David Reich's summary of the population history of Europe

[Peterski]

Ancient DNA and the new science of the human past (a lecture by David Reich):

https://videocast.nih.gov/summary.asp?Live=19940&bhcp=1

https://oir.nih.gov/wals/2016-2017/ancient-dna-new-science-human-past


Beginning in 2010, it became practical to sequence whole genomes extracted from DNA extracted from ancient human bones, and to analyze the data to understand changes in biology over time. Since then, the amount of ancient DNA data has increased at an extraordinary rate (...) Dr. Reich will begin his lecture by describing how present-day Europeans derive from a fusion of highly divergent ancestral populations as different from each other as are Europeans and East Asians. He will then summarize the history of modern humans in Europe over the approximately 45,000 years since they first arrived. (...)

[Poise n Pen]

According to hilarious jewish caricature this is how europe is populated:

1. First black men come to europe from africa, totally replacing neanderthals who had light skin.
2. Then hunter gatherers come from near east to settle.
3. Then neolithic farmers come from modern israel to settle.
4. Then some nonwhite huns from yamnaya settle.
5. Then everyone magically turns white in a few centuries due to genetic drift.

Sounds legit.

[Peterski]

4. Then some nonwhite huns from yamnaya settle.

LOL.

Yamnaya culture, Boldyrevo I, Kurgan I, Grave 1 - face reconstruction:

http://i008.radikal.ru/1201/ee/32a937e78cb6.jpg

Two other males from Yamnaya culture:

http://savepic.su/5898008.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2b/Yamna_cultdure.jpg/390px-Yamna_cultdure.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2b/Yamna_cultdure.jpg/390px-Yamna_cultdure.jpg

Balanovo culture (Eastern Corded Ware):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/70/Yamna_Srubnik.jpg/390px-Yamna_Srubnik.jpg

Eastern Hunter-Gatherers (Mesolithic Russia):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIE6Y7s1AOw

[Pahli]

LOL.

Yamnaya culture, Boldyrevo I, Kurgan I, Grave 1 - face reconstruction:

http://i008.radikal.ru/1201/ee/32a937e78cb6.jpg

He looks like a Chechen / Euro mix lmao.

[Poise n Pen]

LOL.

Yamnaya culture, Boldyrevo I, Kurgan I, Grave 1 - face reconstruction:

http://i008.radikal.ru/1201/ee/32a937e78cb6.jpg

Two other males from Yamnaya culture:

http://savepic.su/5898008.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2b/Yamna_cultdure.jpg/390px-Yamna_cultdure.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2b/Yamna_cultdure.jpg/390px-Yamna_cultdure.jpg

Balanovo culture (Eastern Corded Ware):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/70/Yamna_Srubnik.jpg/390px-Yamna_Srubnik.jpg

Eastern Hunter-Gatherers (Mesolithic Russia):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIE6Y7s1AOw

Everyone found at yamnaya has dark skin genes and none of those guys fit into central europe let alone ireland.

They also have about 1/2 ANE which is like 2% in northern european countries.

[Peterski]

Everyone found at yamnaya has dark skin genes

No, they were rather light-pigmented. But not as much as Sintashta-Andronovo-Srubnaya-CWC.

[Peterski]

Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Catacomb-Poltavka vs. Andronovo-Sintashta-Srubnaya in Gedrosia K12 calculator:

https://s15.postimg.org/jpm9wignv/Gedrozja_K12.png

https://s15.postimg.org/jpm9wignv/Gedrozja_K12.png

[Peterski]

They also have about 1/2 ANE which is like 2% in northern european countries.

They had 40% ANE, and modern Northern Europeans have 20% ANE.

======================

Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Poltavka/Catacomb samples:

Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:

M828815 / Yamnaya-RISE552
M655536 / Yamnaya-I0231
M343758 / Yamnaya-I0443
F999968 / Yamnaya-RISE548
F999942 / Afanasievo-RISE509
M828784 / Afanasievo-RISE511
M766878 / Poltavka-I0440
F999946 / Catacomb-RISE552

Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe samples:

Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:

M690970 / Sintashta-RISE386
M277797 / Sintashta-RISE395
M608028 / Andronovo-RISE505
F999947 / Andronovo-RISE500
F999961 / Andronovo-RISE503
M472767 / Srubnaya-I0232
M217196 / Srubnaya-I0430

======================

Ancient Eurasia K6 calculator:

Kit F999968 (Yamnaya-RISE548):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 40.15
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 39.87
3 Natufian 19.58
4 East_Asian 0.4

By comparison my own results are:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.79
2 Natufian 34.21
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.69
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1
5 East_Asian 0.31

[Peterski]

Ancient Eurasia K6 calculator:

Clovis-Anzick-1 Paleo-American (Gedmatch kit F999919):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 60.7
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 23.77
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 8.54
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 5.84
5 Sub_Saharan 1.16

Kennewick Man Paleo-American (Gedmatch kit F999970):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 58.83
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.52
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 11.66
4 Natufian 3.23
5 Sub_Saharan 3.08
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.68

[Poise n Pen]

Ok 40%, but if they are the originals as claimed how do you go from 40% to 20% while increasing your HG %? And where did they get all the light eye and skin genes which everyone has today?

It is not something possible from simple mixing. Anyone supposed to be the origin of modern whites that short of a time back must be more pure not less. And those genes are not selected on, we can detect that. Even if they were it's too short a time. There has to be some other group.

In spain there's also r1b samples with basically zero ANE and it declines steadily going west.

[Petalpusher]

Ok 40%, but if they are the originals as claimed how do you go from 40% to 20% while increasing your HG %? And where did they get all the light eye and skin genes which everyone has today?

It is not something possible from simple mixing. Anyone supposed to be the origin of modern whites that short of a time back must be more pure not less. And those genes are not selected on, we can detect that. Even if they were it's too short a time. There has to be some other group.

In spain there's also r1b samples with basically zero ANE and it declines steadily going west.

Yamnaya were EHG (WHG+ANE) + CHG like. You simply mix late neo cultures + Yamnaya to various degrees. Late neo were more WHG than pretty much anyone today. Bronze age seen from an admixture point of view is really a simple cline traversing Europe.


On pigmentation:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l1YmSXd7yQA/VhlDdgADsfI/AAAAAAAAAx0/081XEAvT0PQ/s1600/pigmentation%2BMathieson.jpg

[Peterski]

how do you go from 40% to 20% while increasing your HG %?

As Yamnaya expanded into Europe, they mixed with WHG-rich and ENF-rich populations.

This is why ANE dropped from 40% to 20%, while ENF increased and WHG stayed similar.

[Poise n Pen]

As Yamnaya expanded into Europe, they mixed with WHG-rich and ENF-rich populations.

This is why ANE dropped from 40% to 20%, while ENF increased and WHG stayed similar.

Ok, so say that these yamnaya are 100% r1b and 100% brown eyed and darker skinned than any pure white and move to ireland.

So how do you become 90% light eyed from that? The best you can hope for is to kill off the whole population of local males and take all the females, while bring none of your own. At best that could make you 25% light eyed since brown is dominant. And it could never make you 100% light skinned.

Basically there are two big light skin genes almost everyone in europe has and definitely 100% of north europeans have. These guys have one of them at 100% levels and the other at 0% levels. They also have 100% 'wrong' mtdna. The same kind of mtdna the udmurts have btw.

It's completely impossible to go from yamnaya to modern white populations and preserve that huge level of r1b in places like ireland and basque territory with simple mixing. It would have to be selective. But we know it's not selective because we can test that and the time is way too short.

But at the same time corded ware is around and they are much whiter. It is also twice as big of an area.

Archaeologically speaking yamnaya and corded ware are at the exact same time. You could easily find that corded ware came first, they are so close. So it's not unreasonable to think that a similar find to the one for yamnaya could be found to the west if they actually ever dug there (and tore up a shitload of cities lol) and that this similar group more to the west would actually turn out to be fully white already. Which completely blows yamnaya idea out of the water.

And that makes more sense anyway because why would r1b leapfrog over r1a like that? Just to confuse us? And how would they do it and then get so much larger numbers than r1a in a short time? It doesn't even make any sense. And even if they can do all that how did they avoid taking any r1a with them on the way?

So anyway, this theory can be true, but the timing is off by 10k years if it is.

[Peterski]

These guys have one of them at 100% levels and the other at 0% levels.

No, they had both - 100% of one gene and 50% of the other one.

================================


The best you can hope for is to kill off the whole population of local males and take all the females

And this is exactly what happened:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/09/30/078360

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/09/30/078360.full.pdf


(...) For later migrations from the Pontic steppe during the LNBA, however, we estimate a dramatic male bias, with ~5-14 migrating males for every migrating female. We find evidence of ongoing, primarily male, migration from the steppe to central Europe over a period of multiple generations, with a level of sex bias that excludes a pulse migration during a single generation. The contrasting patterns of sex-specific migration during these two migrations suggest a view of differing cultural histories in which the Neolithic transition was driven by mass migration of both males and females in roughly equal numbers, perhaps whole families, whereas the later Bronze Age migration and cultural shift were instead driven by male migration, potentially connected to new technology and conquest.

[Rethel]

62258
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62258&d=1475317229

[Poise n Pen]

No, they had both - 100% of one gene and 50% of the other one.

================================



And this is exactly what happened:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/09/30/078360

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/09/30/078360.full.pdf


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?190519-Amy-Goldberg-Torsten-G%FCnther-Noah-A-Rosenberg-and-Mattias-Jakobsson-on-steppe-migration

Well here is my writeup of that paper. Long story short even if it's correct adding those populations together don't add up to the modern populations, and using the X chromosome like that for anything but extremely recent mixing is probably a wholly invalid procedure. It's basically more backsolving crap...here is what we say happened and here's the (extremely unlikely) math it would take to make it happen. Please don't notices that even if this is true it still completely fails to produce a modern population.

It's the neolithics that only have one gene and lack the other completely, I said it wrong though. But having the yamnaya people having 50% just proves the obvious that they are the mixed population who came from the west and conquered some other exotic population.

Also it's hilarious that it's yet another paper on European ethnogenesis with the authors' list entirely filled by swedish jews from an extreme leftist university.

[Poise n Pen]

Let's put it like this. Bell Beaker is the modern Central European, they are genetically basically exactly the same as basically all NW europe today. But BB is completely impossible to explain in this context. You don't have the right (far western) mtdna and you don't have the hair, eye and skin color. Even if the paper is all true, how did all the r1a get pushed eastwards by yamnaya which themselves were eastwards. We know when BB shows up. So in a very short time Yamanaya keapfrogs to the west of corded ware, whitens up, then grows to vastly outnumber corded ware and drives them a huge distance eastwards.

Archaeology also seems to show BB comes from the extreme west, and BB NEVER makes it to the steppe, not even close. BB also overlaps Yamnaya culture in time for God's sake. So even if all the unlikely stuff above were plausible these facts seem very hard to reconcile. And there's no explanation at all for when whitening up occurred. There's no white population with light eyes in all this! Or for how BB is 100% lactose tolerant. And there's no V mtdna found at yamnaya which is found in every other r1b location, even in africa. So if this is the original r1b population how is this massive coincidence possible?

So like usually there are just some vague dots connected together but the real important link is completely missing.

[johen]

Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Catacomb-Poltavka vs. Andronovo-Sintashta-Srubnaya in Gedrosia K12 calculator:

https://s15.postimg.org/jpm9wignv/Gedrozja_K12.png

https://s15.postimg.org/jpm9wignv/Gedrozja_K12.png

There is no offence. Honestly, I want to ask a question: Is it ok to identify the ancient nomad people by genetics? Indo-european, indo-Aryan, scythian were all nomad people.
There was no concept to be homogeneous in nomad, which means they did not care about genetics.
As far as we know, the nomad had characteristics to wipe out sedentary male and take women.

David anthony put it this way:

When it comes to understanding the origin of European culture, there’s another reason for looking at the Yamnaya. The very foundation of Rome may be steeped in their traditions. According to studies of IndoEuropean mythology, young Yamnaya men would go off in warlike groups, raping and pillaging for a few years, then return to their village and settle down into respectability as adults. Those cults were mythologically associated with wolves and dogs, like youths forming wild hunting packs, and the youths are said to have worn dog or wolf skins during their initiation. Anthony has found a site in Russia where the Yamnaya killed wolves and dogs in midwinter. He says it’s easy to imagine groups
sacrificing and consuming the animals as a way to symbolically become wolves or dogs themselves. Bodies in Yamnaya graves on the western steppes frequently have pendants of dog canine teeth around their necks. Anthony says that all this offers solid archaeological evidence for the youthful “wolf packs” of Indo-European legends – and sees a link to the myth of the foundation of Rome. “You’ve got two boys, Romulus and Remus
and a wolf that more or less gives birth to them,” he says. “And the earliest legends of the foundation of Rome are connected with a large group of homeless young men who were given shelter by Romulus. But they then wanted wives, so they invited in a neighbouring tribe and stole all their women. You can see that
whole set of early legends as being connected possibly with the foundation of Rome by youthful war bands.

The tribes in Kazarstan, Mongol have still kept the tradition until now, getting women from the other tribes. of course not stealing.
If the ancient nomad people was mixed with any other women, losing their identity, it is fine to identify them by genetics. However, I think they did not lose their identity by keeping their tradition and their philosophy,even if their body became european or middle eastern people.

Same thing happened in Sultan bloodline of ottoman empire.
The last 35th sultan had only below 0.30% turk blood due to the fact that all queens were European. Was he regarded as European?
Thus, I think we need more focus upon their culture than genetics.

[Peterski]

And this is exactly what happened:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/09/30/078360

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/09/male-dominated-conquest-of-europe-by.html

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/09/30/078360.full.pdf

This is very easy to explain, if you know how early Indo-European societies worked. Indo-Europeans commonly practiced polygyny, which means that one man could have many wifes. The most powerful and influential men had the largest number of wives.

For example, chieftains could have 10 wifes each (or at least several).

However, the proportion of males to females in every population is always close to 50:50. So if only 1 man married 10 women, it means that 9 other men had to remain "singles". There were just not enough women in the population for them to marry.

And in my opinion, that was one of driving forces of Indo-European expansions.

Those low-status men, who could not find native Steppe wifes on the Steppe, had to:

1) Either kidnap wifes from somewhere else, and then bring them back to the Steppe;

OR:

2) Emigrate from the Steppe, invade another tribe, and capture their women as wifes.

In fact, genetic and archaeological data provides evidence, that both happened. The increase of CHG admixture among Steppe people, was due to kidnapping wifes from the Caucasus region, and then bringing them back to the Steppe. Later on, they stopped kidnapping & bringing wifes to the Steppe, and instead started emigrating from the Steppe in search of wifes to conquer. That was most likely due to improvements in technology (they acquired metals, horses, wheels and wagons - becoming more mobile). Before acquiring those technological advantages, they were only able to organize raids for women (quickly surprise-attacking a settlement of farmers, kidnapping women and food, then quickly running away back to the Steppe).

But after gaining an advantage in military power, they could conquer sedentary populations.

[Norse]

Ok 40%, but if they are the originals as claimed how do you go from 40% to 20% while increasing your HG %? And where did they get all the light eye and skin genes which everyone has today?

It is not something possible from simple mixing. Anyone supposed to be the origin of modern whites that short of a time back must be more pure not less. And those genes are not selected on, we can detect that. Even if they were it's too short a time. There has to be some other group.

In spain there's also r1b samples with basically zero ANE and it declines steadily going west.

Yamnaya are light skin and brown eyes. WHG have - supposedly - darker pigmentation and blue eyes. Thus the mixture of Yamnaya and WHG created the modern whites. Though I don't buy the darker pigmentation of WHG for a second, they are likely mixing up genes for hair with genes for skin.

[Norse]

Ok, so say that these yamnaya are 100% r1b and 100% brown eyed and darker skinned than any pure white and move to ireland.

So how do you become 90% light eyed from that? The best you can hope for is to kill off the whole population of local males and take all the females, while bring none of your own. At best that could make you 25% light eyed since brown is dominant. And it could never make you 100% light skinned.

Basically there are two big light skin genes almost everyone in europe has and definitely 100% of north europeans have. These guys have one of them at 100% levels and the other at 0% levels. They also have 100% 'wrong' mtdna. The same kind of mtdna the udmurts have btw.

It's completely impossible to go from yamnaya to modern white populations and preserve that huge level of r1b in places like ireland and basque territory with simple mixing. It would have to be selective. But we know it's not selective because we can test that and the time is way too short.

But at the same time corded ware is around and they are much whiter. It is also twice as big of an area.

Archaeologically speaking yamnaya and corded ware are at the exact same time. You could easily find that corded ware came first, they are so close. So it's not unreasonable to think that a similar find to the one for yamnaya could be found to the west if they actually ever dug there (and tore up a shitload of cities lol) and that this similar group more to the west would actually turn out to be fully white already. Which completely blows yamnaya idea out of the water.

And that makes more sense anyway because why would r1b leapfrog over r1a like that? Just to confuse us? And how would they do it and then get so much larger numbers than r1a in a short time? It doesn't even make any sense. And even if they can do all that how did they avoid taking any r1a with them on the way?

So anyway, this theory can be true, but the timing is off by 10k years if it is.

Modern day Scandinavians are closest genetically to Yamnaya, which again, does not make sense if Yamnaya were not light skin light eyes.

[Rethel]

62345

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62345&d=1475770322

[Rethel]

No Blue Eyes = Not European

:picard2:


Last Aryan on Apricity

http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/2smiech.gif

Are you at least R1? :rolleyes:

[Grab the Gauge]

LOL.

Yamnaya culture, Boldyrevo I, Kurgan I, Grave 1 - face reconstruction:

http://i008.radikal.ru/1201/ee/32a937e78cb6.jpg

Two other males from Yamnaya culture:

http://savepic.su/5898008.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2b/Yamna_cultdure.jpg/390px-Yamna_cultdure.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2b/Yamna_cultdure.jpg/390px-Yamna_cultdure.jpg

Balanovo culture (Eastern Corded Ware):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/70/Yamna_Srubnik.jpg/390px-Yamna_Srubnik.jpg

Eastern Hunter-Gatherers (Mesolithic Russia):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIE6Y7s1AOw


LOL, these reconstructions are complete bullshit. Yamnaya looked nothing like that. Yamnaya and PIE were East Asian Neo-Mongoloids. This retarded R1 shit needs to stop now.while you can still save face.

[Rethel]

Grab the Gauge,
according to you, everyone was either mongol either negro.

So, who was white?

[Pahli]

Grab the Gauge,
according to you, everyone was either mongol either negro.

So, who was white?

Iran_Neo / CHG banged EHG and created Yamnaya :laugh:

[Norse]

:picard2:



http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/2smiech.gif

Are you at least R1? :rolleyes:

I think there is a good chance of that. I am both Germanic and Norwegian in family lineage. Since Norwegians are closest to Yamnaya today, then yes I consider myself Aryan, son of an Aryan, from a long line of Aryans, with the spirit of Arya.

[Poise n Pen]

Yamnaya are light skin and brown eyes. WHG have - supposedly - darker pigmentation and blue eyes. Thus the mixture of Yamnaya and WHG created the modern whites. Though I don't buy the darker pigmentation of WHG for a second, they are likely mixing up genes for hair with genes for skin.

The blue stuff in those charts is all HG, except on some where this "EHG" which is a made up population, is put into a "yamnaya component".

What the latest paper and basically every paper says, is that THE YAMNAYA THEMSELVES are the source of most the HG material in modern white people.

The problem is that they are both darker pigmented and even bigger thing is they don't have any light eyes or hair. Basically they are about half like modern whites but they completely lack the attributes that are the most obvious in northern europe today.

So basically it doesn't matter WHAT these papers say the origin is. Because the PAPERS THEMSELVES claim there must be this other magic population floating around invisible to make this happen. But this is the whole thing we are trying to explain in the first place, you can't rely on your conclusion as a premise in your own argument :lol: In essence this turns all this into masturbation. All of it can be discarded because they take two populations that don't have the right haplogroups or eye or hair or skin color or lactose tolerance and then claim that they are the origin of modern whites in essence "just because".



It's obvious at this point the modern white population exists already, it's just not here. It's in france or iberia or even british isles already by this point. We already have all the right mtdna in the west, and lactose persistance, just no y-dna.

If that's not the case then it means yamnaya leapfrogged over corded ware somehow, turned white, and then grew in numbers so much they pushed all the r1a hundreds of miles east. And at the same time corded ware turned white too. Without any exchange of y-dna between the r1a and r1b people except in a few small places.

[Rethel]

I think there is a good chance of that. I am both Germanic and Norwegian in family lineage. Since Norwegians are closest to Yamnaya today, then yes I consider myself Aryan, son of an Aryan, from a long line of Aryans, with the spirit of Arya.

How long?

[Rethel]

It's obvious at this point the modern white population exists already, it's just not here. It's in france or iberia or even british isles already by this point. We already have all the right mtdna in the west, and lactose persistance, just no y-dna.

:picard1:

In spain there's also r1b samples with basically zero ANE and it declines steadily going west.

poise n pen, litvin corrected about ane already but i wanted to say few things. by the way none of spanish r1b samples is literally zero ane. low extra ane, yes but haplo groups are misleading, it doesnt mean early carriers were exactly like those in spain. actually r1b is autosomally one of most diverse today. there can be various explanations to why they had different admixture and with loss of some genetic variations so on. all whg samples has tiny amount of ane. all whg has little ehg which is like 75 % ane. scandinavian hunter gatherers were almost half whg half ehg -- and these two already related to each other. and thats only one of ways to model.

actually people would be surprised how different for a long time ancient inhabitants of scandinavia, baltic area and mainly any where else in europe were. and ancient ireland unlike you said was very very different than today, well baltic realively less of course. (or some one else said here, i read so many stuff on this thread and couldnt quote all of them). unfortunately most people really confuse whats more native to europe meaning older and how very recent drifts and (over)mixing in short time changed things a lot on surface which is one main reason for lots of confusion on european ethnogenesis.


Let's put it like this. Bell Beaker is the modern Central European, they are genetically basically exactly the same as basically all NW europe today.

and this isnt true :) they are as different than modern as corded ware is very differnet from modern descendants. haplo groups wise too. and trust me we didnt inherit fair skin from neanderthals -- meaning not source of origin. and light eye and fair hair mutation didnt originate in where/what you think. where you got these ideas?


Iran_Neo / CHG banged EHG and created Yamnaya :laugh:
man, iran neo and chg were quite different than each other to be lumped and cant be used interchangebly.)) thats why they shouldnt have been lumped under one component in calculators. and hey no one banged ehg. ehg is a father :cool: chg it self was over 20 % ehg and some extra whg. iran neo didnt have any despite being a more recent (neolithic) genome than paleolithic-mesolithic chg, suggesting they come from differentiated lines. and more than 50 % of iran neo's admixture is still a mystery. we need older ancestral sample to exactly know if their this half and some other angient farmer or hg group come from same population. there are some alternative formulations on i neo but nothing certain. and theres also this, south asians dont actually have those huge amounts of ane. similarly actual whg levels in modern folks are not really much, its the low k calculators treating some thing very cocktail as attached to it. better to say in general, no one has more than 30-40 % of some thing really same, there are so many variations. its like every bodys so close to each other but also like they couldnt be more distant. :D


Modern day Scandinavians are closest genetically to Yamnaya

no actually lithuanians, estonians and of course russians (and then poles, ukrainians) have most steppe admixture which comes from yamnaya. while for norwegians its sure high but less than russians overall. im talking about amount of direct admixture of course. whos closest can be interpreted differently too when it comes to how oracles guess yamnaya as modern pops. (well all moderns are very different of course regardless the region of ancient yamnaya sample but i mean relatively). and since they had some extra east eurasian too, an oracle will guess them also as tatar before norwegian for instance because of east eurasian affinity though norwegians can have more direct admixture from them than tatars have. well yeah its complicated.

[Poise n Pen]

poise n pen, litvin corrected about ane already but i wanted to say few things. by the way none of spanish r1b samples is literally zero ane.

Yes they are. Even many people today are literally zero in ANE. Anyone who thinks ANE is part of originally IE is fucking retarded. It's some kind of south asian darkie bullshit, nothing to do with original whites.

https://evolutionistx.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/haak_k16-20.png

The futher west you go the more "yamnaya" means EHG. So that "Yamnaya" becomes all "eastern hunter gatherer" which is itself kind of a bullshit component. It's like naming a component "Poise n Pen ancestry" then everyone thinks just because I said that, I am the father of all europe.

So look at the spanish on there. The YAMNAYA is basically zero, let alone the EHG. If you separate out the components then the ANE would be zero. I've seen plenty of samples that are literally zero, and there are some in that picture as well. That should not really happen if this model of populating europe were true.

It is the same nonsense as with out of africa. Just completely ignore all the other evidence and claim it is only the one location that matters, and the people who came before those people all died out. What a joke.




low extra ane, yes but haplo groups are misleading, it doesnt mean early carriers were exactly like those in spain. actually r1b is autosomally one of most diverse today.

But you can't have it both ways. They don't call it a languages genetics for nothing. If R1a and R1b got these language elements through a common origin, everyone should have shared the same DNA and language at that time. But it is obviously not the case because r1b is already extremely widespread and because not everyone who's r1b spoke IE language. In fact the group with highest r1b does not speak IE language even today.




there can be various explanations to why they had different admixture and with loss of some genetic variations so on.

Exactly, handwaving away the only part that actually matters as if it is of no consequence.

:picard2:



all whg samples has tiny amount of ane. all whg has little ehg which is like 75 % ane. scandinavian hunter gatherers were almost half whg half ehg -- and these two already related to each other. and thats only one of ways to model.



The bolded part is important. It's pure bullshit. When you separate out EHG and ANE the proportions do not remain the same. Meaning that yamnaya component is pure bullshit.




actually people would be surprised how different for a long time ancient inhabitants of scandinavia, baltic area and mainly any where else in europe were. and ancient ireland unlike you said was very very different than today, well baltic realively less of course. (or some one else said here, i read so many stuff on this thread and couldnt quote all of them). unfortunately most people really confuse whats more native to europe meaning older and how very recent drifts and (over)mixing in short time changed things a lot on surface which is one main reason for lots of confusion on european ethnogenesis.



What we care about is the modern population and how that came about. We will either find the modern population already existing somewhere even if it's a small minority, or we will find the 'magic' population that is white but doesn't have the right haplogroups, which the populations we know about already mixed with. Until then it is all fantasies.




and this isnt true :) they are as different than modern as corded ware is very differnet from modern descendants. haplo groups wise too.


No, you are wrong. As soon as bell beaker shows up it already has the modern r1b forms and their direct ancestors. We also see lactose tolerance, proper skin genes, and some light eye and hair genes. All of these things are completely lacking in yamnaya.





and trust me we didnt inherit fair skin from neanderthals -- meaning not source of origin. and light eye and fair hair mutation didnt originate in where/what you think. where you got these ideas?

You can't know that. Some neanderthals had light skin, red hair and light eye genes. And much earlier than they are found in any other population. There is no reason to think that they come from somewhere else. Logically speaking it is nonsense to think they evolved twice, they either come from neanderthals or from common ancestry with some other group. But I didn't say that anyway. It doesn't matter what their ultimate origin is back a million years ago, it matters how it got into modern populations.

[Norse]

You can't know that. Some neanderthals had light skin, red hair and light eye genes. And much earlier than they are found in any other population. There is no reason to think that they come from somewhere else. Logically speaking it is nonsense to think they evolved twice, they either come from neanderthals or from common ancestry with some other group. But I didn't say that anyway. It doesn't matter what their ultimate origin is back a million years ago, it matters how it got into modern populations.

Exactly.

[Peterski]

Forget about ANE - that population ceased to exist (in its "pure" form) before the end of Paleolithic period.

In Mesolithic times we have EHG - and they, not ANE, should be used in modeling mixtures of populations.

Lazaridis 2016 recognized this; he distinguished four "pure races" and modeled the rest as mix of those 4:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6NKNswppUZo/V2Sh291ld_I/AAAAAAAAFBI/8JHrrRELo-ApmZLD-abIC1ihs9vQkwnOQCKgB/s1600/ha.png

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PTL6wXoyuKw/V271sJNQ7cI/AAAAAAAADXI/v0yWQWK50ZgU19lYYWqM3Ec9Bdp--63MgCLcB/s1600/ADMIXTURE.png

https://s16.postimg.org/5wfnr7tph/EHG_WHG_Iran_Levant.png

https://s16.postimg.org/5wfnr7tph/EHG_WHG_Iran_Levant.png

[Peterski]

Light skin in Western Eurasians is caused mainly by two mutations - one in SLC45A2 and one in SLC24A5.

Below I quote info from Extended Data Table 5. of "Genetic History of Ice Age Europe" (2016) publication:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301742169_The_genetic_history_of_Ice_Age_Europe

Extended Data Table 5. (it shows, that only Karelian EHG had the 1st lightening mutation - SLC45A2 one):

https://s32.postimg.org/t2tko9xx1/Light_skin.png

A mixing of Kotias CHG (SLC24A5) with Karelia EHG (SLC45A2) could produce a light-skinned population:

https://s32.postimg.org/t2tko9xx1/Light_skin.png

[Peterski]

Proto-Indo-Europeans were exactly that - a mixture of EHG with CHG (and mixing of those two groups took place in the Steppe of Russia) - so we can assume that Proto-Indo-Europeans were also the Proto-White population. Natural (as well as social and sexual) selection promoted people with light skin, who were breeding faster than those with darker skin - which is why frequencies of both alleles increased over time (Karelian EHG had 67% frequency of SLC45A2 according to Lazaridis, while modern Europeans have around 90%).

======================

Check also this data ("Pre-Historic West Eurasian Phenotypes" spreadsheet):

A allele in rs1426654 (SLC24A5) = whiter skin and G allele in rs16891982 (SLC45A2) = whiter skin:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xe9sgt0PSt6cUQ3cYp14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0HB0/edit#gid=1800275085

Frequency of light skin mutations in Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherer samples:

As you can see Russian hunters had lighter skin than all others; Swedish hunters came 2nd:

Between 38,000 years ago and 15,000 years ago Western Europeans were swarthy as coal:

https://s32.postimg.org/ewm8lloyt/Russia.png

[Peterski]

Frequencies of skin-lightening derived alleles A in rs1426654 and G in rs16891982:

Western Hunters= 12,5% and 0% (combined 13) ---> darkest-skinned of them all
Caucasus Hunters = 100% and 0% (combined 100)
Sweden Hunters = 50% and 75% (combined 125)
Anatolia Farmers = 100% and 34,8% (combined 135)
Russian Hunters = 100% and 75% (combined 175) ---> lightes-skinned of them all

Western European hunters had darkest skin, while Russian hunters had lightest skin.

[Peterski]

Yamnaya had combined 142 (compared to combined 175 for Russian hunters):

But Corded Ware and Sintashta had 179 - so already more than EHG hunters):

In the Iron Age it increased even more to 193 in the Steppe and 186 in Britain:

https://s16.postimg.org/mwkq16thh/Light_Skin.png

https://s16.postimg.org/mwkq16thh/Light_Skin.png

[Peterski]

As for lactase persistence, it was very rare everywhere during Neolithic times.

It started to increase in frequency during the Early Bronze Age.

Some people of Battle Axe culture (Northern_LNBA), Kyjatice culture (Hungary_BA), Unetice culture (Central_LNBA), Bell Beaker culture and Srubnaya culture were lactose tolerant:

Green field ("true positives") are ancient samples who were lactose tolerant:

"Lactase persistence and ancient DNA":

http://mathii.github.io/review/2015/06/14/lactase-persistence-and-ancient-dna

http://mathii.github.io/assets/images/LCT_imputation_results%20v8.png

Check also: http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10775

[Poise n Pen]

The problem is we can't really ignore the ANE. If the EHG comes from yamnaya then it should be impossible to not get the ANE as well in a very similar proportion. Instead we get a big dropoff for ANE that basically disappears in the west.

[Peterski]

As for those lactose tolerant ancient guys listed above:

I0430 was a man with Y-DNA R1a
RISE98 was a man with Y-DNA R1b
I1504 was a man with Y-DNA J2a1
I0164 was a woman with mtDNA U5b2a1b
I0112 was a woman with mtDNA H13a1a2c

[Peterski]

The problem is we can't really ignore the ANE.

ANE were a Paleolithic population, which was just as dark-skinned as everyone else at that time.

In times when ANE (= Mal'ta boy) lived, everyone was still dark-skinned everywhere in the world.

It is estimated that SLC24A5 mutattion emerged in DNA of one person at some point between 28,000 and 22,000 years ago and it started to increase in frequency (selective sweep) between 19,000 and 11,000 years ago.

This mutation is not of Neanderthal origin (unless some Neanderthal survived until 28,000 years ago).

[Peterski]

This is what Western European skin color was like 8000 years ago (and their eyes could be brown):

http://www.unz.com/pfrost/a-little-less-brown-and-not-necessarily/

Afontova-Gora-2 from Siberia had one of two light skin mutations already 17,000 years ago.

SLC24A5 is more widespread among Caucasoids, while SLC45A2 is more European-specific.

Here are two papers about SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, estimating age of these mutations:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3525146/

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003912

[Peterski]

Instead we get a big dropoff for ANE that basically disappears in the west.

No, ANE is present in all of Europeans except for Sardinians.

And North-Western Europeans have a lot of it. Including Ireland, Britain and Scandinavia.

Because Steppe males raped all of Europe as far as Ireland.

Hence there is so much of R1 haplogroup there today.

[Poise n Pen]

As for lactase persistence, it was very rare everywhere during Neolithic times.

It started to increase in frequency during the Early Bronze Age.

Some people of Battle Axe culture (Northern_LNBA), Kyjatice culture (Hungary_BA), Unetice culture (Central_LNBA), Bell Beaker culture and Srubnaya culture were lactose tolerant:

Green field ("true positives") are ancient samples who were lactose tolerant:

"Lactase persistence and ancient DNA":

http://mathii.github.io/review/2015/06/14/lactase-persistence-and-ancient-dna

http://mathii.github.io/assets/images/LCT_imputation_results%20v8.png

Check also: http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10775

Of course bell beaker is lactose tolerant. But the supposed cultures that are ancestral to it according to reich are not.

Yet there are a few 8k and 10k year old lactose tolerant people found in south france and parts of iberia.

And yamnaya spans a huge range...looking at stuff that is around when BB is around is pointless. By then yamnaya does not matter, if it ever did.

[Peterski]

Are you familiar with such concepts as "natural / social selection", "beneficial mutation", "selective sweep", etc.?


Yet there are a few 8k and 10k year old lactose tolerant people found in south france and parts of iberia.

Nope, not a single of western hunter-gatherers was lactose tolerant. This mutation probably emerged in Neolithic farmers, but it started to be selected for only after it was absorbed from farmers by cow-herding and milk-drinking Steppe people who invaded farmers.

As for light skin, there is also evidence that it was being selected for, so it had to be beneficial.

Maybe one of reasons is that dark skin is thicker and consumes more energy than light skin:

http://phys.org/news/2016-06-paper-current-gain-loss-heavy.html

If you have light skin your body can use this energy e.g. for development of other organs.

[Poise n Pen]

Are you familiar with such concepts as "natural / social selection", "beneficial mutation", "selective sweep", etc.?



Nope, not a single of western hunter-gatherers was lactose tolerant. This mutation probably emerged in Neolithic farmers, but it started to be selected for only after it was absorbed from farmers by cow-herding and milk-drinking Steppe people who invaded farmers.

As for light skin, there is also evidence that it was being selected for, so it had to be beneficial.

Maybe one of reasons is that dark skin is thicker and consumes more energy than light skin:

http://phys.org/news/2016-06-paper-current-gain-loss-heavy.html

If you have light skin your body can use this energy e.g. for development of other organs.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/01/caught-in-act-lactose-intolerant-and.html

Neolithic iberian lactose tolerance.

Northern europe has the highest energy consuming people in the world so I doubt that is a factor. In fact many of the genes we took from neanderthal were ones that thicken the skin and hair and make them more durable. That is why nonwhite caucasoids say from middle east age much worse than northern euros.

[Peterski]

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/01/caught-in-act-lactose-intolerant-and.html

That guy is a Basque nationalist who can't accept that his ancestors were raped by Steppe invaders.


In fact many of the genes we took from neanderthal were ones that thicken the skin and hair and make them more durable. That is why nonwhite caucasoids say from middle east age much worse than northern euros.

All Non-Africans have Neanderthal admixture, and Europeans are not a group with the highest percent of it. As for mutations inherited from Neanderthals - among other things, autism was inherited from Neanderthals. Also increased keratine production, structural changes of nails, skin and hair (probably straight hair comes from Neanderthals, because all Africans have curly or pepper-corn hair).

Leśniowski-Crohn disease was inherited from Neanderthals:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crohn%27s_disease

Dyslexia and various speech disorders probably also come from Neanderthals (because they had different genes for language, so they had difficulty to adapt to human language):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o589CAu73UM

[Rethel]

As for those lactose tolerant ancient guys

IE milky superiority :laugh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_b4T8DJfZo

[Rethel]

In times when ANE (= Mal'ta boy) lived, everyone was still dark-skinned everywhere in the world.

ANE is a little bit artificial.
Malta guy was a mix race child.
He was something like CrazyDaizy... :laugh:

[Rethel]

can assume that Proto-Indo-Europeans were also the Proto-White population.

Yes, but it was known before genetic era from historical records. You made
very long journey to find obvious thing...It amazed me every time I see it,
maybe even more, than those who are so indoctrinate, that never can see it.

[Antimage]

Modern day Scandinavians are closest genetically to Yamnaya

Not true.

[Peterski]

Neanderthal voice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o589CAu73UM#t=1m54s

[Rethel]

That guy is a Basque nationalist who can't accept that his ancestors were raped by Steppe invaders.

No. Rather probably he is a steppe invader, and he can't accept it.

[Peterski]

Northern europe has the highest energy consuming people in the world

Today, thanks to modern technology. But in the past that was not the case.

[Petalpusher]

Modern day Scandinavians are closest genetically to Yamnaya, which again, does not make sense if Yamnaya were not light skin light eyes.

They are not particularly close to Yamnaya, average Norwegians/Swedes are all somewhere between Nordic LN and Steppe MLBA, just as expected. You can even see the progression from the EMBA (early/middle bronze Age) it goes in the direction of Nordic_LN cultures as time passes (highly HG but low ANE, a bit though cause of local Motala like admix), since well they are mixing together. All the samples move chronologically west with MLBA, you also find eventually Bell Beaker around that cline. It works with the other MN/LN cultures around Europe unless you go really south, like under genetically Tuscany, it doesn't work anymore but probably for 90% of the European population it works perfectly without adding any other influence (possible it exists, but it still works without it). Im not sure what really people have problems with.

Even pigmentation evolution kinda make sense considering the time frame, the WHG have blue eyes, others developped light skin instead, but have brown eyes etc..then selection goes to work, it has happened all the time. It's kind of anecdotic anyway. If i find an Irish with brown eyes he s not closer to MENA than a Sicilian with blue eyes that's for sure, that's just bound to happen statistically, the occurence is just of course very different, like x10 x20.

[Poise n Pen]

That guy is a Basque nationalist who can't accept that his ancestors were raped by Steppe invaders.



All Non-Africans have Neanderthal admixture, and Europeans are not a group with the highest percent of it. As for mutations inherited from Neanderthals - among other things, autism was inherited from Neanderthals. Also increased keratine production, structural changes of nails, skin and hair (probably straight hair comes from Neanderthals, because all Africans have curly or pepper-corn hair).

Leśniowski-Crohn disease was inherited from Neanderthals:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crohn%27s_disease

Dyslexia and various speech disorders probably also come from Neanderthals (because they had different genes for language, so they had difficulty to adapt to human language):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o589CAu73UM

The guy himself is a fucking retard, like all these bloggers who click refresh on nature.com 10 times a day are. It is only the data I care about, it's not like he does the testing. In fact the archaeologists don't do it at all.

East asians have no neanderthal ancestry at all, they have some common ancestry to neanderthals which is much different thing. Europeans are the only ones with a significant, recent, DIRECT ancestry. Ancestry means descend from, not have common genes.

[Poise n Pen]

Today, thanks to modern technology. But in the past that was not the case.

Of course it was the case, ancient europeans are way more robust and heavily built than modern people. The whole point of that is to be able to survive in the harsh cold and wind of northern europe.

[Rethel]

The whole point of that is to be able to survive in the harsh cold and wind of northern europe.

It is a bullshit methodology of ignorants created by ignorant atheists which needed some evolutionary explanation for races.

But real live shows that it is a bullshit, because in most harsh climate live people with darker skin...

But if someone want to be deliberetry ignorant, I can;t make anything to change it :)

[Poise n Pen]

It is a bullshit mathodology of ignorants created by ignorant atheists which needed some evolutionary explanation for races.

But real live shows that it is a bullshit, because in most harsh climate live people with darker skin...

But if someone want to be deliberetry ignorant, I can;t make anything to change it :)

What planet do you live on? Africa and south asia and other dark places are the easiest places to survive with a shitload of food and no cold weather. Average work week for a HG is about 8 hours a week foraging :lol:

That is why they all have pea brains and never advanced beyond the stone age until europeans came.

[Petalpusher]

What planet do you live on? Africa and south asia and other dark places are the easiest places to survive with a shitload of food and no cold weather. Average work week for a HG is about 8 hours a week foraging :lol:


There s this idea that "3rd world" is harsh to live in but most of these places you can do star gazing at night and there s plenty of ressources around. In Europe during holocene you were just dying every night if not prepared. It's a totally different type of evolutionnary pressure in cold climates, but even in central-south europe in winter you can die of cold alone. I mean nobody can survive some place like Switzerland or even N.Italy in January if you aren't able to constantly hunt, make decent clothes and find some refuge.

[Poise n Pen]

There s this idea that "3rd world" is harsh to live in but most of these places you can do star gazing at night and there s plenty of ressources around. In Europe during holocene you were just dying every night if not prepared. It's a totally different type of evolutionnary pressure in cold climates, but even in central-south europe in winter you can die of cold alone. I mean nobody can survive some place like Switzerland or even N.Italy in January if you aren't able to constantly hunt, make decent clothes and find some refuge.

Not only that but there is just so much food available. You don't need to hunt at all, and the hunting itself is ten times easier with giant herds of every size and shape of animal.

Scarcity is just never a problem, the only problems are disease and predators.

Also, blacks do have thicker skin but their skin is actually much less durable than europeans' skin and scars extremely easily.

[Norse]

On the other hand Africa have Ebola, Malaria, West Nile Virus, Sleeping Disease and many other extremely nasty diseases in Africa which are just about impossible to guard against. I do wonder how a group of Ice Age Europeans would have adapted to Africa.

[Norse]

Poise N Pen,

What is your general thesis of European and Northern European origins?

[Rethel]

I do wonder how a group of Ice Age Europeans would have adapted to Africa.

You do not have to imagine this, because they allready adapted very easy couple of times:


http://b2.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p351626/Figure3a.jpg

http://www.crystalinks.com/Thuthmosis3Map.gif

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/spartacus/images/f/f5/Map_roman_africa.gif/revision/latest?cb=20120806023030

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Africa1940.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/South_Africa_2011_Afrikaans_speakers_proportion_ma p.svg/2000px-South_Africa_2011_Afrikaans_speakers_proportion_ma p.svg.png

[Petalpusher]

On the other hand Africa have Ebola, Malaria, West Nile Virus, Sleeping Disease and many other extremely nasty diseases in Africa which are just about impossible to guard against. I do wonder how a group of Ice Age Europeans would have adapted to Africa.

Unhealthy environement and poor hygiene kill more than virus, sometimes it's even their cause to begin with. We would have very nasty things re-emerging in Europe without people capable of maintaining civilization. Everything is pretty much only consequences of low average IQ, leading to perpetual non virtuous circles, diseases, constant state of poverty, war, etc... James Watson made this simple observation, he then had to sell his Nobel on ebay.

[Norse]

Unhealthy environement and poor hygiene kill more than virus, sometimes it's even their cause to begin with. We would have very nasty things re-emerging in Europe without people capable of maintaining civilization. Everything is pretty much only consequences of low average IQ, leading to perpetual non virtuous circles, diseases, constant state of poverty, war, etc... James Watson made this simple observation, he then had to sell his Nobel on ebay.

The black plague is now believed to have been Ebola or some other sort of bleeding virus, due to it's rapid spread and almost identical quarantine period.

It came from Byzans and from Africa and Egypt likely before that. It spread through filthy European cities.

[Poise n Pen]

They know what disease it was, they have genetically sequenced it. Ebola spreads too fast, it burns itself out. Black plague spread through rats and other animals so it could go the distance.

[Poise n Pen]

Poise N Pen,

What is your general thesis of European and Northern European origins?

Eastern europe didn't start anything, except maybe greeks. All the migration we know about is migration eastwards. All that corded ware went east and the survivors became polish, pushed there by the bell beaker peoples, who were already pretty much modern whites.

Yamnaya never really whitens up. It remains a halfbreed population. So it is hard for me to think that this is true for that reason alone. In reality the yamnaya people move east, they are literally the udmurt people. They have all the same mtdnas as them. Much simpler explanation for yamnaya is that some r1b came and conquered some people at some point and they are the resulting population. In all of europe today r1b is in the west not the east, so how the hell would they switch up like that? It is like everyone from spain to germany switched places which is just ridiculous.

We know more or less that bell beaker comes from spain. That's just reality. We also know that the french had all the modern mtdna of europe long before yamnaya, up to 8k years ago.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0125521

We just don't have y-dna from them.

We also have r1b in neolithic italy 14k years ago.

Until 6k years ago north africa was grasslands. R1b people were basically cowboys. It could easily be that r1b was the original 'mediterranean' clade, and when the grass starts to dry up they settle in iberia as bell beaker people and spread east.

It can also be that they were in iberia or france a long time before that but we just haven't found them yet. It can also be a small already modern population someplace in northern europe by this time. All it takes is one good expansion of that group and the rest is history.

And bronze age archaeology supports that completely. In the bronze age suddenly upper paleolithic type people seem to 'return' to europe. Of course they were there all along, somewhere, but what really happened was they discovered new technology that made them able to reconquer europe and become the main inhabitants again.

Or if you break it down to the core elements, basically north europeans are hunter gatherers with some neolithic inputs and tiny amounts of other stuff. They are not some retarded steppe mongols any way that you slice it.

Yamnaya crap basically means some HG CAME FROM EUROPE....learned to ride horses, mixed with negritos, then came BACK to europe just before the roman empire started. It's just fucking retarded really.

The only reason more people don't see that is because they don't know enough history, archaeology or even basic geography to realize how dumb it is. If you look at only genetics you can basically make up any story you want. You can claim something changed from selection, or that there is male dominance and so on and take any population and say it spawned any remotely related population very easily.

[Rolnik szuka zony]

WHG were blacks prior to mesolithic:)

[Poise n Pen]

WHG were blacks prior to mesolithic:)

No they weren't. First off we only have mesolithic WHG sequenced, not any earlier. And no one was black skinned until very recently.

[Peterski]

First off we only have mesolithic WHG sequenced, not any earlier.

We have Paleolithic as well, you missed the most recent Fu et al. 2016 paper:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v534/n7606/full/nature17993.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301742169_The_genetic_history_of_Ice_Age_Europe

[Norse]

Eastern europe didn't start anything, except maybe greeks. All the migration we know about is migration eastwards. All that corded ware went east and the survivors became polish, pushed there by the bell beaker peoples, who were already pretty much modern whites.

Yamnaya never really whitens up. It remains a halfbreed population. So it is hard for me to think that this is true for that reason alone. In reality the yamnaya people move east, they are literally the udmurt people. They have all the same mtdnas as them. Much simpler explanation for yamnaya is that some r1b came and conquered some people at some point and they are the resulting population. In all of europe today r1b is in the west not the east, so how the hell would they switch up like that? It is like everyone from spain to germany switched places which is just ridiculous.

We know more or less that bell beaker comes from spain. That's just reality. We also know that the french had all the modern mtdna of europe long before yamnaya, up to 8k years ago.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0125521

We just don't have y-dna from them.

We also have r1b in neolithic italy 14k years ago.

Until 6k years ago north africa was grasslands. R1b people were basically cowboys. It could easily be that r1b was the original 'mediterranean' clade, and when the grass starts to dry up they settle in iberia as bell beaker people and spread east.

It can also be that they were in iberia or france a long time before that but we just haven't found them yet. It can also be a small already modern population someplace in northern europe by this time. All it takes is one good expansion of that group and the rest is history.

And bronze age archaeology supports that completely. In the bronze age suddenly upper paleolithic type people seem to 'return' to europe. Of course they were there all along, somewhere, but what really happened was they discovered new technology that made them able to reconquer europe and become the main inhabitants again.

Or if you break it down to the core elements, basically north europeans are hunter gatherers with some neolithic inputs and tiny amounts of other stuff. They are not some retarded steppe mongols any way that you slice it.

Yamnaya crap basically means some HG CAME FROM EUROPE....learned to ride horses, mixed with negritos, then came BACK to europe just before the roman empire started. It's just fucking retarded really.

The only reason more people don't see that is because they don't know enough history, archaeology or even basic geography to realize how dumb it is. If you look at only genetics you can basically make up any story you want. You can claim something changed from selection, or that there is male dominance and so on and take any population and say it spawned any remotely related population very easily.

I agree, this is a much more probably version, which also means the Aryans were indeed Nordic.

[Poise n Pen]

We have Paleolithic as well, you missed the most recent Fu et al. 2016 paper:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v534/n7606/full/nature17993.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301742169_The_genetic_history_of_Ice_Age_Europe

We don't have pigment genes which is what we're talking about.

No one sequenced in europe has the darkening genes in blacks and some other groups and it's very doubtful they all existed yet at the time.

[Peterski]

We don't have pigment genes which is what we're talking about.

We do. Paleolithic Europeans did not have skin-lightening mutations in genes SLC24A5, SLC45A2, KITLG and TYRP1. These mutations are common in modern Europeans and responsible for our light skin.

These mutations weren't present in Paleolithic inhabitants of Europe.

[Poise n Pen]

We do. Paleolithic Europeans did not have skin-lightening mutations in genes SLC24A5, SLC45A2, KITLG and TYRP1. These mutations are common in modern Europeans and responsible for our light skin.

These mutations weren't present in Paleolithic inhabitants of Europe.

First off it doesn't matter if they have european specific pigment lightening genes or not. Lacking those won't make them black. There's dozens of pigment genes in blacks that no one else has. Unless they can show those genes they were not black and anyone thinking they were is retarded. There's also the possibility they have other mutations of the same area, like the neanderthal lightening and red hair genes.

But there is no mention of pigment in your link for all those bones, or anywhere else. The only one I know was scanned and has results actually released is kostenki 14. For the ones in that paper I don't think that is true at all, and if it is it's never been released.

[Poise n Pen]

All right I read the whole thing now since one is not behind a paywall for once. This is interesting. That fucking faggot eurogay neglected to mention the 14k year old r1b in italy AND not only that but blue eyes in both italy and caucasus 14k years ago.

"Additional evidence
of an early link between West and East comes from the HERC2 locus,
where a derived allele that is the primary driver of light eye colour
in Europeans appears nearly simultaneously in specimens from Italy
and the Caucasus ~14,000–13,000 years ago"

What an ass.

So we have 14k year old r1b in italy with light eyes and yet our r1b comes from the step from brown eyed people, anyway. What a joke.

[Poise n Pen]

I read it all, still no mention of skin pigment. They did not do a whole sequence of any of those bones, which is sort of wasteful.

[Peterski]

Lacking those won't make them black.

Not black but Indian-like or Arab-like. Probably dark brown skin.


I read it all, still no mention of skin pigment.

Check Extended Data Figures & Tables and Supplementary Info:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v534/n7606/full/nature17993.html#extended-data

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v534/n7606/full/nature17993.html#supplementary-information

And Genetiker also posted info about their pigmentation SNPs:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/05/05/phenotype-snps-from-ice-age-europe/comment-page-1/

[Poise n Pen]

Not black but Indian-like or Arab-like. Probably dark brown skin.



Check Extended Data Figures & Tables and Supplementary Info:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v534/n7606/full/nature17993.html#extended-data

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v534/n7606/full/nature17993.html#supplementary-information

And Genetiker also posted info about their pigmentation SNPs:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/05/05/phenotype-snps-from-ice-age-europe/comment-page-1/


They just check the two big ones. We know they don't have those but it doesn't mean much.

The guy claimed they are black, but most the world lacks those mutations and is still not black or even close.

[Peterski]

They just check the two big ones. We know they don't have those but it doesn't mean much.

It means a lot because these two big ones have the most impact, are the most powerful in terms of effect on skin color.


The guy claimed they are black, but most the world lacks those mutations and is still not black or even close.

East Asians have their own lightening mutations. MENA populations have the same ones as Europeans, but less commonly.


The guy claimed they are black

Somalis and Ethiopians (Horn of Africa), South Indians (Dravidians), Papuans, or native Indonesians - something like this.

Maybe a bit lighter than these groups.

[Poise n Pen]

It means a lot because these two big ones have the most impact, are the most powerful in terms of effect on skin color.



East Asians have their own lightening mutations. MENA populations have the same ones as Europeans, but less commonly.



Somalis and Ethiopians (Horn of Africa), South Indians (Dravidians), Papuans, or native Indonesians - something like this.

Maybe a little bit lighter than these groups.

It doesn't work that way, as I said already.

Blacks and south asians and some other groups have darkening genes.

I haven't seen any test of a european that happens to not have these but there's no black native europeans running around.

At most they will be kinda brown like native americans, who don't have any lightening genes from east asia.

[Poise n Pen]

Villabruna Italy 14,180–13,780 Epigravettian 10/10

That study had even more interesting stuff. R1b AND I y-dnas AND light eyes. In europe 14k years ago. Plus some genes for red hair and green eyes.

[Peterski]

Villabruna was not R1b-M269 though. He was ancestral to African R1b-V88.

Nearly all of Mesolithic Europeans had light eyes so nothing special about it.

[Peterski]

Poise n Pen,

Here is my table with some Y-DNA from prehistoric Europe (I did not include haplogroups which came with Neolithic Farmers - I only included haplogroups which were typical among Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in various parts of Europe; i.e. west of the Ural):

The table is in Polish so I will translate some terms:

Państwo = country
Stanowisko i osobnik = site and specimen (sample)
Źródła = sources
Wiek w latach = age in years ago
Dodatkowe info = additional info (what culture, etc.)

In period 41640-29310 years ago, C1 was dominant in Europe (10 samples, 6 C1 = 60%):

I highlighted R1a and R1b (and I included only samples at least 6000 years old in this table):

https://s10.postimg.io/foqxccuzb/Lista_hg_Y_DNA.png

R1b-V88 - found in Neolithic Iberia - could be a lineage of Paleolithic European origin:

Villabruna Epigravettian hunter was L754, which is downstream of both V88 and M269:
(but his tribe was likely ancestral to V88, which later migrated to Africa, not to M269)

https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/R1b-L754

https://www.yfull.com/arch-4.01/tree/R-L278/

https://s3.postimg.io/pdydvnf1f/Villabruna.png

R1b-V88 could enter North Africa (and later Sub-Saharan Africa) from Southern Europe.

===============================

As for R1a, the oldest currently known sample of R1a1 is from Europe - from Karelia.

See Extended Data Table 1 from Fu et al., "The Genetic History of Ice Age Europe":

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301742169_The_genetic_history_of_Ice_Age_Europe

Karelian R1a is dated to 8800–7950 years BP by Fu 2016: https://s21.postimg.io/4z3cnibiv/Karelian_HG.png

https://s21.postimg.io/4z3cnibiv/Karelian_HG.png

"Ancestral Journeys" dates it to 6850–6000 years BC: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

https://s22.postimg.io/baarhhftt/EHG_samples.png

[Rethel]

In period 41640-29310 years ago,

:picard2:


C1 was dominant in Europe (10 samples, 6 C1 = 60%):

True natives. I1&I2 get out! :laugh:

[Rethel]

How do you know, that this one guy was a farmer in first generation?

[Poise n Pen]

Villabruna was not R1b-M269 though. He was ancestral to African R1b-V88.

Nearly all of Mesolithic Europeans had light eyes so nothing special about it.

Well, what does it matter? This is the kind of thing that really annoys me about people's reactions to these studies. As if you would happen to sequence THE ONE GUY who happens to be the ancestor of the whole of europe. And it's always possible that it did evolve from this version of r1b as well. We don't actually know for sure what is a root and what isn't, it is just guessing too.

Also re: blue eyes of course it matters. Having some weird tat-c y-dna associated with light eyes dones not really help us much. Having modern or closely related y-dna closely associated with light eyes is another story, especially so far back.

We have blue eye genes, and even some red hair and green eye genes, and we have r1b and a bunch of different I y-dna.

This population is way more modern european than even way more recent populations. It is on the right track and it has to be closely related somehow to the current modern europeans. And this is before the ice age even melts!

Also this points out why genetics can be bullshit. I used to hear r1b is just 5-6k years old. Then 8k. Then 10. Now we have them from the fucking ice age. Every time they sequence someone the story totally changes.

[Rolnik szuka zony]

Generally guys, imagine what will be known about aDNA in ten years for example:) I wonder what theory will be official.

[Peterski]

At most they will be kinda brown

Yeah, Paleolithic Western Europeans were probably closer to "nigga" than to "the niggest":

I guess they were an intermediate stage between "nigga" and "nigger" as shown below: :)

http://x3.cdn03.imgwykop.pl/c3201142/comment_dzZykXVff6HTDkDtoc7WwXAU5LtN6HEh.jpg

Of course I'm talking about skin color, not morphology (which was already mostly Caucasoid).

[Peterski]

I used to hear r1b is just 5-6k years old. Then 8k. Then 10.

It was actually the other way around (first 10, then 8, then 5-6).

At first it was claimed to be old, then it turned out to be young.

There are different subclades of R1b, like with any other haplo:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

The ones which are common in Europe today, are very young:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/


y-dna closely associated with light eyes

Eye color is determined by autosomal DNA, not by Y-DNA. :)

[Peterski]

How do you know, that this one guy was a farmer in first generation?

Because he was genetically 100% like hunter-gatherers without Anatolian admixture.

But culturally he was a farmer and he lived in a village full of Anatolian immigrants.

If he married an Anatolian woman then his children were genetically 50/50 mixed.

[Peterski]

Data on hair colors in ancient populations (Bronze Age Steppe = Yamnaya):

https://s9.postimg.org/yzvghsotb/Hair_Colours.png

https://s9.postimg.org/yzvghsotb/Hair_Colours.png

In Mesolithic times, Eastern Europe was lighter-haired:

https://s2.postimg.org/fgs7dfmi1/HG_Hair_Colours.png

https://s2.postimg.org/fgs7dfmi1/HG_Hair_Colours.png

And here data on eye colors in ancient populations:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xe9sgt0PSt6cUQ3cYp14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0HB0/edit#gid=10687736

As you can see Yamnaya did have some blue-eyed guys.

[Rethel]

Generally guys, imagine what will be known about aDNA in ten years for example:)

I was wonder about it 10 years ago, and I am very dissappointing
after these years - should be allready known much more.



I wonder what theory will be official.

Mine.
But anyway, whatever will be, will make fulls
from all present day idiots as last ten years did.

[Rethel]

Yeah, Paleolithic Western Europeans were probably closer to "nigga" than to "the niggest":

I guess they were an intermediate stage between "nigga" and "nigger" as shown below: :)

Of course I'm talking about skin color, not morphology (which was already mostly Caucasoid).

If they were C1, then probably they were something like bengali, or australoid mix with MENA.

[Rolnik szuka zony]

Or like Bushmen:)

Early Paleolihitic Figurine from Menton, southern France
https://s15.postimg.org/9btprzxdn/whg.jpg

[Poise n Pen]

If they were C1, then probably they were something like bengali, or australoid mix with MENA.

The features are pure cromag though. And when analyzed autosomally kostenki 14 is full of european dna not anything exotic.

[Poise n Pen]

It was actually the other way around (first 10, then 8, then 5-6).

At first it was claimed to be old, then it turned out to be young.

There are different subclades of R1b, like with any other haplo:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

The ones which are common in Europe today, are very young:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/



Eye color is determined by autosomal DNA, not by Y-DNA. :)

If you don't even know what associated means you should not be posting let alone constantly spamming.

[Peterski]

when analyzed autosomally kostenki 14 is full of european dna

Not really.

He was similar broadly to Western Eurasians and South Indians, not specifically to Europeans.

Do you have a Gedmatch account ???

If you do, then you can try Kostenki14 with various calculators, his Gedmatch ID is F999936.

[Peterski]

Reconstruction of Kostenki14 (based on skull):

http://donsmaps.com/images31/img_3545kostenkivlad.jpg

[Poise n Pen]

Not really.

He was similar broadly to Western Eurasians and South Indians, not specifically to Europeans.

Do you have a Gedmatch account ???

If you do, then you can try Kostenki14 with various calculators, his Gedmatch ID is F999936.

You can't compare an ancient sample that doesn't have high coverage on a fucking PCA or in GEDMatch :lol:

Are you davidski in disguise?

If you look at the autosomal components then you see 'west asian' (in ancient europe lol) and 'mediterranean' mainly from my recollection. I don't think there was much (any?) HG .

[Poise n Pen]

Reconstruction of Kostenki14 (based on skull):

http://donsmaps.com/images31/img_3545kostenkivlad.jpg

Reconstruction is utter shit. He was a generic looking 'basic white' type, not some fucking australoid. It's obvious from looking at his skull. Probably looked like a generic spaniard 'gracile med' or a sardinian if you have to look at modern populations. And he was not remotely archaic looking.

[Peterski]

Kostenki14 sample does have a high coverage.


Reconstruction is utter shit. He was a generic looking 'basic white' type, not some fucking australoid.

He did look a bit Australoid.

Kostenki14 looked a bit like SS-Oberscharführer Otto Kulessa (born in 1892 in Rastenburg):

http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Database/DatabaseStaff.asp

More photos: http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Staff/Staff.asp?CampStaffID=62&Submit=View

https://s10.postimg.org/uqutyal0n/Kulessa.jpg

^^^ Isn't there something Australoid about him?: :confused:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?191702-Classify-this-WW2-era-German-SS-man

[Peterski]

Are you davidski in disguise?

Nope. :p

[Poise n Pen]

Kostenki14 sample does have a high coverage.



He did look a bit Australoid.

Kostenki14 looked a bit like SS-Oberscharführer Otto Kulessa (born in 1892 in Rastenburg):

http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Database/DatabaseStaff.asp

More photos: http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Staff/Staff.asp?CampStaffID=62&Submit=View

https://s10.postimg.org/uqutyal0n/Kulessa.jpg

^^^ Isn't there something Australoid about him?: :confused:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?191702-Classify-this-WW2-era-German-SS-man

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-J_NLfGy88EI/VFw2SBaMDrI/AAAAAAAAJ2E/fWAAp0yqWJs/s1600/_78804320_78804318.jpg

If you think that you're completely insane.

Aside from the very very 'nordic' jaw and mouth with absolutely zero chance of prognathism like the beast in the reconstruction, and the profile view is incredibly flat/cromag. He is a 100% modern looking european with northern european looks and southern european coloring.

As for being high coverage, bullshit. Ancient dna is NOT high coverage. You are saying it's high coverage for ancient dna, not for modern analysis.

Anyway I give up. It becomes more and more clear you are simply retarded and that is the main problem here.

[Peterski]

It is high coverage.

Ancient samples can be high coverage too (not all of them are, but Kostenki14 is).

BTW face can now be reconstructed just from DNA, even when there is no skull:

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/arti...al.pgen.1006149 (http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1006149)

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/07/25/062950

http://eurogenes.blogspot.de/2016/07/genome-wide-variants-of-eurasian-facial.html

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/arti...al.pgen.1004224 (http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004224)

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/arti...al.pgen.1002932 (http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002932)

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/05...0516-nose-shape (https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0516/190516-nose-shape)

http://www.livescience.com/23188-face-shap...identified.html (http://www.livescience.com/23188-face-shaping-genes-identified.html)

Genes influencing various facial traits have been identified, these among others:

https://s15.postimg.org/opfi4wo17/Cechy_twarzy.png

[Poise n Pen]

http://sciencenordic.com/scandinavians-are-earliest-europeans

""From a genetic point of view he's an European," says Professor Eske Willerslev, Director of the Centre for GeoGenetics at the University of Copenhagen, who was involved in the new study, and adds:

“Actually, he is closer to Danes, Swedes, Finns and Russians than to Frenchmen, Spaniards and Germans”."

[Peterski]

http://sciencenordic.com/scandinavians-are-earliest-europeans

""From a genetic point of view he's an European," says Professor Eske Willerslev, Director of the Centre for GeoGenetics at the University of Copenhagen, who was involved in the new study, and adds:

“Actually, he is closer to Danes, Swedes, Finns and Russians than to Frenchmen, Spaniards and Germans”."

Not just Europeans, but all of modern West Eurasians are similar to Kostenki14:

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/k14ibdext1.png

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/k14ibdext1.png

Compare with Loschbour, which is much more Europe-specific than Kostenki14:

http://s018.radikal.ru/i524/1511/8c/36e36c8180a7.png

http://s018.radikal.ru/i524/1511/8c/36e36c8180a7.png

[Peterski]

I uploaded Kostenki14 to DNA Land (under a fake name "Bill Jenkins"), here is his "Ancestry Report":

https://s9.postimg.io/ng9j494vz/Kostenki_14.png

https://s9.postimg.io/ng9j494vz/Kostenki_14.png

[Peterski]

And here is "Ancestry Report" for Paleolithic Oase1 from Peştera cu Oase (in Romania):

https://s3.postimg.io/4icmrca37/Oase.png

^^^ According to wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peștera_cu_Oase#Oase_1


The authors analyzed DNA from a 37,000-42,000-year-old modern human from Peştera cu Oase, Romania. They found that on the order of six to nine percent of the genome of the Oase individual is derived from Neanderthals, more than any other modern human sequenced to date. Three chromosomal segments of Neanderthal ancestry are over 50 cM in size, indicating that this individual had a Neanderthal ancestor as recently as four to six generations back. The Oase individual does not share more alleles with later Europeans than with East Asians, suggesting that the Oase population did not contribute substantially to later humans in Europe.

[Peterski]

Villabruna hunter:

https://s9.postimg.org/wp1v4mv6n/Villabruna.png

Yamnaya (Lopatino II):

https://s10.postimg.org/7cru39ofd/Yamna_I0443.png

[Peterski]

Villabruna hunter:

https://s9.postimg.org/wp1v4mv6n/Villabruna.png

The reason why today North-Eastern Europeans are more similar to WHG than all other Europeans, is because "pure WHG" population survived for the longest time in North-Eastern Europe.

Kunda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunda_culture) and Narva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva_culture) cultures at the Baltic Sea were ~100% Villabruna-like (WHG) autosomally.

Later Yamnaya-derived Corded Ware people arrived, and mixed with Baltic WHG.

That's why North-East Euro are a mix of Yamnaya + WHG, with little of Neolithic Farmer ancestry.

Trzciniec (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture) was a mix of Corded Ware + WHG, and ancestral to Balto-Slavic people.

ivan yamnayev and giovanni villabruna lol :D

[Poise n Pen]

Not just Europeans, but all of modern West Eurasians are similar to Kostenki14:

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/k14ibdext1.png

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/k14ibdext1.png

Compare with Loschbour, which is much more Europe-specific than Kostenki14:

http://s018.radikal.ru/i524/1511/8c/36e36c8180a7.png

http://s018.radikal.ru/i524/1511/8c/36e36c8180a7.png

Of course it's more europe specific, it comes 30k fucking years later.

You don't really think that is it literally SSA and South asian in the sample I hope. Even if your alleles can be equated directly to your ancestry (which they can't because they just select certain ones and there is drift and selection over time) it's much more valid to say that these groups are influenced by this guy than the other way around. These groups did not even exist yet!

Aside from the coverage issue giving wonky results (you should at the very least discard any low % results) this kind of analysis is completely retarded and useless because you simply can't look at very ancient samples in terms of modern populations and then infer that they were similar to a person in modern times who mixed from these ethnicities. THAT WAS NOT THE CASE. It is people like this who mixed to make up modern populations not the other way around.

You have another comment saying oase is not like modern populations but between them and east asians. WELL NO SHIT. That is what modern populations evolved from. That holds true whether you believe in out of africa crap or not. This just shows the people writing that paper have no idea what they are talking about.

Basically it comes down to you have no idea how any of this works. Just like with davidski, you think that some chart you get from clicking a program means TOTALLY REAL PROOF while in reality it is being wildly misused and the data itself is based on many big assumptions even for the modern populations. When you multiple your assumptions together and multiply that with a huge level of uncertainty what you get is jack shit.

But like I said I think this has played out. You can fantasize what you like but you are off in a fantasy world.

[Peterski]

Of course. Modern people are descended from ancient people, not the other way around. :p For example If Villabruna scores 60% North Slavic, it means that 60% of alleles carried by Villabruna peak in frequency among modern North-Eastern Europeans.

In other words, modern North-Eastern Europeans have the highest % of WHG ancestry.

And this seemed to be counter-intuitive, but no longer does - because Narva culture were pure WHG.

So WHG ancestry indeed survived better in North-East than in North-West Europe.

On the other hand Yamnaya scores about as much North-East as North-West, which means that Yamnaya people contributed equally to ancestry of modern North-West and North-East Europeans (which is confirmed by fact that Norwegians and Lithuanians have similar amounts of Steppe ancestry).

[Rolnik szuka zony]

Don't say bullshit. He HAD very proghnatic jaw.
Look at profile photo
http://static.wixstatic.com/media/11972f_11f44cb4c039443f63b6a29cbe079895.jpg_srz_98 1_736_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/fi1/prehistoric/possibly_Kostenki.jpg

Russian anthropologists in Soviet times clasfied him as equatorial influenced. In this case equatorial means similar to South Indian population (Veddoid / Australoid), not SSA.

[Poise n Pen]

Don't say bullshit. He HAD very proghnatic jaw.
Look at profile photo
http://static.wixstatic.com/media/11972f_11f44cb4c039443f63b6a29cbe079895.jpg_srz_98 1_736_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/fi1/prehistoric/possibly_Kostenki.jpg

Russian anthropologists in Soviet times clasfied him as equatorial influenced. In this case equatorial means similar to South Indian population (Veddoid / Australoid), not SSA.

Ever single skull with teeth looks like that when you position it at an angle ie lay it down.

Look at the teeth themselves. If they were prognathic they would seem to jut forward at 45 degree angle.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YCpqpcUCrAg/UGfGT-NwOtI/AAAAAAAAbeI/OvyaLPTf-Cg/s1600/Kerma+Skull.png

Like this guy.

[Rolnik szuka zony]

You don't know what is proghnatism. It's not teeth alone, it forward projection of mandible, and is some cases whole midface.

http://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/kranioskopia/progi1.jpg
http://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/kranioskopia/prognatyzm2.jpg
http://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/kranioskopia/prognatyzm3.jpg

[Rolnik szuka zony]

Teeth could be vertical but whole mandible is put forward (look at firs example). This is proghnatism. Wrong teeths are kind of alveolar proghnatism (no 9).

[Rolnik szuka zony]

dd

[Poise n Pen]

Eh...it's not an australoid skull, and those skulls are completely different. They classified him as australoid because of measures alone which can be very misleading if you compare old skulls to new. OF COURSE a 37k year old archaic skull is not a perfect match with modern european population :lol: It is heavier and more archaic which is why it can give a false rating (australoid is the most archaic modern skull), but nonmetrically he is obviously european and if you put some flesh on him it will look just like a modern euopean.

And I know what prognathism is. EVERY skull's teeth and mouth area jut out a bit for fuck's sake. Every single one. The question is how much they do so. From your picture not at all, and in prognathic skulls the teeh will seem to jut forward when viewed from the side and the angle of the bone to the midline of the face can be 45 degrees or even more.

His teeth look fully european, maybe a bit of mongoloid shoveling. Nothing like african or australoid teeth in any way. His midface does not jut out much at all, for people with prognathism it is very extreme and obvious.

He's got a wide and heavy jaw and fully developed chin as well. This is nothing like an australoid monkey man, it is only found in europe.

[Rolnik szuka zony]

It is proghnatism. I try to find original Russian paper. Soviet anthropologists calculated the angle for mandible and it was in proghnatic range, similar to Australoid/ Neogroid. It's not my opinion based on photo. Hence the reconstruction's look.

Shape of teeth doesn't have any meaning. It's mostly about relation of mandible to upper face, not teeth.
And how the hell you know teeth were shoveled or not from front view? Only possible way is to look from the bottom.

[Rolnik szuka zony]

. The skull often described by past craniologists as “unique,” “transitional,” “emergent,” “Grimaldian” and “marginal” due to its pseudo-Australoid, pseudo-Andamanese or pseudo-Negroid traits (robusticity, alveolar prognathism combined with protruding nasal bones, wide nose, small braincase, low and narrow face, deep infraglabellar notch and supraorbital tori) is clearly different from Neandertals and falls fully within UP cranial variation (Gerasimova, M. M. “Esche raz o paleoantropologicheskikh nakhodkakh v Kostenkakh.” Etnograficheskoe obozrenie 2 (2010): 26-40). I’m not aware of a study that directly compares K14 with the roughly contemporaneous Hofmeyr skull from South Africa dated at 36,000 YBP and described (Grine et al. 2007) as forming a cluster with UP Europeans to the exclusion of modern Africans (K14 was not included in Grine et al.’s UP sample). But it would be appropriate to compare the two considering that K14 shows a pronounced Sub-Saharan African-related ancestry component (see below).

It’s noteworthy that both skulls are characterized by alveolar prognathism, large nasal breadth (pyriform aperture), deep infraglabellar notch and continuous supraorbital tori – the strongest form of expression of the supraorbital ridge (see below; the Hofmeyr skull is from Grine et al. 2007). K14 is a smaller skull than Hofmeyr, though. This trait makes it look more like modern Africans, while most UP skulls are as large as Hofmeyr. Hofmeyr’s dentition is poorly preserved but it has some Sinodont traits such as large second molars (M2) (Grine et al. 2007, 227-8). K14’s teeth lack incisor shoveling (this likely means that K14 had the ancestral state of EDAR gene) and the upper second molars are large buccolingually but small mesiodistally

[Poise n Pen]

It is proghnatism. I try to find original Russian paper. Soviet anthropologists calculated the angle for mandible and it was in proghnatic range, similar to Australoid/ Neogroid. It's not my opinion based on photo. Hence the reconstruction's look.

Shape of teeth doesn't have any meaning. It's mostly about relation of mandible to upper face, not teeth.
And how the hell you know teeth were shoveled or not from front view? Only possible way is to look from the bottom.

Grimaldi is probably not prognathic either. It doesn't matter what much what they classify it as, they were already completely wrong.

If you want to figure it out you need to have a profile picture with the skull in proper position with a properly put together skull. But it is fairly clear it is not prognathic already.

[Rolnik szuka zony]

Ok. You are resistant to any arguments. As in other topic other guy, if science is not in line with my personal opinion, it's wrong:)

[Poise n Pen]

Ok. You are resistant to any arguments. As in other topic other guy, if science is not in line with my personal opinion, it's valid:)

No, I just understand how archaeology works. When they write up a description it is more art than science, especially since they usually do it while all they have are the pieces apart. They then draw the skull which is usually off to a large degree as well.

The description for cromag 1 was a very short squat skull. In reality that is not the case if you properly reconstruct it.

So it's pretty much useless to go off of what they say which is basically initial opinion that is often contraindicated later. Only the skull, if properly put together, measured and photographed is going to be sure. And even if there is some prognathism, unless it's extreme then it's normal for europe. Just look at some negroid skulls and it's obvious this is nothing like that even from the awkward view of the mouth area.

[Peterski]

Typologist, regarding Kostenki14:


(...) pseudo-Australoid, pseudo-Andamanese or pseudo-Negroid traits (...)

Indeed he carried some alleles which today peak in frequency among Papuans, South Indians and Africans:

https://s4.postimg.org/ic8841xjh/Kostenki14.png

https://s4.postimg.org/ic8841xjh/Kostenki14.png

Kostenki14's IBD sharing with modern populations:

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/k14ibdext1.png

Loschbour's IBD sharing with modern populations:

http://s018.radikal.ru/i524/1511/8c/36e36c8180a7.png

Kostenki14 was "broadly West Eurasian and South Indian", while Loschbour was already "European".

[Peterski]

As I wrote before, in period 41640-29310 years ago, Europe was dominated by men with C1 haplogroup.

Among 10 samples from that period we have 1 x F, 6 x C1, 2 x I, 1 x IJ*. Most of UP European C1 was C1a2.

But Kostenki14 had C1b haplogroup, which is now most common among Australian Aborigines:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130#Distribution

[Rethel]

Native Europeans. (http://1k2ybq3z60lnwp7cs3fp6idy.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Lena-and-Rosie-Pula.jpg)

[Rolnik szuka zony]

Typologist, regarding Kostenki14:

Indeed he carried some alleles which today peak in frequency among Papuans, South Indians and Africans:

https://s4.postimg.org/ic8841xjh/Kostenki14.png

https://s4.postimg.org/ic8841xjh/Kostenki14.png



Thanks. And this is in line with Russian anthropologists description. They also called him rather anomaly as I remember. But properly identified his "southern" traits.

[Grab the Gauge]

Native Europeans. (http://1k2ybq3z60lnwp7cs3fp6idy.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Lena-and-Rosie-Pula.jpg)

We know what "native" Europeans looked like during the Upper Paleolithic, because they left behind self portraits. This is the self portrait of a woman who lived in Dolni Vestonice, Czech Republic, roughly 25,000 years ago.

http://donsmaps.com/images28/dolniivoryfacesm.jpg


http://www.perceptions.couk.com/imgs/Dolni-Brasse-females.jpg

Upper Paleolithic cave portraits from La Marche:

http://www.sciences-fictions-histoires.com/medias/images/20090415humain12.jpg

http://www.donsmaps.com/images33/p1130800marchesm.jpg

http://img.xooimage.com/files61/e/1/6/humain11zl0-23e3e66.jpg


As you can see, they are neither Negroid nor Australoid. They are Caucasoid. Arguing over Kostenki is pointless.

[Bambaryla]

Pointless is giving pictures form central and Western Europe. Kostenki was in southern Russia. And btw genetics crush those drawings. Argue with geneticians who proved that Kostenki was dark skinned. And facially as we see also was non-Caucasoid.
And what about La Brana from Spain?:)

[Poise n Pen]

Pointless is giving pictures form central and Western Europe. Kostenki was in southern Russia. And btw genetics crush those drawings. Argue with geneticians who proved that Kostenki was dark skinned. And facially as we see also was non-Caucasoid.
And what about La Brana from Spain?:)

Yeah, and europeans have 9% native american and saami came from the nile originally.

Deeply stupid people don't understand that you can't look at autosomals of recent people and apply them to ancient genomes but in fact what you really need to do is go the other way around. Why is it so fucking hard for the average peabrain to grasp this?

So this guy is partially the ancestor of australoids (possibly) and several other groups in minor %, but mainly he is similar to the west asian ancestor and ancestor of european hunter gatherers.

La brana is probably partially the ancestor of modern spanish, but only partially and very many of them don't have the genes he lacks for pigment anyway which are only homogeneous in northern europe! Yet they are still not black or south indian looking.

[Bambaryla]

You must face the truth. Black WHG were exterminated by Anatolian swarthy farmers, and then EEFwere partly exterminated and partly pushed back to Sardinia by Yamnayas. So you don't have to be afraid that your Western European ancestry was impurified by Wogish genes:) Thanks Yamna badasses that Whitified Western Europe for you:)

[Grab the Gauge]

Pointless is giving pictures form central and Western Europe. Kostenki was in southern Russia. And btw genetics crush those drawings. Argue with geneticians who proved that Kostenki was dark skinned. And facially as we see also was non-Caucasoid.
And what about La Brana from Spain?:)

Butthurt Middle Earth boys can't handle the fact that the WHGs left behind portraits of themselves and they were Caucasoid. European HGs were Caucasoid with the exception of some Mongoloid (Solutre, Chancelade) and Negroid (Grotte des Enfants) specimens.

[Bambaryla]

No they aren't. WHG were blacks, but luckily only little percent of their genetic heritage are visible today.

This is also WHG self-portait you stinky fat pufta:)
From Mentone in southern France, you moron

https://s15.postimg.org/9btprzxdn/whg.jpg

[Bambaryla]

For stinky fat pig Gtg

A is from UP France
B from UP Spain
C is from South Africa (Bushman art)
https://s21.postimg.org/o2pn2g5br/p0869.jpg

[Rethel]

http://www.sciences-fictions-histoires.com/medias/images/20090415humain12.jpg

Evident prognathism.

http://ocw.nust.na/gutenberg/4/6/8/4/46848/46848-h/images/fig015.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

Basically there are two big light skin genes almost everyone in europe has and definitely 100% of north europeans have. These guys have one of them at 100% levels and the other at 0% levels. They also have 100% 'wrong' mtdna. The same kind of mtdna the udmurts have btw.

Y-dna:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b#R1b1a1a2_.28R-M269.29

Trofimova et al. (2015) found a surprising high frequency of R1b-L23 (Z2105/2103) among the peoples of the Idel-Ural. 21 out of 58 (36.2%) of Burzyansky District Bashkirs, 11 out of 52 (21.2%) of Udmurts, 4 out of 50 (8%) of Komi, 4 out of 59 (6.8%) of Mordvins, 2 out of 53 (3.8%) of Besermyan and 1 out of 43 (2.3%) of Chuvash were R1b-L23 (Z2105/2103),[36] the type of R1b found in the recently analyzed Yamna remains of the Samara Oblast and Orenburg Oblast.[27]

[Grab the Gauge]

Evident prognathism.

http://ocw.nust.na/gutenberg/4/6/8/4/46848/46848-h/images/fig015.jpg

It is an exaggerated caricature. The Le Marche people, like many French UP's had a horse fetish and portrayed themselves as horse-like in addition to their many horse carvings and paintings. Nevertheless, prognathism was sometimes present in the European UP HGs as well as all the later groups. It's also not uncommon in modern Europeans. All of the La Marche paintings are fully Caucasoid. They are also straight haired. The Dolni Vestonice figurine is also fully Caucasoid.

[Longbowman]

Poise n pen brings to mind that American 'not-Jewish' troll.

[Bambaryla]

It is an exaggerated caricature. The Le Marche people, like many French UP's had a horse fetish and portrayed themselves as horse-like in addition to their many horse carvings and paintings. Nevertheless, prognathism was sometimes present in the European UP HGs as well as all the later groups. It's also not uncommon in modern Europeans. All of the La Marche paintings are fully Caucasoid. They are also straight haired. The Dolni Vestonice figurine is also fully Caucasoid.

Oh wait. Horse-like people is new Negroid?:)

[Proto-Shaman]

It amazed me every time I see it,
maybe even more, than those who are so indoctrinate, that never can see it.

:rotfl2

[Rethel]

And what is so funny in that part?

[Proto-Shaman]

And what is so funny in that part?
That Poland is the biggest center of IE-indoctrinated morons.

[Peterski]

Kipchak Håkan,

Original Turkic DNA - Xiongnu / Hunnu samples from Egyin Gol, Duurling Nars, Barköl and Birlik:

Sample: Y-DNA

EG27: C2e-Z1338
EG46: C2-M217
EG47: C2-M217
EG50: C2-M217
EG52: C2-M217
EG53: C2-M217
EG54: C2-M217
EG57: C2e-Z1338
EG58: C2e-Z1338
EG70: C-M130
MNX2: C2-M217

EG88: Q1a2-M346
EG92: Q1a2-M346
EG94: Q1a2-M346
EG112: Q-M242 (maybe Q1b)
Barköl1: Q1a3a-M3
Barköl2: Q1a3a-M3
Barköl3: Q1a3a-M3

EG25A: N1c
EG84.1: N1c
EG19: N1c1-Tat

EG95: O3a2

EG84bis: I2c1

Sample: mtDNA

EG46: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG52: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG54: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG57: D4 (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG70: D4 (Y-DNA: C-M130)
EG84bis: D4o1 (Y-DNA: I2c1)
EG88: D4 (Y-DNA: Q1a2-M346)
EG94: D4 (Y-DNA: Q1a2-M346)
MNX2: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG73: D4
EG74: D4
EG28: D4
EG48: D4
EG32A: D4
EG65: D4
EG77: D4
EG41: D4
EG61: D4
EG63: D4o1
EG35: D4o1
EG36: D4o1
EG37A: D4o1
EG93: D4o1
EG91: D4o1
EG83b: D4o1
EG68: D4o1

EG53: D5/D5a (Y-DNA: C2-M217)

EG47: C5 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG50: C (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG39: C4a1
EG66: C
EG56: C
EG49: C

EG58: F1b (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG59: F1b
EG82: F1b
EG83: F1b

EG25A: G2a (Y-DNA: N1c)
Birlik2: G2

EG84.1: B4b (Y-DNA: N1c)

EG92: M (Y-DNA: Q1a2-M346)
EG90: M

EG95: U2 (Y-DNA: O3a2)

EG27: J1 (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG18A: J1

[Proto-Shaman]

Kipchak Håkan,

Original Turkic DNA - Xiongnu / Hunnu samples from Egyin Gol, Duurling Nars, Barköl and Birlik:

Sample: Y-DNA

EG27: C2e-Z1338
EG46: C2-M217
EG47: C2-M217
EG50: C2-M217
EG52: C2-M217
EG53: C2-M217
EG54: C2-M217
EG57: C2e-Z1338
EG58: C2e-Z1338
EG70: C-M130
MNX2: C2-M217

EG88: Q1a2-M346
EG92: Q1a2-M346
EG94: Q1a2-M346
EG112: Q-M242 (maybe Q1b)
Barköl1: Q1a3a-M3
Barköl2: Q1a3a-M3
Barköl3: Q1a3a-M3

EG25A: N1c
EG84.1: N1c
EG19: N1c1-Tat

EG95: O3a2

EG84bis: I2c1

Sample: mtDNA

EG46: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG52: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG54: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG57: D4 (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG70: D4 (Y-DNA: C-M130)
EG84bis: D4o1 (Y-DNA: I2c1)
EG88: D4 (Y-DNA: Q1a2-M346)
EG94: D4 (Y-DNA: Q1a2-M346)
MNX2: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG73: D4
EG74: D4
EG28: D4
EG48: D4
EG32A: D4
EG65: D4
EG77: D4
EG41: D4
EG61: D4
EG63: D4o1
EG35: D4o1
EG36: D4o1
EG37A: D4o1
EG93: D4o1
EG91: D4o1
EG83b: D4o1
EG68: D4o1

EG53: D5/D5a (Y-DNA: C2-M217)

EG47: C5 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG50: C (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG39: C4a1
EG66: C
EG56: C
EG49: C

EG58: F1b (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG59: F1b
EG82: F1b
EG83: F1b

EG25A: G2a (Y-DNA: N1c)
Birlik2: G2

EG84.1: B4b (Y-DNA: N1c)

EG92: M (Y-DNA: Q1a2-M346)
EG90: M

EG95: U2 (Y-DNA: O3a2)

EG27: J1 (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG18A: J1
Turkic-Xiongnu were those with R1a and R1b.

[Peterski]

Original Turkic Y-DNA was a mix of mostly C, Q and N haplogroups.

[gültekin]

Original Turkic Y-DNA was a mix of mostly C, Q and N haplogroups.
nope

[Proto-Shaman]

Original Turkic Y-DNA was a mix of mostly C,
= Tungusic, Mongolic (+ pockets in central Kazakhstan, Kalmykia, Afghanistan Hazara. tribes of Mongolic origin.)


Q
= Native American, Yeniseian (+ pockets in Turkmenistan and Altai)


and N haplogroups.
= Uralic-Turkic ancestral trait

non of these haplogroups are predominant among Turkic peoples.

[Peterski]

Turkic-Xiongnu were those with R1a and R1b.

No, those were Turkicized Indo-Europeans and mixed race people.

Their mothers were Turkic, that's why they had Mongoloid mtDNA:

Sample: mtDNA:

EG69: D5/D5a (Y-DNA: R1b)
EG73: D4 (Y-DNA: R1a)
EG72: D4 (Y-DNA: R1a)
EG84bis: D4o1 (Y-DNA: I2c1)

Only one sample had both Caucasoid mtDNA and Caucasoid Y-DNA:

MNX3: U2e1 (Y-DNA: R1a1a)

And this MNX3 samples was autosomally 100% Europid according to:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21242/abstract

==============

There were also samples with Caucasoid mtDNA but Mongoloid Y-DNA:

Sample: mtDNA:

EG76: U5a1a
EG78: U5a1a
EG95: U2 (Y-DNA: O3a2)
EG27: J1 (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG18A: J1
Birlik1: H

They were mixed race, with Indo-European mothers and Turkic fathers.

[Proto-Shaman]

No, those were Turkicized Indo-Europeans and mixed race people.

Their mothers were Turkic, that's why they had Mongoloid mtDNA:

Sample: mtDNA:

EG69: D5/D5a (Y-DNA: R1b)
EG73: D4 (Y-DNA: R1a)
EG72: D4 (Y-DNA: R1a)
EG84bis: D4o1 (Y-DNA: I2c1)

Only one sample had both Caucasoid mtDNA and Caucasoid Y-DNA:

MNX3: U2e1 (Y-DNA: R1a1a)

And this MNX3 samples was autosomally 100% Europid according to:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21242/abstract

==============

There were also samples with Caucasoid mtDNA but Mongoloid Y-DNA:

Sample: mtDNA:

EG76: U5a1a
EG78: U5a1a
EG95: U2 (Y-DNA: O3a2)
EG27: J1 (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG18A: J1
Birlik1: H

Indo-European doesn't exist. Its just a nazi-fantasy movie made by European bastards.

[gültekin]

No, those were Turkicized Indo-Europeans and mixed race people.

Their mothers were Turkic, that's why they had Mongoloid mtDNA:

EG73: D4 (Y-DNA: R1a)
EG72: D4 (Y-DNA: R1a)
EG69: D5/D5a (Y-DNA: R1b)

Only one sample had both Caucasoid mtDNA and Caucasoid Y-DNA:

MNX3: U2e1 (Y-DNA: R1a1a)

And this MNX3 samples was autosomally 100% Europid according to:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21242/abstract

==============

There were also samples with Caucasoid mtDNA but Mongoloid Y-DNA:

EG76: U5a1a
EG78: U5a1a
EG95: U2 (Y-DNA: O3a2)
EG27: J1 (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG18A: J1

Birlik1: H
so do you say that indo-euros were such cucks who can be even somethingized by women :D

[Proto-Shaman]

so do you say that indo-euros were such cucks who can be even somethingized by women :D
amk Polonyalılar, hepsi aynı zaten, Türk düşmanı.

[Norse]

http://www.sciences-fictions-histoires.com/medias/images/20090415humain12.jpg

http://www.donsmaps.com/images33/p1130800marchesm.jpg

http://img.xooimage.com/files61/e/1/6/humain11zl0-23e3e66.jpg


As you can see, they are neither Negroid nor Australoid. They are Caucasoid. Arguing over Kostenki is pointless.

Pig people!

Danes really were the first Europeans.

[gültekin]

amk Polonyalılar, hepsi aynı zaten, Türk düşmanı.
no, he is just a kıro pretending to Polish

[Proto-Shaman]

no, he is just a kıro pretending to Polish
doesn't change the fact that Polish people generally behave in the same way.

[gültekin]

doesn't change the fact that Polish people generally behave in the same way.
just a matter of time they will claim even n1b for indo, because of that pazırık n1b's xD

[Proto-Shaman]

just a matter of time they will claim even n1b for indo, because of that pazırık n1b's xD
they are just crazy and obsessed in my eyes. the funny thing is that DNA & anhtropology proves the opposite of their hypocritical claims.

[Peterski]

non of these haplogroups are predominant among Turkic peoples.

Bullshit:

Kazakhs from Kazakhstan - 36% C, 26% G1, 8% N, 2% Q = 72% of C+G1+N+Q

Yakuts from Sahka Republic - 83% N1c, 6% C2 = 89% of N+C

Xinjiang Kazakhs - 59% C, 10% N = 69% of C+N

Iranian Turkmen - 43% Q1a1b1-M25, 3% N = 46% of Q+N

North Altaians - 37% Q1a2, 25% N = 62% of Q+N

Afghan Turkmen - 31% Q1a1b1-M25, 3% Q1a2, 7% N1c2b, 1% C2b-M401 = 42% of Q+N+C

Source: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6852-Finno-Ugric-and-Turkic-Y-DNA-frequencies

================

Y-DNA haplogroup G1:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0122968.g002

[Proto-Shaman]

Bullshit:

Kazakhs - 36% C, 26% G1, 8% N, 2% Q

Xinjiang Kazakhs - 59% C, 10% N

Iranian Turkmen - 43% Q1a1b1-M25, 3% N

North Altaians - 37% Q1a2, 25% N

Yakuts from Sahka Republic - 83% N1c, 6% C2

Afghanistan Turkmen - 31% Q1a1b1-M25, 3% Q1a2, 7% N1c2b, 1% C2b-M401

CHERRY PICKING DATA is not SCIENCE my friend. I am not stupid, I know every result of every study.

[gültekin]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k0MRpwMKBLS4bF16No0NfqF2PSR0vuioikHCCN6drbs/edit?pli=1#gid=1540247964
http://i.hizliresim.com/rQb1rz.png
http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/...3/50.23/116.54
xD

[Rethel]

just a matter of time they will claim even n1b for indo, because of that pazırık n1b's xD

I can assure you, that this will never happen.
We'll never claim FinchuriaN1s and TurgoliaN1s
as IEs. Only as kriepostnych. So... don't worry! :)

[Rethel]

no, he is just a kıro pretending to Polish

No, he is really indeed. And not only Polish, but also a thePole.

[Peterski]

R1 is not predominant among Turkic peoples.

Only Kyrgyz and Bashkirs have high % of R1, but that's because Turkic women preferred IE men:

https://s15.postimg.org/p20ifr823/Original_Turk_vs_PIE.png

Sources:

Aryan Proto-IE: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/printthread.php?t=37860&pp=10&page=2

Ugly Proto-Turk: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/group.php?groupid=662

[Norse]

Who knows what Turks are? They were beaten and absorbed into so many races.

[gültekin]

Who knows what Turks are? They were beaten and absorbed into so many races.
HAR HAR HAR HAR

[Poise n Pen]

No they aren't. WHG were blacks, but luckily only little percent of their genetic heritage are visible today.



This is why I get tired of this crap, such ridiculous nonsense.

[Poise n Pen]

Y-dna:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b#R1b1a1a2_.28R-M269.29

Trofimova et al. (2015) found a surprising high frequency of R1b-L23 (Z2105/2103) among the peoples of the Idel-Ural. 21 out of 58 (36.2%) of Burzyansky District Bashkirs, 11 out of 52 (21.2%) of Udmurts, 4 out of 50 (8%) of Komi, 4 out of 59 (6.8%) of Mordvins, 2 out of 53 (3.8%) of Besermyan and 1 out of 43 (2.3%) of Chuvash were R1b-L23 (Z2105/2103),[36] the type of R1b found in the recently analyzed Yamna remains of the Samara Oblast and Orenburg Oblast.[27]

Yeah, AND they have mtdnas that are exactly the same. They are literally the same people, who went east.

[Rethel]

This is why I get tired of this crap, such ridiculous nonsense.

1. Are you I1 or 2?
2. Are you white racist?

[Poise n Pen]

It is an exaggerated caricature. The Le Marche people, like many French UP's had a horse fetish and portrayed themselves as horse-like in addition to their many horse carvings and paintings. Nevertheless, prognathism was sometimes present in the European UP HGs as well as all the later groups. It's also not uncommon in modern Europeans. All of the La Marche paintings are fully Caucasoid. They are also straight haired. The Dolni Vestonice figurine is also fully Caucasoid.

Almost every one of them has a convex, upturned nose which is a strong paleo-caucasoid feature. The ones who don't have a long nose similar to a baskid one. You don't get more european-specific than that.

[Poise n Pen]

just a matter of time they will claim even n1b for indo, because of that pazırık n1b's xD

Why not have everyone? I-J are indo and so are R1a and R1a, may as well make it the official language of earth.

[Rethel]

Why not have everyone? I-J are indo and so are R1a and R1a, may as well make it the official language of earth.

:confused::picard1::fwhat::confused3::scratch::sho cked::faint2::scared::twitch::suspicious:

[Poise n Pen]

:confused::picard1::fwhat::confused3::scratch::sho cked::faint2::scared::twitch::suspicious:

Semitic language comes from the bronze age. Arabs got it only thousands of years after egyptians and akkadians had it. That's if you believe in any language analysis, which if you believe in PIE crap then you have to.

So J1 is originally indo-european since so is every other J, which makes sense because semitic should be tied with E y-dna not J y-dna.

And every I y-dna culture we know of has no trace of anything but indo-european. The only substrate in German is a single word, the word for sea, which is totally unrelated to anything else.

The only outliers are actually r1b y-dna folk who have some ancient and modern non indo-european societies.

So not only is PIE in yamnaya bullshit but very likely it's the I-J people who were the original indo-european speakers. The I in the north and the J in the south.

[Rethel]

http://www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/facepalm-jewish.jpg

[Norse]

Semitic language comes from the bronze age. Arabs got it only thousands of years after egyptians and akkadians had it. That's if you believe in any language analysis, which if you believe in PIE crap then you have to.

So J1 is originally indo-european since so is every other J, which makes sense because semitic should be tied with E y-dna not J y-dna.

And every I y-dna culture we know of has no trace of anything of indo-european. The only substrate in German is a single word, the word for sea, which is totally unrelated to anything else.

The only outliers are actually r1b y-dna folk who have some ancient and modern non indo-european societies.

So not only is PIE in yamnaya bullshit but very likely it's the I-J people who were the original indo-european speakers. The I in the north and the J in the south.

Preach bro.

Also start thread on your Nordic Jesus theory.

Very good!

[Peterski]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k0MRpwMKBLS4bF16No0NfqF2PSR0vuioikHCCN6drbs/edit?pli=1#gid=1540247964
(...)

Yeah... you only cherry-picked Iron Age and Karasuk samples. :)

How about Bronze Age Steppe samples which are on Gedmatch?:

M690970 / Sintashta-RISE386
M277797 / Sintashta-RISE395
M608028 / Andronovo-RISE505
F999947 / Andronovo-RISE500
F999961 / Andronovo-RISE503
M472767 / Srubnaya-I0232
M217196 / Srubnaya-I0430

======================

When using the same MDLP K23b calculator as you used:

Kit M277797 (Sintashta-RISE395):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 40.43
2 European_Early_Farmers 22.04
3 Caucasian 13.92
4 Ancestral_Altaic 12.82
5 South_Central_Asian 9.75
6 African_Pygmy 0.91
7 Arctic 0.12
8 Amerindian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Icelandic ( ) 10
2 Norwegian_West ( ) 11.52
3 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) 11.85
4 Orcadian ( ) 12.26
5 Norwegian_East ( ) 12.74
6 Swede ( ) 13.21
7 Dane ( ) 14.12
8 CEU ( ) 14.32
9 North_European ( ) 14.37

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.8% Orcadian ( ) + 29.2% Udmurd ( ) @ 5.94
2 71.8% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) + 28.2% Udmurd ( ) @ 6.08
3 77.2% Icelandic ( ) + 22.8% Udmurd ( ) @ 6.47

Kit M217196 (Srubnaya-I0430):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 38.47
2 European_Early_Farmers 19.28
3 South_Central_Asian 16.39
4 Caucasian 15.48
5 Ancestral_Altaic 9.6
6 Amerindian 0.71
7 Subsaharian 0.07

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Icelandic ( ) 13.44
2 Swede_Saami ( ) 14.84
3 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) 14.87
4 Norwegian_East ( ) 15.01
5 Swede ( ) 15.3
6 Norwegian_West ( ) 15.33
7 Dane ( ) 15.38
8 Orcadian ( ) 16.01
9 Dutch ( ) 16.37
10 Irish ( ) 16.54
11 North_European ( ) 16.68

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.3% Icelandic ( ) + 31.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @ 4.71
2 64% Orcadian ( ) + 36% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @ 4.79
3 80.2% Swede ( ) + 19.8% Kalash ( ) @ 4.83
4 66% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) + 34% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @ 5.07
5 63.2% Orcadian ( ) + 36.8% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @ 5.2
6 67.7% Icelandic ( ) + 32.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @ 5.2
7 70.7% Icelandic ( ) + 29.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) @ 5.24
8 80.3% Dane ( ) + 19.7% Kalash ( ) @ 5.43
9 65.4% Norwegian_West ( ) + 34.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) @ 5.47
10 66.6% Orcadian ( ) + 33.4% Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) @ 5.56
11 65.3% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) + 34.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @ 5.57
12 68.4% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) + 31.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) @ 5.65
13 80.9% Norwegian_East ( ) + 19.1% Kalash ( ) @ 5.72
14 67.8% Norwegian_West ( ) + 32.2% Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) @ 5.8
15 64.7% Norwegian_West ( ) + 35.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) @ 5.99

==============

Turkic much, LOL :cool:

[Rethel]

Preach bro.

Also start thread on your Nordic Jesus theory.

Very good!

http://www.sondrakistan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/facepalm-mullahs.jpg

[Norse]

http://www.sondrakistan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/facepalm-mullahs.jpg

If he wasn't Nordic then why does he have blue eyes in all pictures?

You should read Poise N Pen blog, it is very good about Gallieleans and their inability to pronounce guttural sounds in Hebrew. These were Nordic Greek people.

[Rethel]

If he wasn't Nordic then why does he have blue eyes in all pictures?

You should read Poise N Pen blog, it is very good about Gallieleans and their inability to pronounce guttural sounds in Hebrew. These were Nordic Greek people.

http://bulletin.equinoxpub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Jesus-facepalm.jpg

[Peterski]

Kit M828784 (Afanasievo-RISE511):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasevo_culture

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 44.76
2 South_Central_Asian 22.52
3 Ancestral_Altaic 15.95
4 Caucasian 13.47
5 Amerindian 3.16
6 African_Pygmy 0.11
7 Subsaharian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) 17.8
2 Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) 18.55
3 Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) 20.21
4 Tajik_Afghan ( ) 21.62
(...)

Turkic much!: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_language


Language family:

* Indo-European
** Indo-Iranian
*** Iranian
**** Western Iranian
***** Southwestern Iranian
****** Persian
******* Tajik

Pomiri Tajiks = Pamiris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir_languages


The Pamir languages are an areal group of the Eastern Iranian languages

Linguistic classification:

* Indo-European
** Indo-Iranian
*** Iranian
**** Eastern
***** Southeastern
****** Pamir languages

[Peterski]

Kit M766878 (Poltavka-I0440):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poltavka_culture

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 40.75
2 South_Central_Asian 26.47
3 Caucasian 16.5
4 Ancestral_Altaic 14.3
5 Amerindian 1.63
6 Subsaharian 0.19
7 Arctic 0.11
8 Khoisan 0.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) 13.09
2 Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) 13.28
3 Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) 16.59
4 Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) 17.56
5 Tajik_Afghan ( ) 18.25
(...)

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76.5% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 23.5% Saami ( ) @ 8.87
2 77.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 22.9% Saami ( ) @ 8.92
3 75.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 24.7% Saami_Finland ( ) @ 8.92
4 72.5% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 27.5% Udmurd ( ) @ 8.97
5 72.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 27.9% Udmurd ( ) @ 9.09
6 73.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 26.4% Saami_Kola ( ) @ 9.18
7 72.2% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 27.8% Komi ( ) @ 9.27
8 75.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 24.7% Saami_Finland ( ) @ 9.29
9 72.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 27.9% Karelian ( ) @ 9.3
10 75.4% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 24.6% Mari ( ) @ 9.41
(...)

Soooo Tuuuuurrrrrkiiiiccc... LOL xD

[Graham]

It's a good video for anyone who wants to learn about the story on where we are in ancient DNA. Those that haven't kept up. And now the open book with Basal Eurasian being the next ghost population.

[Peterski]

Kit F999942 (Afanasievo-RISE509):

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 41.97
2 South_Central_Asian 26.13
3 Ancestral_Altaic 19.31
4 Caucasian 10.88
5 European_Early_Farmers 1.38
6 African_Pygmy 0.32

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) 19.26
2 Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) 20.6
3 Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) 20.91
(...)

[Peterski]

Time for Yamnaya culture, let's see how much "Turkic" they were:

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Kit F999968 (Yamnaya-RISE548):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 43.05
2 South_Central_Asian 26.39
3 Ancestral_Altaic 16.21
4 Caucasian 10.83
5 European_Early_Farmers 2.8
6 African_Pygmy 0.72

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) 18.56
2 Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) 19.62
3 Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) 20.05
(...)

================

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Kit M343758 (Yamnaya-I0443):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 42.55
2 South_Central_Asian 23.93
3 Caucasian 17.1
4 Ancestral_Altaic 13.6
5 Amerindian 2.14
6 Arctic 0.41
7 Khoisan 0.17
8 Archaic_Human 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) 14.17
2 Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) 14.32
3 Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) 17.6
4 Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) 17.93
5 Tajik_Afghan ( ) 18.14
(...)

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 34.9% Karelian ( ) @ 8.47
2 67.5% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 32.5% Saami_Kola ( ) @ 8.57
3 65.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 34.4% Komi ( ) @ 8.66
4 67.8% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 32.2% Udmurd ( ) @ 8.71
5 67.1% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) + 32.9% Saami ( ) @ 8.76
6 66.9% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 33.1% Vepsa ( ) @ 8.76
7 70.9% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 29.1% Saami_Finland ( ) @ 8.85
8 66.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 33.3% Finn ( ) @ 8.86
9 71.3% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 28.7% Saami_Finland ( ) @ 8.86
10 73.8% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 26.2% Saami ( ) @ 8.88
11 67.8% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 32.2% Udmurd ( ) @ 8.96

[Peterski]

And two more Yamnaya samples:

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Kit M655536 (Yamnaya-I0231):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 41.39
2 South_Central_Asian 24.3
3 Ancestral_Altaic 15.83
4 Caucasian 14.62
5 Amerindian 2.93
6 South_Indian 0.56
7 Arctic 0.19
8 Subsaharian 0.15
9 Archaic_African 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) 15.43
2 Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) 16.15
3 Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) 18.2
4 Tajik_Afghan ( ) 19.96
(...)

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 69.9% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 30.1% Saami ( ) @ 8.9
2 68.9% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 31.1% Saami ( ) @ 9.44
3 68.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 31.3% Saami_Finland ( ) @ 9.53
4 65.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 34.9% Udmurd ( ) @ 9.6
5 66.2% Tatar_Kryashen ( ) + 33.8% Kalash ( ) @ 9.73
6 68.1% Komi ( ) + 31.9% Kalash ( ) @ 9.98
7 59.7% Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) + 40.3% Udmurd ( ) @ 10.21
8 64.1% Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) + 35.9% Udmurd ( ) @ 10.25

===============

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Kit M828815 (Yamnaya-RISE552):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 36.42
2 South_Central_Asian 29.92
3 Ancestral_Altaic 18.89
4 Caucasian 13.19
5 African_Pygmy 0.7
6 Amerindian 0.58
7 Arctic 0.3

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) 15.4
2 Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( ) 16.8
3 Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim ( ) 17.63
(...)

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.6% Komi ( ) + 39.4% Kalash ( ) @ 11.42
2 75.6% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 24.4% Saami ( ) @ 11.54
3 59.4% Udmurd ( ) + 40.6% Brahui ( ) @ 11.6
4 83.4% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( ) + 16.6% Mansi ( ) @ 11.6

[Adolfinus]

Ecxellent article http://sciencenordic.com/history-rewritten-europeans-were-%E2%80%9Cborn%E2%80%9D-bronze-age



The biggest DNA study on ancient people rewrites European history. Modern Europeans were born in the Bronze Age after a large wave of immigration by a nomadic people known as Yamnaya who came from the Russian steppe. It happened in the third millennium BC.

"This is where we begin. We see that a large part of the modern European, genetically start here, "says study leader Eske Willerslev, who is a professor at the Centre for GeoGenetics at the Natural History Museum of Denmark.

The find probably marks the end of more than 100 years of archaeological debate over whether the great cultural upheaval seen in the Bronze Age (2700 BC. to 500 BC.) was driven by ideas or by immigration.

"It is completely ground breaking, and the entire history must now be rewritten into a story of mobility and human expansion," says archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen from Gothenburg University. He led the archaeological part of the study.

By extracting and identifying genetic material from 101 Bronze Age people excavated in Europe and Asia, the scientists were able to see who Bronze Age people were and how they were related.

"This is the largest study ever -- more than double that of all previous studies combined -- and for the first time we can make population studies on fossil genetics," says Assistant Professor Morten E. Allentoft from the Centre for GeoGenetics.

The study has just been published in Nature alongside a similar study, led by Professor David Reich from Harvard Medical School, which maps the DNA of 69 Bronze Age people and supports the same conclusions.
Europeans created by three migrations

The last few years were an intense race between Willerslev and Reich to be the first to map and analyse the European’s ancient genetic material.

They have already shown that modern Europeans share the genetic components of the early hunters but with the arrival of farming culture about 8500 years ago, there was a mixing with new genetic components. This shows up as a genetic difference between southern and northern Europe.

Neolithic people (4000-1700 BC) resemble us more but there is still something missing, and last year it became clear to scientists that there must have been a third wave of migration.

This was a migration to northern Europe, which could explain the genetic differences between northern and southern Europeans today.

This is where the new study comes in.
The final piece of the puzzle

It took a huge effort, but Willerslev and colleagues managed to collect bones from all over Central Europe; from Denmark, Germany, Poland, Romania and Italy, and east to Georgia, Russia, and Lake Baikal in Siberia. The age of the bones spanned five millennia, from 6,000 to 900 BC.
Typical group of Danish burial mounds from the Bronze Age of 3,500-3,100 years ago. Around 50,000 mounds were built during this time period. Burial mounds were typically 3-5 meters high and made of turf. (Photo: Kristian Kristiansen)

"In order to get these 101 samples, we’ve gone through over 600 samples and tested for DNA. All of the samples that could be used have a well-documented archaeological context so we mapped the DNA and dated them," says Allentoft.

The researchers discovered that the early European Bronze Age skeletons had a new genetic component that was not inherited from the early farmers or hunters.

"Whether the sample was taken in Germany, Poland, Denmark or Sweden, we see the same component, and we can show that it comes from the Caucasus," says Allentoft.

The component matches that of the relatively unknown steppe people, the Yamnaya, who were nomads from thousands of kilometres north of the Caucasus between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea.

Reichs and Willerslev's research groups agree that the Yamnaya tribe migrated west into northern Europe around 5,000 years ago.

Previous archaeological findings have shown that changes occurred in northern Europe around the same time.
The Yamnaya are a landmark ancestor

The Yamnaya brought a completely new social structure with them, says Kristiansen.

"Pastoral people are more collective and live in villages, but with [the Yamnaya] there’s a much more individualistic culture, organised in nuclear families. You can see the change in the funeral rituals they introduce, such as the family burial mounds," he says.

The Yamnaya were a nomadic people who brought livestock with them and used horses to pull wagons that carried all their belongings. They burned forests to create grazing land until about 2000 BC when they began to settle down.

"But we see individual households with family farms and not villages," says Kristiansen and points to a fundamental change of Europeans both culturally and genetically.

"They are our main ancestor," he says.

Great upheavals in Asia

Willerslev and colleagues also looked at developments in Asia, which proved to have been much more dramatic than those in Europe.

Here, the first Yamnaya replaced the existing people, and then around 1,000 years later Yamnaya in Central Asia are abruptly replaced by a warlike people called Sintashta.
Yamnaya migration into Northern Europe. (Modified map, original by Richard Potter)

"They are super warriors who march in and almost completely ‘replace’ the Yamnaya people," says Willerslev.

A much larger group of people from Asia put their descendants under pressure around the end of the Bronze Age. The European genetic profiles become so watered down that ultimately they disappear entirely.

"It's so dynamic and surprising that the Central Asian people we now call native actually are a new phenomenon, and until around 2,000 years ago they were European," says Willerslev.

Solves old conundrum about the origins of Indo-European language

And not only that -- the migration of the Yamnaya culture seems to solve the old conundrum about the origins of Indo-European language.

"The mystery is solved -- the Indo-European language is first spread in Europe and then east to Iran and India," said Kristiansen.

The Yamnaya eastern migration also solves the riddle of how the now extinct Indo-European language Tokaisk arose from within China.

The new study strongly supports the “steppe hypothesis”, which claims that the Indo-European languages spread with these steppe people as late as 3,700 to 2,000 BC.
Why did the Yamnaya people migrate?

With large pieces of the puzzle beginning to fall into place, new questions open up -- such as what triggered that Yamnaya culture to migrate in the first place.

Kristiansen explains the current belief is that there was a decrease in farmers about 100 to 200 years before the Yamnaya migrated. One hypothesis is that these communities were hit by illness or crop failure and famine, which provided space for the Yamnaya.

The new studies set the stage for further work, to map genetic material deeper back in time, as well as our more recent history.

http://sciencenordic.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/620x/3map.png.crop_display.jpg

http://sciencenordic.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/620x/1yamnaya_kranium_og_rekonstruktion_0.jpg.crop_disp lay.jpg

[Pahli]

Time for Yamnaya culture, let's see how much "Turkic" they were:

Careful Gültekin doesn't cry to his little harem lover boy Danishmend to get you banned for destroying his ass :laugh:

He also thinks his Mtdna is Estonian :lol:

R.I.P Turkic theory :(

[johen]

Kit M828784 (Afanasievo-RISE511):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasevo_culture

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 44.76
2 South_Central_Asian 22.52
3 Ancestral_Altaic 15.95
4 Caucasian 13.47
5 Amerindian 3.16
6 African_Pygmy 0.11
7 Subsaharian 0.03



So many people in south america are mixed with european and small american indian components, who wants to belong to European group.

How about afanasievo or yamna people, who had 2% of american indian and 15% altai?

Did they want to belong to caucasian/European Hunter gatherer or american Indian/altai?

I think we should find their identity from the answer of this question.

Please don't forget it is a just routine of indo-european or nomad to steal a wife, who had never any concept of being homogeneous.

[Danishmend]

.
Turkic much, LOL :cool:

The results posted by Gültekin are Iron Age Altai samples, and they are closer to modern Turkic populations. Tell me, what does your blabbering have to do with Gültekin's post?





Only Kyrgyz and Bashkirs have high % of R1, but that's because Turkic women preferred IE men:


Haplogroups predate language families, it is extremely moronic to associate a certain haplogroup with a single language family.

Besides, your post doesn't make sense historically. IE tribes were raped, conquered and humiliated by Turkic tribes, not the other way around. Turkic tribes subjugated every IE tribe on their path and dominated the steppes stretching from the shores of Danube to the Altai mountains. I can't see a single fucking IE speaking tribe in the steppe corridor? Can you? Can you name a single IE tribe that subjugated Turkic tribes?
http://i.hizliresim.com/jBb8br.jpg (http://hizliresim.com/jBb8br)




Careful Gültekin doesn't cry to his little harem lover boy Danishmend to get you banned for destroying his ass :laugh:

He also thinks his Mtdna is Estonian :lol:

R.I.P Turkic theory :(

Here comes the butthurt Assyrian J1 slave who thinks he is Sarmatian.

What Turkic theory are you talking about, Assyrian hominid? Yamnaya (supposed PIE culture) was not Turkic, if the theory is true and Yamnaya was PIE then it means your kıro people are only 5-10% Indo-European at most.







Turkic much!: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_language


No one says these cultures were Turkic, why do you go apeshit over nothing? And why do you use the calculators based on modern regional components while running those ancient samples?


This is how those ancient samples look like when ran by new CHG-EHG-WHG based calculators.

(very close to modern Europeans indeed ;))
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 EHG 67.45
2 CHG 15.63
3 WHG 12.1
4 S_Indian 2.41
5 Amerindian 1.22
6 Papuan 0.73
7 Anatolian_Farmers 0.37
8 W_African 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 RISE_baAndrov 10.64
2 Potapovka 17.95
3 MA1 26.05
4 Srubnaya 27.05
5 Scythian_IA 33.61
6 Poltavka 36.33
7 Samara_Eneolithic 36.33
8 Karelia_HG 36.33
9 RISE_baAfan 36.33
10 Yamnaya 36.33
11 RISE_baSin 43.15
12 Tajik_Pomiri 56.64
13 Tatars 57.19
14 Russian 57.57
15 Finnish 57.77
16 Karelia 58.89
17 Ukrainian 59.56
18 Tajik 59.76
19 Estonian 59.84
20 Lithuanian 60.41

[Peterski]

The results posted by Gültekin are Iron Age Altai samples, and they are closer to modern Turkic populations.

And what is supposedly so surprising about this ??? :D

We all know that Turks settled in the Altai region during the Iron Age. But during the Bronze Age the Eurasian Steppe had been dominated by Indo-Europeans, not by Turks - genetic results of Bronze Age samples confirm this, and they do not support your "Turkic Sintashta, Turkic Yamnaya" fantasies...

Gültekin did not prove "Pan-Turanism" to be correct. xD


Haplogroups predate language families

No they do not, they have very recent TMRCAs:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/ = TMRCA ca. 5500 years ago

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/ = TMRCA ca. 6300 years ago


if the theory is true and Yamnaya was PIE then it means your kıro people are only 5-10% Indo-European at most.

And this still makes them more Indo-European than Anataolian Turks are Turkic... xD

Original Proto-Turks were genetically East Asian with some Siberian, racially Mongoloid.

BTW - most of Iranians score at least 10% Indo-European / Steppe in calculators.

[Peterski]

And why do you use the calculators based on modern regional components while running those ancient samples?

I used EXACTLY THE SAME CALCULATOR as Gültekin used while running his Iron Age samples !!! xD

So ask Gültekin why did he use this calculator to prove that someone in the Iron Age was Turkic...

[Danishmend]

And what is supposedly so surprising about this ??? :D

We all know that Turks settled in the Altai region during the Iron Age.

Can you show me a source? All we know is that Turkic languages emerged in an area surrounding the Altai mountains.



genetic results of Bronze Age samples confirm this, and they do not support your "Turkic Sintashta, Turkic Yamnaya" fantasies...

Stop putting words in my mouth you fucking imbecile. When did I say "Turkic Yamnaya", son of a pseudo Indo-European bitch? Do you suffer from schizophrenia?




No they do not, they have very recent TMRCAs:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/

Yes they do.





And this still makes them more Indo-European than Anataolian Turks are Turkic... xD
Turks have 10% East Eurasian admixture on average, which means they have more medieval Central Asian Oghuz (who were predominantly West Eurasian) admixture than most pseudo Indo-Europeans in Europe have Indo-European.





Original Proto-Turks were genetically East Asian with some Siberian, racially Mongoloid.

Only in your wet pseudo Indo-European dreams they were. Even the Yakuts from Northeast Asia have some West Eurasian admixture unlike their Paleo-Siberian neighbours, which means proto-Turks were a mixture of East and West Eurasian from the beginning. The Altai sample from Göktürk period is Eurasian genetically.
http://www.haplogruplar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/autosomal-dna-comparison-of-ancient-altai-j2a-samples-2.png







BTW - most of Iranians score at least 10% Indo-European / Steppe in calculators.
What is funny is that Turks have also more Steppe/Yamnaya-like admixture than many Indo-European speaking pseudo Indo-European populations, including Kurds.

R1b-L23 (found in Yamnaya) is also much more common in Asia Minor than in Europe, not that I care, but it is ironic. Many of your pseudo Indo-Europeans wish you were R1b-L23.
http://arshba.ru/material/maps/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif

[gültekin]

imao, dat mental breakdown

do not support your "Turkic Sintashta, Turkic Yamnaya" fantasies...

Gültekin did not prove "Pan-Turanism" to be correct. xD
HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
i actualy support Mozambicic Yamnaya teori xD
are you for real ?

[Danishmend]

imao, dat mental breakdown
HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
i actualy support Mozambicic Yamnaya teori xD
are you for real ?

"Bokuyla dövüşmek" is what he is doing. He was waiting for an opportunity to masturbate over his Yamnaya fantasies, your post about Iron Age Altai samples was just an excuse. He went apeshit over nothing, no one's even mentioned anything about "Turkic Yamnaya".

[gültekin]

"Bokuyla dövüşmek" is what he is doing. He was waiting for an opportunity to masturbate over his Yamnaya fantasies, your post about Iron Age Altai samples was just an excuse. He went apeshit over nothing, no one's even mentioned anything about "Turkic Yamnaya".
he shows actualy symptoms of schizophrenia, now i feel sad for this poor guy, i shouldn't laugh over him ...
https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Mental-Health-Conditions/Schizophrenia

Hallucinations. These include a person hearing voices, seeing things, or smelling things others can’t perceive. The hallucination is very real to the person experiencing it, and it may be very confusing for a loved one to witness. The voices in the hallucination can be critical or threatening. Voices may involve people that are known or unknown to the person hearing them.

[Rolnik szuka zony]

I think it is best summary of population history of Europe:)


https://youtu.be/zc1I70seg6s

[Peterski]

All we know is that Turkic languages emerged in an area surrounding the Altai mountains.

Proto-Turkic emerged in Mongolia or part of Siberia located to the north of Mongolia.

In other words - it emerged in area surrounding the Altai but only from the east.


R1b-L23 (found in Yamnaya) is also much more common in Asia Minor than in Europe

Indo-Europeans lived in Asia Minor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Anatolian_language

Between the Bronze Age and the Turkish invasion in the 11th century AD, Anatolia was IE.

[Peterski]

Here are some ancient DNA samples from Asia Minor on Gedmach:

Kum4 (from Kumtepe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe)) is Indo-European, and has a lot of Steppe admixture:



Age in years
Period/culture
Gedmatch kit
Sample ID


~8635
Neolithic
Z145547
Tep002


~8350
Neolithic
M411713
I1583


~8350
Neolithic
M754279
I0746


~8350
Neolithic
M936428
I0709


~8350
Neolithic
M897077
I0707


~5826
Copper Age
M091434
I1584


~5150
Early Bronze
M300627
Kum4

[Pennywise]

Proto-Turkic emerged in Mongolia or part of Siberia located to the north of Mongolia.

In other words - it emerged in area surrounding the Altai but only from the east.



Indo-Europeans lived in Asia Minor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Anatolian_language

Between the Bronze Age and the Turkish invasion in the 11th century AD, Anatolia was IE.

I bet you can't even explain what is "proto-Turkic". Let alone giving them an urheimat and a date. You only posting garbage without no source. You and your mentally disabled buttbuddy Rethel are same.

[Danishmend]

Proto-Turkic emerged in Mongolia or part of Siberia located to the north of Mongolia.

In other words - it emerged in area surrounding the Altai but only from the east.
There are a hundred theories about the Turkic Urheimat, you are basing your speculation on your agenda, nothing else. The Turkic Urheimat might be anywhere in the steppe corridor east of the Caspian Sea.
For example, this one is based on the bipartite division of Oghur/Bulgaric and other Turkic branches.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a3/52/47/a35247b1fab1c8bd699d11bce627d940.jpg

Other examples
http://i46.tinypic.com/2echwg6.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/deqvww.jpg




Indo-Europeans lived in Asia Minor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Anatolian_language

Between the Bronze Age and the Turkish invasion in the 11th century AD, Anatolia was IE.

No shit.




Here are some ancient DNA samples from Asia Minor on Gedmach:

Kum4 (from Kumtepe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe)) is Indo-European, and has a lot of Steppe admixture:



Age in years
Period/culture
Gedmatch kit
Sample ID


~8635
Neolithic
Z145547
Tep002


~8350
Neolithic
M411713
I1583


~8350
Neolithic
M754279
I0746


~8350
Neolithic
M936428
I0709


~8350
Neolithic
M897077
I0707


~5826
Copper Age
M091434
I1584


~5150
Early Bronze
M300627
Kum4



Have you ever tried running that sample, there is something wrong with Kum4's results. Damaged dna and inadequate number of SNPs, it seems. The sample comes up as 15% Amerindian.

[Peterski]

Have you ever tried running that sample, there is something wrong with Kum4's results. Damaged dna and inadequate number of SNPs, it seems. The sample comes up as 15% Amerindian.

I just finished running those samples with this calculator:

GedrosiaDNA - Eurasia K14 Neolithic:

https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/Steppe_Migration_Anatolia.png

https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/Steppe_Migration_Anatolia.png

Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe


Around 3700 BC [~5700 years ago] new settlers came to Kumtepe. The people of this new culture, Kumtepe B, built relatively large houses with multiple rooms, sometimes a porch. They also practiced animal husbandry and agriculture. The main domestic animals were goats and sheep, bred not only for meat but for milk and wool as well. They knew lead and bronze along with copper. Shortly after 3000 BC Yassıtepe and Hisarlık (Troy) were colonized probably from Kumtepe.

[Peterski]

The sample comes up as 15% Amerindian.

Due to a lot of ANE admixture, and over 50% Yamnaya admixture.

And already Copper Age Barcin I1584 had 16% of Yamna admixture.

[Rethel]

I bet you can't even explain what is "proto-Turkic". Let alone giving them an urheimat and a date. You only posting garbage without no source. You and your mentally disabled buttbuddy Rethel are same.

And now we know, that you are a Turk.
Additionaly: a lower IQ Turk (as usuall in such cases).

[Peterski]

http://i39.tinypic.com/deqvww.jpg

I agree with this map, this is also where I think that Turkic lands were in 400 BC.

[Peterski]

Steppe Migration to Armenia most likely took place no later than ~6150 ybp (4150 BC):

In GedrosiaDNA Eurasia K14 Neolithic, this sample scores almost 1/5 Yamnaya:

Gedmatch kit M926386 - sample I1631 (Areni-1, Copper Age Armenia):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_cave_complex


The Areni-1 cave complex (Armenian: Արենիի քարանձավ) is a cave in the Areni village of southern Armenia along the Arpa River. In 2010, it was announced that the earliest known shoe was found in the cave.[1] In January 2011, the earliest known winery in the world was announced to have been found.[2] Also in 2011, the discovery of a straw skirt dating to 3900 BC was reported.[3]*

[*straw skirts were also found in Bronze Age Europe and in Xiaohe cemetery in Xinjiang]

Kit M926386

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 25.32
2 Early_European_Farmers 19.11
3 Afanasievo_Yamnaya 19.02
4 SW_Asian 18.81
5 Kalash 14.23
6 SHG_WHG 2.11
7 S_Amerindian 1.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Armenian_BA2 25.1
2 Hungarian_BA5 26.46
3 Armenian_IA 27.23
4 Hungarian_BA3 29.36
5 RISE_baSca 30.02
6 Bell_Beaker_LN5 30.13
7 HungaryGamba_BA2 31.17
8 Corded_Ware_BA4 31.53
9 Armenian_BA3 31.53
10 Hungarian_BA7 31.55
11 Corded_Ware_BA3 31.66
12 Hungarian_BA1 31.7
13 Bell_Beaker_LN1 31.7
14 HungaryGamba_BA1 32.83
15 Bell_Beaker_LN2 32.98
16 Benzigerode_LN1 33.07
17 HungaryGamba_IA 33.15
18 Unetice_BA2 33.96
19 Bell_Beaker_BA1 34.01
20 Karasuk_BA5 34.62

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.2% Armenian_BA2 + 32.8% HungaryGamba_EN2 @ 5.47
2 66.5% Armenian_BA2 + 33.5% HungaryGamba_EN1 @ 5.62
3 51.5% Armenian_BA2 + 48.5% Hungarian_BA5 @ 7.92
4 74.1% Armenian_BA2 + 25.9% Baalberge_MN3 @ 8.07
5 74% Armenian_BA2 + 26% HungaryGamba_CA @ 8.1
6 75.6% Armenian_BA2 + 24.4% Baalberge_MN2 @ 8.25
7 72.6% Armenian_BA2 + 27.4% Baalberge_MN1 @ 8.51
8 76.5% Armenian_BA2 + 23.5% Remedello_BA @ 8.6
9 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% Starcevo_EN @ 8.66
10 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% HungaryGamba_EN @ 8.66
11 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% Iceman @ 8.66
12 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% LBK_EN @ 8.66
13 75.7% Armenian_BA2 + 24.3% Montenegro_BA1 @ 8.67
14 59.3% Armenian_BA2 + 40.7% Stuttgart @ 8.78
15 73.6% Armenian_BA2 + 26.4% HungaryGamba_EN7 @ 8.97
16 66.7% Armenian_BA2 + 33.3% HungaryGamba_EN8 @ 8.98
17 62.9% Hungarian_BA5 + 37.1% Armenian_BA4 @ 9.55
18 70.4% Hungarian_BA5 + 29.6% Afansievo_BA1 @ 10.21
19 65.1% Armenian_BA2 + 34.9% LBK_EN2 @ 10.31
20 56.7% Armenian_BA2 + 43.3% Corded_Ware_BA3 @ 10.33

[Proto-Shaman]

And what is supposedly so surprising about this ??? :D

We all know that Turks settled in the Altai region during the Iron Age. But during the Bronze Age the Eurasian Steppe had been dominated by Indo-Europeans, not by Turks - genetic results of Bronze Age samples confirm this, and they do not support your "Turkic Sintashta, Turkic Yamnaya" fantasies...

Gültekin did not prove "Pan-Turanism" to be correct. xD



No they do not, they have very recent TMRCAs:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/ = TMRCA ca. 5500 years ago

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/ = TMRCA ca. 6300 years ago



And this still makes them more Indo-European than Anataolian Turks are Turkic... xD

Original Proto-Turks were genetically East Asian with some Siberian, racially Mongoloid.

BTW - most of Iranians score at least 10% Indo-European / Steppe in calculators.
Look how Proto-Turks fucked you in the ass even 5000 years ago :D

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/From_Corded_Ware_to_Sintashta.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

Steppe Migration to Armenia most likely took place no later than ~6150 ybp (4150 BC):

In GedrosiaDNA Eurasia K14 Neolithic, this sample scores almost 1/5 Yamnaya:

Gedmatch kit M926386 - sample I1631 (Areni-1, Copper Age Armenia):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_cave_complex



Kit M926386

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 25.32
2 Early_European_Farmers 19.11
3 Afanasievo_Yamnaya 19.02
4 SW_Asian 18.81
5 Kalash 14.23
6 SHG_WHG 2.11
7 S_Amerindian 1.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Armenian_BA2 25.1
2 Hungarian_BA5 26.46
3 Armenian_IA 27.23
4 Hungarian_BA3 29.36
5 RISE_baSca 30.02
6 Bell_Beaker_LN5 30.13
7 HungaryGamba_BA2 31.17
8 Corded_Ware_BA4 31.53
9 Armenian_BA3 31.53
10 Hungarian_BA7 31.55
11 Corded_Ware_BA3 31.66
12 Hungarian_BA1 31.7
13 Bell_Beaker_LN1 31.7
14 HungaryGamba_BA1 32.83
15 Bell_Beaker_LN2 32.98
16 Benzigerode_LN1 33.07
17 HungaryGamba_IA 33.15
18 Unetice_BA2 33.96
19 Bell_Beaker_BA1 34.01
20 Karasuk_BA5 34.62

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.2% Armenian_BA2 + 32.8% HungaryGamba_EN2 @ 5.47
2 66.5% Armenian_BA2 + 33.5% HungaryGamba_EN1 @ 5.62
3 51.5% Armenian_BA2 + 48.5% Hungarian_BA5 @ 7.92
4 74.1% Armenian_BA2 + 25.9% Baalberge_MN3 @ 8.07
5 74% Armenian_BA2 + 26% HungaryGamba_CA @ 8.1
6 75.6% Armenian_BA2 + 24.4% Baalberge_MN2 @ 8.25
7 72.6% Armenian_BA2 + 27.4% Baalberge_MN1 @ 8.51
8 76.5% Armenian_BA2 + 23.5% Remedello_BA @ 8.6
9 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% Starcevo_EN @ 8.66
10 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% HungaryGamba_EN @ 8.66
11 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% Iceman @ 8.66
12 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% LBK_EN @ 8.66
13 75.7% Armenian_BA2 + 24.3% Montenegro_BA1 @ 8.67
14 59.3% Armenian_BA2 + 40.7% Stuttgart @ 8.78
15 73.6% Armenian_BA2 + 26.4% HungaryGamba_EN7 @ 8.97
16 66.7% Armenian_BA2 + 33.3% HungaryGamba_EN8 @ 8.98
17 62.9% Hungarian_BA5 + 37.1% Armenian_BA4 @ 9.55
18 70.4% Hungarian_BA5 + 29.6% Afansievo_BA1 @ 10.21
19 65.1% Armenian_BA2 + 34.9% LBK_EN2 @ 10.31
20 56.7% Armenian_BA2 + 43.3% Corded_Ware_BA3 @ 10.33
cool this explains why Armenians have 50% Turkic DNA :D

[Peterski]

David W. Anthony wrote that Proto-Anatolian speakers came from the Steppe to the Balkans ca. 4200-4000 BC. Those who came to Kumtepe ca. 3700 BC were the same wave of IE migrants who had settled in the Balkans before. This explains why Kum4 had no any SW Asian admixture*, but only Steppe and Neolithic Anatolian (European/Balkan) - they mixed with farmers in the Balkans, then moved to Anatolia.

Yamnaya admixture in Areni-1 is harder to explain.

But they didn't have as much of it as Kumtepe B.

=========================

*SW Asian = more or less Levantine.

[Peterski]

I bet you can't even explain what is "proto-Turkic". Let alone giving them an urheimat and a date.

I can. I think that these were Proto-Turks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingling


The Dingling (Chinese: 丁零) were an ancient people mentioned in Chinese historiography in the context of the 1st century BCE. They are assumed to have been an early Proto-Turkic-speaking people.[1] They originally lived on the bank of the Lena River in the area west of Lake Baikal, gradually moving southward to Mongolia and northern China. They were subsequently part of the Xiongnu Empire,[2][3] and thus presumably related to the invaders known as Huns in the west.[4] Around the 3rd century they were assimilated into the Tiele,[5] also named Gaoche (高車) or Chile (敕勒), who gradually expanded westward into Central Asia, expelled from Mongolia by the Rouran and establishing a state Turpan in the 5th century. The Tiele were a collection of Early Turkic tribes.

[1] Hyun Jin Kim: The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe. Cambridge University Press, 2013. pp.175-176. Victor H. Mair: Contact And Exchange in the Ancient World. University of Hawaii Press, 2006. p.140.

And their descendants were these people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiele_people

[Proto-Shaman]

I can. I think that these were Proto-Turks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingling



And their descendants were these people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiele_people
The problem is that these tribes are Scythian. So you are contradicting your own theory.

[Danishmend]

I can. I think that these were Proto-Turks:
Speculations. There is no proof whatsoever. The Oghur-speaking branch of the Turks did not teleport themselves to Volga-Ural for sure, there must have been some connection between the Oghur and other Turkic branches, too bad that the Oghur branch ruins everything. :cry2


I agree with this map, this is also where I think that Turkic lands were in 400 BC.
Well, your opinion on this matter means nothing as you are not a linguist nor an archeologist. You are just a biased member (just like me) who lacks basic historical knowledge (IE tribes conquering Turkic tribes LEL).


Due to a lot of ANE admixture, and over 50% Yamnaya admixture.

And already Copper Age Barcin I1584 had 16% of Yamna admixture.

Kum4 might be half CHG half Anatolia_Neolithic too, it would make sense (bronze age CHG expansion). CHG has a good chunk of ANE.

Kum4
puntDNAL K12 Modern

Population
Sub-Saharan -
Amerindian 13.91
South_Asian -
Near_East -
Siberian -
European_HG -
Caucasus_HG 34.56
South_African_HG -
Anatolian_NF 51.54
East_Asian -
Oceanian -
Beringian -

[Proto-Shaman]

Danishmend do not provoke me, if you have arguments (which I think you don't) then discuss it! bedelini ödersin...

[Danishmend]

Danishmend do not provoke me, if you have arguments (which I think you don't) then discuss it!
The purpose of thumbs down button is to imply that you strongly disagree with the user.



bedelini ödersin...
Ne yapacaksın?

[Pennywise]

I can. I think that these were Proto-Turks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingling



And their descendants were these people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiele_people

"Proto-Turk" is a loosely linguistic concept and a term, which is in itself disputed. You just googled it and found a totally irrelevant content with the subject and your arguments.

[Peterski]

Not only Gedmatch shows that Kum4 had Steppe admixture.

This sample was published in 2 scientific publications as well:

1) Omrak et al. 2016 - http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2815%2901516-X

2) Hofmanová et al. 2016 - http://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886.full

Graph from Hofmanová - yellow is Yamnaya admixture, look at Kumtepe4 and 6:

https://s21.postimg.org/e1qtmhsp3/Kumtepe_Step.png

See also pages 8-9 and map from Fig. 2. from this paper by David W. Anthony:

http://www.jolr.ru/files/(104)jlr2013-9(1-21).pdf

https://s14.postimg.org/ir6sfat0h/Suworo_Migracja.png

They surely did not expand into Central Anatolia immediately after that.

But Kumtepe is located near the Dardanelles, very close to the Balkans:

http://shissem.com/kumtepe.jpg

And settlers of Kumtepe B culture later established the city-state of Troy. So it means, that Trojans were Indo-European (probably part of Anatolian branch of IE). This is also in agreement with the fact, that Paris and Priam are considered by linguists to be Indo-European given names.

I guess that their language got extinct after the destruction of Troy by Greeks:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFWOzENwX3M

[Danishmend]

Not only Gedmatch shows that Kum4 had Steppe admixture.
You are a member of Anthrogenica as far as I know (Tomenable?), you must have read this thread. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7426-Earliest-steppe-migration-to-Anatolia-Or-not

Although I support the steppe/Yamnaya theory I'm skeptical about this sample's results and I have reasons to be so. Kum4's results are weird, every calculator says something else. On some calculators Kum4 comes up as 1/2 CHG 1/2 Anatolia_Neolithic whereas on others some Steppe-related components appear. The sample even scores 10% Pygmy on one of the calculators.

[Proto-Shaman]

Not only Gedmatch shows that Kum4 had Steppe admixture.

This sample was published in 2 scientific publications as well:

1) Omrak et al. 2016 - http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2815%2901516-X

2) Hofmanová et al. 2016 - http://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886.full

Graph from Hofmanová - yellow is Yamnaya admixture, look at Kumtepe4 and 6:

https://s21.postimg.org/e1qtmhsp3/Kumtepe_Step.png

See also pages 8-9 and map from Fig. 2. from this paper by David W. Anthony:

http://www.jolr.ru/files/(104)jlr2013-9(1-21).pdf

https://s14.postimg.org/ir6sfat0h/Suworo_Migracja.png

They surely did not expand into Central Anatolia immediately after that.

But Kumtepe is located near the Dardanelles, very close to the Balkans:

http://shissem.com/kumtepe.jpg

And settlers of Kumtepe B culture later established the city-state of Troy. So it means, that Trojans were Indo-European (probably part of Anatolian branch of IE). This is also in agreement with the fact, that Paris and Priam are considered by linguists to be Indo-European given names.

I guess that their language got extinct after the destruction of Troy by Greeks:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFWOzENwX3M
Troyans are 100% non-Indo-European. They are most likely proto-Turkic and had ties with Pelasgians and Franks.

[Proto-Shaman]

The purpose of thumbs down button is to imply that you strongly disagree with the user.
Instead of arguing?


Ne yapacaksın?
fena bumplarim seni ;)

[sevruk]

Don't say bullshit. He HAD very proghnatic jaw.
Look at profile photo
http://static.wixstatic.com/media/11972f_11f44cb4c039443f63b6a29cbe079895.jpg_srz_98 1_736_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/fi1/prehistoric/possibly_Kostenki.jpg

Russian anthropologists in Soviet times clasfied him as equatorial influenced. In this case equatorial means similar to South Indian population (Veddoid / Australoid), not SSA.

He was still recognized as a Caucasоid
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/?page_id=26661