Genetic Breakdown

[DanielJ1eH]

If someone has only 0-4% of a NW African component and the Northwest African component is comprised of small percentage of SSA, the final amount of SSA in the person with 0-4% would be how much if any?

The same with the Southwest Asian component.

I don't know if this question makes any sense at all but I'm giving it a shot.

[Petalpusher]

If someone has only 0-4% of a NW African component and the Northwest African component is comprised of small percentage of SSA, the final amount of SSA in the person with 0-4% would be how much if any?

The same with the Southwest Asian component.

I don't know if this question makes any sense at all but I'm giving it a shot.

Multiply by 0,2.

0,08 for SW_Asian. Theorically.

[DanielJ1eH]

4.7 x 0.2 = 0.94 which doesn't even reach a full percentage.

Noise.

Where did you get the 0.2 and 0.08 from?

4.7 x 0.2 x 0.08 = 0.0752

I don't think that's a full percentage either.

[Petalpusher]

4.7 x 0.2 = 0.94 which doesn't even reach a full percentage.

Noise.

Where did you get the 0.2 from?

I wouldn't say 1% is noise, it's likely what you would get at low K, but then could be very old.

20% is the average for a N.African component usually.

[DanielJ1eH]

I wouldn't say 1% is noise, it's likely what you would get at low K, and could be very old.

20% is the average for a N.African component usually.

It's not 1%. It's 0.94 which doesn't even reach 0.95 which is where you'd round up. Technically speaking.

The Eurogenes K36 which seperates the NW African component even further lists it at 2.98% with the rest being Middle Eastern which is more accurate since it's at a higher K.

So 2.98 x 0.2 = 0.596.

0.60%

If something can't even reach a full 1%, especially when divided from K12 into K36 it's definetley noise.

[Petalpusher]

It's not 1%. It's 0.94 which doesn't even reach 0.95 which is where you'd round up. Technically speaking.

The Eurogenes K36 which seperates the NW African component even further lists it at 2.98% with the rest being Middle Eastern which is more accurate since it's at a higher K.

So 2.98 x 0.2 = 0.596.

0.60%

Modern middle eastern certainly has some too all things added up, at very low K it may even have as much as it isn't really closer to WHG/SHG (that's the reference considered to assess African). Either way bottom line is it's not that important, it's your 99 other %


K36 is old and outdated (no, crazy high K isn't more precise)

[DanielJ1eH]

Modern middle eastern certainly has some too, at very low K it may even have as much as it isn't really closer to WHG/SHG (that's the reference considered to assess African). Either way bottom line is it's not that important, it's your 99 other %

Was just saying it doesn't crack a full 1.00%.

I don't know how much SSA is in Middle Eastern in the Eurogenes K36. If somebody only has 2 or 3% of that, then the 0.60 would probably go up to 0.70.

[DanielJ1eH]

At the lower K it only comes out at 0.37.

Dodecad K7b.

[Petalpusher]

At the lower K it only comes out at 0.37.

Dodecad K7b.

K7b is a modern pop based calculator, quite old too.

Try Eurogenes K7, Gedrosia K10, K6, or even K3 to see what is either forced to fall into Caucasoid, Mongoloid or African.

[DanielJ1eH]

K7b is a modern pop based calculator, quite old too.

Try Eurogenes K7, Gedrosia K10, K6, or even K3 to see what is either forced to fall into Caucasoid, Mongoloid or African.

The Eurogenes ANE K7 is very inaccurate. It was giving people from Britain East African results in the 1% category.

[Grab the Gauge]

If something can't even reach a full 1%, especially when divided from K12 into K36 it's definetley noise.

LOL, no, it's not. Mixed race people are so obsessed with the word "noise". 0.60% autosomal admixture isn't noise, it's huge. That's the equivalent contribution of a great-great-great-great Grandparent. You're substantially Negroid admixed, and don't you forget it.

[DanielJ1eH]

LOL, no, it's not. Mixed race people are so obsessed with the word "noise". 0.60% autosomal admixture isn't noise, it's huge. That's the equivalent contribution of a great-great-great-great Grandparent. You're substantially Negroid admixed, and don't you forget it.

LMAFO!

You are a GOOD troll.

[Petalpusher]

The Eurogenes ANE K7 is very inaccurate. It was giving people from Britain East African results in the 1% category.

Not all, and E.African is only half SSA. It was giving the right amount to people with documented African, even 2-3%, so it was accurate, just what you usually don't see at higher K. Some can probably be mistaken for archaic admixture, as E_Asian score a little too. Again no need to obsess over it but if you really want to go deep, low K will usually show more of everything non "Caucasoid".

[DanielJ1eH]

Not all, and E.African is only half SSA. It was giving the right amount to people with documented African, even 2-3%, so it was accurate, just what you usually don't see at higher K. Some can probably be mistaken for archaic admixture, as E_Asian score a little too. Again no need to obsess over it but if you really want to go deep, low K will usually show more of everything non "Caucasoid".

Not all of these calculators are showing consistent results. Even at the low levels.

The ones at the really low levels have to be mega ancient. So much so that everybody would get some sort of SSA result.

[Grab the Gauge]

LMAO. I'm not "mixed race". Substantially XD!

Your a good troll though.

Thank you. You're still mixed, by the way. I know this because I saw you doing those headspins in the living room last night. White people don't do headspins in the living room at night, much less to loud bass music.

[DanielJ1eH]

Thank you. You're still mixed, by the way. I know this because I saw you doing those headspins in the living room last night.

I'm mixed.....says the South African.

If I'm mixed then your a full on nigger.

[Petalpusher]

Not all of these calculators are showing consistent results. Even at the low levels.

The ones at the really low levels have to be mega ancient. So much so that everybody would get some sort of SSA result.

You cannot get the same values at different K, with different ancient/pop references, that's a given. It's like describing a particular reddish tone with 3 colors, 6 or 18, that are not even the same red, green, blue,... You ll never get the same results, even though you are always describing the same color/genome.

[Grab the Gauge]

I'm mixed.....says the South African.

If I'm mixed then your a full on nigger.

White people typically don't behave like this.



https://WWW.youtube.com/watch?v=N_0kPNxE9bU

[DanielJ1eH]

You cannot get the same values at different K, with different ancient/pop references, that's a given. It's like describing a particular reddish tone with 3 colors, 6 or 18, that are not even the same red, green, blue,... You ll never get the same results, even though you are always describing the same color/genome.

Well. The Gedrosia K3 and Eurogenes ANE7 are definetley not accurate.

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

What is your known ancestry?

[Petalpusher]

Well. The Gedrosia K3 and Eurogenes ANE7 are definetley not accurate.

They are accurate for what they do, deep seated tests, forcing alleles into distinct components. Oracles don't really matter for those.

What do you get at K3?

[DanielJ1eH]

They are accurate for what they do, deep seated tests, forcing alleles into distinct components. Oracles don't really matter for those.

What do you get at K3?

What did you get?

[DanielJ1eH]

They are accurate for what they do, deep seated tests, forcing alleles into distinct components. Oracles don't really matter for those.

What do you get at K3?

Not really.

HarappaWorld, Gedrosia, etc are all really unreliable for some people. I've seen some really odd results.

The best ones I find are the Dodecad K12b and the Eurogenes Hunter-Gatherer Vs Farmer test for race which lists all the major components. Some of my results are very inconsistent on different calculators so it's hard to find one to trust. These calculators were made with Europeans in mind.

The reason Gedrosia K3 is awful is because it assumes that something is either West Asian, East Asian, or SSA when it can be either or. Higher K = better detail.

Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer

Anatolian Farmer 19.04
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 31.03
Middle Eastern Herder 6.71
East Asian Farmer -
South American Hunter Gatherer 0.45
South Asian Hunter Gatherer -
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 0.09
East African Pastoralist 0.70
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer -
Mediterranean Farmer - 41.93
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer -
Bantu Farmer -


Dodecad K12b:

Population
Gedrosia 7.58
Siberian 0.06
Northwest_African 4.79
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 35.59
North_European 25.29
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 5.08
East_Asian -
Caucasus 21.60
Sub_Saharan -

[Neon Knight]

Bear in mind that GEDmatch tests do not give confidence/accuracy levels, and neither does Ancestry.com. The 23andMe Conservative reading is only at 90% confidence so I don't think very small %s should be taken seriously with current tests.

[DanielJ1eH]

Bear in mind that GEDmatch tests do not give confidence/accuracy levels, and neither does Ancestry.com. The 23andMe Conservative reading is only at 90% confidence so I don't think very small %s should be taken seriously with current tests.

I agree. All of these calculators are bullshit. 23andme is an actual company with a labratory and everything. I just use the Conservative level on 23andme and go off on that.

I actually e-mailed a geneticist one time. Doug McDonald and he told me that any number at a 90% confidence rate that is 0. whatever is just noise. An actual geneticist told me.

None of these other calculators. You don't know if people have biases or not.

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

I agree. All of these calculators are bullshit. 23andme is an actual company with a labratory and everything. I just use the Conservative level on 23andme and go off on that.

I actually e-mailed a geneticist one time. Doug McDonald and he told me that any number at a 90% confidence rate that is 0. whatever is just noise. An actual geneticist told me.

None of these other calculators. You don't know if people have biases or not.

It's not that people have biases, it's that the majority of calculators are focused on Europe and don't care about North African admixture. East Africans are around 50% North African and Southwest Asian, and "steal" their genes if the calculator doesn't account for it (and most don't, but to be fair, it's very hard to find an East African that has only sub-Saharan DNA. And, you know, it's hard to get DNA from them as most people there don't get tested :rolleyes2:). You complained about Eurogenes K7 not being accurate, and it is due to this problem.

A good analogy for it would be if they measured Native American admixture using average Mexicans. Sure they are 50% Native American, but they are also 50% Iberian, and would certainly steal some Iberian genes if the calculator used them, and in the end most Iberians getting tested would score a good bit of Native American (and would be very confused about it :confused:). Obviously there are 100% Native Americans all over South America that make measuring Native American admixture a lot easier, but in the case of East Africans, we would have to either filter out the Caucasian genes from them, or find an ancient East African that still doesn't have Caucasian genes. And that's not gonna happen soon.

Anyway, take your East African percentages in practically all Gedmatch calculators with a very big grain of salt, and don't take Gedmatch calculators too seriously. 23andMe tries to measure only the last 500 years and does a pretty good job of it, and Gedmatch tries to measure ancient admixture and does an average job when it comes to admixture from within Europe (obviously it varies from calculator to calculator), but fails quite a bit when handling admixture from outside of Europe, as it isn't the calculators main focus.

[Grab the Gauge]

Looks like Daniel here is having more have a mental breakdown than a genetic breakdown. Why can't you just love your 0.60% shuckin'-and-jivin' ass self?

[DanielJ1eH]

Looks like Daniel here is having more have a mental breakdown than a genetic breakdown. Why can't you just love your 0.60% shuckin'-and-jivin' ass self?

What's your percentage?

[DanielJ1eH]

It's not that people have biases, it's that the majority of calculators are focused on Europe and don't care about North African admixture. East Africans are around 50% North African and Southwest Asian, and "steal" their genes if the calculator doesn't account for it (and most don't, but to be fair, it's very hard to find an East African that has only sub-Saharan DNA. And, you know, it's hard to get DNA from them as most people there don't get tested :rolleyes2:). You complained about Eurogenes K7 not being accurate, and it is due to this problem.

A good analogy for it would be if they measured Native American admixture using average Mexicans. Sure they are 50% Native American, but they are also 50% Iberian, and would certainly steal some Iberian genes if the calculator used them, and in the end most Iberians getting tested would score a good bit of Native American (and would be very confused about it :confused:). Obviously there are 100% Native Americans all over South America that make measuring Native American admixture a lot easier, but in the case of East Africans, we would have to either filter out the Caucasian genes from them, or find an ancient East African that still doesn't have Caucasian genes. And that's not gonna happen soon.

Anyway, take your East African percentages in practically all Gedmatch calculators with a very big grain of salt, and don't take Gedmatch calculators too seriously. 23andMe tries to measure only the last 500 years and does a pretty good job of it, and Gedmatch tries to measure ancient admixture and does an average job when it comes to admixture from within Europe (obviously it varies from calculator to calculator), but fails quite a bit when handling admixture from outside of Europe, as it isn't the calculators main focus.

Sums it up pretty good.

[Petalpusher]

What did you get?


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 W_Eurasian 97.65
2 E_Eurasian 2.35

Finished reading population data. 129 populations found.
3 components mode.



Not really.

HarappaWorld, Gedrosia, etc are all really unreliable for some people. I've seen some really odd results.

The best ones I find are the Dodecad K12b and the Eurogenes Hunter-Gatherer Vs Farmer test for race which lists all the major components. Some of my results are very inconsistent on different calculators so it's hard to find one to trust. These calculators were made with Europeans in mind.


Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer

Anatolian Farmer 19.04
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 31.03
Middle Eastern Herder 6.71
East Asian Farmer -
South American Hunter Gatherer 0.45
South Asian Hunter Gatherer -
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 0.09
East African Pastoralist 0.70
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer -
Mediterranean Farmer - 41.93
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer -
Bantu Farmer -


Yes of course you find accurate one calculator that gives you what you want and dismiss everything else, how original. This one in particular is like the most outdated out there... they couldn't estimate properly all these things without the actual genomes, it was decent guessing but no more than that as it predates the important releases from several ages of the Levant, Anatolia, Iran and everything we had since then, even all the new HG's in the holocene. It's not because some new calculators don't give you the results you want they are less accurate, they are naturally more accurate as they have more genomes to build components, clusters, and to filter things. Some could have better oracles, more population, produce less noise, but they aren't less accurate. The only real measure of confidence is on how much ancient dna the components you score have been priorly compared to. It's most of the dstat work done in all modern studies, if people could begin to actually read them they would get this.

The thing is none have been designed to cure people's often silly obsessions with minimal African, but to look at the whole genome. Yet you still score East African here, there s a fair chance you will constantly score low amounts since you apparently get some at low K and N.African at higher K. No big deal, very standard for your ancestry. You can think it's noise, maybe it is also underestimating if it keeps showing up, why not it works both way, again for people with distant documented African ancestry, it's usually more underestimated than anything.




The reason Gedrosia K3 is awful is because it assumes that something is either West Asian, East Asian, or SSA when it can be either or. Higher K = better detail.

It's the sole purpose of this kind of low K calculator to do exactly that. You want to see things both at low and high K, studies use both, it's not more or less accurate it's a different prism. What do you think you are using on Gedmatch? your 23andme datas, the genotyping is already done, you don't need a laboratory to count SNP's then.


Understanding all this doesn't matter i guess in your case anyway, my advice is to simply put your genome in the bin and delete it, you will get 0% of everything you dislike, 100% accuracy guaranted.

[firemonkey]

My K3

FTDNA

Population
E_Eurasian 3.91
SSA 0.72
W_Eurasian 95.37


Ancestry

Population
E_Eurasian 3.79
SSA 0.75
W_Eurasian 95.46


23andMe

Population
E_Eurasian 4.34
SSA 0.40
W_Eurasian 95.26

My father's-FTDNA

Population
E_Eurasian 3.47
SSA -
W_Eurasian 96.53

[DanielJ1eH]

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 W_Eurasian 97.65
2 E_Eurasian 2.35

Finished reading population data. 129 populations found.
3 components mode.




Yes of course you find accurate one calculator that gives you what you want and dismiss everything else, how original. This one in particular is like the most outdated out there... they couldn't estimate properly all these things without the actual genomes, it was decent guessing but no more than that as it predates the important releases from several ages of the Levant, Anatolia, Iran and everything we had since then, even all the new HG's in the holocene. It's not because some new calculators don't give you the results you want they are less accurate, they are naturally more accurate as they have more genomes to build components, clusters, and to filter things. Some could have better oracles, more population, produce less noise, but they aren't less accurate. The only real measure of confidence is on how much ancient dna the components you score have been priorly compared to. It's most of the dstat work done in all modern studies, if people could begin to actually read them they would get this.

The thing is none have been designed to cure people's often silly obsessions with minimal African, but to look at the whole genome. Yet you still score East African here, there s a fair chance you will constantly score low amounts since you apparently get some at low K and N.African at higher K. No big deal, very standard for your ancestry. You can think it's noise, maybe it is also underestimating if it keeps showing up, why not it works both way, again for people with distant documented African ancestry, it's usually more underestimated than anything.
I don't have "documented" distant African ancestry.

The East African dissapears on different calculators. Sometimes being totally absent. Like one user before you said. I don't consistently score small amounts. I could give you all the calculators with East African and you'd see. I'm taking all African percentages with a grain of salt.

I don't trust these calculators 100%.

BY THE WAY, I was reading the Spreadsheet for the Gedrosia K3 (the one that has West Eurasian, East Eurasian, and SSA as categories), and if it is indeed 100% accurate and correct than NO European is free of Negroid Admixture besides the Belorussians, Norweigen, Finnishm Lithuanian, Ukranian, and the Stuttgart sample. If all alleels are only forced into 3 categories the LBK_EN, English, Czech, Croatian, Greek, Sicilian, Spanish, French, Southern French, and Northern Italian ALL have percentages ranging from 0% to around 3 to 4%. This would mean that there is basal SSA in all European groups whether we like it or not. The Southern French comes out at about 1% SSA, specifically, 0.60% SSA. If you round that up it becomes 1% anyways. Greeks come out at 1%, Sardinians 2% I think and the Spanish come out at about 3 or 4%.

[DanielJ1eH]

My K3

FTDNA

Population
E_Eurasian 3.91
SSA 0.72
W_Eurasian 95.37


Ancestry

Population
E_Eurasian 3.79
SSA 0.75
W_Eurasian 95.46


23andMe

Population
E_Eurasian 4.34
SSA 0.40
W_Eurasian 95.26

My father's-FTDNA

Population
E_Eurasian 3.47
SSA -
W_Eurasian 96.53

Your British and get 1% SSA on the Gedrosia K3 if you round up from 0.70%. How do you explain that?

23andme gives me ZERO SSA.

[firemonkey]

O.75/0.72/0.40 to be precise. Almost certainly noise, if not it's very ancient. 23andMe gives me zero SSA too. FTDNA gives me 1% North African.

[DanielJ1eH]

O.75/0.72/0.40 to be precise. Almost certainly noise, if not very ancient. 23andMe gives me zero SSA too. FTDNA gives me 1% North African.

Do you think Europeans who score 1% or 1%. whatever on this calculator just noise? I mean, I saw the LBK_EN sample, which I think is English score 1% something SSA.

[Petalpusher]

I don't have "documented" distant African ancestry.

The East African dissapears on different calculators. Sometimes being totally absent. Like one user before you said. I'm taking all African percentages with a grain of salt.

I don't trust these calculators 100%.

BY THE WAY, I was reading the Spreadsheet for the Gedrosia K3 (the one that has West Eurasian, East Eurasian, and SSA as categories), and if it is indeed 100% accurate and correct than NO European is free of Negroid Admixture besides the Belorussians and the Stuttgart sample. If all aleells are only forced into 3 categories the English, Czech, Croatian, Greek, Sicilian, Spanish, French, Southern French, and Northern Italian ALL have percentages ranging from 0% to around 3 to 4%. This would mean that there is basal SSA in all European groups whether we like it or not. The Southern French come out at 0.60% SSA. If you round that up it becomes 1%.

That's a funny how you do rounding for others and not yourself... but whatever, those are averages, it means some score it, some don't. Basal Eurasian is a couple of percent SSA, because it's OoA stuff, just like ENA will give you some ASE. It's designed to see a shift at world scale. If we were considering SSA in the last 50ky absolutely anyone could be either modeled with some SSA and/or some ASE, most of the time both, that's expected. However being +95% West Eurasian is already the highest caucasoid admixture you ll find, except a few isolated populations or ancient samples like Stuttgart, despite being of neolithic period it's genetically the most "caucasoid" genome all things considered, along with some others middle/late neo cultures. Europeans are splitting hairs for 0,x% but Africans also get some Eurasian, like East Asians can get some W.Eurasian.

N.Africans barely score any SSA on 23andme, while it's well know they do, either in studies, dstats or calculators, it's just embedded and hidden under "MENA".

[DanielJ1eH]

That's a funny how you do rounding for others and not yourself... but whatever, those are averages, it means some score it, some don't. Basal Eurasian is a couple of percent SSA, because it's OoA stuff, just like ENA will give you some ASE. It's designed to see a shift at world scale. If we were considering SSA in the last 50ky absolutely anyone could be either modeled with some SSA and/or some ASE, most of the time both, that's expected. However being +95% West Eurasian is already the highest caucasoid admixture you ll find, except a few isolated populations or ancient samples like Stuttgart, despite being of neolithic period it's genetically the most "caucasoid" genome all things considered, along with some others middle/late neo cultures. Europeans are splitting hairs for 0,x% but Africans also get some Eurasian, like East Asians can get some W.Eurasian.

N.Africans barely score any SSA on 23andme, while it's well know they do, either in studies, dstats or calculators, it's just embedded and hidden under "MENA".

You just answered my question. We all have SSA admixture since it's basal. I will round for everyone. Myself included.

I think they're splitting hair for 1.x% as well.

I scored 97% West Eurasian, incase your wondering. If 95%+ is the most Caucasoid someone can possibly be then I'll take that and run with it. If someone has 1. whatever % or 0.95 or 0.75 I'd think it's splitting hairs, don't you think?

[Petalpusher]

You just answered my question. We all have SSA admixture since it's basal. I will round for everyone. Myself included.

I think they're splitting hair for 1.x% as well.

I scored 97% West Eurasian, incase your wondering. If 95%+ is the most Caucasoid someone can possibly be then I'll take that and run with it. If someone has 1. whatever % or 0.95 or 0.75 I'd think it's splitting hairs, don't you think?

In general most Europeans are neutral or slightly E.Asian shifted (Paleo Siberian/Indian to be correct). MENA, are African shifted but still pred Caucasoid.


To put it bluntly, K3 creates this type of pca

https://s9.postimg.org/5833xrl71/1_2.png


Which is no different than the 23andme basic world plot

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/02/23me.png

[DanielJ1eH]

In General most Europeans are neutral or slightly E.Asian shifted (Paleo Siberian/Indian to be correct). MENA, African shifted.


To put it bluntly, K3 creates this type of pca

https://s9.postimg.org/5833xrl71/1_2.png


Which is no different than the 23andme basic world plot

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/02/23me.png
Would that include me as well?

Where would I be on the PCA?

On the 23andme basic world plot, I plot with Italians and Northern Italians, between Central and Southern Europe. Other groups I'm smudged in with are French and Austrian.

[Petalpusher]

Would that include me as well?

Where would I be on the PCA?

On the 23andme basic world plot, I plot with Italians and Northern Italians, between Central and Southern Europe. Other groups I'm smudged in with are French and Austrian.

I guess with the northernmost Italians maybe. You can post your K6 ANE (this is the forum's pca)

http://s17.postimg.org/by0mzfs99/newplot_16.png

[DanielJ1eH]

I guess with the northernmost Italians maybe. You can post your K6 ANE (this is the forum's pca)

http://s17.postimg.org/by0mzfs99/newplot_16.png

Are people splitting hairs with 0.x and 1.x?

Here's my K6 ANE.

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 19.50
Ancestral_South_Eurasian -
East_Asian -
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 35.39
Natufian 45.11
Sub_Saharan -

[DanielJ1eH]

Here's my K3. I'm of Italian, British/Irish, and Polish ancestry.

E_Eurasian 1.43
SSA 1.58
W_Eurasian 96.99


If the average Southern French Person comes in at 1% SSA rounded up and an Italian comes in at 2% I guess there really isn't any difference.

These are the Southern European SSA Averages "Rounded up" below:


Me - 1.57/8 rounded up is 2%

The average Croatian - 0.09%
The average Albanian - 1%
The average Bulgarian - 1%
The average Greek - 1%
The average Sardinian - 1%
The average Northern Italian from Bergamo - 1%
The average southern French Person - 1%
The average Spaniard - 2%
The average Sicilian - 3%

I highly doubt the SSA and East Asian exist though. For any European. Maybe they do maybe they don't. If what PetalPusher says is true, and it really is strictly filtering the alleells into three strict categories then no % is noise and all Europeans, even Northern Europeans, to some extent have SSA + Basal Eurasian SSA.

If we all have basal Eurasian SSA, like PetalPusher says then it really doesn't matter.

I do exceed the 95%+ Caucasoid limit though. I make it to 97%.

[Petalpusher]

Are people splitting hairs with 0.x and 1.x?

Here's my K6 ANE.

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 19.50
Ancestral_South_Eurasian -
East_Asian -
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 35.39
Natufian 45.11
Sub_Saharan -

Based on your scores, you are between NW Italians and Albanians, rather Tuscan like. Your Italian is S.Italy i presume.

[DanielJ1eH]

Based on your scores, you are between NW Italians and Albanians, rather Tuscan like. Your Italian is S.Italy i presume.

Between N.Italians and British Isles/Utah Whites I think. I don't know where you got Albania from.

My closest matches are always North_Italian and Tuscan. So you are correct.

What calculator is more correct the K6 or the K3? One shows SSA and one doesn't. For me and for others.

My Italian is 1/4 S.Italy (not Sicily) and 1/4 Central Italy.

You didn't answer my question about splitting hairs with 0's and 1,s though.

If 0.75% is noise then 1.x certainly is as well. They're not that far apart AT ALL.

[DanielJ1eH]

O.75/0.72/0.40 to be precise. Almost certainly noise, if not it's very ancient. 23andMe gives me zero SSA too. FTDNA gives me 1% North African.

Honestly, if it's 0.x or 1.x it has to be some sort of noise or error. If it's not and it really exists then your right, it's ancient and we ALL have some with the added Basal Eurasian SSA.

[Petalpusher]

Between N.Italians and British Isles/Utah Whites I think. I don't know where you got Albania from.

My closest matches are always North_Italian and Tuscan. So you are correct.

What calculator is more correct the K6 or the K3? One shows SSA and one doesn't. For me and for others.

My Italian is 1/4 S.Italy (not Sicily) and 1/4 Central Italy.

You didn't answer my question about splitting hairs with 0's and 1,s though.

Tuscan isn't between Utah/UK and N.Italians. It's where i said it is between N.Italians and Albanians (a lot of them approach Tuscans), but that makes sense if you are partly from S.Italy (Sicily is slightly more northern btw). What's your Oracle in K6?

Getting some a low K is possibly normal, at high K is less expected but can happen. Compared to K6 or higher, K3 extracts the Basal section of let's say Natufian or Iran_N so it can pop up.

[DanielJ1eH]

Tuscan isn't between Utah/UK and N.Italians. It's where i said it is between N.Italians and Albanians (a lot of them approach Tuscans), but that makes sense if you are partly from S.Italy (Sicily is slightly more northern btw). What's your Oracle in K6?

Getting some a low K is possibly normal, at high K is less expected but can happen. Compared to K6 or higher, K3 extracts the Basal section of let's say Natufian or Iran_N so it can pop up.

I think it's noise to be honest with you. "It might" is really "iffy". If it's really there and it doesn't pop up, it's still THERE, it's just that an error didn't show it. If it's Basal then it exists in all of us.

Here's my K6 Oracle:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Albanian 2.91
2 Bulgarian 3.59
3 Greek 4.2
4 Romanian 4.79
5 Sicilian 7.52
6 Croatian 8.44
7 Italian_South 8.55
8 Spanish 9.64
9 Jew_Ashkenazi 9.82
10 French 11.44
11 Hungarian 11.64
12 Czech 13.92
13 English 13.98
14 Jew_Moroccan 14.27
15 Ukrainian 15
16 Scottish 15.17
17 Armenia_ChL 15.47
18 Norwegian 15.72
19 Sardinian 15.84
20 Jew_Libyan 15.87

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.2% Europe_EN + 18.8% MA1 @ 0.4
2 81.2% Europe_EN + 18.8% AG2 @ 0.4
3 81.2% Europe_EN + 18.8% AG3 @ 0.4
4 62.2% Italian_South + 37.8% English @ 1.08
5 67.5% Italian_South + 32.5% Icelandic @ 1.08
6 61.9% Basque + 38.1% Georgian @ 1.12
7 62.1% Italian_South + 37.9% Czech @ 1.21
8 50.3% Croatian + 49.7% Italian_South @ 1.31
9 64.1% Italian_South + 35.9% Scottish @ 1.33
10 89.1% Italian_South + 10.9% Motala12 @ 1.34
11 65% Italian_South + 35% Norwegian @ 1.35
12 88.9% Italian_South + 11.1% SHG @ 1.38
13 72.1% Italian_South + 27.9% Lithuanian @ 1.39
14 68.8% Italian_South + 31.2% Europe_LNBA @ 1.44
15 63% French + 37% Cypriot @ 1.45
16 77.9% Greek + 22.1% English @ 1.46
17 57.4% Italian_South + 42.6% French @ 1.46
18 74.3% Greek + 25.7% French @ 1.47
19 81.8% Greek + 18.2% Icelandic @ 1.52
20 86.4% Albanian + 13.6% Norwegian @ 1.54

[Petalpusher]

See you get Albanian just as i predicted but this is because there s no Tuscan reference or N.Italian average. The rest is pretty standard, 80% early neo + 20% ANE, S.Italy + English etc.. as your known ancestry.

Any European has some basal Eurasian. Everything was basal Eurasian at some point anyway, it just splitted away earlier for some groups (ex: WHG). Even Scandinavians have significant Basal, 20-25%.

[DanielJ1eH]

See you get Albanian just as i predicted but this is because there s no Tuscan reference or N.Italian average. The rest is pretty standard, 80% early neo + 20% ANE, S.Italy + English etc.. as your known ancestry.

Any European has some basal Eurasian. Everything was basal Eurasian at some point anyway, it just splitted away earlier for some groups (ex: WHG). Even Scandinavians have significant Basal, 20-25%.

Can you put me on the Map? Where do I plot?

Are Jews used as a population reference because of the East Mediterranean?

[DanielJ1eH]

See you get Albanian just as i predicted but this is because there s no Tuscan reference or N.Italian average. The rest is pretty standard, 80% early neo + 20% ANE, S.Italy + English etc.. as your known ancestry.

Any European has some basal Eurasian. Everything was basal Eurasian at some point anyway, it just splitted away earlier for some groups (ex: WHG). Even Scandinavians have significant Basal, 20-25%.

Out of that how much is SSA? Why doesn't it show on the K3 for them as full percentages or does it for some of them?

[DanielJ1eH]

O.75/0.72/0.40 to be precise. Almost certainly noise, if not it's very ancient. 23andMe gives me zero SSA too. FTDNA gives me 1% North African.

It is most certainly not noise. You have Black in you and you better enjoy it. 1% if we are to do the correct thing and round up. Just as I am 2% if we are to round up.

[firemonkey]

If I have a smidgen of black ancestry that's fine by me, but you have changed your mind within a few posts. What happened to either 0.1 or 1 is noise?

[Petalpusher]

Can you put me on the Map? Where do I plot?

Are Jews used as a population reference because of the East Mediterranean?

You can see where you are with the mix mode, i would have to generate another pca for your results. I don't understand your question about Jews.


Out of that how much is SSA? Why doesn't it show on the K3 for them as full percentages or does it for some of them?

It is difficult to tell exactly until we find the right genome that looks exactly Basal Eurasian and it's complicated to find 50-100ky stuff in good condition in the region it is supposed to be found. This is really the last thing we lack for Eurasia. Eventually with time we will find this population. Based on Iran_N or Natufian, which is the equivalent of 75% Basal and 25% WHG, very little SSA could fit, if any it doesn't look like something comparable to modern SSA. Maybe 5% out of a basal score, if someone is 25% Basal, that's 1,25%, probably some of the "noise" we see at low K. It's also possible Basal is a mix of two things, one having no SSA whatsoever as some people don't score it at all even at low K. If you don't have alleles/snps peaking in African populations, you cannot invent them and it will show none or 0,x.

Btw why this rounding, there s no need to round these numbers, 0,6 is not 1%, like 60% is not 100%. I swear people scare the math out of me around here.

[Grace O'Malley]

You can see where you are with the mix mode, i would have to generate another pca for your results. I don't understand your question about Jews.



It is difficult to tell exactly until we find the right genome that looks exactly Basal Eurasian and it's complicated to find 50-100ky stuff in good condition in the region it is supposed to be found. This is really the last thing we lack for Eurasia. Eventually with time we will find this population. Based on Iran_N or Natufian, which is the equivalent of 75% Basal and 25% WHG, very little SSA could fit, if any it doesn't look like something comparable to modern SSA. Maybe 5% out of a basal score, if someone is 25% Basal, that's 1,25%, probably some of the "noise" we see at low K. It's also possible Basal is a mix of two things, one having no SSA whatsoever as some people don't score it at all even at low K. If you don't have alleles/snps peaking in African populations, you cannot invent them and it will show none or 0,x.

Btw why this rounding, there s no need to round these numbers, 0,6 is not 1%, like 60% is not 100%. I swear people scare the math out of me around here.

The only problem I have with these new calculators is that they are very wrong for my single population. The K6 for example gives me this. How is that accurate for someone like myself who knows all my ancestry is Irish? Can someone explain this to me?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.1
2 Natufian 33.58
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.8
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.72
5 East_Asian 0.8

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 2.25
2 Norwegian 3.08
3 Czech 3.59
4 Scottish 3.69
5 Hungarian 4.35
6 English 4.47
7 Europe_LNBA 5.28
8 Icelandic 5.36
9 Croatian 6.64
10 French 6.76
11 Estonian 7.36
12 Lithuanian 8.59
13 Steppe_MLBA 8.91
14 Russian 9.34
15 Romanian 10
16 Finnish 10.18
17 Bulgarian 11.47
18 Spanish 11.51
19 Basque 13.24
20 Albanian 16.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.2% Norwegian + 5.8% Sindhi @ 0.38
2 93.7% Norwegian + 6.3% Kalash @ 0.47
3 93.7% Norwegian + 6.3% Pathan @ 0.48
4 77.5% Steppe_MLBA + 22.5% Europe_EN @ 0.5
5 94.1% Norwegian + 5.9% Balochi @ 0.52
6 94.1% Norwegian + 5.9% Brahui @ 0.55
7 94.1% Norwegian + 5.9% GujaratiA @ 0.55
8 94.2% Norwegian + 5.8% Punjabi @ 0.55
9 94% Norwegian + 6% Kurd_SE @ 0.58
10 90.1% Icelandic + 9.9% Brahui @ 0.6
11 90.1% Icelandic + 9.9% Balochi @ 0.62
12 94.1% Norwegian + 5.9% Makrani @ 0.64
13 90% Icelandic + 10% Makrani @ 0.67
14 94.5% Norwegian + 5.5% GujaratiB @ 0.67
15 93.1% Norwegian + 6.9% Pashtun_Afghan @ 0.69
16 87.5% Europe_LNBA + 12.5% Iran_N_WC1 @ 0.73
17 67.5% Hungarian + 32.5% Steppe_MLBA @ 0.74
18 89.9% Icelandic + 10.1% Kurd_SE @ 0.76
19 88.6% Hungarian + 11.4% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.77
20 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% GujaratiC @ 0.78

This is my Gedrosia K3 which is odd as well.

# Population Percent
1 W_Eurasian 96.28
2 E_Eurasian 3.72


Finished reading population data. 129 populations found.
3 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarian @ 0.000000
2 Lithuanian @ 0.000000
3 Ukrainian @ 0.798673
4 Bulgarian @ 1.021504
5 Norwegian @ 1.090978
6 Georgian @ 1.402482
7 Czech @ 1.441320
8 Croatian @ 1.525488
9 Belarusian @ 1.720995
10 Albanian @ 2.300726
11 French @ 2.354026
12 Estonian @ 2.384685
13 Greek @ 2.600676
14 Armenian @ 2.640962
15 English @ 2.858468
16 Abkhasian @ 2.949250
17 Loschbour @ 3.404620
18 Spanish @ 3.433906
19 French_South @ 3.644808
20 Georgian_Jew @ 3.688215

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Belarusian +50% Croatian @ 0.000000
2 50% Belarusian +50% Czech @ 0.000000
3 50% Belarusian +50% Norwegian @ 0.000000
4 50% Czech +50% Ukrainian @ 0.000000
5 50% English +50% Estonian @ 0.000000
6 50% English +50% Loschbour @ 0.000000
7 50% Estonian +50% French @ 0.000000
8 50% Hungarian +50% Hungarian @ 0.000000
9 50% Hungarian +50% Lithuanian @ 0.000000
10 50% Lithuanian +50% Lithuanian @ 0.000000
11 50% Norwegian +50% Ukrainian @ 0.000000
12 50% Hungarian +50% Ukrainian @ 0.258224
13 50% Croatian +50% Ukrainian @ 0.291618
14 50% Belarusian +50% French @ 0.295518
15 50% French_South +50% Loschbour @ 0.299300
16 50% Abkhasian +50% English @ 0.352250
17 50% Lithuanian +50% Ukrainian @ 0.384469
18 50% Bergamo +50% Loschbour @ 0.430212
19 50% Croatian +50% Estonian @ 0.431512
20 50% Albanian +50% Estonian @ 0.441452


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Belarusian +25% Belarusian +25% Stuttgart @ 0.000000

[Petalpusher]

The only problem I have with these new calculators is that they are very wrong for my single population. The K6 for example gives me this. How is that accurate for someone like myself who knows all my ancestry is Irish? Can someone explain this to me?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.1
2 Natufian 33.58
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.8
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.72
5 East_Asian 0.8

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 2.25
2 Norwegian 3.08
3 Czech 3.59
4 Scottish 3.69
5 Hungarian 4.35
6 English 4.47
7 Europe_LNBA 5.28
8 Icelandic 5.36
9 Croatian 6.64
10 French 6.76
11 Estonian 7.36
12 Lithuanian 8.59
13 Steppe_MLBA 8.91
14 Russian 9.34
15 Romanian 10
16 Finnish 10.18
17 Bulgarian 11.47
18 Spanish 11.51
19 Basque 13.24
20 Albanian 16.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.2% Norwegian + 5.8% Sindhi @ 0.38
2 93.7% Norwegian + 6.3% Kalash @ 0.47
3 93.7% Norwegian + 6.3% Pathan @ 0.48
4 77.5% Steppe_MLBA + 22.5% Europe_EN @ 0.5
5 94.1% Norwegian + 5.9% Balochi @ 0.52
6 94.1% Norwegian + 5.9% Brahui @ 0.55
7 94.1% Norwegian + 5.9% GujaratiA @ 0.55
8 94.2% Norwegian + 5.8% Punjabi @ 0.55
9 94% Norwegian + 6% Kurd_SE @ 0.58
10 90.1% Icelandic + 9.9% Brahui @ 0.6
11 90.1% Icelandic + 9.9% Balochi @ 0.62
12 94.1% Norwegian + 5.9% Makrani @ 0.64
13 90% Icelandic + 10% Makrani @ 0.67
14 94.5% Norwegian + 5.5% GujaratiB @ 0.67
15 93.1% Norwegian + 6.9% Pashtun_Afghan @ 0.69
16 87.5% Europe_LNBA + 12.5% Iran_N_WC1 @ 0.73
17 67.5% Hungarian + 32.5% Steppe_MLBA @ 0.74
18 89.9% Icelandic + 10.1% Kurd_SE @ 0.76
19 88.6% Hungarian + 11.4% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.77
20 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% GujaratiC @ 0.78

The main issue is there s no Irish average but i would say you wouldn't be far from it if there was, maybe it would be your 1st match. As in other calculators you have some sort of steppe shift, something common for some UK people apparently, i don't totally understand it, you are like 95% Norwegian with some C&S Asian/ASE. I don't think it's the calculator as Graham for example gets English/Scottish on top.

K3 orace doesn't matter, it's not the point of the calculator.

[Grace O'Malley]

The main issue is there s no Irish average but i would say you wouldn't be far from it if there was, maybe it would be your 1st match. As in other calculators you have some sort of steppe shift, something common for some UK people apparently, i don't totally understand it, you are like 95% Norwegian with some C&S Asian/ASE. I don't think it's the calculator as Graham for example gets English/Scottish on top.

Well I definitely don't understand it. I'm waiting for the new MDLP calculator by Vadim Verenich to come out which has so many different samples from all areas of Europe. That should be interesting for a lot of people and you would think more accurate.

[DanielJ1eH]

You can see where you are with the mix mode, i would have to generate another pca for your results. I don't understand your question about Jews.



It is difficult to tell exactly until we find the right genome that looks exactly Basal Eurasian and it's complicated to find 50-100ky stuff in good condition in the region it is supposed to be found. This is really the last thing we lack for Eurasia. Eventually with time we will find this population. Based on Iran_N or Natufian, which is the equivalent of 75% Basal and 25% WHG, very little SSA could fit, if any it doesn't look like something comparable to modern SSA. Maybe 5% out of a basal score, if someone is 25% Basal, that's 1,25%, probably some of the "noise" we see at low K.

It's also possible Basal is a mix of two things, one having no SSA whatsoever as some people don't score it at all even at low K. If you don't have alleles/snps peaking in African populations, you cannot invent them and it will show none or 0,x.


Btw why this rounding, there s no need to round these numbers, 0,6 is not 1%, like 60% is not 100%. I swear people scare the math out of me around here.

1) Then I guess my 1.50% is noise if we go by that logic.

2) 0.60/0.70/0.80 is certainly not noise. If the aleels are forced into 3 categories and 0.60 ends up in one category, by your logic it can't be noise. It actually exists. You said it before. The aleels are forced into 3 categories. Didn't you just say that all Europeans have Basal SSA since they have Basal Eurasian?

3) Everyone rounds. 0.60 or 0.75 is closer to 1% than it is to 0%.