?! :eek:

[Wyn]

Not all live in ghettos, most of the Gypsies that came over prior to the EU have now assimilated here.

Can they be considered European however?

One thing's for sure though, the gypsies as we see them now are radically different to the gypsies of old, i.e. our grandparents' era. They have must have mixed massively with the local population. The gypsies that emigrate to GB from -wherever it is in Eastern Europe they're mostly coming from- and their ways are quite unlike the traditional gypsies in the British mind, who were seen in an almost quaint light.

[Ibericus]

Can they be considered European however?

One thing's for sure though, the gypsies as we see them now are radically different to the gypsies of old, i.e. our grandparents' era. They have must have mixed massively with the local population. The gypsies that emigrate to GB from -wherever it is in Eastern Europe they're mostly coming from- and their ways are quite unlike the traditional gypsies in the British mind, who were seen in an almost quaint light.
Wrong. They are genetically distinguishable, by their heavy admixture of Indian in autosomal , and typical indian haplogroups. This of course, besides appearance, lifestyle, etc.

[Joe McCarthy]

I remember this:

http://www.andaluzabaloncesto.org/ficheros/imagennoticia5863_0.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/olympics/puertorico73.jpg

The difference of course being that no one is claiming that American niggers are 'white' or whatever.

[Curtis24]

Skin color is the most valid way to define the white or European race. But remember that the vast majority of South Europeans have light skin.

Kemp's model is basically "last people to invade an area, make the biggest racial component of that area". So for instance, since Greece was invaded by Turks, Greeks must be racially Mideastern/Turkish. Etc. Of course, genetics studies show this isn't true.

[Joe McCarthy]

I doubt it :

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2006/01/skin-reflectance-of-selected-world.html

One has to recall that Ashkenazi Jews are a minority of Israel's population. Non-Ashkenazis are naturally going to weigh down Israel's standing. The Israeli team appeared to be heavily Ashkenazi.

My initial picture though was a pretty representative portrayal of Ashkenazi Jews vs. Spaniards.

[Alvarado]

The difference of course being that no one is claiming that American niggers are 'white' or whatever.

Who is claiming that jews are "white"? I'm not.

[Ibericus]

Skin color is the most valid way to define the white or European race. But remember that the vast majority of South Europeans have light skin.

Kemp's model is basically "last people to invade an area, make the biggest racial component of that area". So for instance, since Greece was invaded by Turks, Greeks must be racially Mideastern/Turkish. Etc.
Yeah, but remember that the superiority of our breed is not based on hair-colour and other shallow crap : It's based on reality, history, achievements.

[Curtis24]

Yeah, but remember that the superiority of our breed is not based on hair-colour and other shallow crap : It's based on reality, history, achievements.

Right, but physical traits tend to correlate with those more likely to achieve, just a fact. Those with European-colored skin for some reason have more achievements than others; why, I couldn't say.

[Ibericus]

One has to recall that Ashkenazi Jews are a minority of Israel's population. Non-Ashkenazis are naturally going to weigh down Israel's standing. The Israeli team appeared to be heavily Ashkenazi.

My initial picture though was a pretty representative portrayal of Ashkenazi Jews vs. Spaniards.
Who cares, Ashkenazis are not even european genetically nor culturally.

Btw you are wrong that Ashkenazis are a minority, they represent 80% of Jews

[Treffie]

Can they be considered European however?

I'd call them Europeans, especially when they look like this

Link (http://www.valleystream.co.uk/romhome.htm)


The gypsies that emigrate to GB from -wherever it is in Eastern Europe they're mostly coming from- and their ways are quite unlike the traditional gypsies in the British mind, who were seen in an almost quaint light.

Yup. There was a romanticism attached to the traditional Gypsies, at least they were considered resourceful. We used to have a `rag and bone` man where I used to live, my parents couldn't wait for them to come round every Friday to take away all our unwanted stuff.

[Joe McCarthy]

Who cares, Ashkenazis are not even european genetically nor culturally.

Yet they're still lighter than Spaniards on the whole, and I think it's worth asking why that is.

Though Ashkenazi Jews are heavily infused with European culture and genes.

I actually don't consider them 'white' or whatever. But if anything that further hurts the Spanish case.

[Vasconcelos]

Hey look it's the same guy trolling Iberians again.

[Eldritch]

Damn, is it me, or do the gypsies look like the scummier, lowlife sorts of Amerindians that I see every so often?! :eek:

Native Americans are paragons of dignity and virtue compared to gypsies.

[Cato]

The difference of course being that no one is claiming that American niggers are 'white' or whatever.

The dude on the far right of this pic looks like the Rock, sort of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_Johnson

[Ibericus]

Yet they're still lighter than Spaniards on the whole, and I think it's worth asking why that is.

Though Ashkenazi Jews are heavily infused with European culture and genes.

I actually don't consider them 'white' or whatever. But if anything that further hurts the Spanish case.
What Spanish case ? There is no spanish case. Btw I have already demonstrated to you with a scientific link that it's not true they are lighter but whatever. That is where Ashkenazis cluster genetically compared to europeans

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png

http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

[Alvarado]

Yet they're still lighter than Spaniards on the whole, and I think it's worth asking why that is.

Any source?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Avshalom_Elitzur_Picture.jpg

[Pallantides]

Native Americans are paragons of dignity and virtue compared to gypsies.

Native Americans are awesome, especially the Sioux.
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Lakota/lakota22.jpg

[Vasconcelos]

Don't you know why Spanish are darker?? It's because of the miscegenation with african slaves in Spain, everyone knows that! It's clearly visible on their facial features and DNA, only blind men can't see it.

[Osweo]

One thing's for sure though, the gypsies as we see them now are radically different to the gypsies of old, i.e. our grandparents' era. They have must have mixed massively with the local population.
Our old Gypsies had been filtered by the entire length of Europe. And various social crises in our history meant that a lot of English ended up slipping into the Gypsy identity. Enclosures, Clearances, shifts in industry... I bet there were distinct divisions among the catch all category of Gypsy, as there still are in some European countries, depending on admixture and so on.

The gypsies that emigrate to GB from -wherever it is in Eastern Europe they're mostly coming from- and their ways are quite unlike the traditional gypsies in the British mind, who were seen in an almost quaint light.
I think you're over romanticising here.

The old Gypsies are renowned in song for kidnappings, of women and babies.

Seven gypsies all in a row,
They were brisk and bonny O,
They rode till they came to the Earl of Castle's halls
And there they sang so sweetly O.

The Earl of Castle's lady came down
And all her maids before her o.
As soon as her pretty pretty face
They cast a Gabriel* o'er her.

(* a cloak - they kidnapped her.)
I've seen other versions of the same song that gloss this over, from later more 'gentile' times. Some say she went of her own volition, others imply an enchantment. This version is more mundane though...

From our own time, I was told lots of things by my Gran about their curses...

We used to have a `rag and bone` man where I used to live, my parents couldn't wait for them to come round every Friday to take away all our unwanted stuff.
:eek: FAR from being a Gypsy only profession! My own Grandad had his horse and cart and went a totting. :thumb001:

[Wyn]

I think you're over romanticising here.

Possibly, but consider the way they were viewed traditionally in Britain, to how they're considered by Eastern European people; extremely dangerous and problematic. Maybe I'm romanticising because I'm used to their romanticised image? :shrug:



The old Gypsies are renowned in song for kidnappings, of women and babies.

Seven gypsies all in a row,
They were brisk and bonny O,
They rode till they came to the Earl of Castle's halls
And there they sang so sweetly O.

The Earl of Castle's lady came down
And all her maids before her o.
As soon as her pretty pretty face
They cast a Gabriel* o'er her.(* a cloak - they kidnapped her.)
I've seen other versions of the same song that gloss this over, from later more 'gentile' times. Some say she went of her own volition, others imply an enchantment. This version is more mundane though...

I didn't mean that they were seen as little enchanted fairies or anything :D but that their image was unlike that of the modern (to us) gypsy. Obviously, stories about kidnappings don't exactly count as quaint or anything, but still...


From our own time, I was told lots of things by my Gran about their curses...


Yeah, I know of the "gypsies curse". That's definitely a romanticisation (i.e. their association with it even into modern times) if nothing else. I don't think its curses we have to worry about with the authentic gypsies coming over these days.

[Treffie]

:eek: FAR from being a Gypsy only profession! My own Grandad had his horse and cart and went a totting. :thumb001:

I didn't say that it was a Gypsy profession exclusively, I'm saying that the one who lived in my area was.

[Don]

I'd call them Europeans, especially when they look like this

Link (http://www.valleystream.co.uk/romhome.htm)



Yup. There was a romanticism attached to the traditional Gypsies, at least they were considered resourceful. We used to have a `rag and bone` man where I used to live, my parents couldn't wait for them to come round every Friday to take away all our unwanted stuff.


Resourceful, yes they are.

The only problem is this: if they have no Host populations to parasite, they have no Resources. Not self-sufficient people they are.

At least, for the ones of Spain there is a recurrent word that they use when interact with "payos" (Whites) -individual or institucionally- : DAME ("gimme")
Hey! And they do it without shame! They value to live at other's expenses as a prove of superiority and smartness.

Just the opposite to our opinion, so we see it from our views, without real empathy and "tolerate them" because an unfounded feeling of pity.

http://perso.wanadoo.es/semounomonstruo/ima/dameargo.gif

Well... that when they decide to ask first.

Very romantic, yes.

There are exceptions, I know one mestizo very noble, proud gypsy but a hard worker.

[Ibericus]

Come on, you guys are very insensitive. Gypsyes are very romantic..

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:DUtmFhKItxfPwM:http://www.foroswebgratis.com/imagenes_foros/9/0/1/8/6/368644feo%20barbudo.jpg&t=1

http://www.elboomeran.com/upload/fotos/blogs_entradas/un_grupo_de_gitanos_de_la_antigua_yugoslavia_en_un _campamento_de_la_zona_de_casilino_cerca_de_roma._ med.jpg

[Wyn]

I don't think you understand the point being made. That is not the traditional image of the gypsy in this country; that's the whole point.

[Don]

Yet they're still lighter than Spaniards on the whole, and I think it's worth asking why that is.
Though Ashkenazi Jews are heavily infused with European culture and genes.
I actually don't consider them 'white' or whatever. But if anything that further hurts the Spanish case.

This guy is a troll, just because no one can really reach the levels of ignorance required to say these things and be able to write a language.

[Pallantides]

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1856505.ece
Incan bones found in Østfold
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/1/1c/20050307061231!%C3%98stfold_kart.png

whoa...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA).PNG

[Vasconcelos]

http://www.tshirts-store.co.uk/s2g/tshirt_store/Pikey%20copy.jpg

[Osweo]

Possibly, but consider the way they were viewed traditionally in Britain, to how they're considered by Eastern European people; extremely dangerous and problematic. Maybe I'm romanticising because I'm used to their romanticised image? :shrug:

I didn't mean that they were seen as little enchanted fairies or anything :D but that their image was unlike that of the modern (to us) gypsy. .

Seems to me that the 'harmless' Gypsy is coeval with the period in our history when law enforcement was at its peak, sentences toughest and attitudes firmest. 1800 to 1970 say. The 'Pikie' phenomenon seems to have been developing gradually into something worse since then, without outside influence. Traditions older than that are rather more ominous (though a more rural society kept certain things at bay). Think of the hordes of beggars that terrorised Tudor England; Hark hark, the dogs do bark, the beggars are coming to town... By the height of the Enlightenment, such things were getting pretty well clamped down on.

Eastern Europe on the other hand is an example of a highly pressurised system that has suddenly burst. Things are worse there on that account. The Nineties in many parts there were the worst dog eat dog time in Europe for a long while, and unpleasant 'adaptations' we might call them, from an ecological point of view, flourished.

And the 'filtration' I referred to has played its role, the Balkan Gypsy being the 'purest' Subcontinental. Underdeveloped urbanism in the east kept the states there from exerting the pressures to assimilate that were experienced in the west.

[Beorn]

I don't think you understand the point being made. That is not the traditional image of the gypsy in this country; that's the whole point.

I have noticed that continental Europeans differ from us English in what they imagine Gypsies to be. It is the point by which all arguments of Gypsies extend from between us.

Play to the dumb standard and just put 'Romani' in front of the word. :D

[Alvarado]

This guy is a troll, just because no one can really reach the levels of ignorance required to say these things and be able to write a language.

There's something strange in this off-topic jewish bullshit, I'm wondering what has to do this with Kemp.

[Magister Eckhart]

Who cares, Ashkenazis are not even european genetically nor culturally.

Btw you are wrong that Ashkenazis are a minority, they represent 80% of Jews

I think after 2000 years of living in Europe, contributing to European culture, and interbreeding with Europeans, the Ashkenazis definitely fit into the definition of "European".

At any rate, I'd sooner welcome a diasporic Jew into my house than an Israeli; the Jewish community has by and far benefited the Occident, and even today they serve as good examples for us (I don't mean the "reformed" Jews, I mean real Jews.) Look, for example, at the Chief Rabbi of the Commonwealth, Lord Sachs. He is saying to Europeans what no European in the House of Lords would dare say, but Orthodox and Conservative Jews like Lord Sachs speak out about on a regular basis: selfishness and materialism causing low birthrates for native Europeans, the dangers of sodomitic fetishes and perversions to our social fabric, the necessity of maintaining religious and spiritual traditions, etc.

This is part of why all of this "White race" fantasy has no place in European preservation: our greatest allies are called enemies by Nordicists, while they readily hop into bed with the worst elements of our own society and cultivate our enemies within.

[Cato]

Native Americans are paragons of dignity and virtue compared to gypsies.

Not all of them are so dignified and virtuous, but point well taken. Even the scuzziest Native that I've seen looks worlds better than the gypsies I've seen in photos.

[Ibericus]

I think after 2000 years of living in Europe, contributing to European culture, and interbreeding with Europeans, the Ashkenazis definitely fit into the definition of "European".

This is part of why all of this "White race" fantasy has no place in European preservation: our greatest allies are called enemies by Nordicists, while they readily hop into bed with the worst elements of our own society and cultivate our enemies within.
Genetically they are half middle-eastern, and culturally they are not european. Sorry but I don't consdier them to be european fellows.

[TheSeeker]

Jealous of what,specifically? When somebody puts an Iberian sculpture as an example of "Gothic nordics in Spain" the least you can call him is cretin.Scientific work? :clap2:

Kemp is right and you lot are wrong, plain and simple.

From his blog: http://www.arthurkemp.com/?p=376

DNA Studies Confirm Accuracy of March of the Titans Thesis of Racial Mixing in Southern Europe

Over the years, I and my book, March of the Titans, have been the subject of an intense amount of vitriolic attacks from people objecting to my mention of racial mixing in Southern Europe as being the cause of the decline of the classical civilizations.

In addition, I have also been vilified for daring to mention the very obvious admixture of sub-Saharan genes in Iberia (particularly Portugal) which resulted from the slave trading era.

The very latest genetic studies have conclusively proven the accuracy of March of the Titans.

I take no delight in having it confirmed — I would much rather have it otherwise, but, be assured, that revenge upon these internet vermin who have nothing better to do than slander me on their silly little blogs is sweet.

Herewith follows a selection of the genetic reports which confirm that March of the Titans is 100 percent correct:

Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/abs/ejhg2008258a.html)
European Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 17, 848-852; published 21 January 2009 (Full PDF Copy (http://www.white-history.com/pdf-files/ejhg2008258a.pdf))

Abstract

To investigate the male genetic legacy of the Arab rule in southern Europe during medieval times, we focused on specific Northwest African haplogroups and identified evolutionary close STR-defined haplotypes in Iberia, Sicily and the Italian peninsula.

Our results point to a higher recent Northwest African contribution in Iberia and Sicily in agreement with historical data.

Southern Italian regions known to have experienced long-term Arab presence also show an enrichment of Northwest African types. The forensic and genomic implications of these findings are discussed.

Introduction

After the collapse of the Roman Empire in Europe, the Arab dominance across the Mediterranean was one of the most impressive historical events that occurred in this region.

Arabs appeared on the southern shores of the Mediterranean in the early seventh century and quickly conquered North Africa.

They spread their language and religion to the native Northwest (NW) African Berber populations, which represented the bulk of the Muslim army that later conquered southern Europe.

Referred to either as Moors (in Iberia) or Saracens (in South Italy and Sicily), their arrival in Europe dates to 711 AD, rapidly subduing most of Iberia and Sicily (831 AD).

Among European kingdoms their presence was seen as a constant danger, and only by the fifteenth century was the Iberian reconquest completed.

In the thirteenth century Frederick II destroyed Arab rule in Sicily and between 1221 and 1226 he moved all the Arabs of Sicily to the city of Lucera, north of Apulia.

Lucera was later destroyed by Charles II (1301) but an Arab community was recorded in Apulia in 1336.

Guerrilla warfare was still conducted by Arabs in Sicily even after Frederick II’s actions.

So far, Y chromosome studies attempting to estimate the medieval North African (MNA) contribution to southern Europe have focused almost exclusively on the North African haplogroup E3b1b1b-M81, and have only partially taken into consideration the evolutionary relationships among haplotypes.

To generate a more comprehensive view of the genetic legacy of the MNA dominance in Europe, we systematically screened for Y chromosome haplotypes within three NW African specific haplogroups, across multiple southern European populations, and performed additional genotyping to refine the available genetic data.

Our results confirm a general correlation between historical and genetic data: Iberia and Sicily are the regions with the highest MNA male legacy.

Results and discussion

To address the degree of historical NW African contribution, we used a combined SNP-STR approach.

The coalescent times for the three NW African specific haplogroups ranges between 5000 and 24 000 years, spanning a number of historical scenarios each potentially explaining their presence on the Northern Mediterranean shores.

It follows that estimating MNA genetic legacy on the basis of haplogroups’ occurrence only would be misleading.

To avoid this limitation, we have extended our analysis to include STR data whose high mutation rate allows one to focus on more recent events.

We screened more than 2300 South European samples (Figure 1; Table 1) to identify those haplotypes which are evolutionary close to NW African chromosomes.

http://www.arthurkemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/table-01.jpg

Total frequencies for these chromosomes range between 0 and 19% across southern Europe, the highest being in Cantabria and comprising a sample from the Pas Valley, previously shown to have an extremely high frequency of the North African haplogroup E1b1b1b.

Our estimates of NW African chromosome frequencies were highest in Iberia and Sicily, in accordance with the long-term Arab rule in these two areas.

The chromosome frequencies in the two samples were not significantly different from each other (Fisher’s exact test P=0.83) but were both significantly different from the peninsular Italy sample (P<0.01).

An inspection of Table 1 reveals a non-random distribution of MNA types in the Italian peninsula, with at least a twofold increase over the Italian average estimate in three geographically close samples across the southern Apennine mountains (East Campania, Northwest Apulia, Lucera).

When pooled together, these three Italian samples displayed a local frequency of 4.7%, significantly different from the North and the rest of South Italy (P<0.01), but not from Iberia and Sicily (P=0.12 and P=0.33, respectively).

Arab presence is historically recorded in these areas following Frederick II’s relocation of Sicilian Arabs.

In Iberia, a non-random distribution might also potentially be present, as suggested by our lower estimates in the northeast (Basque region and Catalans), but more samples across the peninsula will be required to properly address this issue.

Assuming that a large population in regions such as Iberia, Sicily and Italy was present in the past, the ratio between Y chromosomes with a MNA ancestry and other types will have stayed approximately constant across time.

Smaller areas, however, would have been influenced by drift, in the Pas Valley for example.

Consistent with historical data, no population in Central Europe or the Balkans shows the presence of recently introgressed NW African types besides a few chromosomes in Albania and Romania.

The increasing use of highly structured distributions of Y chromosome types to investigate the ethnic/geographic origin of unknown samples gives the identification of regions in Italy enriched with recently introgressed NW African types forensic relevance.

We found that more than 56% of the Italian individuals identified here as having a recent NW African do not have a match in a large Italian Y chromosome dataset comprising almost 1200 individuals.

Of these, 31% instead perfectly overlap with types from NW African populations, potentially providing misleading advice to investigators.

Such results are also of interest in the light of the expanding business of genealogical services offering Y chromosome analysis to identify an individual’s ethnic ancestry.

Our results clearly confirm that conclusions based on single chromosomes should be taken very cautiously.

What are the expected genomic consequences of this historically recent admixture event? Suppose that 40 generations ago there was a 5% male introgression of African DNA into the European gene pool, corresponding to a total contribution of 2.5% of genetic material.

Immediately after the admixture event, a fraction of chromosomes within Europe would have African ancestry.

Recombination since this event will have substantially reduced the size of the fragments of African ancestry within European haplotypes, and with these parameters we would today expect to see an approximately exponential distribution (measuring size using genetic distance) of fragment sizes, with a mean value of roughly 2.6 cM.

Assuming a genome-wide average recombination rate of 1.3 cM/Mb, 2.5% of a typical present day southern European genome would consist on average of 2 Mb regions of African DNA.

We therefore believe that signatures of this event would be correctly identified using modern dense genotype data.

By using northern Italian and Mozabite samples recently genotyped for a large SNP autosomal dataset as the best available proxy of Italian and northern African populations, we estimated that about 41.5% of more than 640 000 genotyped SNPs showed an absolute allele frequency difference of at least 10% between the two groups.

Such frequency differences (and sometimes even smaller) between cases and controls characterized the vast majority of the inferred disease-causing SNPs in a recent genome-wide investigation.

In general then, it is critical to take population structure into account so as to avoid false positives in case-control association studies.

Thus, an understanding of similar historical admixture events is likely to aid researchers conducting such studies.”

The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula (http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(08)00592-2)
The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 83, Issue 6, 725-736, 04 December 2008

“Abstract

Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape.

The Iberian Peninsula provides a suitable region for examination of the demographic impact of such recent events, because its complex recent history has involved the long-term residence of two very different populations with distinct geographical origins and their own particular cultural and religious characteristics-North African Muslims and Sephardic Jews.

To address this issue, we analyzed Y chromosome haplotypes, which provide the necessary phylogeographic resolution, in 1140 males from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands.

Admixture analysis based on binary and Y-STR haplotypes indicates a high mean proportion of ancestry from North African (10.6%) and Sephardic Jewish (19.8%) sources.

Despite alternative possible sources for lineages ascribed a Sephardic Jewish origin, these proportions attest to a high level of religious conversion (whether voluntary or enforced), driven by historical episodes of social and religious intolerance, that ultimately led to the integration of descendants.

In agreement with the historical record, analysis of haplotype sharing and diversity within specific haplogroups suggests that the Sephardic Jewish component is the more ancient.

The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement-more marked in some regions than in others-plus the effects of genetic drift.”

- – -

This genetic study generated quite a few media articles. Here are two:

DNA study shows 20 percent of Iberian population has Jewish ancestry (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world/europe/04iht-gene.4.18411385.html?_r=1)

By Nicholas Wade Published: Thursday, December 4, 2008

“Spain and Portugal have a history of fervent Catholicism, but almost a third of the population now turns out to have a non-Christian genetic heritage. About 20 percent of the current population of the Iberian Peninsula has Sephardic Jewish ancestry, and 11 percent bear Moorish DNA signatures, a team of geneticists reports.

The genetic signatures reflect the forced conversions to Christianity in the 14th and 15th centuries after Christian armies wrested Spain back from Muslim control.

The new finding bears on two very different views of Spanish history: One holds that Spanish civilization is Catholic and all other influences are foreign, the other that Spain has been enriched by drawing from all three of its historical cultures – Catholic, Jewish and Muslim.

The genetic study, based on an analysis of Y chromosomes, was conducted by a team of biologists led by Mark Jobling of the University of Leicester in England and Francesc Calafell of the Pompeu Fabra University in Barcelona.

The biologists developed a Y chromosome signature for Sephardic men by studying Sephardic Jewish communities in places where Jews migrated after being expelled from Spain in the years from 1492 to 1496.

They also characterized the Y chromosomes of the Arab and Berber army that invaded Spain in 711 A.D. from data on people now living in Morocco and Western Sahara.

After a period of forbearance under the Arab Umayyad dynasty, Spain entered a long period of religious intolerance, with its Muslim Berber dynasties forcing both Christians and Jews to convert to Islam, and the victorious Christians then expelling Jews and Muslims or forcing both to convert.

The genetic study, reported online Thursday in the American Journal of Human Genetics, indicates there was a high level of conversion among Jews.

Jonathan Ray, a professor of Jewish studies at Georgetown University, said that a high proportion of people with Sephardic ancestry was to be expected.

“Jews formed a very large part of the urban population up until the great conversions,” he said.

The genetic analysis is “very compelling,” said Jane Gerber, an expert on Sephardic history at the City University of New York, and weighs against scholars who have argued that there were very few Jewish conversions to Christianity.

Ray raised the question of what the DNA evidence might mean on a personal level. “If four generations on I have no knowledge of my genetic past,” Ray said, “how does that affect my understanding of my own religious association?”

The issue is one that has confronted Calafell, an author of the study. His own Y chromosome is probably of Sephardic ancestry – the test is not definitive for individuals – and his surname is from a town in Catalonia; Jews undergoing conversion often took surnames from place names.

Jews first settled in Spain during the early years of the Roman empire. Sephardic Jews bear that name because the Hebrew word for Spain is Sepharad.”

DNA Reveals Spain’s Hidden History (http://russiatoday.com/Art_and_Fun/2008-12-16/DNA_Reveals_Spain's_Hidden_History_.html)

Published 16 December, 2008, 11:15

“DNA tests have proved there were mass conversions of faith in Spain over six centuries ago, and that the country now has a prevalent Jewish and Muslim mix.

Spain’s turbulent past was made even more perplexing when scientists unveiled remarkable new evidence that suggests there was a mass conversion to Catholicism by Muslims and Jews in the 15th and 16th centuries.

During this time, Spain was under horrendous religious oppression. It is perhaps the country’s bleakest period. Historically, it has generally been agreed that some time after they conquered Spain, the Moors expelled all Muslims and Jews who refused to convert to the Catholic faith.

Although historians have often debated how many Jews converted and how many chose exile, the new evidence controversially challenges the belief that the Moors’ desire to convert Jews and the Muslims caused two separate migrations from Spain.

Jane S. Gerber, an expert in Sephardic history at the City University of New York, believes the study shows that the numbers of religious conversions to Catholicism were “grossly underestimated.”

The study, conducted by the American Journal of Human Genetics, gathered evidence through means of DNA testing and concluded that thousands of Spanish people, in particular Jews, converted to the Catholic faith in order to remain in the country.

Francesc Calafell of the Pompeu Fabra University and Mark Jobling of Leicester University led the genetic study, which was based on an analysis of Y-chromosomes of Sephardic Jews in areas where they migrated to after being expelled from Spain in 1492 - 1496 and the DNA of over 1000 Spanish and Portuguese men.

The geneticists then determined whether the participant’s Y chromosome came from a Jewish or Moorish predecessor or from another source.

Stunningly, evidence revealed that 20 per cent of the Iberian Peninsula’s population has Sephardic Jewish ancestry and that 11 per cent of the Spanish and Portuguese population has DNA matching Moorish descent.

Fransesc Calafell said he did not anticipate the findings. ”The Jewish link was particularly surprising, we had certainly not expected it,” he said.

The compelling evidence sheds new light on previous beliefs that few Jews converted to Christianity in Spain during this period.

The findings came as a surprise not only to historians and academics, but also to the men who participated in the DNA tests, many of who were completely oblivious of their ancestry.”

- O – O – O – O – O - O -

Portugal has the highest frequency of the female mediated mtDNA haplogroup L of Sub-Saharan origin in Europe. This is the result of the slave trade.

In 2003, a study by Brehm at al. which analysed 525 Portuguese individuals reported mtDNA L haplogroups at 11.8% in the south, 8.1% in the center, 3.3% in the north and also found a significant Sub-Saharan imprint in the Autonomous regions of Portugal, with L haplogroups constituting about 13% of the lineages in Madeira and 3.4 % in the Azores.

In a 2005 study by Pereira et al. that analysed 549 Portuguese individuals, sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 11.38% in the south, 5.02% in the center and 3.21% in the north.

African Female Heritage in Iberia: A Reassessment of mtDNA Lineage Distribution in Present Times (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16201138)
Human Biology, Volume 77, Number 2, April 2005

“The Iberian peninsula is a peripheral region of Europe in close proximity to Africa.

Its inhabitants have an overall mtDNA genetic landscape typical of European background, although with signs of some African influence, whose features we deemed to disclose by analyzing available mtDNA HVRI distributions and new data.

We analyzed 1,045 sequences.

The most relevant results are the following:

(1) North African sequences (haplogroup U6) present an overall frequency of 2.39%, and sub-Saharan sequences reach 3.83%, values that are, in both cases, much higher than those generally observed in Europe; and

(2) there is a substantial geographic heterogeneity in the distribution of these lineages (haplogroup L being the most frequent in the south, whereas haplogroup U6 is generally more common in the north).

The analysis of the observed diversity within each haplogroup strongly suggests that both were recently introduced (in historical times).

Although for haplogroup U6 the documented event that is demographically compatible is the Islamic period (beginning of the 8th century to the end of the 15th century), for haplogroup L the most probable origin is the modern slave trade (mid 15th century to the end of the 18th century).

However, the observed geographic structuring for one of the haplogroups does not fit the expected distribution provided by simplistic historical considerations.

In fact, although for haplogroup L the north-south increasing frequency is corroborated by historical data, the opposite trend, observed for haplogroup U6, is more difficult to reconcile with the magnitude and time span of the Islamic political and cultural influence, which lasted longer and was more intense in the south.

To clarify this conundrum, we need not only a substantial increase in the amount of mtDNA data (particularly for North Africa) but also new historical data and interpretations.”

HLA genes in Portugal inferred from sequence-based typing: in the crossroad between Europe and Africa (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mksg/tan/2005/00000066/00000001/art00005;jsessionid=10tqd5s8emop.victoria)
Tissue Antigens, Volume 66, Number 1, July 2005 , pp. 26-36(11)

“Abstract:

The human leukocyte antigen-A (HLA-A), -B and -DRB1 polymorphism was examined in the Portuguese population, discriminating between North, Centre and South inhabitants.

All data were obtained at high-resolution level, using sequence-based typing.

The most frequent allele at each locus was A* 020101 (26%), B* 440301 and B* 510101 (12% each) and DRB1* 070101 (15%).

The predominant three-locus haplotype was A*020101-B*440301-DRB1*070101 (3.1%), highly frequent in North Portugal (5.4%), lower in Centre (2%) and absent in the South.

The present study demonstrates that the Portuguese population has been genetically influenced by Europeans and North Africans, via several historic immigrations.

North Portugal seems to concentrate, probably due to the pressure of Arab expansion, an ancient genetic pool originated from several North Africans and Europeans, influences throughout millenniums.

South Portugal shows a North African genetic influence, probably of recent origin by means of Berbers accompanying Arab expansion.

We found that Centre Portugal is the distribution limit of some alleles and haplotypes that characterize the North or the South of the country.

Despite North, Centre and South Portugal not being significantly different in allele frequencies, this study shows that HLA allele and haplotype frequencies are not homogeneous in the country.

North and South Portugal show more similarity to North Africans in opposition to Centre which appears closer to Europeans.”

North African genes in Iberia studied by Y-chromosome DNA haplotype V (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3B-43W0TGF-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e9bae95a4ba8b8cf048d6994c8f9a4ab)
Human Immunology, Volume 62, Issue 9, September 2001, Pages 885-888

American Society for Histocompatibility and Immunogenetics. Published by Elsevier Science,Inc.

“Abstract

Haplotype V at the Y-chromosome specific DNA polymorphism (p49/TaqI) was reported in a study concerning 487 males originating from five different geographic locations in Iberia and North Africa.

The highest frequency of haplotype V (68.9%) was previously observed in Berbers from Morocco, and it was previously established that this haplotype is a characteristic Berberian haplotype in North Africa.

Percentages of haplotype V geographic distribution reveal a gradient of decreasing frequencies with latitude in Iberia: 40.8% in Andalusia, 36.2% in Portugal, 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in Basques; such a cline of decreasing haplotype V frequencies from the South to the North in Iberia clearly establishes a North African toward Iberian gene flow.”

North African genes in Iberia studied by Y-chromosome DNA haplotype 5 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200110/ai_n8955294/pg_2/)
Human Biology, Oct 2001 by Lucotte, Gerard, Gerard, Nathalie, Mercier, Geraldine

“In our own present data concerning southwest European frequencies, haplotype 15 frequencies are heterogeneous among the five populations studied.

The study of variations in the frequency of haplotype 5, the second most frequent (31.6%) haplotype is the main purpose of the present study.

The most elevated value obtained for haplotype 5 in our series was for Berbers (68.9%), and percentages of haplotype distributions show a gradient of decreasing frequency north from Morocco: 40.8% in Andalusia, 36.2% in Portugal, 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in the Basque region.

Haplotype 5 frequencies are heterogeneous among the five populations tested; there is a significant Haplotype 5, the “Berber haplotype” (Lucotte et al. 2000), therefore allows assessment of the patrilineal North African gene flow into Iberia.

For the corresponding matrilineal gene flow, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) analyses have already shown that the Iberian Peninsula is differentiated in terms of levels of genetic diversity and presence of unique lineage groups (forte-Real et al. 1996).

In this last study it might be considered that the North African Berber branch had some input into Iberia (quantified as approximately 10% in Spanish mtDNA lineages, 7% in Portuguese, and none in Basque).

Initial studies on genetic markers corresponding to nuclear gene frequencies in human populations in the Iberian Peninsula (Bertranpetit and CavalliSforza 1991; Calafell and Bertranpetit 1993) have shown that the first principal component (PC) of gene frequencies (the percentage of variation explained by this factor being 27.1%) is that between people originally of Basque and nonBasque descent.

The second PC (14.5% of variation explained, and 41.6% cumulated) points to the genetic divergence between Catalonia and the central and south central parts of Iberia. The third PC (12.3%, and 53.9% cumulated) concerns the Mediterranean as opposed to the Atlantic regions.

The fourth and fifth factors cover a reasonable portion of variance (9.6% and 9.0%, respectively), but they were more difficult to interpret.”

North African Berber and Arab Influences in the Western-Mediterranean Revealed by YChromosome DNA Haplotypes (http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/23496441/North-African-Berber-and-Arab-Influences-in-the-Western-Mediterranean-Revealed-by-YChromosome-DNA-Haplotypes)
Human Biology, June 2006

“Summary:

We have analyzed Y-chromosome diversity in the western Mediterranean area, examining p49a,f TaqI haplotype V and subhaplotypes Vb (Berber) and Va (Arab).

A total of 2,196 unrelated DNA samples, belonging to 22 populations from North Africa and the southern Mediterranean coast of occidental Europe, have been typed.

Subhaplotype Vb, predominant in a Berber population of Morocco (63.5%), was also found at high frequencies in southern Portugal (35.9%) and Andalusia (25.4%).

The Arab subhaplotype Va, predominant in Algeria (53.9%) and Tunisia (50.6%), was also found at a relatively high frequency in Sicily (23.1%) and Naples (16.4%); its highest frequency in Iberia was in northern Portugal (22.8%) and Andalusia (15.5%).

In Iberia there is a gradient of decreasing frequencies in latitude for both subhaplotypes Va and Vb, related to eight centuries of Muslim domination (8th to 15th centuries) in southern Iberia.

During the 7th century A.D., Muslim people coming from the Arabian peninsula and the Middle East invaded North Africa. The most important population movement relating both sides of the Mediterranean Sea was the conquest of the Iberian peninsula by North African populations (with recruited Berbers), soon after the first Muslim invasion.

More than eight centuries (8th to 15th centuries) of Muslim domination in the southem part of Iberia imparted an important cultural legacy (Conrad 1998) and probable gene exchanges between North African and Iberian populations.

Haplotype XV was also predominant in the first European study we published (Lucotte and Hazout 1996), with elevated frequencies in French Basques.

The geographic distribution of haplotype XV in Europe reveals a gradient of decreasing frequencies from this Basque focus toward eastern peripheral countries (Lucotte and Loirat 1999) but also toward southwestern countries.

According to the Y Chromosome Consortium (2002) nomenclature, haplotype XV corresponds to the M173 lineage (Dieterlen and Lucotte 2005). Haplotype V {A2,C0,D0,FI,ir) is the most frequent haplotype in North Africa (Lucotte et al. 2000), with a particularly high frequency (55%) in the populations with a relative predominance of Berber origin.

Our previous study on the subject examined the relative frequencies of haplotype V in four Iberian populations compared with a Berber population living In North Africa (Lucotte et al. 2001).

The highest frequency of baplotype V (68.9%) was observed in Berbers from Morocco, and the geographic distribution of haplotype V revealed a gradient of decreasing frequencies with latitude in Iberia (40.8% in Andalusia; 36.2% in Portugal; 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in the Basque Country) (Lucotte et al. 2001); such a dine of decreasing haplotype V frequencies from the south to the north in Iberia clearly established a gene flow from North Africa toward Iberia.”

Reduced genetic structure of the Iberian peninsula revealed by Y-chromosome analysis: implications for population demography (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/EJHG_2004_v12_p855.pdf)
European Journal of Human Genetics (2004) 12, 855-863.

“Europe has been influenced by both intra- and intercontinental migrations.

Since the Iberian peninsula was a refuge during the Last Glacial Maximum, demographic factors associated with contraction, isolation, subsequent expansion and gene flow episodes have contributed complexity to its population history.

In this work, we analysed 26 Y-chromosome biallelic markers in 568 chromosomes from 11 different Iberian population groups and compared them to published data on the Basques and Catalans to gain insight into the paternal gene pool of these populations and find out to what extent major demographic processes account for their genetic structure.

Our results reveal a reduced, although geographically correlated, Y-chromosomal interpopulation variance (1.2%), which points to a limited heterogeneity in the region.

Coincidentally, spatial analysis of genetic distances points to a focal distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroups in this area.

These results indicate that neither old or recent Levantine expansions nor North African contacts have influenced the current Iberian Y-chromosome diversity so that geographical patterns can be identified.

Outside a European context, some studies have investigated the degree of African gene flow in Iberian populations.

Although classical markers have failed to detect this influence, roughly 10% of Iberian mtDNA and Y-chromosome haplotypes have been found to be of African origin.

Moreover, unlike the rest of Europe, the presence of markers with probable North African origin, the mtDNA U613,30 and the Y-chromosome E3b,26 points to a specific Northwest African influence in Iberia.

Northwest African influences in the south of Iberia are reconciled with the slow reconquest of the Iberian peninsula from the North by the Christians, which lasted seven centuries and ended in Granada in 1492.

In fact, Bosch et al dated the specific Northwest African male influence to Iberia as E700 ybp, which they linked to the historical Islamic occupation.

Favouring this, Lucotte et al27 detected that the characteristic Berber Y-chromosome haplotype p49a,f htV showed a gradient of decreasing frequencies with latitude in Iberia.

As the Moslem influence in the Cantabrian fringe was barely appreciable, how can the Northwest African influence in northern parts of Iberia be explained?

Other studies with the Y-chromosome, and also with other genetic markers, have detected this Northwest African influence in northern Iberia.”

[Tomasz]

This is part of why all of this "White race" fantasy has no place in European preservation: our greatest allies are called enemies by Nordicists, while they readily hop into bed with the worst elements of our own society and cultivate our enemies within.

As Iberia wisely mentioned, Jews are neither culturally nor genetically European. In addition to that, they have been parasites upon European societies. They are supporting multi-culturalism in Europe. They are responsible for rise and spread of communism and many other ideas hostile to our race and culture. What more do you need to exclude them from "allies"?

[Don]

Kemp is right and you lot are wrong, plain and simple.
(Spaniards are african/gypsy/negros and jews.)

http://elblogdeaneymikel.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/aburrido6.jpg

I think you forgot to mention our amerindian blood as well... and to post a picture from us, you troll.

I do it for you:

http://tu.tv/imagenes/videos/c/u/cuando-vas-aburrido-en-la-autopista_imagenGrande.jpg
Me and my primo emigrating from our jungle/desert to civilization, you know, USA or Europe, just after my jewish mom gave me some bananas for the long trip to western world and my father blessed us in the name of alah, you know, as all we true spaniards do.

But what can I tell you that you already don't know about us?... you sage :).

[Alvarado]

Total frequencies for these chromosomes range between 0 and 19% across southern Europe, the highest being in Cantabria and comprising a sample from the Pas Valley, previously shown to have an extremely high frequency of the North African haplogroup E1b1b1b.


Then, the führer is a Somali/moor:

DNA research shows that the German Fuhrer Adolf Hitler was related to Somalis, Berbers and Jews. That is this week to read the magazine Knack. By the DNA of relatives of the Führer to analyze could be called "haplogroup" Hitler's determination. That price gives Hitler's ancestors came from and who he is related.
Quantcast

Remarkable that the haplogroup Hitler 'E1b1b "appears to belong, who have little common in Germany and Western Europe. Such "genetic fingerprint" is much more common in the south at 25 percent of Greeks and Sicilians, and as many as 50 to 80 percent of North Africans.

Haplogroup E1b1b comes frequently to the Berbers and also in Somalia. More striking still is the haplogroup of Hitler's second most common haplogroup in the Ashkenazi Jews is.


According to this, half of europe is also mixed:

http://thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b.png


Using kemp's parameters, germans must be an inferior race governed by Somalis/moors. Plain and simple.

[TheSeeker]

Using kemp's parameters, germans must be an inferior race governed by Somalis/moors. Plain and simple.

You will convince no-one of your arguments by throwing up a barrage of insults.

Why not try and refute the rock-solid genetic evidence Kemp has laid out.

That would be a lot more convicing to us observers, who see in your repeated ad hominen attacks no attempt whatsoever to disprove any of the genetic evidence.

[TheSeeker]

Then, the führer is a Somali/moor:

It is more than likely that there has been racial mixing in many parts of Europe.

That is not under dispute, and I seem to recall Kemp making that very point in March of the Titans.

The real point of this thread, is however, to see if there is proof for his allegations of widespread racial mixing -- more than anywhere else in Europe -- in Southern Europe, which is the basis of your objections.

If you could focus on that, instead of resorting to, frankly, childish insults, you would help to raise the level on this board.

[The Lawspeaker]

Trolls.. I hate trolls.

[Megrez]

According to some Nordicists, Hitler was indeed of an inferior racial stock.

[TheSeeker]

Me and my primo emigrating from our jungle/desert to civilization, you know, USA or Europe, just after my jewish mom gave me some bananas for the long trip to western world and my father blessed us in the name of alah, you know, as all we true spaniards do.
But what can I tell you that you already don't know about us?... you sage :).

Why don't you try and discuss the genetic evidence instead of being silly?

Or is it because you cannot?

[Alvarado]

It is more than likely that there has been racial mixing in many parts of Europe.

That is not under dispute, and I seem to recall Kemp making that very point in March of the Titans.

The real point of this thread, is however, to see if there is proof for his allegations of widespread racial mixing -- more than anywhere else in Europe -- in Southern Europe, which is the basis of your objections.

If you could focus on that, instead of resorting to, frankly, childish insults, you would help to raise the level on this board.


I'm not denying racial mixing in Europe, this is a good proof of that:

DNA research shows that the German Fuhrer Adolf Hitler was related to Somalis, Berbers and Jews. That is this week to read the magazine Knack. By the DNA of relatives of the Führer to analyze could be called "haplogroup" Hitler's determination. That price gives Hitler's ancestors came from and who he is related.
Quantcast

Remarkable that the haplogroup Hitler 'E1b1b "appears to belong, who have little common in Germany and Western Europe. Such "genetic fingerprint" is much more common in the south at 25 percent of Greeks and Sicilians, and as many as 50 to 80 percent of North Africans.

Haplogroup E1b1b comes frequently to the Berbers and also in Somalia. More striking still is the haplogroup of Hitler's second most common haplogroup in the Ashkenazi Jews is.

Perhaps you might want to reconsider your data about haplogroups now.

[Pallantides]

According to some Nordicists, Hitler was indeed of an inferior racial stock.

Brazilian Nordicists?

[Loki]

Why don't you try and discuss the genetic evidence instead of being silly?

Or is it because you cannot?

Hello TheSeeker,

Could you please post an introduction thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7) so that we may be sure you are a legitimate registration and not just someone who came on here to insult Spaniards. All debate and opinions are allowed, but we have in the past had members who registered here for the sole purpose of trolling Spaniards.

Many thanks

[Megrez]

Brazilian Nordicists?

Shetlandic and German Nordicists.

[Ibericus]

Herewith follows a selection of the genetic reports which confirm that March of the Titans is 100 percent correct:

Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/abs/ejhg2008258a.html)
European Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 17, 848-852; published 21 January 2009 (Full PDF Copy (http://www.white-history.com/pdf-files/ejhg2008258a.pdf))

Abstract

To investigate the male genetic legacy of the Arab rule in southern Europe during medieval times, we focused on specific Northwest African haplogroups and identified evolutionary close STR-defined haplotypes in Iberia, Sicily and the Italian peninsula.

Our results point to a higher recent Northwest African contribution in Iberia and Sicily in agreement with historical data.

Southern Italian regions known to have experienced long-term Arab presence also show an enrichment of Northwest African types. The forensic and genomic implications of these findings are discussed.

Introduction

After the collapse of the Roman Empire in Europe, the Arab dominance across the Mediterranean was one of the most impressive historical events that occurred in this region.

Arabs appeared on the southern shores of the Mediterranean in the early seventh century and quickly conquered North Africa.

They spread their language and religion to the native Northwest (NW) African Berber populations, which represented the bulk of the Muslim army that later conquered southern Europe.

Referred to either as Moors (in Iberia) or Saracens (in South Italy and Sicily), their arrival in Europe dates to 711 AD, rapidly subduing most of Iberia and Sicily (831 AD).

Among European kingdoms their presence was seen as a constant danger, and only by the fifteenth century was the Iberian reconquest completed.

In the thirteenth century Frederick II destroyed Arab rule in Sicily and between 1221 and 1226 he moved all the Arabs of Sicily to the city of Lucera, north of Apulia.

Lucera was later destroyed by Charles II (1301) but an Arab community was recorded in Apulia in 1336.

Guerrilla warfare was still conducted by Arabs in Sicily even after Frederick II’s actions.

So far, Y chromosome studies attempting to estimate the medieval North African (MNA) contribution to southern Europe have focused almost exclusively on the North African haplogroup E3b1b1b-M81, and have only partially taken into consideration the evolutionary relationships among haplotypes.

To generate a more comprehensive view of the genetic legacy of the MNA dominance in Europe, we systematically screened for Y chromosome haplotypes within three NW African specific haplogroups, across multiple southern European populations, and performed additional genotyping to refine the available genetic data.

Our results confirm a general correlation between historical and genetic data: Iberia and Sicily are the regions with the highest MNA male legacy.

Results and discussion

To address the degree of historical NW African contribution, we used a combined SNP-STR approach.

The coalescent times for the three NW African specific haplogroups ranges between 5000 and 24 000 years, spanning a number of historical scenarios each potentially explaining their presence on the Northern Mediterranean shores.

It follows that estimating MNA genetic legacy on the basis of haplogroups’ occurrence only would be misleading.

To avoid this limitation, we have extended our analysis to include STR data whose high mutation rate allows one to focus on more recent events.

We screened more than 2300 South European samples (Figure 1; Table 1) to identify those haplotypes which are evolutionary close to NW African chromosomes.

http://www.arthurkemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/table-01.jpg

Total frequencies for these chromosomes range between 0 and 19% across southern Europe, the highest being in Cantabria and comprising a sample from the Pas Valley, previously shown to have an extremely high frequency of the North African haplogroup E1b1b1b.

Our estimates of NW African chromosome frequencies were highest in Iberia and Sicily, in accordance with the long-term Arab rule in these two areas.

The chromosome frequencies in the two samples were not significantly different from each other (Fisher’s exact test P=0.83) but were both significantly different from the peninsular Italy sample (P<0.01).

An inspection of Table 1 reveals a non-random distribution of MNA types in the Italian peninsula, with at least a twofold increase over the Italian average estimate in three geographically close samples across the southern Apennine mountains (East Campania, Northwest Apulia, Lucera).

When pooled together, these three Italian samples displayed a local frequency of 4.7%, significantly different from the North and the rest of South Italy (P<0.01), but not from Iberia and Sicily (P=0.12 and P=0.33, respectively).

Arab presence is historically recorded in these areas following Frederick II’s relocation of Sicilian Arabs.

In Iberia, a non-random distribution might also potentially be present, as suggested by our lower estimates in the northeast (Basque region and Catalans), but more samples across the peninsula will be required to properly address this issue.

Assuming that a large population in regions such as Iberia, Sicily and Italy was present in the past, the ratio between Y chromosomes with a MNA ancestry and other types will have stayed approximately constant across time.

Smaller areas, however, would have been influenced by drift, in the Pas Valley for example.

Consistent with historical data, no population in Central Europe or the Balkans shows the presence of recently introgressed NW African types besides a few chromosomes in Albania and Romania.

The increasing use of highly structured distributions of Y chromosome types to investigate the ethnic/geographic origin of unknown samples gives the identification of regions in Italy enriched with recently introgressed NW African types forensic relevance.

We found that more than 56% of the Italian individuals identified here as having a recent NW African do not have a match in a large Italian Y chromosome dataset comprising almost 1200 individuals.

Of these, 31% instead perfectly overlap with types from NW African populations, potentially providing misleading advice to investigators.

Such results are also of interest in the light of the expanding business of genealogical services offering Y chromosome analysis to identify an individual’s ethnic ancestry.

Our results clearly confirm that conclusions based on single chromosomes should be taken very cautiously.
Basic genetics : Y-DNA has nothing to with admixture. The y-dna haplogroups are only one line of all ancestry therefore not useful to determine admixture. Instead, autosomal DNA is used for admixture, which in fact in that very same study of yours, but of course it was not interesting for you :

"In fact, a European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at 2.5/3.4%. [10] [11] "

Dupanloup, I. (2004). "Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans



What are the expected genomic consequences of this historically recent admixture event? Suppose that 40 generations ago there was a 5% male introgression of African DNA into the European gene pool, corresponding to a total contribution of 2.5% of genetic material.

Immediately after the admixture event, a fraction of chromosomes within Europe would have African ancestry.

Recombination since this event will have substantially reduced the size of the fragments of African ancestry within European haplotypes, and with these parameters we would today expect to see an approximately exponential distribution (measuring size using genetic distance) of fragment sizes, with a mean value of roughly 2.6 cM.

Assuming a genome-wide average recombination rate of 1.3 cM/Mb, 2.5% of a typical present day southern European genome would consist on average of 2 Mb regions of African DNA.

We therefore believe that signatures of this event would be correctly identified using modern dense genotype data.

By using northern Italian and Mozabite samples recently genotyped for a large SNP autosomal dataset as the best available proxy of Italian and northern African populations, we estimated that about 41.5% of more than 640 000 genotyped SNPs showed an absolute allele frequency difference of at least 10% between the two groups.

Such frequency differences (and sometimes even smaller) between cases and controls characterized the vast majority of the inferred disease-causing SNPs in a recent genome-wide investigation.

In general then, it is critical to take population structure into account so as to avoid false positives in case-control association studies.

Thus, an understanding of similar historical admixture events is likely to aid researchers conducting such studies.”

The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula (http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(08)00592-2)
The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 83, Issue 6, 725-736, 04 December 2008

“Abstract

Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape.

The Iberian Peninsula provides a suitable region for examination of the demographic impact of such recent events, because its complex recent history has involved the long-term residence of two very different populations with distinct geographical origins and their own particular cultural and religious characteristics-North African Muslims and Sephardic Jews.

To address this issue, we analyzed Y chromosome haplotypes, which provide the necessary phylogeographic resolution, in 1140 males from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands.

Admixture analysis based on binary and Y-STR haplotypes indicates a high mean proportion of ancestry from North African (10.6%) and Sephardic Jewish (19.8%) sources.

Despite alternative possible sources for lineages ascribed a Sephardic Jewish origin, these proportions attest to a high level of religious conversion (whether voluntary or enforced), driven by historical episodes of social and religious intolerance, that ultimately led to the integration of descendants.

In agreement with the historical record, analysis of haplotype sharing and diversity within specific haplogroups suggests that the Sephardic Jewish component is the more ancient.

The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement-more marked in some regions than in others-plus the effects of genetic drift.”

- – -
Nice. But 1) it's based solely on haplogroups not autosomal and 2) The author themselves admitted that the Sephardic Jewish was an error and that it meant simply Near-Eastern, but it has nothing to with admixture sinces it is based on haplogroups. Therefore, a country like Austria or Switzerland would show the same near-eastern amount since they have the same amount of haplogroups J. If based solely on haplogroups, like the study does :

"" The Sephardic result is contradicted[35][45][48][49][50] or not replicated in the body of genetic studies done in Iberia and has been subsequently questioned by the authors[46][46][51][52] "

"The Sephardic result is in contradiction [44][45][46][47][48] or not replicated in all the body of genetic studies done in Iberia and conflicts with mainstream historiography (denies Neolithic, Roman, Greek, Phoenician, Germanic, Alani, Slavic, Arab and other contributions to modern Iberians) and has been questioned by the authors themselves [49][50][51][52] and by Stephen Oppenheimer who estimates that much earlier migrations, 5000 to 10,000 years ago from the Eastern Mediterranean might also have accounted for the Sephardic estimates: "They are really assuming that they are looking at his migration of Jewish immigrants, but the same lineages could have been introduced in the Neolithic". "

Haplogroup J distribution :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


This genetic study generated quite a few media articles. Here are two:

DNA study shows 20 percent of Iberian population has Jewish ancestry (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world/europe/04iht-gene.4.18411385.html?_r=1)

By Nicholas Wade Published: Thursday, December 4, 2008

“Spain and Portugal have a history of fervent Catholicism, but almost a third of the population now turns out to have a non-Christian genetic heritage. About 20 percent of the current population of the Iberian Peninsula has Sephardic Jewish ancestry, and 11 percent bear Moorish DNA signatures, a team of geneticists reports.

The genetic signatures reflect the forced conversions to Christianity in the 14th and 15th centuries after Christian armies wrested Spain back from Muslim control.

The new finding bears on two very different views of Spanish history: One holds that Spanish civilization is Catholic and all other influences are foreign, the other that Spain has been enriched by drawing from all three of its historical cultures – Catholic, Jewish and Muslim.

The genetic study, based on an analysis of Y chromosomes, was conducted by a team of biologists led by Mark Jobling of the University of Leicester in England and Francesc Calafell of the Pompeu Fabra University in Barcelona.

The biologists developed a Y chromosome signature for Sephardic men by studying Sephardic Jewish communities in places where Jews migrated after being expelled from Spain in the years from 1492 to 1496.

They also characterized the Y chromosomes of the Arab and Berber army that invaded Spain in 711 A.D. from data on people now living in Morocco and Western Sahara.

After a period of forbearance under the Arab Umayyad dynasty, Spain entered a long period of religious intolerance, with its Muslim Berber dynasties forcing both Christians and Jews to convert to Islam, and the victorious Christians then expelling Jews and Muslims or forcing both to convert.

The genetic study, reported online Thursday in the American Journal of Human Genetics, indicates there was a high level of conversion among Jews.

Jonathan Ray, a professor of Jewish studies at Georgetown University, said that a high proportion of people with Sephardic ancestry was to be expected.

“Jews formed a very large part of the urban population up until the great conversions,” he said.

The genetic analysis is “very compelling,” said Jane Gerber, an expert on Sephardic history at the City University of New York, and weighs against scholars who have argued that there were very few Jewish conversions to Christianity.

Ray raised the question of what the DNA evidence might mean on a personal level. “If four generations on I have no knowledge of my genetic past,” Ray said, “how does that affect my understanding of my own religious association?”

The issue is one that has confronted Calafell, an author of the study. His own Y chromosome is probably of Sephardic ancestry – the test is not definitive for individuals – and his surname is from a town in Catalonia; Jews undergoing conversion often took surnames from place names.

Jews first settled in Spain during the early years of the Roman empire. Sephardic Jews bear that name because the Hebrew word for Spain is Sepharad.”

DNA Reveals Spain’s Hidden History (http://russiatoday.com/Art_and_Fun/2008-12-16/DNA_Reveals_Spain's_Hidden_History_.html)

Published 16 December, 2008, 11:15

“DNA tests have proved there were mass conversions of faith in Spain over six centuries ago, and that the country now has a prevalent Jewish and Muslim mix.

Spain’s turbulent past was made even more perplexing when scientists unveiled remarkable new evidence that suggests there was a mass conversion to Catholicism by Muslims and Jews in the 15th and 16th centuries.

During this time, Spain was under horrendous religious oppression. It is perhaps the country’s bleakest period. Historically, it has generally been agreed that some time after they conquered Spain, the Moors expelled all Muslims and Jews who refused to convert to the Catholic faith.

Although historians have often debated how many Jews converted and how many chose exile, the new evidence controversially challenges the belief that the Moors’ desire to convert Jews and the Muslims caused two separate migrations from Spain.

Jane S. Gerber, an expert in Sephardic history at the City University of New York, believes the study shows that the numbers of religious conversions to Catholicism were “grossly underestimated.”

The study, conducted by the American Journal of Human Genetics, gathered evidence through means of DNA testing and concluded that thousands of Spanish people, in particular Jews, converted to the Catholic faith in order to remain in the country.

Francesc Calafell of the Pompeu Fabra University and Mark Jobling of Leicester University led the genetic study, which was based on an analysis of Y-chromosomes of Sephardic Jews in areas where they migrated to after being expelled from Spain in 1492 - 1496 and the DNA of over 1000 Spanish and Portuguese men.

The geneticists then determined whether the participant’s Y chromosome came from a Jewish or Moorish predecessor or from another source.

Stunningly, evidence revealed that 20 per cent of the Iberian Peninsula’s population has Sephardic Jewish ancestry and that 11 per cent of the Spanish and Portuguese population has DNA matching Moorish descent.

Fransesc Calafell said he did not anticipate the findings. ”The Jewish link was particularly surprising, we had certainly not expected it,” he said.

The compelling evidence sheds new light on previous beliefs that few Jews converted to Christianity in Spain during this period.

The findings came as a surprise not only to historians and academics, but also to the men who participated in the DNA tests, many of who were completely oblivious of their ancestry.”

- O – O – O – O – O - O -

Actually Jews in Iberia were less than 2% of the population.1) it's based solely on haplogroups not autosomal and 2) The author themselves admitted that the Sephardic Jewish was an error and that it meant simply Near-Eastern, but it has nothing to with admixture sinces it is based on haplogroups. Therefore, a country like Austria or Switzerland would show the same near-eastern amount since they have the same amount of haplogroups J. If based solely on haplogroups, like the study does:

"" The Sephardic result is contradicted[35][45][48][49][50] or not replicated in the body of genetic studies done in Iberia and has been subsequently questioned by the authors[46][46][51][52] "

"The Sephardic result is in contradiction [44][45][46][47][48] or not replicated in all the body of genetic studies done in Iberia and conflicts with mainstream historiography (denies Neolithic, Roman, Greek, Phoenician, Germanic, Alani, Slavic, Arab and other contributions to modern Iberians) and has been questioned by the authors themselves [49][50][51][52] and by Stephen Oppenheimer who estimates that much earlier migrations, 5000 to 10,000 years ago from the Eastern Mediterranean might also have accounted for the Sephardic estimates: "They are really assuming that they are looking at his migration of Jewish immigrants, but the same lineages could have been introduced in the Neolithic". "

By using the same methodology of considering haplogroups J or E equivalent of admixture, then a country like Austria which has about 10 % of haplogroup J (more than Spain) would came up with more near-eastern, I repeat, by using the same methodology.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


Portugal has the highest frequency of the female mediated mtDNA haplogroup L of Sub-Saharan origin in Europe. This is the result of the slave trade.

In 2003, a study by Brehm at al. which analysed 525 Portuguese individuals reported mtDNA L haplogroups at 11.8% in the south, 8.1% in the center, 3.3% in the north and also found a significant Sub-Saharan imprint in the Autonomous regions of Portugal, with L haplogroups constituting about 13% of the lineages in Madeira and 3.4 % in the Azores.

In a 2005 study by Pereira et al. that analysed 549 Portuguese individuals, sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 11.38% in the south, 5.02% in the center and 3.21% in the north.
They didn't test indigenous Portuguese, but mulatto portugese. Second : mtDNA has nothing to do with admixture. The mtDNA is transmitted from mother to children, therefore it's only one line of ancestry. Only autosomal is used to determine admixture.


African Female Heritage in Iberia: A Reassessment of mtDNA Lineage Distribution in Present Times (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16201138)
Human Biology, Volume 77, Number 2, April 2005

“The Iberian peninsula is a peripheral region of Europe in close proximity to Africa.

Its inhabitants have an overall mtDNA genetic landscape typical of European background, although with signs of some African influence, whose features we deemed to disclose by analyzing available mtDNA HVRI distributions and new data.

We analyzed 1,045 sequences.

The most relevant results are the following:

(1) North African sequences (haplogroup U6) present an overall frequency of 2.39%, and sub-Saharan sequences reach 3.83%, values that are, in both cases, much higher than those generally observed in Europe; and

nice. But the mtDNA U6 has also been found in Brittany at 4.5 % :

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n4/fig_tab/5201145t2.html#figure-title
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n4/full/5201145a.html#tbl2
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n4/pdf/5201145a.pdf


(2) there is a substantial geographic heterogeneity in the distribution of these lineages (haplogroup L being the most frequent in the south, whereas haplogroup U6 is generally more common in the north).

The analysis of the observed diversity within each haplogroup strongly suggests that both were recently introduced (in historical times).

Although for haplogroup U6 the documented event that is demographically compatible is the Islamic period (beginning of the 8th century to the end of the 15th century), for haplogroup L the most probable origin is the modern slave trade (mid 15th century to the end of the 18th century).

However, the observed geographic structuring for one of the haplogroups does not fit the expected distribution provided by simplistic historical considerations.

In fact, although for haplogroup L the north-south increasing frequency is corroborated by historical data, the opposite trend, observed for haplogroup U6, is more difficult to reconcile with the magnitude and time span of the Islamic political and cultural influence, which lasted longer and was more intense in the south.

To clarify this conundrum, we need not only a substantial increase in the amount of mtDNA data (particularly for North Africa) but also new historical data and interpretations.”

But the mtDNA U6 has also been found in Brittany at 4.5 % :

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n4/fig_tab/5201145t2.html#figure-title
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n4/full/5201145a.html#tbl2
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n4/pdf/5201145a.pdf

In a recent study, no mtDNA L was found in a sample of 686 spaniards

http://biotech-events.ifrance.com/CONFERENCES2006/037%20LOPEZ_PEREZ.pdf

Also :

Two studies by Rosenberg et al. 2002 and Wilson et al. 2001 failed to detect any sub-Saharan admixture in Scots (from Orkney), Russians, Basques, Frenchmen or Italians (from Lombardy, Tuscany and Sardinia), while 1% was observed in Norwegians. More recently, Bauchet et al. 2007 tested several European groups for black admixture, and while cluster membership coefficients are not provided, the chart of Bayesian cluster results shows admixture levels to be equally low in Greeks, Spaniards (from Valencia), Basques, Frenchmen, Southern Italians, East English, West Irish, Poles, Germans (from Hanover) and Finns.

A similar study by Auton et al. 2009, which also contains an admixture analysis chart but no cluster membership coefficients, shows little to no sub-Saharan African influence in a wide array of European samples, i.e. Albanians, Austrians, Belgians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Croatians, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Finns, Frenchmen, Germans, Greeks, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Kosovars, Latvians, Macedonians, Netherlanders, Norwegians, Poles, Portuguese, Romanians, Russians, Scots, Serbians, Slovakians, Slovenians, Spaniards, Swedes, Swiss (German, French and Italian), Ukrainians, United Kingdom and Yugoslavians.

In another recent study [3] on Norwegians, an L2 Sub-Saharan African sequence was found in the sample of 74 Norwegians (1.4% Sub-Saharan admixture). (Giuseppe Passarino et al.,)

González-Pérez et al. (2010) have analyzed populations from the northern and southern shores of the Mediterranean, with Central Europeans and West Africans as external references. They estimate Sub-Saharan African admixture using two methods that yield vastly disparate results. In the Discussion section, they admit that the inflated "Alu/STR estimate might be artefactual" and favor the estimate based on the Alu loci set alone because it's consistent with previous mtDNA, Y-chromosome and 500,000-SNP structure data.

According to the more accurate latter method, Sub-Saharan African admixture is ~13% in North Africa and "imperceptible" (~0.01%) in Southern Europe:

Needless to say, their suspicious claims contradict STRUCTURE studies, which do not find any peculiarly higher admixture levels, sub-Saharan or otherwise, in Southern Europeans than among Northern Europeans. In fact, some of these studies have found LOWER admixture levels in some Southern Europeans, including Spaniards:

http://i34.tinypic.com/ekm6h1.png


In the Behar et al. study :

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/Zyklop/46730767.jpg


By using autosomal (not haplogroups) :

"In this study we have sampled over 800 unrelated individuals from the population of Spain, and have genotyped them with a genome-wide coverage. We have carried out linkage disequilibrium, haplotype, population structure and copy-number variation (CNV) analyses, and
have compared these estimates of the Spanish population with existing data from similar efforts.
Conclusions: In general, the Spanish population is similar to the Western and Northern Europeans, but has a more diverse haplotypic structure. Moreover, the Spanish population is also largely homogeneous within itself.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2164-11-326.pdf



Cluster of Spaniards in genetic plots based on autosomal :

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9707/eurozoom.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TBDgV2r3hxI/AAAAAAAACck/sYi1shNB8bc/s1600/westeurasianpca.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_x6Y4ZgFsZdY/S_07tdszhII/AAAAAAAAATQ/8zH-_Sy5kb0/s1600/PCgraphEuro.png

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4026/southwesteurope12.png

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/8502/eurogeneralpcamap3.png



If we speak now about the pure Northern EUropeans (according to Kemp) :

Blue = Asian see Russia :

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TKHjmECMWFI/AAAAAAAACng/VMSRlKY2zhM/s1600/han_mandinka_europeans_proportions.jpeg

Blue = Asian see Finland :

http://i34.tinypic.com/ekm6h1.png

[Pallantides]

Shetlander:
http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/ripley183.jpghttp://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/ripley184.jpg

[Aviane]

A Nice plot of a photo shot Pallantides.

[Vasconcelos]

Hello TheSeeker,

Could you please post an introduction thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7) so that we may be sure you are a legitimate registration and not just someone who came on here to insult Spaniards. All debate and opinions are allowed, but we have in the past had members who registered here for the sole purpose of trolling Spaniards.

Many thanks

I think you're askiing for too much, lad. The only posts he wrote were on this topic and on this very same subject. I'd dare say he's someone from this very forum who is using a secondary account to troll iberians, an IP check could verify it, perhaps, eventho everyone knows who could it be.

[San Galgano]

Libre is back with another troll account.
Did anyone ever seen him speaking in serb, croat, macedonian or whatever part of the Balkans and east Europe he pretended to be a part of?

[TheSeeker]

I'm not denying racial mixing in Europe, this is a good proof of that:
Perhaps you might want to reconsider your data about haplogroups now.

Alright, I see you need some basic lessons in genetics.

Firstly, understand this clearly: There have been no DNA tests conducted on Hitler, or any of his remains.

The claim that Hitler had the E1b1b Y-Chromosome haplogroup is based purely on a sample which was claimed to have been taken from an unidentified cousin in the Waldviertel region in Austria (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1305414/Hitler-descended-Jews-Africans-DNA-tests-reveal.html).

As anyone with even a basic knowledge of genetics knows – and this apparently excludes you – Y-Chromosomes are passed down from father to father.

In other words, this unidentified “cousin” could easily have got this E1b1b Y-Chromosome from another male lineage in his family.

There is therefore, no, repeat, no, evidence that Hitler had this haplogroup.

It is just media hysteria, onto which you have latched because you do not like the DNA evidence which Kemp has produced to prove that there has been racial mixing in Southern Europe.

In actual fact (just to show readers how amateurish you are) the DNA reports which show the extent of racial mixing in Iberia, for example, refer to the E1b1b1b haplogroup, and not even the E1b1b group to which you hysterically refer.

Now, because you obviously do not understand anything about DNA, I will explain to you the difference between E1b1b and E1b1b1b.

E1b1b (M35), which you and your media sources claim is evidence of Hitler’s North African and Jewish origins, is actually separate from the E1b1b1b (M81) haplogroup found in Iberia (and elsewhere in Southern Europe (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/abs/ejhg2008258a.html)).

The E1b1b1b (M81) is of much more recent origin, (http://thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b1b_Y-DNA.htm) and is a marker of recent Arab and African populations, and their movements into southern Europe.

E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago.

E1b1b (M35), is much older, and was probably one of the original haplogroups which originally populated Europe, along with the other haplogroups which are found there today.

The European variant of E1b1b (M35) has been shown to be a late-Pleistocene migration from North Africa to Europe, literally tens of thousands of years old. (Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations (http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.genet.41.110306.130407), Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564, December 2007, Peter A. Underhill and Toomas Kivisild).

In other words, the E1b1b (M35) which was claimed to have been found in a cousin of Hitler, was part of the original migration into Europe.

This contrasts markedly with the E1b1b1b (M81) strain, which only entered Europe less than a few hundred years ago, and which 100% backs up March of the Titans’s historical account.

So please do some reading up before you come onto public forums and humiliate yourself by displaying your crass ignorance for all to see.

Now, back to the topic at hand: can you refute all that DNA evidence which clearly shows that March of the Titans is correct?

[Don]

I think you're askiing for too much, lad. The only posts he wrote were on this topic and on this very same subject. I'd dare say he's someone from this very forum who is using a secondary account to troll iberians, an IP check could verify it, perhaps, eventho everyone knows who could it be.

The curious thing of this is that their senseless troll's poos always get a member's support, in this case the French, Cleemont. :thumbs up

[Loki]

Alright, I see you need some basic lessons in genetics.

....

I kindly ask you to respond to this post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=297905&postcount=158) before posting further. I'm not going to ask again.

[Eldritch]

Alright, I see you need some basic lessons in genetics.

Firstly, understand this clearly: There have been no DNA tests conducted on Hitler, or any of his remains.

The claim that Hitler had the E1b1b Y-Chromosome haplogroup is based purely on a sample which was claimed to have been taken from an unidentified cousin in the Waldviertel region in Austria (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1305414/Hitler-descended-Jews-Africans-DNA-tests-reveal.html).

As anyone with even a basic knowledge of genetics knows – and this apparently excludes you – Y-Chromosomes are passed down from father to father.

In other words, this unidentified “cousin” could easily have got this E1b1b Y-Chromosome from another male lineage in his family.

There is therefore, no, repeat, no, evidence that Hitler had this haplogroup.

It is just media hysteria, onto which you have latched because you do not like the DNA evidence which Kemp has produced to prove that there has been racial mixing in Southern Europe.

In actual fact (just to show readers how amateurish you are) the DNA reports which show the extent of racial mixing in Iberia, for example, refer to the E1b1b1b haplogroup, and not even the E1b1b group to which you hysterically refer.

Now, because you obviously do not understand anything about DNA, I will explain to you the difference between E1b1b and E1b1b1b.

E1b1b (M35), which you and your media sources claim is evidence of Hitler’s North African and Jewish origins, is actually separate from the E1b1b1b (M81) haplogroup found in Iberia (and elsewhere in Southern Europe (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/abs/ejhg2008258a.html)).

The E1b1b1b (M81) is of much more recent origin, (http://thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b1b_Y-DNA.htm) and is a marker of recent Arab and African populations, and their movements into southern Europe.

E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago.

E1b1b (M35), is much older, and was probably one of the original haplogroups which originally populated Europe, along with the other haplogroups which are found there today.

The European variant of E1b1b (M35) has been shown to be a late-Pleistocene migration from North Africa to Europe, literally tens of thousands of years old. (Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations (http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.genet.41.110306.130407), Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564, December 2007, Peter A. Underhill and Toomas Kivisild).

In other words, the E1b1b (M35) which was claimed to have been found in a cousin of Hitler, was part of the original migration into Europe.

This contrasts markedly with the E1b1b1b (M81) strain, which only entered Europe less than a few hundred years ago, and which 100% backs up March of the Titans’s historical account.

So please do some reading up before you come onto public forums and humiliate yourself by displaying your crass ignorance for all to see.

Now, back to the topic at hand: can you refute all that DNA evidence which clearly shows that March of the Titans is correct?


Hello TheSeeker,

Could you please post an introduction thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7) so that we may be sure you are a legitimate registration and not just someone who came on here to insult Spaniards. All debate and opinions are allowed, but we have in the past had members who registered here for the sole purpose of trolling Spaniards.

Many thanks

[Ibericus]

Alright, I see you need some basic lessons in genetics.

Firstly, understand this clearly: There have been no DNA tests conducted on Hitler, or any of his remains.

The claim that Hitler had the E1b1b Y-Chromosome haplogroup is based purely on a sample which was claimed to have been taken from an unidentified cousin in the Waldviertel region in Austria (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1305414/Hitler-descended-Jews-Africans-DNA-tests-reveal.html).
It would be not strange if Hitler was E1b1b since it is found in 9% of Austrians :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml



In actual fact (just to show readers how amateurish you are) the DNA reports which show the extent of racial mixing in Iberia, for example, refer to the E1b1b1b haplogroup, and not even the E1b1b group to which you hysterically refer.

You are here showing your ignorance, since haplogroups have nothing to do with admixture. An african-american can show up a european haplogroup if he has a european male direct ancestor, but his autosomal would show that he is mostly of African admixture. Therefore haplogroups are useless for admixture, since it is only one line of the ancestry.


E1b1b (M35), which you and your media sources claim is evidence of Hitler’s North African and Jewish origins, is actually separate from the E1b1b1b (M81) haplogroup found in Iberia (and elsewhere in Southern Europe (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/abs/ejhg2008258a.html)).

The E1b1b1b (M81) is of much more recent origin, (http://thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b1b_Y-DNA.htm) and is a marker of recent Arab and African populations, and their movements into southern Europe.

E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago.

E1b1b (M35), is much older, and was probably one of the original haplogroups which originally populated Europe, along with the other haplogroups which are found there today.

The European variant of E1b1b (M35) has been shown to be a late-Pleistocene migration from North Africa to Europe, literally tens of thousands of years old. (Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations (http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.genet.41.110306.130407), Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564, December 2007, Peter A. Underhill and Toomas Kivisild).

In other words, the E1b1b (M35) which was claimed to have been found in a cousin of Hitler, was part of the original migration into Europe.

This contrasts markedly with the E1b1b1b (M81) strain, which only entered Europe less than a few hundred years ago, and which 100% backs up March of the Titans’s historical account.
Actually the haplogroup E-M81 is found in Iberia at 4% but, a person with minimal knowledge on genetics knows that haplogroups is a completely different concept than admixture : Only Autosomal DNA can determine ancestry, and with autosomal the north-african admixtures detected in Spaniards is only 2-3 % (0% in the north).
By the way, E-M81 has been found in all Europe : France, Belgium even Finland.


So please do some reading up before you come onto public forums and humiliate yourself by displaying your crass ignorance for all to see.
Yeah, YOU should do the reasearch because you have no fuckin idea about genetics. Haplogroups have nothing to do with admixture. Do your homework.

[TheSeeker]

Yeah, YOU should do the reasearch because you have no fuckin idea about genetics. Haplogroups have nothing to do with admixture. Do your homework.

Ah well, how can anyone argue with such high-powered intellectual discourse.

[Osweo]

Who gives a shit about Hitler, these E, J and U lineages are all over Europe (and MAY have been much more common in ancient times). THe 'experts' can't seem to make their mind up on the age of the divisions, and new research forever brings up wider distributions.

North Africa is also full of European descendants. I've been reading Giles Milton's White Gold, and at any one time between 1500 and 1800 there were about 20,000 Europeans in slavery in the Maghreb. They were even captured from Iceland. I don't see how modern clumsy genetics tests can take this into account or state anything with absolute certainty. In fact, claims of certainty are a good sign of rubbish 'tests'.

We knew long before genetics, by good old fashioned history and culture, that there has been long continuity in the anciently more civilised south of Iberia. Traits you might think simplistically as Moorish have been there far longer, since Tartessos and earlier.

Speaking of ancient links with the ancestors of the Berbers isn't 'race mixing' anyway, that's an absurdly childish description of it. Before the Phoenicians and Arabs came, and before the trans-Saharan slave trade (Sultans like Moulay Ismail in the early 1700s took great delight in breeding mulattos for various purposes, indeed :ohwell:), the NW Africans were just a weird looking sort of almost-European. No more 'disastrous' to breed with them than most other Europeans. Read Herodotus, and you'll see that the 'Libyans' weren't always of a too foreign culture, either.

[TheSeeker]

Read Herodotus, and you'll see that the 'Libyans' weren't always of a too foreign culture, either.

Herodutos, of course, live in the 5th Century BC (circa 484 BC - 425 BC) and merely collected snippets he heard during his lifetime. In his Histories, he was at pains to point out that he was merely recounting what was told to him, and did not claim it as fact.

When you read some of the more bizarre sections of the Historiies, which include tales of witchcraft and monsters, you can see what he meant.

He is more famous for being the first to try and organise a historical account, rather than for the accuracy of his stories.

[Magister Eckhart]

As Iberia wisely mentioned, Jews are neither culturally nor genetically European. In addition to that, they have been parasites upon European societies. They are supporting multi-culturalism in Europe. They are responsible for rise and spread of communism and many other ideas hostile to our race and culture. What more do you need to exclude them from "allies"?

You speak as if the entire Jewish race is in some kind of conspiracy against Europe. The inventors of multiculturalism and cosmopolitanism, I might remind you, were Europeans. If some intellectual Jews grabbed the current of European intellectuals, you can hardly put the blame on the Jews.

The Jews? Responsible for the rise of communism? And how, exactly, has it benefited them? I would remind you that of all the Bolsheviks, Trotsky was the only major leader who was Jewish, the rest were native Russians, and on the continent, Marx's connexion with Jewish culture ends in his childhood; he spent the majority of his life an anti-Semite not so different than yourself.

Parasites? In what way? Mendelsohn (both of them), Heine, Disraeli, Friedjung-- these men were parasites? They contributed more to their countries and European culture than millions of Europeans did in their own day. What native-born European is speaking out with the vehemence of Lord Sachs against declining birthrates, other than National Socialists and anti-Semites who refuse to recognise our closest friends and allies? What people in Europe today has as much Folkish solidarity as the Jews, and want to see greater cultural solidarity in Europe? Do you think the Jews benefit from the fall of the Occident to outside forces? Think of it logically; even if they were the parasites you claim them to be, what do they gain from eradicating their host?

Like so many anti-Semites, you ignore plain reason and history on the matter, favouring a invented fantasy of a blood-thirsty beast in a kippah and a frock. The Jews as a whole have either tried to assimilate themselves, as any immigrant should do (after all, we condemn those who don't) or keep to themselves and not bother anyone. A few successful entrepreneurs, bankers, and businessmen does not make a racial conspiracy (think about it, of the roughly 11 million Ashkenazi on the planet, how many of them are businessmen or newspaper owners?), especially when people like the Rothschilds trampled as many of their "own people" as they did Europeans to keep their power. The only parasitic element of Jewry today are supporters of Israel, and you will find none of their number derive from Conservative or Orthodox Jewry, who are the closest to their own Jewishness of all Jews. Indeed, Israel the state is working tirelessly to destroy the Jewish diaspora that has for centuries been a brother to European culture and contributed to great achievements in science, music, and literature. It is the most contemporary and Europeanised Jews who contribute most to the West's downfall, imitating Europeans who are busily engaged in their own cultural suicide.

This is exactly the problem - anti-Semitism is nothing but scapegoating, and scapegoating only places the blame on someone else rather than facing the fact that our own people are to blame for the situation we're in and to fix the problem we have to address ourselves, not some mythical enemy. Men like Lord Sachs and the wider Jewish community could help us to clean out the filth, but instead the only people who are shouting loudly about European preservation turn them away and spit in their face - anti-Semites are as much to blame for the coming destruction as their blood-brothers on the left, while the Jews are working silently to prevent it.

[Alvarado]

According to this silly logic, Spaniards are whiter than South Africans like Kemp.
Let's see:

Overall Iberians are 7% (approx) north african (M81). If North Africans are 50% black (approx) , then Spaniards are 3-3'5% negro.

South Africans, on the other hand, seem to be 5-7% black/asian, which is almost the double of non-caucasian ancestry.


Research by J.A. Heese, who studied the genealogical composition of the Afrikaners looking at the period 1657 – 1867, has concluded that the Afrikaner nation´s ancestry was Dutch 34.8%, German 33.7%, French 13.2%, Non White 6.9%, British 5.2%, Other European nations 2.7%, Unknown 3.5%. GFC de Bruyn used a different form of calculation and his results were: Dutch 34.1%, German 29.2%, French 24.7%, British 0.3%, Other European nations 2.4%, Non European 5.4%, Unknown 3.9% (refer to J.S. Bergh ed., Herdenkingsjaar 1988, RTJ Lombard “Die bydrae van die Franse Hugenote tot Suid-Afrika se bevolkingsamestelling”). That means, the average Afrikaner (including Arthur Kemp himself) gets 5-7% of their ancestry from non-whites.


J. A. Heese, in Die Herkoms van die Afrikaner 1657-1867, presented the results of research from parish registers and other sources on the ancestors of the Afrikaners. He found that between 1660 and 1705, 191 of the settlers from Germany married or lived with women who were not pure blood Europeans. Of the women, 114 were born in the Cape (most probably mixed), 29 were Bengalis and 43 were from other Asian regions. He estimated that in 1807, between 7.2 and 10.7 percent of the ancestors of the then living Afrikaner population were Africans and Asians. His figures were perhaps inevitably conservative.


That explains cases like Sandra Laing, something impossible to find in Spain.

http://www.africansuccess.org/docs/image/PH2007052501036.jpg
http://kurioso.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/sandra_laing.jpg

[Ibericus]

According to this silly logic, Spaniards are whiter than South Africans like Kemp.
Let's see:

Overall Iberians are 7% (approx) north african (M81). If North Africans are 50% black (approx) , then Spaniards are 3-3'5% negro.

South Africans, on the other hand, seem to be 5-7% black/asian, which is almost the double of non-caucasian ancestry.
Alvarado, the 4-7% is the frequency of the haplogroup E-M81, but haplogroups have nothing to do with admixture. When using autosomal the NA admixture is 2-3 % only :

"A European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at between 2.5% and 3.4%. [39][40]"

Dupanloup, I. (2004). "Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans". Molecular Biology and Evolution

[Alvarado]

Alvarado, the 4-7% is the frequency of the haplogroup E-M81, but haplogroups have nothing to do with admixture. When using autosomal the NA admixture is 2-3 % only :


I know:

According to this silly logic

[Osweo]

Herodutos, of course, live in the 5th Century BC (circa 484 BC - 425 BC) and merely collected snippets he heard during his lifetime. In his Histories, he was at pains to point out that he was merely recounting what was told to him, and did not claim it as fact.
I've barely been to France, but it's nearby and loads of people I know and trust can tell me about it. That's quite comparable with Herodotus and Libya. This is not 'snippets', but information of vital everyday import to merchants and other travellers that Herodotus spoke to. And most of what he says is demonstrable from archaeology and Egyptian inscriptions and reliefs, anyway.

When you read some of the more bizarre sections of the Historiies, which include tales of witchcraft and monsters, you can see what he meant.
There's actually very little of that in there. Off the top of my head, I just remember the griffins in the far east, obviously somewhere MUCH further away than Africa, where there were established Greek colonies (Kyrenaika etc.) in constant communication with their metropoli.

He is more famous for being the first to try and organise a historical account, rather than for the accuracy of his stories.
Modern academics have to eat, and many scratch a living from 'deconstructing' great authors they couldn't dream of equalling in real achievement. :rolleyes:
(And if you read the various foundation myths in there as literal accounts, then you're rather missing the point.)

[Loki]

South Africans, on the other hand, seem to be 5-7% black/asian, which is almost the double of non-caucasian ancestry.


Heese's "research" is not based on concrete facts, but mere politically-motivated speculation. And by the way, South Africans are over 80% black for what it's worth.

As Psychonaut said, it is truly silly to try to deride Kemp's own looks/heritage in order to score points for your own arguments. It's as if you've run out of facts, and then resort to personal insults.

[Alvarado]

Heese's "research" is not based on concrete facts, but mere politically-motivated speculation.

Isn't Kemp based on politically-motivated speculation?
Since when is kemp geneticist?

[Loki]

Isn't Kemp based on politically-motivated speculation?
Since when is kemp geneticist?

I have not defended Kemp's arguments, I've only pointed to the fact that throwing personal insults at him does not invalidate his works. If he writes about Spaniards, then it is no intelligent response to retort about South Africans.

[Don]

I have not defended Kemp's arguments, I've only pointed to the fact that throwing personal insults at him does not invalidate his works. If he writes about Spaniards, then it is no intelligent response to retort about South Africans.

Is not intelligent even to refute with logic, rationalism or real data speeches based in myths and legends.

[Alvarado]

I have not defended Kemp's arguments, I've only pointed to the fact that throwing personal insults at him does not invalidate his works. If he writes about Spaniards, then it is no intelligent response to retort about South Africans.

I haven't insulted Kemp or South Africans, my point is that kemp's theory is contradictory, nothing more. If kemp feels insulted because I called him non-nordic, it's not my problem.

[Aviane]

The curious thing of this is that their senseless troll's poos always get a member's support, in this case the French, Cleemont. :thumbs up

Nah I think you have got the wrong end of the stick here mate, I didn't realise he was a troll, so I think jumping the gun is a big mistake here my friend.

[Don]

Nah I think you have got the wrong end of the stick here mate, I didn't realise he was a troll, so I think jumping the gun is a big mistake here my friend.

I'm not your friend, french.

[Aviane]

I'm not your friend, french.

Ah, don't worry I know. ;)

[Joe McCarthy]

Btw you are wrong that Ashkenazis are a minority, they represent 80% of Jews

I'm speaking of the population of Israel, not global Jewry. Ashkenazi Jews are a minority of Israeli Jewry, nevermind the Israeli population as a whole.

[Joe McCarthy]

What Spanish case ? There is no spanish case. Btw I have already demonstrated to you with a scientific link that it's not true they are lighter but whatever. That is where Ashkenazis cluster genetically compared to europeans

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png

http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg


You provided a skin reflectance chart that assessed Israel as a whole, not Ashkenazi Jews specifically. That's a bit like trying to assess the Boers by using a chart pertaining to all of South Africa. There are many dark elements in Israel besides the Ashkenazim, obviously.

And a recent study posted at Pontikos' site showed that the Ashkenazim are 35-55% European.

[Joe McCarthy]

Any source?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Avshalom_Elitzur_Picture.jpg

Why would a source be needed for what is an elementary fact? That the Ashkenazim are lighter than Spaniards is clear from observation.


There's something strange in this off-topic jewish bullshit, I'm wondering what has to do this with Kemp.


If Spaniards are not even as light as the Ashkenazim it indicates Kemp is onto something. But I see that elsewhere in this thread you concede there is mixing, so it's become moot.

[Don]

Why would a source be needed for what is an elementary fact? That the Ashkenazim are lighter than Spaniards is clear from observation.

Have you visited Spain? Do you know what you are talking about?

Because:

Is not intelligent even to refute with logic, rationalism or real data speeches based in myths and legends.

[Joe McCarthy]

Don't you know why Spanish are darker?? It's because of the miscegenation with african slaves in Spain, everyone knows that! It's clearly visible on their facial features and DNA, only blind men can't see it.

That there is African admixture in the Spanish is not controversial. It varies by region but the real question is whether it occurred in prehistoric times or during the slave trade and Moorish occupation.

The Spanish can take heart though. They're still not as mixed as the Portuguese.

On a side note, to head off all of this 'you guys are mixed too' stuff I'm seeing on this thread, let it be said that Iberia contains high levels of African admixture rarely seen elsewhere in Europe. If you don't believe me plug in 'African admixture in Europe' into Google and start reading.

[Falkata]

If Spaniards are not even as light as the Ashkenazim it indicates Kemp is onto something. But I see that elsewhere in this thread you concede there is mixing, so it's become moot.

Being lighter doesn´t mean that you´re more european

http://cdn.extracine.com/files/2009/11/george-clooney-20060805-150209.jpg

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/blond-mongol-girl.jpg

Anyway, Coon´s pigmentation is similar to any random spaniard

[Guapo]

They're still not as mixed as the Portuguese.



So a political border stops teh Spaniards from being not as mixed as their Iberian neighbor lol

[Ibericus]

I'm speaking of the population of Israel, not global Jewry. Ashkenazi Jews are a minority of Israeli Jewry, nevermind the Israeli population as a whole.
No. Israel is about 50% ashkenazim. Btw we are still waiting for a source on the lighter skin of Ashkenazies compared to Spaniards. Btw the gene responsible for the white skin of Europeans is found in 99.9 % of Europeans and rarely found outside of Europe. Oh, and skin ligthning has nothing to do with admixture, the darker skin of southern europeans has to do with climate, adaptation and selection to environment, not foreign admixture.


That there is African admixture in the Spanish is not controversial. It varies by region but the real question is whether it occurred in prehistoric times or during the slave trade and Moorish occupation.

The Spanish can take heart though. They're still not as mixed as the Portuguese.

On a side note, to head off all of this 'you guys are mixed too' stuff I'm seeing on this thread, let it be said that Iberia contains high levels of African admixture rarely seen elsewhere in Europe. If you don't believe me plug in 'African admixture in Europe' into Google and start reading.
Not really. The african admixture in Southern Europe is pretty much the same as in all Europe.

[TheSeeker]

Still waiting for someone to refute the DNA evidence. . . . maybe I should not hold my breath.

[Lábaru]

http://www.todosfondos.net/img%281024x768%29/Cine%20y%20Television/Star-Wars-Episodio-2/Wallpapers%203114-6-Star-Wars-Episode-II-Attack-of-the-Clones.jpg

[Osweo]

That there is African admixture in the Spanish is not controversial. It varies by region but the real question is whether it occurred in prehistoric times or during the slave trade and Moorish occupation.
The way you use the word 'African' and treat the three 'alternatives' you offer as though they were identical, marks your position out as woefully simplistic.

Ahem;
in prehistoric times
There are slight indications of possible substrate commonalities between Berber and Basque. The syntax of Welsh (and possibly through that even English) has been said to display the same.
What are we dealing with here? Hamitic speakers up the Atlantic facade? Personally, I'm inclined to suppose a common substrate along that facade that predates Vasconic in Iberia AND Hamitic speech in the Maghreb. Hamitic is a cousin of Semitic, various Ethiopian languages and Ancient Egyptian, and the common ancestor probably lived around the Red Sea. From that, it seems to me that Hamitic spread across North Africa at some point in prehistory, naturally displacing earlier languages. These earlier languages left their imprint on Berber and the other languages above. Basque's vocabulary has more in common with other language groups than Hamitic, so the connection is clearly a tenuous one, for which the shared substrate hypothesis might make a lot of sense.

or during the slave trade
Black slaves, from Guinea, Angola and the Congo. These have NOTHING in common with Berbers, proto Berbers, or anything. How you can lump them in the same sentence astounds me. Given that your argument cites genetics, it's all the more absurd, as these slaves differed from the Berbers almost as much as from you or I!
and Moorish occupation
Again, an utterly different kettle of fish.
What is a 'Moor' in Spain in 1200 AD? Often nothing like the proto/pre-Hamites or negro slaves above. It could be a pure Arab from Mecca. It could be a pure Berber. It could EVEN be a converted Visigoth! If we include all islamicised peoples between Mecca and Toledo into this list, and add every possible mix of them into the question, there you have your 'Moor'. Considering the later Moriscos, the local Iberian stock was of perhaps even majority proportion here. Arabs and Arabicised Berbers were the initial upper class, but thanks to their repellent harem slavery breeding strategy every subsequent generation was less and less African. Given that the Spanish did their best to expel even the slightly Moorish descendants, we can see that the 'leakage' into the modern population of Iberia will be very minor.


The Spanish can take heart though. They're still not as mixed as the Portuguese.
This is such tiresome nonsense. According to your supposed quantity of mixing, Portuguese should look in many cases like Wentworth Miller. I went to Portugal, to the very southernmost part in the Algarve, when I was a boy, and I didn't see such people, nor have I noticed them since in Portuguese ex-pats and diplomats that I've met in London, Dover, Moscow and Minsk. :shrug:

On a side note, to head off all of this 'you guys are mixed too' stuff I'm seeing on this thread, let it be said that Iberia contains high levels of African admixture rarely seen elsewhere in Europe. If you don't believe me plug in 'African admixture in Europe' into Google and start reading.
I trust my own eyes better, thanks.

Anyway, Coon´s pigmentation is similar to any random spaniard
Mine too (I was in Granada this year, and met many Spaniards). This is all surreal.

[Loki]

I think that's enough for now. We've re-hashed this subject over and over again on this forum.