Do you consider the Maltese to be Arabs?

[Sikeliot]

Technically, they are. They speak Arabic.

Maltese is a dialect of Maghrebi Arabic, which originated in Sicily under Arab rule but is only spoken in Malta and among very old people on Pantelleria today.

[Coolguy1]

Not really, I guess I consider them their own entity. I dont believe they espouse an Arab identity either

[Sikeliot]

Not really, I guess I consider them their own entity. I dont believe they espouse an Arab identity either

They're basically Arabic-speaking Sicilians. But because they speak Arabic, they're Arab.

[MsSPF]

This is not really Arabic, it's an hybrid language : Italian-Sicilian/Maghrebi Arabic mix. Maltese language is considered to be a Semitic language but it's not an Arabic dialect. Close to but too much Italian/Sicilian in their language.

[Dandelion]

Maltese is like Sicilo-Arabic with a Romance vocabulary for 70% as a result of isolation from Arabic speakers. Reminds me of English in that regard (which is a Germanic language with mostly non-Germanic vocabulary and has creole-like features like a simple grammar and a vocabulary from another language group, even though its creole status has never been proven and its irregularities are very un-creole).

[crazyladybutterfly]

to be an arab ONE MUST BE FROM ARABIAN PENINSULA and genetically be from this region. they dont. they only have neolithic farmer ancestry and at best some berber blood which doesnt make them arab at all .

[Neon Knight]

http://skipping4schools.co.uk/userfile/maltesers01.jpg

[Coolguy1]

Do Maltese have more mena influence than Sicilians?

[Hoxhaism]

http://skipping4schools.co.uk/userfile/maltesers01.jpg

Well, the maltese are a whole new level of brown..

[Sacrificed Ram]

Race or Language? Or both?

[Cristiano viejo]

Technically, they are. They speak Arabic.

Maltese is a dialect of Maghrebi Arabic, which originated in Sicily under Arab rule but is only spoken in Malta and among very old people on Pantelleria today.

This logic makes zero sense. Mexicans speak Spanish but they are not Spanish. Brazilians speak Portuguese but they are not Portuguese. Yourself speak English but you are not English.

[Sikeliot]

Do Maltese have more mena influence than Sicilians?

Not really, no. They are transplants from Agrigento, Caltanissetta, and Palermo:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Map_of_region_of_Sicily,_Italy,_with_provinces-en.svg/2000px-Map_of_region_of_Sicily,_Italy,_with_provinces-en.svg.png

[Bell Beaker]

http://skipping4schools.co.uk/userfile/maltesers01.jpg

That is so delicious.....

[Leo Iscariot]

Not Arabs proper, but like a subtype of Arabs.

[Sikeliot]

This logic makes zero sense. Mexicans speak Spanish but they are not Spanish. Brazilians speak Portuguese but they are not Portuguese. Yourself speak English but you are not English.

But Arab means one who speaks Arabic natively, the others do not mean that.

[Neon Knight]

That is so delicious.....They stick to your teeth though. Terrible for dental health.

[Cristiano viejo]

But Arab means one who speaks Arabic natively, the others do not mean that.

Hispanic is everyone who speaks Spanish, according many people...

[Jehan]

No.
I was in Malta some years ago and they don't looks like arabs at all.
For the language it's souns like a latin language with some foreign admixure.

[EL_BARBARO]

Technically, they are. They speak Arabic.

Maltese is a dialect of Maghrebi Arabic, which originated in Sicily under Arab rule but is only spoken in Malta and among very old people on Pantelleria today.


Does everybody whose mother language is arabic or a language related to arabic have to be considered as an Arab?

An arabic-speaking Algerian, e.g., must be considered as an Arab, independently of his origins?

[crazyladybutterfly]

Does everybody whose mother language is arabic or a language related to arabic have to be considered as an Arab?

An arabic-speaking Algerian, e.g., must be considered as an Arab, independently of his origins?

they re all "arabs" for dumb people

[EL_BARBARO]

they re all "arabs" for dumb people


dumb or with lack of awareness about.


It's the same silliness that to call "hispanic" in USA all people whose mother language is spanish.

[Thunder_shock]

No.
I was in Malta some years ago and they don't looks like arabs at all.
For the language it's souns like a latin language with some foreign admixure.
You don't have to look like one to be one. Arab is a linguistic based identity. People from Sudan have in terms of features less in common with Middle Easterners than the Sardinians do, but they're still considered Arab.

[Percivalle]

Not really, no. They are transplants from Agrigento, Caltanissetta, and Palermo:

Not all the Maltese descend from these transplants. In Malta there are many surnames who are non-existent in Sicily and in the rest of Italy.


But Arab means one who speaks Arabic natively, the others do not mean that.

If Maltese are transplants from Sicily, Arabic is clearly not their native language.

[Roy]

Their language is not Arab, just Semitic first and foremost. They're European too so it makes no sense.

[EL_BARBARO]

That is, Arab now is a concept based on linguistics.

Aha.

[Sikeliot]

Not all the Maltese descend from these transplants. In Malta there are many surnames who are non-existent in Sicily and in the rest of Italy.

They used to be present in Sicily but the entire families were transplanted. Which surnames do you speak of? Most Maltese surnames -- Vella, Spiteri, Farruggia, Grech, etc. -- are Sicilian or have equivalents there.




If Maltese are transplants from Sicily, Arabic is clearly not their native language.

Maltese is not called "Sicilian Arabic" for no reason. It originated in Sicily and got transplanted in Malta.

[Percivalle]

They used to be present in Sicily but the entire families were transplanted. Which surnames do you speak of? Most Maltese surnames -- Vella, Spiteri, Farruggia, Grech, etc. -- are Sicilian or have equivalents there.

Surnames like Fenech, Zammit, Micallef, Abdilla, Asciak, Bajada...



Maltese is not called "Sicilian Arabic" for no reason. It originated in Sicily and got transplanted in Malta.

It's like saying that everyone who speaks now American English, that originated in the USA, is of British stock.

[Sikeliot]

Surnames like Fenech, Zammit, Micallef, Abdilla, Asciak, Bajada...

They once did exist in Sicily (when it was under Arab rule) but no more.

[Olly]

If they are not Arabs then neither are Levantines. Since Levantine Arabic, especially the Lebanese variety, has more Aramaic influence than Maltese has Sicilian/Italian.

[Percivalle]

They once did exist in Sicily (when it was under Arab rule) but no more.

Are you sure about this? Most likely they are more recent and have another origin.

[Berahthraban]

You don't have to look like one to be one. Arab is a linguistic based identity. People from Sudan have in terms of features less in common with Middle Easterners than the Sardinians do, but they're still considered Arab.

Nope, it is an ethnic identity too. Maltese and Yemenis are Semitic in the way Swedes and Indians are Indo-European.

[Tacitus]

If they are not Arabs then neither are Levantines. Since Levantine Arabic, especially the Lebanese variety, has more Aramaic influence than Maltese has Sicilian/Italian.

False. The majority of words in Maltese are of Italian/Sicilian origin, and has a lower rate of Quranic Arabic roots than Lebanese Arabic:

An analysis of the etymology of the 41,000 words in Aquilina's Maltese-English Dictionary shows that 32.41% are of Arabic origin, 52.46% are from Sicilian and Italian, and 6.12% are from English.


Żammit (2000) found that 40% of a sample of 1,820 Quranic Arabic roots were found in Maltese, a lower percentage than found in Moroccan (58%) and Lebanese Arabic (72%).[40]

[Thunder_shock]

Nope, it is an ethnic identity too. Maltese and Yemenis are Semitic in the way Swedes and Indians are Indo-European.
So you believe that Sudanese and Saudis are off the same ethnic stock?

[Myanthropologies]

Technically speaking they're as arab as syrians are, but they're not interegrated to the Arab world at all. I still think they share more with Italians than with anyone else, but they definitely are closer to arabs than to most Europeans.

[Bezprym]

Technically, they are. They speak Arabic.

That's the place where I stopped reading further.

[Seya]

You don't have to look like one to be one. Arab is a linguistic based identity. People from Sudan have in terms of features less in common with Middle Easterners than the Sardinians do, but they're still considered Arab.

this is true! to be an Arab today means mostly to be an Arab speaker. people from North Sudan consider themselves of being Arabs although they are black (or some hamitic-black mix but definitely not Arabs).

[Numidia]

to be an arab ONE MUST BE FROM ARABIAN PENINSULA and genetically be from this region. they dont. they only have neolithic farmer ancestry and at best some berber blood which doesnt make them arab at all .

the people of arabian peninsula are immigrants or arabized bedouin they are not arab racially because arab has never been a race
arabs were some tribes living in south west arabia before islam. It is know that they are ancestors are abraham and hajar

[LoLeL]

No. The same reason why I don't consider French/English-speaking Africans as French/British. Plus, Maltese people are just classified as a Semitic group not Arab.

[ioan assen]

its depends in what sense are they Arab:
linguistically: yes, the base/core of the language is Arabic, I guess from that point of view they are as Arabic as the English are German
culturally: definitely NOT, they represent everything the Arabs do not; they helped Western Europe in their fight against the Turks, who themselves were very much Arabic influenced, culturally Maltese are everything BUT Arabs, although the architecture of their houses may beg to differ
genetically: NOT, some influence cant be ruled out as the islands aren't big and practically anyone that came and stayed has left their mark but they seem most similar to Southern Italians

[Bobby Martnen]

If they are not Arabs then neither are Levantines. Since Levantine Arabic, especially the Lebanese variety, has more Aramaic influence than Maltese has Sicilian/Italian.

Maronites are White, Levantine Muslims are not.

[Bobby Martnen]

Nope, it is an ethnic identity too. Maltese and Yemenis are Semitic in the way Swedes and Indians are Indo-European.

The Maltese language is partially Semitic, but that's it.

[oszkar07]

You only have to look at them to see the influence , also as evidenced in their language.

They are not Arabs in terms of culture and identity but I would say genetically they have Arab lines and old linguistic /cultural influences.
So no not really but on the other hand Yes.

[wvwvw]

Only ignorant people they’d consider them Arabs, they are a sub group of Sicilians.

[Porn Master]

wvwvw is an arab

[wvwvw]

You only have to look at them to see the influence , also as evidenced in their language.

They are not Arabs in terms of culture and identity but I would say genetically they have Arab lines and old linguistic /cultural influences.
So no not really but on the other hand Yes.

In terms of culture they are not arabic. They are Catholics and have been influenced a great deal by Western Europe. In terms of genetics they are similar to Sicilians.

The Knights of St. John

During the rule of the Knights of St. John (also known as the Knights of Malta), the population of Malta increased significantly, from around 25,000 in 1535 to over 54,000 in 1632. One of the primary reasons was an improvement in health and welfare, but also immigration from Western Europe.
This period, under the rule of the Knights of St. John, is often referred to as the Golden Age for Malta, considering the flourishing of Maltese culture with the architectural and artistic embellishment witnessed during the Knights’ rule. The various advances in overall health, education and wealth of the Maltese are also an important part of this perception of Malta’s Golden Age.

The Knights introduced Renaissance and Baroque architecture in Maltese towns and villages, which is still evident in many places of interest, most notably the capital city Valletta and the Valletta Grand Harbour. In education, the Knights laid the foundation of the present-day University of Malta, which as a result is one of the oldest extant universities in Europe.
In 1798, Malta fell under French rule after the Knights surrendered Malta to Napoleon Bonaparte’s forces. At that time, the population of Malta was recorded being at 114,000.

Malta Under French rule

Although the period under French rule was rather short (1798-1800), the impact on Maltese culture was significant. Some French customs and expressions were introduced into every day Maltese language: Words such as bonġu (“good day”) and bonswa (“good evening”) are still used today. Malta was given a Constitution within six days by Napoleon, slavery was abolished, a secondary school system established, the university system was revised almost completely and the legal system of Malta was enhanced by a new Civil Code of law.
French rule did not only bring improvements to Malta and its people, however. Maltese churches were ransacked, being robbed of gold, silver and precious art, which sparked an uprising that ended in the execution of a number of Maltese patriots.

The British in Malta

Maltese culture, language and politics underwent radical changes under British rule, from 1800 to 1964. The addition of Malta to the British Empire was a voluntary request made by the Maltese people in an attempt to rid the Maltese islands of the French. Its strategic location in the centre of the Mediterranean made Malta an excellent station for British forces, whilst the opening of the Suez Canal further improved the importance of Malta as a supply station and naval base.
While British rule ended in 1964, its traces and influences in Maltese culture are still visible. Maltese versions of English words are often used in more formal language, while the more wealthy families often use English as the primary language used in the household and in some instances children are brought up without being taught Maltese.
In material form, many remnants of British rule remain, with the most simple examples being mail collection boxes and phone boxes having been left in their original placements.

[oszkar07]

In terms of culture they are not arabic. They are Catholics and have been influenced a great deal by Western Europe.

The Knights of St. John

During the rule of the Knights of St. John (also known as the Knights of Malta), the population of Malta increased significantly, from around 25,000 in 1535 to over 54,000 in 1632. One of the primary reasons was an improvement in health and welfare, but also immigration from Western Europe.
This period, under the rule of the Knights of St. John, is often referred to as the Golden Age for Malta, considering the flourishing of Maltese culture with the architectural and artistic embellishment witnessed during the Knights’ rule. The various advances in overall health, education and wealth of the Maltese are also an important part of this perception of Malta’s Golden Age.

The Knights introduced Renaissance and Baroque architecture in Maltese towns and villages, which is still evident in many places of interest, most notably the capital city Valletta and the Valletta Grand Harbour. In education, the Knights laid the foundation of the present-day University of Malta, which as a result is one of the oldest extant universities in Europe.
In 1798, Malta fell under French rule after the Knights surrendered Malta to Napoleon Bonaparte’s forces. At that time, the population of Malta was recorded being at 114,000.

Malta Under French rule

Although the period under French rule was rather short (1798-1800), the impact on Maltese culture was significant. Some French customs and expressions were introduced into every day Maltese language: Words such as bonġu (“good day”) and bonswa (“good evening”) are still used today. Malta was given a Constitution within six days by Napoleon, slavery was abolished, a secondary school system established, the university system was revised almost completely and the legal system of Malta was enhanced by a new Civil Code of law.
French rule did not only bring improvements to Malta and its people, however. Maltese churches were ransacked, being robbed of gold, silver and precious art, which sparked an uprising that ended in the execution of a number of Maltese patriots.

The British in Malta

Maltese culture, language and politics underwent radical changes under British rule, from 1800 to 1964. The addition of Malta to the British Empire was a voluntary request made by the Maltese people in an attempt to rid the Maltese islands of the French. Its strategic location in the centre of the Mediterranean made Malta an excellent station for British forces, whilst the opening of the Suez Canal further improved the importance of Malta as a supply station and naval base.
While British rule ended in 1964, its traces and influences in Maltese culture are still visible. Maltese versions of English words are often used in more formal language, while the more wealthy families often use English as the primary language used in the household and in some instances children are brought up without being taught Maltese.
In material form, many remnants of British rule remain, with the most simple examples being mail collection boxes and phone boxes having been left in their original placements.

I said that by culture and identity they are not Arabs.
But compared to any other Europeans they are most likely the closest to Arabs.
Many can pass as Levantines.

[Teucer]

They're basically Arabic-speaking Sicilians. But because they speak Arabic, they're Arab.

That's a bit hypocritical for you to say since you have said before that you don't consider Greek Cypriots to be European because of their genetics, despite their speaking a European language which is arguably closer to Ancient Greek than modern Koine.

Why do you apply different standards to different people?

[Bobby Martnen]

That's a bit hypocritical for you to say since you have said before that you don't consider Greek Cypriots to be European because of their genetics, despite their speaking a European language which is arguably closer to Ancient Greek than modern Koine.

Why do you apply different standards to different people?

And Greek Cypriots are about 1/4-1/3 mainland Greek genetically

[Teucer]

And Greek Cypriots are about 1/4-1/3 mainland Greek genetically

Asked Sikeliot to reply to my question three times and still no reply...

[Bobby Martnen]

Asked Sikeliot to reply to my question three times and still no reply...

I don't think he's on the forum right now - I'm one of the few Apricians who pretty much spends my whole day here

[Teucer]

I don't think he's on the forum right now - I'm one of the few Apricians who pretty much spends my whole day here

I asked yesterday and since he has started numerous threads and even asked me to vote in a poll

[Bobby Martnen]

I asked yesterday and since he has started numerous threads and even asked me to vote in a poll

I'm not sure then

[Tauromachos]

Nope, Maltese

[Kivan]

Nope.

[RenaRyuguu]

yes because I assume they'd score a quarter Arab but that's just my opinion on it

[Phenix]

If you had studied the subject profoundly, you would knew Arabs are an endangered sub-specie of unfortunately two males, me and Toppo.


This is not really Arabic, it's an hybrid language : Italian-Sicilian/Maghrebi Arabic mix. Maltese language is considered to be a Semitic language but it's not an Arabic dialect. Close to but too much Italian/Sicilian in their language.

It streams from Tunisian dialect, but with much fluctuations over centuries it became a language apart, an Arabic language nonetheless.

[happycow]

Sikeliot's spirit lives on. :angel: